When I read McConnell's claim that "American pride was at its lowest point in 20 years", I was skeptical. So I googled it (https://news.gallup.com/poll/312644/national-pride-falls-record-low.aspx). Turns out he's right about the measure of American pride. Gallup's poll shows that pride in America was remarkably steady from 2000 through …
When I read McConnell's claim that "American pride was at its lowest point in 20 years", I was skeptical. So I googled it (https://news.gallup.com/poll/312644/national-pride-falls-record-low.aspx). Turns out he's right about the measure of American pride. Gallup's poll shows that pride in America was remarkably steady from 2000 through 2016 - hovering around 80-85% year after year. Until Trump took office. Then national pride fell 20 points in 3 years. I wonder why?
There are days when I am grateful for the TFG era, for forcing our hidden caste system into bright light. I and so many other privileged white people could begin to understand what we did not know. Much of it was not taught in the Virginia schools where I went to high school, especially anything about oppression of any non white culture. I have been an adult for a long time and certainly could have found out about these things. But I was “busy” believing voting rights acts, and months celebrating women, or various cultures had righted the wrongs. But once you know, you know. I believe there can be correction and healing AND patriotism, coexisting. It will involve pain, discomfort and sacrifice. The essential tonic is knowledge, coming to us via many dedicated historians and delightful younger generation sources like Amanda Gorman. My thanks to every one of you.
Yes, while it's painful (and embarrassing) to admit that Trump had to be elected for me to get all the way to anti-racism, his election was a powerful goad and a deep recalibration of my assumptions about the people of this country.
I find myself in a similar boat, although I had started fighting this battle in earnest after Michael Brown was murdered in Ferguson, MO by law enforcement. I had to really stretch my ways of thinking about race and law enforcement.
**In case no one knows, retired cop, use of force trainer and hostage negotiator, living in an almost entirely white region of Oregon.
The hill you had to climb was so much steeper than mine; you have my admiration. I do not mean that you started out as more racist than me (than I? I can never keep it straight), but that the cultures within which you were and are operating may have been more likely to give cover to implicit (and explicit) bias. Good for you for digging deep. We all have so much work to do.
I agree, Reid and Ally. I've always been open to all groups and view equality across races, genders, and religions, but being forced to think otherwise helped me to learn and engage in anti-racism thoughts and actions. I've grown a lot the last 5 years.
Ally, I am a former Oregonian. After my degree in Broadcasting (74’) at the U of O. I worked at a TV station in Medford, Oregon. A friends husband worked as a cop in Ashland, Oregon. He said once riding with his partner that they saw a POC on the street. His partner said “ya there are about six of them here and we know where they all live.” After having lived with a person of color at the U of O. It came as such a shock. I never considered myself a a liberal. There where a number of friends from the Broadcasting department working there. Every executive at the station there Were white male chauvinist. They had an executive little club called “the Jolly boys”. After a couple of years they had to let this little “Jolly girl” into their group after I moved into sales. The FCC was going to challenge their license. We made a big joke out of it and made our own club we called ourselves the “Jolly Pee-Ons.”
I grew up in Medford, and graduated HS in 1976. I'm sure you knew (or knew of) Tam Moore; he is one of my best friend's Dad. What TV station did you work for, and who was your friend's husband? I got my degree in Criminology from SOSC in 1981 and knew a fair number of APD.
Lost your email. The person I went was Steve Deaton. He was there in the later 70's . It was only shortly then he got a job with Portland PD and went on from there to become a pilot for United.
I worked at KEMD I had the Promotions position when we changed it to KTVL. We did that when we sold the KMED call letter with the AM radio station. I don't know Tam he most have been at the other station. The fires there are just unbelievable. I spoke to friends in Portland this morning they were talking about the protests DT that are turning violent at night. Still. With only few arrests. She said she went through DT yesterday and there were 150 motorcycles lined up getting ready to do soon. They left quickly!
I have found memories of Southern Oregon. My only Fame to claim was that I help Anne Curry get her first job in TV. She went on to go to the TODAY show on NBC. Did you now David Sourer? His Dad was Pres. at SOSC. His sister worked at the Hungary Woodsman. I work with David at then KMED when I first got there. Good remembering with you .
Except that Michael Brown was not murdered . The grand jury and Eric Holder agreed.
From the liberal leaning WaPo
“So we wanted to set the record straight on the DOJ’s findings, especially after The Washington Post’s opinion writer Jonathan Capehart wrote that it was “built on a lie.” From time to time, we retroactively check statements as new information becomes available. In this case, the Justice Department has concluded that Wilson acted out of self-defense, and was justified in killing Brown.”
Legally justified in the existing context is one thing. Morally justified, including justification of that context, would be something else. If our police were trained to see people of color as us, not them; if trained to act to reduce violence, not inflict superior violence; then Michael Brown and a long list of other people would be alive today.
I agree that he was not prosecutable for murder, and I am normally more careful with my language than that.
The problem that I see with this "justification" is that (and I said this at the time, and was very unpopular in my non-cop social set) that in a very narrow window of time, to wit: the confrontation while the cop is seated in his patrol car and Mr. Brown is reaching in through the window <as I recall without looking up the details> that is a justified shoot. BUT: why was he seated in his patrol car while talking to Mr. Brown, why was he even talking with Mr. Brown in the first place, and did he say or do anything that may have provoked a violent response?
President Obama through his DOJ disagrees with you.
From the DOJ report.
This morning, the Justice Department announced the conclusion of our investigation and released a comprehensive, 87-page report documenting our findings and conclusions that the facts do not support the filing of criminal charges against Officer Darren Wilson in this case. Michael Brown’s death, though a tragedy, did not involve prosecutable conduct on the part of Officer Wilson.
“This conclusion represents the sound, considered, and independent judgment of the expert career prosecutors within the Department of Justice. I have been personally briefed on multiple occasions about these findings. I concur with the investigative team’s judgment and the determination about our inability to meet the required federal standard.
This outcome is supported by the facts we have found – but I also know these findings may not be consistent with some people’s expectations. To all those who have closely followed this case, and who have engaged in the important national dialogue it has inspired, I urge you to read this report in full. “
Not the result you wanted, but a conclusion based on fact.
Though the wakeup call was essential, the election of 1/45 was no boon to America or anyone except Putin. Division, treason, sedition, a coup attempt, and most grievous, half a million avoidable deaths . . . so much unnecessary suffering . . . tragic.
There's an old British saying from WW2 that "War is how Americans learn geography." Being a nation of hardheads, it takes a whole lot of whacking on the head to get the American Mule to recognize Reality.
Trump taught me that as much as I thought I was "woke" from the experiences of my life since the 60s and my political involvements, that I still had further to go. And that I had drunk from the poisoned glass of tribalism too.
I agree and will take your comment further by saying, 'correction and healing IS patriotic'. Isn't the very essence of democracy to have the freedom to right wrongs? And I agree, again, that knowledge is essential. In order to solve a problem, one must see and recognize the problem for what it is. It's a little like addiction, isn't it? One must first admit one has a problem before one can take the steps necessary to fix it.
The history I was taught in lily-white Glendale, CA, in the ‘40s and ‘50s, started with the Pilgrims, moved quickly to the founding fathers (emphasis on fathers) and jumped to scenes of wheat turbines spewing out our great agricultural products to show how prosperous and down to earth we were. Good clean soil, no dirt, especially on our hands.
As was the history that I was taught in lily-white (10% Hispanic) Glendale in the 60's and 70's. Glendale High School had 5 black students out of 3000. Some of the history teachers were forward thinking, though most of them were still a joke. Let it be remembered forever that Glendale Ca, was a Sundowner town,
In 1950 or so, an Indian family moved to Glendale; one of the sons, Nehru, was in my class. Some of the fine local citizens lit a cross on the family’s front lawn, thinking the family was Black. “Oops, honest mistake,” was the common reaction when told they were from India. My father and mother were horrified, but I think few others were.
Just as Ally above mentioned that she was a "use of force" trainer, there needs to be training of teachers in the proper way to instruct these sensitive topics of slavery and racism in our schools. I am a retired Special Education teacher from NJ. The history curriculum in NJ requires the teaching of slavery in our elementary schools (starting in 5th gade). I have witnessed and heard of teachers having their students engage in projects such as holding 'slave auctions' writing advertisements for the selling of slaves, and acting out the transporting of slaves in the hulls of the ships by having the students lay down on the classrooom rug and squeeze in as close as possible. Teachers have gotten in trouble, reports of these 'lessons' have gone on the news, etc. Yet, it continues to happen. There needs to be training for such curriculum because so many people just don't get it!
I went to high school in a fairly liberal suburb of Sacramento. We had one Black student and he ended up committing suicide. (I have no idea what the circumstances were and the two could be entirely unrelated. Still...).
That's interesting. We had one black student at my high school - an outstanding athlete in several sports, high achiever academically. Committed suicide the month before the 10th year class reunion.
I would have assumed that suicide rates among black men would be generally high, but it turns out that's not the case. Indigenous men #1, followed by white men. All others far behind. https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide
And history class in Texas in the 60s taught that "Lincoln freed the slaves. And the Texas Rangers were 'really good-guy heroes.' The end." (a pathetic indictment of the way textbooks have been co-opted and slanted for decades)
Although I love American history, I've never felt "proud" to be an American. I feel a degree of responsibility to learn history, and to have an ongoing conversation about America, but Trump becoming president felt humiliating, and any pride I may have had before then was burned away. I think a large segment of Americans have little patience for subtlety and discussion... you either love the country or you don't. McConnell recognizes this. He knows that a large segment of the Republican base is a flag waving, patriotic, love it or leave it kind of voter. If they lose the self-esteem that they gained by electing Trump, then they may stop voting.
What I learned out of my experiences in Vietnam that there is a big difference between loving the country (which I do) and supporting the government (which I mostly haven't). I knew the guy who was Librarian at RAND who let Daniel Ellsberg take the Pentagon Papers out and copy them. His name was Dick Best and he's known in history as the guy who turned the Battle of Midway from an American defeat to a victory by sinking the carrier Akagi almost single-handedly. A true American hero. And he told me he always believed he served his country better by what he did with Ellsberg than what he did over the Japanese fleet. "The American people deserved to know what had been done in their name."
There is indeed a big dif between loving the country and supporting the gov't. And Dick Best had a damn good head on his shoulders. Thanks for these observations.
Though mostly true of almost all politicians, in McConnell's case we can always assume there is a calculation of advantage in everything he does. He no longer operates on any principle whatsoever, if he ever did. Like Gollum with the Ring, power is his only lodestar.
McConnell is a real sh!t, and someone who doesn't give a damn about the country. One interesting factoid about him: his three daughters are all estranged from him.
It was probably a miracle. In any case, while in some cases, including my best friend and his ex-wife, give 'em a little time and they get along well. But Mitch's ex seems to realize she married a piece of slag (slag is much worse than sh!t because the latter is fertilizer and food for the dung beetles, whereas slag is poisonous).
After her divorce from McConnell, Sherrill Redmon left Kentucky for Northampton, Massachusetts. There, she became a feminist scholar and Director of the Sofia Smith Collection of the Women’s History Archives. While at Smith College, she worked on Voices of Feminism Oral History Project with feminist and journalist Gloria Steinem. Its primary goal was to document the persistence and diversity of women's organizing in the United States. In 2012, she retired from Smith College.
They married in '93. Mitch became wealthier from that marriage. From Wikipedia: "In April 2008, Chao's father gave Chao and McConnell between $5 million and $25 million,[97] which "boosted McConnell's personal worth from a minimum of $3 million in 2007 to more than $7 million"[98] and "helped the McConnells after their stock portfolio dipped in the wake of the financial crisis that year".[99]"
Yeah - I did know the wealth came from his wife's family. I still want some investigation into exactly how he was re-elected last time. The vote numbers are a bit screwy.
"Although I love American history, I've never felt 'proud' to be an American." That is me exactly. I've always been so deeply aware of our flaws that I find it impossible to say we are somehow exceptional.
As a 12 year old living in France for a year, '65-'66, I felt proud to be an American. But now? We're the most backward of the western industrialized nations. We have much more poverty than the rest of them. We have a greater percentage of deaths by opioid overdose, many of which are suicides (I've written about this). Our infrastructure has been left to wither in the wake of the Reagan revolution.
But this critical race theory that is invading college campuses and private high schools is BS. We have a class problem as much as a race problem, and CRT is giving the GOP a new handle on attacking us.
There is a lot of problems in the USA right now. It feels overwhelming. The pendulum is swinging wildly and differently around the country. With that said, I also believe that if this country is to become a better place there needs to be space for voices and theories that one would consider to be BS. Again, I am open to at least listening to the conversation. Eventually, I believe the country will land in a different place with a different overall consensus. This excites me.
I do think we have the right leader to lead us to a better place. We really lucked out, between getting rid of Delirium J. Tremens, getting both Houses, and getting the Democrat who is probably most prepared to deal effectively with the country's problems by dint of his experience. But critical race theory is very harmful, and stupid. Far better students should be taught empathy, beginning in elementary school.
I like that and I would add that I would like to see “compassion” as part of more school experiences. For me the word compassion adds the component of action; doing things to contribute to community and the country.
If you had actually studied critical race theory (I had to in order to write something accurate about it) you would find that it is actually very useful in learning how complicit we all can be, and what we need to do to get to where we claim we want to go.
Maybe so, and maybe not, but in practice it often results in harm, as evidenced by the NYT article on Smith College that I posted, and numerous other articles I've read. I think teaching empathy would do everything people want critical race theory to do without the harm.
Empathy, compassion and respect. Truth, justice and The American Way. Parents, school, religion. Throw them all in a melting pot and build back better.
Telling the truth is never BS. We should look to the example of Germany and how they wrote and taught all school children the truth about the Holocaust 20 years after the war!
I'm a Jew, and Germany did an excellent job. I knew a kid from Germany 20 years after the end of the Holocaust, and I saw first hand how well that had worked.
But the truth about privilege, and lack thereof in the US is much more complex than critical race theory makes it out to be. Money often has more power than race in this day and age. Think about all the working class whites in places like Appalachia and the rust belt, whose jobs have migrated to other countries or have been filled by immigrants, the amount of opioid addiction, and the numbers of deaths by opioid overdose--much of which are suicides (I've written about that). Substantial quantities of money trump skin color.
I remember reading about that incident. And one of the commenters on there mentioned that there was no investigation into what would have happened if the student was white! Good question. But the whole issue was allowed (& almost encouraged by the college) to get way out of line. The student didnt do any favors for the already dicey race relations on that campus. Doubt it changed any "hearts and minds".
Black and White. Good and Evil. The list goes on and on. I suspect that the oversimplification of religious texts, twitter sized histories and differing senses of fairness have something to do with this. Personally I find this a very exciting time for history and how it is written. I have learned a tremendous amount over the last five year alone. The newer narratives lend a richness to American History that I did get as a young man. I can see how flag waving Americans would hate anything that interrupts the illusion and would make them reconsider. Insecurities and mental illness in people’s personal lives spill over to the public sphere. People are all things and so is history and histories are made up of people who encompass all things good and not good. I for one embrace it.
I do understand how simple narratives can be very comforting, too. Wouldn't it be nice if we could clearly identify good people and evil people and love the one and despise the other? Too bad history gives us no such comfort. One of the reasons we on the left are struggling to attract people who don't want to think too hard is that the truth is complex and the Rs are peddling a simple and easily-understood, though entirely false, narrative.
I once wrote an essay last century deriding the bumper stickers "Proud to be An American."
In St. Louis high school 1962, I protested saying the pledge of allegiance to the flag every morning (under god) was my complaint. Surprisingly, no one tried to force it on me (A 1940 Supreme Court decision said they could not.) However, backwater schools were still trying to enforce patriotism, and a few brave students challenged it, so I made a more realistic pledge. That was 2002, this is the updated when DADT & DOMA were defeated in 2011 & 2015. When they remove that divisive "under god" I may recite it again.
Questions of Allegiance
Rob Boyte
June 26, 2015
Why pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, or to the Republic for which it stands, that allowed slavery until 1863, denied women the vote until 1920, segregated its armed forces by race until 1948, persecuted political minorities throughout the 1950s, and into the 21st Century still denied full rights to homosexuals to serve in its military until 2011 or to reap the benefits of marriage until 2015?
One nation, indivisible would not disfranchise its Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists or others who do not accept the archaic concept of a "god" by forcing them to read "in god we trust" on every coin of a supposed secular state. "We" do not all agree that ours is a nation "under god" and for the religious majority to assume such is a most divisive insult.
With Liberty and Justice for all, except of course those too poor to afford a slick lawyer in the court system, too black to be presumed innocent by the police or too in love with someone of the same gender.
I would expect American Pride to falter. As a privileged and formerly very patriotic white male I have lost pride in this stumbling country. Feel shame for being a white male amongst so many racist, ignorant hiders of the truth.
Perhaps low pride is proof of an American awakening. In any case, "pride" is an interesting concept.
Google tells me, "Pride is a positive emotional response or attitude to something with an intimate connection to oneself, due to its perceived value. This may be one's own abilities or achievements, positive characteristics of friends or family, or one's country." It is derived, however (still according to Google), from the Late Old English "pryde", meaning "excessive self-esteem".
So, while pride may be a positive emotion, a normal feeling common to all people at one time or another when justified by circumstances, clearly there is a point at which pride can become excessive, especially when there is insufficient circumstantial justification. So I am proud when my risotto ai carciofi is up to my Italian wife's high culinary standards, while she is proud when she is able to beat me at backgammon, a game I have played - even with strangers for money - since I was a child, while she played it for the first time when we were first locked down by the pandemic 14 months ago.
But, should my wife be so proud of all the amazingly good Italian food she is able to cook that she dismisses me as a "burger-eater", or should I be so proud of my backgammon abilities that I dismiss her (occasional!) victory as "pure luck, my dear, you'd be nowhere without double sixes"? Pride may be a pleasurable, hard-to-hide emotion, natural and even inevitable in all of us, but when we express it with more than a faint smile it tends to irritate those around us. Natural self-esteem, when even slightly excessive, can become irritating in a big way. Like most good things, there is a limit.
If I had gone to war to fight the Nazis and done my duty to the utmost and survived to tell the tale, would I be entitled to feel proud about that? Sure. If students, after much study and worry and missed social occasions, ace their organic chemistry exam, do they have a right to feel proud? Of course. But if I'm watching the US Olympic Men's basketball team wipe up the court with some other nation's Olympic team, should I jump up (spilling beer all over myself) and begin screaming "USA! USA! We're number 1!"? No, I shouldn't, not unless my brother is Steph Curry or LeBron James.
To sum up, there is the pride of Democrats (faint smile, "Good job, Joe Biden.") And there is GOP pride (raised AR-15, "America, Love it or Leave it!).
JR, do you think that in addition to the Trump Effect, the Pandemic Effect figured into Gallup's poll reflecting American's pride in country? Life was as lousy at it gets in the USA and there were so many deaths. Trump and the Pandemic are inextricably tied - how can you separate the two?
Many Canadians view America as a country brimming with self-confidence that would easily swell to arrogance at propitious moments (eg the Dream Team of NBA stars at the Olympics in Atlanta), expressed in the insufferable USA, USA, USA chants.
There was a periodically renewed debate within our country as to whether we were too self-effacing and would do well to adopt at least some of the attitude Americans had to their country.
We did adopt a more “take no prisoners” style in our government-initiated “Own the Podium” movement which aimed to support (and harden) our Olympic hopefuls.
But, by and large, we felt it futile to adopt the brash American attitude. It seemed to suit you - it wouldn’t us.
Then came 9/11.
When the dust settled, so to speak, we saw a new America. It was (or so it seemed to us, much less confident. The swagger was gone. There was a seeming national introspection - a moment in which Americans felt their bubble had been burst, their invulnerability pierced.
We saw Americans respond by going to war in two countries, that is true. But America seemed subdued and chastened, less sure of its ability to bestride the world like some unthinking Colossus.
Many of us would date American loss of confidence to 2001, not 2017 as has been suggested, maybe verified by studies.
The 21st century has been and continues to be a time of deep reckoning and hard questions for America about itself. Out of that has come a fierce struggle for the soul of the country - a quixotic quest, it seems to me. There are too many America’s for one soul to harbour.
I appreciate your thoughtful analysis. From what I’ve seen, American confidence (not quite the same thing as pride) on the international stage has ebbed and flowed over the past 60 years. Viet Nam seriously dented America’s confidence, followed by the double whammy of the OPEC oil embargoes. Confidence sprang back under Reagan, re-enforced by the falling of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union. It remained strong through the Clinton years, and actually rose after 2001, as America felt an outpouring of support from around the world. If anything, after 2001, America was overconfident. Dubyah’s arrogant neocons proclaimed (as they set out to invade Iraq and Afghanistan), “we don’t need to study history, we make history”. That didn’t turn out so well. Confidence (and pride) were strong during the Obama years. Then, it fell considerably during Trump’s presidency, for (I think) two reasons. One is that many of us were ashamed that such an unfit man could become president. Trump was an embarrassment to us. The other is that Trump’s rhetoric painted the world with fear - proposing that we cower behind walls and withdraw from the world, instead of continuing to lead by action and example. Trump’s vision, what little there was of it, was small and bitter. Nothing to instill confidence or pride.
I love this comment. I suppose that there could be reliable tracking by polls which illustrate your thesis. At an intellectual level, it makes tremendous sense to me.
I would put in two further comments to ponder.
The first is that 9/11 was an incredibly successful attack on American soil, considerably more impactful than the difficult periods - Vietnam, the OPEC crises, the Trump era - that you explained.
9/11 was a terrorism event that was shock and awe in a way the world had never seen (in terrorism). It came as a complete surprise - to ordinary Americans. It was televised live in unsparing detail - who can unsee people jumping out of skyscrapers? And the enemy was to most people, relatively unknown for some time.
If they could pull off that, why could they not blow up 10 Walmarts at exactly the same moment a month or two later. The attackers showed power and daring. Who knew what they were capable of?
Then followed the futility of two wars, the creation of the Dept. of Homeland Security, the daily humiliations at airports when we went to travel again.
Du ta was arrogant but Americans soon learned how stupid his response was - and how all sympathy was squandered in pursuing bin Laden and al Qaeda. On a macro scale it just kept worse and worse.
The second point I’d make is this. In Vietnam Americans learned slowly and painfully that they could lose a war. That was a new thing. And it certainly must have drained away confidence.
But the nation was far, far stronger then than it was in 2001. The pillars of any society, rock solid community organizations were virtually fully intact. People went to mainstream churches in high numbers. Schools were trusted. The government was seen as a force for good, although less so as Vietnam dragged on. Family units were stronger. The service club ethos was a binding force (Kiwanis, Lions Club etc). The Boy Scout organization was at the height of its influence. The union movement was at its apex. And so on.
For many reasons middle class Americans believed in the concept of America. On the other hand 9/11 came at a time when America seemed to be crumbling internally.
Despite your very persuasive points, I still cling to my belief that the 21st century has been one bad year after another for Americans. I do not think confidence suddenly eroded in 2017.
Report on a 2016 poll - a time at which 81% of Americans say they are extremely/very proud to be American.
The poll at the link above shows that 74% of Americans believe the country to be on the wrong track. 44% say it has been so for a long time - dating back to the Fifties.
Is this poll dispositive? I make no claims so. But the book I have been researching and writing for two years now indicates time and time again this waning of confidence in America over the past 60 years.
You wrote such a lovely piece. And then answered me with a one-sentence 'my poll is the be-all and end-all comment'. Disappointing.
My original post was exploring the point McConnell made, that "pride in America has fallen significantly". I wondered where that came from - was there data or did he just make it up. I found that indeed, there are polls measuring "American pride" with data going back 20 years or more. And that the measure of people who are proud or very proud has been remarkably steady, until Trump, at which point it fell. You expanded the discussion with some interesting observations, which are fun to read and think about, but which had little to do with my original point or the data from polls measuring American pride.
I think your original point about their being a difference between pride and confidence is the one overlooked.
You analyzed well why pride plummeted suddenly over Trump.
Confidence is different as you mentioned. American confidence in itself has dropped greatly since the Fifties, although as you pointed out it was revived nicely by Reagan.
But 9/11 was devastating. Bush’s immediate reaction notwithstanding and the outpouring of genuine sympathy and love from much of the world, Americans came to realize in short order how vulnerable they were, and in years to come how dangerous and unfriendly the world was. Americans want to be liked and this is always hard to achieve when you seek to be feared as well. The legacy of Cheney, Wolfowitz and their plan for a 21st century dominated by America is grim. And Trump was the piece de resistance. What a fool he was.
In any case thanks for the exchange of ideas. I think we were crossways between pride and confidence.
You are right. What a drop! Wouldn't you like to see that broken down, for instance, Republicans, Democrats, Independents, educational levels, race, class, ethnology, etc.?
One of the things that immediately harmed my patriotism was the use of the flag, the red white and blue, and some pretty awesome patriotic songs to push white supremacy. Add to that the president's and the GOP's insistence that I believe all the lies, distortions, and gaslighting. I immediately stepped aside.
When I read McConnell's claim that "American pride was at its lowest point in 20 years", I was skeptical. So I googled it (https://news.gallup.com/poll/312644/national-pride-falls-record-low.aspx). Turns out he's right about the measure of American pride. Gallup's poll shows that pride in America was remarkably steady from 2000 through 2016 - hovering around 80-85% year after year. Until Trump took office. Then national pride fell 20 points in 3 years. I wonder why?
There are days when I am grateful for the TFG era, for forcing our hidden caste system into bright light. I and so many other privileged white people could begin to understand what we did not know. Much of it was not taught in the Virginia schools where I went to high school, especially anything about oppression of any non white culture. I have been an adult for a long time and certainly could have found out about these things. But I was “busy” believing voting rights acts, and months celebrating women, or various cultures had righted the wrongs. But once you know, you know. I believe there can be correction and healing AND patriotism, coexisting. It will involve pain, discomfort and sacrifice. The essential tonic is knowledge, coming to us via many dedicated historians and delightful younger generation sources like Amanda Gorman. My thanks to every one of you.
Yes, while it's painful (and embarrassing) to admit that Trump had to be elected for me to get all the way to anti-racism, his election was a powerful goad and a deep recalibration of my assumptions about the people of this country.
I find myself in a similar boat, although I had started fighting this battle in earnest after Michael Brown was murdered in Ferguson, MO by law enforcement. I had to really stretch my ways of thinking about race and law enforcement.
**In case no one knows, retired cop, use of force trainer and hostage negotiator, living in an almost entirely white region of Oregon.
The hill you had to climb was so much steeper than mine; you have my admiration. I do not mean that you started out as more racist than me (than I? I can never keep it straight), but that the cultures within which you were and are operating may have been more likely to give cover to implicit (and explicit) bias. Good for you for digging deep. We all have so much work to do.
I echo what Reid said below. I only wish there were many more of you in the profession.
I agree, Reid and Ally. I've always been open to all groups and view equality across races, genders, and religions, but being forced to think otherwise helped me to learn and engage in anti-racism thoughts and actions. I've grown a lot the last 5 years.
Ally, I am a former Oregonian. After my degree in Broadcasting (74’) at the U of O. I worked at a TV station in Medford, Oregon. A friends husband worked as a cop in Ashland, Oregon. He said once riding with his partner that they saw a POC on the street. His partner said “ya there are about six of them here and we know where they all live.” After having lived with a person of color at the U of O. It came as such a shock. I never considered myself a a liberal. There where a number of friends from the Broadcasting department working there. Every executive at the station there Were white male chauvinist. They had an executive little club called “the Jolly boys”. After a couple of years they had to let this little “Jolly girl” into their group after I moved into sales. The FCC was going to challenge their license. We made a big joke out of it and made our own club we called ourselves the “Jolly Pee-Ons.”
I grew up in Medford, and graduated HS in 1976. I'm sure you knew (or knew of) Tam Moore; he is one of my best friend's Dad. What TV station did you work for, and who was your friend's husband? I got my degree in Criminology from SOSC in 1981 and knew a fair number of APD.
Lost your email. The person I went was Steve Deaton. He was there in the later 70's . It was only shortly then he got a job with Portland PD and went on from there to become a pilot for United.
I worked at KEMD I had the Promotions position when we changed it to KTVL. We did that when we sold the KMED call letter with the AM radio station. I don't know Tam he most have been at the other station. The fires there are just unbelievable. I spoke to friends in Portland this morning they were talking about the protests DT that are turning violent at night. Still. With only few arrests. She said she went through DT yesterday and there were 150 motorcycles lined up getting ready to do soon. They left quickly!
I have found memories of Southern Oregon. My only Fame to claim was that I help Anne Curry get her first job in TV. She went on to go to the TODAY show on NBC. Did you now David Sourer? His Dad was Pres. at SOSC. His sister worked at the Hungary Woodsman. I work with David at then KMED when I first got there. Good remembering with you .
Stay safer.
Thank you!
Except that Michael Brown was not murdered . The grand jury and Eric Holder agreed.
From the liberal leaning WaPo
“So we wanted to set the record straight on the DOJ’s findings, especially after The Washington Post’s opinion writer Jonathan Capehart wrote that it was “built on a lie.” From time to time, we retroactively check statements as new information becomes available. In this case, the Justice Department has concluded that Wilson acted out of self-defense, and was justified in killing Brown.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/03/19/hands-up-dont-shoot-did-not-happen-in-ferguson/
https://www.justice.gov/opa/speech/attorney-general-holder-delivers-update-investigations-ferguson-missouri
Legally justified in the existing context is one thing. Morally justified, including justification of that context, would be something else. If our police were trained to see people of color as us, not them; if trained to act to reduce violence, not inflict superior violence; then Michael Brown and a long list of other people would be alive today.
I agree that he was not prosecutable for murder, and I am normally more careful with my language than that.
The problem that I see with this "justification" is that (and I said this at the time, and was very unpopular in my non-cop social set) that in a very narrow window of time, to wit: the confrontation while the cop is seated in his patrol car and Mr. Brown is reaching in through the window <as I recall without looking up the details> that is a justified shoot. BUT: why was he seated in his patrol car while talking to Mr. Brown, why was he even talking with Mr. Brown in the first place, and did he say or do anything that may have provoked a violent response?
Did you know the sun's going to rise in the west tomorrow? They're wrong. Which frequently happens, and involves both Ds and Rs.
President Obama through his DOJ disagrees with you.
From the DOJ report.
This morning, the Justice Department announced the conclusion of our investigation and released a comprehensive, 87-page report documenting our findings and conclusions that the facts do not support the filing of criminal charges against Officer Darren Wilson in this case. Michael Brown’s death, though a tragedy, did not involve prosecutable conduct on the part of Officer Wilson.
“This conclusion represents the sound, considered, and independent judgment of the expert career prosecutors within the Department of Justice. I have been personally briefed on multiple occasions about these findings. I concur with the investigative team’s judgment and the determination about our inability to meet the required federal standard.
This outcome is supported by the facts we have found – but I also know these findings may not be consistent with some people’s expectations. To all those who have closely followed this case, and who have engaged in the important national dialogue it has inspired, I urge you to read this report in full. “
Not the result you wanted, but a conclusion based on fact.
Though the wakeup call was essential, the election of 1/45 was no boon to America or anyone except Putin. Division, treason, sedition, a coup attempt, and most grievous, half a million avoidable deaths . . . so much unnecessary suffering . . . tragic.
There's an old British saying from WW2 that "War is how Americans learn geography." Being a nation of hardheads, it takes a whole lot of whacking on the head to get the American Mule to recognize Reality.
True saying from the Brits. but again, there's violent imagery. Please skip it.
Trump taught me that as much as I thought I was "woke" from the experiences of my life since the 60s and my political involvements, that I still had further to go. And that I had drunk from the poisoned glass of tribalism too.
I agree and will take your comment further by saying, 'correction and healing IS patriotic'. Isn't the very essence of democracy to have the freedom to right wrongs? And I agree, again, that knowledge is essential. In order to solve a problem, one must see and recognize the problem for what it is. It's a little like addiction, isn't it? One must first admit one has a problem before one can take the steps necessary to fix it.
The history I was taught in lily-white Glendale, CA, in the ‘40s and ‘50s, started with the Pilgrims, moved quickly to the founding fathers (emphasis on fathers) and jumped to scenes of wheat turbines spewing out our great agricultural products to show how prosperous and down to earth we were. Good clean soil, no dirt, especially on our hands.
As was the history that I was taught in lily-white (10% Hispanic) Glendale in the 60's and 70's. Glendale High School had 5 black students out of 3000. Some of the history teachers were forward thinking, though most of them were still a joke. Let it be remembered forever that Glendale Ca, was a Sundowner town,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundown_town
In 1950 or so, an Indian family moved to Glendale; one of the sons, Nehru, was in my class. Some of the fine local citizens lit a cross on the family’s front lawn, thinking the family was Black. “Oops, honest mistake,” was the common reaction when told they were from India. My father and mother were horrified, but I think few others were.
My High School history teacher didn't like me so he nicknamed me "Adolph"... That would get your a** handed to you these days...
Just as Ally above mentioned that she was a "use of force" trainer, there needs to be training of teachers in the proper way to instruct these sensitive topics of slavery and racism in our schools. I am a retired Special Education teacher from NJ. The history curriculum in NJ requires the teaching of slavery in our elementary schools (starting in 5th gade). I have witnessed and heard of teachers having their students engage in projects such as holding 'slave auctions' writing advertisements for the selling of slaves, and acting out the transporting of slaves in the hulls of the ships by having the students lay down on the classrooom rug and squeeze in as close as possible. Teachers have gotten in trouble, reports of these 'lessons' have gone on the news, etc. Yet, it continues to happen. There needs to be training for such curriculum because so many people just don't get it!
I went to high school in a fairly liberal suburb of Sacramento. We had one Black student and he ended up committing suicide. (I have no idea what the circumstances were and the two could be entirely unrelated. Still...).
That's interesting. We had one black student at my high school - an outstanding athlete in several sports, high achiever academically. Committed suicide the month before the 10th year class reunion.
I would have assumed that suicide rates among black men would be generally high, but it turns out that's not the case. Indigenous men #1, followed by white men. All others far behind. https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide
And history class in Texas in the 60s taught that "Lincoln freed the slaves. And the Texas Rangers were 'really good-guy heroes.' The end." (a pathetic indictment of the way textbooks have been co-opted and slanted for decades)
And slaves were mostly happy agricultural workers who were, by and large, treated well.
I didn't learn anything like that. But then I went to a progressive private secondary school in Massachusetts.
That was pretty much the standard tale for us then.
Don't get me wrong, slavery was WRONG in this telling. But it wasn't too bad. 🙄
Trump taught us what we were in danger of losing through complacency.
Remind me TFG, please?
"That F-ing Guy", I believe. AKA Donald
;D no wonder Google search couldn’t help!
We speak our own esoteric language here on LFAA.
Or The Former Guy
The Former Guy
Also "That F-ing Guy"
That part about American pride falling under the last administration doesn’t surprise me! It was the most embarrassing presidency ever!
Although I love American history, I've never felt "proud" to be an American. I feel a degree of responsibility to learn history, and to have an ongoing conversation about America, but Trump becoming president felt humiliating, and any pride I may have had before then was burned away. I think a large segment of Americans have little patience for subtlety and discussion... you either love the country or you don't. McConnell recognizes this. He knows that a large segment of the Republican base is a flag waving, patriotic, love it or leave it kind of voter. If they lose the self-esteem that they gained by electing Trump, then they may stop voting.
What I learned out of my experiences in Vietnam that there is a big difference between loving the country (which I do) and supporting the government (which I mostly haven't). I knew the guy who was Librarian at RAND who let Daniel Ellsberg take the Pentagon Papers out and copy them. His name was Dick Best and he's known in history as the guy who turned the Battle of Midway from an American defeat to a victory by sinking the carrier Akagi almost single-handedly. A true American hero. And he told me he always believed he served his country better by what he did with Ellsberg than what he did over the Japanese fleet. "The American people deserved to know what had been done in their name."
There is indeed a big dif between loving the country and supporting the gov't. And Dick Best had a damn good head on his shoulders. Thanks for these observations.
WOW!
Though mostly true of almost all politicians, in McConnell's case we can always assume there is a calculation of advantage in everything he does. He no longer operates on any principle whatsoever, if he ever did. Like Gollum with the Ring, power is his only lodestar.
At least Gollum was a character that one could feel sympathy for...
McConnell is a real sh!t, and someone who doesn't give a damn about the country. One interesting factoid about him: his three daughters are all estranged from him.
One would think that would tell him something....
Never knew he had pro-created!!!!
It was probably a miracle. In any case, while in some cases, including my best friend and his ex-wife, give 'em a little time and they get along well. But Mitch's ex seems to realize she married a piece of slag (slag is much worse than sh!t because the latter is fertilizer and food for the dung beetles, whereas slag is poisonous).
Didnt even realize that the current wife is No. 2!
After her divorce from McConnell, Sherrill Redmon left Kentucky for Northampton, Massachusetts. There, she became a feminist scholar and Director of the Sofia Smith Collection of the Women’s History Archives. While at Smith College, she worked on Voices of Feminism Oral History Project with feminist and journalist Gloria Steinem. Its primary goal was to document the persistence and diversity of women's organizing in the United States. In 2012, she retired from Smith College.
https://www.legit.ng/1409641-sherrill-redmon-biography-mitch-mcconnells-wife.html
WOW!! Talk aboit "antithesis"!!!
Yes! She led a life after Mitch.
They married in '93. Mitch became wealthier from that marriage. From Wikipedia: "In April 2008, Chao's father gave Chao and McConnell between $5 million and $25 million,[97] which "boosted McConnell's personal worth from a minimum of $3 million in 2007 to more than $7 million"[98] and "helped the McConnells after their stock portfolio dipped in the wake of the financial crisis that year".[99]"
Yeah - I did know the wealth came from his wife's family. I still want some investigation into exactly how he was re-elected last time. The vote numbers are a bit screwy.
I'd certainly like to know the details on that, too!
Ghosts on the roles...
The first Ms McTurtle didn't bring in as much bacon.
"Although I love American history, I've never felt 'proud' to be an American." That is me exactly. I've always been so deeply aware of our flaws that I find it impossible to say we are somehow exceptional.
As a 12 year old living in France for a year, '65-'66, I felt proud to be an American. But now? We're the most backward of the western industrialized nations. We have much more poverty than the rest of them. We have a greater percentage of deaths by opioid overdose, many of which are suicides (I've written about this). Our infrastructure has been left to wither in the wake of the Reagan revolution.
But this critical race theory that is invading college campuses and private high schools is BS. We have a class problem as much as a race problem, and CRT is giving the GOP a new handle on attacking us.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/us/smith-college-race.html
There is a lot of problems in the USA right now. It feels overwhelming. The pendulum is swinging wildly and differently around the country. With that said, I also believe that if this country is to become a better place there needs to be space for voices and theories that one would consider to be BS. Again, I am open to at least listening to the conversation. Eventually, I believe the country will land in a different place with a different overall consensus. This excites me.
I do think we have the right leader to lead us to a better place. We really lucked out, between getting rid of Delirium J. Tremens, getting both Houses, and getting the Democrat who is probably most prepared to deal effectively with the country's problems by dint of his experience. But critical race theory is very harmful, and stupid. Far better students should be taught empathy, beginning in elementary school.
I like that and I would add that I would like to see “compassion” as part of more school experiences. For me the word compassion adds the component of action; doing things to contribute to community and the country.
Sounds good to me!
If you had actually studied critical race theory (I had to in order to write something accurate about it) you would find that it is actually very useful in learning how complicit we all can be, and what we need to do to get to where we claim we want to go.
Maybe so, and maybe not, but in practice it often results in harm, as evidenced by the NYT article on Smith College that I posted, and numerous other articles I've read. I think teaching empathy would do everything people want critical race theory to do without the harm.
Empathy, compassion and respect. Truth, justice and The American Way. Parents, school, religion. Throw them all in a melting pot and build back better.
Telling the truth is never BS. We should look to the example of Germany and how they wrote and taught all school children the truth about the Holocaust 20 years after the war!
I'm a Jew, and Germany did an excellent job. I knew a kid from Germany 20 years after the end of the Holocaust, and I saw first hand how well that had worked.
But the truth about privilege, and lack thereof in the US is much more complex than critical race theory makes it out to be. Money often has more power than race in this day and age. Think about all the working class whites in places like Appalachia and the rust belt, whose jobs have migrated to other countries or have been filled by immigrants, the amount of opioid addiction, and the numbers of deaths by opioid overdose--much of which are suicides (I've written about that). Substantial quantities of money trump skin color.
And I highly recommend this article to show you how badly critical race theory is often implemented. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/us/smith-college-race.html
I remember reading about that incident. And one of the commenters on there mentioned that there was no investigation into what would have happened if the student was white! Good question. But the whole issue was allowed (& almost encouraged by the college) to get way out of line. The student didnt do any favors for the already dicey race relations on that campus. Doubt it changed any "hearts and minds".
Black and White. Good and Evil. The list goes on and on. I suspect that the oversimplification of religious texts, twitter sized histories and differing senses of fairness have something to do with this. Personally I find this a very exciting time for history and how it is written. I have learned a tremendous amount over the last five year alone. The newer narratives lend a richness to American History that I did get as a young man. I can see how flag waving Americans would hate anything that interrupts the illusion and would make them reconsider. Insecurities and mental illness in people’s personal lives spill over to the public sphere. People are all things and so is history and histories are made up of people who encompass all things good and not good. I for one embrace it.
I do understand how simple narratives can be very comforting, too. Wouldn't it be nice if we could clearly identify good people and evil people and love the one and despise the other? Too bad history gives us no such comfort. One of the reasons we on the left are struggling to attract people who don't want to think too hard is that the truth is complex and the Rs are peddling a simple and easily-understood, though entirely false, narrative.
That's why we have movies and why (with a couple of rare exceptions) one should never think they have "learned" history from watching one.
Makes sense, except Gallup said pride polling dropped 9% amongst Republicans when Trump became president.
I once wrote an essay last century deriding the bumper stickers "Proud to be An American."
In St. Louis high school 1962, I protested saying the pledge of allegiance to the flag every morning (under god) was my complaint. Surprisingly, no one tried to force it on me (A 1940 Supreme Court decision said they could not.) However, backwater schools were still trying to enforce patriotism, and a few brave students challenged it, so I made a more realistic pledge. That was 2002, this is the updated when DADT & DOMA were defeated in 2011 & 2015. When they remove that divisive "under god" I may recite it again.
Questions of Allegiance
Rob Boyte
June 26, 2015
Why pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, or to the Republic for which it stands, that allowed slavery until 1863, denied women the vote until 1920, segregated its armed forces by race until 1948, persecuted political minorities throughout the 1950s, and into the 21st Century still denied full rights to homosexuals to serve in its military until 2011 or to reap the benefits of marriage until 2015?
One nation, indivisible would not disfranchise its Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists or others who do not accept the archaic concept of a "god" by forcing them to read "in god we trust" on every coin of a supposed secular state. "We" do not all agree that ours is a nation "under god" and for the religious majority to assume such is a most divisive insult.
With Liberty and Justice for all, except of course those too poor to afford a slick lawyer in the court system, too black to be presumed innocent by the police or too in love with someone of the same gender.
Very good.
I would expect American Pride to falter. As a privileged and formerly very patriotic white male I have lost pride in this stumbling country. Feel shame for being a white male amongst so many racist, ignorant hiders of the truth.
Semper Fi.
You can always tell a Marine (you just can't tell him very much) :-)
I suspect the reason you now say this and the reason you end as you do are the same.
Perhaps low pride is proof of an American awakening. In any case, "pride" is an interesting concept.
Google tells me, "Pride is a positive emotional response or attitude to something with an intimate connection to oneself, due to its perceived value. This may be one's own abilities or achievements, positive characteristics of friends or family, or one's country." It is derived, however (still according to Google), from the Late Old English "pryde", meaning "excessive self-esteem".
So, while pride may be a positive emotion, a normal feeling common to all people at one time or another when justified by circumstances, clearly there is a point at which pride can become excessive, especially when there is insufficient circumstantial justification. So I am proud when my risotto ai carciofi is up to my Italian wife's high culinary standards, while she is proud when she is able to beat me at backgammon, a game I have played - even with strangers for money - since I was a child, while she played it for the first time when we were first locked down by the pandemic 14 months ago.
But, should my wife be so proud of all the amazingly good Italian food she is able to cook that she dismisses me as a "burger-eater", or should I be so proud of my backgammon abilities that I dismiss her (occasional!) victory as "pure luck, my dear, you'd be nowhere without double sixes"? Pride may be a pleasurable, hard-to-hide emotion, natural and even inevitable in all of us, but when we express it with more than a faint smile it tends to irritate those around us. Natural self-esteem, when even slightly excessive, can become irritating in a big way. Like most good things, there is a limit.
If I had gone to war to fight the Nazis and done my duty to the utmost and survived to tell the tale, would I be entitled to feel proud about that? Sure. If students, after much study and worry and missed social occasions, ace their organic chemistry exam, do they have a right to feel proud? Of course. But if I'm watching the US Olympic Men's basketball team wipe up the court with some other nation's Olympic team, should I jump up (spilling beer all over myself) and begin screaming "USA! USA! We're number 1!"? No, I shouldn't, not unless my brother is Steph Curry or LeBron James.
To sum up, there is the pride of Democrats (faint smile, "Good job, Joe Biden.") And there is GOP pride (raised AR-15, "America, Love it or Leave it!).
JR, do you think that in addition to the Trump Effect, the Pandemic Effect figured into Gallup's poll reflecting American's pride in country? Life was as lousy at it gets in the USA and there were so many deaths. Trump and the Pandemic are inextricably tied - how can you separate the two?
The decline in pride numbers started in 2017. By the time the pandemicbegan it had dropped 20 points.
Many Canadians view America as a country brimming with self-confidence that would easily swell to arrogance at propitious moments (eg the Dream Team of NBA stars at the Olympics in Atlanta), expressed in the insufferable USA, USA, USA chants.
There was a periodically renewed debate within our country as to whether we were too self-effacing and would do well to adopt at least some of the attitude Americans had to their country.
We did adopt a more “take no prisoners” style in our government-initiated “Own the Podium” movement which aimed to support (and harden) our Olympic hopefuls.
And there was an *enormously* successful beer commercial - I’m a Canadian (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WMxGVfk09lU) which brilliantly captured our aspirations.
But, by and large, we felt it futile to adopt the brash American attitude. It seemed to suit you - it wouldn’t us.
Then came 9/11.
When the dust settled, so to speak, we saw a new America. It was (or so it seemed to us, much less confident. The swagger was gone. There was a seeming national introspection - a moment in which Americans felt their bubble had been burst, their invulnerability pierced.
We saw Americans respond by going to war in two countries, that is true. But America seemed subdued and chastened, less sure of its ability to bestride the world like some unthinking Colossus.
Many of us would date American loss of confidence to 2001, not 2017 as has been suggested, maybe verified by studies.
The 21st century has been and continues to be a time of deep reckoning and hard questions for America about itself. Out of that has come a fierce struggle for the soul of the country - a quixotic quest, it seems to me. There are too many America’s for one soul to harbour.
I appreciate your thoughtful analysis. From what I’ve seen, American confidence (not quite the same thing as pride) on the international stage has ebbed and flowed over the past 60 years. Viet Nam seriously dented America’s confidence, followed by the double whammy of the OPEC oil embargoes. Confidence sprang back under Reagan, re-enforced by the falling of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union. It remained strong through the Clinton years, and actually rose after 2001, as America felt an outpouring of support from around the world. If anything, after 2001, America was overconfident. Dubyah’s arrogant neocons proclaimed (as they set out to invade Iraq and Afghanistan), “we don’t need to study history, we make history”. That didn’t turn out so well. Confidence (and pride) were strong during the Obama years. Then, it fell considerably during Trump’s presidency, for (I think) two reasons. One is that many of us were ashamed that such an unfit man could become president. Trump was an embarrassment to us. The other is that Trump’s rhetoric painted the world with fear - proposing that we cower behind walls and withdraw from the world, instead of continuing to lead by action and example. Trump’s vision, what little there was of it, was small and bitter. Nothing to instill confidence or pride.
I love this comment. I suppose that there could be reliable tracking by polls which illustrate your thesis. At an intellectual level, it makes tremendous sense to me.
I would put in two further comments to ponder.
The first is that 9/11 was an incredibly successful attack on American soil, considerably more impactful than the difficult periods - Vietnam, the OPEC crises, the Trump era - that you explained.
9/11 was a terrorism event that was shock and awe in a way the world had never seen (in terrorism). It came as a complete surprise - to ordinary Americans. It was televised live in unsparing detail - who can unsee people jumping out of skyscrapers? And the enemy was to most people, relatively unknown for some time.
If they could pull off that, why could they not blow up 10 Walmarts at exactly the same moment a month or two later. The attackers showed power and daring. Who knew what they were capable of?
Then followed the futility of two wars, the creation of the Dept. of Homeland Security, the daily humiliations at airports when we went to travel again.
Du ta was arrogant but Americans soon learned how stupid his response was - and how all sympathy was squandered in pursuing bin Laden and al Qaeda. On a macro scale it just kept worse and worse.
The second point I’d make is this. In Vietnam Americans learned slowly and painfully that they could lose a war. That was a new thing. And it certainly must have drained away confidence.
But the nation was far, far stronger then than it was in 2001. The pillars of any society, rock solid community organizations were virtually fully intact. People went to mainstream churches in high numbers. Schools were trusted. The government was seen as a force for good, although less so as Vietnam dragged on. Family units were stronger. The service club ethos was a binding force (Kiwanis, Lions Club etc). The Boy Scout organization was at the height of its influence. The union movement was at its apex. And so on.
For many reasons middle class Americans believed in the concept of America. On the other hand 9/11 came at a time when America seemed to be crumbling internally.
Despite your very persuasive points, I still cling to my belief that the 21st century has been one bad year after another for Americans. I do not think confidence suddenly eroded in 2017.
Okay, don’t believe it. Your feelings outweigh the data.
Are you really satisfied with such a flip answer?
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/americans-1950s-poll_n_580fcf0be4b08582f88c9575
Report on a 2016 poll - a time at which 81% of Americans say they are extremely/very proud to be American.
The poll at the link above shows that 74% of Americans believe the country to be on the wrong track. 44% say it has been so for a long time - dating back to the Fifties.
Is this poll dispositive? I make no claims so. But the book I have been researching and writing for two years now indicates time and time again this waning of confidence in America over the past 60 years.
You wrote such a lovely piece. And then answered me with a one-sentence 'my poll is the be-all and end-all comment'. Disappointing.
My original post was exploring the point McConnell made, that "pride in America has fallen significantly". I wondered where that came from - was there data or did he just make it up. I found that indeed, there are polls measuring "American pride" with data going back 20 years or more. And that the measure of people who are proud or very proud has been remarkably steady, until Trump, at which point it fell. You expanded the discussion with some interesting observations, which are fun to read and think about, but which had little to do with my original point or the data from polls measuring American pride.
Fair enough.
I think your original point about their being a difference between pride and confidence is the one overlooked.
You analyzed well why pride plummeted suddenly over Trump.
Confidence is different as you mentioned. American confidence in itself has dropped greatly since the Fifties, although as you pointed out it was revived nicely by Reagan.
But 9/11 was devastating. Bush’s immediate reaction notwithstanding and the outpouring of genuine sympathy and love from much of the world, Americans came to realize in short order how vulnerable they were, and in years to come how dangerous and unfriendly the world was. Americans want to be liked and this is always hard to achieve when you seek to be feared as well. The legacy of Cheney, Wolfowitz and their plan for a 21st century dominated by America is grim. And Trump was the piece de resistance. What a fool he was.
In any case thanks for the exchange of ideas. I think we were crossways between pride and confidence.
You are right. What a drop! Wouldn't you like to see that broken down, for instance, Republicans, Democrats, Independents, educational levels, race, class, ethnology, etc.?
One of the things that immediately harmed my patriotism was the use of the flag, the red white and blue, and some pretty awesome patriotic songs to push white supremacy. Add to that the president's and the GOP's insistence that I believe all the lies, distortions, and gaslighting. I immediately stepped aside.
Excellent point JR.
Hey - Remember when Gallup claimed DJT was most admired?
🤮
I question their “findings”