At the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) last weekend, Daily Wire host Michael Knowles said that “for the good of society…transgenderism must be eradicated from public life entirely—the whole preposterous ideology, at every level.” He worded his statement in such a way that it would inevitably create outrage that he could then angrily refute by insisting that “eradicating transgenderism” was not the same thing as eradicating transgender people.
Ultimately, both on the surface and within the substance, Orban's "Christian Democracy" is not Christian. It is cut from the same cloth that prepared Germany for WWII and the Holocaust. There is little to difference between Hitler's Nazism and Stalin's Communism or Soviets, nor with Putin's plan to restore Soviet Russia. Hitler's Holocaust and Stalin's starvation of Ukraine to establish state operated agriculture are both founded on the debasement of humanity. None of this right up to the DeSantis's attacks on on freedom and equality in the name of "Christian values" are Christian. They all twist vocabulary, terms and values on their head to make what's wrong right, and what's right wrong. This deception is addressed in the Bible as Satan.
Except that Stalin came from the far Left of Communism, Communism gone awry. Both Hitler and Stalin were ruthless dictators, totalitarian despots but each came from opposite ends of the political spectrum. It would seem better proof that any sort of absolute power, whether from the Left or the Right ultimately and inevitably leads to corruption of whatever first principles originally animated them.
I would argue that the far right defined Stalin's government as "far left" to enable more effective demonization of Stalin's approach.
In fact, "Communism", in its earliest definition, does not look even remotely like what Stalin created. Stalin created a right wing, centrally controlled, top down government where ONLY what Stalin wanted mattered.
In true "communism" a "community" of people come together to govern themselves, share their lives, their assets and their talents in a common, communal manner, much as the early disciples did (as described in the Acts of the Apostles).
The bastardization of "communism" by Stalin forever made "Communism" ugly to those unaware of what "communism" actually was in its early forms during early industrialization and during the time immediately following Jesus death.
But, if you carefully read the Acts of the Apostles, describing true communal sharing and living of Jesus early followers, you will see a community effort at self government AND sharing.
Not altogether different than what John Adams set out in his ground breaking Massachusetts's Constitution.
I can’t even tell you how upsetting it is when a word with a wholesome meaning gets turned into an ‘evil’ word. Communism, Socialism, and now Christian and Republican. I did not know words can be kidnapped and used for different purposes. It is very effective for those who want to steal your mind.
You are so right! It’s a sickness! It’s an effort to say: we’re more patriotic than the rest of you. Today at the beach, we saw a woman, in a beach chair, surrounded by little American flags she had stuck into the ground. It was like her “fence” against the rest of us. Crazy!!!
But the left has let the right commandeer the American flag. A tactical error that goes back at least to the Vietnam War protests. We have to proudly bring American flags to all our protests. This is our America and our flag!!!
I don't think the right commandeered it. I think during and in the aftermath of the Vietnam War the left disowned it. It's our fault. After I got a new (used) car years ago, I put a flag decal on it. when I visited my best friend with that car, thinking the car had come with the flag, he started to try to scrape it off. We need to take the flag back.
Only because we let it. I began flying the flag at home because it is the flag of my country. When I see it flown on a large pole on the back of a bubba truck, I see that as disrespecting the symbol. We sure can't just let them have it.
What about all the words hijacked by the LGBT community?:
Gay, Queer, Pride, Woman, He, She, Marriage, Husband, Wife, Partner, to name but a few?
Less of your blatant, in your face, evangelism and we might all be able to get on better together. I, and a lot of people I know will never accept mandated speech or pronouns.
Faux angertaintment! You win my 'award' for best coinage of a new word. At first I was going to change your spelling to angertainment (off entertainment) but then I realized the "taint" was probably intentional and applied 3 different concepts to the totally understandable word.
Like "jihad," whose original meaning is, to struggle for the sake of God. It is not violent and does not mean to attack anyone or go to war. The word has been mainstreamed into the American lexicon and is discriminatory and derogatory.
Most people don't even understand what communism and socialism mean, either.
Mary If virtually no one knows what ‘socialism’ really mean, what about ‘woke?’ Talking about obfuscation! If you ain’t woke, you are brain dead [my modest interpretation]
Susan Burgess, "those who want to steal your mind"
George Orwell ominously predicted this in "1984" with Big Brother's newspeak. Change the language and people will be limited in how they can think, which eliminates their ability to challenge rulers.
Susan I agree that wholesome words have been ‘evilized.’ What further boggles me is that those who oppose American principles have kidnapped the American flag and those who are anti-abolition march under their ‘pro-life’ hypocrisy.
It’s, at least to me, a super effective form of terrorism, to steal words and change the meaning while kidnapping the group under that word’s banner at the same time.
Susan, read "Alice Through the Looking Glass", Chapter 6, by Lewis Carroll where Humpty Dumpty gives Alice stern instruction on giving words their meanings, as many meaning as the "master" determines.
David As a college sophomore, my English professor quoted this to me after reading my flowery language essay. Subsequently, when I became a professor, I did the same with some of my students.
This ( hijacking of language) is exactly what always happens when totalitarian states establish themselves. The book is a roadmap to what we are seeing. Extremely prescient
Joan I have recently re-read Orwell’s 1984 and re-watched the movie. Chilling and a reflection of DeSantis. In Animal Farm, Orwell was a bit more optimistic. With the pigs ‘more equal than the others, an authoritarian pig-dominated society was eventually overthrown by a coalition of animals.
Thank you Mike. The more facts I read the more I worry about ever knowing what is really in our history. So much to digest. I do feel that the desire for some to control others is a definite evil. To come together in a purpose of kindness and caring and sharing is very different from what I am hearing from the MAGA crazies.
Several years ago my husband and I visited a museum in Italy. In one room was a group of fabulously realistic marble statues. The carvings were so beautiful that it was hard not to touch. One was of a beautiful woman lying on a couch. Even though the marble was hard and cold the bedding on the couch seemed warm and inviting. It was a miracle of art and thousands of years old. The woman figure had both breasts and a penis. I show this photo to people who seem to think this is a new phenomena. The human animal has come with many variants of genetic makeup. For those who abhor the idea try putting oneself in the confusion this natural phenomenon presents. Think of the child or adult who is faced with this overwhelming difference. Remember that while the far right members deny fact, somewhere, everywhere humans suffer through hate and denial of self. Would any of us want to hurt another to that extreme? Ask Jesus .... if you are truly Christian your answer should jump out at you like a miracle.
I do not count myself as a “Christian”, but I do think of myself as a miracle human animal. That is all and that is everything.🎶🦋🌺🌎🪐💫
Absolutely love this post. I wish everyone would watch the new ¨Next In Fashion¨ ( I know, I know, I know) on Netflix. There is a trans person as one of the contestants. To be a being trapped in a body that does not belong to you is a form of hell. To be able to free your being from that body and transform into who you are is such a rightful gift. 🧜♀️🎊⭐✨🐬🦢🦚
I agree that Stalin was far from what Marx envisioned. In my view Russia merely changed from one autocracy to another...no revolution actually just more of the same under a different name. Kudos for including a part of the NT here.
Beautifully written, Mike S. Hitler and Stalin are ultimately the same, mean men in pursuit of power. I say “mean” because both came to their evil pursuit of power from feeling aggrieved and both found ways for “payback.” Look at Trump for a tinpot version.
Thank you, Mike S., for so eloquently describing Communism and its principles. You are absolutely correct. Anyone understanding communism would immediately see that while it might be idyllic it would never be ideal. In a small commune, such as the 12 disciples, the hippy communes of the 1960's and 70's it worked well for short periods of time. No one in their right mind would suggest communism for more than 100 persons - and even that is stretching it. Socialism where a country is ruled for the good of all inhabitants can work, with much effort to keep it honest. As there is no such thing as a Communist Country, there is also no such thing as a classless society. What we have tried (until now) in America to have a society based on the ability of people to move up or down in class. Now as we have drifted first into oligarchy since the 1970's, we are fast approaching a dictatorial fascist form of government, Thankfully I will not be around to witness it. I hope the rest of you can turn it around to save our representative republic.
Authoritarianism is brutal whatever brand is attached to it, right, left, or theocratic. And yes, I think the Enlightenment Era philosophies that informed much of the social theories of our founding documents tilt leftward. However, I am impressed by the Oracle at Delphi (Pythia) and the three maxims engraved before the temple:
Know thyself
Nothing to excess
Surety brings ruin, or "make a pledge and mischief is nigh"
I note that biological systems are a mind-boggling array of mutually interactive balances (thus we are unwise to %#@& with our climate) but we humans are more comfortable with simple answers. Back in the '70s I met people who thought there should be no private property at all. I have since met or read people who think that any public property whatsoever (even pubic roads) is an anathema. Both seem to me to throw out the babies with the bathwater. I seems to me that both robust private enterprise and public works are the right tool for the right job. Reconciling both can be tricky, but extreme purity loses the plot. In any case, unaccountable power tends to corrupt.
The social theories of Jesus always seemed to me to lean leftward. So did Lincoln. Lincoln's "The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities" sounds more like Marx, or even the "Declaration" than Reagan or Trump, as does “Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.” Lincoln was not attacking capital, just placing it in its proper perspective.
To JL Graham: you hit the complexities quite squarely. Kermit the Frog sang “It’s not easy being green.” I would substitute “human” for green. Your approach to the problem is commendable. Practicing it will give you lots of friends. When the next pandemic hits, I look forward to the discussion we might have.
Kibbutzim were great for agriculture and small manufacturing. And a great place to raise a family. They haven't worked on a larger economic scale, though. So maybe yes, but not quite the bucolic picture on most people's minds.
When it comes to authoritarians, "left" and "right" have virtually no meaning. Like Big Brother, they twist words and concepts to fit what they perceive to be their own interest at the moment. (Sounds a bit like TFG, doesn't it?)
GODS WORD! The Early CHURCH, is the EXAMPLE that OUR LORD! would Have US ! ( MANKIND) to Follow ! the Book, of ACTS, IS the GREAT EXAMPLE! THANKS ! MIKE!
It's not the left- or right-ness, but the degree of stuck-ness: unwilling to listen, unwilling to think or be thoughtful, unwilling to care about others, unwilling to see ramifications or downsides (because there always is).
Back when I was majoring in Russian Language and Literature, one of my professors pointed out that right and left are a circle, rather than a line. Far right and far left end up meeting, because at the extremes, the only philosophy is control and power. This idea has resonated with me ever since.
This is an observation that I have made for a long time. Moderates at the top of the circle look and sound a lot alike, can often work with each other. Extremists at the bottom of the circle who come close to sounding alike, and certainly share the same destructive authoritarian means and methods.
However, this circle concept does not mean right and left are equally distributed around the circle. During Eisenhower's time the distribution might have been equil on each side with moderates heaviest on top. Now Republicans heavily weighted on the side to bottom, with Democrats more evenly spread from top to middle, tapering off toward the bottom.
We have three daughters. The oldest was very rebellious, the middle less so, and the youngest almost not at all. But she was the most confident, bold and adventurous. We could tell that she learned from the oldest that rebellion for it's own sake or for attention, accomplished nothing worthwhile, just a lot of chaos, confusion, and wasted resources. I think Democrats are the reacting the same to Republicans. However, while the oldest was living at home, the youngest had to bide her time.
Juanita Spot on! Far right and far left are two faces on the same coin, as are love and hate. One possible difference is that the far left may profess to be ‘serving the people,’ while the far right often considers the common people as rabble to be commanded.
Control of others is the common point which offers the circle as a better metaphor than a continumn (line) for extremes become a singular among attributes and desires that suround human possibility. Otherwise, I was going to suggest that the Extremes know that their recipe for Chilli is the right one. ;))
Fred Jung was enchanted by the circle for which he was fried by Freud. Love/hate, far left/far right/Native American tradition of life circle for humans and animals.
Bruce Is venality in his veins keeping KIssinger alive? He was chairman for years of an organization with which I have been involved since 1953, Henry is not a ‘nice’ man and his ego tops Trump’s.
Mike I attended a meeting at the Asia Society in the spring of 2003 at which Kissinger launched a torrent of criticism at the French foreign minister for not supporting the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld initiative to obtain UN support for a U.S. invasion of Iraq.
The French foreign minister, supported by many others, called for an extension of the UN team that was (often with suggestions from CIA) seeking to identify whether there were any WMD (weapons of mass destruction) in effort. So far they had found none.
I had interviewed Iraqi President Abdul Karim Qassim for 21/2 hours in 1960. He was a creepy guy who was killed in a coup authorized by JFK in 1963 which provided a launching pad for Saddam Hussein.
As a former Foreign Service Officer, I was astonished by former SecState Kissinger’s tirade. General Powell deserves some criticism for his February UN speech, in which he parroted false information provided to him by CIA Director Tenet.
However the overwhelming blame goes to Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld, with Kissinger’s coaching from the public sidelines.
Stalin was no more “Communist” than Hitler and his National Socialist party were “Socialist.” Just as the Poser “Christians” never seem to quote Jesus, but always Paul. They are in fact Paulists, like the Puritans who embraced that severe, non-Christian religion. Many so-called “Christians” are anti-Semitic, yet cherry pick from their Buybull’s Old Testament Jewish writings (Leviticus) when Paul’s edicts were not severe enuf. A requirement of the KKK is to be Protestant Christian, yet Jesus would be appalled at their actions. All these Hypocracies are embraced by hateful oppressors whether Soviet, Nazi, or the Repugnant Party.
John Just as the line between love and hate is narrow (some spectacular divorce battles) so is the line between far left and far right. Hitler and Stalin were both brutal dictators with false creeds. Whether they were driven by communism or extreme nationalism, the results were similarly deadly.
I recall years ago reading a comparison between Stalinism and the Catholic Church. Similarities included 1) authoritarianism; 2) ruthlessness in punishing offenders; the ultimate power. Historically the Jesuits and the Inquisition might match the Stalin ‘trials’ of the 1930s.
Today we might ruminate on the similarities between Hungary’s Orban and the cockatoos who flutter around Trump and post-Trump.
I think the driving force for them was the intense desire to set up worship in their name, to amass power and to tell people what to think and do. Just like DeSantis.
But the political spectrum is not a line, it's a circle. Left and right meet in the back. On that circle you could also place rational/ crazy, and cooperative/ individual. Or maybe stack the three.
30 years ago, while teaching the concept of political spectrum, I used the traditional linear alignment with Communism, Socialism, Liberalism on the left and Dictatorship, Fascism, Monarchy, and Conservatism on the right. Independents were scattered throughout the middle. Same analogy was used within a party; ie, on the liberal side there were radicals, traditional liberals and moderate liberals and on the conservative side there were reactionaries, traditional conservatives, and moderate conservative. I researched alternatives because I couldn't find a place on that scale for anarchists. But it did reflect the challenge for someone one the more extreme ends of the spectrum to look toward the center and beyond and see reasonable people. The radical looks to his/her right and sees fascists/the conservative looks to his/her left and sees communists.
To try to account for that, I created a circular scale that did not quite close at the top. The bottom were independents, the right was conservatives, the left liberals. The "circle" was. more like a Celtic torque-opened at the top. I used that space to describe the explosive effects of anarchists in the manner an electric spark was snap across that gap. It also establishes the concept that communism and fascism are not as far apart as we think, making the jump that Lenin and Stalin made to introduce Marxism to agrarian Russia most understandable as a jump from communism to fascism or ultra-liberalism to ultra-conservatism.
In short, I agree with your circular analogy.
I'd not seen anyone suggest anything like it, so I was on my own; but nobody seems to object to the graphic.
Sounds like you've seen someone or something that uses that circular spectrum. I'd truly like to read anything on that topic you can share with me.
I have nothing academic, just observations of people and the world. My observations were informed by study of Russian and Chinese history as an adjunct to travel- Soviet Union in '86 and China in '88. We were in Leningrad when Chernobyl blew up and Tianamen Square a year before the massacre. I think it's easier to see the loop when you get first-hand observations of how a government treats it's people.
Add that to college stuff where I could see my fringe friends looking very similar on the stridency and extremity of their arguments. Literally the same arguments, eyeballs and bulging veins: the similarities.
I've carried this theory for a long time and saw it reinforced when the Boogaloos contemplated their relationship with extremes of Antifa. I love your gap and spark analogy because it speaks to how those two synergize and release the every of violence. I've not seen many folks make the circular reference, but it's clear as a sunny day to me. If we all saw it that way, it would be easier to find the common ground. Especially when we all understood the hairy eyeball is reserved not just for the folks across from us, but also those behind us.
JohnM: If you study the concept of political spectrum, you will find communism are the far left and fascism on the far right. However, if you substitute Lenin's tenants of power for Marx's principle of communism, you'll find Lenin (and Stalin) warped Marx's tenants from the power of we to the power of me. At that point, they were no longer Marxist, but simply another brand of fascists.
With Nazism or Soviet or East German Communism Opposite is not really true. It is an idea that these were opposite but they end up being the same end of the spectrum, that of extremism. In fact, that the "Left" and "Right" are marching together in the same causes quite often these days is an interesting phenomenon. Not just that Matt Gaetz and AOC are aligned on withdrawing the USA from Syria, but I also see this in Germany with the "Left" and "Right" being against Covid vaccines, and against supporting Ukraine, and a lot of other positions in the Bundestag that are very nationalistic and inward focused. One of the reasons that I avoid the former Eastern German states when I am in Germany, is because they had Hitler and then the DDR, so that was a lot of years of totalitarian government. I don't see either system as different in how they manage people. Not opposite at all, even the way that they tell people that they are for them seems the same. Both are systems of "group think." That is what the Republican Party MAGA-ites are engaged in too. TRUMP gets group think. He is the head group thinker. DeSantis is trying it out too. He wants to be the Big Brother. Those Republicans who buck the group think are endangering themselves. I have been wondering whether Mitch McConnells accident was an accident like I might have an accident, or like Putin's friends who don't agree with him have accidents.
Stalin was starving Ukraine because he needed the grain for export to generate the capital to industrialize his peasant economy. Collectivization was the means to generate the foreign exchange required to fund this transformation. It was state capitalism.
James Historians estimate that 3-6 million Ukrainians starved to death in this ‘transformation’ to state capitalism. I have a video that documents this.
James Yes, and in a book by two French historians on deaths under communism. Walter Duranty of the NYT won a Pulitzer for his early 1930s reporting from Moscow. He omitted reporting on the Ukrainian ‘genocide.’ A book was published highlighting this. The NYT ‘investigated’ and then chose not to seek annulment of the Pulitzer. (I have the book in my library upstairs)
Thank you! I'll check it out. Mr. Jones was written in 2019. It's streaming on Prime now. I don't know that I can find Harvest of Despair as it was released in 2004.
I’d readily agree, but our own past has many dark moments in it where history books and the America , the people haven’t done the justice they should (Zinn’s is pretty ‘good’). But here again there’s room to improve, acknowledge, correct...hopefully. Even Evangelicals are opening eyes to a better ‘walk’ ..though JUST a few ...opening their eyes and I’M a STILL learning too....Thanks Rick Warren, Pope Francis, and many more...
Through good writing, gifted writers, light can shine through . And in every facet of group there’s dark people/money/times. Let the US people help pave the wave not quite as eloquently ( I wish) as Heather, Robert, Joyce...but we CAN make some difference. Thanks
I just about choked on DeSantis’ statement in Iowa this week “Greetings from the free state of Florida”. Free state?!?!?! Are you effing kidding me?!?!? Where books are being banned, speech is being limited, schools are being told what they can/cannot teach, where LGBTQ citizens are being ostracized and erased, where corporations must be careful what they say/support or be penalized, where the press is being asked to register with the state if they want to print anything about “dear leader?!?!?
Oh, and let’s not forget, where people , especially the elderly and minorities, are free to die because the “leaders” give you false information about a deadly virus. Not to mention voter suppression. That is one “free state” I personally will never set foot in again. And all of that is what we can look forward to in a so-called Christian Democracy, which has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with power.
Calling it a “free” state is very consistent with their use of hijacking words to brainwash people. They do this with everything. The human brain is vulnerable and the study of neuroscience clarifies how this works. Repeating simple phrases with positive connotations while doing the exact opposite is the trick of malice. Experts like TSnyder, RBen-Ghiat, and GLakoff have been warning us for years
Cognitive Linguist and Distinguished Professor George Lakoff speaks of repetition as one of the major practices in the “framing” that aspiring leaders, including fascists,use to bring people into their way of thinking.
If it is a"free state" does that mean it is separate from the US? If that is what he is saying , it would be like Jefferson Davis running for President.
Cathy DeSantis is reading ‘state scripts’ from George Orwell’s 1984. If you accept that black is white and white is black, whenever the state professes this, then you are DeSanitized.
There is something in my primal brain that wonders why all these crazy right, white, christian wingers don’t all just mosey on over to Hungary and love what Orban is promoting there.
DeStalin is a “joke”! “Free state”? Where does he get off calling Florida a “free state”? It’s far from it. Actually, it’s in the opposite end of the spectrum. DeStalin has made that into his own little country, and he has the state legislature snowed as well. He’s turned it into a deep red state, in more ways than one. I’m so glad I escaped from there 5 years ago. And, I’ll never, ever, call Florida “home” ever again.
Anyone want to know what this country will look like if he’s elected as president. Take a good, hard, long, look at Florida. Then ask yourself, is this how I want to live? Is this the true United States of America? Answer: No, and NO!
DeStalin has stripped citizens of the right to vote, taken freedoms away every step of the way, refused people the right to live their lives as they see fit, deprived a true education of our young people, and threatened educators with prison if they refused to confirm to his way of thinking. Now, I ask you. Just exactly who does this remind you of from our history?
Mary Magdalene, through a brilliant methodology, has kept Jesus, and his somewhat forgiving approach followed by (not many) alive for 2000 years. Not a bad accomplishment for a woman that lived 2000 years ago in a highly Patriarchal society.
Mike The early Catholic Church transformed Mary Magdalene—who was extremely close to Jesus and, in the Gospels, discovered that his body was missing—into a prostitute within the first several hundred years. Not so good.
The whole story of how Mary Magdalene was turned into a prostitute by the early Christian church is horrible. This whole persona was created primarily to be the Yin to the Blessed Virgin Mary's Yang. She was portrayed as the opposite of the pure, unspotted virgin...she was a sinner who could repent. We don't actually know all that much about her, truth be told. I've always wondered if the early church made sure any other information about her was destroyed in order to foist their constructed version of her into doctrine. Those monks transcribing texts in scriptoria in the Dark and Middle Ages pulled did a lot of untold damage...
Bruce An interesting ying/yang story. I had the impression that the Virgin Mary was not highlighted by the Catholic Church until about the 11th century, when there was an image-forming campaign to highlight Mary as the Mother of God. I noticed this in the artifacts displayed in Kenneth Clark’s Civilisation. The image of Mary was intended to emphasize the ‘family news’ of Catholics while, of course, even today the Vatican considers women as second class.
I think the 10th, 11th centuries was when the real "cult" around the BVM got going...creating an "ideal" Mother of God, giving birth, but never having been defiled, and then becoming a model for women, which was of course totally impossible for them to emulate. If you've not read it, I highly recommend "Alone of All Her Sex: The Myth and Cult of the Virgin Mary", by Marina Warner. It was published 40 years ago, but is still very relevant today. It gives the whole historical context of BVM and how the "cult" came to be. In my own experience of having sung so much Medieval and Renaissance vocal music dedicated to Mary, I always noted that as a body of music it represents some of the THE most beautiful music to come from this period. Quite simply, composers were essentially writing "love" music in the guise of religious music, some of it at times even verging on the erotic. Warner's book reinforces this and shows how it was possible. Also, music written for the plethora of other female saints and martyrs can be show to have similarities to secular love music. Anyway, the Warner book is a must read, now in paperback. Highly recommended.
Magdalene's main story was preserved for some reason and that's all that matters.
She went to a tomb of a dead man. Angels came and told her Jesus was arisen. Somehow, Magdalene came up with an arisen Jesus (that the disciples did not initially recognize).
It's the details of her earlier life before she showed up in the Gospels that are basically unknown and that's what I was talking about. Trying to infer she was a prostitute came about long after the Resurrection.
This happened even before the monks in the middle ages. The early church fathers are responsible for a lot of the damage. The far right zealots of today remind me of them....destroy anything that does not fit the patriarchal model.
I keep thinking about W saying something about "laser-like focus." And I thought he had a point. Whoever has laser-like focus, will win. My thinking is that the narcissists, the psychopaths, the dictators always have laser-like focus because they don't have a conscience to distract them. Liberals don't have laser-like focus because they care, they understand ramifications and downsides, unless they are a narcissistic liberal. I have to think about that but it might be an oxymoron.
Well, I've known narcissists who played at being seen as progressive liberals for as long as they could pull it off. And some progressive liberals who could be pretty short-sighted about things like unexpected ramifications. But, yeah, not the same thing.
He did, Steve. And she snapped back and changed him. She said, "Yes but even the dogs eat the crumbs from the master's table." Or words to that effect. She turned it back on him in a most clever way. She woke him up. How could he be so unable to imagine a Syrophoenician woman to be someone he ought to care about? Think about the fact that for Christians, Jesus is both human and divine. If we ponder what that means (and its impossible paradox is worth contemplating for a lifetime), we have to leave open a door to thinking of him as, in fact, human. We humans are shaped by the prejudices of our cultures and it can take a woman dismissed from the dominant culture to change minds and hearts. Sojourner Truth, Rosa Parks, Fanny Lou Hamar. . .
Oh, Melinda. This is certainly where the story turns for there is much more than what our eyes can read. In this, Jesus knew the culture in which he lived and as a human, he embraced what he came to do, to fulfill the law. The law forbid him to never associate with the "other", the Gentiles. And yet he drove the Pharisees nuts by dining with sinners and prostitutes and in those moments radical inclusivity was introduced. His 1st response was so those he was with wouldn't be offended by what he actually did-acknowledged her faith, granted her request and healed her daughter. I would offer to you to try seeing this story through the lens of Jesus caring for both, those he came for, the Jews, and the Gentiles in that very same human/divine moment. And that the fact that she was a women isn't lost on me.
This is specifically why the bible is easily used to justify whatever one wishes it to justify as it can be interpreted in countless diverging ways. The bible is a handpicked collection of stories (leaving out many that don’t align with a chosen narrative), includes anonymous authors that contradict each other, and without generous reinterpretation promotes a host of immoral and unethical behaviors and beliefs. The right consists of christians who can be controlled by dishonest leaders because they use the bible to justify the horrors they accept as necessary.
“Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
All that said, we probably do need a 2-prong approach to pushing back this rapidly growing wave of anti-democracy: continuing dueling christian interpretations as well as highlighting the consequences of destroying democracy’s guardrails that will result in all Americans losing freedoms and rights we count on. This needs to be focused directly at middle and lower income families who will suffer the most.
Johanna, I appreciate you mentioning narrative in your response. The democratic guardrails also referenced lean into on what this country is founded upon- the narrative of a Judeo-Christian ethic as well as the constitution. All that does is package up all the "otherness" and transport it century after century, millennia after millennia up into today. The racism, the sexism, the white supremacy is all one big fat sandwich being served daily.
As so much in the Bible, likely apocryphal. But for a reason: it is an excellent example of the use of metaphor to teach that change is possible, that even Jesus as messiah was capable both of being wrong, and of learning from the least among us. And changing as a result. Thank you, Melinda, for reminding us of this important lesson.
Anne When I was in Sunday School I was not taught the difference between the Old and the New Testament. Later I learned that the New focused on Jesus Christ, love, and forgiveness, while the god of the Old Testament could Vicious and vengeful.
Mmm, yes. As a child I was taught that the Old Testament was history, and that the New Testament was about God sending his only child to live among people and teach them the way to salvation, that being "Do unto others...."
I was taught that in Jewish tradition, many stories were not meant to be taken literally: they were metaphors for things that needed to be remembered but dangerous to speak aloud literally. I cannot say anything about the truth of this, not being Jewish, but this is what Jewish friends explained to me, and I've read something about it in some of my explorations. So I came to understand that the Old Testament has to be read in a different way than the New Testament.
I learned the new teachings were taught orally for a long time before being written down by people who did not know Jesus and whose stories varied. Jesus spoke Aramaic, while the writers spoke and wrote Greek that was later translated into various other languages. That many versions of stories existed and there was not agreement about which were valid representations of what Jesus taught and did. That some of the tellers and writers were women who were ignored until copies of their stories were found among other spiritual writings. That the stories existed independently from each other until followers began to gather stories they believed were about Jesus together, with different groups often gathering different stories. That the time came when it became politically expedient to choose some stories to be printed together as dogma, and so there came to be a number of different books of scripture (scripture=writing; bible=book) that scholars are still trying to sort out.
A friend who was a pastor and biblical scholar (PhD), as well as a social activist, told me it is likely that the person represented as Jesus was probably a compendium of a number of different people whose stories came to be connected through oral transmission. Recently someone published a book claiming that Jesus had been a Buddhist monk. This is actually a belief I've held for a long time: Buddhist teaching had been spreading in all directions from India for centuries, and in the area we call the middle east, there had been a number of teachers going back at least 200 years before Jesus whose teachings reflected buddhist philosophy- as did Jesus.
I don't claim to be any kind of authority on the history of Christianity, but that is a kind of brief map of part of my journey, based on scholarly and spiritual study. What the Old Testament is and what it means depends on how it is defined. The Torah is five books, and as the old sayings goes "all the is commentary- that is, interpretation. What books are included in the Christian version of "Old Testament" depends on the sect. Ditto the New Testament. And the meaning of both depends on what kind of assumptions one brings to reading.
That was just an allegory like the parables to show the point of God's mercy and love for anyone who has faith in God. The Israelites were the 1st people to have a covenant with El Shaddai, living God on high, thanks to father Abraham who is the founder for not only those of the Jewish faith, but also the Christian and Muslim faithful.
The SyroPhoenician woman was only asking for God's blessing to be part of Jesus's Kingdom of Heaven. Our Lord just chided her gently with the promise of God's covenant fulfilled 1st to the Jewish people as God Almighty had always promised. She was showing her true faith in the son of God by saying that even the dogs live off the scraps of the children, which shows that God loves and accepts everyone who has faith in Him. That's also why the blessings of Christianity passed also unto the Gentiles thru the ministry of St Paul, but that's a further development of why we're all God's children if we want to believe in His everloving salvation.
It is WAY more important to explain to folks why they are at the edge of going to hell than to explain why acceptance, love and forgiveness make sense.
Because, when you scare the shite out of people, they listen much better.
I always like something I saw about 25 years ago in Knoxville, TN. On the Alcoa highway going south to the airport someone had painted a well done little sign which said HELL IS HOT complete with flames painted at the bottom. It was up for several months in this wooded section of the road. Then one night someone put up another little sign underneath that said "So was your wife". Two days later both signs were gone.
MIKE ! It does take BALANCE, and the Wisdom, of the HOLY SPIRIT, to Draw MANKIND to the LOVE! of GOD! GOD LOVES! But! GOD, is Also JUST! Teaching FEAR, causes MANKIND to not UNDERSTAND GODS Desire that HE would WANT All MANKIND, to be SAVED! Thats why GOD, Gave MANKIND FREEWILL !!
Oh, they exist, and there are even some here on LAAF. I am a sort of agnostic Quaker/Buddhist, but when I was a child, my lapsed Mormon mother sent me to Sunday School at a small nearby church, after checking to make sure that the teachers weren't hell-and-brimstone types.
I loved it: we did Bible related crafts meant to understand the culture of the time, and heard bible stories (complete with felt board!) about Jesus and his teachings through example, sang joyful songs, some worshipful, some not. My mother instructed me to come straight home after, and not to ever go to the service right after. She had heard them calling out in response, and feared that they might have the fire-and-brimstone mentality.
But one Sunday, we children were gathered into the grown-up church "because we have a special preacher visiting us and we want you to be able to listen too". Me: curious and always tending to see what the grown-ups were doing; of course I went. The special teacher turned out to be a small black man, the first black person I'd seen since my family left Portland after WW2. The congregation itself was mostly white, but now sprinkled with black faces: the people who were traveling with the preacher.
It was wonderful. He almost sang his sermon, his voice was at times soft and gentle, other times ringing out. He spoke of joy and hope and love and service to others. He spoke at one point to us children, gently letting us know that we might stumble at times on our path, but to just get up and take the next step. People sang out and called out. During the songs, they sometimes danced, clapped their hands, laughed. It was a revealing moment and it has stayed with me all these years and still informs who I am.
When I went home and told my mom, she was at first upset and I think a little angry. "But, Mommy", I told her, " It wasn't like that. It was all about Loooooove." My parents listened to me describe the sermon and how people were happy and singing and amen-ing. And changed their minds. That winter I got to play Mary in the Christmas pageant, and my parents came to watch.
They stayed apostate Mormons, and I stayed the inquisitive little girl that grew up to explore all kinds of things. I still love old-fashioned gospel music, and have been known to get caught up in the music at gospel events. Yet I turned into an introspective, questioning spiritual agnostic who prefers a quiet meditative Quaker meeting (as opposed to "church Quakers" (we have many flavors). We talk in our Friendly Forums about the same kind of concerns we express here on LAAF, and are active in various causes and social concerns. One of the delights is learning how many other Quakers are here as well, and I suspect many people with Buddhist leanings (even if they don't call it that).
Lynn, they're out there. You just have to search a little bit to find them. They tend to eschew the spotlight and just set about doing the work Christ exhorts them to do, without calling attention to themselves. It's the loud-mouthed evangelists out for themselves who tend to suck all the oxygen out of the room.
It seems to me that a large number of “Christians in Name Only” exist as the “Evangelical Right”; professing an allegiance to The Lord while ignoring his actual message in their zeal to remake society in their own image by brute force. The Power of Christ was his Word and his humanity toward “the least of us”. Where does one find that in Orban, CPAC, Evangelicals, Putin or the Murdoch Empire?
You don’t. Orban et al’s use of the word Christianity is a blasphemy. It should be pointed out each time they invoke it
Christian Nationalism according to people who study it, like PRRI & WHITEHEAD, it has very little to do with the actual message of Christ. The studies point out that there is a strong correlation between white Protestant evangelicals & CN, not all evangelicals are CN. Christian Nationalism calling themselves Christian's is like the Maga calling themselves Republicans. The PRRI has a good summary of how & what CN thinks/believes. Robert Jones is CEO & author of several books re CN
It blows me away ! P56 in Taking American Back talks about Jeffress a minister'sermon that was devoid of Christian values & full of political misinformation & literally a call to arms
In my kid days, on the back of comic books were ads that promoted art schools; Draw Lincoln, send in your picture, win awards…. Or in Mad Magazine, “learn brain surgery by correspondence school”. Matchbook covers had “Divinity School” quick study “get your certified Minister’s badge now”
Kinda makes ya wonder, huh? Sign up now for the DJT University of Theology
Thank you for your first sentence (and the others, too!). I'm a minister (ret.) and when I hear "Christian Democracy" used by the right wingers (in Hungary or the U.S.) or DeSantis et al talking about "Christian Values" in their very unChristian attacks, I am sickened and angered. If I were DeSantis's pastor (or rabbi or imam), I would go to his home or office and perform an exorcism on him. Sorry to rant!
Thank you for your perspective, Robert. Should you need backup for that exorcism, I’d like to join you. I will bring my Star of David to burn a hole in his heart.
I think it is important for people to learn about CN in that not all Christians or evangelicals are CN. The podcast by PRRI &Brookings has some very interesting info of the break down of belief in various religious groups.
Totally agree. As an example, I find myself explaining to friends (mainly non-religious ones) that evangelicals cannot be lumped into one group. There are the unfaithful ones who totally embraced and kissed the ring of Trump (or a part of his anatomy). Then there those I think who are faithful ones whose lives are lived firmly grounded in the Sermon on the Mount. Disclaimer: I am not an evangelical!
As a non-Christian, I would ask whether any serous person really believes that Jesus would affirm the ideas of the “Christian” nationalists? (Not Christian democracy—-in post-war Europe Christian democratic parties were the liberal answer to Communism.)
Oh, and has anyone pointed out to Viktor Orban that his Magyar ancestors were immigrants to what is now Hungary?
Jon Jesus would be excluded from evangelical ‘Christianity’ and Eisenhower would be excluded from today’s ‘Republican Party.’
As someone who had the privilege of lunching with David Ben-Gurion in 1954 and then spending over an hour listening to him in his book-filled study, I believe that BG would be banned (for good reason) from Netanyahu’s cabinet. I am now embarrassed that a tree was planted for me in Israel.
My opinion from observation is that No. The born again Christians do not need to reconcile what Jesus would do in our current situation. To them the end times are upon us. The Christians are going to heaven and the others are not. Jesus would approve because those people who are damned should have listened when we told them they had to say the sentence “I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.” But they didn’t listen and now there is nothing we can do to save them. But we’ll pray for them .🙏🏼
Well, all of those good "Christians" better run up to the head of the line on Judgment Day, because if they get behind us Jews they're going to wait through eternity while we argue with God.
300,000 Iraqis dead “from direct war-related violence caused by the U.S., its allies, the Iraqi military and police, and opposition forces.”
7,000 U.S. military personnel dead
8,000 Pentagon contractors dead
30,000 U.S. veterans have committed suicide
Today, the coffers of the Iraqi state treasury are empty, even though the country should have earned $500 billion in oil revenues since 2003. Corruption and inefficiency handcuff the country.
For the U.S.: $6 trillion spent even before the ISIL campaign of 2014-2019. Without the sums squandered in Iraq, our national debt would still be below our annual gross national product, putting us in a much more favorable economic position in 2023. As in today’s Russia, in the zeros of this century a war mentality fostered a fierce intolerance of dissent and of difference on the right, which is still unfolding.”
For me Christian Nationalism is the clearest explanation of what is being expressed by what I am calling RINOS as they no longer represent the values of the GOP. Staying under cover as R, it keeps those who vote R rather than issues & values , in the flock into the cult. PRRI has a website where the thinking of CN is discussed as well as their research. Andrew Whitehead has TAKING AMERICA BACK FOR GOD. TEACHING CRITICAL THINKING by Bell Hooks gives some insight into understanding CN disruption of schools. It is mental gymnastics to try to understand how far & foreign & disturbing this ideology is.
Christianity has never been Christian. By CE 60, Nero was already burning pitch-coated Christians at his infamous Garden Party, alongside other "criminal elements." Christians continued to be a problem for Rome for three centuries, and arguably played a major role in its downfall. Virtually all of the slaveowners in early America were Christian. The "witchfinders" and prosecutors of "witches" based on spectral evidence (dreams) were all Christian.
Sadly, you are spot-on. During my graduate study at Seminary, I learned for the first time how the two councils (the First Council of Nicea and the Second Council of Constantinople) of The early Fathers were rife with violence and anger, each one of many sides holding that THEIR interpretation of Scripture was the correct interpretation. The Gnostic Gospels were kept out of the Canons, because the Gnostic Gospels did not reside well with the early religious patriarchs. I also learned during my graduate study what "Jesus" did and did not say, often contrary to what I was taught in Sunday School while growing up; or, how my old man decided to interpret his version of Scripture. The Rev'd Dr. Neville, Dean, Boston University School of Theology said at the beginning of his 1999 welcoming to new post-graduate students, "God is wild and cannot be fully domesticated."
Reality: Those folks are not even close to being truly Christian. They are a blood stain on the Faith, evangelicals having corrupted and contaminated the Faith in such a way that the truly devout shy away from openly claiming Christianity. The false prophets and the apostates thrive in such environs.
I meant "the term/concept" Christian is being used to hide what it actually is. I just wrote a tidbit about using one thing to hide another through shell grass roots organizations. If we argue about it, they've hidden it from us or ... I think that's the plan.
on the OR for Food and Shelter shell, we went ahead and banned 6 herbicides from public lands in the NW because our epidemiologist found all the data on cancer for them. OFS did not like that much, but we got them talking to NW Coalition for Alternatives to Pesticides by the end of it. Our project had its origins in a court case that resulted from an effort to resolve the knife and gun hostage situation some of our field people found themselves in. It was epic.
You are not the arbitrator of who is and who is not a Christian. You are making a denominational argument, one that is irrelevant to the matter at hand and entrenches Christian Supremacist ideas. Christians ARE what they do in this world. Not what you would aspire for them to be.
This framing is unhelpful. You make sectarian argument that centers you as the arbitrator of True Christianity ™️, that entrenches toxic ideas of Christian innocence and supremacy. Christians ARE what they do in this world. Not what you would aspire for them to be.
I am hardly the "arbiter" of much of anything, because I have very little power in this world to arbitrate, and I certainly cannot coerce people to my will or my viewpoint.
I CAN have observations, opinions, and arguments about a great many things, and (so far) the freedom to express them. The continuation of such freedom is precisely the point of Heather's post, and precisely what would be forbidden under Illiberal Christian society, or as I prefer to call it, Christofascism.
I am certainly not making a denominational argument. I'm quite familiar with a range of "denominations" of Christianity, both current and historical. Despite their differences, they all have in common broad and consistent deviation in practice from the teachings of Christ in the Gospels.
This is -- in my OPINION -- a direct consequence of their need to govern their congregations. The model of governance is top down, from the extreme case of the Pope and the Curia, down to the small, backwoods Fundamentalist sect that rules from the pulpit, and punishes through social shunning, gossip, and threat of expulsion from the group. One does not openly debate with ANY minister (that I am aware of) in front of the congregation.
If you want a more nuanced OPINION across a larger historical vision, read H. Richard Niehbuhr's Christ and Culture (1951).
Jm, thank you for your comment. I think I agree with you, if you mean that people are what they do not simply what they claim to be. So if Christian's don't do Christian acts, then they are not Christian? Is that agreeable? I will read your links. I am not an arbiter of who are Christians anymore than anyone is an arbiter of who I am. However to participate in society, I do observe what people do, and comment on it both when its helpful to others and when its harmful. No one should hang for my comments, nor when my comments are mutally shared among many others. However we are dealing with many current issues and situations today where groups holding out their identities by skin color, religion, gender, etc as they hang people in the media, shooting them, or withholding rights, etc. These groups do not tie their hands with self assessment and correction. I doubt we can be perfect in addressing these issues.
There is a marked and recognizable difference between people who follow Christ’s teachings in context and people who “profess” to do so, but do something else. Playing a Christian on TV is not the same actually being one
And all of these protests that "they aren't really Christians" does not even define the problem; it wrings its hands over the harm done to the name of Christianity itself.
Wait. What is this about? Oh. Trans folk, LGBTQ+ folk? They'll have to wait. The Christians need to get their terms straightened out first.
People are already dying from this wave of legislation, but it is good to know that here, we will be certain of who the good Christians are, and who the bad.
The longest, most replied-to thread here is, as far as I can tell, focused on language and who owns words.
If someone is talking about what they are doing to support the LGBTQ+ people they know, or asking what they can do, or, I don't know, referring people to trans writers who have been grappling with the problem of violence against us for decades, I have not found them yet.
Recognizing a problem exists is a bit different than defining one. Defining requires problem solving techniques typically missing from the finger pointing mob mentality we often witness
CW: violent genocide of gender-variant Native Americans
The history of European Christianity is filled with violence toward "sexual deviants", "heathens", and other perceived enemies of the Christian Church in Europe. Both Catholics and Protestants supported the genocide of Native Americans--who, in the earliest days of contact, were persecuted for allowing expression of more than the two genders that European Christianity believed that their god mandated for all human life. Non-gender conforming individuals were literally thrown to the dogs to be dismembered alive.
Does European Christianity "really" derive from their own posited Satanic forces? Does it matter when over 1000 years of persecution, first in Europe and Asia, and then in the Americas, flew under the Christian flag that is still used in American churches today?
When they come after this gender queer body, it won't matter at all whether they are really Christian or not. The tradition has already tried to kill me several times over.
This is powerful. Powerful, indeed. As an ordained graduate Seminarian, I learned a LOT about Christianity during graduate study that I otherwise would not have learned. Since then, nearly three decades later, I have weaned myself away from much of the Faith. Regarding Native Spirit in relation to homosexuals, they saw the homosexual tribal member as the "third eye": the one who lived within in the circle of the tribe while being able to see the tribe from outside the circle.
White man has left much blood across our land, whether it has been red skin, black skin or brown, our white "culture" fights to halt or eradicate difference. One need only listen to the remarks Michael Knowles made at the latest CPAC meeting: “For the good of society … transgenderism must be eradicated from public life entirely — the whole preposterous ideology, at every level.” That, indeed, echoes the Nazi philosophy and practice of "purifying" the human race. Who would be next?
In assisting doctors on some procedures, I was trained to say "correct" to affirm what part of the body they were working on rather than say "right". (To prevent mishaps ,like the wrong body part being removed, the doc would state what procedure they were about to perform on what part of the body.)
In an Ohio public school, my mother, who was left handed, was forced to write with her right hand (it never worked). The teacher would slap her knuckles with a ruler if she was caught favoring her left hand. My son-in-law is a "leftie" (in more ways than one) and one of the most talented individuals I have ever met. Nature obviously favors diversity.
The remarkable diversity of dogs is selectively brought forward from the genome of a single species. "Weeds" may produce seeds that are specialized for different germination conditions from the same individual plant. That's adaptability. That's resilience. That, combined with effort produced Bach, and Einstein and Olympian athletes.
Many species have a less creative array of behaviors than we do, the bird that mates with the bird that does the dance most perfectly, compared to the diverse forms of human courtship; but isn't that our advantage? All animals eat, but we often cook as an art. I think that at our best, we replace conformity with solidarity, and reap complications but also very rich rewards by doing so.
Obvious to anyone interested in the scientific method. Unfortunately as I’ve stated in multiple posts today, the scientific method has gotten flushed into the dustbin of history by school vouchers and Christian dominionism.
The scientific method is a meticulous way to "check it out". It is inconvenient for those who are invested in inaccuracies. Reality always wins in the end no matter what, but realities we have managed to sleepwalk into are not necessarily pretty.
You lost me somewhere in the fourth scene of the second act of a B version of The Godfather. Nice try though as it is snowing outside here as well. I hope you get around to adding some good old fashion sex and a love story leading to redemption of the entire mob family. Then, maybe serving them all up with the fishes in bullet proof vests will make sense to me. I enjoyed the diversion.
“Christians” eagerly await the return of Christ. I hope he gets here soon and straightens these conflicted followers out— again arriving as non-white, maybe enjoying a little lipstick with his long hair. I eagerly await, too.
Having grown up in an East Texas, Protestant church, and having been imbued in the "end of times apocalypse" hypotheses when I left, I can say:
During the "end of times", in the Protestant telling, not much good is going to happen. That's why all the white Christians are buying AR15's. Apparently, during the "end of times" the 10 Commandments will be suspended and killing people will be OK.
As someone who has experienced first hand how "Christianity" operates (there are quote marks around "Christianity" for a reason), I understand your obligatory "not all" here. If Mike S. had said "white Christion nationalists" would it feel like less of a "ridiculous and insulting statement"? What Mike S. describes as his experience of "white Christian" religion is being something so utterly un-"Christian"-like that is (hopefully and apparently) completely antithetical to you experience as a "Christian".
Religion is a man-made construct to help people try and explain both the unexplainable and (at least so far, but science is working on it) unknowable. It has been used as a weapon throughout history, and is being used as such today.
So yeah, some of us look in at Christianity and do not see anything other than malice and control.
Of course you are absolutely right, Elizabeth. It would be interesting to know exactly how many who fly under the banner of Christianity DO own an AR-15 though wouldn’t it?
You mean Pompous wants to make war to bring on the Apocalypse, Rapture and End Times? Good gravy, what a complete tool! What makes him think he is among the "righteous", I wonder.
He lost a ton of weight that he carried on his shoulders so now he thinks he’s Atlas, must hold the world in his creepy hands. Can’t stomach him and his lies!
If patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel, religion is a close second-to-last.
The Trump/Putin/Orbán Axis enthusiastically combines both.
The recent emergence of this neo-Christian nationalism, to my mind, underscores what is at stake in Ukraine’s struggle against Putin’s invasion, and why it is important for democracies everywhere, including ours, that an independent, democratic Ukraine ultimately prevails. From this point of view, it also becomes self-evident why US conservatives want to cut off US support to Volodymyr Zelenskyy and thus give Ukraine to Putin. We would do well to remember that Adolf Hitler had many US supporters, and still does to this day.
In my experiences with scoundrels their very last refuge is a big lie quietly spoken. Oh yes.
This lie is backed by either patriotism or religion or both. But it’s mainly backed by reminding the hopeful onlookers of their unfair treatment and victimhood and how so many people are laughing at them behind their backs. Oh yes, everyone sees it, they say.
Indeed! Victims, innocent, hard-working, morally pure, victims whose problems are all someone else’s fault. Jews, liberals, people of a different color, anyone different from them are causing all the “problems” in the world.
Good, Ralph. These so called victims are often the same people who refuse to be wrong about anything. And they want a savior, not simply good advice and some help.
At 89 I have lived in a country and world that has been ‘volatile’ about LGBTQ. In my early years being gay or lesbian was considered ‘dreadful’ by many people and institutions. In the US government, being suspected of being gay was cause for dismissal.
In my innocence, I didn’t realize that one of my roommates at college was gay. It didn’t matter to me.
The Catholic Church was especially horrified by ‘gay,’ though, in historical retrospect, the lives of a number of priests did not seem straight.
In Hollywood being publicly gay (or lesbian) was a major PR no no. During my years in Egypt, I was puzzled by the public hand holding of young men in Cairo. Again, no big deal.
Fast forwarding to present day, individual sexuality remains on the front burner with various pseudo-religious groups including evangelical ‘Christian’s’ and the old-men-dominated-Catholic Church.
Medical evidence has highlighted the complexity of ‘transgender,’ and being gay or lesbian is broadly acknowledged as ‘natural,’ by many. This has become an anti-rallying cry by what I characterize as the non-Christian-white-male-superiority right.
I say ‘non-Christian, because such intolerance profoundly conflicts with Jesus Christ’s adherence to love, inclusiveness, and forgiveness.
The Conservative Political Action Conference (CRAP) reflects this overwhelming white-male bigotry. Meanwhile, we have a gay man in President Obama’s cabinet and various gay and lesbian individuals elected to Congress and to major state and city positions.
I find this current political focus on fear and bigotry despicable. It seems integral to the false facts of the chauvinistic political right and is a political springboard for presidential candidate DeSantis.
Maybe it’s the time we were born failed to develop an aversion to gay people. I’m 88 years old and as I passed through my teens boyhood friends were identified as queer. I was not close to them and never thought them as dangerous.
As an adult my more religious relatives and friends assured me gay people were dangerous.
I concluded years ago it was just a religious thing. Now it’s political and I think it’s become a Republican strategy to identify two minority castes people of color and now LGBTQIA+ as people to deisdain.
It is the same strategy of the Nazi’s to assure the majorities there were inferior groups among them that were to be targeted as lesser human beings.
Lincoln was right there is no replacement for equality of humanity. None whatsoever.
All life in all time appears to be a constant ebb and flow of conflict between power structures or belief structures. Every other generation believes these political struggles are new and unique to their time. But they’ve been like this from jump. Seems like all of history can be explained by who we are right now as a people. 45% fearful and 55% loving.
Ask yourself how badly do you want to walk on your fellow man. Ask yourself how badly you want to be walked on. The answer will come to you which camp you belong in. There ain’t no wiggle room here.
I have posted this before, but it seems a vividly stated ground rule: "As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy. Whatever differs from this, to the extent of the difference, is no democracy. - Lincoln) Those who would be masters to lord it over others seem to be the bane of our species' history. Yes, there is a need for governance, but governments deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed is a whole different deal. Apart from a foundation of universal, unalienable rights and responsibilities, only pathological narcissists think the whole world should value and behave only what they do.
Lincoln had a gift for that. The scientific method delivers High Definition clarity for our intelligence. Poetry often delivers HD clarity for our sentient experience of life.
"Let me make the songs of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws." - Unknown
Well, "Ask yourself how badly do you want to walk on your fellow man.".
There is a woman on my street that absolutely thinks I should not be living on her street. Period. She is kinda vocal about it, hence, my knowledge of her perspective.
I can't say I would not mind walking on her to be completely honest. But, thus far, at least, I have managed to avoid doing so. My wife keeps reminding me that I will instantly, upon making that walk, be placed in the Federal Penitentiary system.
No one said it was going to be easy, Mike. I’ve been shot at, stabbed, choked and beaten unconscious. I love my new teeth. Life is not a cakewalk. I'm not complaining but I am not a Patsy either. I am aware that others are far more damaged. It’s a brutal species and we have each other’s backs when we are at our best. Your neighbor disgusts me. Think like Dr. King. Think like Nelson Mandela. Think like Sister Incarnata.
I’m sorry you are having to endure this blatant discrimination, Mike. Most people are on your side not hers for whatever that’s worth. I wish you strength in the face of her blind hatred.
🤣....judging always has me looking in the mirror and slapping myself in the face..as a Christian I feel Christ loved even the sinner, walked forgiveness , hated the sin but not who committed it..I have to ask myself in that moment of frequent judgement ..’have you ever done that?’ ..always checking my own back yard and lots of prayer to be ..better. Sometimes the humor is self-reflection , like autocorrect excepting today IPad often puts words in my fingers I didn’t intend...it’s certainly a different era..not like the deliverance from Rock and Roll , right? Here in WV we say Bless your(our) Hearts ...and alls forgiven, Mike😉
Mike S - the fact you have to think about it, and the fact you listen to your wife and thus do not, is proof you are not one of those who "walks on." You're in agreement with Clarence Darrow, when he said "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great relish."
When I was commuting to my university years ago (I lived at home) I befriended an older Hispanic woman in my program. We drove together to save on gas but more for the monthly parking fees. She and her husband were both 2nd generation. They were good people. Her husband's hobby was to tend to their vegetable garden in their small inner city yard. She told me that the block racist insisted that they were "Italian" so she could be a recipient of his tomatoes, zucchini, etc. They both rolled their eyes on it and let it go.
Some seem drawn to a society in which people get to walk on each other (in layers) and others to a society where we stand together, not just as robots in a totalitarian regime, but as diversely oriented and talented individuals, collectively determining our own fate as a society and a species. Of, by and for all of the people.
Mike often refers to his "non-white sounding surname" and in other posts has articulated that he is also "white appearing". He also lives in one of the most segregated areas in the north.
When are floridians going to expel desantis? Oh wait, the vocal minority adores him. The silent majority does what? Looks for a party leader? Before the party itself is banned?
...and republicans MAGA? What happened anyhow? How did we get from Eisenhower to Trump/DeSantis/electiondeniers...I’m sure someone’s written a book, right?
When EU is sure it does not have to expel Poland as well; and can ignore the thin margin democracy has in Germany and France. To continue thought games: why not give Hungary back to Russia, where it wants to be, in exchange for Ukraine?
Escape while you can, before the border walls are built and the SS troops with their brothers, the Gestapo go on patrol. Your papers!! Ve must zee your Papers! Ve Vill Talk unt you vill Lizzen!! I couldn't pass up the opportunity to chime in.
I have had several unpleasant encounters over the years with (SS, Gestapo-like) Border Control men over the years. I'm a 75+, white, soft-speaking, well-behaved woman, so the treatment of POC has to be much worse. That said, the last time I crossed from Mexico, the border guard was smiling and friendly! I often vascilate between 'stay and fight for democracy' and 'flight to somewhere else'! I do know that younger people than I am will stay and fight and that heartens me.
It turns out that "flight to somewhere else" may not be doable without at least half a million dollars and or a valued skill set.
I'm in Oregon, and I've been thinking about it because one of the GOP sponsored fake grass roots groups wants to extend the boundaries of Idaho over 2/3 of Oregon's land mass. That's the part that gets treated as flyover country because the illusion is it is "RED". And it can be, but my county alone is 1/3 red, 1/3 blue, 1/3 Indie. The overt reason is so GOP folks can be "comfortable". But watch what Idaho is doing - no legal weed, abortion banning, drag and LGBTQ banning, and voting in favor of taking over Oregon so GOP officials can spend tax $ for political ends. Oh, and we get to have sales tax with it. Part of me wants to run to a less crooked part of the state.
I am shocked to think one state might increase its boundaries over another one, surely not? What a strange country this has become, and so divided. Putin must be rubbing his hands in glee.
Perhaps we should rename the state Flouride, and claim that flouride is not just added to tap water, but is in the very air. That might be enough to drive the paranoid MAGAts to abandon the state. Of course, such an exodus might be bad for the sane folk of Idaho...
As Idaho adjacent, there are very very very few of those. Think Aryan nation HQ, and a former GOP Representative among other officials who verbally said "shoot all the feds!" (As one, I have some good death threat stories from my friends stuck there.)
The battle lines are now very clear...and drag queens, gender fluid and trans people are now the focus of the war over "freedom". Everyone else has had their spotlight time as the target of conservative fear about granting full and equal freedom under the law...black folks, women, gay people...on and on...and now it's come down to the people who were invisible or on the fringe. They are not some new lib creation to vex the Orban's or Gov Lee's of the world. They have been there forever.
Because Mike they are the designated lead in. Once breached all other undesirables will be drawn in and dispatched until no more resist. That is global history. A loose thread from which to unravel a nation.
I hear you...but I do believe this "group" is now being targeted because they are the last bunch of "others" left to attack here. They have been around forever...why now ?
Why? Did you never rope a hippie and cut his hair? (Of course you didn’t ) why target the insane? Why target the deformed? Why target women? Why target other faiths? Because it’s a great way to start. Don’t worry we’ll get around to all of them once we are sure to succeed! We’ve tested the water with immigrants as well and so far too much resistance there. Seems like suddenly everyone’s a damn immigrant. Let’s go back now after those sex perverts they are on their own no one cares about them. God is on our side you should be too.
Pat, I was the hippie...I'd like to see busloads of Dolly impersonators, led by Dolly herself take a peaceful tour of the TN Statehouse with rainbow flags and lets see how Tucker Carlson edits that.
Especially the TN statehouse. Lt Gov Randy McNally made the national news this week. Pictures of the governor in a cheerleader’s outfit in high school (“that’s different”) who signed the strict drag show prohibition along with no treatment for transgender youth. The most restrictive anti-abortion laws in the state—no exceptions—in which McNally told me physicians are required to render “medically necessary” treatment. He obviously doesn’t know what’s in the bill he supported. And of course we have our own publicly ridiculed Marsha Blackburn. Go Vols ❗️
For many years they have been doing "Womanless Pageants" largely in the south in High Schools. Where was the outrage about grooming children? I did some research on the history of drag for a project and came across this stuff. I'm going to write about it on my substack page and post some of the photos...very similar stuff to Gov Lee.
As a Baltimorean, I have to laugh that John Waters musical Hairspray is now mainstream. Divine would roll over laughing that John is "accepted" by the middle class.
And because the 2016 election of a pro-Orban, pro-Putin Party and the gradual development of their own major propaganda outlet gave them buckets and buckets of confidence. Their fascism is winning they see no reason to hold back
Mike W, I realize that not all conservatives are people of faith, nor are all liberals athiest but at least, in the Christian faith, Christ came to give His life that those who believed in Him would live a new life of love and not be bound by evil (whatever form in which you may consider evil). He came to free sinners, the disobedient ones like myself. Yes, I am still disobedient but I experience His "calling to me in such love, I have to ay least when I am wrong. What I am trying to say is that we should love wvweyone and leave th judgement to God.
Emily I hear you and I appreciate your observation and your belief. Rereading my statements, I feel my judgement was political "judgement" when I talk about battle lines. We all worship, (or not) in a lot of different ways. I don't want people judging me and I don't want to be judging others. Jesus is an incredible teacher no matter your faith tradition. I had an interesting exchange with some conservative Christians who were producing an event I was working in DC on the Mall. I asked them how they could support Trump given the things he says and does. They replied that he supported "their" issues, especially on abortion and that they forgive. I replied that there are other republicans, like Pence, who support them, without the baggage. They basically replied that the end justified the means. I'm not sure Christ would buy that. I seem to remember an issue with the money changers in the Temple.
I hear you, but I do believe that here in the US these folks are getting the brunt of this focus right now because the far right has run out of "other" groups to bully now that gay folks can get married and are seen in TV ads kissing. They have to have someone to fear. Someone to be hostile towards...since racism and gay bashing aren't cool any more. Let's beat up men in dresses...because they are "grooming our children". Who knew that Flip Wilson aka Geraldine Jones...or Jonathan Winters aka Maude Friket were "groomers" right there on prime time TV. I guess that's what inspired RuPaul and all of the Drag Race contestants. We should ask.
I think their choice of targets is partly because attacking LGBTQIA+ folk is sexier than attacking black folks. And sex sells, especially to those with a religio-erotic fetish, like so many of these religious zealots.
As a target choice, advocacy for the LG...A+ tends to split the other progressive groups. Just look to the treatment of gay men in black churches that are otherwise paragons of civil rights support.
There is also the possibility, which I've not tried to confirm, that the LG...A+ group, for reasons that would include the problems arising from discrimination, tends to be less likely to vote. That, plus the fact that the gay community itself is split over support for transgenderism, makes them less likely to fight back effectively.
The Rightwingers are shaping this fight over gender rights as the theme for the next election cycle and no, there's nothing random about it. Bashing gays is sexy, in a weird way, splits the opposition, and they are the politically weakest of the modern minorities. What's not to like?
That's all true. But my sense here is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". This attack by the far right may just pull all of these folks together in this election cycle...and I'm sure the savvy GOP political consultants, the Lee Atwaters of today, figure the trans support group is relatively small, so they make a good target...even better than Willie Horton. They will find the most outrageous drag performance clips with children in the audience and play them over & over. But if the rest of us rise up together in appropriate indignation it turns the tables or at least brings this to a tactical draw. It's too bad Flip Wilson died, Geraldine would be a great spokesperson.
Trans folk are being attacked because we do not have the power in the marketplace that LGB folk have. In the 1980s it became clear to me that once it was more obvious that gays and lesbians had money to spend, corporate America would put up the rainbow flags and discrimination would be bought out.
I'm not at all a fan of capitalism, but in this one instance, the market actually did something admirable: it showed that buying power can purchase at least a semblance of equality.
Unfortunately, trans folk, especially trans women and transfemme people, are much less likely to live above the poverty level in most states. Anyone who does not pass as cisgendered and who does not live stealth--that is, not disclosing that they are trans--is in an economically precarious spot in the US, where there have been so few protections against job discrimination for the obviously gender-variant.
That and our exceedingly small percentage of the overall population (I think less than 0.3% in most estimates I recall, but don't quote me on that) mean that we don't have a whole lot of power in cultural or market terms.
Erik that's a sad but true observation of our business society at large, not just about trans folks. The same thing happens in the "disease" market. Folks who have name that ailment and are in a small group don't get the research and medications they need because it doesn't pay for the corporations to pay attention to it. Unless the Govt or academia step in, nothing happens. Actually the same thing is true of any product. If there are not enough buyers, it goes away. I sympathize with you. All of this conversation is really making me consider a documentary on the topic. Awareness may help some. Please check out some of my recent writings on my page. I'd be curious to hear your reflections and input from your POV.
Amazing Lincoln, and yet his party has abandoned any pretense of equality for all. One wonders if they, like Rupert’s minions, don’t really believe their own bull Schitt, but use it as a means to power and “green.” Of course, there are many who love to hate, especially among religious cretins, and their bull Schitt just is what makes their hearts sing. I know them, we all do. “Republican” is now what they tried to make “liberal,” the most egregious epithet…
Fascism rules the fools, call them what they are proud to be.
There is a lot of reference to Lincoln here and in many other discussions lately. Inevitably those discussions focus on the Declaration of Independence. It is worth reading “Lincoln at Gettysburg: The Words That Remade America,” a book by Gary Wills. The text maintains that in the Gettysburg Address, Lincoln refocused the nation on the principle of equality as stated in the Declaration as opposed to the primacy of property found in the Constitution.
Jeri, you are correct! When those of us who have received the love of Christ and supposedly have had our hearts changed....first of all due to realizing and admitting to the wrong thoughts and actions we have participated in ...... then condemn others we are the worst humans of all.
It is heartrending to me to see hatred spoken towards our fellowman when we should share the GRACE we have received....not earned due to ANYTHING we have done. Is it so hard to get to know one another as fellow humans.....to care for one another.....not for the sake of control but to live together on this planet helping one another. Each of us have gifts to share that will make our homes, our neighborhoods, our country and our world a better place.
Let's examine how we are being distractd by those who want to control us so that they can have dominion..LOVE is a much more powerful tool for making life better for everyone and everything.
Let's keep working at loving our world our family and our neighbors and not stop. Loving is WORK....it is sacrificial.....but we can do it together.
“Once you give up the principle of equality, you have given up the whole game. You have admitted the principle that people are unequal, and that some people are better than others. Once you have replaced the principle of equality with the idea that humans are unequal, you have stamped your approval on the idea of rulers and subjects. At that point, all you can do is to hope that no one in power decides that you belong in the lesser group.”
Yes-but America gave up the principle of equality long ago when slavery based on skin color became the law of the land.
There’s only the human race but now we have “races” based on skin color with darker skinned people defined as inferior. Even the term “minority” is related to skin color. Some people are “major” and some are “minor”. We’re counting and categorizing people on the basis of skin color.
Targeting “transgenderism” does not mean they’ve given up on “other” groups. Once America reckons with its past, maybe we can flip the script and get back to the principle of equality that was written in our founding documents.
I find it odd that those who dislike or in ‘ways’ show distinct for the dark skinned or darker skinned yet go to the tanning booth to look the same 🤔 boggles me brain!
Gina, yes we need a deep reckoning with our past. A good honest history curriculum would help. Honest films help a lot. I like your "major" and "minor" observation. I'm working on a new documentary that I hope will shed some honest light on equality and racial justice, titled "Monumental Struggle". There's going to be an announcement on March 20, so you've heard it here first. Check out my page, there will be updates.
Thanks Mike-I’ll definitely check it out. I’m familiar with the issues you’ve highlighted about the statues in Maryland. Your work with film is important-images teach even more than words sometimes.
Lincoln went on: “I should like to know if taking this old Declaration of Independence, which declares that all men are equal upon principle and making exceptions to it…where will it stop?”
It will stop as it stopped in Germany in a war that thankfully, we won. Knowles and people like him would like to see this country, that belongs to all of us, populated by Christian whites. Jews, Muslims, blacks, native Americans and anyone who is not “straight”, need not apply.
"That is the issue that will continue in this country when these poor tongues of Judge Douglas and myself shall be silent. It is the eternal struggle between these two principles -- right and wrong -- throughout the world. They are the two principles that have stood face to face from the beginning of time, and will ever continue to struggle. The one is the common right of humanity and the other the divine right of kings." -Lincoln
Some people are passionately drawn to a hierarchical society, even if their rank in it (outside the inevitable "untouchable" class) is fairy low. Others passionately strive for egalitarianism. Both groups seem to find the other repellent, but it's not a matter of "both sides" when it comes to human misery, Real liberal democracies are not trying to force the whole of humanity into Procrustean Beds, nor, to the degree to which they truly embrace universal rights, committing genocide.
I appreciate the reference to Procrustes! I have a feeling that under the American Right's 'illiberal ism' I would somehow have to undergo both stretching and amputation to fit into their bed. I'm watching Kevin McCarthy willingly undergo this process right now. Stupid, stupid, man.
True, and that bespeaks a glaring injustice that was being ignored by the male writers of the time. I believe that long ago (well before the mid 19th Century) the primary use of the word "men" referred to all of humanity, although it was secondarily used for a male. Men and women were "wer" and "wif". That said, the notion of male superiority has been intense and widespread. Science and casually observable reality have given it the lie, but many still don't want to let it go.
In the early 1970’s I had some close business friends from Japan. Once after work when we were relaxing in the hotel bar I asked two of my Japanese friends to tell me the truth about their stand on women’s status. Without hesitation one said: “Men are without question superior to women”. I thanked him for his direct answer and sat there flabbergasted without letting on.
I love Japanese culture and visited there twice. My daughter taught in rural Japan for a year. There are still glaring blind spots there around nationlaism, rank and gender.
In this household there’s a continuous two cents of ‘humor’ , which is enjoyed, often enlightening, intellectually stimulating, often ‘blasphemous’ by judgement...and my insignificant other retorted to my mentioning the same...Talia, ‘well, Eve did take that apple, right?’
I never could figure out what was supposed to be bad about knowing the difference between good and evil. Yes, it demands accountability, but if you know what evil is (in my book, aggressive sociopathy) you have to the choice not to do it. The story struck me even in childhood as an allegory for growing up, but I have never understood what God was so steamed about.
I presumed it was for not doing what you were told, or thinking for yourself in anyway. In my family those things were greeted with disproportionate retribution.
I get what you're saying; it is hard to take it when you identify as a "good" Christian and do not enjoin these "not" Christians. I understand it (but not from the religious side. My level of understanding on this comes from 30 years as a "good cop" and not having the ability to refute the "ACAB" crowd who so passionately believe that there really is no such thing as a "good cop" and have a whole lot of data on their side.
When the ppl who exhibit ugly behavior steal the narrative and hijack the perception of something in which you believe or a group to which you belong, it’s truly painful.
Yes, and once "transgenderism" is eradicated, we must turn our attention to an even greater scourge: left-handedism! Why, we even allow left-handed people to appear on TV. This makes children watching think that left-handedism is okay. They're being groomed by TV, movies, the internet! This has got to stop. We need to develop therapies to treat left-handedness, and convert left-handed people into decent right-handers, as God wants them to be. And for those who refuse this blessing -- the camps!
Lincoln's speech of July 10, 1858 (if anyone wants to look it up) is one of his best, which is saying a lot. And the section quoted is right to the point. Conservatives today, as in his time, are challenging the very foundation of this country, the self-evident truths in the Declaration.
The notion of eradicating transgenderism is just so totally crazed. Sounds a lot like eradicating Jews. How about we all suggest they embrace it, like many Native American and other cultures do and have for centuries with their "Two Spirit" people...??
Lincoln did take a wider view of things but he also adopted the views of his times. He lived with his hypocrisy…and died for his love of country.
In 1862 Lincoln invited a group of Black men to the White House and as part of the conversation he said that Black people could never ‘be placed on an equality with the white race’. (Quote from Stamped from the Beginning by Ibram X. Kendi)
Like many of his contemporaries Lincoln worked to find ways to eliminate Black people from being in America. He joined with the American Colonization Society to ship Black people away to some far off places. Most prominent politicians joined as well although hats off to the abolitionists who advocated for an end to slavery. (Some of them too wanted Blacks to be “free” but not equal)
During a debate in 1858 Lincoln said, “I am not nor have ever been, in favor of brining about in any way, the social and political equality of the black and white races”. He realized though that slavery was tearing the country apart so his decision to emancipate Black people was to preserve the union-not to make Black people equal. The “Supreme” Court has upheld inequality for centuries.
The way we slice and dice our population has to stop if we really believe in equality. Why do we have to put people in groups based on superficial human characteristics? I think it’s only to reinforce white supremacy and patriarchy. Religion is just a tool to accomplish the aims of sinister people who really don’t believe in equality.
Like so many or us Lincoln too has in time had a Change of Heart. These epiphanies come to so many that we must wonder how many folks were never taught to think critically.
Like with the scientific method, once you see new and better data you adjust your theory. But with the dogma of religion drilled into your growing brain, it’s a challenge to get out of that rut of a neuronal pathway.
I am a 60 year old lefty and when I was a kid, my grandmother constantly tried to get me to use my right hand-- she had some religious reason against being left handed! Some “Christians” truly can use their religion against anything.
The term "hate" can be misleading. When used in a hate crime law, the word "hate" does not mean rage, anger, or general dislike. In this context “hate” means bias against people or groups with specific characteristics that are defined by the law.
At the federal level, hate crime laws include crimes committed on the basis of the victim’s perceived or actual race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, or disability.
Most state hate crime laws include crimes committed on the basis of race, color, and religion; many also include crimes committed on the basis of sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, and disability.
Crime
The "crime" in hate crime is often a violent crime, such as assault, murder, arson, vandalism, OR THREATS TO COMMIT SUCH CRIMES (my emphasis). It may also cover conspiring or asking another person to commit such crimes, even if the crime was never carried out."
It seems that the DOJ needs to start prosecuting cases where saying that "transgenderism has to be eradicated" is recognized for what it truly is--a call to violence against transgendered citizens. The fine line these right wing hate mongers walk is only fine if prosecutors refuse to prosecute and juries refuse to convict and SCOTUS refuses to uphold the convictions.
I think it is time that these examples are called out and prosecuted. The last time there was talk of "eradication" was during the Rwandan genocide and there were successful prosecutions. Yes it took years and untold numbers of people were murdered but a hate crime against one is still a hate crime. If we are going to turn back this assault on the basic premise of equality that is the only way it can be done. The line has to get wide and bright and there have to be consequences.
Thanks for this post, not just because I agree with you about including transgenderism a legally protected class under "sex," but also because it clarified for me something that has bugged me about "hate" crimes.
The fact that the DOJ has to define "hate" as having nothing to do with the emotions involved means that they should have chosen another name. Instead, I wish they'd chosen something like Anti-Criminal Discrimination Law, mirroring anti-discrimination laws in housing and employment.
It makes sense, too -- if criminal defendants have a right to be treated equally without regard to race, religion, national origin, sex, ethnicity, and disability, why shouldn't the victims also have that right? (Of course, that might mean that rape, by this definition, could be a "hate" crime, something that actually appeals to me.)
Having investigated (at the street level) crimes against persons that were based on the suspect's "perception" of their <pick your protected class here>. At the street level, where the cops are investigating assaults, criminal mischief, arson, harassment, sexual assaults, "hate" under the common definition is present as well.
Martin Niemöller was a German Lutheran pastor and theologian born in Lippstadt, Germany, in 1892. Niemöller was an anti-Communist and supported Adolf Hitler's rise to power at first. But when Hitler insisted on the supremacy of the state over religion, Niemöller became disillusioned. He became the leader of a group of German clergymen opposed to Hitler. In 1937 he was arrested and eventually confined in Sachsenhausen and Dachau. He was released in 1945 by the Allies. He continued his career in Germany as a clergyman and as a leading voice of penance and reconciliation for the German people after World War II.
Niemöller made confession in his speech for the Confessing Church in Frankfurt on 6 January 1946, of which this is a partial translation:
"... the people who were put in the camps then were Communists. Who cared about them? We knew it, it was printed in the newspapers. Who raised their voice, maybe the Confessing Church? We thought: Communists, those opponents of religion, those enemies of Christians—"should I be my brother's keeper?"
"Then they got rid of the sick, the so-called incurables. I remember a conversation I had with a person who claimed to be a Christian. He said: Perhaps it's right, these incurably sick people just cost the state money, they are just a burden to themselves and to others. Isn't it best for all concerned if they are taken out of the middle [of society]? Only then did the church as such take note.
Then we started talking, until our voices were again silenced in public. Can we say, we aren't guilty/responsible?
The persecution of the Jews, the way we treated the occupied countries, or the things in Greece, in Poland, in Czechoslovakia or in Holland, that were written in the newspapers. … I believe, we Confessing-Church-Christians have every reason to say: mea culpa, mea culpa! We can talk ourselves out of it with the excuse that it would have cost me my head if I had spoken out.
We preferred to keep silent. We are certainly not without guilt/fault, and I ask myself again and again, what would have happened, if in the year 1933 or 1934—there must have been a possibility—14,000 Protestant pastors and all Protestant communities in Germany had defended the truth until their deaths? If we had said back then, it is not right when Hermann Göring simply puts 100,000 Communists in the concentration camps, in order to let them die. I can imagine that perhaps 30,000 to 40,000 Protestant Christians would have had their heads cut off, but I can also imagine that we would have rescued 30–40,000 million [sic] people, because that is what it is costing us now."
It seems that, far too often, after someone has achieved financial riches, their focus changes to keeping/increasing their riches/power by fair means or foul. A financial caste system exists and has existed for many decades.
Looking at Congress Critters, far too many of them were raised in upper class households.and were financially able to afford to work for free as congressional interns. They believe that they are there solely through their own efforts and are tasked to preserve the conditions of their childhoods. These conditions are deemed “the good old days” and are not to be fooled with, even when poor children are put to work in jobs that result in chemical burns. Many of these children are from immigrant families afraid to report the conditions.
Mary, this is so true. “Many of these children are from immigrant families afraid to report the conditions.” Our government started searching for and rounding up immigrants, and knew just where to find them. Many are working in essential jobs with no protection at all. America can’t decide which political direction to move. These companies want cheap labor and know who to hire. Where does it stop?
Companies have always been going for the cheap labor. There's a recent book: Back of the HIring Line: A 200-Year History of Immigration Surges, Employer Bias, and Depression of Black Wealth, by Roy Beck, $13 on Amazon.
In 1980, meat packers were mostly Black workers, making good middle class wages, having spent decades organizing. By that decade's end, meat packers were mostly immigrants, toiling under atrocious conditions for barely above minimum wage.
The book gives the lie to the notion that there are jobs Americans won't do. Beck interviewed out of work poultry plant workers on the eastern shore, asking them if they'd take their old job s back if they could get them. No, they told him. The wages would force them to live in their cars, or many to a room.
The problem has spread to white workers since then. And it's going ot get worse, if anyhting. The Census Bureau projects that the US will grow by 75 million over the next four decades, a rate of growth that's almost equivalent to adding one NY State population every decade. And 90% of that growth will be from immigration.
Yes, David, thank you for highlighting the history of this scandalous corporate, economic, social justice and political problem. Crisis. And not new. Is it also an American problem? At least now. Sending jobs and industries overseas to save money? To start. But here in this democratic country, hiring immigrants knowing they are unprotected. And undocumented. So no benefits and low wages. And sometimes raiding factories to find illegal immigrants and send them immediately and literally “packing” out of their homes and country. Undercover journalist Barbara Ehrenreich investigated and exposed the corruption and greed in the American work world. “Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America.” And then there’s even earlier: Upton Sinclair’s “The Jungle.” 1906, the expose about the health violations and unsanitary conditions of the American meat packing industry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle.
And books on child labor laws and the Industrial Revolution.
But what corporations read these books or care about history if they can get away with their unethical and immoral practices?
You are conflating a bunch of other issues with the issue of replacing American workers with cheap immigrant labor, although there is a lot of overlap. And for companies, while the end result may be the same, this is opposite of sending jobs and industries overseas. (This is outsourcing by importing the cheap labor.)
There are companies that import people to the US for cheap labor--a couple of Indian companies for example. Many US business leaders encourage this sort of thing--Zuckerberg, the Koch Industries for example. Tom Tancredo (R-CO), in the '90s and '00s the leading exponent on Capitol Hill for reducing immigration, told me a couple of fast food execs spent an hour trying to buy him off of the issue, telling him they'd keep his campaign coffers full if he'd drop it (he wasn't for sale). During the Bush II administration, Karl Rove told Tancredo "never to darken the White House door again".
Even in the 1800s, companies would send boats to Europe to bring back white workers that they could use to replace their black workers.
Companies are more likely to exploit illegal immigrants, as they are easier to exploit than legal immigrants, but both get exploited.
"Raiding" factories for illegal immigrants is separate, and it often results in American workers getting the newly open jobs. But the easy way to stop the illegal immigration would be to pass a national, mandatory E-Verify. That would stop the flood of immigrants coming across the borders. Democrats don't want to do that because they think--probably wrongly--that such immigrants, once made citizens, will vote Democratic. (From 2016-2020, the numbers of naturalized immigrants voting for Republicans increased, and I think it increased again in 2022.)
Many big biz GOPers don't want E-Verify because they like the cheap labor. Nonetheless, a bill that would have made E-Verify nationally mandatory came within ~25 votes of passing the House in 2017, because a majority of Republicans and some Democrats voted for it. But Paul Ryan, then House Speaker, and Trump did not push for it. Had they done so, it almost certainly would have passed the house.
David, thank you for your detailed reply. This topic is complicated. I am adding other concerns to the conversation but not conflating. There are many policies and movements that are related and I think they need to be recognized. This is an American problem, but so is replacing American workers with undocumented workers who have no protection. Or as Barbara Ehrenreich wrote about low wages and no benefits. Not able to live on full time jobs. This discussion is a book, not a paragraph. And the comments are conversations.
Excellent analysis of how 🤔 the radicals are trying to force their interpretation of what's right or wrong on all of America 🇺🇸 whether that's what the majority of people want or not; definitely not!!
Excellent historical quotes from ol Abe Lincoln himself, the 1st GOP President who set what is supposed to be the standard for true Patriots of the Grand Ol Party maintaining the integrity of the United States of America 🇺🇸, not engaging in the seditious activities displayed by today's splinter group of radical insurrectionists.
Lincoln would of been the 1st one to stop their shenanigans, which are poisoning American society, so that this government of the people and for the people shall not perish from this Earth 🤔
I do think Lincoln would have been more adroit in handling them, that's for sure.
And just out of curiosity, is that your real email address you're using for your screen name, DanQuick65, or did you create a new account just to see what kind of crazy crap get emailed to an address publicly posted on a site with international viewership?
You never know, the likes of Putin, Fox Noise, and Elmo Musk may have driven him deeper into despair. I say we’re very fortunate he was there when we needed him and perhaps history will say the same for Joe Biden
Ultimately, both on the surface and within the substance, Orban's "Christian Democracy" is not Christian. It is cut from the same cloth that prepared Germany for WWII and the Holocaust. There is little to difference between Hitler's Nazism and Stalin's Communism or Soviets, nor with Putin's plan to restore Soviet Russia. Hitler's Holocaust and Stalin's starvation of Ukraine to establish state operated agriculture are both founded on the debasement of humanity. None of this right up to the DeSantis's attacks on on freedom and equality in the name of "Christian values" are Christian. They all twist vocabulary, terms and values on their head to make what's wrong right, and what's right wrong. This deception is addressed in the Bible as Satan.
"Hitler's Holocaust and Stalin's starvation of Ukraine to establish state operated agriculture are both founded on the debasement of humanity."
One of the most well written and clear sentences I have ever read summarizing the far right government models. Well done.
Except that Stalin came from the far Left of Communism, Communism gone awry. Both Hitler and Stalin were ruthless dictators, totalitarian despots but each came from opposite ends of the political spectrum. It would seem better proof that any sort of absolute power, whether from the Left or the Right ultimately and inevitably leads to corruption of whatever first principles originally animated them.
JohnM.
I would argue that the far right defined Stalin's government as "far left" to enable more effective demonization of Stalin's approach.
In fact, "Communism", in its earliest definition, does not look even remotely like what Stalin created. Stalin created a right wing, centrally controlled, top down government where ONLY what Stalin wanted mattered.
In true "communism" a "community" of people come together to govern themselves, share their lives, their assets and their talents in a common, communal manner, much as the early disciples did (as described in the Acts of the Apostles).
The bastardization of "communism" by Stalin forever made "Communism" ugly to those unaware of what "communism" actually was in its early forms during early industrialization and during the time immediately following Jesus death.
But, if you carefully read the Acts of the Apostles, describing true communal sharing and living of Jesus early followers, you will see a community effort at self government AND sharing.
Not altogether different than what John Adams set out in his ground breaking Massachusetts's Constitution.
I can’t even tell you how upsetting it is when a word with a wholesome meaning gets turned into an ‘evil’ word. Communism, Socialism, and now Christian and Republican. I did not know words can be kidnapped and used for different purposes. It is very effective for those who want to steal your mind.
And it's not just words. The American flag has also been commandeered by the far right.
The stealing of the flag just fries me. Not patriots, not Christian, not even decent.
You are so right! It’s a sickness! It’s an effort to say: we’re more patriotic than the rest of you. Today at the beach, we saw a woman, in a beach chair, surrounded by little American flags she had stuck into the ground. It was like her “fence” against the rest of us. Crazy!!!
And the color red.
But the left has let the right commandeer the American flag. A tactical error that goes back at least to the Vietnam War protests. We have to proudly bring American flags to all our protests. This is our America and our flag!!!
Not mine. Before the election, I flew mine right above my Biden and Mark Kelly signage.
I don't think the right commandeered it. I think during and in the aftermath of the Vietnam War the left disowned it. It's our fault. After I got a new (used) car years ago, I put a flag decal on it. when I visited my best friend with that car, thinking the car had come with the flag, he started to try to scrape it off. We need to take the flag back.
Only because we let it. I began flying the flag at home because it is the flag of my country. When I see it flown on a large pole on the back of a bubba truck, I see that as disrespecting the symbol. We sure can't just let them have it.
How has the flag been commandeered? Obviously I've missed something important!!!
Susan Burgess "I did not know words can be kidnapped and used for different purposes. It is very effective for those who want to steal your mind."
'𝘞𝘩𝘦𝘯 𝘐 𝘶𝘴𝘦 𝘢 𝘸𝘰𝘳𝘥,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘𝘪𝘵 𝘮𝘦𝘢𝘯𝘴 𝘫𝘶𝘴𝘵 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘐 𝘤𝘩𝘰𝘰𝘴𝘦 𝘪𝘵 𝘵𝘰 𝘮𝘦𝘢𝘯 — 𝘯𝘦𝘪𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳 𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘦 𝘯𝘰𝘳 𝘭𝘦𝘴𝘴.’
’𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘲𝘶𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘪𝘴,’ said Alice, ‘𝘸𝘩𝘦𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳 𝘺𝘰𝘶 𝘤𝘢𝘯 𝘮𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘸𝘰𝘳𝘥𝘴 𝘮𝘦𝘢𝘯 𝘴𝘰 𝘮𝘢𝘯𝘺 𝘥𝘪𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨𝘴.’
’𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘲𝘶𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘪𝘴,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘𝘸𝘩𝘪𝘤𝘩 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘰 𝘣𝘦 𝘮𝘢𝘴𝘵𝘦𝘳 — 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵’𝘴 𝘢𝘭𝘭.'
What about all the words hijacked by the LGBT community?:
Gay, Queer, Pride, Woman, He, She, Marriage, Husband, Wife, Partner, to name but a few?
Less of your blatant, in your face, evangelism and we might all be able to get on better together. I, and a lot of people I know will never accept mandated speech or pronouns.
You haven't watch enough faux angertaintment then. 😉
Faux angertaintment! You win my 'award' for best coinage of a new word. At first I was going to change your spelling to angertainment (off entertainment) but then I realized the "taint" was probably intentional and applied 3 different concepts to the totally understandable word.
And you can add WOKE to that list of coopted words.
Yes. How could I have left WOKE out?
Like "jihad," whose original meaning is, to struggle for the sake of God. It is not violent and does not mean to attack anyone or go to war. The word has been mainstreamed into the American lexicon and is discriminatory and derogatory.
Most people don't even understand what communism and socialism mean, either.
Mary If virtually no one knows what ‘socialism’ really mean, what about ‘woke?’ Talking about obfuscation! If you ain’t woke, you are brain dead [my modest interpretation]
Marycat2021 No one understands what socialism means.
Susan Burgess, "those who want to steal your mind"
George Orwell ominously predicted this in "1984" with Big Brother's newspeak. Change the language and people will be limited in how they can think, which eliminates their ability to challenge rulers.
Susan I agree that wholesome words have been ‘evilized.’ What further boggles me is that those who oppose American principles have kidnapped the American flag and those who are anti-abolition march under their ‘pro-life’ hypocrisy.
So true, and it's what they do.
It’s, at least to me, a super effective form of terrorism, to steal words and change the meaning while kidnapping the group under that word’s banner at the same time.
Susan, read "Alice Through the Looking Glass", Chapter 6, by Lewis Carroll where Humpty Dumpty gives Alice stern instruction on giving words their meanings, as many meaning as the "master" determines.
David As a college sophomore, my English professor quoted this to me after reading my flowery language essay. Subsequently, when I became a professor, I did the same with some of my students.
David,
Thanks for the reference.
I recommend you read Orwell's 1984 ASAP
This ( hijacking of language) is exactly what always happens when totalitarian states establish themselves. The book is a roadmap to what we are seeing. Extremely prescient
Joan I have recently re-read Orwell’s 1984 and re-watched the movie. Chilling and a reflection of DeSantis. In Animal Farm, Orwell was a bit more optimistic. With the pigs ‘more equal than the others, an authoritarian pig-dominated society was eventually overthrown by a coalition of animals.
They don't call it Orwellian for nothing!👍
I was called a douche bag by a "christian" minister for saying Jesus was a socialist
Carole, that is priceless. I’m sorry for your confrontation, but irony of the juxtaposition of “minister” and “douche bag” is so ironic
Prefacing his name calling with, " I am going to have to ask forgiveness tonight"
Well isn’t THAT special?
...Dana Carvey aka The Church Lady
Find a new minister!
Consider the source!
Thank you Mike. The more facts I read the more I worry about ever knowing what is really in our history. So much to digest. I do feel that the desire for some to control others is a definite evil. To come together in a purpose of kindness and caring and sharing is very different from what I am hearing from the MAGA crazies.
Several years ago my husband and I visited a museum in Italy. In one room was a group of fabulously realistic marble statues. The carvings were so beautiful that it was hard not to touch. One was of a beautiful woman lying on a couch. Even though the marble was hard and cold the bedding on the couch seemed warm and inviting. It was a miracle of art and thousands of years old. The woman figure had both breasts and a penis. I show this photo to people who seem to think this is a new phenomena. The human animal has come with many variants of genetic makeup. For those who abhor the idea try putting oneself in the confusion this natural phenomenon presents. Think of the child or adult who is faced with this overwhelming difference. Remember that while the far right members deny fact, somewhere, everywhere humans suffer through hate and denial of self. Would any of us want to hurt another to that extreme? Ask Jesus .... if you are truly Christian your answer should jump out at you like a miracle.
I do not count myself as a “Christian”, but I do think of myself as a miracle human animal. That is all and that is everything.🎶🦋🌺🌎🪐💫
Jean, beautifully written and expressed. Thank you.
Absolutely love this post. I wish everyone would watch the new ¨Next In Fashion¨ ( I know, I know, I know) on Netflix. There is a trans person as one of the contestants. To be a being trapped in a body that does not belong to you is a form of hell. To be able to free your being from that body and transform into who you are is such a rightful gift. 🧜♀️🎊⭐✨🐬🦢🦚
I agree that Stalin was far from what Marx envisioned. In my view Russia merely changed from one autocracy to another...no revolution actually just more of the same under a different name. Kudos for including a part of the NT here.
Beautifully written, Mike S. Hitler and Stalin are ultimately the same, mean men in pursuit of power. I say “mean” because both came to their evil pursuit of power from feeling aggrieved and both found ways for “payback.” Look at Trump for a tinpot version.
Thank you, Mike S., for so eloquently describing Communism and its principles. You are absolutely correct. Anyone understanding communism would immediately see that while it might be idyllic it would never be ideal. In a small commune, such as the 12 disciples, the hippy communes of the 1960's and 70's it worked well for short periods of time. No one in their right mind would suggest communism for more than 100 persons - and even that is stretching it. Socialism where a country is ruled for the good of all inhabitants can work, with much effort to keep it honest. As there is no such thing as a Communist Country, there is also no such thing as a classless society. What we have tried (until now) in America to have a society based on the ability of people to move up or down in class. Now as we have drifted first into oligarchy since the 1970's, we are fast approaching a dictatorial fascist form of government, Thankfully I will not be around to witness it. I hope the rest of you can turn it around to save our representative republic.
Fay,
Agree on all. Thank you.
Authoritarianism is brutal whatever brand is attached to it, right, left, or theocratic. And yes, I think the Enlightenment Era philosophies that informed much of the social theories of our founding documents tilt leftward. However, I am impressed by the Oracle at Delphi (Pythia) and the three maxims engraved before the temple:
Know thyself
Nothing to excess
Surety brings ruin, or "make a pledge and mischief is nigh"
I note that biological systems are a mind-boggling array of mutually interactive balances (thus we are unwise to %#@& with our climate) but we humans are more comfortable with simple answers. Back in the '70s I met people who thought there should be no private property at all. I have since met or read people who think that any public property whatsoever (even pubic roads) is an anathema. Both seem to me to throw out the babies with the bathwater. I seems to me that both robust private enterprise and public works are the right tool for the right job. Reconciling both can be tricky, but extreme purity loses the plot. In any case, unaccountable power tends to corrupt.
The social theories of Jesus always seemed to me to lean leftward. So did Lincoln. Lincoln's "The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities" sounds more like Marx, or even the "Declaration" than Reagan or Trump, as does “Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.” Lincoln was not attacking capital, just placing it in its proper perspective.
To JL Graham: you hit the complexities quite squarely. Kermit the Frog sang “It’s not easy being green.” I would substitute “human” for green. Your approach to the problem is commendable. Practicing it will give you lots of friends. When the next pandemic hits, I look forward to the discussion we might have.
In the context of history (written or sung), Lincoln looks good. These days if you characterize him as “left,” however, there’s stigma.
Can anyone say “Kibutz”?
I think that's where we're going to end up, assuming we don't all kill each other before the planet does.
Kibbutzim were great for agriculture and small manufacturing. And a great place to raise a family. They haven't worked on a larger economic scale, though. So maybe yes, but not quite the bucolic picture on most people's minds.
Yes, Dave, those too, operated for a short period of time (less than one hundred years) as communist style communes, one for all and all for one.
When it comes to authoritarians, "left" and "right" have virtually no meaning. Like Big Brother, they twist words and concepts to fit what they perceive to be their own interest at the moment. (Sounds a bit like TFG, doesn't it?)
It does.
GODS WORD! The Early CHURCH, is the EXAMPLE that OUR LORD! would Have US ! ( MANKIND) to Follow ! the Book, of ACTS, IS the GREAT EXAMPLE! THANKS ! MIKE!
It's not the left- or right-ness, but the degree of stuck-ness: unwilling to listen, unwilling to think or be thoughtful, unwilling to care about others, unwilling to see ramifications or downsides (because there always is).
Most of all unwilling to be wrong.
A perfect expression of our current conundrum. Thanks for a timely reminder of such.
Back when I was majoring in Russian Language and Literature, one of my professors pointed out that right and left are a circle, rather than a line. Far right and far left end up meeting, because at the extremes, the only philosophy is control and power. This idea has resonated with me ever since.
This is an observation that I have made for a long time. Moderates at the top of the circle look and sound a lot alike, can often work with each other. Extremists at the bottom of the circle who come close to sounding alike, and certainly share the same destructive authoritarian means and methods.
However, this circle concept does not mean right and left are equally distributed around the circle. During Eisenhower's time the distribution might have been equil on each side with moderates heaviest on top. Now Republicans heavily weighted on the side to bottom, with Democrats more evenly spread from top to middle, tapering off toward the bottom.
We have three daughters. The oldest was very rebellious, the middle less so, and the youngest almost not at all. But she was the most confident, bold and adventurous. We could tell that she learned from the oldest that rebellion for it's own sake or for attention, accomplished nothing worthwhile, just a lot of chaos, confusion, and wasted resources. I think Democrats are the reacting the same to Republicans. However, while the oldest was living at home, the youngest had to bide her time.
Juanita Spot on! Far right and far left are two faces on the same coin, as are love and hate. One possible difference is that the far left may profess to be ‘serving the people,’ while the far right often considers the common people as rabble to be commanded.
Control of others is the common point which offers the circle as a better metaphor than a continumn (line) for extremes become a singular among attributes and desires that suround human possibility. Otherwise, I was going to suggest that the Extremes know that their recipe for Chilli is the right one. ;))
Fred Jung was enchanted by the circle for which he was fried by Freud. Love/hate, far left/far right/Native American tradition of life circle for humans and animals.
Juanita,
correct.
the only good government is one where everyone does what I want them to do.
:-)
An excellent, helpful memory and point . Thank you for sharing that.
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely "- Lord Acton
I recall General Colin Powell saying (perhaps in sarcasm?) that “Power corrupts, and absolute power is delightful.”
I was also thinking that it was Henry Kissinger who said that "power is the ultimate aphrodisiac..." Then looking at him...eeeeew...
Bruce Is venality in his veins keeping KIssinger alive? He was chairman for years of an organization with which I have been involved since 1953, Henry is not a ‘nice’ man and his ego tops Trump’s.
Given Powell's role in roughly 400,000 deaths of innocent people in Iraq, I guess that was one time when he was NOT lying.
Mike I attended a meeting at the Asia Society in the spring of 2003 at which Kissinger launched a torrent of criticism at the French foreign minister for not supporting the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld initiative to obtain UN support for a U.S. invasion of Iraq.
The French foreign minister, supported by many others, called for an extension of the UN team that was (often with suggestions from CIA) seeking to identify whether there were any WMD (weapons of mass destruction) in effort. So far they had found none.
I had interviewed Iraqi President Abdul Karim Qassim for 21/2 hours in 1960. He was a creepy guy who was killed in a coup authorized by JFK in 1963 which provided a launching pad for Saddam Hussein.
As a former Foreign Service Officer, I was astonished by former SecState Kissinger’s tirade. General Powell deserves some criticism for his February UN speech, in which he parroted false information provided to him by CIA Director Tenet.
However the overwhelming blame goes to Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld, with Kissinger’s coaching from the public sidelines.
Stalin was no more “Communist” than Hitler and his National Socialist party were “Socialist.” Just as the Poser “Christians” never seem to quote Jesus, but always Paul. They are in fact Paulists, like the Puritans who embraced that severe, non-Christian religion. Many so-called “Christians” are anti-Semitic, yet cherry pick from their Buybull’s Old Testament Jewish writings (Leviticus) when Paul’s edicts were not severe enuf. A requirement of the KKK is to be Protestant Christian, yet Jesus would be appalled at their actions. All these Hypocracies are embraced by hateful oppressors whether Soviet, Nazi, or the Repugnant Party.
John Just as the line between love and hate is narrow (some spectacular divorce battles) so is the line between far left and far right. Hitler and Stalin were both brutal dictators with false creeds. Whether they were driven by communism or extreme nationalism, the results were similarly deadly.
I recall years ago reading a comparison between Stalinism and the Catholic Church. Similarities included 1) authoritarianism; 2) ruthlessness in punishing offenders; the ultimate power. Historically the Jesuits and the Inquisition might match the Stalin ‘trials’ of the 1930s.
Today we might ruminate on the similarities between Hungary’s Orban and the cockatoos who flutter around Trump and post-Trump.
I think the driving force for them was the intense desire to set up worship in their name, to amass power and to tell people what to think and do. Just like DeSantis.
But the political spectrum is not a line, it's a circle. Left and right meet in the back. On that circle you could also place rational/ crazy, and cooperative/ individual. Or maybe stack the three.
30 years ago, while teaching the concept of political spectrum, I used the traditional linear alignment with Communism, Socialism, Liberalism on the left and Dictatorship, Fascism, Monarchy, and Conservatism on the right. Independents were scattered throughout the middle. Same analogy was used within a party; ie, on the liberal side there were radicals, traditional liberals and moderate liberals and on the conservative side there were reactionaries, traditional conservatives, and moderate conservative. I researched alternatives because I couldn't find a place on that scale for anarchists. But it did reflect the challenge for someone one the more extreme ends of the spectrum to look toward the center and beyond and see reasonable people. The radical looks to his/her right and sees fascists/the conservative looks to his/her left and sees communists.
To try to account for that, I created a circular scale that did not quite close at the top. The bottom were independents, the right was conservatives, the left liberals. The "circle" was. more like a Celtic torque-opened at the top. I used that space to describe the explosive effects of anarchists in the manner an electric spark was snap across that gap. It also establishes the concept that communism and fascism are not as far apart as we think, making the jump that Lenin and Stalin made to introduce Marxism to agrarian Russia most understandable as a jump from communism to fascism or ultra-liberalism to ultra-conservatism.
In short, I agree with your circular analogy.
I'd not seen anyone suggest anything like it, so I was on my own; but nobody seems to object to the graphic.
Sounds like you've seen someone or something that uses that circular spectrum. I'd truly like to read anything on that topic you can share with me.
I have nothing academic, just observations of people and the world. My observations were informed by study of Russian and Chinese history as an adjunct to travel- Soviet Union in '86 and China in '88. We were in Leningrad when Chernobyl blew up and Tianamen Square a year before the massacre. I think it's easier to see the loop when you get first-hand observations of how a government treats it's people.
Add that to college stuff where I could see my fringe friends looking very similar on the stridency and extremity of their arguments. Literally the same arguments, eyeballs and bulging veins: the similarities.
I've carried this theory for a long time and saw it reinforced when the Boogaloos contemplated their relationship with extremes of Antifa. I love your gap and spark analogy because it speaks to how those two synergize and release the every of violence. I've not seen many folks make the circular reference, but it's clear as a sunny day to me. If we all saw it that way, it would be easier to find the common ground. Especially when we all understood the hairy eyeball is reserved not just for the folks across from us, but also those behind us.
JohnM: If you study the concept of political spectrum, you will find communism are the far left and fascism on the far right. However, if you substitute Lenin's tenants of power for Marx's principle of communism, you'll find Lenin (and Stalin) warped Marx's tenants from the power of we to the power of me. At that point, they were no longer Marxist, but simply another brand of fascists.
With Nazism or Soviet or East German Communism Opposite is not really true. It is an idea that these were opposite but they end up being the same end of the spectrum, that of extremism. In fact, that the "Left" and "Right" are marching together in the same causes quite often these days is an interesting phenomenon. Not just that Matt Gaetz and AOC are aligned on withdrawing the USA from Syria, but I also see this in Germany with the "Left" and "Right" being against Covid vaccines, and against supporting Ukraine, and a lot of other positions in the Bundestag that are very nationalistic and inward focused. One of the reasons that I avoid the former Eastern German states when I am in Germany, is because they had Hitler and then the DDR, so that was a lot of years of totalitarian government. I don't see either system as different in how they manage people. Not opposite at all, even the way that they tell people that they are for them seems the same. Both are systems of "group think." That is what the Republican Party MAGA-ites are engaged in too. TRUMP gets group think. He is the head group thinker. DeSantis is trying it out too. He wants to be the Big Brother. Those Republicans who buck the group think are endangering themselves. I have been wondering whether Mitch McConnells accident was an accident like I might have an accident, or like Putin's friends who don't agree with him have accidents.
Was thinking about McConnell's "accident" too.
Stalin was starving Ukraine because he needed the grain for export to generate the capital to industrialize his peasant economy. Collectivization was the means to generate the foreign exchange required to fund this transformation. It was state capitalism.
James Historians estimate that 3-6 million Ukrainians starved to death in this ‘transformation’ to state capitalism. I have a video that documents this.
Your assertion is supported by Timothy Snyder in “Bloodlands”
James Yes, and in a book by two French historians on deaths under communism. Walter Duranty of the NYT won a Pulitzer for his early 1930s reporting from Moscow. He omitted reporting on the Ukrainian ‘genocide.’ A book was published highlighting this. The NYT ‘investigated’ and then chose not to seek annulment of the Pulitzer. (I have the book in my library upstairs)
Wow, Keith! That book must be coveted by collectors!
The movie Mr. Jones by Andrea Chalupa is also about the starvation of Ukraine and Walter Durante. Highly recommended.
Ramona Sounds interesting. Also, HARVEST OF DESPAIR: THE UNKOWN HOLOCAUST (1984)
Thank you! I'll check it out. Mr. Jones was written in 2019. It's streaming on Prime now. I don't know that I can find Harvest of Despair as it was released in 2004.
I’d readily agree, but our own past has many dark moments in it where history books and the America , the people haven’t done the justice they should (Zinn’s is pretty ‘good’). But here again there’s room to improve, acknowledge, correct...hopefully. Even Evangelicals are opening eyes to a better ‘walk’ ..though JUST a few ...opening their eyes and I’M a STILL learning too....Thanks Rick Warren, Pope Francis, and many more...
Through good writing, gifted writers, light can shine through . And in every facet of group there’s dark people/money/times. Let the US people help pave the wave not quite as eloquently ( I wish) as Heather, Robert, Joyce...but we CAN make some difference. Thanks
I just about choked on DeSantis’ statement in Iowa this week “Greetings from the free state of Florida”. Free state?!?!?! Are you effing kidding me?!?!? Where books are being banned, speech is being limited, schools are being told what they can/cannot teach, where LGBTQ citizens are being ostracized and erased, where corporations must be careful what they say/support or be penalized, where the press is being asked to register with the state if they want to print anything about “dear leader?!?!?
Oh, and let’s not forget, where people , especially the elderly and minorities, are free to die because the “leaders” give you false information about a deadly virus. Not to mention voter suppression. That is one “free state” I personally will never set foot in again. And all of that is what we can look forward to in a so-called Christian Democracy, which has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with power.
Calling it a “free” state is very consistent with their use of hijacking words to brainwash people. They do this with everything. The human brain is vulnerable and the study of neuroscience clarifies how this works. Repeating simple phrases with positive connotations while doing the exact opposite is the trick of malice. Experts like TSnyder, RBen-Ghiat, and GLakoff have been warning us for years
It’s Orwellian doublespeak.
Yes! And Orwell’s brilliant warning decades ago!!
My thoughts exactly.
Cognitive Linguist and Distinguished Professor George Lakoff speaks of repetition as one of the major practices in the “framing” that aspiring leaders, including fascists,use to bring people into their way of thinking.
Gaslighting
Did you see the "snowflake" someone presented him?
Here's a picture...from Twitter...and one was also presented to the Governor of Iowa:
https://twitter.com/SteveGoffman/status/1634358622774861824
It was so fabulous and creative!
That's a good chuckle. Wonder how long it took him to figure it out? (Somehow I suspect he didn't until it was posted and one of his staff read it...)
Seriously?? That happened? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!
I am going to have to see if there's any video or photos of that moment! How brilliant!
Seriously? Nice little burn 🔥.
Whenever anyone talks about freedom and liberty, you have to ask, "For whom?"
Usually, it's just white, land owning men. That's who the constitution was written for.
"Freedom for me, but not for thee..."
If it is a"free state" does that mean it is separate from the US? If that is what he is saying , it would be like Jefferson Davis running for President.
❗️ ❗️ ❗️
Ah, yes! The Banana Republican idea of small government! Where the government dictates what you cannot say, think, read, do, or even BE!
Cathy DeSantis is reading ‘state scripts’ from George Orwell’s 1984. If you accept that black is white and white is black, whenever the state professes this, then you are DeSanitized.
“DeSanitized”! FABULOUS!!!
I am saving your comment, Cathy. You speak the scary truth.
Well, since Florida is free, they should not require FEMA help next time a major hurricane strikes it, right?
I have never seen Desantis exposed more effectively. Well done.
My very thoughts exactly. Free state my behind!
There is something in my primal brain that wonders why all these crazy right, white, christian wingers don’t all just mosey on over to Hungary and love what Orban is promoting there.
They mean freedom for them to be able to go back to their spongy-white-bread world where everyone looked like a 1950s TV show.
DeStalin is a “joke”! “Free state”? Where does he get off calling Florida a “free state”? It’s far from it. Actually, it’s in the opposite end of the spectrum. DeStalin has made that into his own little country, and he has the state legislature snowed as well. He’s turned it into a deep red state, in more ways than one. I’m so glad I escaped from there 5 years ago. And, I’ll never, ever, call Florida “home” ever again.
Anyone want to know what this country will look like if he’s elected as president. Take a good, hard, long, look at Florida. Then ask yourself, is this how I want to live? Is this the true United States of America? Answer: No, and NO!
DeStalin has stripped citizens of the right to vote, taken freedoms away every step of the way, refused people the right to live their lives as they see fit, deprived a true education of our young people, and threatened educators with prison if they refused to confirm to his way of thinking. Now, I ask you. Just exactly who does this remind you of from our history?
Daniel My quandary: DeStalin or DeSantisized? Why not both? ‘Let the punishment fit the crime,’ as Gilbert & Sullivan phrased it.
Very well stated. I agree!
My take exactly!
Free from or free to...
Jesus was pretty liberal, especially for his era. And very effective liberals tend to be targets.
Good news though:
Mary Magdalene, through a brilliant methodology, has kept Jesus, and his somewhat forgiving approach followed by (not many) alive for 2000 years. Not a bad accomplishment for a woman that lived 2000 years ago in a highly Patriarchal society.
Not bad at all.
Mike The early Catholic Church transformed Mary Magdalene—who was extremely close to Jesus and, in the Gospels, discovered that his body was missing—into a prostitute within the first several hundred years. Not so good.
The whole story of how Mary Magdalene was turned into a prostitute by the early Christian church is horrible. This whole persona was created primarily to be the Yin to the Blessed Virgin Mary's Yang. She was portrayed as the opposite of the pure, unspotted virgin...she was a sinner who could repent. We don't actually know all that much about her, truth be told. I've always wondered if the early church made sure any other information about her was destroyed in order to foist their constructed version of her into doctrine. Those monks transcribing texts in scriptoria in the Dark and Middle Ages pulled did a lot of untold damage...
Bruce An interesting ying/yang story. I had the impression that the Virgin Mary was not highlighted by the Catholic Church until about the 11th century, when there was an image-forming campaign to highlight Mary as the Mother of God. I noticed this in the artifacts displayed in Kenneth Clark’s Civilisation. The image of Mary was intended to emphasize the ‘family news’ of Catholics while, of course, even today the Vatican considers women as second class.
I think the 10th, 11th centuries was when the real "cult" around the BVM got going...creating an "ideal" Mother of God, giving birth, but never having been defiled, and then becoming a model for women, which was of course totally impossible for them to emulate. If you've not read it, I highly recommend "Alone of All Her Sex: The Myth and Cult of the Virgin Mary", by Marina Warner. It was published 40 years ago, but is still very relevant today. It gives the whole historical context of BVM and how the "cult" came to be. In my own experience of having sung so much Medieval and Renaissance vocal music dedicated to Mary, I always noted that as a body of music it represents some of the THE most beautiful music to come from this period. Quite simply, composers were essentially writing "love" music in the guise of religious music, some of it at times even verging on the erotic. Warner's book reinforces this and shows how it was possible. Also, music written for the plethora of other female saints and martyrs can be show to have similarities to secular love music. Anyway, the Warner book is a must read, now in paperback. Highly recommended.
Bruce,
Magdalene's main story was preserved for some reason and that's all that matters.
She went to a tomb of a dead man. Angels came and told her Jesus was arisen. Somehow, Magdalene came up with an arisen Jesus (that the disciples did not initially recognize).
And so it began.
It's the details of her earlier life before she showed up in the Gospels that are basically unknown and that's what I was talking about. Trying to infer she was a prostitute came about long after the Resurrection.
This happened even before the monks in the middle ages. The early church fathers are responsible for a lot of the damage. The far right zealots of today remind me of them....destroy anything that does not fit the patriarchal model.
Keith,
I don't really have much to offer or add. The Catholic Church is so far out in the weeds of Christianity we can effectively write it off.
Love Mary Magdalene. Excellent in fact.
I keep thinking about W saying something about "laser-like focus." And I thought he had a point. Whoever has laser-like focus, will win. My thinking is that the narcissists, the psychopaths, the dictators always have laser-like focus because they don't have a conscience to distract them. Liberals don't have laser-like focus because they care, they understand ramifications and downsides, unless they are a narcissistic liberal. I have to think about that but it might be an oxymoron.
❗️ ❗️ ❗️
Well, I've known narcissists who played at being seen as progressive liberals for as long as they could pull it off. And some progressive liberals who could be pretty short-sighted about things like unexpected ramifications. But, yeah, not the same thing.
Yup. The Xian Nationalists have strayed far from love thy neighbor
Jesus also practiced and participated in the ethno-centric views of his time, calling the Syrophoenician woman a "dog", no?
He did, Steve. And she snapped back and changed him. She said, "Yes but even the dogs eat the crumbs from the master's table." Or words to that effect. She turned it back on him in a most clever way. She woke him up. How could he be so unable to imagine a Syrophoenician woman to be someone he ought to care about? Think about the fact that for Christians, Jesus is both human and divine. If we ponder what that means (and its impossible paradox is worth contemplating for a lifetime), we have to leave open a door to thinking of him as, in fact, human. We humans are shaped by the prejudices of our cultures and it can take a woman dismissed from the dominant culture to change minds and hearts. Sojourner Truth, Rosa Parks, Fanny Lou Hamar. . .
Oh, Melinda. This is certainly where the story turns for there is much more than what our eyes can read. In this, Jesus knew the culture in which he lived and as a human, he embraced what he came to do, to fulfill the law. The law forbid him to never associate with the "other", the Gentiles. And yet he drove the Pharisees nuts by dining with sinners and prostitutes and in those moments radical inclusivity was introduced. His 1st response was so those he was with wouldn't be offended by what he actually did-acknowledged her faith, granted her request and healed her daughter. I would offer to you to try seeing this story through the lens of Jesus caring for both, those he came for, the Jews, and the Gentiles in that very same human/divine moment. And that the fact that she was a women isn't lost on me.
This is specifically why the bible is easily used to justify whatever one wishes it to justify as it can be interpreted in countless diverging ways. The bible is a handpicked collection of stories (leaving out many that don’t align with a chosen narrative), includes anonymous authors that contradict each other, and without generous reinterpretation promotes a host of immoral and unethical behaviors and beliefs. The right consists of christians who can be controlled by dishonest leaders because they use the bible to justify the horrors they accept as necessary.
“Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
All that said, we probably do need a 2-prong approach to pushing back this rapidly growing wave of anti-democracy: continuing dueling christian interpretations as well as highlighting the consequences of destroying democracy’s guardrails that will result in all Americans losing freedoms and rights we count on. This needs to be focused directly at middle and lower income families who will suffer the most.
Johanna, I appreciate you mentioning narrative in your response. The democratic guardrails also referenced lean into on what this country is founded upon- the narrative of a Judeo-Christian ethic as well as the constitution. All that does is package up all the "otherness" and transport it century after century, millennia after millennia up into today. The racism, the sexism, the white supremacy is all one big fat sandwich being served daily.
SPOT ON ! STEVE! MANKIND, NEEDS to Follow JESUS ! as OUR Example !
I would like to recommend a book for your consideration. After Jesus Before Christianity
As so much in the Bible, likely apocryphal. But for a reason: it is an excellent example of the use of metaphor to teach that change is possible, that even Jesus as messiah was capable both of being wrong, and of learning from the least among us. And changing as a result. Thank you, Melinda, for reminding us of this important lesson.
Anne When I was in Sunday School I was not taught the difference between the Old and the New Testament. Later I learned that the New focused on Jesus Christ, love, and forgiveness, while the god of the Old Testament could Vicious and vengeful.
Mmm, yes. As a child I was taught that the Old Testament was history, and that the New Testament was about God sending his only child to live among people and teach them the way to salvation, that being "Do unto others...."
I was taught that in Jewish tradition, many stories were not meant to be taken literally: they were metaphors for things that needed to be remembered but dangerous to speak aloud literally. I cannot say anything about the truth of this, not being Jewish, but this is what Jewish friends explained to me, and I've read something about it in some of my explorations. So I came to understand that the Old Testament has to be read in a different way than the New Testament.
I learned the new teachings were taught orally for a long time before being written down by people who did not know Jesus and whose stories varied. Jesus spoke Aramaic, while the writers spoke and wrote Greek that was later translated into various other languages. That many versions of stories existed and there was not agreement about which were valid representations of what Jesus taught and did. That some of the tellers and writers were women who were ignored until copies of their stories were found among other spiritual writings. That the stories existed independently from each other until followers began to gather stories they believed were about Jesus together, with different groups often gathering different stories. That the time came when it became politically expedient to choose some stories to be printed together as dogma, and so there came to be a number of different books of scripture (scripture=writing; bible=book) that scholars are still trying to sort out.
A friend who was a pastor and biblical scholar (PhD), as well as a social activist, told me it is likely that the person represented as Jesus was probably a compendium of a number of different people whose stories came to be connected through oral transmission. Recently someone published a book claiming that Jesus had been a Buddhist monk. This is actually a belief I've held for a long time: Buddhist teaching had been spreading in all directions from India for centuries, and in the area we call the middle east, there had been a number of teachers going back at least 200 years before Jesus whose teachings reflected buddhist philosophy- as did Jesus.
I don't claim to be any kind of authority on the history of Christianity, but that is a kind of brief map of part of my journey, based on scholarly and spiritual study. What the Old Testament is and what it means depends on how it is defined. The Torah is five books, and as the old sayings goes "all the is commentary- that is, interpretation. What books are included in the Christian version of "Old Testament" depends on the sect. Ditto the New Testament. And the meaning of both depends on what kind of assumptions one brings to reading.
So, Keith, there is something to think about.
And calling women dogs hasn't disappeared. They only need to be unattractive.
Unattractive according to them/their standards.
Yes, or women viewed as lesser like prostitutes. It's one of those things that really fries me.
That was just an allegory like the parables to show the point of God's mercy and love for anyone who has faith in God. The Israelites were the 1st people to have a covenant with El Shaddai, living God on high, thanks to father Abraham who is the founder for not only those of the Jewish faith, but also the Christian and Muslim faithful.
The SyroPhoenician woman was only asking for God's blessing to be part of Jesus's Kingdom of Heaven. Our Lord just chided her gently with the promise of God's covenant fulfilled 1st to the Jewish people as God Almighty had always promised. She was showing her true faith in the son of God by saying that even the dogs live off the scraps of the children, which shows that God loves and accepts everyone who has faith in Him. That's also why the blessings of Christianity passed also unto the Gentiles thru the ministry of St Paul, but that's a further development of why we're all God's children if we want to believe in His everloving salvation.
Where oh where are the preachers in the pulpits explaining this?
Lynn,
It is WAY more important to explain to folks why they are at the edge of going to hell than to explain why acceptance, love and forgiveness make sense.
Because, when you scare the shite out of people, they listen much better.
I always like something I saw about 25 years ago in Knoxville, TN. On the Alcoa highway going south to the airport someone had painted a well done little sign which said HELL IS HOT complete with flames painted at the bottom. It was up for several months in this wooded section of the road. Then one night someone put up another little sign underneath that said "So was your wife". Two days later both signs were gone.
Dave, a laugh-out loud moment in the midst of some very sobering postings. Thanks!
I have a friend raised in (escaped from) a cult.
They don't listen better, but they comply better.
MIKE ! It does take BALANCE, and the Wisdom, of the HOLY SPIRIT, to Draw MANKIND to the LOVE! of GOD! GOD LOVES! But! GOD, is Also JUST! Teaching FEAR, causes MANKIND to not UNDERSTAND GODS Desire that HE would WANT All MANKIND, to be SAVED! Thats why GOD, Gave MANKIND FREEWILL !!
Would you please stop with the capitalization and exclamation points? Just say it plain mr cramer.
...and use your own brain.
Aye, lad.
Some do
The good ones are careful about wading too far into the political, it's a fine line.
Oh, they exist, and there are even some here on LAAF. I am a sort of agnostic Quaker/Buddhist, but when I was a child, my lapsed Mormon mother sent me to Sunday School at a small nearby church, after checking to make sure that the teachers weren't hell-and-brimstone types.
I loved it: we did Bible related crafts meant to understand the culture of the time, and heard bible stories (complete with felt board!) about Jesus and his teachings through example, sang joyful songs, some worshipful, some not. My mother instructed me to come straight home after, and not to ever go to the service right after. She had heard them calling out in response, and feared that they might have the fire-and-brimstone mentality.
But one Sunday, we children were gathered into the grown-up church "because we have a special preacher visiting us and we want you to be able to listen too". Me: curious and always tending to see what the grown-ups were doing; of course I went. The special teacher turned out to be a small black man, the first black person I'd seen since my family left Portland after WW2. The congregation itself was mostly white, but now sprinkled with black faces: the people who were traveling with the preacher.
It was wonderful. He almost sang his sermon, his voice was at times soft and gentle, other times ringing out. He spoke of joy and hope and love and service to others. He spoke at one point to us children, gently letting us know that we might stumble at times on our path, but to just get up and take the next step. People sang out and called out. During the songs, they sometimes danced, clapped their hands, laughed. It was a revealing moment and it has stayed with me all these years and still informs who I am.
When I went home and told my mom, she was at first upset and I think a little angry. "But, Mommy", I told her, " It wasn't like that. It was all about Loooooove." My parents listened to me describe the sermon and how people were happy and singing and amen-ing. And changed their minds. That winter I got to play Mary in the Christmas pageant, and my parents came to watch.
They stayed apostate Mormons, and I stayed the inquisitive little girl that grew up to explore all kinds of things. I still love old-fashioned gospel music, and have been known to get caught up in the music at gospel events. Yet I turned into an introspective, questioning spiritual agnostic who prefers a quiet meditative Quaker meeting (as opposed to "church Quakers" (we have many flavors). We talk in our Friendly Forums about the same kind of concerns we express here on LAAF, and are active in various causes and social concerns. One of the delights is learning how many other Quakers are here as well, and I suspect many people with Buddhist leanings (even if they don't call it that).
Glad to be here.
Silent Meeting fir Worship saved my sanity during my last two years in Orange County, Ca.
Many are preaching CN from the pulpits
Lynn, they're out there. You just have to search a little bit to find them. They tend to eschew the spotlight and just set about doing the work Christ exhorts them to do, without calling attention to themselves. It's the loud-mouthed evangelists out for themselves who tend to suck all the oxygen out of the room.
there ARE ! Some Holy GHOST Lead PREACHERS ! that Speak HIS TRUTH ! NOT False Doctrine !!
It seems to me that a large number of “Christians in Name Only” exist as the “Evangelical Right”; professing an allegiance to The Lord while ignoring his actual message in their zeal to remake society in their own image by brute force. The Power of Christ was his Word and his humanity toward “the least of us”. Where does one find that in Orban, CPAC, Evangelicals, Putin or the Murdoch Empire?
You don’t. Orban et al’s use of the word Christianity is a blasphemy. It should be pointed out each time they invoke it
Christian Nationalism according to people who study it, like PRRI & WHITEHEAD, it has very little to do with the actual message of Christ. The studies point out that there is a strong correlation between white Protestant evangelicals & CN, not all evangelicals are CN. Christian Nationalism calling themselves Christian's is like the Maga calling themselves Republicans. The PRRI has a good summary of how & what CN thinks/believes. Robert Jones is CEO & author of several books re CN
Carole, thank you for the specificity re Evangelicals and CN’s. My use of Evangelical seem to be a brush bit too wide.
It blows me away ! P56 in Taking American Back talks about Jeffress a minister'sermon that was devoid of Christian values & full of political misinformation & literally a call to arms
In my kid days, on the back of comic books were ads that promoted art schools; Draw Lincoln, send in your picture, win awards…. Or in Mad Magazine, “learn brain surgery by correspondence school”. Matchbook covers had “Divinity School” quick study “get your certified Minister’s badge now”
Kinda makes ya wonder, huh? Sign up now for the DJT University of Theology
Dave isn’t Jesus Christ/evangelical ‘Christian’ an oxymoron?
Thank you for your first sentence (and the others, too!). I'm a minister (ret.) and when I hear "Christian Democracy" used by the right wingers (in Hungary or the U.S.) or DeSantis et al talking about "Christian Values" in their very unChristian attacks, I am sickened and angered. If I were DeSantis's pastor (or rabbi or imam), I would go to his home or office and perform an exorcism on him. Sorry to rant!
Thank you for your perspective, Robert. Should you need backup for that exorcism, I’d like to join you. I will bring my Star of David to burn a hole in his heart.
Wow. I didn't know...
I think it is important for people to learn about CN in that not all Christians or evangelicals are CN. The podcast by PRRI &Brookings has some very interesting info of the break down of belief in various religious groups.
Totally agree. As an example, I find myself explaining to friends (mainly non-religious ones) that evangelicals cannot be lumped into one group. There are the unfaithful ones who totally embraced and kissed the ring of Trump (or a part of his anatomy). Then there those I think who are faithful ones whose lives are lived firmly grounded in the Sermon on the Mount. Disclaimer: I am not an evangelical!
The sad fact is that the nasty and oppressive ones are the ones who get the most recognition.
ROBERT ! PREACH IT! How it IS ! The WORD ! is a DOUBLE EDGED SWORD! MANKIND! Needs to Have a Saul/ to PAUL ! MOMENT !
I am using insults to not be bullied into silence & how not to reply in kind.
As a non-Christian, I would ask whether any serous person really believes that Jesus would affirm the ideas of the “Christian” nationalists? (Not Christian democracy—-in post-war Europe Christian democratic parties were the liberal answer to Communism.)
Oh, and has anyone pointed out to Viktor Orban that his Magyar ancestors were immigrants to what is now Hungary?
Jon Jesus would be excluded from evangelical ‘Christianity’ and Eisenhower would be excluded from today’s ‘Republican Party.’
As someone who had the privilege of lunching with David Ben-Gurion in 1954 and then spending over an hour listening to him in his book-filled study, I believe that BG would be banned (for good reason) from Netanyahu’s cabinet. I am now embarrassed that a tree was planted for me in Israel.
My opinion from observation is that No. The born again Christians do not need to reconcile what Jesus would do in our current situation. To them the end times are upon us. The Christians are going to heaven and the others are not. Jesus would approve because those people who are damned should have listened when we told them they had to say the sentence “I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.” But they didn’t listen and now there is nothing we can do to save them. But we’ll pray for them .🙏🏼
Well, all of those good "Christians" better run up to the head of the line on Judgment Day, because if they get behind us Jews they're going to wait through eternity while we argue with God.
Laughter ringing down all over me.
But you forget our War in Iraq.
300,000 Iraqis dead “from direct war-related violence caused by the U.S., its allies, the Iraqi military and police, and opposition forces.”
7,000 U.S. military personnel dead
8,000 Pentagon contractors dead
30,000 U.S. veterans have committed suicide
Today, the coffers of the Iraqi state treasury are empty, even though the country should have earned $500 billion in oil revenues since 2003. Corruption and inefficiency handcuff the country.
For the U.S.: $6 trillion spent even before the ISIL campaign of 2014-2019. Without the sums squandered in Iraq, our national debt would still be below our annual gross national product, putting us in a much more favorable economic position in 2023. As in today’s Russia, in the zeros of this century a war mentality fostered a fierce intolerance of dissent and of difference on the right, which is still unfolding.”
from Juan Cole
https://tomdispatch.com/the-american-war-from-hell-20-years-later/?utm_source=TomDispatch&utm_campaign=bed8da6319-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2021_07_13_02_04_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1e41682ade-bed8da6319-308749077
For me Christian Nationalism is the clearest explanation of what is being expressed by what I am calling RINOS as they no longer represent the values of the GOP. Staying under cover as R, it keeps those who vote R rather than issues & values , in the flock into the cult. PRRI has a website where the thinking of CN is discussed as well as their research. Andrew Whitehead has TAKING AMERICA BACK FOR GOD. TEACHING CRITICAL THINKING by Bell Hooks gives some insight into understanding CN disruption of schools. It is mental gymnastics to try to understand how far & foreign & disturbing this ideology is.
Thanks David. Language is our most powerful, least understood and deadliest technology.
Christianity has never been Christian. By CE 60, Nero was already burning pitch-coated Christians at his infamous Garden Party, alongside other "criminal elements." Christians continued to be a problem for Rome for three centuries, and arguably played a major role in its downfall. Virtually all of the slaveowners in early America were Christian. The "witchfinders" and prosecutors of "witches" based on spectral evidence (dreams) were all Christian.
Sadly, you are spot-on. During my graduate study at Seminary, I learned for the first time how the two councils (the First Council of Nicea and the Second Council of Constantinople) of The early Fathers were rife with violence and anger, each one of many sides holding that THEIR interpretation of Scripture was the correct interpretation. The Gnostic Gospels were kept out of the Canons, because the Gnostic Gospels did not reside well with the early religious patriarchs. I also learned during my graduate study what "Jesus" did and did not say, often contrary to what I was taught in Sunday School while growing up; or, how my old man decided to interpret his version of Scripture. The Rev'd Dr. Neville, Dean, Boston University School of Theology said at the beginning of his 1999 welcoming to new post-graduate students, "God is wild and cannot be fully domesticated."
Reality: Those folks are not even close to being truly Christian. They are a blood stain on the Faith, evangelicals having corrupted and contaminated the Faith in such a way that the truly devout shy away from openly claiming Christianity. The false prophets and the apostates thrive in such environs.
Do not shy away, but rather make distinctions in real time
“I am a Christian and we do not believe what those people profess is Christianity”
Christian is being used as a red fig leaf.
I would but I am not a Christian
I meant "the term/concept" Christian is being used to hide what it actually is. I just wrote a tidbit about using one thing to hide another through shell grass roots organizations. If we argue about it, they've hidden it from us or ... I think that's the plan.
Good one Kathyinthewallowas, "shell grass roots orgs ..." Careful, con quidado,, Artificial Turf has proven toxic to baseball players.
on the OR for Food and Shelter shell, we went ahead and banned 6 herbicides from public lands in the NW because our epidemiologist found all the data on cancer for them. OFS did not like that much, but we got them talking to NW Coalition for Alternatives to Pesticides by the end of it. Our project had its origins in a court case that resulted from an effort to resolve the knife and gun hostage situation some of our field people found themselves in. It was epic.
Thank you David , well said.
You are not the arbitrator of who is and who is not a Christian. You are making a denominational argument, one that is irrelevant to the matter at hand and entrenches Christian Supremacist ideas. Christians ARE what they do in this world. Not what you would aspire for them to be.
This framing is unhelpful. You make sectarian argument that centers you as the arbitrator of True Christianity ™️, that entrenches toxic ideas of Christian innocence and supremacy. Christians ARE what they do in this world. Not what you would aspire for them to be.
Consider the work of @C_Stroop:
https://religiondispatches.org/the-fake-christian-deflection-and-contrarian-concern-trolling-how-not-to-write-about-evangelical-authoritarianism/
https://cstroop.com/2017/05/03/about-those-trump-voters-for-god-stop-calling-them-fake-christians/
https://religiondispatches.org/stop-trying-to-save-jesus-fandamentalism-reinforces-the-problem-of-christian-supremacism/
jm_rives: Let's be clear about language.
I am hardly the "arbiter" of much of anything, because I have very little power in this world to arbitrate, and I certainly cannot coerce people to my will or my viewpoint.
I CAN have observations, opinions, and arguments about a great many things, and (so far) the freedom to express them. The continuation of such freedom is precisely the point of Heather's post, and precisely what would be forbidden under Illiberal Christian society, or as I prefer to call it, Christofascism.
I am certainly not making a denominational argument. I'm quite familiar with a range of "denominations" of Christianity, both current and historical. Despite their differences, they all have in common broad and consistent deviation in practice from the teachings of Christ in the Gospels.
This is -- in my OPINION -- a direct consequence of their need to govern their congregations. The model of governance is top down, from the extreme case of the Pope and the Curia, down to the small, backwoods Fundamentalist sect that rules from the pulpit, and punishes through social shunning, gossip, and threat of expulsion from the group. One does not openly debate with ANY minister (that I am aware of) in front of the congregation.
If you want a more nuanced OPINION across a larger historical vision, read H. Richard Niehbuhr's Christ and Culture (1951).
Jm, thank you for your comment. I think I agree with you, if you mean that people are what they do not simply what they claim to be. So if Christian's don't do Christian acts, then they are not Christian? Is that agreeable? I will read your links. I am not an arbiter of who are Christians anymore than anyone is an arbiter of who I am. However to participate in society, I do observe what people do, and comment on it both when its helpful to others and when its harmful. No one should hang for my comments, nor when my comments are mutally shared among many others. However we are dealing with many current issues and situations today where groups holding out their identities by skin color, religion, gender, etc as they hang people in the media, shooting them, or withholding rights, etc. These groups do not tie their hands with self assessment and correction. I doubt we can be perfect in addressing these issues.
There is a marked and recognizable difference between people who follow Christ’s teachings in context and people who “profess” to do so, but do something else. Playing a Christian on TV is not the same actually being one
Food for thought…
We are good at defining the problem, not good at solving.
And all of these protests that "they aren't really Christians" does not even define the problem; it wrings its hands over the harm done to the name of Christianity itself.
Wait. What is this about? Oh. Trans folk, LGBTQ+ folk? They'll have to wait. The Christians need to get their terms straightened out first.
People are already dying from this wave of legislation, but it is good to know that here, we will be certain of who the good Christians are, and who the bad.
A few folks are actually adept at multitasking. Its not a zero sum issue
We can call out unChristlike behaviors snd support LGBQT. Issues at the same time, right? Right
I hope so.
The longest, most replied-to thread here is, as far as I can tell, focused on language and who owns words.
If someone is talking about what they are doing to support the LGBTQ+ people they know, or asking what they can do, or, I don't know, referring people to trans writers who have been grappling with the problem of violence against us for decades, I have not found them yet.
I may have some ideas, though.
Is it your point that people should focus on what you think is most important first as a ticket to be allowed talk about they want to, next?
Recognizing a problem exists is a bit different than defining one. Defining requires problem solving techniques typically missing from the finger pointing mob mentality we often witness
That is the human cunundrum! We witness this "failure" in daily life.
CW: violent genocide of gender-variant Native Americans
The history of European Christianity is filled with violence toward "sexual deviants", "heathens", and other perceived enemies of the Christian Church in Europe. Both Catholics and Protestants supported the genocide of Native Americans--who, in the earliest days of contact, were persecuted for allowing expression of more than the two genders that European Christianity believed that their god mandated for all human life. Non-gender conforming individuals were literally thrown to the dogs to be dismembered alive.
Does European Christianity "really" derive from their own posited Satanic forces? Does it matter when over 1000 years of persecution, first in Europe and Asia, and then in the Americas, flew under the Christian flag that is still used in American churches today?
When they come after this gender queer body, it won't matter at all whether they are really Christian or not. The tradition has already tried to kill me several times over.
This is powerful. Powerful, indeed. As an ordained graduate Seminarian, I learned a LOT about Christianity during graduate study that I otherwise would not have learned. Since then, nearly three decades later, I have weaned myself away from much of the Faith. Regarding Native Spirit in relation to homosexuals, they saw the homosexual tribal member as the "third eye": the one who lived within in the circle of the tribe while being able to see the tribe from outside the circle.
White man has left much blood across our land, whether it has been red skin, black skin or brown, our white "culture" fights to halt or eradicate difference. One need only listen to the remarks Michael Knowles made at the latest CPAC meeting: “For the good of society … transgenderism must be eradicated from public life entirely — the whole preposterous ideology, at every level.” That, indeed, echoes the Nazi philosophy and practice of "purifying" the human race. Who would be next?
Further proof that the Right is The Enemy and must be stopped by every means necessary.
And how ironic they are called the "Right".
The religious right is neither (stolen from Twitter before I got banned)
Conflating church with state corrupts both. Jesus was an ascetic.
I now no longer say; “That’s right!” I now say; “That is correct.” The term “right” gives me the heebeejeebies. Lol.
In assisting doctors on some procedures, I was trained to say "correct" to affirm what part of the body they were working on rather than say "right". (To prevent mishaps ,like the wrong body part being removed, the doc would state what procedure they were about to perform on what part of the body.)
In an Ohio public school, my mother, who was left handed, was forced to write with her right hand (it never worked). The teacher would slap her knuckles with a ruler if she was caught favoring her left hand. My son-in-law is a "leftie" (in more ways than one) and one of the most talented individuals I have ever met. Nature obviously favors diversity.
The remarkable diversity of dogs is selectively brought forward from the genome of a single species. "Weeds" may produce seeds that are specialized for different germination conditions from the same individual plant. That's adaptability. That's resilience. That, combined with effort produced Bach, and Einstein and Olympian athletes.
Many species have a less creative array of behaviors than we do, the bird that mates with the bird that does the dance most perfectly, compared to the diverse forms of human courtship; but isn't that our advantage? All animals eat, but we often cook as an art. I think that at our best, we replace conformity with solidarity, and reap complications but also very rich rewards by doing so.
“Nature obviously favors diversity.“
Obvious to anyone interested in the scientific method. Unfortunately as I’ve stated in multiple posts today, the scientific method has gotten flushed into the dustbin of history by school vouchers and Christian dominionism.
The scientific method is a meticulous way to "check it out". It is inconvenient for those who are invested in inaccuracies. Reality always wins in the end no matter what, but realities we have managed to sleepwalk into are not necessarily pretty.
Any means that does not make us sociopaths too.
And all this word salad makes sense, how?
You have to douse it in Balsamic Vinaigrette, add two cups of minced metaphors, and sprinkle grated pages from a blank book titled, "I AM TOO A POET!"
Add a bottle of wine and a couple of shots of Absinthe, and it will all make perfect sense.
:-)
Pretty sure you’re missing the required pinch of LSD 😁
😄😄😄😄😄 Wonderful advice Joseph.
Have no idea. Hope you are recovering.
You lost me somewhere in the fourth scene of the second act of a B version of The Godfather. Nice try though as it is snowing outside here as well. I hope you get around to adding some good old fashion sex and a love story leading to redemption of the entire mob family. Then, maybe serving them all up with the fishes in bullet proof vests will make sense to me. I enjoyed the diversion.
“Christians” eagerly await the return of Christ. I hope he gets here soon and straightens these conflicted followers out— again arriving as non-white, maybe enjoying a little lipstick with his long hair. I eagerly await, too.
Berry,
Having grown up in an East Texas, Protestant church, and having been imbued in the "end of times apocalypse" hypotheses when I left, I can say:
During the "end of times", in the Protestant telling, not much good is going to happen. That's why all the white Christians are buying AR15's. Apparently, during the "end of times" the 10 Commandments will be suspended and killing people will be OK.
:-)
Wul yes cuz someone’s got to save the 10 Commandments, right?
Gotta fight for Jesus, yep, because all the bad people that are going to hell need to be eliminated. Yep.
"Bad people" here are widely defined as "not like me". Not kidding.
But if they did that Who will the Christian Nationalists project their own badness onto if they get rid of them all?
Humans are quite deft at finding someone to demonize.
I would not sweat it too much. :-)
Indeed, they will go back to subjugating women, or focus on it more.
Susan, they will eat their own at that point
Ew.
Each other?
That's what history suggests.
Please, this kind of statement is as hurtful as the other side! Far from "ALL" Christians are buying AR15s!! A ridiculous and insulting statement
As someone who has experienced first hand how "Christianity" operates (there are quote marks around "Christianity" for a reason), I understand your obligatory "not all" here. If Mike S. had said "white Christion nationalists" would it feel like less of a "ridiculous and insulting statement"? What Mike S. describes as his experience of "white Christian" religion is being something so utterly un-"Christian"-like that is (hopefully and apparently) completely antithetical to you experience as a "Christian".
Religion is a man-made construct to help people try and explain both the unexplainable and (at least so far, but science is working on it) unknowable. It has been used as a weapon throughout history, and is being used as such today.
So yeah, some of us look in at Christianity and do not see anything other than malice and control.
Ally,
Many thanks. I goofed up my comment and thanks for covering for me.
I owe you.
mike
Just keep writing.
Ally, wonderfully said!
Excellent!
Aye.
Ally, I agree…but also believe “all the White Christians are buying AR 15’s “ does not help the dialogue.
Of course you are absolutely right, Elizabeth. It would be interesting to know exactly how many who fly under the banner of Christianity DO own an AR-15 though wouldn’t it?
I think the more interesting statistic would be, how many of those who own an AR-15 claim to be Christian.
Even better.
Good to know 😳
What is good to know?
How one branch of Christianity thinks, I suspect.
Thanks.
READ ; MATHEW, Verses 1 / through , 14 ! This is JESUS ! ( The WORD!) SPEAKING !
I have a friend who grew up similarly, same mind set, same general location.
Mike Pompeo's big thing is creating war so as to bring it on.
You mean Pompous wants to make war to bring on the Apocalypse, Rapture and End Times? Good gravy, what a complete tool! What makes him think he is among the "righteous", I wonder.
He lost a ton of weight that he carried on his shoulders so now he thinks he’s Atlas, must hold the world in his creepy hands. Can’t stomach him and his lies!
Yeah... that's what made his role in Trump admin so spooky. I like your question about it!
💵👌🏻...a little bit of this maybe?
uh huh!
If patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel, religion is a close second-to-last.
The Trump/Putin/Orbán Axis enthusiastically combines both.
The recent emergence of this neo-Christian nationalism, to my mind, underscores what is at stake in Ukraine’s struggle against Putin’s invasion, and why it is important for democracies everywhere, including ours, that an independent, democratic Ukraine ultimately prevails. From this point of view, it also becomes self-evident why US conservatives want to cut off US support to Volodymyr Zelenskyy and thus give Ukraine to Putin. We would do well to remember that Adolf Hitler had many US supporters, and still does to this day.
Yes we must remember that.
In my experiences with scoundrels their very last refuge is a big lie quietly spoken. Oh yes.
This lie is backed by either patriotism or religion or both. But it’s mainly backed by reminding the hopeful onlookers of their unfair treatment and victimhood and how so many people are laughing at them behind their backs. Oh yes, everyone sees it, they say.
Indeed! Victims, innocent, hard-working, morally pure, victims whose problems are all someone else’s fault. Jews, liberals, people of a different color, anyone different from them are causing all the “problems” in the world.
You make a very good point, Susan.
Hahaha. So true.
It’s a serious and untreatable Personality Disorder. It’s untreatable because this Personality type can’t be wrong so they never seek help.
Good, Ralph. These so called victims are often the same people who refuse to be wrong about anything. And they want a savior, not simply good advice and some help.
Those so-called victims are also the ones to insist others having hard times need to pick themselves up by themselves without anyone’s help.
Help victims. Do everything possible to help them to their feet again.
Keep your distances from professional victims -- those who have welded victimhood to their identity. They are potentially dangerous.
At 89 I have lived in a country and world that has been ‘volatile’ about LGBTQ. In my early years being gay or lesbian was considered ‘dreadful’ by many people and institutions. In the US government, being suspected of being gay was cause for dismissal.
In my innocence, I didn’t realize that one of my roommates at college was gay. It didn’t matter to me.
The Catholic Church was especially horrified by ‘gay,’ though, in historical retrospect, the lives of a number of priests did not seem straight.
In Hollywood being publicly gay (or lesbian) was a major PR no no. During my years in Egypt, I was puzzled by the public hand holding of young men in Cairo. Again, no big deal.
Fast forwarding to present day, individual sexuality remains on the front burner with various pseudo-religious groups including evangelical ‘Christian’s’ and the old-men-dominated-Catholic Church.
Medical evidence has highlighted the complexity of ‘transgender,’ and being gay or lesbian is broadly acknowledged as ‘natural,’ by many. This has become an anti-rallying cry by what I characterize as the non-Christian-white-male-superiority right.
I say ‘non-Christian, because such intolerance profoundly conflicts with Jesus Christ’s adherence to love, inclusiveness, and forgiveness.
The Conservative Political Action Conference (CRAP) reflects this overwhelming white-male bigotry. Meanwhile, we have a gay man in President Obama’s cabinet and various gay and lesbian individuals elected to Congress and to major state and city positions.
I find this current political focus on fear and bigotry despicable. It seems integral to the false facts of the chauvinistic political right and is a political springboard for presidential candidate DeSantis.
Maybe it’s the time we were born failed to develop an aversion to gay people. I’m 88 years old and as I passed through my teens boyhood friends were identified as queer. I was not close to them and never thought them as dangerous.
As an adult my more religious relatives and friends assured me gay people were dangerous.
I concluded years ago it was just a religious thing. Now it’s political and I think it’s become a Republican strategy to identify two minority castes people of color and now LGBTQIA+ as people to deisdain.
It is the same strategy of the Nazi’s to assure the majorities there were inferior groups among them that were to be targeted as lesser human beings.
Lincoln was right there is no replacement for equality of humanity. None whatsoever.
Such dignity as you possess rights the cart and raises the bar Keith. Would that all Americans were made in the same mold.
So very succinct and to the point. very well said. ILike it!
All life in all time appears to be a constant ebb and flow of conflict between power structures or belief structures. Every other generation believes these political struggles are new and unique to their time. But they’ve been like this from jump. Seems like all of history can be explained by who we are right now as a people. 45% fearful and 55% loving.
I mean those percentages are within each individual.
I especially like your last paragraph.
Excellent analysis 👏 👍
Although RD is younger than me, I still put him up there with what I call “Old white men”.
Ron DeSantis is my guess.
Ally Bingo! RD is a sanitized version of DeSantis. I needed a second cup of coffee
Sanitized DeSantis. It sings. But I've been relistening to Hamilton of late.
Bring back Burr for a reprise of Weehaken in FL.
Burr was a pair to draw to, as my Twin used to say before she passed.
Nancy Pardon my obliqueness, but who is RD?
Ron?
Well said 👏
Ask yourself how badly do you want to walk on your fellow man. Ask yourself how badly you want to be walked on. The answer will come to you which camp you belong in. There ain’t no wiggle room here.
I have posted this before, but it seems a vividly stated ground rule: "As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy. Whatever differs from this, to the extent of the difference, is no democracy. - Lincoln) Those who would be masters to lord it over others seem to be the bane of our species' history. Yes, there is a need for governance, but governments deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed is a whole different deal. Apart from a foundation of universal, unalienable rights and responsibilities, only pathological narcissists think the whole world should value and behave only what they do.
Thank you, JL, for a masterful posting that gets to the root of the issue. Brief, succinct, to the point.
Lincoln had a gift for that. The scientific method delivers High Definition clarity for our intelligence. Poetry often delivers HD clarity for our sentient experience of life.
"Let me make the songs of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws." - Unknown
Pat,
Well, "Ask yourself how badly do you want to walk on your fellow man.".
There is a woman on my street that absolutely thinks I should not be living on her street. Period. She is kinda vocal about it, hence, my knowledge of her perspective.
I can't say I would not mind walking on her to be completely honest. But, thus far, at least, I have managed to avoid doing so. My wife keeps reminding me that I will instantly, upon making that walk, be placed in the Federal Penitentiary system.
:-)
No one said it was going to be easy, Mike. I’ve been shot at, stabbed, choked and beaten unconscious. I love my new teeth. Life is not a cakewalk. I'm not complaining but I am not a Patsy either. I am aware that others are far more damaged. It’s a brutal species and we have each other’s backs when we are at our best. Your neighbor disgusts me. Think like Dr. King. Think like Nelson Mandela. Think like Sister Incarnata.
Pat,
All I can say is DANG! Sounds like a tough go for sure. I really hope it is a downhill slope from here for you.
It’s no sweat Mike. I’m more Irish than Hispanic. The combination is hard to live up to.🤐
Nelson Mandela said “There are victories whose glory lies only in the fact that they are known to those who win them.”
(and their higher power)
I’m sorry you are having to endure this blatant discrimination, Mike. Most people are on your side not hers for whatever that’s worth. I wish you strength in the face of her blind hatred.
Or worse, she is probably armed. Sorry Mike.
Had not thought of that to be honest. Thanks for the warning.
Words are serious weapons.
Words go deeper than a bullet.
Lies can and do kill. They are doing so as we speak.
🤣....judging always has me looking in the mirror and slapping myself in the face..as a Christian I feel Christ loved even the sinner, walked forgiveness , hated the sin but not who committed it..I have to ask myself in that moment of frequent judgement ..’have you ever done that?’ ..always checking my own back yard and lots of prayer to be ..better. Sometimes the humor is self-reflection , like autocorrect excepting today IPad often puts words in my fingers I didn’t intend...it’s certainly a different era..not like the deliverance from Rock and Roll , right? Here in WV we say Bless your(our) Hearts ...and alls forgiven, Mike😉
Mike S - the fact you have to think about it, and the fact you listen to your wife and thus do not, is proof you are not one of those who "walks on." You're in agreement with Clarence Darrow, when he said "I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great relish."
TC,
Thanks for the good smile man. You rock!
When I was commuting to my university years ago (I lived at home) I befriended an older Hispanic woman in my program. We drove together to save on gas but more for the monthly parking fees. She and her husband were both 2nd generation. They were good people. Her husband's hobby was to tend to their vegetable garden in their small inner city yard. She told me that the block racist insisted that they were "Italian" so she could be a recipient of his tomatoes, zucchini, etc. They both rolled their eyes on it and let it go.
My daughter in law is from Lebanon. I tell her that Lebanese are descended from the Apache whenever the racists start on her.
Some seem drawn to a society in which people get to walk on each other (in layers) and others to a society where we stand together, not just as robots in a totalitarian regime, but as diversely oriented and talented individuals, collectively determining our own fate as a society and a species. Of, by and for all of the people.
I'm sorry to be ignorant, but why is she opposed to you? Are you a POC? Do you have Biden signs on your lawn?
Mike often refers to his "non-white sounding surname" and in other posts has articulated that he is also "white appearing". He also lives in one of the most segregated areas in the north.
Thank you Ally House.
Neither camp is the response. No wiggle room necessary.
When is the EU going to expel Orban/Hungary?
When are Hungarians going to expel Orbán?
And Belarusians Lukashenko?
And Russians Putin?
And...
When are floridians going to expel desantis? Oh wait, the vocal minority adores him. The silent majority does what? Looks for a party leader? Before the party itself is banned?
Hey! Who sez we're silent? We keep pulling the damn lever and nothing happens...
I know you do. Hence I've participated in several get out the vote projects for FL.
Have you read much about Wes Moore, the new governor of Maryland? I'd like to see him run for president.
Yes!! He’s great!
I’ve read a little about him. He strolls.
What does "strolls" mean?
I picked this descriptive word out of a hat Patricia.
Why did DeSantis win re-election by a landslide? Are Floridians really that supportive of his anti-democratic policies?
He ran against Charlie Crist. A former braindead GOPer now a braindead Dimocrat. Not a lot of enthusiasm there.
Some of us are horrified.
...and republicans MAGA? What happened anyhow? How did we get from Eisenhower to Trump/DeSantis/electiondeniers...I’m sure someone’s written a book, right?
Yes, Heather did - “To Make men Free, A History of the Republican Party” published in 2014. Ian reading it now.
Thank you , Sarah
Perfect read, illumining and in-depth information with much substation. If you haven't done so already, get busy.
When EU is sure it does not have to expel Poland as well; and can ignore the thin margin democracy has in Germany and France. To continue thought games: why not give Hungary back to Russia, where it wants to be, in exchange for Ukraine?
I doubt Orban and Putin want to share power!
When the US expels floriduh?
Please, no. Some of us are stuck in Florida for reasons beyond politics and won’t survive the authoritarianism imposed in desantisland.
Exactly. With you on that.
Escape while you can, before the border walls are built and the SS troops with their brothers, the Gestapo go on patrol. Your papers!! Ve must zee your Papers! Ve Vill Talk unt you vill Lizzen!! I couldn't pass up the opportunity to chime in.
I have had several unpleasant encounters over the years with (SS, Gestapo-like) Border Control men over the years. I'm a 75+, white, soft-speaking, well-behaved woman, so the treatment of POC has to be much worse. That said, the last time I crossed from Mexico, the border guard was smiling and friendly! I often vascilate between 'stay and fight for democracy' and 'flight to somewhere else'! I do know that younger people than I am will stay and fight and that heartens me.
It turns out that "flight to somewhere else" may not be doable without at least half a million dollars and or a valued skill set.
I'm in Oregon, and I've been thinking about it because one of the GOP sponsored fake grass roots groups wants to extend the boundaries of Idaho over 2/3 of Oregon's land mass. That's the part that gets treated as flyover country because the illusion is it is "RED". And it can be, but my county alone is 1/3 red, 1/3 blue, 1/3 Indie. The overt reason is so GOP folks can be "comfortable". But watch what Idaho is doing - no legal weed, abortion banning, drag and LGBTQ banning, and voting in favor of taking over Oregon so GOP officials can spend tax $ for political ends. Oh, and we get to have sales tax with it. Part of me wants to run to a less crooked part of the state.
I am shocked to think one state might increase its boundaries over another one, surely not? What a strange country this has become, and so divided. Putin must be rubbing his hands in glee.
Kathy My understanding is that existing state borders are sacrosanct, though with our Stench Court it seems antsy to rely on our Constitution.
The last split that I recall was when West Virginia split from Virginia during the Civil War. At that time, this seemed good.
Perhaps we should rename the state Flouride, and claim that flouride is not just added to tap water, but is in the very air. That might be enough to drive the paranoid MAGAts to abandon the state. Of course, such an exodus might be bad for the sane folk of Idaho...
As Idaho adjacent, there are very very very few of those. Think Aryan nation HQ, and a former GOP Representative among other officials who verbally said "shoot all the feds!" (As one, I have some good death threat stories from my friends stuck there.)
Unfortunately that is not possible according to the articles, however a member can be suspended (whatever good that does)
It turns off the subsidies tap, the source from which Big Criminal Orban and cronies siphon off their wealth and power.
Ed Sadly, I don’t believe that EU can expel Orban/Hungary, although it may ‘suspend’ some cash payments to Hungary.
The battle lines are now very clear...and drag queens, gender fluid and trans people are now the focus of the war over "freedom". Everyone else has had their spotlight time as the target of conservative fear about granting full and equal freedom under the law...black folks, women, gay people...on and on...and now it's come down to the people who were invisible or on the fringe. They are not some new lib creation to vex the Orban's or Gov Lee's of the world. They have been there forever.
Because Mike they are the designated lead in. Once breached all other undesirables will be drawn in and dispatched until no more resist. That is global history. A loose thread from which to unravel a nation.
I hear you...but I do believe this "group" is now being targeted because they are the last bunch of "others" left to attack here. They have been around forever...why now ?
Why? Did you never rope a hippie and cut his hair? (Of course you didn’t ) why target the insane? Why target the deformed? Why target women? Why target other faiths? Because it’s a great way to start. Don’t worry we’ll get around to all of them once we are sure to succeed! We’ve tested the water with immigrants as well and so far too much resistance there. Seems like suddenly everyone’s a damn immigrant. Let’s go back now after those sex perverts they are on their own no one cares about them. God is on our side you should be too.
Pat, I was the hippie...I'd like to see busloads of Dolly impersonators, led by Dolly herself take a peaceful tour of the TN Statehouse with rainbow flags and lets see how Tucker Carlson edits that.
Especially the TN statehouse. Lt Gov Randy McNally made the national news this week. Pictures of the governor in a cheerleader’s outfit in high school (“that’s different”) who signed the strict drag show prohibition along with no treatment for transgender youth. The most restrictive anti-abortion laws in the state—no exceptions—in which McNally told me physicians are required to render “medically necessary” treatment. He obviously doesn’t know what’s in the bill he supported. And of course we have our own publicly ridiculed Marsha Blackburn. Go Vols ❗️
For many years they have been doing "Womanless Pageants" largely in the south in High Schools. Where was the outrage about grooming children? I did some research on the history of drag for a project and came across this stuff. I'm going to write about it on my substack page and post some of the photos...very similar stuff to Gov Lee.
I have read that her long time assistant who chooses her costumes, etc is gay. I bet if the word somehow got to Dolly, she'd do it!!
Any readers have a way to let her know, please do so!
Dolly has always been VERY supportive of the Drag Queens & Trans folks. She has famously said that "if she had been born a man, she'd be a drag queen"
BY "her" do you mean Marsha? I'm a little confused.
As a Baltimorean, I have to laugh that John Waters musical Hairspray is now mainstream. Divine would roll over laughing that John is "accepted" by the middle class.
And because the 2016 election of a pro-Orban, pro-Putin Party and the gradual development of their own major propaganda outlet gave them buckets and buckets of confidence. Their fascism is winning they see no reason to hold back
yes, Trump let the dogs off the chain with his behavior and election...the good news is that it's out in the open now...it's more visible
Agreed! And our job is to make it an even more visible! And I am very grateful for the work you do to increase visibility ❤️🙏
Mike W, I realize that not all conservatives are people of faith, nor are all liberals athiest but at least, in the Christian faith, Christ came to give His life that those who believed in Him would live a new life of love and not be bound by evil (whatever form in which you may consider evil). He came to free sinners, the disobedient ones like myself. Yes, I am still disobedient but I experience His "calling to me in such love, I have to ay least when I am wrong. What I am trying to say is that we should love wvweyone and leave th judgement to God.
Emily I hear you and I appreciate your observation and your belief. Rereading my statements, I feel my judgement was political "judgement" when I talk about battle lines. We all worship, (or not) in a lot of different ways. I don't want people judging me and I don't want to be judging others. Jesus is an incredible teacher no matter your faith tradition. I had an interesting exchange with some conservative Christians who were producing an event I was working in DC on the Mall. I asked them how they could support Trump given the things he says and does. They replied that he supported "their" issues, especially on abortion and that they forgive. I replied that there are other republicans, like Pence, who support them, without the baggage. They basically replied that the end justified the means. I'm not sure Christ would buy that. I seem to remember an issue with the money changers in the Temple.
I hear you, but I do believe that here in the US these folks are getting the brunt of this focus right now because the far right has run out of "other" groups to bully now that gay folks can get married and are seen in TV ads kissing. They have to have someone to fear. Someone to be hostile towards...since racism and gay bashing aren't cool any more. Let's beat up men in dresses...because they are "grooming our children". Who knew that Flip Wilson aka Geraldine Jones...or Jonathan Winters aka Maude Friket were "groomers" right there on prime time TV. I guess that's what inspired RuPaul and all of the Drag Race contestants. We should ask.
I think their choice of targets is partly because attacking LGBTQIA+ folk is sexier than attacking black folks. And sex sells, especially to those with a religio-erotic fetish, like so many of these religious zealots.
As a target choice, advocacy for the LG...A+ tends to split the other progressive groups. Just look to the treatment of gay men in black churches that are otherwise paragons of civil rights support.
There is also the possibility, which I've not tried to confirm, that the LG...A+ group, for reasons that would include the problems arising from discrimination, tends to be less likely to vote. That, plus the fact that the gay community itself is split over support for transgenderism, makes them less likely to fight back effectively.
The Rightwingers are shaping this fight over gender rights as the theme for the next election cycle and no, there's nothing random about it. Bashing gays is sexy, in a weird way, splits the opposition, and they are the politically weakest of the modern minorities. What's not to like?
That's all true. But my sense here is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". This attack by the far right may just pull all of these folks together in this election cycle...and I'm sure the savvy GOP political consultants, the Lee Atwaters of today, figure the trans support group is relatively small, so they make a good target...even better than Willie Horton. They will find the most outrageous drag performance clips with children in the audience and play them over & over. But if the rest of us rise up together in appropriate indignation it turns the tables or at least brings this to a tactical draw. It's too bad Flip Wilson died, Geraldine would be a great spokesperson.
Agreed, on all points.
Trans folk are being attacked because we do not have the power in the marketplace that LGB folk have. In the 1980s it became clear to me that once it was more obvious that gays and lesbians had money to spend, corporate America would put up the rainbow flags and discrimination would be bought out.
I'm not at all a fan of capitalism, but in this one instance, the market actually did something admirable: it showed that buying power can purchase at least a semblance of equality.
Unfortunately, trans folk, especially trans women and transfemme people, are much less likely to live above the poverty level in most states. Anyone who does not pass as cisgendered and who does not live stealth--that is, not disclosing that they are trans--is in an economically precarious spot in the US, where there have been so few protections against job discrimination for the obviously gender-variant.
That and our exceedingly small percentage of the overall population (I think less than 0.3% in most estimates I recall, but don't quote me on that) mean that we don't have a whole lot of power in cultural or market terms.
Erik that's a sad but true observation of our business society at large, not just about trans folks. The same thing happens in the "disease" market. Folks who have name that ailment and are in a small group don't get the research and medications they need because it doesn't pay for the corporations to pay attention to it. Unless the Govt or academia step in, nothing happens. Actually the same thing is true of any product. If there are not enough buyers, it goes away. I sympathize with you. All of this conversation is really making me consider a documentary on the topic. Awareness may help some. Please check out some of my recent writings on my page. I'd be curious to hear your reflections and input from your POV.
If I recall correctly, early Nazi genocide was directed toward the disabled.
Amazing Lincoln, and yet his party has abandoned any pretense of equality for all. One wonders if they, like Rupert’s minions, don’t really believe their own bull Schitt, but use it as a means to power and “green.” Of course, there are many who love to hate, especially among religious cretins, and their bull Schitt just is what makes their hearts sing. I know them, we all do. “Republican” is now what they tried to make “liberal,” the most egregious epithet…
Fascism rules the fools, call them what they are proud to be.
There is a lot of reference to Lincoln here and in many other discussions lately. Inevitably those discussions focus on the Declaration of Independence. It is worth reading “Lincoln at Gettysburg: The Words That Remade America,” a book by Gary Wills. The text maintains that in the Gettysburg Address, Lincoln refocused the nation on the principle of equality as stated in the Declaration as opposed to the primacy of property found in the Constitution.
Jeri, you are correct! When those of us who have received the love of Christ and supposedly have had our hearts changed....first of all due to realizing and admitting to the wrong thoughts and actions we have participated in ...... then condemn others we are the worst humans of all.
It is heartrending to me to see hatred spoken towards our fellowman when we should share the GRACE we have received....not earned due to ANYTHING we have done. Is it so hard to get to know one another as fellow humans.....to care for one another.....not for the sake of control but to live together on this planet helping one another. Each of us have gifts to share that will make our homes, our neighborhoods, our country and our world a better place.
Let's examine how we are being distractd by those who want to control us so that they can have dominion..LOVE is a much more powerful tool for making life better for everyone and everything.
Let's keep working at loving our world our family and our neighbors and not stop. Loving is WORK....it is sacrificial.....but we can do it together.
Thank you Heather.
“Once you give up the principle of equality, you have given up the whole game. You have admitted the principle that people are unequal, and that some people are better than others. Once you have replaced the principle of equality with the idea that humans are unequal, you have stamped your approval on the idea of rulers and subjects. At that point, all you can do is to hope that no one in power decides that you belong in the lesser group.”
Exactly.
Yes-but America gave up the principle of equality long ago when slavery based on skin color became the law of the land.
There’s only the human race but now we have “races” based on skin color with darker skinned people defined as inferior. Even the term “minority” is related to skin color. Some people are “major” and some are “minor”. We’re counting and categorizing people on the basis of skin color.
Targeting “transgenderism” does not mean they’ve given up on “other” groups. Once America reckons with its past, maybe we can flip the script and get back to the principle of equality that was written in our founding documents.
I find it odd that those who dislike or in ‘ways’ show distinct for the dark skinned or darker skinned yet go to the tanning booth to look the same 🤔 boggles me brain!
HA! Good analogy!!
Gina, yes we need a deep reckoning with our past. A good honest history curriculum would help. Honest films help a lot. I like your "major" and "minor" observation. I'm working on a new documentary that I hope will shed some honest light on equality and racial justice, titled "Monumental Struggle". There's going to be an announcement on March 20, so you've heard it here first. Check out my page, there will be updates.
Thanks Mike-I’ll definitely check it out. I’m familiar with the issues you’ve highlighted about the statues in Maryland. Your work with film is important-images teach even more than words sometimes.
that's the heart of this
Hear, Hear!
Lincoln went on: “I should like to know if taking this old Declaration of Independence, which declares that all men are equal upon principle and making exceptions to it…where will it stop?”
It will stop as it stopped in Germany in a war that thankfully, we won. Knowles and people like him would like to see this country, that belongs to all of us, populated by Christian whites. Jews, Muslims, blacks, native Americans and anyone who is not “straight”, need not apply.
"That is the issue that will continue in this country when these poor tongues of Judge Douglas and myself shall be silent. It is the eternal struggle between these two principles -- right and wrong -- throughout the world. They are the two principles that have stood face to face from the beginning of time, and will ever continue to struggle. The one is the common right of humanity and the other the divine right of kings." -Lincoln
Some people are passionately drawn to a hierarchical society, even if their rank in it (outside the inevitable "untouchable" class) is fairy low. Others passionately strive for egalitarianism. Both groups seem to find the other repellent, but it's not a matter of "both sides" when it comes to human misery, Real liberal democracies are not trying to force the whole of humanity into Procrustean Beds, nor, to the degree to which they truly embrace universal rights, committing genocide.
I appreciate the reference to Procrustes! I have a feeling that under the American Right's 'illiberal ism' I would somehow have to undergo both stretching and amputation to fit into their bed. I'm watching Kevin McCarthy willingly undergo this process right now. Stupid, stupid, man.
Kevin McCarthy has given away his soul......it is hard to watch him...... to observe such an empty human being. I do not know how he functions at all.
The classic "deal with the Devil"; your soul in trade for wealth and other forms of power.
He certainly didn't mention women. Just. Men.
True, and that bespeaks a glaring injustice that was being ignored by the male writers of the time. I believe that long ago (well before the mid 19th Century) the primary use of the word "men" referred to all of humanity, although it was secondarily used for a male. Men and women were "wer" and "wif". That said, the notion of male superiority has been intense and widespread. Science and casually observable reality have given it the lie, but many still don't want to let it go.
In the early 1970’s I had some close business friends from Japan. Once after work when we were relaxing in the hotel bar I asked two of my Japanese friends to tell me the truth about their stand on women’s status. Without hesitation one said: “Men are without question superior to women”. I thanked him for his direct answer and sat there flabbergasted without letting on.
Not so long ago. Mid 90s it was still in the style guides.
I love Japanese culture and visited there twice. My daughter taught in rural Japan for a year. There are still glaring blind spots there around nationlaism, rank and gender.
In this household there’s a continuous two cents of ‘humor’ , which is enjoyed, often enlightening, intellectually stimulating, often ‘blasphemous’ by judgement...and my insignificant other retorted to my mentioning the same...Talia, ‘well, Eve did take that apple, right?’
But Adam ate the pie.
I never could figure out what was supposed to be bad about knowing the difference between good and evil. Yes, it demands accountability, but if you know what evil is (in my book, aggressive sociopathy) you have to the choice not to do it. The story struck me even in childhood as an allegory for growing up, but I have never understood what God was so steamed about.
I presumed it was for not doing what you were told, or thinking for yourself in anyway. In my family those things were greeted with disproportionate retribution.
To be clear-not just Christian --HIS VERSION of Christian which isn’t Christian AT ALL!
I get what you're saying; it is hard to take it when you identify as a "good" Christian and do not enjoin these "not" Christians. I understand it (but not from the religious side. My level of understanding on this comes from 30 years as a "good cop" and not having the ability to refute the "ACAB" crowd who so passionately believe that there really is no such thing as a "good cop" and have a whole lot of data on their side.
ACAB = All Cops Are Bad
When the ppl who exhibit ugly behavior steal the narrative and hijack the perception of something in which you believe or a group to which you belong, it’s truly painful.
Ally, I have a daughter in law enforcement. People like you and her make our community better. Thank you!
Thank your daughter!! It can be an honorable profession, when carried on by honorable people.
Yes, and once "transgenderism" is eradicated, we must turn our attention to an even greater scourge: left-handedism! Why, we even allow left-handed people to appear on TV. This makes children watching think that left-handedism is okay. They're being groomed by TV, movies, the internet! This has got to stop. We need to develop therapies to treat left-handedness, and convert left-handed people into decent right-handers, as God wants them to be. And for those who refuse this blessing -- the camps!
Lincoln's speech of July 10, 1858 (if anyone wants to look it up) is one of his best, which is saying a lot. And the section quoted is right to the point. Conservatives today, as in his time, are challenging the very foundation of this country, the self-evident truths in the Declaration.
The notion of eradicating transgenderism is just so totally crazed. Sounds a lot like eradicating Jews. How about we all suggest they embrace it, like many Native American and other cultures do and have for centuries with their "Two Spirit" people...??
Yes, and Lincoln's speech is a dandy.
Lincoln did take a wider view of things but he also adopted the views of his times. He lived with his hypocrisy…and died for his love of country.
In 1862 Lincoln invited a group of Black men to the White House and as part of the conversation he said that Black people could never ‘be placed on an equality with the white race’. (Quote from Stamped from the Beginning by Ibram X. Kendi)
Like many of his contemporaries Lincoln worked to find ways to eliminate Black people from being in America. He joined with the American Colonization Society to ship Black people away to some far off places. Most prominent politicians joined as well although hats off to the abolitionists who advocated for an end to slavery. (Some of them too wanted Blacks to be “free” but not equal)
During a debate in 1858 Lincoln said, “I am not nor have ever been, in favor of brining about in any way, the social and political equality of the black and white races”. He realized though that slavery was tearing the country apart so his decision to emancipate Black people was to preserve the union-not to make Black people equal. The “Supreme” Court has upheld inequality for centuries.
The way we slice and dice our population has to stop if we really believe in equality. Why do we have to put people in groups based on superficial human characteristics? I think it’s only to reinforce white supremacy and patriarchy. Religion is just a tool to accomplish the aims of sinister people who really don’t believe in equality.
Like so many or us Lincoln too has in time had a Change of Heart. These epiphanies come to so many that we must wonder how many folks were never taught to think critically.
Like with the scientific method, once you see new and better data you adjust your theory. But with the dogma of religion drilled into your growing brain, it’s a challenge to get out of that rut of a neuronal pathway.
I am a 60 year old lefty and when I was a kid, my grandmother constantly tried to get me to use my right hand-- she had some religious reason against being left handed! Some “Christians” truly can use their religion against anything.
I do love such a well-constructed metaphor. Thanks so much for this creative and vivid mental exercise.
https://www.justice.gov/hatecrimes/learn-about-hate-crimes
From the DOJ website:
"Hate
The term "hate" can be misleading. When used in a hate crime law, the word "hate" does not mean rage, anger, or general dislike. In this context “hate” means bias against people or groups with specific characteristics that are defined by the law.
At the federal level, hate crime laws include crimes committed on the basis of the victim’s perceived or actual race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, or disability.
Most state hate crime laws include crimes committed on the basis of race, color, and religion; many also include crimes committed on the basis of sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, and disability.
Crime
The "crime" in hate crime is often a violent crime, such as assault, murder, arson, vandalism, OR THREATS TO COMMIT SUCH CRIMES (my emphasis). It may also cover conspiring or asking another person to commit such crimes, even if the crime was never carried out."
It seems that the DOJ needs to start prosecuting cases where saying that "transgenderism has to be eradicated" is recognized for what it truly is--a call to violence against transgendered citizens. The fine line these right wing hate mongers walk is only fine if prosecutors refuse to prosecute and juries refuse to convict and SCOTUS refuses to uphold the convictions.
I think it is time that these examples are called out and prosecuted. The last time there was talk of "eradication" was during the Rwandan genocide and there were successful prosecutions. Yes it took years and untold numbers of people were murdered but a hate crime against one is still a hate crime. If we are going to turn back this assault on the basic premise of equality that is the only way it can be done. The line has to get wide and bright and there have to be consequences.
Amen, sir👍
Thanks for this post, not just because I agree with you about including transgenderism a legally protected class under "sex," but also because it clarified for me something that has bugged me about "hate" crimes.
The fact that the DOJ has to define "hate" as having nothing to do with the emotions involved means that they should have chosen another name. Instead, I wish they'd chosen something like Anti-Criminal Discrimination Law, mirroring anti-discrimination laws in housing and employment.
It makes sense, too -- if criminal defendants have a right to be treated equally without regard to race, religion, national origin, sex, ethnicity, and disability, why shouldn't the victims also have that right? (Of course, that might mean that rape, by this definition, could be a "hate" crime, something that actually appeals to me.)
Having investigated (at the street level) crimes against persons that were based on the suspect's "perception" of their <pick your protected class here>. At the street level, where the cops are investigating assaults, criminal mischief, arson, harassment, sexual assaults, "hate" under the common definition is present as well.
Yes, Georgia, for so long we have relied on good conscience to settle in.
Déjà vu!
Martin Niemöller was a German Lutheran pastor and theologian born in Lippstadt, Germany, in 1892. Niemöller was an anti-Communist and supported Adolf Hitler's rise to power at first. But when Hitler insisted on the supremacy of the state over religion, Niemöller became disillusioned. He became the leader of a group of German clergymen opposed to Hitler. In 1937 he was arrested and eventually confined in Sachsenhausen and Dachau. He was released in 1945 by the Allies. He continued his career in Germany as a clergyman and as a leading voice of penance and reconciliation for the German people after World War II.
Niemöller made confession in his speech for the Confessing Church in Frankfurt on 6 January 1946, of which this is a partial translation:
"... the people who were put in the camps then were Communists. Who cared about them? We knew it, it was printed in the newspapers. Who raised their voice, maybe the Confessing Church? We thought: Communists, those opponents of religion, those enemies of Christians—"should I be my brother's keeper?"
"Then they got rid of the sick, the so-called incurables. I remember a conversation I had with a person who claimed to be a Christian. He said: Perhaps it's right, these incurably sick people just cost the state money, they are just a burden to themselves and to others. Isn't it best for all concerned if they are taken out of the middle [of society]? Only then did the church as such take note.
Then we started talking, until our voices were again silenced in public. Can we say, we aren't guilty/responsible?
The persecution of the Jews, the way we treated the occupied countries, or the things in Greece, in Poland, in Czechoslovakia or in Holland, that were written in the newspapers. … I believe, we Confessing-Church-Christians have every reason to say: mea culpa, mea culpa! We can talk ourselves out of it with the excuse that it would have cost me my head if I had spoken out.
We preferred to keep silent. We are certainly not without guilt/fault, and I ask myself again and again, what would have happened, if in the year 1933 or 1934—there must have been a possibility—14,000 Protestant pastors and all Protestant communities in Germany had defended the truth until their deaths? If we had said back then, it is not right when Hermann Göring simply puts 100,000 Communists in the concentration camps, in order to let them die. I can imagine that perhaps 30,000 to 40,000 Protestant Christians would have had their heads cut off, but I can also imagine that we would have rescued 30–40,000 million [sic] people, because that is what it is costing us now."
What a profound and poignant view. These are the questions we should all be asking ourselves.
It seems that, far too often, after someone has achieved financial riches, their focus changes to keeping/increasing their riches/power by fair means or foul. A financial caste system exists and has existed for many decades.
Looking at Congress Critters, far too many of them were raised in upper class households.and were financially able to afford to work for free as congressional interns. They believe that they are there solely through their own efforts and are tasked to preserve the conditions of their childhoods. These conditions are deemed “the good old days” and are not to be fooled with, even when poor children are put to work in jobs that result in chemical burns. Many of these children are from immigrant families afraid to report the conditions.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/03/08/politics/sarah-huckabee-sanders-arkansas-child-labor/index.html
Mary, this is so true. “Many of these children are from immigrant families afraid to report the conditions.” Our government started searching for and rounding up immigrants, and knew just where to find them. Many are working in essential jobs with no protection at all. America can’t decide which political direction to move. These companies want cheap labor and know who to hire. Where does it stop?
Companies have always been going for the cheap labor. There's a recent book: Back of the HIring Line: A 200-Year History of Immigration Surges, Employer Bias, and Depression of Black Wealth, by Roy Beck, $13 on Amazon.
In 1980, meat packers were mostly Black workers, making good middle class wages, having spent decades organizing. By that decade's end, meat packers were mostly immigrants, toiling under atrocious conditions for barely above minimum wage.
The book gives the lie to the notion that there are jobs Americans won't do. Beck interviewed out of work poultry plant workers on the eastern shore, asking them if they'd take their old job s back if they could get them. No, they told him. The wages would force them to live in their cars, or many to a room.
The problem has spread to white workers since then. And it's going ot get worse, if anyhting. The Census Bureau projects that the US will grow by 75 million over the next four decades, a rate of growth that's almost equivalent to adding one NY State population every decade. And 90% of that growth will be from immigration.
Yes, David, thank you for highlighting the history of this scandalous corporate, economic, social justice and political problem. Crisis. And not new. Is it also an American problem? At least now. Sending jobs and industries overseas to save money? To start. But here in this democratic country, hiring immigrants knowing they are unprotected. And undocumented. So no benefits and low wages. And sometimes raiding factories to find illegal immigrants and send them immediately and literally “packing” out of their homes and country. Undercover journalist Barbara Ehrenreich investigated and exposed the corruption and greed in the American work world. “Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America.” And then there’s even earlier: Upton Sinclair’s “The Jungle.” 1906, the expose about the health violations and unsanitary conditions of the American meat packing industry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle.
And books on child labor laws and the Industrial Revolution.
But what corporations read these books or care about history if they can get away with their unethical and immoral practices?
This is definitely an American problem.
You are conflating a bunch of other issues with the issue of replacing American workers with cheap immigrant labor, although there is a lot of overlap. And for companies, while the end result may be the same, this is opposite of sending jobs and industries overseas. (This is outsourcing by importing the cheap labor.)
There are companies that import people to the US for cheap labor--a couple of Indian companies for example. Many US business leaders encourage this sort of thing--Zuckerberg, the Koch Industries for example. Tom Tancredo (R-CO), in the '90s and '00s the leading exponent on Capitol Hill for reducing immigration, told me a couple of fast food execs spent an hour trying to buy him off of the issue, telling him they'd keep his campaign coffers full if he'd drop it (he wasn't for sale). During the Bush II administration, Karl Rove told Tancredo "never to darken the White House door again".
Even in the 1800s, companies would send boats to Europe to bring back white workers that they could use to replace their black workers.
Companies are more likely to exploit illegal immigrants, as they are easier to exploit than legal immigrants, but both get exploited.
"Raiding" factories for illegal immigrants is separate, and it often results in American workers getting the newly open jobs. But the easy way to stop the illegal immigration would be to pass a national, mandatory E-Verify. That would stop the flood of immigrants coming across the borders. Democrats don't want to do that because they think--probably wrongly--that such immigrants, once made citizens, will vote Democratic. (From 2016-2020, the numbers of naturalized immigrants voting for Republicans increased, and I think it increased again in 2022.)
Many big biz GOPers don't want E-Verify because they like the cheap labor. Nonetheless, a bill that would have made E-Verify nationally mandatory came within ~25 votes of passing the House in 2017, because a majority of Republicans and some Democrats voted for it. But Paul Ryan, then House Speaker, and Trump did not push for it. Had they done so, it almost certainly would have passed the house.
David, thank you for your detailed reply. This topic is complicated. I am adding other concerns to the conversation but not conflating. There are many policies and movements that are related and I think they need to be recognized. This is an American problem, but so is replacing American workers with undocumented workers who have no protection. Or as Barbara Ehrenreich wrote about low wages and no benefits. Not able to live on full time jobs. This discussion is a book, not a paragraph. And the comments are conversations.
Excellent analysis of how 🤔 the radicals are trying to force their interpretation of what's right or wrong on all of America 🇺🇸 whether that's what the majority of people want or not; definitely not!!
Excellent historical quotes from ol Abe Lincoln himself, the 1st GOP President who set what is supposed to be the standard for true Patriots of the Grand Ol Party maintaining the integrity of the United States of America 🇺🇸, not engaging in the seditious activities displayed by today's splinter group of radical insurrectionists.
Lincoln would of been the 1st one to stop their shenanigans, which are poisoning American society, so that this government of the people and for the people shall not perish from this Earth 🤔
I do think Lincoln would have been more adroit in handling them, that's for sure.
And just out of curiosity, is that your real email address you're using for your screen name, DanQuick65, or did you create a new account just to see what kind of crazy crap get emailed to an address publicly posted on a site with international viewership?
You never know, the likes of Putin, Fox Noise, and Elmo Musk may have driven him deeper into despair. I say we’re very fortunate he was there when we needed him and perhaps history will say the same for Joe Biden