Totes, Rowshan. And the fact is that the Catholic bishops going apes*t right now about the possibility that ERA could actually be ratified should be a red flag.
Totes, Rowshan. And the fact is that the Catholic bishops going apes*t right now about the possibility that ERA could actually be ratified should be a red flag.
Dave There is only a vague random correlation between the teachings of Jesus Christ and the actions and beliefs of many bishops. The Gospels seldom relate to the dictums of the Vatican.
I taught the New Testament for nearly two decades. I suggest that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church read it and follow its guidelines.
Keith and Dave, in my abbreviated experience with the Catholic church, I never heard any mention of the Bible. Their focus is on producing as many infants as possible, to grow up and fill their coffers. After all, someone has to pay for their infrastructure.
In the 21st century we are still held hostage by a bunch of guys in dresses, who sell the idea that instead of thinking for themselves people ought to follow the "teachings" of a magical sky parent. (I don't care if they do wear dresses, but their opposition to women being given first class citizen status, while cross dressing is telling).
J. Nol, it's not difficult to see that they closely resemble the MAGA crowd. They are fed by their desire to subjugate and have total control, and have little regard for anyone else's welfare or whether they are responsible for collateral damage.
One need only read the history of the Catholic Church to plainly that the welfare of others and any regard for collateral damages is not a part of their faith tradition.
And I say that knowing Catholic Charities does some wonderful things--they do so despite the interference of the Vatican.
The teachings are real, whatever flavor you take, and they all boil down to 1) Love and respect God and 2) Love and respect your neighbor as you do yourself. No money in that though and people who confuse the various churches and their mundane teachings with the Word of God are the victims of their own failure to learn.
I don't take any of these "flavors". Telling people how to live their lives suggests that some of us have the answers, and others don't or can't find those answers for themselves. I'm all for listening to what people who are wiser than I, say about things, but ultimately, it's up to each of us to figure out this thing called life. I certainly don't find it useful to take seriously other people's superstitions. And I resent superstitions being used to justify all sorts of behaviors and policies.
J As I became considerably older, I find that often people with questions about their lives often benefit most by having a good listener. And while listening, they can say ‘uh uh,’ ‘that’s interesting,’ and ‘could you elaborate.
Once you became a passive listener, the other person becomes increasingly comfortable in discussing her/his situation. Instead of endeavoring to provide ‘answers,’ asking questions may be what the individual most needs.
And who has the ‘answers?’ If we can help a person probe more into themselves, this might lead to the ‘least worst alternative.’
My wife and I practiced this with our daughter this afternoon as she is considering major surgery. We felt it important tab at she decide what was best with her body (she’s 51). We feel that she is on track towards a resolution that suits her.
Sounds like a good strategy and one that ensures she knows she has your support. God be with her in making the decision and with all of you for a positive outcome.
Except for those of us who aren't believers. It is a puzzle that people "believe" in this god who is all powerful but stands by while the suffering continues worldwide- suffering that he/she could have prevented. Either that god is omnipotent but callous because he/she/it creates all the suffering and doesn't intervene to stop it or isn't omnipotent but claims he/she/it is, so is lying. And, if that god is also omniscient, then all that suffering could also have been prevented ahead of time by just changing the course of how things unfold. If that god is omniscient, then everything has already been determined, so there is no free will, which means that the idea that all of this is "given" to us to challenge us, is moot, since it's already written what will happen. It's truly a puzzle.
As a psychotherapist, I understood that this is a major skill to have, to be helpful to others. We can't "fix" others with our advice, but we certainly can join people in their journeys, making sure to not be another obstacle for them, but instead a support.
Quite right about the ultimate responsibility and each of us meets that in our own way. If someone relies on what you refer to as superstition to support their path, that's their choice; my objection is when anyone tries to use their beliefs to direct my life's path and it sounds like that's the same concern you have.
Yes. I don't care what others believe. I do care that they justify hurtful policies that affect all of us with those beliefs. But, I don't know how to separate the two. Most believers, think that what they believe is actually true, and apparently don't need evidence to support those beliefs. And, if they are in a position to shape policy many seem convinced that it's legitimate to use those beliefs to limit other people's civil rights.
J I have a grandson who has been sucked into an evangelical movement (god spoke to him). Initially, his mother, me, and others were going to the devil because we didn’t ‘believe. This has eased off somewhat, though probably I can go to the devil on my own—I gather that there are some stimulating poker games in hell.
Those are the "true believers" that Eric Hoffer first wrote about in 1951 and they are the scary point of the spear in any doctrinaire and dogmatic movement because they cannot be persuaded to examine their motivating beliefs. The 1st Amendment prohibition of the "establishment of any religion" was intended to prevent a Church of England situation from arising in this country and those who would use the power of government to force people into behaving as though they accept a particular belief system have been trying to work around it ever since. Any freedom including that of religious practice is necessarily limited by the possession of that freedom on the part of everyone else and by the responsibility to accept the impact of one's actions.
DAVE ! ABSOLUTLY ! Many, in Mankind, are Lost, in the
" many Church Doctrines that steer you Off, THE TRUTH! in WORD! it is WRITTEN ...JESUS said ; I AM the TRUTH! , and the LIFE ! None come unto the FATHER, But BY ME!
ANKIND NEEDS to be Carefull, with WHAT is SAID!! GOD ! and HIS SON! , are NOT MOCKED! ( life on this Earth, is But a "Puff of SMOKE!" Then Your Soul Returns To the FATHER! Is HIS SON? your SAVIOUR? PRAYERS! for YOU! that , HE IS !!
Not just the infrastructure and huge property holdings in highly valuable areas of major cities around the world, the Archdiocese of Boston, a few years ago, contributed $750,000 to an anti-legalization campaign in MA that passed overwhelmingly. If they've got that kind of money to blow, mitigating poverty should be a piece of cake.
Dave When faced with massive law suits, the Catholic Church, in addition to threatening victims with the loss of their souls, pursued a deliberate policy of splitting off parishes to reduce the assets vulnerable to legal action. How this relates to ‘saving souls’ puzzles me.
Apparently those who followed in the shoes of the fisherman were interested in a little better quality footwear than the sandals Peter wore. Also didn't seem to like the idea of poverty and working for one's daily bread.
if you walk in Rome, eventually you will come across the area devoted to clerical robes. The shop windows a full of very beautiful and very elaborate and very expensive vestments for the clergy of the RC church. makes a statement when they cannot afford to pay settlements to those they have harmed, such as abused children or residential school survivors.
The problem is that only one of those is Scripture and not even all of the Douay-Rheims Bible was inspired. Most of it is historical accounts, just like all the others.
The "creation stories" of almost all of the world's faith traditions' sacred texts are, all by themselves, articles of faith that the "stories" told are even historical accounts. And all claim to have been "divinely inspired" in one form or another.
Citizen Joseph Campbell, in his extraordinary THE POWER OF MYTH series with Bill Moyers, relates creation stories to worldwide myths.
Moyers, a Baptist minister, looked like he was sucking on a lemon, when Campbell described the resurrection of Jesus as an allegory present in many mythical stories.
Campbell acknowledges that religion is a matter of faith that is unrelated to facts. He discusses ‘divinity’ in its diverse dimensions.
As a kid I grew up with ‘Jesus loves me, that I know, because the Bible told me so.’ Later in my life I was puzzled by Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Does the ‘Holy Ghost’ love me?
The American Catholic bishops are anti-American. Before every election I get a communication telling me how to vote and asking for money. Not knowing how the Catholic bishops got my name and address and with the Declaration of Independence in mind, every year I write in the blanks that America has separation of Church and State. Then I stamp and mail it to PA, which is where it comes from. Republicans and Radicals of all “religious” stripes need to be reminded that the Founding Fathers would be unsurprised, but not pleased, by their behavior. It’s anti-American.
Ten years ago, Kevin Cullen of the Boston Globe wrote a column re: Cardinal O'Malley and his hypocrisy in boycotting a Boston College ceremony at which Ireland's prime minister was to receive an honorary degree and give the commencement speech (the prime minister had filed legislation allowing abortion to save the life of the mother). From his note responding to my thanking him for it:
"I'm done with them.
I will spiritually and financially support good priests and nuns.
But I'm done with the institutional church.
The Cardinal did me a favor by making me finally make a stand.
Feck them.
Judgmental, smug, arrogant, self righteous.
I'm done with them."
He closed with his father's deathbed quote, in which he referred to bishops as "a shower of arseholes".
James, as of the '60s, when I was still taking Catechism classes--and I have no reason to think things have changed--the church still maintained a platonic vision of creation as a hierarchical structure. If memory serves, we had the triune God at the top, followed successively by the Blessed Virgin, saints and angels in their stratified ranks, the Pope, cardinals and bishops, priests, (maybe civil authorities in there somewhere under priests?) parents, and last and least, children. That last place for children was emphasized with the assertion that we, as children, had no right to question the higher levels of authority above us. I don't recall any discussion of unborn babies' place in all of this, perhaps because the obvious implication of sex was to be avoided. Or perhaps my memory is faulty. In any case, according to this paradigm, unborn babies should be at the bottom, but somehow they've been elevated to somewhere above parents. Call me cynical, but it seemed to me when I first noticed this that this elevation approximately arose in the wake of the pedophilia scandal. Again, memory is faulty, so there's always that.
I follow a person on Facebook who has reported religious men who have been arrested for sexual crimes against children every day since December 2022 ....every single day ! How disgusting is that ! Yet repugnants states are banning drag shows as they are the groomers !! Where does it end ??
Don't forget how the same Bishops rode Obama into the ground for the ACA, because of its inclusions of women's health. Let's expose these smug old guys with antedeluvian biases in their cassocks!
My cousins that are Catholic quit going to mass when the priest began talking about supporting "tfg". That happened in our other area Christian churches too!
Unfortunately, 80% of white evangelicals voted for Trump. Both times. If the percentage decent human beings among white evangelicals were as high as it is among Catholics (excluding American bishops of course, below which it’s hard to go), Trump would have been defeated.
Republicans supported by the religious right clearly don’t believe in the separation of Church and State. The US Supreme Court seems to be following suit by requiring public funds to be used for one parochial school in New England as well as allowing businesses and individuals to discriminate on the basis of religion. Look next for the religious right, followed by the US Supreme Court, to determine that there is no such prohibition as the separation of church and state since it is based on the first clause in the bill of rights, i.e the First Amendment, which states, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” Such a narrow interpretation flies in the face of its intent and historical understanding.,
What is the word for turning a phrase so that it's new meaning is the opposite of the original? Parsing is the one that comes to mind, but there are others.
The Catholic church, as well as all of the money-grubbing Evangelicals, should have had their tax-exempt status rescinded years ago. If that happened, we wouldn't be in this mess!
Our moral compass is spinning as it searches for a North Star. We have truly entered the world of upside down when the word of Jesus Christ does not equate with social justice and “Fuck You” is considered acceptable speech in the halls of Congress.
Your comment gave me a thought: why do we have a chaplains in the House and Senate? Seems to me there should be no connecton to any religion in the halls of Congress. If separation of church and state is not complete, then there should be rabbis, imams, et alii to guarantee equal representation.
Does this mean the catholic church does not want women to be equal to men ?? Same bullshit! Same bigotry still ! There should be separation between church and state for obvious reasons!! I'm sure these catholic and Christian national people wouldn't mind paying the taxes on their churches!
Perhaps churches should have their “non profit” status revoked. You shouldn’t be allowed to have it both ways. That is, the church is taking a political stand against women, and they are seeking to influence our government to deny equal rights to women. All the while, sitting on vast wealth that could support their congregation and then lobbying people in congress.
Totes, Rowshan. And the fact is that the Catholic bishops going apes*t right now about the possibility that ERA could actually be ratified should be a red flag.
Not just a red flag, but also a disgrace to all of the Catholics who truly care about other people—all other people.
In other words, all Catholics who actually try to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Makes one wonder what Bible the bishops are reading.
Dave There is only a vague random correlation between the teachings of Jesus Christ and the actions and beliefs of many bishops. The Gospels seldom relate to the dictums of the Vatican.
I taught the New Testament for nearly two decades. I suggest that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church read it and follow its guidelines.
Keith and Dave, in my abbreviated experience with the Catholic church, I never heard any mention of the Bible. Their focus is on producing as many infants as possible, to grow up and fill their coffers. After all, someone has to pay for their infrastructure.
In the 21st century we are still held hostage by a bunch of guys in dresses, who sell the idea that instead of thinking for themselves people ought to follow the "teachings" of a magical sky parent. (I don't care if they do wear dresses, but their opposition to women being given first class citizen status, while cross dressing is telling).
J. Nol, it's not difficult to see that they closely resemble the MAGA crowd. They are fed by their desire to subjugate and have total control, and have little regard for anyone else's welfare or whether they are responsible for collateral damage.
One need only read the history of the Catholic Church to plainly that the welfare of others and any regard for collateral damages is not a part of their faith tradition.
And I say that knowing Catholic Charities does some wonderful things--they do so despite the interference of the Vatican.
While also convincing those they subjugate to pay them for this privilege!
The teachings are real, whatever flavor you take, and they all boil down to 1) Love and respect God and 2) Love and respect your neighbor as you do yourself. No money in that though and people who confuse the various churches and their mundane teachings with the Word of God are the victims of their own failure to learn.
I don't take any of these "flavors". Telling people how to live their lives suggests that some of us have the answers, and others don't or can't find those answers for themselves. I'm all for listening to what people who are wiser than I, say about things, but ultimately, it's up to each of us to figure out this thing called life. I certainly don't find it useful to take seriously other people's superstitions. And I resent superstitions being used to justify all sorts of behaviors and policies.
J As I became considerably older, I find that often people with questions about their lives often benefit most by having a good listener. And while listening, they can say ‘uh uh,’ ‘that’s interesting,’ and ‘could you elaborate.
Once you became a passive listener, the other person becomes increasingly comfortable in discussing her/his situation. Instead of endeavoring to provide ‘answers,’ asking questions may be what the individual most needs.
And who has the ‘answers?’ If we can help a person probe more into themselves, this might lead to the ‘least worst alternative.’
My wife and I practiced this with our daughter this afternoon as she is considering major surgery. We felt it important tab at she decide what was best with her body (she’s 51). We feel that she is on track towards a resolution that suits her.
Sounds like a good strategy and one that ensures she knows she has your support. God be with her in making the decision and with all of you for a positive outcome.
Except for those of us who aren't believers. It is a puzzle that people "believe" in this god who is all powerful but stands by while the suffering continues worldwide- suffering that he/she could have prevented. Either that god is omnipotent but callous because he/she/it creates all the suffering and doesn't intervene to stop it or isn't omnipotent but claims he/she/it is, so is lying. And, if that god is also omniscient, then all that suffering could also have been prevented ahead of time by just changing the course of how things unfold. If that god is omniscient, then everything has already been determined, so there is no free will, which means that the idea that all of this is "given" to us to challenge us, is moot, since it's already written what will happen. It's truly a puzzle.
As a psychotherapist, I understood that this is a major skill to have, to be helpful to others. We can't "fix" others with our advice, but we certainly can join people in their journeys, making sure to not be another obstacle for them, but instead a support.
Quite right about the ultimate responsibility and each of us meets that in our own way. If someone relies on what you refer to as superstition to support their path, that's their choice; my objection is when anyone tries to use their beliefs to direct my life's path and it sounds like that's the same concern you have.
Yes. I don't care what others believe. I do care that they justify hurtful policies that affect all of us with those beliefs. But, I don't know how to separate the two. Most believers, think that what they believe is actually true, and apparently don't need evidence to support those beliefs. And, if they are in a position to shape policy many seem convinced that it's legitimate to use those beliefs to limit other people's civil rights.
J I have a grandson who has been sucked into an evangelical movement (god spoke to him). Initially, his mother, me, and others were going to the devil because we didn’t ‘believe. This has eased off somewhat, though probably I can go to the devil on my own—I gather that there are some stimulating poker games in hell.
Those are the "true believers" that Eric Hoffer first wrote about in 1951 and they are the scary point of the spear in any doctrinaire and dogmatic movement because they cannot be persuaded to examine their motivating beliefs. The 1st Amendment prohibition of the "establishment of any religion" was intended to prevent a Church of England situation from arising in this country and those who would use the power of government to force people into behaving as though they accept a particular belief system have been trying to work around it ever since. Any freedom including that of religious practice is necessarily limited by the possession of that freedom on the part of everyone else and by the responsibility to accept the impact of one's actions.
Dave You are speaking the words of Jesus. What is the relevance to the Catholic Church?
Temporal or eternal relevance?
DAVE ! ABSOLUTLY ! Many, in Mankind, are Lost, in the
" many Church Doctrines that steer you Off, THE TRUTH! in WORD! it is WRITTEN ...JESUS said ; I AM the TRUTH! , and the LIFE ! None come unto the FATHER, But BY ME!
ANKIND NEEDS to be Carefull, with WHAT is SAID!! GOD ! and HIS SON! , are NOT MOCKED! ( life on this Earth, is But a "Puff of SMOKE!" Then Your Soul Returns To the FATHER! Is HIS SON? your SAVIOUR? PRAYERS! for YOU! that , HE IS !!
Not just the infrastructure and huge property holdings in highly valuable areas of major cities around the world, the Archdiocese of Boston, a few years ago, contributed $750,000 to an anti-legalization campaign in MA that passed overwhelmingly. If they've got that kind of money to blow, mitigating poverty should be a piece of cake.
Dave When faced with massive law suits, the Catholic Church, in addition to threatening victims with the loss of their souls, pursued a deliberate policy of splitting off parishes to reduce the assets vulnerable to legal action. How this relates to ‘saving souls’ puzzles me.
Apparently those who followed in the shoes of the fisherman were interested in a little better quality footwear than the sandals Peter wore. Also didn't seem to like the idea of poverty and working for one's daily bread.
Dave Jesus’s fishermen may have been barefoot, but I imagine that Gucci has a boutique within the Vatican.
if you walk in Rome, eventually you will come across the area devoted to clerical robes. The shop windows a full of very beautiful and very elaborate and very expensive vestments for the clergy of the RC church. makes a statement when they cannot afford to pay settlements to those they have harmed, such as abused children or residential school survivors.
Wow, I had no idea. I'd always thought the garments were made by tailors in the Vatican. I'll bet most Catholics have no clue this is the case.
Or at least an on-site sales rep. LMAO, thanks Keith.
WOW!!!
Completely correct Keith. That's one of the reasons I used to be a Catholic Christian. The operative term, of course, is "used to be."
They'e reading the version of the Bible they wrote for Catholics, and the Baltimore Catechism.
How do you think they're able to reconcile acting so antithetical to the words of the historical Jesus?
The problem is that only one of those is Scripture and not even all of the Douay-Rheims Bible was inspired. Most of it is historical accounts, just like all the others.
The "creation stories" of almost all of the world's faith traditions' sacred texts are, all by themselves, articles of faith that the "stories" told are even historical accounts. And all claim to have been "divinely inspired" in one form or another.
Citizen Joseph Campbell, in his extraordinary THE POWER OF MYTH series with Bill Moyers, relates creation stories to worldwide myths.
Moyers, a Baptist minister, looked like he was sucking on a lemon, when Campbell described the resurrection of Jesus as an allegory present in many mythical stories.
Campbell acknowledges that religion is a matter of faith that is unrelated to facts. He discusses ‘divinity’ in its diverse dimensions.
As a kid I grew up with ‘Jesus loves me, that I know, because the Bible told me so.’ Later in my life I was puzzled by Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Does the ‘Holy Ghost’ love me?
Of course they do, what better backup can one have than to say God told me?
Amen🌿
The American Catholic bishops are anti-American. Before every election I get a communication telling me how to vote and asking for money. Not knowing how the Catholic bishops got my name and address and with the Declaration of Independence in mind, every year I write in the blanks that America has separation of Church and State. Then I stamp and mail it to PA, which is where it comes from. Republicans and Radicals of all “religious” stripes need to be reminded that the Founding Fathers would be unsurprised, but not pleased, by their behavior. It’s anti-American.
Ten years ago, Kevin Cullen of the Boston Globe wrote a column re: Cardinal O'Malley and his hypocrisy in boycotting a Boston College ceremony at which Ireland's prime minister was to receive an honorary degree and give the commencement speech (the prime minister had filed legislation allowing abortion to save the life of the mother). From his note responding to my thanking him for it:
"I'm done with them.
I will spiritually and financially support good priests and nuns.
But I'm done with the institutional church.
The Cardinal did me a favor by making me finally make a stand.
Feck them.
Judgmental, smug, arrogant, self righteous.
I'm done with them."
He closed with his father's deathbed quote, in which he referred to bishops as "a shower of arseholes".
I've never seen a more eloquent description.
James, as of the '60s, when I was still taking Catechism classes--and I have no reason to think things have changed--the church still maintained a platonic vision of creation as a hierarchical structure. If memory serves, we had the triune God at the top, followed successively by the Blessed Virgin, saints and angels in their stratified ranks, the Pope, cardinals and bishops, priests, (maybe civil authorities in there somewhere under priests?) parents, and last and least, children. That last place for children was emphasized with the assertion that we, as children, had no right to question the higher levels of authority above us. I don't recall any discussion of unborn babies' place in all of this, perhaps because the obvious implication of sex was to be avoided. Or perhaps my memory is faulty. In any case, according to this paradigm, unborn babies should be at the bottom, but somehow they've been elevated to somewhere above parents. Call me cynical, but it seemed to me when I first noticed this that this elevation approximately arose in the wake of the pedophilia scandal. Again, memory is faulty, so there's always that.
I follow a person on Facebook who has reported religious men who have been arrested for sexual crimes against children every day since December 2022 ....every single day ! How disgusting is that ! Yet repugnants states are banning drag shows as they are the groomers !! Where does it end ??
I remember back in the old days, shilling for political issues or candidates would cost a church its tax exemption. Not anymore.
That is a shame and should still be happening!
Do you know WHY that stopped?
Don't forget how the same Bishops rode Obama into the ground for the ACA, because of its inclusions of women's health. Let's expose these smug old guys with antedeluvian biases in their cassocks!
My cousins that are Catholic quit going to mass when the priest began talking about supporting "tfg". That happened in our other area Christian churches too!
Unfortunately, 80% of white evangelicals voted for Trump. Both times. If the percentage decent human beings among white evangelicals were as high as it is among Catholics (excluding American bishops of course, below which it’s hard to go), Trump would have been defeated.
Republicans supported by the religious right clearly don’t believe in the separation of Church and State. The US Supreme Court seems to be following suit by requiring public funds to be used for one parochial school in New England as well as allowing businesses and individuals to discriminate on the basis of religion. Look next for the religious right, followed by the US Supreme Court, to determine that there is no such prohibition as the separation of church and state since it is based on the first clause in the bill of rights, i.e the First Amendment, which states, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” Such a narrow interpretation flies in the face of its intent and historical understanding.,
What is the word for turning a phrase so that it's new meaning is the opposite of the original? Parsing is the one that comes to mind, but there are others.
The Catholic church, as well as all of the money-grubbing Evangelicals, should have had their tax-exempt status rescinded years ago. If that happened, we wouldn't be in this mess!
Our moral compass is spinning as it searches for a North Star. We have truly entered the world of upside down when the word of Jesus Christ does not equate with social justice and “Fuck You” is considered acceptable speech in the halls of Congress.
What has Jesus Christ to do with conduct when in Congress? And are nonbelievers unacceptable there? What are you saying?
Your comment gave me a thought: why do we have a chaplains in the House and Senate? Seems to me there should be no connecton to any religion in the halls of Congress. If separation of church and state is not complete, then there should be rabbis, imams, et alii to guarantee equal representation.
MANKIND has reached the Point OF Being "Under The BARREL !!
Does this mean the catholic church does not want women to be equal to men ?? Same bullshit! Same bigotry still ! There should be separation between church and state for obvious reasons!! I'm sure these catholic and Christian national people wouldn't mind paying the taxes on their churches!
Of course the catholic church doesn't want women to be equal-as exemplified by their absolute REFUSAL to allow women priests.
The bishops' reactions to the ERA belies their political agenda...
They obviously missed their calling...
Perhaps churches should have their “non profit” status revoked. You shouldn’t be allowed to have it both ways. That is, the church is taking a political stand against women, and they are seeking to influence our government to deny equal rights to women. All the while, sitting on vast wealth that could support their congregation and then lobbying people in congress.
Linda The image of the castle of pedophiles (Vatican) being concerned about women rights in ERA leaves me gobsmacked.
The catholic bishops? WTF?