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Georgia Fisanick's avatar

During this week we will see the MAGA crazies take the biggest bite of all--they will gut the Biden presidency by forcing a default.

The 14th Amendment protects the "validity" of the debt--The government cannot unilaterally change the terms of the bonds it sells to investors after the fact. But that does not mean it prevents default. Just like your mortgage can be valid but if you miss payments you still owe them and the agreement you made is still valid but you are in default of the terms.

Congress is given the power in the Constitution to authorize the payment of debt. That has always been recognized, and the "Debt Ceiling" bill was written to make it easier for Congress to authorize the payment of debt with an omnibus bill that does not require it to act each time new debt needs to be issued.

I think that is how SCOTUS will rule--Biden does not have a magic trump card in his hand to play to make this all go away. The only hand he has to play is to show the Republicans' hypocrisy for what it is. And I think it is more likely than not that he will not succeed.

I am more pessimistic than I have even been on the fate of America. We are at the tipping point and Trump and his cronies are absolutely willing to push us over with a little help from Orban and Putin.

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LeMoine Surlamont's avatar

Georgia, it is not the "validity" of the debt that is in question here. There is no question that the debt was incurred in excess of the (then existing) debt ceiling limit, quite consciously by both congress and POTUS. Biden should pull the trigger on payment VIA the 14th in parallel with minting the $ 1Tn coin and any other mechanism at his disposal considering the ramifications of default. If SCOTUS should again ignore precedent in a potential suit, good, that would just be further evidence of their extreme politicization and one more nail in the coffin of the Roberts court. This hand wringing over avoiding every possible legal objection and fixation on making nice to these terrorists is a prime example of the dithering wimpiness of the Democratic Party that so completely turns off independent voters like myself. I voted for Obama twice. He rolled over for everything Mitch McConnell threw at him, including his nomination of Garland for SCOTUS. It made me absolutely sick. I believe it's exactly this behavior by the Democrats that allowed Trump to beat Hillary in 2016. I know that I voted for Jill Stein in protest because I couldn't stomach either Trump or Hillary and couldn't conceive of a moron like Trump possibly being elected. How many more independents like myself tipped the scales? The Democratic Party is absolutely killing itself with its lack of spine. Allowing these right wing idiots to drive us into default is absolutely insane. They need to be stopped through any means necessary, and I mean any means! And yes, we desperately need a viable third political party and a ranked choice voting system.

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MLRGRMI's avatar

Independent voters got exactly the America they voted for in 2016. Blaming Democrats for “not being enough.....(fill-in the blank)”, has been a weak position to argue from, when the stakes of the political contest where crystal clear in 2016. With Hillary, America would not have gotten perfection, but we were not expecting that. We were expecting a Supreme Court judge. We were expecting Roe V. Wade to stand. We were expecting a stand against clown-car-reality-tv-rule. But independent voters, exercising their political right, decided that they would allow the solid Dems to pull off Hillary’s win alone, without staining their own consciences, and giving themselves a “Free Pass” on complaining about her. As you said: “couldn’t conceive of a moron like trump being elected.” This is exactly how morons get elected. It was true in 2016. And it still is. Independents were played.

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LeMoine Surlamont's avatar

MLRGRMI, there's plenty not to like about the Democratic party on policy grounds alone. Bill Clinton's neoliberalism brought us NAFTA, which was a disaster. Obama would have slipped the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) to us if he'd have been able to get it through and Hillary certainly would have made it happen. TPP was a corporate give away and would have made NAFTA look tame by comparison. Both the Republican the Democratic parties have been feeding out of the same corporate trough for decades and stoking Ike's dreaded "Military Industrial Complex". I happen to think independent voters are more tuned in to policy issues than either of the mainstream parties whose inbred politicians are totally hooked on K Street campaign contributions. My vote for Stein was my statement in support of a third party as much as an expression of revulsion concerning Trump/Hillary. Identity politics is a very bad idea because it allows people to feel good about voting without doing much thinking. No offense intended.

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Ally House (Oregon)'s avatar

Well, you Independent voters who could not stomach a vote for Hilary Clinton have given us the Gilead SCROTUS. 2016 was not about the presidency, it was about the Supreme Court.

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MLRGRMI's avatar

No offense taken. Identity politics as a strategy is, and has been with us, for good or bad. It drives and manipulates ALL voters, gop, dem and independent. Just as you see left/right voters feeling good about voting without doing much thinking, I feel the same way about the independent voters trying to feel good about a bad choice in the strategy game. Independent voters thought Dems would do the work of stopping trump. All their supposed thinking amounted to the situation we are in. That is not to say that B. Clinton, nor Obama should be above political critique. Considering W. Bush and trump, I’ll take B. Clinton and Obama again. In my opinion, fortunately we have Biden. I agree with his adage: “Don’t compare to the Almighty. Compare to the alternative”. And understand the Electoral College reality.

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LeMoine Surlamont's avatar

Fair enough, MLRGRMI, except for two things. I can't speak for other independents, but it never occurred to me to "leave it to the Democrats". I actually didn't believe that there were enough Republicans stupid (or cynical) enough to elect this clown, Trump. I was wrong. And second, I don't "identify" as an "Independent". I think of myself as an independent voter precisely because I don't identify as either a Democrat or a Republican. Ciao.

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Paula Dufour's avatar

Are you foolish enough to believe Democratic and Republican voters are a monolith and stick together like a school of fish or lemmings choosing to walk over a cliff? The arrogance of Independent Voters really gets my goat. All voters make their final decisions at the poll on election day, not during the primary. Independents make the party affiliated choose the candidates along with the issues and then complain about their choices. Try being involved in choosing the policies and issues that matter and the candidates that support them when you have a choice. Sitting back and doing your Monday morning quarterbacking is offensive.

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mlbrowne's avatar

"All voters make their final decisions at the poll on election day, not during the primary."

That's a pretty broad brush you're trying to tar independent voters with, and the above statement about "all voters" just isn't true.

I'm proof that it's not. I make my decisions about who I will vote for well before the election day arrives. I learn as much as I can about the candidates, what they stand for, what they support, and any past actions they've made that might indicate what they're likely to do in the term of office. I'm doing what I believe is a sane, rational way to put people into elective offices who will promote the ideas and institutions that serve us all.

When I enter the polling place, I am armed with facts and data that support my decisions. I know not everyone casts votes using my way, but I also know I am not the only one who uses this way to cast their own votes.

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Paula Dufour's avatar

I replied in anger. I was replying in frustration. I prepare my decision for whom I vote in much the same way as you. Yes, extending my comment to "all" was immature and incorrect. I set the deadline for the final decision at poll day because until you cast your ballot you can change your mind. What if something was revealed that exposed the candidate was hiding something egregious? Look at what happened to Hillary. Folks showed in polling they supported her. Then the FBI reopened the email case I believe. Her numbers fell precipitously and she lost. Afterwards, she was not charged with any crime, civil or criminal. The person who swept up those voters is trying to destroy our democracy either through ignorance or malice or something in between. Look at what happened to Santos. Oh right, he wasn't exposed until after the election. Do you consider those voters to have failed in their diligence or in their inability to see through the lies much as those who chose Trump as the lesser of evils.

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LeMoine Surlamont's avatar

Gee Paula, In one short paragraph you’ve managed to call me foolish, arrogant, ignorant of the voting process, uninvolved and an offensive Monday morning quarterback. Nice job, and please remind me never to get on your bad side. It may or may not interest you to know that in my very red state you aren’t even ALLOWED to vote for primary candidates as a registered Independent. I handle it in my own way, which I won’t go into here because it would very likely get me shot if my neighbors got wind of it. But don’t you worry about all that; you’ve got me PEGGED!

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Paula Dufour's avatar

Sorry, this is a fight I have with my brother. He's an independent and he denigrates me for being a registered Democrat so that I can vote in the primary. I was a registered Republican before the Iraq war. That's when Bush burst my bubble and I learned to question agendas on both sides of the political spectrum. I decided I just don't belong in the Bootstrap Club. I've seen too much of life to believe that propaganda. Good luck with your guerilla warfare. I'd like the nation to move to ranked choice voting rather than primaries.

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Notes On Useful Beauty's avatar

Political critique is for old people in peaceful times reviewing other old people’s memoirs. Right now it is a distraction. Please critique the Trump administration and suggest additional steps the Biden administration can take to repair all the damage.

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Paula Dufour's avatar

I don't agree about the partisanship of NAFTA or TPP. These were both efforts by corporate America to send jobs overseas so they could reduce the cost of labor. The liberal part of this was the hope to bring all countries around the world to a better economic standing by sharing opportunities. Globalization is the issue and we haven't yet learned how to make it workable. The extension of supply chains, often unintentionally hidden, is one of those problems specifically the identification of critical supply chains. The issue we've not yet brought up is food. America now has access to fruits and vegetables out of season. The northern hemisphere is buying from the southern hemisphere. How do we avoid food insecurity in the southern hemisphere where leaders are more than willing to sell the lion's share to the northern hemisphere? Is there a reciprocal deal for the northern hemisphere to sell the lion's share to the southern hemisphere? How do we deal with water? Another critical question is, do we allow for migration during extended droughts or do we really start to do water management? In America, we have people moving to areas of the country where the water is critically short. Do we provide water for showers, flushing toilets, and such or do we prioritize food production? This is not an exaggeration. It has become worse because politicians have been in a "not my water" standoff for at least five and maybe ten years on the other side of the Mississippi River. This problem was predicted and reported to Congress well before 1900. The interest of those who want to make money always overrides the scientific evidence of the danger that the methods the money interests used will cause.

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Dirk Addertongue's avatar

I was recently driving across the American desert southwest and was astonished at how jarring it was to observe an irrigated desert. After traveling for miles over terrain that clearly wouldn't support anything larger than a small rodent, with plants widely separated because the water content doesn't allow any tighter grouping, I would suddenly enter lush fields of fruit trees, or vegetable crops, all supported by the chattering hoses of the irrigation system.

The air would instantly become softer from the water being sprayed around. Plants that only thrive in places with a hundred times more rainfall are thriving there, all through the use of irrigation. I dunno where that water comes from, but it isn't present on the surface, that's for sure. I know the word "unnatural" gets misused a lot, but there is something really creepy about having an artificial oasis in the middle of the desert that's growing a substantial portion of our food supply.

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Barbara Keating's avatar

Sadly it is the age old aquifers that are being depleted in an effort to green the desert and provide water to places that would otherwise be inhospitable to large populations. So too is climate change melting the glaciers that many countries use as a major source of water. We can live w/o gas/oil (a BIG adjustment), but we can’t live w/o potable water. We humans are depleting the earth’s resources and altering it to the detriment of all species we share this pale blue dot with.

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MLMinET's avatar

I agree with you but would add that Dems are also trying to govern at the same time. Republicans just want to burn down everything.

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LeMoine Surlamont's avatar

MLM: With regard to the present debt ceiling "crisis" I don't see the Biden Administration as actually governing. It looks more like posturing to me. If Biden were actually governing he would act now to end this idiocy. Robert Reich says it best in this excellent piece: https://robertreich.substack.com/p/the-case-for-why-biden-should-do?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

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MLMinET's avatar

When i say governing, I’m talking about all the aspects of being president that require his attention.

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George T's avatar

Then the Dems need to bring out the fire hose as one part of their governing (or their trying to govern). And turn that fire hose on full blast!

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Helen Stajninger's avatar

Then by voting for Jill Stein you helped give us Trump and this nightmare we are in

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Notes On Useful Beauty's avatar

If the 3 million people who voted for Jill Stein had voted for Hillary, Hillary would have been President and the country would have had problems, but the national debt would not have been increased by 25%, and we would not have unpunished traitors like Jim Jordan and Kevin McCarthy still drawing a salary in the House of Representatives. Look at your self in the mirror and consider what your mid-directed anger contributed to. Then go to school board meetings and stand up against the people seeking to destroy public education. Go to public protests and declare yourself against authoritarian harassment of minorities of all stripes. Call your Representative in Congress and remind him or her to always do the right thing-vote for bills that support democracy and don’t tolerate politicking that damages the country. Write and call every Representative in your State and remind them of the same thing. Also, send Hillary a letter apologizing for not voting for her. Also send Jill Stein a letter and ask her where the hell she is, and why isn’t she public all and loudly supporting Biden? Ugh. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Work with what we have now. Be mad at Republicans.

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Barbara Keating's avatar

Meredith, I learned my lesson about 3rd parties in 2000 when I voted for Nader instead of Gore. Won’t make that mistake again unless/until the country has ranked choice voting. I’ve even told this story as a cautionary tale to family/friends/neighbors during election times when they profess support of a 3rd party candidate (like Stein).

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JDinTX's avatar

I’m disgusted too, but third parties have. ALWAYS screwed the pooch, no more of that. Trash the repubs

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Julie Dahlman's avatar

IF ONLY, democratic party would of listened to Howard Dean and his 50 state strategy? If only, where would we be now. IF ONLY, dems would of not always capitulated to repugs over and over again. No matter I will vote blue.

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Julie Dahlman's avatar

Exactly!!!!

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WILLIAM CASH's avatar

We can buy back those bonds anytime we want to. We will not run out of money. Very few bond holders want to give them back because they are the saftest investment in the world. Very few people seem to have any understanding of macro economics. Read Stephanie Kelton's book The Deficit Myth. Read J.D. Alt's book Diagrams and Dollars. Get some background.

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James A's avatar

Why are you lying about the default? The Republican led house voted to raise the debt ceiling by 1.5T and limit spending to 2022 levels. Very modest.

If there is a default its on the Biden/Democrats.

Stop the propaganda

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Paula Dufour's avatar

If someone came to your house and said, "I'll give you relief on your credit card limit so that you can buy something you really need now as long as you are willing to not support your neighbor's food insecurity." Would you do it? What about if it was helping them with an illness, the deal is you don't give them the money to pay for the prescriptions they can't afford. Would you do it? Not only are those options heartless and cruel, but have you ever heard the phrase "Let them eat cake?" People will only take so much before they strike out at those who are truly responsible for the harm to their families. The bootstrap phrase is also quite stupid. You can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You can only put your boots on. What if pulling on your bootstraps just broke the soles out of your boots? The poor are not lazy, they are trapped and desperate because of circumstances they don't control. You don't like the homeless on the street? The solution is to recognize the problem. Either you business people aren't paying high enough wages to allow the poor to pay their rent, their utilities, their taxes, buy food, pay the cost to get to the job, pay someone to be responsible for their children while they work, and clothe their family or the business people who set the cost of those things are not providing housing, goods, and services that fit within the budget their wages allow. You decide. If those things were balanced, which they are not, the government would not have to provide a safety net. Business and services people think more about profit and knowing the profit comes from people with more money than they need they focus all their effort in that direction. They take poor neighborhoods and turn them into neighborhoods the poor can't live in. Really what is their goal? Would they like to round up all those who have for whatever reason fallen on hard times and execute them? Because by not housing them and not feeding them, that is what you are doing.

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mlbrowne's avatar

As part of employee orientation at Walmart, new hires learn how to apply for Medicaid and SNAP benefits. A GAO study was published back in 2020 that clearly showed us who the real "welfare queens" were: Walmart, McDonalds, Kroger, Amazon, Burger King, Dollar General, Target, T.J. Maxx, Chick-Fil-A, and others, whose employees work full time, yet aren't paid a living wage that supports them and their families.

It's pretty shameful, and it's still going on. Here's a link to the GAO report.

https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-21-45.pdf

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Alicia Peterson's avatar

Start reading/listening to what is really going on out there. You’re like a horse with blinders!

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Michael Langford's avatar

James, you do know, don’t you, that all this banter on HCR’s site is further exposing you to the surveillance state? May the force be with you, my son.

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James A's avatar

Always beware of those who come to help.

The most dangerous people are the sanctimonious left who come in the name of compassion.

Just ask the 100,000,000 people murdered last century in the name of leftist utopia.

You can never achieve equality without authoritarianism.

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