MLRGRMI, there's plenty not to like about the Democratic party on policy grounds alone. Bill Clinton's neoliberalism brought us NAFTA, which was a disaster. Obama would have slipped the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) to us if he'd have been able to get it through and Hillary certainly would have made it happen. TPP was a corporate give …
MLRGRMI, there's plenty not to like about the Democratic party on policy grounds alone. Bill Clinton's neoliberalism brought us NAFTA, which was a disaster. Obama would have slipped the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) to us if he'd have been able to get it through and Hillary certainly would have made it happen. TPP was a corporate give away and would have made NAFTA look tame by comparison. Both the Republican the Democratic parties have been feeding out of the same corporate trough for decades and stoking Ike's dreaded "Military Industrial Complex". I happen to think independent voters are more tuned in to policy issues than either of the mainstream parties whose inbred politicians are totally hooked on K Street campaign contributions. My vote for Stein was my statement in support of a third party as much as an expression of revulsion concerning Trump/Hillary. Identity politics is a very bad idea because it allows people to feel good about voting without doing much thinking. No offense intended.
Well, you Independent voters who could not stomach a vote for Hilary Clinton have given us the Gilead SCROTUS. 2016 was not about the presidency, it was about the Supreme Court.
No offense taken. Identity politics as a strategy is, and has been with us, for good or bad. It drives and manipulates ALL voters, gop, dem and independent. Just as you see left/right voters feeling good about voting without doing much thinking, I feel the same way about the independent voters trying to feel good about a bad choice in the strategy game. Independent voters thought Dems would do the work of stopping trump. All their supposed thinking amounted to the situation we are in. That is not to say that B. Clinton, nor Obama should be above political critique. Considering W. Bush and trump, I’ll take B. Clinton and Obama again. In my opinion, fortunately we have Biden. I agree with his adage: “Don’t compare to the Almighty. Compare to the alternative”. And understand the Electoral College reality.
Fair enough, MLRGRMI, except for two things. I can't speak for other independents, but it never occurred to me to "leave it to the Democrats". I actually didn't believe that there were enough Republicans stupid (or cynical) enough to elect this clown, Trump. I was wrong. And second, I don't "identify" as an "Independent". I think of myself as an independent voter precisely because I don't identify as either a Democrat or a Republican. Ciao.
Are you foolish enough to believe Democratic and Republican voters are a monolith and stick together like a school of fish or lemmings choosing to walk over a cliff? The arrogance of Independent Voters really gets my goat. All voters make their final decisions at the poll on election day, not during the primary. Independents make the party affiliated choose the candidates along with the issues and then complain about their choices. Try being involved in choosing the policies and issues that matter and the candidates that support them when you have a choice. Sitting back and doing your Monday morning quarterbacking is offensive.
"All voters make their final decisions at the poll on election day, not during the primary."
That's a pretty broad brush you're trying to tar independent voters with, and the above statement about "all voters" just isn't true.
I'm proof that it's not. I make my decisions about who I will vote for well before the election day arrives. I learn as much as I can about the candidates, what they stand for, what they support, and any past actions they've made that might indicate what they're likely to do in the term of office. I'm doing what I believe is a sane, rational way to put people into elective offices who will promote the ideas and institutions that serve us all.
When I enter the polling place, I am armed with facts and data that support my decisions. I know not everyone casts votes using my way, but I also know I am not the only one who uses this way to cast their own votes.
I replied in anger. I was replying in frustration. I prepare my decision for whom I vote in much the same way as you. Yes, extending my comment to "all" was immature and incorrect. I set the deadline for the final decision at poll day because until you cast your ballot you can change your mind. What if something was revealed that exposed the candidate was hiding something egregious? Look at what happened to Hillary. Folks showed in polling they supported her. Then the FBI reopened the email case I believe. Her numbers fell precipitously and she lost. Afterwards, she was not charged with any crime, civil or criminal. The person who swept up those voters is trying to destroy our democracy either through ignorance or malice or something in between. Look at what happened to Santos. Oh right, he wasn't exposed until after the election. Do you consider those voters to have failed in their diligence or in their inability to see through the lies much as those who chose Trump as the lesser of evils.
Gee Paula, In one short paragraph you’ve managed to call me foolish, arrogant, ignorant of the voting process, uninvolved and an offensive Monday morning quarterback. Nice job, and please remind me never to get on your bad side. It may or may not interest you to know that in my very red state you aren’t even ALLOWED to vote for primary candidates as a registered Independent. I handle it in my own way, which I won’t go into here because it would very likely get me shot if my neighbors got wind of it. But don’t you worry about all that; you’ve got me PEGGED!
Sorry, this is a fight I have with my brother. He's an independent and he denigrates me for being a registered Democrat so that I can vote in the primary. I was a registered Republican before the Iraq war. That's when Bush burst my bubble and I learned to question agendas on both sides of the political spectrum. I decided I just don't belong in the Bootstrap Club. I've seen too much of life to believe that propaganda. Good luck with your guerilla warfare. I'd like the nation to move to ranked choice voting rather than primaries.
Political critique is for old people in peaceful times reviewing other old people’s memoirs. Right now it is a distraction. Please critique the Trump administration and suggest additional steps the Biden administration can take to repair all the damage.
I don't agree about the partisanship of NAFTA or TPP. These were both efforts by corporate America to send jobs overseas so they could reduce the cost of labor. The liberal part of this was the hope to bring all countries around the world to a better economic standing by sharing opportunities. Globalization is the issue and we haven't yet learned how to make it workable. The extension of supply chains, often unintentionally hidden, is one of those problems specifically the identification of critical supply chains. The issue we've not yet brought up is food. America now has access to fruits and vegetables out of season. The northern hemisphere is buying from the southern hemisphere. How do we avoid food insecurity in the southern hemisphere where leaders are more than willing to sell the lion's share to the northern hemisphere? Is there a reciprocal deal for the northern hemisphere to sell the lion's share to the southern hemisphere? How do we deal with water? Another critical question is, do we allow for migration during extended droughts or do we really start to do water management? In America, we have people moving to areas of the country where the water is critically short. Do we provide water for showers, flushing toilets, and such or do we prioritize food production? This is not an exaggeration. It has become worse because politicians have been in a "not my water" standoff for at least five and maybe ten years on the other side of the Mississippi River. This problem was predicted and reported to Congress well before 1900. The interest of those who want to make money always overrides the scientific evidence of the danger that the methods the money interests used will cause.
I was recently driving across the American desert southwest and was astonished at how jarring it was to observe an irrigated desert. After traveling for miles over terrain that clearly wouldn't support anything larger than a small rodent, with plants widely separated because the water content doesn't allow any tighter grouping, I would suddenly enter lush fields of fruit trees, or vegetable crops, all supported by the chattering hoses of the irrigation system.
The air would instantly become softer from the water being sprayed around. Plants that only thrive in places with a hundred times more rainfall are thriving there, all through the use of irrigation. I dunno where that water comes from, but it isn't present on the surface, that's for sure. I know the word "unnatural" gets misused a lot, but there is something really creepy about having an artificial oasis in the middle of the desert that's growing a substantial portion of our food supply.
Sadly it is the age old aquifers that are being depleted in an effort to green the desert and provide water to places that would otherwise be inhospitable to large populations. So too is climate change melting the glaciers that many countries use as a major source of water. We can live w/o gas/oil (a BIG adjustment), but we can’t live w/o potable water. We humans are depleting the earth’s resources and altering it to the detriment of all species we share this pale blue dot with.
MLRGRMI, there's plenty not to like about the Democratic party on policy grounds alone. Bill Clinton's neoliberalism brought us NAFTA, which was a disaster. Obama would have slipped the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) to us if he'd have been able to get it through and Hillary certainly would have made it happen. TPP was a corporate give away and would have made NAFTA look tame by comparison. Both the Republican the Democratic parties have been feeding out of the same corporate trough for decades and stoking Ike's dreaded "Military Industrial Complex". I happen to think independent voters are more tuned in to policy issues than either of the mainstream parties whose inbred politicians are totally hooked on K Street campaign contributions. My vote for Stein was my statement in support of a third party as much as an expression of revulsion concerning Trump/Hillary. Identity politics is a very bad idea because it allows people to feel good about voting without doing much thinking. No offense intended.
Well, you Independent voters who could not stomach a vote for Hilary Clinton have given us the Gilead SCROTUS. 2016 was not about the presidency, it was about the Supreme Court.
No offense taken. Identity politics as a strategy is, and has been with us, for good or bad. It drives and manipulates ALL voters, gop, dem and independent. Just as you see left/right voters feeling good about voting without doing much thinking, I feel the same way about the independent voters trying to feel good about a bad choice in the strategy game. Independent voters thought Dems would do the work of stopping trump. All their supposed thinking amounted to the situation we are in. That is not to say that B. Clinton, nor Obama should be above political critique. Considering W. Bush and trump, I’ll take B. Clinton and Obama again. In my opinion, fortunately we have Biden. I agree with his adage: “Don’t compare to the Almighty. Compare to the alternative”. And understand the Electoral College reality.
Fair enough, MLRGRMI, except for two things. I can't speak for other independents, but it never occurred to me to "leave it to the Democrats". I actually didn't believe that there were enough Republicans stupid (or cynical) enough to elect this clown, Trump. I was wrong. And second, I don't "identify" as an "Independent". I think of myself as an independent voter precisely because I don't identify as either a Democrat or a Republican. Ciao.
Are you foolish enough to believe Democratic and Republican voters are a monolith and stick together like a school of fish or lemmings choosing to walk over a cliff? The arrogance of Independent Voters really gets my goat. All voters make their final decisions at the poll on election day, not during the primary. Independents make the party affiliated choose the candidates along with the issues and then complain about their choices. Try being involved in choosing the policies and issues that matter and the candidates that support them when you have a choice. Sitting back and doing your Monday morning quarterbacking is offensive.
"All voters make their final decisions at the poll on election day, not during the primary."
That's a pretty broad brush you're trying to tar independent voters with, and the above statement about "all voters" just isn't true.
I'm proof that it's not. I make my decisions about who I will vote for well before the election day arrives. I learn as much as I can about the candidates, what they stand for, what they support, and any past actions they've made that might indicate what they're likely to do in the term of office. I'm doing what I believe is a sane, rational way to put people into elective offices who will promote the ideas and institutions that serve us all.
When I enter the polling place, I am armed with facts and data that support my decisions. I know not everyone casts votes using my way, but I also know I am not the only one who uses this way to cast their own votes.
I replied in anger. I was replying in frustration. I prepare my decision for whom I vote in much the same way as you. Yes, extending my comment to "all" was immature and incorrect. I set the deadline for the final decision at poll day because until you cast your ballot you can change your mind. What if something was revealed that exposed the candidate was hiding something egregious? Look at what happened to Hillary. Folks showed in polling they supported her. Then the FBI reopened the email case I believe. Her numbers fell precipitously and she lost. Afterwards, she was not charged with any crime, civil or criminal. The person who swept up those voters is trying to destroy our democracy either through ignorance or malice or something in between. Look at what happened to Santos. Oh right, he wasn't exposed until after the election. Do you consider those voters to have failed in their diligence or in their inability to see through the lies much as those who chose Trump as the lesser of evils.
Gee Paula, In one short paragraph you’ve managed to call me foolish, arrogant, ignorant of the voting process, uninvolved and an offensive Monday morning quarterback. Nice job, and please remind me never to get on your bad side. It may or may not interest you to know that in my very red state you aren’t even ALLOWED to vote for primary candidates as a registered Independent. I handle it in my own way, which I won’t go into here because it would very likely get me shot if my neighbors got wind of it. But don’t you worry about all that; you’ve got me PEGGED!
Sorry, this is a fight I have with my brother. He's an independent and he denigrates me for being a registered Democrat so that I can vote in the primary. I was a registered Republican before the Iraq war. That's when Bush burst my bubble and I learned to question agendas on both sides of the political spectrum. I decided I just don't belong in the Bootstrap Club. I've seen too much of life to believe that propaganda. Good luck with your guerilla warfare. I'd like the nation to move to ranked choice voting rather than primaries.
Political critique is for old people in peaceful times reviewing other old people’s memoirs. Right now it is a distraction. Please critique the Trump administration and suggest additional steps the Biden administration can take to repair all the damage.
I don't agree about the partisanship of NAFTA or TPP. These were both efforts by corporate America to send jobs overseas so they could reduce the cost of labor. The liberal part of this was the hope to bring all countries around the world to a better economic standing by sharing opportunities. Globalization is the issue and we haven't yet learned how to make it workable. The extension of supply chains, often unintentionally hidden, is one of those problems specifically the identification of critical supply chains. The issue we've not yet brought up is food. America now has access to fruits and vegetables out of season. The northern hemisphere is buying from the southern hemisphere. How do we avoid food insecurity in the southern hemisphere where leaders are more than willing to sell the lion's share to the northern hemisphere? Is there a reciprocal deal for the northern hemisphere to sell the lion's share to the southern hemisphere? How do we deal with water? Another critical question is, do we allow for migration during extended droughts or do we really start to do water management? In America, we have people moving to areas of the country where the water is critically short. Do we provide water for showers, flushing toilets, and such or do we prioritize food production? This is not an exaggeration. It has become worse because politicians have been in a "not my water" standoff for at least five and maybe ten years on the other side of the Mississippi River. This problem was predicted and reported to Congress well before 1900. The interest of those who want to make money always overrides the scientific evidence of the danger that the methods the money interests used will cause.
I was recently driving across the American desert southwest and was astonished at how jarring it was to observe an irrigated desert. After traveling for miles over terrain that clearly wouldn't support anything larger than a small rodent, with plants widely separated because the water content doesn't allow any tighter grouping, I would suddenly enter lush fields of fruit trees, or vegetable crops, all supported by the chattering hoses of the irrigation system.
The air would instantly become softer from the water being sprayed around. Plants that only thrive in places with a hundred times more rainfall are thriving there, all through the use of irrigation. I dunno where that water comes from, but it isn't present on the surface, that's for sure. I know the word "unnatural" gets misused a lot, but there is something really creepy about having an artificial oasis in the middle of the desert that's growing a substantial portion of our food supply.
Sadly it is the age old aquifers that are being depleted in an effort to green the desert and provide water to places that would otherwise be inhospitable to large populations. So too is climate change melting the glaciers that many countries use as a major source of water. We can live w/o gas/oil (a BIG adjustment), but we can’t live w/o potable water. We humans are depleting the earth’s resources and altering it to the detriment of all species we share this pale blue dot with.