I have NEVER understood the need for religions to proselytize. If you've got a good "product" people should be flocking to you. This isn't exactly what you've addressed here, but it is one of my personal "I don't get it" things.
What I see with the religious "community" isn't so much keeping one's religion to themselves, it it the need to shout it out and shove it down everyone's throat that theirs is the "one, true way" and that their belief should transcend everything else.
It's interesting to contemplate the prehistoric roots of religion. Before a certain time, many early communities were built upon egalitarian care of each other without interpersonal violence or designation of master-to-slave hierarchies. (cf: The Dawn of Everything)
Something changed. The warrior/administrator evolved. He gave himself special qualities for the sake of keeping power and gathering wealth. He demanded a fancy funeral with promises of returning after life in order to continue the same. Ergo, the concept of god. Then he sent others to battle while he directed from behind. He called himself king.
With very few exceptions, this person was an adult male who repressed his own people as well as warring with other tribes. I tell myself nothing much has changed.
There is, of course, spirituality which is integral to most of us. It defines our place in the universe and our relationship with all creation. A truly spiritual person is at ease with being a temporary, small cog in the midst of wonder. It is not the same thing as religion at all.
HOPE ! You are! SO Close! to HIS Truth !! " A Truly Spiritual Person IS AT Ease, with Being a TEMPORARY Small Cog in THE HANDS, of a WONDERFULL, LOVING GOD! ETERNITY! Awaits US!
Ally (you are mine!) Years ago I had a friend (pastor) who obtained a PhD in divinity writing his dissertation on тАЬMarketing Christianity.тАЭ He related this to the task of marketing Protestantism and the distinctions between Presbyterianism, Methods, Baptists, Episcopalians, Lutherans (evangelicals were not in his marketing play book).
He seemed more focused on money than the moral teachings of Jesus Christ.
HmmтАж the story about your friend reminded me of my moment of epiphany when I was about 12. Being raised Catholic by a very religious Catholic mother, I had been attending an all-girls Catholic school ran by Maryknoll sisters who indoctrinated students about humility and compassion, yet lived a luxurious lifestyle AND discriminated against those of us who, not as wealthy as their favorite pupils, couldnтАЩt contribute regularly to their repetitive fundraising causes. I thought they were Capitalist ChristiansтАФyes, an oxymoron, but an accurate description of their agendas. And how can we forget the genocidal conquests that were carried out in the тАЬNew WorldтАЭ under the guise of evangelization by order of the Catholic rulers of Spain? Six centuries later, a similar genocide is being fostered by contemporary Catholic rulers who havenтАЩt changed one bit since the Middle Ages and are now vowing to make a dime by allying themselves with righteous politicians. Shameful!!!
Rose. CC=Capitalist Christians & Catholic Church (or am I repeating myself?) Francis, who preached poverty, was saintified, while, after his death, two of his principal followers were harshly treated for espousing poverty. Later one could purchase indulgences forgiving you for future sins, as the new St. PeterтАЩs was being financed.
Witzil doing this in Martin LutherтАЩs parish prmpted Luther to post the 95 theses and establish the Protestant church. (Soon thereafterLther married a former nun)
AhhhтАж those indulgences! I posted something about them elsewhere, earlier today. Technically, those who could (can?) afford them supposedly skip purgatory. No difference in death than in life, where our prisons are filled with those who canтАЩt afford decent legal representation. I donтАЩt believe in the Christian representation of hell, but I hope there is a karma, or a final justice system, that disburses accountability and due punishment to those who have earned it. At the top of my list of nominees: tfg
Also, on the subject of nuns, celibacy of Catholic priests and nuns is mostly a myth. IтАЩve visited several convents that had tunnels connecting to monasteries; buried within their walls were numerous fetusesтАФhmmmтАж were they aborted? The horror if hypocricy!
I am not sure of the celibacy issues but the concept of marriage of priests, nuns, popes, within the Catholic Church being forbidden early on except for the тАЬmarriageтАЭ to Jesus, insured all wealth, gold and power stayed within the Church and not frittered away in bloodline inheritances.
Michael Celibacy of priests was initiated in the 12th century. Popes and cardinals were clearly excluded. If you want a racy read, read the section on Renaissance Popes in Barbara TuchmanтАЩs book THE MARCH OF FOLLY. This includes the Trojan horse, the Brits in the American colonies, and Vietnam.
Her Renaissance popes would be in an X-rated movie rating. Bastard sons and 11-year-old cardinals.
This is interesting! The distinction among Christians that has long intrigued me is the one between denominations that emphasize hierarchy and those where congregations are more autonomous. This was a big driver of the Reformation, with the Catholic Church on the "most hierarchical" end and eventually the various Protestant denominations strung out on a continuum, with the Episcopalians/Anglicans not all that far from the Catholics and maybe the Friends at the other end. (I don't know much about the Orthodox tradition(s), but from the outside they seem to combine hierarchy with autonomy -- one of these days I'll learn more about how that works.)
The religions that proselytize (not all of them do) seem to think that they're doing unbelievers a favor by giving them the key to eternal life or heaven or a similar great reward. That's the theory, anyway. In practice? A quick review of the proselytizers' actions over the centuries, both with and without the sword, should give one pause.
I should add, though, that individual missionaries may be guided by genuinely altruistic motives and may improve the lives of those they attempt to convert. But I can't say the same for the institutions behind them.
One of the very first concerns of any biological organism is to replicate and reproduce. Without replication, they die out. Some factions of Christianity, just like some other religions one could name, resemble a cult, and one of the first things a cult has to do is self-preservation, just like a replicating organism, so that means make lots of babies and proselytize like mad. There's safety in numbers. They then keep their members in line and gain new ones by convincing them all these dire things will happen to them if they don't follow the rules, plus convincing them all these wonderful rewards await them in somewhere the sky. Rule by fear and promise them pie. All these religions are convinced THEY posses the "truth", so they then slaughter each other (and anyone else who doesn't believe as they do) to prove it, and whoever is left, wins. Welcome to the human race.
We have a fairly devout cult here; a Mormon offshoot called "General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn". They are very male dominated and anti medicine. I personally handled two death investigations of preventable origin: an infected wound that went untreated (of an adult), and appendicitis (of a 15 year old boy). Ironically, the adult was the father of the son, whose mother had remarried a man who lost his wife in childbirth (preventable, had there been medical intervention). The latter ended up as a criminal investigation that netted a conviction of Criminally Negligent Homicide for the parents.
I am a HUGE proponent of the separation of church and state. The 15 year old was a very difficult investigation for me, personally. It boils down to protecting children.
A good example about a religious organism dying out was the Shakers-they didn't marry/have children. They took in outsiders or orphan children who would live with them for periods of time by the individual's choice or grown up. But boy, were they great craftsmen, believed in laborsaving devices for workers, and entrepreneurs. (What we consider the standard flat corn broom was invented by them.) They came up with the concept of packaging seeds for sale, which still exists today. (a tidbit about the Shaker chairs-the cross bar slats were so the chairs could be hung on the walls to make sweeping easier.) (Yes, I've been to two or three Shaker villages.)
Could you be more specific about what or whom you consider "mind-bogglingly self centered and arrogant"? The way threading works in Substack, it's sometimes hard to tell what comments are replying to.
I find the Catholic Bishops statement in opposition to both the ERA and the codification of women's equality to be nothing short of disgraceful.
Yet your defamatory comment about the Bishops as a whole is way out of line. Let's not use MTG-esque language here to assign the ugly abuses by some to all.
Old Testament stuff. New Testament does not condemn or blame women as the generators of sin--except for Paul, that judgmental misogynist--indeed, Jesus considered Mary as one of the Apostles, although the Roman Catholic (male) hierarchy has done it's best to obscure that nugget.
Yes, I know this. Never have been a fan of Paul. Early church fathers spent too much time sitting on pillars in the desert or having fun and then renouncing the riotous life. The presence of women causes so much trouble.
Adam and Eve is an allegorical story. Look behind the literal interpretation and you may better understand the allegory and what it was meant to convey.
What a choice! We have three apple trees that are espaliers. We also have Asian pears, Barrett's, Asian persimmons, jujus, a cherry tree, a fig tree, quince and medlar. I have just finished a rendition of Gilgamesh. It was very interesting to see some OT themes in that. Before that I read some temple hymns written probably by a high priestess at Ur. Now I am looking to learn more about Sumer in particular and the ancient middle east in particular. My current read is Drive Your Plow Over the Bones and I am chuckling away at the humor although I think it is also a serious book.
The Bishops take on the ERA is undoubtedly un Christian. Yet, without dragging this on unduly, to accuse an entire group of engaging in criminal acts when the entire group did not commit them is pretty much defamation per se
Just a gentle reminder to you both that Joseph Robinette Biden is Catholic. Without putting too fine a point on it, our President is who he is because of his faith - not despite it. President Biden is, without a doubt, one of the best examples of a President acting in a truly Christian manner but also in a way that respects the separation of Church and State in my lifetime. I know you can see that as well as I do.
I grew up in a deeply Catholic household. I left the Church long ago for reasons you both understand. But I am also a daily witness to many ordinary Catholics who live in ways that are faithful, respectful and loving - including my younger brotherтАЩs work running a 150 bed treatment center for homeless alcoholics. His faith is unshakeable. Thank heavens for that.
If examples like Patrick made the daily news, your opinions of Catholics might tick up a bit, MikeS. They donтАЩt. Please remember that Bishops donтАЩt represent the majority of their flocks any more than Republicans opinions represent the opinions of the majority of Americans. The governing structure of the Catholic Church is terribly corrupt. The damage they have done to women and children and young men all over the world unfathomable. But donтАЩt throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just watch what Biden DOES, rather than what the bishops think he should do.
Your comments leave me with gratitude that I did not leave a comment sooner. Your comments were good reminders. They burrow deep into the heart and memory, overriding the deeply felt outrage fueled by those coverups. Yet the anger towards that minority, a well heeled, well oiled, self righteous army determined to impose their will on the majority, still fuels a continued resentment and distrust.
Thanks, K, and Sheila, you both said it beautifully. In a similar vein, I would add the example of former President Jimmy Carter in his approach to leading being similar to Biden's. Both are men of strong faith, but both as elected leaders of the people knew their task was to rule in the way the people elected them to lead. Their job was NOT to force a populace to believe what they believe. I think that's what the founders of this country intended: lead the people, but leave your personal faith outside of that. And then, in his post-Presidential work, Carter has really shone his true colours: commitment to helping others. You wanna be like Jesus? Then serve your fellow man, and do it quietly, under the radar, without calling attention to yourself. Jesus exhorted us to do that very thing. Help only for the sake of helping, not to show how wonderful you are. There ARE many many Christians who do just that, and they are the ones you never hear about, which is as it should be. Yes, I believe the RCC is, in its leadership, one of the most corrupt entities around, but in spite of that, there are many of its members who follow Christ's example anyway. Personally, I could never be Catholic myself because of its tenets--so I'm Anglican: all of the theatrical pageantry, none of the guilt!--but I have many Catholic friends who I know ARE good Christians and who are not supportive of much of their leadership hierarchy. In that regard I feel kinda sorry for them (actually, sometimes the leaders in my denomination aren't perfect either...), but we carry on anyway.
By that I do not mean that the majority of religious believers in this Country are not Christians, as they are. Rather, in spite of the gratingly annoying noise emanating from the Hobby Lobbyists, the US of A was founded on political principles derived from, for the most part, the Enlightenment. On the subject of religion, Messrs. Locke, Montesquieu, Diderot, etc. were skeptical, to say the least.
But that does not mean that principles whose origins are found in the Christian Bible, Catholic or Protestant, and in various church teachings have no place in politics. The trouble comes in when those who are, as I see it, mostly faux religious, misusing their claimed Christianity as a tribal weapon of exclusion, the exact opposite of the teachings of the Prince of Peace.
It's sad we're losing Jimmy Carter soon. He has always been a good human being who lived his beliefs. (It's also appalling what Regan did to sabotage Jimmy's efforts to end the Iran Hostage situation for his own political gain. (and so many other bad things Reagan did that we're still having to deal with.)
This is why I refuse to paint every believer with the same brush. Yes, some are hypocrites, but a lot of people are motivated by their faith to become active in helping others as you, Sheila, point out with your brother.
Sheila, thank you for reminding us that there ARE good Catholics and, by extension, good Christians. Indeed, Biden is an excellent example! I think that the criticisms expressed here chastise the institutionalized, organized Catholic Church leadership that speaks on behalf of all Catholics and endorses propositions that politicize the religion and in essence are unchristian.
Sadly, the hierarchy is sort of the PR for their churches and they end up getting the lion's share of the publicity. Having that sort of a "bully pulpit" seems to lead them to embracing more of an "agenda", and then trying to push church dogma. Power does corrupt, even ecclesiastical power.
I am not arguing that it was or was not defamation.
However, I would say that the overall Catholic leadership culture, possibly for centuries, has, in fact, fully supported and condoned and perhaps even encouraged "criminal acts" given the massive number of priests and Bishops that have been removed, and charged with crimes, all across America.
It is not like two or three guys got caught out. Half the priests in Boston alone were relieved of duty.
So, yes, I am sure there were some priests NOT engaging in criminal behavior but the way the Catholic church hid and condoned the widespread criminal behavior, probably for hundreds of years?
C'mon. Is it really "defamation" to write the truth in a way that that captures reality in an eyes wide open manner?
As noted: The comment has been removed out of respect for your feedback.
тАЬCatholic leaders culture for centuries, has, in fact, fully supported and condoned and perhaps even encouraged тАШcriminal actsтАЩ.тАЭ So true, Mike! During the Crusades, Pope Urban II offered papal indulgences (which technically reduced or eliminated the prescribed punishment for committing sins) to any soldier who participated in these religious, тАЬjustтАЭ wars. In fact, indulgences were promised even in advance of the commission of the sins (perhaps as an incentive to recruit troops), and some indulgences were even sold! The Conquest of the Americas saw a prolongation of this Capitalist system that profiteered from the sale of religious commodities.
I somewhat disagree with your statement about bishops who didnтАЩt directly commit crimes not being responsible for the crimes the priests committed in their dioceses. The bishopтАЩs office is the Catholic HR, and there wasnтАЩt a single complaint or accusation that didnтАЩt go through their office. BISHOPS protected predatory priests by using their standing to shame a family out of reporting any incidents. BISHOPS moved those priests from parish to parish instead of defrocking sexual predators, each time giving them fresh meat to gnaw on.
Cardinal Whuerl even tried to expose the problem in the early 2000s when he was the Bishop of the Pittsburgh Diocese, but his true function was to act contrite and get NDAs from the families in exchange for money. The bishops cannot extricate themselves form a problem they perpetuated.
I understand, and join in the condemnation down the line of those bishops who hid, obfuscated and transferred the predator priests, as well as downplaying the problem.
YET, the point remains that one cannot fairly or accurately cast the condemnatory net over the entirety of the Catholic bishops.
Beyond that, the glaringly out of touch error of the bishops' position on the ERA stands on its own, without the need to color the margins with inappropriate references to the abuse scandals.
I still link the two because the power to dictate to oneтАЩs followers is the power to oppress, manipulate, and abuse. TheyтАЩre not out of touch; rather they are the rock against which the waves of progress slam. And though there is a sense of safety one feels in acquiescing to the standard, that standard hides its own sins that leaders never feel the need to disclose.
And if youтАЩre so sure of the integrity of your diocese, ask your bishop for total transparency, on any complaint made about any priests in the last 30 years. Good luck.
So since I started this conversation way above, I would like to add: Yes, Daniel, not every bishop is a criminal, it's true. HOWEVER, and I say this from experience working for one, as a group they do NOT engage in "fraternal correction" as they are supposed to do. Since each bishop is in effect accountable to no one--really not even the Pope except in rare circumstances--they can get away with everything. Fraternal correction, if indeed it is ever done, has absolutely no effect. If not one bishop (and remember, bishops are the direct descendants of the apostles) has the cojones to stand up and say "this is wrong," then it's not so terribly wrong to call them all accomplices.
Gosh, Mike, you did not tell everyone to FO. This tells me that Gangrene and her staff do not have an answer, so they resort to four letter words to avoid saying anything that actually answers the reporter's question and that she and her staff know she made a fool of herself...again.
I have no doubt that Empty's staff are rather sick of having to field constant questions from the press when Empty shoots off her mouth and spills out one of her inflammatory but utterly senseless little "gems".
It should be noted that her overt disrespect for anybody or anything other than her little far-right allies and groupies has clearly rubbed off on her staff and they treat media folk like shyte. that may not be to her long-term advantage although it's obvious her little red fanboys and girls think it proves how "strong-minded and defiant of the elite establishment" she is. Ugh. Her ego would gag a gator.
Mike, I support your view on the corruption and criminality of the leadership of the Catholic Church. Despite a dire shortage of priests, the hierarchy refuses to allow women priests. The egregious child abuse was atrocious enough but the revealed cover up piled suffering upon suffering of innocent people. It happened in my own back yard, bringing with it suicides, broken families and fractured lives. The main perpetrator never spent a minute in jail. Now the arrogance of Catholic bishops sending damning letters to our government leaders warning of the тАЬdamageтАЭ perpetrated by ratification of the ERA is enough to make this woman wonder how in literally GodтАЩs name does one support a religion that blatantly hurts its most vulnerable, denies acceptance of the LGBT community and fights to place women in second class citizenry. It sickens my soul that I was Catholic until age 50. The good people of this religion need to stand up to this ongoing atrocity within their leadership. Stand up for JesusтАЩs tenets of loving one another, protecting the poor and bringing fairness and justice to all mankind.
When I was 10 or 11 yrs old my mother told me that Jesus said the most important commandment was Love. Nothing more, nothing less, simply Love. Basically saying all the others could be disregarded as acting with Love encompassed them.
And the Dalai Lama says "My religion is kindness." Just acting from love and kindness is the key to living humanely with each other. No need for the trappings of religion.
Ally, the root of the тАЬsicknessтАЭ is the many years in my life supporting such hurtful dogma. I was taught as a child that all non Catholics were doomed to hell. Imagine a child of 6 or 7 hearing that and worrying about the non Catholic loved ones in her life. My gay sister took the time (as an adult) to ask a priest to explain the churchтАЩs position on homosexuality; she was a devoted Catholic. He said she could not be part of the Catholic Church if she remained gay. This dogma is antithetical to the teachings of the prophet upon which the religion is centered. The sadness I speak of is the unwillingness of millions of good Catholics to create/demand change in the hierarchy.
Moureen, Religion is always a Difficult subject as there are so many different points of view amongst the practitioners. My humble view is that Faith is something someone acquires thru introspection and cannot and should not be imposed. we must allow each other to find our own faith pertinent to ourselves. I find that in most religions there are common threads to be found in kindness and a sense of community.
(a phrase hijacked from those recovering from an addiction of some sort. Then again Christian religious fervor - proselytizing etc - is akin to addiction.)
How did that work the the survivors of child abuse by parish priests for years? The Catholic Church and their administration including Bishops STILL has a lot to answer for.
Separation of church and state: one must respect the law of the land, and keep ones religion to ones self.
I have NEVER understood the need for religions to proselytize. If you've got a good "product" people should be flocking to you. This isn't exactly what you've addressed here, but it is one of my personal "I don't get it" things.
What I see with the religious "community" isn't so much keeping one's religion to themselves, it it the need to shout it out and shove it down everyone's throat that theirs is the "one, true way" and that their belief should transcend everything else.
It's interesting to contemplate the prehistoric roots of religion. Before a certain time, many early communities were built upon egalitarian care of each other without interpersonal violence or designation of master-to-slave hierarchies. (cf: The Dawn of Everything)
Something changed. The warrior/administrator evolved. He gave himself special qualities for the sake of keeping power and gathering wealth. He demanded a fancy funeral with promises of returning after life in order to continue the same. Ergo, the concept of god. Then he sent others to battle while he directed from behind. He called himself king.
With very few exceptions, this person was an adult male who repressed his own people as well as warring with other tribes. I tell myself nothing much has changed.
There is, of course, spirituality which is integral to most of us. It defines our place in the universe and our relationship with all creation. A truly spiritual person is at ease with being a temporary, small cog in the midst of wonder. It is not the same thing as religion at all.
Excellent observations, Hope!
HOPE ! You are! SO Close! to HIS Truth !! " A Truly Spiritual Person IS AT Ease, with Being a TEMPORARY Small Cog in THE HANDS, of a WONDERFULL, LOVING GOD! ETERNITY! Awaits US!
Ally (you are mine!) Years ago I had a friend (pastor) who obtained a PhD in divinity writing his dissertation on тАЬMarketing Christianity.тАЭ He related this to the task of marketing Protestantism and the distinctions between Presbyterianism, Methods, Baptists, Episcopalians, Lutherans (evangelicals were not in his marketing play book).
He seemed more focused on money than the moral teachings of Jesus Christ.
HmmтАж the story about your friend reminded me of my moment of epiphany when I was about 12. Being raised Catholic by a very religious Catholic mother, I had been attending an all-girls Catholic school ran by Maryknoll sisters who indoctrinated students about humility and compassion, yet lived a luxurious lifestyle AND discriminated against those of us who, not as wealthy as their favorite pupils, couldnтАЩt contribute regularly to their repetitive fundraising causes. I thought they were Capitalist ChristiansтАФyes, an oxymoron, but an accurate description of their agendas. And how can we forget the genocidal conquests that were carried out in the тАЬNew WorldтАЭ under the guise of evangelization by order of the Catholic rulers of Spain? Six centuries later, a similar genocide is being fostered by contemporary Catholic rulers who havenтАЩt changed one bit since the Middle Ages and are now vowing to make a dime by allying themselves with righteous politicians. Shameful!!!
Rose. CC=Capitalist Christians & Catholic Church (or am I repeating myself?) Francis, who preached poverty, was saintified, while, after his death, two of his principal followers were harshly treated for espousing poverty. Later one could purchase indulgences forgiving you for future sins, as the new St. PeterтАЩs was being financed.
Witzil doing this in Martin LutherтАЩs parish prmpted Luther to post the 95 theses and establish the Protestant church. (Soon thereafterLther married a former nun)
AhhhтАж those indulgences! I posted something about them elsewhere, earlier today. Technically, those who could (can?) afford them supposedly skip purgatory. No difference in death than in life, where our prisons are filled with those who canтАЩt afford decent legal representation. I donтАЩt believe in the Christian representation of hell, but I hope there is a karma, or a final justice system, that disburses accountability and due punishment to those who have earned it. At the top of my list of nominees: tfg
Rose My indulgences include milk shakes and St Louis spare ribs, but, then, I am not Catholic.
LOL! ThatтАЩs a much tastier (and more palatable) indulgence, for sure!
Also, on the subject of nuns, celibacy of Catholic priests and nuns is mostly a myth. IтАЩve visited several convents that had tunnels connecting to monasteries; buried within their walls were numerous fetusesтАФhmmmтАж were they aborted? The horror if hypocricy!
I am not sure of the celibacy issues but the concept of marriage of priests, nuns, popes, within the Catholic Church being forbidden early on except for the тАЬmarriageтАЭ to Jesus, insured all wealth, gold and power stayed within the Church and not frittered away in bloodline inheritances.
Michael Celibacy of priests was initiated in the 12th century. Popes and cardinals were clearly excluded. If you want a racy read, read the section on Renaissance Popes in Barbara TuchmanтАЩs book THE MARCH OF FOLLY. This includes the Trojan horse, the Brits in the American colonies, and Vietnam.
Her Renaissance popes would be in an X-rated movie rating. Bastard sons and 11-year-old cardinals.
This is interesting! The distinction among Christians that has long intrigued me is the one between denominations that emphasize hierarchy and those where congregations are more autonomous. This was a big driver of the Reformation, with the Catholic Church on the "most hierarchical" end and eventually the various Protestant denominations strung out on a continuum, with the Episcopalians/Anglicans not all that far from the Catholics and maybe the Friends at the other end. (I don't know much about the Orthodox tradition(s), but from the outside they seem to combine hierarchy with autonomy -- one of these days I'll learn more about how that works.)
Susanna During my lifetime on various occasions I found comfort at Quaker meetings, where love and silence echoed through the services.
I ended up at Unitarian Universalism. Each congregation is different. We had 3 Quaker-style meetings in lieu of Sunday services each year.
The religions that proselytize (not all of them do) seem to think that they're doing unbelievers a favor by giving them the key to eternal life or heaven or a similar great reward. That's the theory, anyway. In practice? A quick review of the proselytizers' actions over the centuries, both with and without the sword, should give one pause.
I should add, though, that individual missionaries may be guided by genuinely altruistic motives and may improve the lives of those they attempt to convert. But I can't say the same for the institutions behind them.
It's evolution in action. Just like biological organisms, the religions that reproduce the most are the types that dominate.
One of the very first concerns of any biological organism is to replicate and reproduce. Without replication, they die out. Some factions of Christianity, just like some other religions one could name, resemble a cult, and one of the first things a cult has to do is self-preservation, just like a replicating organism, so that means make lots of babies and proselytize like mad. There's safety in numbers. They then keep their members in line and gain new ones by convincing them all these dire things will happen to them if they don't follow the rules, plus convincing them all these wonderful rewards await them in somewhere the sky. Rule by fear and promise them pie. All these religions are convinced THEY posses the "truth", so they then slaughter each other (and anyone else who doesn't believe as they do) to prove it, and whoever is left, wins. Welcome to the human race.
We have a fairly devout cult here; a Mormon offshoot called "General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn". They are very male dominated and anti medicine. I personally handled two death investigations of preventable origin: an infected wound that went untreated (of an adult), and appendicitis (of a 15 year old boy). Ironically, the adult was the father of the son, whose mother had remarried a man who lost his wife in childbirth (preventable, had there been medical intervention). The latter ended up as a criminal investigation that netted a conviction of Criminally Negligent Homicide for the parents.
I am a HUGE proponent of the separation of church and state. The 15 year old was a very difficult investigation for me, personally. It boils down to protecting children.
A good example about a religious organism dying out was the Shakers-they didn't marry/have children. They took in outsiders or orphan children who would live with them for periods of time by the individual's choice or grown up. But boy, were they great craftsmen, believed in laborsaving devices for workers, and entrepreneurs. (What we consider the standard flat corn broom was invented by them.) They came up with the concept of packaging seeds for sale, which still exists today. (a tidbit about the Shaker chairs-the cross bar slats were so the chairs could be hung on the walls to make sweeping easier.) (Yes, I've been to two or three Shaker villages.)
Mind-bogglingly self centered and arrogant.
Huh. Describes quite a few folks LFAA тАЬstudents тАЬ discuss here.
Could you be more specific about what or whom you consider "mind-bogglingly self centered and arrogant"? The way threading works in Substack, it's sometimes hard to tell what comments are replying to.
Apparently not...
Just a non-theist's perspective.
Mike,
I find the Catholic Bishops statement in opposition to both the ERA and the codification of women's equality to be nothing short of disgraceful.
Yet your defamatory comment about the Bishops as a whole is way out of line. Let's not use MTG-esque language here to assign the ugly abuses by some to all.
Daniel, it might be hyperbolic but itтАЩs not defamatory. The bishopsтАЩ behavior is un-Christian at a minimum.
It is actually very "Christian." Eve is the cause of all sin in the world.
Old Testament stuff. New Testament does not condemn or blame women as the generators of sin--except for Paul, that judgmental misogynist--indeed, Jesus considered Mary as one of the Apostles, although the Roman Catholic (male) hierarchy has done it's best to obscure that nugget.
Yes, I know this. Never have been a fan of Paul. Early church fathers spent too much time sitting on pillars in the desert or having fun and then renouncing the riotous life. The presence of women causes so much trouble.
Michelle Paul, who initially had opposed Jesus, later was marketing the Jesus movement to non-Jews. He relied heavily on women in this effort.
Still not a fan, but nice to know. Thanks. I can understand how women would be attracted.
Adam and Eve is an allegorical story. Look behind the literal interpretation and you may better understand the allegory and what it was meant to convey.
George The other version of creation in the Old Testament did not mention Adam and Eve. How could this be the тАШliteralтАЩ word of God?
Of course the тАШBook of MosesтАЩ was written about 400 years after MosesтАЩ death, so it might not be totally accurate.
I understand that. And I understand the allegory.
Everything was paradise until we knew there were gender differences and we had knowledge of you know what.
Michele I grew up on a property with 30 apple trees. Whatever the theological implications, I found the apples damned good.
What a choice! We have three apple trees that are espaliers. We also have Asian pears, Barrett's, Asian persimmons, jujus, a cherry tree, a fig tree, quince and medlar. I have just finished a rendition of Gilgamesh. It was very interesting to see some OT themes in that. Before that I read some temple hymns written probably by a high priestess at Ur. Now I am looking to learn more about Sumer in particular and the ancient middle east in particular. My current read is Drive Your Plow Over the Bones and I am chuckling away at the humor although I think it is also a serious book.
Hi Mike,
The Bishops take on the ERA is undoubtedly un Christian. Yet, without dragging this on unduly, to accuse an entire group of engaging in criminal acts when the entire group did not commit them is pretty much defamation per se
Just a gentle reminder to you both that Joseph Robinette Biden is Catholic. Without putting too fine a point on it, our President is who he is because of his faith - not despite it. President Biden is, without a doubt, one of the best examples of a President acting in a truly Christian manner but also in a way that respects the separation of Church and State in my lifetime. I know you can see that as well as I do.
I grew up in a deeply Catholic household. I left the Church long ago for reasons you both understand. But I am also a daily witness to many ordinary Catholics who live in ways that are faithful, respectful and loving - including my younger brotherтАЩs work running a 150 bed treatment center for homeless alcoholics. His faith is unshakeable. Thank heavens for that.
If examples like Patrick made the daily news, your opinions of Catholics might tick up a bit, MikeS. They donтАЩt. Please remember that Bishops donтАЩt represent the majority of their flocks any more than Republicans opinions represent the opinions of the majority of Americans. The governing structure of the Catholic Church is terribly corrupt. The damage they have done to women and children and young men all over the world unfathomable. But donтАЩt throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just watch what Biden DOES, rather than what the bishops think he should do.
Your comments leave me with gratitude that I did not leave a comment sooner. Your comments were good reminders. They burrow deep into the heart and memory, overriding the deeply felt outrage fueled by those coverups. Yet the anger towards that minority, a well heeled, well oiled, self righteous army determined to impose their will on the majority, still fuels a continued resentment and distrust.
Thank you for your candor, K, and for your kind reply. Your description of those who continue to fuel resentment and distrust is most well put
"including my younger brotherтАЩs work running a 150 bed treatment center for homeless alcoholics. "
Sounds like a good hearted, generous and hard working brother to me Sheila.
The absolute best brother - to all he encounters. Thanks, Mike.
Thanks, K, and Sheila, you both said it beautifully. In a similar vein, I would add the example of former President Jimmy Carter in his approach to leading being similar to Biden's. Both are men of strong faith, but both as elected leaders of the people knew their task was to rule in the way the people elected them to lead. Their job was NOT to force a populace to believe what they believe. I think that's what the founders of this country intended: lead the people, but leave your personal faith outside of that. And then, in his post-Presidential work, Carter has really shone his true colours: commitment to helping others. You wanna be like Jesus? Then serve your fellow man, and do it quietly, under the radar, without calling attention to yourself. Jesus exhorted us to do that very thing. Help only for the sake of helping, not to show how wonderful you are. There ARE many many Christians who do just that, and they are the ones you never hear about, which is as it should be. Yes, I believe the RCC is, in its leadership, one of the most corrupt entities around, but in spite of that, there are many of its members who follow Christ's example anyway. Personally, I could never be Catholic myself because of its tenets--so I'm Anglican: all of the theatrical pageantry, none of the guilt!--but I have many Catholic friends who I know ARE good Christians and who are not supportive of much of their leadership hierarchy. In that regard I feel kinda sorry for them (actually, sometimes the leaders in my denomination aren't perfect either...), but we carry on anyway.
Carry on indeed! Good call, Bruce.
We are not a Christian Nation.
By that I do not mean that the majority of religious believers in this Country are not Christians, as they are. Rather, in spite of the gratingly annoying noise emanating from the Hobby Lobbyists, the US of A was founded on political principles derived from, for the most part, the Enlightenment. On the subject of religion, Messrs. Locke, Montesquieu, Diderot, etc. were skeptical, to say the least.
But that does not mean that principles whose origins are found in the Christian Bible, Catholic or Protestant, and in various church teachings have no place in politics. The trouble comes in when those who are, as I see it, mostly faux religious, misusing their claimed Christianity as a tribal weapon of exclusion, the exact opposite of the teachings of the Prince of Peace.
AMEN ! Daniel !
It's sad we're losing Jimmy Carter soon. He has always been a good human being who lived his beliefs. (It's also appalling what Regan did to sabotage Jimmy's efforts to end the Iran Hostage situation for his own political gain. (and so many other bad things Reagan did that we're still having to deal with.)
This is why I refuse to paint every believer with the same brush. Yes, some are hypocrites, but a lot of people are motivated by their faith to become active in helping others as you, Sheila, point out with your brother.
That was a most lovely post, Sheila. I thank you for your clarity, and both you and your brother for the love you give.
Shiela, thanks so much for this-you spoke my heart. Thank you.
Thank you, Shelia. You are an inspiration and now I learn of your brother,Patrick.Great genes think alike:)
I am watching, with awe, what President Biden does as opposed to what my тАЬdevoutтАЭ Florida Governor doesтАж
I texted Patrick last night with your тАЬGreat genes think alikeтАЭ quote. All I got back was a laugh emoji.
Wonderful person that he is, heтАЩs still just my snarky, smart-ass little brother. ЁЯдг
Sheila, thank you for reminding us that there ARE good Catholics and, by extension, good Christians. Indeed, Biden is an excellent example! I think that the criticisms expressed here chastise the institutionalized, organized Catholic Church leadership that speaks on behalf of all Catholics and endorses propositions that politicize the religion and in essence are unchristian.
Nancy Pelosi is also Catholic.
I think the negativity as to do with the church hierarchy and how it behaves rather than individual Catholics.
Sadly, the hierarchy is sort of the PR for their churches and they end up getting the lion's share of the publicity. Having that sort of a "bully pulpit" seems to lead them to embracing more of an "agenda", and then trying to push church dogma. Power does corrupt, even ecclesiastical power.
Sheila, very well expressed. Please see my comment at the end of this thread.
Daniel,
I am not arguing that it was or was not defamation.
However, I would say that the overall Catholic leadership culture, possibly for centuries, has, in fact, fully supported and condoned and perhaps even encouraged "criminal acts" given the massive number of priests and Bishops that have been removed, and charged with crimes, all across America.
It is not like two or three guys got caught out. Half the priests in Boston alone were relieved of duty.
So, yes, I am sure there were some priests NOT engaging in criminal behavior but the way the Catholic church hid and condoned the widespread criminal behavior, probably for hundreds of years?
C'mon. Is it really "defamation" to write the truth in a way that that captures reality in an eyes wide open manner?
As noted: The comment has been removed out of respect for your feedback.
тАЬCatholic leaders culture for centuries, has, in fact, fully supported and condoned and perhaps even encouraged тАШcriminal actsтАЩ.тАЭ So true, Mike! During the Crusades, Pope Urban II offered papal indulgences (which technically reduced or eliminated the prescribed punishment for committing sins) to any soldier who participated in these religious, тАЬjustтАЭ wars. In fact, indulgences were promised even in advance of the commission of the sins (perhaps as an incentive to recruit troops), and some indulgences were even sold! The Conquest of the Americas saw a prolongation of this Capitalist system that profiteered from the sale of religious commodities.
I somewhat disagree with your statement about bishops who didnтАЩt directly commit crimes not being responsible for the crimes the priests committed in their dioceses. The bishopтАЩs office is the Catholic HR, and there wasnтАЩt a single complaint or accusation that didnтАЩt go through their office. BISHOPS protected predatory priests by using their standing to shame a family out of reporting any incidents. BISHOPS moved those priests from parish to parish instead of defrocking sexual predators, each time giving them fresh meat to gnaw on.
Cardinal Whuerl even tried to expose the problem in the early 2000s when he was the Bishop of the Pittsburgh Diocese, but his true function was to act contrite and get NDAs from the families in exchange for money. The bishops cannot extricate themselves form a problem they perpetuated.
I understand, and join in the condemnation down the line of those bishops who hid, obfuscated and transferred the predator priests, as well as downplaying the problem.
YET, the point remains that one cannot fairly or accurately cast the condemnatory net over the entirety of the Catholic bishops.
Beyond that, the glaringly out of touch error of the bishops' position on the ERA stands on its own, without the need to color the margins with inappropriate references to the abuse scandals.
I still link the two because the power to dictate to oneтАЩs followers is the power to oppress, manipulate, and abuse. TheyтАЩre not out of touch; rather they are the rock against which the waves of progress slam. And though there is a sense of safety one feels in acquiescing to the standard, that standard hides its own sins that leaders never feel the need to disclose.
And if youтАЩre so sure of the integrity of your diocese, ask your bishop for total transparency, on any complaint made about any priests in the last 30 years. Good luck.
I like your phrase "they are the rock against which the waves of progress slam", Jane. Pithy and powerful.
Yet your seeming indictment of the entire church clerical establishment is a tad over the top, methinks.
IтАЩve seen the damage firsthand. So color me bitter.
So since I started this conversation way above, I would like to add: Yes, Daniel, not every bishop is a criminal, it's true. HOWEVER, and I say this from experience working for one, as a group they do NOT engage in "fraternal correction" as they are supposed to do. Since each bishop is in effect accountable to no one--really not even the Pope except in rare circumstances--they can get away with everything. Fraternal correction, if indeed it is ever done, has absolutely no effect. If not one bishop (and remember, bishops are the direct descendants of the apostles) has the cojones to stand up and say "this is wrong," then it's not so terribly wrong to call them all accomplices.
Daniel,
Thank you for the feedback. Comment removed.
I am not a huge fan of a culture that preys on the weak and unprotected as you can tell.
But, I recognize there might be a diversity of perspective on that culture.
Again, thanks for the polite feedback.
I would argue, however, that my post was much better English language usage than that of MTG. Hence, its effectiveness.
Gosh, Mike, you did not tell everyone to FO. This tells me that Gangrene and her staff do not have an answer, so they resort to four letter words to avoid saying anything that actually answers the reporter's question and that she and her staff know she made a fool of herself...again.
I have no doubt that Empty's staff are rather sick of having to field constant questions from the press when Empty shoots off her mouth and spills out one of her inflammatory but utterly senseless little "gems".
It should be noted that her overt disrespect for anybody or anything other than her little far-right allies and groupies has clearly rubbed off on her staff and they treat media folk like shyte. that may not be to her long-term advantage although it's obvious her little red fanboys and girls think it proves how "strong-minded and defiant of the elite establishment" she is. Ugh. Her ego would gag a gator.
LOL...gag a gator. Excellent.
Ditto here, Michele!
I suggest reading White Too Long: The Legacy of White Supremacy in American Christianity by Robert P. Jones.
Just put it on hold at the library. Surprisingly, it was there.
Mike, I support your view on the corruption and criminality of the leadership of the Catholic Church. Despite a dire shortage of priests, the hierarchy refuses to allow women priests. The egregious child abuse was atrocious enough but the revealed cover up piled suffering upon suffering of innocent people. It happened in my own back yard, bringing with it suicides, broken families and fractured lives. The main perpetrator never spent a minute in jail. Now the arrogance of Catholic bishops sending damning letters to our government leaders warning of the тАЬdamageтАЭ perpetrated by ratification of the ERA is enough to make this woman wonder how in literally GodтАЩs name does one support a religion that blatantly hurts its most vulnerable, denies acceptance of the LGBT community and fights to place women in second class citizenry. It sickens my soul that I was Catholic until age 50. The good people of this religion need to stand up to this ongoing atrocity within their leadership. Stand up for JesusтАЩs tenets of loving one another, protecting the poor and bringing fairness and justice to all mankind.
When I was 10 or 11 yrs old my mother told me that Jesus said the most important commandment was Love. Nothing more, nothing less, simply Love. Basically saying all the others could be disregarded as acting with Love encompassed them.
And the Dalai Lama says "My religion is kindness." Just acting from love and kindness is the key to living humanely with each other. No need for the trappings of religion.
I can only guess at the "sickness in your soul" as a result of your religious background. Thank you for sharing your story here.
Ally, the root of the тАЬsicknessтАЭ is the many years in my life supporting such hurtful dogma. I was taught as a child that all non Catholics were doomed to hell. Imagine a child of 6 or 7 hearing that and worrying about the non Catholic loved ones in her life. My gay sister took the time (as an adult) to ask a priest to explain the churchтАЩs position on homosexuality; she was a devoted Catholic. He said she could not be part of the Catholic Church if she remained gay. This dogma is antithetical to the teachings of the prophet upon which the religion is centered. The sadness I speak of is the unwillingness of millions of good Catholics to create/demand change in the hierarchy.
Moureen, Religion is always a Difficult subject as there are so many different points of view amongst the practitioners. My humble view is that Faith is something someone acquires thru introspection and cannot and should not be imposed. we must allow each other to find our own faith pertinent to ourselves. I find that in most religions there are common threads to be found in kindness and a sense of community.
A great saint once said тАШAll religions lead to GodтАЩ.
I suspect those that see their religion is the тАШonly wayтАЩ have lost sight of this truthтАж.
The good Catholic people with the wisdom and gumption to stand up against the church's trashing of Jesus' tenets left it decades ago.
A friend says she is тАЬa recovering catholicтАЭ
(a phrase hijacked from those recovering from an addiction of some sort. Then again Christian religious fervor - proselytizing etc - is akin to addiction.)
I would hope, Mike, that you live in an area where the wing nuts are not trying to "cleanse" the public library.
I am the President of the Friends of my library.
I wish the would be nut my best wishes.
ЁЯШК
Good for you. I was a school librarian many years ago when I could handle the censors on my own. Sorry, not putting creation in the science number.
Ditto.
I have. It was VERY interesting. In fact, I think I've recommended it here before.
How did that work the the survivors of child abuse by parish priests for years? The Catholic Church and their administration including Bishops STILL has a lot to answer for.
Indeed, it certainly does still have a lot to answer for. Part of the overall answer would be to allow women priests, of course.