Old Testament stuff. New Testament does not condemn or blame women as the generators of sin--except for Paul, that judgmental misogynist--indeed, Jesus considered Mary as one of the Apostles, although the Roman Catholic (male) hierarchy has done it's best to obscure that nugget.
Yes, I know this. Never have been a fan of Paul. Early church fathers spent too much time sitting on pillars in the desert or having fun and then renouncing the riotous life. The presence of women causes so much trouble.
Adam and Eve is an allegorical story. Look behind the literal interpretation and you may better understand the allegory and what it was meant to convey.
What a choice! We have three apple trees that are espaliers. We also have Asian pears, Barrett's, Asian persimmons, jujus, a cherry tree, a fig tree, quince and medlar. I have just finished a rendition of Gilgamesh. It was very interesting to see some OT themes in that. Before that I read some temple hymns written probably by a high priestess at Ur. Now I am looking to learn more about Sumer in particular and the ancient middle east in particular. My current read is Drive Your Plow Over the Bones and I am chuckling away at the humor although I think it is also a serious book.
The Bishops take on the ERA is undoubtedly un Christian. Yet, without dragging this on unduly, to accuse an entire group of engaging in criminal acts when the entire group did not commit them is pretty much defamation per se
Just a gentle reminder to you both that Joseph Robinette Biden is Catholic. Without putting too fine a point on it, our President is who he is because of his faith - not despite it. President Biden is, without a doubt, one of the best examples of a President acting in a truly Christian manner but also in a way that respects the separation of Church and State in my lifetime. I know you can see that as well as I do.
I grew up in a deeply Catholic household. I left the Church long ago for reasons you both understand. But I am also a daily witness to many ordinary Catholics who live in ways that are faithful, respectful and loving - including my younger brother’s work running a 150 bed treatment center for homeless alcoholics. His faith is unshakeable. Thank heavens for that.
If examples like Patrick made the daily news, your opinions of Catholics might tick up a bit, MikeS. They don’t. Please remember that Bishops don’t represent the majority of their flocks any more than Republicans opinions represent the opinions of the majority of Americans. The governing structure of the Catholic Church is terribly corrupt. The damage they have done to women and children and young men all over the world unfathomable. But don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just watch what Biden DOES, rather than what the bishops think he should do.
Your comments leave me with gratitude that I did not leave a comment sooner. Your comments were good reminders. They burrow deep into the heart and memory, overriding the deeply felt outrage fueled by those coverups. Yet the anger towards that minority, a well heeled, well oiled, self righteous army determined to impose their will on the majority, still fuels a continued resentment and distrust.
Thanks, K, and Sheila, you both said it beautifully. In a similar vein, I would add the example of former President Jimmy Carter in his approach to leading being similar to Biden's. Both are men of strong faith, but both as elected leaders of the people knew their task was to rule in the way the people elected them to lead. Their job was NOT to force a populace to believe what they believe. I think that's what the founders of this country intended: lead the people, but leave your personal faith outside of that. And then, in his post-Presidential work, Carter has really shone his true colours: commitment to helping others. You wanna be like Jesus? Then serve your fellow man, and do it quietly, under the radar, without calling attention to yourself. Jesus exhorted us to do that very thing. Help only for the sake of helping, not to show how wonderful you are. There ARE many many Christians who do just that, and they are the ones you never hear about, which is as it should be. Yes, I believe the RCC is, in its leadership, one of the most corrupt entities around, but in spite of that, there are many of its members who follow Christ's example anyway. Personally, I could never be Catholic myself because of its tenets--so I'm Anglican: all of the theatrical pageantry, none of the guilt!--but I have many Catholic friends who I know ARE good Christians and who are not supportive of much of their leadership hierarchy. In that regard I feel kinda sorry for them (actually, sometimes the leaders in my denomination aren't perfect either...), but we carry on anyway.
By that I do not mean that the majority of religious believers in this Country are not Christians, as they are. Rather, in spite of the gratingly annoying noise emanating from the Hobby Lobbyists, the US of A was founded on political principles derived from, for the most part, the Enlightenment. On the subject of religion, Messrs. Locke, Montesquieu, Diderot, etc. were skeptical, to say the least.
But that does not mean that principles whose origins are found in the Christian Bible, Catholic or Protestant, and in various church teachings have no place in politics. The trouble comes in when those who are, as I see it, mostly faux religious, misusing their claimed Christianity as a tribal weapon of exclusion, the exact opposite of the teachings of the Prince of Peace.
It's sad we're losing Jimmy Carter soon. He has always been a good human being who lived his beliefs. (It's also appalling what Regan did to sabotage Jimmy's efforts to end the Iran Hostage situation for his own political gain. (and so many other bad things Reagan did that we're still having to deal with.)
This is why I refuse to paint every believer with the same brush. Yes, some are hypocrites, but a lot of people are motivated by their faith to become active in helping others as you, Sheila, point out with your brother.
Sheila, thank you for reminding us that there ARE good Catholics and, by extension, good Christians. Indeed, Biden is an excellent example! I think that the criticisms expressed here chastise the institutionalized, organized Catholic Church leadership that speaks on behalf of all Catholics and endorses propositions that politicize the religion and in essence are unchristian.
Sadly, the hierarchy is sort of the PR for their churches and they end up getting the lion's share of the publicity. Having that sort of a "bully pulpit" seems to lead them to embracing more of an "agenda", and then trying to push church dogma. Power does corrupt, even ecclesiastical power.
I am not arguing that it was or was not defamation.
However, I would say that the overall Catholic leadership culture, possibly for centuries, has, in fact, fully supported and condoned and perhaps even encouraged "criminal acts" given the massive number of priests and Bishops that have been removed, and charged with crimes, all across America.
It is not like two or three guys got caught out. Half the priests in Boston alone were relieved of duty.
So, yes, I am sure there were some priests NOT engaging in criminal behavior but the way the Catholic church hid and condoned the widespread criminal behavior, probably for hundreds of years?
C'mon. Is it really "defamation" to write the truth in a way that that captures reality in an eyes wide open manner?
As noted: The comment has been removed out of respect for your feedback.
“Catholic leaders culture for centuries, has, in fact, fully supported and condoned and perhaps even encouraged ‘criminal acts’.” So true, Mike! During the Crusades, Pope Urban II offered papal indulgences (which technically reduced or eliminated the prescribed punishment for committing sins) to any soldier who participated in these religious, “just” wars. In fact, indulgences were promised even in advance of the commission of the sins (perhaps as an incentive to recruit troops), and some indulgences were even sold! The Conquest of the Americas saw a prolongation of this Capitalist system that profiteered from the sale of religious commodities.
I somewhat disagree with your statement about bishops who didn’t directly commit crimes not being responsible for the crimes the priests committed in their dioceses. The bishop’s office is the Catholic HR, and there wasn’t a single complaint or accusation that didn’t go through their office. BISHOPS protected predatory priests by using their standing to shame a family out of reporting any incidents. BISHOPS moved those priests from parish to parish instead of defrocking sexual predators, each time giving them fresh meat to gnaw on.
Cardinal Whuerl even tried to expose the problem in the early 2000s when he was the Bishop of the Pittsburgh Diocese, but his true function was to act contrite and get NDAs from the families in exchange for money. The bishops cannot extricate themselves form a problem they perpetuated.
I understand, and join in the condemnation down the line of those bishops who hid, obfuscated and transferred the predator priests, as well as downplaying the problem.
YET, the point remains that one cannot fairly or accurately cast the condemnatory net over the entirety of the Catholic bishops.
Beyond that, the glaringly out of touch error of the bishops' position on the ERA stands on its own, without the need to color the margins with inappropriate references to the abuse scandals.
I still link the two because the power to dictate to one’s followers is the power to oppress, manipulate, and abuse. They’re not out of touch; rather they are the rock against which the waves of progress slam. And though there is a sense of safety one feels in acquiescing to the standard, that standard hides its own sins that leaders never feel the need to disclose.
And if you’re so sure of the integrity of your diocese, ask your bishop for total transparency, on any complaint made about any priests in the last 30 years. Good luck.
So since I started this conversation way above, I would like to add: Yes, Daniel, not every bishop is a criminal, it's true. HOWEVER, and I say this from experience working for one, as a group they do NOT engage in "fraternal correction" as they are supposed to do. Since each bishop is in effect accountable to no one--really not even the Pope except in rare circumstances--they can get away with everything. Fraternal correction, if indeed it is ever done, has absolutely no effect. If not one bishop (and remember, bishops are the direct descendants of the apostles) has the cojones to stand up and say "this is wrong," then it's not so terribly wrong to call them all accomplices.
Daniel, it might be hyperbolic but it’s not defamatory. The bishops’ behavior is un-Christian at a minimum.
It is actually very "Christian." Eve is the cause of all sin in the world.
Old Testament stuff. New Testament does not condemn or blame women as the generators of sin--except for Paul, that judgmental misogynist--indeed, Jesus considered Mary as one of the Apostles, although the Roman Catholic (male) hierarchy has done it's best to obscure that nugget.
Yes, I know this. Never have been a fan of Paul. Early church fathers spent too much time sitting on pillars in the desert or having fun and then renouncing the riotous life. The presence of women causes so much trouble.
Michelle Paul, who initially had opposed Jesus, later was marketing the Jesus movement to non-Jews. He relied heavily on women in this effort.
Still not a fan, but nice to know. Thanks. I can understand how women would be attracted.
Adam and Eve is an allegorical story. Look behind the literal interpretation and you may better understand the allegory and what it was meant to convey.
George The other version of creation in the Old Testament did not mention Adam and Eve. How could this be the ‘literal’ word of God?
Of course the ‘Book of Moses’ was written about 400 years after Moses’ death, so it might not be totally accurate.
I understand that. And I understand the allegory.
Everything was paradise until we knew there were gender differences and we had knowledge of you know what.
Michele I grew up on a property with 30 apple trees. Whatever the theological implications, I found the apples damned good.
What a choice! We have three apple trees that are espaliers. We also have Asian pears, Barrett's, Asian persimmons, jujus, a cherry tree, a fig tree, quince and medlar. I have just finished a rendition of Gilgamesh. It was very interesting to see some OT themes in that. Before that I read some temple hymns written probably by a high priestess at Ur. Now I am looking to learn more about Sumer in particular and the ancient middle east in particular. My current read is Drive Your Plow Over the Bones and I am chuckling away at the humor although I think it is also a serious book.
Hi Mike,
The Bishops take on the ERA is undoubtedly un Christian. Yet, without dragging this on unduly, to accuse an entire group of engaging in criminal acts when the entire group did not commit them is pretty much defamation per se
Just a gentle reminder to you both that Joseph Robinette Biden is Catholic. Without putting too fine a point on it, our President is who he is because of his faith - not despite it. President Biden is, without a doubt, one of the best examples of a President acting in a truly Christian manner but also in a way that respects the separation of Church and State in my lifetime. I know you can see that as well as I do.
I grew up in a deeply Catholic household. I left the Church long ago for reasons you both understand. But I am also a daily witness to many ordinary Catholics who live in ways that are faithful, respectful and loving - including my younger brother’s work running a 150 bed treatment center for homeless alcoholics. His faith is unshakeable. Thank heavens for that.
If examples like Patrick made the daily news, your opinions of Catholics might tick up a bit, MikeS. They don’t. Please remember that Bishops don’t represent the majority of their flocks any more than Republicans opinions represent the opinions of the majority of Americans. The governing structure of the Catholic Church is terribly corrupt. The damage they have done to women and children and young men all over the world unfathomable. But don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just watch what Biden DOES, rather than what the bishops think he should do.
Your comments leave me with gratitude that I did not leave a comment sooner. Your comments were good reminders. They burrow deep into the heart and memory, overriding the deeply felt outrage fueled by those coverups. Yet the anger towards that minority, a well heeled, well oiled, self righteous army determined to impose their will on the majority, still fuels a continued resentment and distrust.
Thank you for your candor, K, and for your kind reply. Your description of those who continue to fuel resentment and distrust is most well put
"including my younger brother’s work running a 150 bed treatment center for homeless alcoholics. "
Sounds like a good hearted, generous and hard working brother to me Sheila.
The absolute best brother - to all he encounters. Thanks, Mike.
Thanks, K, and Sheila, you both said it beautifully. In a similar vein, I would add the example of former President Jimmy Carter in his approach to leading being similar to Biden's. Both are men of strong faith, but both as elected leaders of the people knew their task was to rule in the way the people elected them to lead. Their job was NOT to force a populace to believe what they believe. I think that's what the founders of this country intended: lead the people, but leave your personal faith outside of that. And then, in his post-Presidential work, Carter has really shone his true colours: commitment to helping others. You wanna be like Jesus? Then serve your fellow man, and do it quietly, under the radar, without calling attention to yourself. Jesus exhorted us to do that very thing. Help only for the sake of helping, not to show how wonderful you are. There ARE many many Christians who do just that, and they are the ones you never hear about, which is as it should be. Yes, I believe the RCC is, in its leadership, one of the most corrupt entities around, but in spite of that, there are many of its members who follow Christ's example anyway. Personally, I could never be Catholic myself because of its tenets--so I'm Anglican: all of the theatrical pageantry, none of the guilt!--but I have many Catholic friends who I know ARE good Christians and who are not supportive of much of their leadership hierarchy. In that regard I feel kinda sorry for them (actually, sometimes the leaders in my denomination aren't perfect either...), but we carry on anyway.
Carry on indeed! Good call, Bruce.
We are not a Christian Nation.
By that I do not mean that the majority of religious believers in this Country are not Christians, as they are. Rather, in spite of the gratingly annoying noise emanating from the Hobby Lobbyists, the US of A was founded on political principles derived from, for the most part, the Enlightenment. On the subject of religion, Messrs. Locke, Montesquieu, Diderot, etc. were skeptical, to say the least.
But that does not mean that principles whose origins are found in the Christian Bible, Catholic or Protestant, and in various church teachings have no place in politics. The trouble comes in when those who are, as I see it, mostly faux religious, misusing their claimed Christianity as a tribal weapon of exclusion, the exact opposite of the teachings of the Prince of Peace.
AMEN ! Daniel !
It's sad we're losing Jimmy Carter soon. He has always been a good human being who lived his beliefs. (It's also appalling what Regan did to sabotage Jimmy's efforts to end the Iran Hostage situation for his own political gain. (and so many other bad things Reagan did that we're still having to deal with.)
This is why I refuse to paint every believer with the same brush. Yes, some are hypocrites, but a lot of people are motivated by their faith to become active in helping others as you, Sheila, point out with your brother.
That was a most lovely post, Sheila. I thank you for your clarity, and both you and your brother for the love you give.
Shiela, thanks so much for this-you spoke my heart. Thank you.
Thank you, Shelia. You are an inspiration and now I learn of your brother,Patrick.Great genes think alike:)
I am watching, with awe, what President Biden does as opposed to what my “devout” Florida Governor does…
I texted Patrick last night with your “Great genes think alike” quote. All I got back was a laugh emoji.
Wonderful person that he is, he’s still just my snarky, smart-ass little brother. 🤣
Sheila, thank you for reminding us that there ARE good Catholics and, by extension, good Christians. Indeed, Biden is an excellent example! I think that the criticisms expressed here chastise the institutionalized, organized Catholic Church leadership that speaks on behalf of all Catholics and endorses propositions that politicize the religion and in essence are unchristian.
Nancy Pelosi is also Catholic.
I think the negativity as to do with the church hierarchy and how it behaves rather than individual Catholics.
Sadly, the hierarchy is sort of the PR for their churches and they end up getting the lion's share of the publicity. Having that sort of a "bully pulpit" seems to lead them to embracing more of an "agenda", and then trying to push church dogma. Power does corrupt, even ecclesiastical power.
Sheila, very well expressed. Please see my comment at the end of this thread.
Daniel,
I am not arguing that it was or was not defamation.
However, I would say that the overall Catholic leadership culture, possibly for centuries, has, in fact, fully supported and condoned and perhaps even encouraged "criminal acts" given the massive number of priests and Bishops that have been removed, and charged with crimes, all across America.
It is not like two or three guys got caught out. Half the priests in Boston alone were relieved of duty.
So, yes, I am sure there were some priests NOT engaging in criminal behavior but the way the Catholic church hid and condoned the widespread criminal behavior, probably for hundreds of years?
C'mon. Is it really "defamation" to write the truth in a way that that captures reality in an eyes wide open manner?
As noted: The comment has been removed out of respect for your feedback.
“Catholic leaders culture for centuries, has, in fact, fully supported and condoned and perhaps even encouraged ‘criminal acts’.” So true, Mike! During the Crusades, Pope Urban II offered papal indulgences (which technically reduced or eliminated the prescribed punishment for committing sins) to any soldier who participated in these religious, “just” wars. In fact, indulgences were promised even in advance of the commission of the sins (perhaps as an incentive to recruit troops), and some indulgences were even sold! The Conquest of the Americas saw a prolongation of this Capitalist system that profiteered from the sale of religious commodities.
I somewhat disagree with your statement about bishops who didn’t directly commit crimes not being responsible for the crimes the priests committed in their dioceses. The bishop’s office is the Catholic HR, and there wasn’t a single complaint or accusation that didn’t go through their office. BISHOPS protected predatory priests by using their standing to shame a family out of reporting any incidents. BISHOPS moved those priests from parish to parish instead of defrocking sexual predators, each time giving them fresh meat to gnaw on.
Cardinal Whuerl even tried to expose the problem in the early 2000s when he was the Bishop of the Pittsburgh Diocese, but his true function was to act contrite and get NDAs from the families in exchange for money. The bishops cannot extricate themselves form a problem they perpetuated.
I understand, and join in the condemnation down the line of those bishops who hid, obfuscated and transferred the predator priests, as well as downplaying the problem.
YET, the point remains that one cannot fairly or accurately cast the condemnatory net over the entirety of the Catholic bishops.
Beyond that, the glaringly out of touch error of the bishops' position on the ERA stands on its own, without the need to color the margins with inappropriate references to the abuse scandals.
I still link the two because the power to dictate to one’s followers is the power to oppress, manipulate, and abuse. They’re not out of touch; rather they are the rock against which the waves of progress slam. And though there is a sense of safety one feels in acquiescing to the standard, that standard hides its own sins that leaders never feel the need to disclose.
And if you’re so sure of the integrity of your diocese, ask your bishop for total transparency, on any complaint made about any priests in the last 30 years. Good luck.
I like your phrase "they are the rock against which the waves of progress slam", Jane. Pithy and powerful.
Yet your seeming indictment of the entire church clerical establishment is a tad over the top, methinks.
I’ve seen the damage firsthand. So color me bitter.
So since I started this conversation way above, I would like to add: Yes, Daniel, not every bishop is a criminal, it's true. HOWEVER, and I say this from experience working for one, as a group they do NOT engage in "fraternal correction" as they are supposed to do. Since each bishop is in effect accountable to no one--really not even the Pope except in rare circumstances--they can get away with everything. Fraternal correction, if indeed it is ever done, has absolutely no effect. If not one bishop (and remember, bishops are the direct descendants of the apostles) has the cojones to stand up and say "this is wrong," then it's not so terribly wrong to call them all accomplices.