I agree with you that what is going on in Gaza is horrific. But it is on the Israeli state and the Israelis. Israel is a sovereign nation. They have made their choice. Biden and our state officials are working behind the scenes to influence, but in the end it is up to the Israeli people.
I agree with you that what is going on in Gaza is horrific. But it is on the Israeli state and the Israelis. Israel is a sovereign nation. They have made their choice. Biden and our state officials are working behind the scenes to influence, but in the end it is up to the Israeli people.
Israel kicked Netanyahu to the curb just like we did chump. He cheated his way back in to avoid prosecution, just like chump is trying to do. If he succeeds, I won’t support him. The Israelis are trying to throw him out. As we are trying to overcome Trumpism. Despots don’t go willingly, if at all. Big picture people
But we are funding it and shipping arms, and refused to call for a ceasefire. They have said they couldn't do it without us. Whether or not that is true, our financial and moral support for the slaughter of Palestinians is abhorrent to me and many others. The Palestinians have been absolutely mistreated since 1948. Israeli leaders have said they want them killed or expelled. Gaza is a tiny piece of the shore. Israel has all the rest. The West Bank, not even connected to Gaza, is increasingly populated with illegal settlements of violent, hate-filled Americans. It's shocking to learn just how badly and unfairly the Palestinians were treated from the very start. Forced off their land and from their homes with no compensation?!! Netanyahu himself lives in a valuable home taken/stolen from a Palestinian family. It's all been hidden with layers of propaganda, the power of money, the threat of antisemitism, and our sympathy for the horrific Holocaust, but now I and others can see the truth. Gaza has been and is occupied by an extremely hostile state and they have the right to fight back against their oppressors.
Lisa, yesterday Biden let slip that he is working behind the scenes for a peaceful solution. There is only so much he can do; he and Blinken are working to keep the tinderbox of Iran/Hezbollah/Isis from catching the whole region on fire.
Yeah, they should have called for a ceasefire weeks ago. They enabled this and I hope it doesn't grow larger. I truly question their judgment and morals that they have backed vile Netanyahu in his and his fellow leaders' murderous terror on Gaza. They talk about sending the Palestinians to Congo! I would never vote for Biden again if it weren't absolutely critical to stop the insane GOP. Vote Blue no matter who.
Something that gives me pause - and should give others pause - is this: while the Senate is the body actually entrusted with ratifying treaties, only 4 out of 100 senators have publicly and explicitly expressed ceasefire support, and those 4 (Durbin, Merkeley, Warren, Welch) expressed lengthening the November temporary ceasefire if conditions were met (which were not). So there is literally ZERO support at the necessary level of the U.S. government for an immediate ceasefire at this time.
Every person with a heart will have a horrible reaction to seeing what is happening in Gaza, including me. But if literally NO ONE at the necessary level of government is supporting a given position - not even Bernie Freaking Sanders - one could conclude that such a position is somewhere between quite fringe and downright impossible
No, I didn't. Bernie has been uncharacteristically nuanced in his stance, and caught flak from many supporters for refusing to publicly call for an immediate cease fire. There have been many articles about it.
Like I said, everyone has the right to an opinion and to express it peacefully. But if Bernie, of all people, thinks your stance is too unrealistic and lefty... hoo boy!
Lisa, they did call for a ceasefire—and the Israeli government ignored them, saying that they need to destroy the group (Hamas) that is calling for killing all Jews, whatever collateral damage that action causes. Just like “bomb the Mexican drug labs” proposed by a past president to get support, war against an enemy is a relatively easy action to distract a populace from a corrupt leader and disrupt a recall action.
I agree that Netanyahu has a motive to stay out of jail, in addition his other motives. I don't remember them ever actually calling for a ceasefire. They voted no on the UN resolution. Biden has said there should be no daylight between the US and Israel about anything. And they could shut off funds and arms if they chose, but Biden and Blinken are all in.
If they back out, who will be left to call for a ceasefire? Biden said no light when it comes to genocide of Jews. The arms are to replenish the iron dome to protect the Israeli people. The carrier fleets are to protect shipping in the Red Sea.
Ummm, he’s not allowed to go over Congress’s head. If he could actually do that, he’d be continuing to fund Ukraine’s efforts against Putin, defying the House of Reps, right?
How much are we really funding? Does anyone know? Prior to Oct 7, Israel had a well trained and well armed military. I’m not sure what if anything we have sent them in military aid since then. The Republicans have refused aid to Israel and to Ukraine until the southern border is sorted out. (A conundrum that ranks about 4th in difficulty just after Climate Change, USA healthcare system, and peace in the Middle East.). So don’t hold your breath about the Republicans ponying up any more funds till after the election.
The number of casualties is supplied by the Gaza Health Ministry, aka Hamas. I reserve judgement until that number is independently confirmed by a neutral party, like the U.N.
Sky, you’re not sure what we have sent them since 10/7 because you are siloed in your media input. Genocide Joe and Butcher Blinken have sent two separate shipments of weaponry, mostly consisting of artillery and tank shells, without Congressional authority, mind you, and that’s over and above our regular four-billion military weaponry outlay, consisting of the bunker-busting bombs that are blowing Palestinian children to bits, and those don’t include the children who are having limbs amputated without anesthesia, who, if they live, will have an immediate future of starvation and disease. It is unspeakable horror, Biden is complicit, as he is in the horror of Ukraine, and unlike Lisa, I wouldn’t vote for a genocide enabler for all the tea in China.
I would never vote for a grifting asshole like Trump, so put that to rest. Those crocodile tears Biden shed about Gaza, after his speech was interrupted by protest in the church yesterday, which Heather notedly failed to mention, were repulsive in their insincerity.
I do not have the time to re-educate you. But time and time again it has been the PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY AND THE PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE REFUSED TO ACCEPT ANY PEACE OR TWO STATE DEAL.
They should have been given a big beautiful state with lots of coastline and compensation for loss of homes and land and ancient olive groves back in 1948. What the hell were the British thinking? 750,000 violently forced off their land and future Israelis more than happy to take what wasn't theirs. This is the bottom; the rest is excuses and propaganda. We all need a re-education to see the truth. That explains the heavy censorship going on everywhere on behalf of Israel. No need to censor if there's nothing to hide.
Lisa, with all due respect, I suggest that you might spend some time reading about the history of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. It’s one of the most complex and intractable problems of our time, and requires an understanding of the past to understand the present. Some of what you say is true - Netanyahu is a pretty bad guy - but painting all Israelis with his brush is very far from what all Israelis believe. Remember, just a few months ago, demonstrations against his plans for the judiciary with hundreds of thousands of people, that went on for months?
Biden has worked with a lot of delicacy to prevent this conflict from spreading. He has pushed hard for a moderation of Israeli actions. But you are beyond naive if you think that any nation would allow what Hamas did to go unanswered. Hamas itself bears responsibility for the initiation of this conflict; for using its own citizens as human shields; and for continuing to hold hostages. Try to imagine for a minute what three months of captivity has been like for them, especially for the women. Try to imagine that some of those women are likely pregnant now. Hamas was offered ceasefire contingent on the release of hostages. They stopped releasing hostages, so the ceasefire ended. This is on them. I’m not talking about partition or about the treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank, I’m talking about today’s conflict. Put the blame where it is due, and it is not due to Biden.
Jenny, Iran is well established as a sponsor of terrorism in the Middle East. Among the entities it supports are Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad. The mission of those entities is to erase Israel from the face of the earth. In fact, much of our support for Israel is because it provides a democratic counterweight to Iran’s power in the Middle East.
I would add that the fact that you didn’t know this underlines my advice that readers educate themselves on the history of the region before making judgements about who to blame for this most recent conflict.
Jenny, I’m well aware of that, and do not endorse it. I’m not an apologist for Israel and all it does. I’m simply suggesting that this is an incredibly complicated and fraught situation, with many historical echoes that are essential to understanding today. I don’t pretend to understand all the nuance myself. But a blanket condemnation of Israel for all the region’s problems, and the Palestinian’s problems themselves, is just ignorant. Furthermore, the spread of condemnation of Israel morphing into condemnation and harassment of Jews is revolting. But it also confirms the necessity of an Israel. The world seems to have forgotten the horrors of the holocaust, and that is unacceptable.
Massively disproportionate response is a war crime, as is indiscriminate bombing, which even Biden mentioned. I don't blame all Israelis, but Netanyahu and fellow extremists continue to be elected. How can you truthfully say that the Palestinians were ever treated fairly. No one in this country has been forced off their land and out of their homes since our horrific genocide of the Native Americans. It isn't done, except during wars of aggression or when colonizers do it, in the name of civilizing the nonwhite savages. (Kidnapping nonwhite people from their homes to bring them here to work for free is a variation on the theme.)
Lisa, in fact, you did blame all Israelis in your original comment.
I have not said that Palestinians have been treated fairly; in fact, I think they are mistreated pawns in a larger struggle. But the mistreatment of Palestinians has not all been from the Israelis. Israel is, in fact, 20% Arab. The Palestinians have been offered a two state solution, more than once, which they themselves rejected. And they rejected it because they do not believe the state of Israel has the right to exist. The stated aim of Hamas is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. The betrayal of the Palestinian people has been perpetrated by their own leaders, not only in the Palestinian Territories but also in neighboring countries, which have maintained refugee camps for generations rather than integrating refugees, because the refugees are politically useful. I’ve been to a Palestinian refugee camp; I know whereof I speak.
The Israelis are as much the indigenous people of that land as the Palestinians are, despite their own years of diaspora. The hubris of Great Britain in its establishment of boundaries post WW1 in the Middle East is responsible for much of today’s conflict, ignoring as it did tribal boundaries and loyalties and establishing Hashemite kingdoms throughout the region.
I think the behavior of Israeli settlers is reprehensible. I think indiscriminate bombing is horrific. But Hamas itself is responsible for this, first, by its original attack, second, by violating terms of ceasefire, and third, by continuing to hold hostages. No one is blame-free here.
Again, I suggest that you do a lot more reading of the region’s history before you harden your views.
I'm sorry if I blamed all Israelis. I know the arguments, and I always try to learn more. I read that other locations were considered for Israel. I don't think I will ever agree with 2000 year old claims to land ownership. My understanding is that they came in and violently forced people out of their homes and off their land, including instances of rape and a massacre. I would be seething with rage if that happened to my family.
Well, Lisa, you did talk about colonizers, implying that that’s what the Israelis are. It’s hard to be a colonizer in your indigenous land. I am NOT saying that what happened to the Palestinians was fair, or right. I’m only saying that it wasn’t colonization.
I don’t disagree that partition was a mess. It was. And it was vastly unfair. But please do remember that the Jews needed, and still need, a safe haven. They themselves were victims of violent forcing out of their lands, including out of Arab countries after 1948. One might hope that they, of all people, might be more empathetic, but to them it’s existential.
Do you know why Judaism is matriarchal? That is, one is considered a Jew if one’s mother is a Jew. It’s because of generations of systemic rape. And please, don’t ever forget the holocaust and our worldwide guilt for that.
Obviously, the Palestinians got the short end of the world’s stick. But that did happen, so now what? That is the intractable problem. But how do the Israelis negotiate with a group who will only accept Israel’s utter annihilation?
Call it a proxy colony of the US and UK. There should never have had to be unfair offers of a two state solution. As I said, an at least equal state in terms of resources, including compensation, would have made a huge difference. Israel has done the opposite, indoctrinating its young people to hate Palestinians. They have arrogantly and brutally shown zero empathy for the Palestinians. The abuse and murder of them by the IDF has gotten worse and worse and this has also turned people against them. I know many Jews who live perfectly happily here in California; they don't need Israel. Much, not all of the supposed acts of antisemitism include people who dare to criticize Israel. Luckily for Israel, they are backed by literally almost everyone in the US government as well as most Jewish boomers. So they're going to get their way, expelling all Palestinians from tiny Gaza, which has natural gas, and from the West Bank by way of murderous settlers taking their homes. What used to be their sliver of land has been made unliveable for those who haven't been murdered. Thousands of children have lost limbs, many amputated without anesthesia. Every war crime imaginable, all excused because of Hamas, supported originally by Netanyahu to avoid a two state solution. He was duly elected. The idea that "God" chose them to take over the Holy Lands fuels their arrogance and is nothing more than a myth. I don't have to fall in line and you don't have to worry. Israel will keep getting many billions worth of weapons and aid, while many of our citizens live in extreme poverty without healthcare or enough food. You can call me antisemitic. I know I'm not. I have grieved for the victims of the Holocaust many times, as have all sane and loving people. I love and admire from near and afar countless Jewish people . I admire immensely all of the Jews with compassion in their hearts who dare to defy the immense pressure, defamation and misinformation laid on them in this country to see no, speak no, hear no criticism of mighty Israel. The whole MSM censors and distorts information about the situation. Even the attack by Hamas, which was horrific and atrocious from a humanitarian perspective, has been subject to lies and secrecy and half were killed by the IDF. Think of it as more like a slave rebellion by a people long oppressed and terribly abused. Think of it as Jews rising up against the Nazis. They were all helplessly overpowered..
On the other hand: The Palestinian National Authority (PA or PNA; Arabic: السلطة الوطنية الفلسطينية as-Sulṭa al-Waṭanīya al-Filasṭīnīya), commonly known as the Palestinian Authority and officially the State of Palestine, is the Fatah-controlled government body that exercises partial civil control over West Bank areas "A" and "B" as a consequence of the 1993–1995 Oslo Accords. The Palestinian Authority controlled the Gaza Strip prior to the Palestinian elections of 2006 and the subsequent Gaza conflict between the Fatah and Hamas parties, when it lost control to Hamas; the PA continues to claim the Gaza Strip, although Hamas exercises de facto control. Since January 2013, the Palestinian Authority has used the name "State of Palestine" on official documents, although the United Nations continues to recognize the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) as the "representative of the Palestinian people". Wikipedia
The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO; Arabic: منظمة التحرير الفلسطينية Munaẓẓamat at-Taḥrīr al-Filasṭīniyyah) is a Palestinian nationalist coalition that is internationally recognized as the official representative of the Palestinian people. Founded in 1964, it initially sought to establish an Arab state over the entire territory of the former Mandatory Palestine, advocating the elimination of the State of Israel. However, in 1993, the PLO recognized Israeli sovereignty with the Oslo I Accord, and now only seeks Arab statehood in the Palestinian territories (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) that have been militarily occupied by Israel since the 1967 Arab–Israeli War.
Lisa, I hear what you are saying. I agree with you 100%. It would be morally right to cut off all aid to Israel. However, I think nuclear-powered Israel would be desperate if we were to do so. A dramatic gesture like that would make our country vulnerable (more vulnerable than it already is). Governments need to keep their citizens safe. I think we would not be safe if we backed Israel into a corner. I think the Biden Administration is pushing for Israel to back down. On the other hand we and other countries built this Frankenstein. Years of colonization by Western powers was the model upon which Israel was built. A malignant destructive model. Now what? It is a trip-wire situation. It is awful and heart-breaking. And the hatred and blood lust are not only happening in Israel and Ukraine but in many other places around the world including our own U.S. with our gun violence and violence directed at communities that do not fit the old white man’s burden model--just let me be in charge and I’ll show you lesser beings how it’s done. What needs to change to move humanity forward and away from this destructive mindset? I think we need to start changing minds locally. Individual municipalities need to move away from militarization of their own police forces for example. Too many guns. Too much violence. Too too many of our fellow citizens in prison. We need to work on those problems close to home. Find a new model, one not based on exploitation and domination. Grass roots pushing for change. Meanwhile our national diplomats can hopefully keep us from total destruction while we work locally to change mindsets. Having said all this I am worried we are actually too late--things too far gone and Frankenstein on the loose--to address all the cruelty baked into all our systems. We may be staring down the path to a violent destruction rather than constructive fixes to the model we have been following for centuries.
I do agree with what you have perfectly stated. I do believe it's far too late. Humans in power have continued to show their greed and cruelty as has always been the case, with rare exceptions. And exactly because of greed and lack of empathy, our planet and its nonhuman inhabitants are damaged beyond repair. The powers that be aren't willing to give up their filthy billions to save it in time. Smart enough to ruin it, but not smart or caring enough to save it.
Netanyahu is a criminal. He had a struggle winning his position, as Israel's leader....and yet he did and here we are. I am in agreement with you.
Netanyahu is using us. We need to get out of this situation. We are creating more pain, more hatred by supporting Israel's slaughter and that is what it is.
Gaza belongs to the Palestinian people. Netanyahu has told us who he is and what he is planning for Gaza.....how many times does he have to repeat himself?
Better still, IF WE COULD ALL live together and worship or not as we choose. Faith should be a personal choice....not some forced word stamped on someones forehead in order to stay alive...in order to not lose their home or the lives of their families.
I must trust there are talks going on...I must trust in negotiations but we cannot bring back the lives lost. I do not believe President Biden or Blinken approve. I do trust that they are working to calm this conflict. But currently Netanyahu has us where he wants us. This is a highly sensitive situation. Other countries are watching...our enemies probably helped to "set this up".....to weaken us and to involve us in as many conflicts as possible....to divide our country and to attack our President. It is a wicked web!!!!
Is it possible that Netanyahu set this up? The protective dome was not completely functioning at the time the hostages were taken....there are other questions.
We each should be able to worship as we choose and not condemned. Of course with our choices there should be no killing one another!!!!
Israel made the choice to defend her right to exist. Biden is not Hamas. Hamas crossed the border into Israel on a Sabbath morning to begin terrorizing the sleeping citizens of a sovereign nation. Hamas is funded by Iran (a proxy for Putin) and the Arab states. Think of it this way: you are asleep in your home in NYC. You wake up to screaming New Jerseyites who burn, rape, murder you and all your neighbors because they hate New Jersey.
I see that. However, Israel is making a choice to bomb Gaza back to the Stone Age. And there are a lot of people caught up in it who did not instigate or even support the Oct 7 attack. But they do now. Israel will succeed in turning Gaza into a wasteland and dispersing the former Gaza’s throughout the world, those that survive the onslaught. Whatever sympathy Israel had is now gone for most citizens of the world. Israelis had a choice and they chose genocide.
To understand the sophistication of the Hamas terrorist attacks on Israel on October 7, check out the above link. This was a huge step up from the years of suicide bombings, rocket attacks and kidnappings suffered by Israel.
(The Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) is a nonprofit, nonpartisan 501(c)(3) organization located in Washington, DC).
If you have the idea that the Qassam Brigades are a small band of freedom fighters, they are definitely not.
Frankly, I think many do know. They just think Israel deserved it. I know it is disturbing to say, and I am open to being challenged and hope to be proven wrong. What I see is that so many have fully internalized the Israel-as-land-stealing-oppressor tropes and propaganda that any attack on Israel is viewed in the same way as an abused child killing their abusive parent, times a million. They will pay lip service ("I don't condone the murders at all..."), but then openly place their sympathy with the perpetrator ("...but this is what happens when you make innocent people desperate.") The extra special thing folks are doing with Israel is pre-emptively blaming it for any future violence ("this brutality will just lead to more youth joining the terrorists"), while also expecting unilateral disarmament with no plan in place ("Cease fire now!").
A lot of people just really, really, really don't like Israel, and see their chance to unload those sentiments publicly.
To restate the obvious, opposing Israeli government policies is not immediately equivalent to being anti-semetic.
But I'm not seeing a whole heck of a lot of "No military support until more transparency from IDF. International cooperation must result in a two state solution, once and for all."
What I am seeing a whole heapin' bunch of is: "Israel is a crimminal oppressor who is slaughtering innocents to fulfill their takeover of rightful Arab land, and those who control money and media have brainwashed us to look away."
Essentially: Israel shouldn't exist, is terrible at the root, and has brought violence on itself. Which is a harshness of sentiment I can't recall ever being expressed toward another nation, and considering we are talking about the ONLY majority-Jewish country on Earth... combined with all the obvious stereotypes about Jews as a whole... Well, it SOUNDS pretty freaking anti-Semetic. If anyone can't even acknowledge it might sound that way then I can't help them.
I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. One thought that keeps recurring is that the response of American POC to Gaza might to some degree reflect the depth of their frustration with their own treatment here, but it’s safer for them to rail against Israel than against our own failures. I can’t say that that is a wrong way to feel, even if I think the fury against Israel is misplaced and reflective of a visceral, senseless anti-semitism. Apartheid is ugly, no matter where we find it.
Let's just take religion out of it.....humans murdering humans for power and control with no boundaries...only selfish control....like two people fighting until both are dead.
No matter the names or descriptions of beliefs....it is simple hatred and greed and power to control.....no one is ever happy or satisfied.
This is another message that the Biden people need to shout. Biden is between a rock & a hard place with his sending weapon to the current Israeli gov . How do u support Israel right as a nation but not its government. The US has been there too
Correct. These difficult-to-impossible choices, where there is no true I-can-live-with-that option, is the downside to holding that most powerful of positions. Armchair analysts and keyboard warriors can praise you or damn you, but they will never have to actually give the order knowing the full scope of what it may entail one way or the other.
It is very conflicting for me, because the US has always stood with Israel, even though I haven’t always understood why. This war is over 2,000 years old!!!! However, I am not sure that is the right thing to do anymore. BUT these actions and genocide belong to the Israelis alone. It does not rest on the shoulders of the US. I do trust that the administration is trying to move the Israelis in a different direction, but there does not seem to be any inclination to move from their position.
It is my personal and very uninformed opinion that there is tremendous national guilt over the treatment of Jews by Hitler in WWII and of our refusal to take refugees from there.
I also have the personal and very uninformed opinion that, while there have been conflicts in this region since recorded history (and before, I am certain), the real issue now is that first Britain, then the US has "decided what's best" in the Middle East (with an eye towards petroleum reserves) since the Balfour Declaration in 1917.
Joint Resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States
I agree with you that what is going on in Gaza is horrific. But it is on the Israeli state and the Israelis. Israel is a sovereign nation. They have made their choice. Biden and our state officials are working behind the scenes to influence, but in the end it is up to the Israeli people.
Israel kicked Netanyahu to the curb just like we did chump. He cheated his way back in to avoid prosecution, just like chump is trying to do. If he succeeds, I won’t support him. The Israelis are trying to throw him out. As we are trying to overcome Trumpism. Despots don’t go willingly, if at all. Big picture people
U said this so much better than my attempt.
Jeri, THANK YOU!!!
But we are funding it and shipping arms, and refused to call for a ceasefire. They have said they couldn't do it without us. Whether or not that is true, our financial and moral support for the slaughter of Palestinians is abhorrent to me and many others. The Palestinians have been absolutely mistreated since 1948. Israeli leaders have said they want them killed or expelled. Gaza is a tiny piece of the shore. Israel has all the rest. The West Bank, not even connected to Gaza, is increasingly populated with illegal settlements of violent, hate-filled Americans. It's shocking to learn just how badly and unfairly the Palestinians were treated from the very start. Forced off their land and from their homes with no compensation?!! Netanyahu himself lives in a valuable home taken/stolen from a Palestinian family. It's all been hidden with layers of propaganda, the power of money, the threat of antisemitism, and our sympathy for the horrific Holocaust, but now I and others can see the truth. Gaza has been and is occupied by an extremely hostile state and they have the right to fight back against their oppressors.
Lisa, yesterday Biden let slip that he is working behind the scenes for a peaceful solution. There is only so much he can do; he and Blinken are working to keep the tinderbox of Iran/Hezbollah/Isis from catching the whole region on fire.
Yeah, they should have called for a ceasefire weeks ago. They enabled this and I hope it doesn't grow larger. I truly question their judgment and morals that they have backed vile Netanyahu in his and his fellow leaders' murderous terror on Gaza. They talk about sending the Palestinians to Congo! I would never vote for Biden again if it weren't absolutely critical to stop the insane GOP. Vote Blue no matter who.
Something that gives me pause - and should give others pause - is this: while the Senate is the body actually entrusted with ratifying treaties, only 4 out of 100 senators have publicly and explicitly expressed ceasefire support, and those 4 (Durbin, Merkeley, Warren, Welch) expressed lengthening the November temporary ceasefire if conditions were met (which were not). So there is literally ZERO support at the necessary level of the U.S. government for an immediate ceasefire at this time.
Every person with a heart will have a horrible reaction to seeing what is happening in Gaza, including me. But if literally NO ONE at the necessary level of government is supporting a given position - not even Bernie Freaking Sanders - one could conclude that such a position is somewhere between quite fringe and downright impossible
Will; You omitted Bernie from that list.
No, I didn't. Bernie has been uncharacteristically nuanced in his stance, and caught flak from many supporters for refusing to publicly call for an immediate cease fire. There have been many articles about it.
Like I said, everyone has the right to an opinion and to express it peacefully. But if Bernie, of all people, thinks your stance is too unrealistic and lefty... hoo boy!
Lisa, they did call for a ceasefire—and the Israeli government ignored them, saying that they need to destroy the group (Hamas) that is calling for killing all Jews, whatever collateral damage that action causes. Just like “bomb the Mexican drug labs” proposed by a past president to get support, war against an enemy is a relatively easy action to distract a populace from a corrupt leader and disrupt a recall action.
I agree that Netanyahu has a motive to stay out of jail, in addition his other motives. I don't remember them ever actually calling for a ceasefire. They voted no on the UN resolution. Biden has said there should be no daylight between the US and Israel about anything. And they could shut off funds and arms if they chose, but Biden and Blinken are all in.
Lisa,
If they back out, who will be left to call for a ceasefire? Biden said no light when it comes to genocide of Jews. The arms are to replenish the iron dome to protect the Israeli people. The carrier fleets are to protect shipping in the Red Sea.
https://sv.usembassy.gov/president-bidens-statement-during-his-visit-to-tel-aviv/
He can stop the money!
Jenny, in the same way Trump did with Ukraine? Isn’t a Senate decision to make?
My understanding is he went over the heads of Congress?
Ummm, he’s not allowed to go over Congress’s head. If he could actually do that, he’d be continuing to fund Ukraine’s efforts against Putin, defying the House of Reps, right?
Dave, he has recently sent 14,000 tank shells to Israel without approval from the Senate.
Thank you for the reference
David and Jenny, as I understand it, those tank shells are strictly for restocking the Iron Dome to protect the Israeli citizens.
How much are we really funding? Does anyone know? Prior to Oct 7, Israel had a well trained and well armed military. I’m not sure what if anything we have sent them in military aid since then. The Republicans have refused aid to Israel and to Ukraine until the southern border is sorted out. (A conundrum that ranks about 4th in difficulty just after Climate Change, USA healthcare system, and peace in the Middle East.). So don’t hold your breath about the Republicans ponying up any more funds till after the election.
Note that this article is from 11/18. The dead now number between 20 and 30,000. Unknown number buried under rubble Starvation, and lack of shelter, water and medical help is a constant. https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/18/23966137/us-weapons-israel-biden-package-explained
The number of casualties is supplied by the Gaza Health Ministry, aka Hamas. I reserve judgement until that number is independently confirmed by a neutral party, like the U.N.
All I can say is that UN has found Hamas numbers to be accurate in the past.
Sky, you’re not sure what we have sent them since 10/7 because you are siloed in your media input. Genocide Joe and Butcher Blinken have sent two separate shipments of weaponry, mostly consisting of artillery and tank shells, without Congressional authority, mind you, and that’s over and above our regular four-billion military weaponry outlay, consisting of the bunker-busting bombs that are blowing Palestinian children to bits, and those don’t include the children who are having limbs amputated without anesthesia, who, if they live, will have an immediate future of starvation and disease. It is unspeakable horror, Biden is complicit, as he is in the horror of Ukraine, and unlike Lisa, I wouldn’t vote for a genocide enabler for all the tea in China.
I would never vote for a grifting asshole like Trump, so put that to rest. Those crocodile tears Biden shed about Gaza, after his speech was interrupted by protest in the church yesterday, which Heather notedly failed to mention, were repulsive in their insincerity.
2.8 billion per year + to Israel!
I do not have the time to re-educate you. But time and time again it has been the PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY AND THE PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE REFUSED TO ACCEPT ANY PEACE OR TWO STATE DEAL.
They should have been given a big beautiful state with lots of coastline and compensation for loss of homes and land and ancient olive groves back in 1948. What the hell were the British thinking? 750,000 violently forced off their land and future Israelis more than happy to take what wasn't theirs. This is the bottom; the rest is excuses and propaganda. We all need a re-education to see the truth. That explains the heavy censorship going on everywhere on behalf of Israel. No need to censor if there's nothing to hide.
Lisa, with all due respect, I suggest that you might spend some time reading about the history of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. It’s one of the most complex and intractable problems of our time, and requires an understanding of the past to understand the present. Some of what you say is true - Netanyahu is a pretty bad guy - but painting all Israelis with his brush is very far from what all Israelis believe. Remember, just a few months ago, demonstrations against his plans for the judiciary with hundreds of thousands of people, that went on for months?
Biden has worked with a lot of delicacy to prevent this conflict from spreading. He has pushed hard for a moderation of Israeli actions. But you are beyond naive if you think that any nation would allow what Hamas did to go unanswered. Hamas itself bears responsibility for the initiation of this conflict; for using its own citizens as human shields; and for continuing to hold hostages. Try to imagine for a minute what three months of captivity has been like for them, especially for the women. Try to imagine that some of those women are likely pregnant now. Hamas was offered ceasefire contingent on the release of hostages. They stopped releasing hostages, so the ceasefire ended. This is on them. I’m not talking about partition or about the treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank, I’m talking about today’s conflict. Put the blame where it is due, and it is not due to Biden.
And Iran is involved. I see Biden moving quietly to do what can be done to stop the region blowing up.
We don't belong there, violently meddling as usual.
Who said Iran is involved?
Jenny, Iran is well established as a sponsor of terrorism in the Middle East. Among the entities it supports are Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad. The mission of those entities is to erase Israel from the face of the earth. In fact, much of our support for Israel is because it provides a democratic counterweight to Iran’s power in the Middle East.
I would add that the fact that you didn’t know this underlines my advice that readers educate themselves on the history of the region before making judgements about who to blame for this most recent conflict.
Hamas has been used 2 times before by Israel.
There are hundreds of Palestinians being held in Israeli gaols without trial.
It's you who should read more.
Jenny, I’m well aware of that, and do not endorse it. I’m not an apologist for Israel and all it does. I’m simply suggesting that this is an incredibly complicated and fraught situation, with many historical echoes that are essential to understanding today. I don’t pretend to understand all the nuance myself. But a blanket condemnation of Israel for all the region’s problems, and the Palestinian’s problems themselves, is just ignorant. Furthermore, the spread of condemnation of Israel morphing into condemnation and harassment of Jews is revolting. But it also confirms the necessity of an Israel. The world seems to have forgotten the horrors of the holocaust, and that is unacceptable.
Massively disproportionate response is a war crime, as is indiscriminate bombing, which even Biden mentioned. I don't blame all Israelis, but Netanyahu and fellow extremists continue to be elected. How can you truthfully say that the Palestinians were ever treated fairly. No one in this country has been forced off their land and out of their homes since our horrific genocide of the Native Americans. It isn't done, except during wars of aggression or when colonizers do it, in the name of civilizing the nonwhite savages. (Kidnapping nonwhite people from their homes to bring them here to work for free is a variation on the theme.)
Lisa, in fact, you did blame all Israelis in your original comment.
I have not said that Palestinians have been treated fairly; in fact, I think they are mistreated pawns in a larger struggle. But the mistreatment of Palestinians has not all been from the Israelis. Israel is, in fact, 20% Arab. The Palestinians have been offered a two state solution, more than once, which they themselves rejected. And they rejected it because they do not believe the state of Israel has the right to exist. The stated aim of Hamas is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. The betrayal of the Palestinian people has been perpetrated by their own leaders, not only in the Palestinian Territories but also in neighboring countries, which have maintained refugee camps for generations rather than integrating refugees, because the refugees are politically useful. I’ve been to a Palestinian refugee camp; I know whereof I speak.
The Israelis are as much the indigenous people of that land as the Palestinians are, despite their own years of diaspora. The hubris of Great Britain in its establishment of boundaries post WW1 in the Middle East is responsible for much of today’s conflict, ignoring as it did tribal boundaries and loyalties and establishing Hashemite kingdoms throughout the region.
I think the behavior of Israeli settlers is reprehensible. I think indiscriminate bombing is horrific. But Hamas itself is responsible for this, first, by its original attack, second, by violating terms of ceasefire, and third, by continuing to hold hostages. No one is blame-free here.
Again, I suggest that you do a lot more reading of the region’s history before you harden your views.
I'm sorry if I blamed all Israelis. I know the arguments, and I always try to learn more. I read that other locations were considered for Israel. I don't think I will ever agree with 2000 year old claims to land ownership. My understanding is that they came in and violently forced people out of their homes and off their land, including instances of rape and a massacre. I would be seething with rage if that happened to my family.
Well, Lisa, you did talk about colonizers, implying that that’s what the Israelis are. It’s hard to be a colonizer in your indigenous land. I am NOT saying that what happened to the Palestinians was fair, or right. I’m only saying that it wasn’t colonization.
I don’t disagree that partition was a mess. It was. And it was vastly unfair. But please do remember that the Jews needed, and still need, a safe haven. They themselves were victims of violent forcing out of their lands, including out of Arab countries after 1948. One might hope that they, of all people, might be more empathetic, but to them it’s existential.
Do you know why Judaism is matriarchal? That is, one is considered a Jew if one’s mother is a Jew. It’s because of generations of systemic rape. And please, don’t ever forget the holocaust and our worldwide guilt for that.
Obviously, the Palestinians got the short end of the world’s stick. But that did happen, so now what? That is the intractable problem. But how do the Israelis negotiate with a group who will only accept Israel’s utter annihilation?
Call it a proxy colony of the US and UK. There should never have had to be unfair offers of a two state solution. As I said, an at least equal state in terms of resources, including compensation, would have made a huge difference. Israel has done the opposite, indoctrinating its young people to hate Palestinians. They have arrogantly and brutally shown zero empathy for the Palestinians. The abuse and murder of them by the IDF has gotten worse and worse and this has also turned people against them. I know many Jews who live perfectly happily here in California; they don't need Israel. Much, not all of the supposed acts of antisemitism include people who dare to criticize Israel. Luckily for Israel, they are backed by literally almost everyone in the US government as well as most Jewish boomers. So they're going to get their way, expelling all Palestinians from tiny Gaza, which has natural gas, and from the West Bank by way of murderous settlers taking their homes. What used to be their sliver of land has been made unliveable for those who haven't been murdered. Thousands of children have lost limbs, many amputated without anesthesia. Every war crime imaginable, all excused because of Hamas, supported originally by Netanyahu to avoid a two state solution. He was duly elected. The idea that "God" chose them to take over the Holy Lands fuels their arrogance and is nothing more than a myth. I don't have to fall in line and you don't have to worry. Israel will keep getting many billions worth of weapons and aid, while many of our citizens live in extreme poverty without healthcare or enough food. You can call me antisemitic. I know I'm not. I have grieved for the victims of the Holocaust many times, as have all sane and loving people. I love and admire from near and afar countless Jewish people . I admire immensely all of the Jews with compassion in their hearts who dare to defy the immense pressure, defamation and misinformation laid on them in this country to see no, speak no, hear no criticism of mighty Israel. The whole MSM censors and distorts information about the situation. Even the attack by Hamas, which was horrific and atrocious from a humanitarian perspective, has been subject to lies and secrecy and half were killed by the IDF. Think of it as more like a slave rebellion by a people long oppressed and terribly abused. Think of it as Jews rising up against the Nazis. They were all helplessly overpowered..
The PLO to my understanding were under rules from Israel who still controlled the borders. They had NO authority.
On the other hand: The Palestinian National Authority (PA or PNA; Arabic: السلطة الوطنية الفلسطينية as-Sulṭa al-Waṭanīya al-Filasṭīnīya), commonly known as the Palestinian Authority and officially the State of Palestine, is the Fatah-controlled government body that exercises partial civil control over West Bank areas "A" and "B" as a consequence of the 1993–1995 Oslo Accords. The Palestinian Authority controlled the Gaza Strip prior to the Palestinian elections of 2006 and the subsequent Gaza conflict between the Fatah and Hamas parties, when it lost control to Hamas; the PA continues to claim the Gaza Strip, although Hamas exercises de facto control. Since January 2013, the Palestinian Authority has used the name "State of Palestine" on official documents, although the United Nations continues to recognize the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) as the "representative of the Palestinian people". Wikipedia
The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO; Arabic: منظمة التحرير الفلسطينية Munaẓẓamat at-Taḥrīr al-Filasṭīniyyah) is a Palestinian nationalist coalition that is internationally recognized as the official representative of the Palestinian people. Founded in 1964, it initially sought to establish an Arab state over the entire territory of the former Mandatory Palestine, advocating the elimination of the State of Israel. However, in 1993, the PLO recognized Israeli sovereignty with the Oslo I Accord, and now only seeks Arab statehood in the Palestinian territories (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) that have been militarily occupied by Israel since the 1967 Arab–Israeli War.
You need to be re-educated. Your lack of awareness, and history, in defense of a genocide, is disgusting.
Lisa, I hear what you are saying. I agree with you 100%. It would be morally right to cut off all aid to Israel. However, I think nuclear-powered Israel would be desperate if we were to do so. A dramatic gesture like that would make our country vulnerable (more vulnerable than it already is). Governments need to keep their citizens safe. I think we would not be safe if we backed Israel into a corner. I think the Biden Administration is pushing for Israel to back down. On the other hand we and other countries built this Frankenstein. Years of colonization by Western powers was the model upon which Israel was built. A malignant destructive model. Now what? It is a trip-wire situation. It is awful and heart-breaking. And the hatred and blood lust are not only happening in Israel and Ukraine but in many other places around the world including our own U.S. with our gun violence and violence directed at communities that do not fit the old white man’s burden model--just let me be in charge and I’ll show you lesser beings how it’s done. What needs to change to move humanity forward and away from this destructive mindset? I think we need to start changing minds locally. Individual municipalities need to move away from militarization of their own police forces for example. Too many guns. Too much violence. Too too many of our fellow citizens in prison. We need to work on those problems close to home. Find a new model, one not based on exploitation and domination. Grass roots pushing for change. Meanwhile our national diplomats can hopefully keep us from total destruction while we work locally to change mindsets. Having said all this I am worried we are actually too late--things too far gone and Frankenstein on the loose--to address all the cruelty baked into all our systems. We may be staring down the path to a violent destruction rather than constructive fixes to the model we have been following for centuries.
I do agree with what you have perfectly stated. I do believe it's far too late. Humans in power have continued to show their greed and cruelty as has always been the case, with rare exceptions. And exactly because of greed and lack of empathy, our planet and its nonhuman inhabitants are damaged beyond repair. The powers that be aren't willing to give up their filthy billions to save it in time. Smart enough to ruin it, but not smart or caring enough to save it.
Remember OIL?
We don't have to have a state there to buy oil.
Lisa,
Netanyahu is a criminal. He had a struggle winning his position, as Israel's leader....and yet he did and here we are. I am in agreement with you.
Netanyahu is using us. We need to get out of this situation. We are creating more pain, more hatred by supporting Israel's slaughter and that is what it is.
Gaza belongs to the Palestinian people. Netanyahu has told us who he is and what he is planning for Gaza.....how many times does he have to repeat himself?
Better still, IF WE COULD ALL live together and worship or not as we choose. Faith should be a personal choice....not some forced word stamped on someones forehead in order to stay alive...in order to not lose their home or the lives of their families.
I must trust there are talks going on...I must trust in negotiations but we cannot bring back the lives lost. I do not believe President Biden or Blinken approve. I do trust that they are working to calm this conflict. But currently Netanyahu has us where he wants us. This is a highly sensitive situation. Other countries are watching...our enemies probably helped to "set this up".....to weaken us and to involve us in as many conflicts as possible....to divide our country and to attack our President. It is a wicked web!!!!
Is it possible that Netanyahu set this up? The protective dome was not completely functioning at the time the hostages were taken....there are other questions.
We each should be able to worship as we choose and not condemned. Of course with our choices there should be no killing one another!!!!
The truth is shrouded in lies, cover-ups, propaganda, bought media, dead journalists and our own desires, isn't it?
Israel made the choice to defend her right to exist. Biden is not Hamas. Hamas crossed the border into Israel on a Sabbath morning to begin terrorizing the sleeping citizens of a sovereign nation. Hamas is funded by Iran (a proxy for Putin) and the Arab states. Think of it this way: you are asleep in your home in NYC. You wake up to screaming New Jerseyites who burn, rape, murder you and all your neighbors because they hate New Jersey.
I see that. However, Israel is making a choice to bomb Gaza back to the Stone Age. And there are a lot of people caught up in it who did not instigate or even support the Oct 7 attack. But they do now. Israel will succeed in turning Gaza into a wasteland and dispersing the former Gaza’s throughout the world, those that survive the onslaught. Whatever sympathy Israel had is now gone for most citizens of the world. Israelis had a choice and they chose genocide.
Not genocide. Words matter.
https://www.csis.org/analysis/hamass-october-7-attack-visualizing-data
To understand the sophistication of the Hamas terrorist attacks on Israel on October 7, check out the above link. This was a huge step up from the years of suicide bombings, rocket attacks and kidnappings suffered by Israel.
(The Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) is a nonprofit, nonpartisan 501(c)(3) organization located in Washington, DC).
If you have the idea that the Qassam Brigades are a small band of freedom fighters, they are definitely not.
People who have not seen the actual surveillance videos have no idea what happened October 7th. They repeat what they hear, like parrots..
Frankly, I think many do know. They just think Israel deserved it. I know it is disturbing to say, and I am open to being challenged and hope to be proven wrong. What I see is that so many have fully internalized the Israel-as-land-stealing-oppressor tropes and propaganda that any attack on Israel is viewed in the same way as an abused child killing their abusive parent, times a million. They will pay lip service ("I don't condone the murders at all..."), but then openly place their sympathy with the perpetrator ("...but this is what happens when you make innocent people desperate.") The extra special thing folks are doing with Israel is pre-emptively blaming it for any future violence ("this brutality will just lead to more youth joining the terrorists"), while also expecting unilateral disarmament with no plan in place ("Cease fire now!").
A lot of people just really, really, really don't like Israel, and see their chance to unload those sentiments publicly.
Yes, Will, and I’d take it even further. It’s anti-semitism on steroids.
To restate the obvious, opposing Israeli government policies is not immediately equivalent to being anti-semetic.
But I'm not seeing a whole heck of a lot of "No military support until more transparency from IDF. International cooperation must result in a two state solution, once and for all."
What I am seeing a whole heapin' bunch of is: "Israel is a crimminal oppressor who is slaughtering innocents to fulfill their takeover of rightful Arab land, and those who control money and media have brainwashed us to look away."
Essentially: Israel shouldn't exist, is terrible at the root, and has brought violence on itself. Which is a harshness of sentiment I can't recall ever being expressed toward another nation, and considering we are talking about the ONLY majority-Jewish country on Earth... combined with all the obvious stereotypes about Jews as a whole... Well, it SOUNDS pretty freaking anti-Semetic. If anyone can't even acknowledge it might sound that way then I can't help them.
Will, I love your way with words.
I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. One thought that keeps recurring is that the response of American POC to Gaza might to some degree reflect the depth of their frustration with their own treatment here, but it’s safer for them to rail against Israel than against our own failures. I can’t say that that is a wrong way to feel, even if I think the fury against Israel is misplaced and reflective of a visceral, senseless anti-semitism. Apartheid is ugly, no matter where we find it.
Annie,
Let's just take religion out of it.....humans murdering humans for power and control with no boundaries...only selfish control....like two people fighting until both are dead.
No matter the names or descriptions of beliefs....it is simple hatred and greed and power to control.....no one is ever happy or satisfied.
It is the cry of HELL,'MORE, MORE, MORE'....
Who do you think Israel is a proxy for? Biden is worse than Hamas, for he is siding with an oppressor over the oppressed.
Think of it this way: U.S. bombs are killing kids in a concentration camp.
Rubbish....read more. NOT MSM garbage.
This is another message that the Biden people need to shout. Biden is between a rock & a hard place with his sending weapon to the current Israeli gov . How do u support Israel right as a nation but not its government. The US has been there too
Correct. These difficult-to-impossible choices, where there is no true I-can-live-with-that option, is the downside to holding that most powerful of positions. Armchair analysts and keyboard warriors can praise you or damn you, but they will never have to actually give the order knowing the full scope of what it may entail one way or the other.
It is very conflicting for me, because the US has always stood with Israel, even though I haven’t always understood why. This war is over 2,000 years old!!!! However, I am not sure that is the right thing to do anymore. BUT these actions and genocide belong to the Israelis alone. It does not rest on the shoulders of the US. I do trust that the administration is trying to move the Israelis in a different direction, but there does not seem to be any inclination to move from their position.
It is my personal and very uninformed opinion that there is tremendous national guilt over the treatment of Jews by Hitler in WWII and of our refusal to take refugees from there.
I also have the personal and very uninformed opinion that, while there have been conflicts in this region since recorded history (and before, I am certain), the real issue now is that first Britain, then the US has "decided what's best" in the Middle East (with an eye towards petroleum reserves) since the Balfour Declaration in 1917.
NO. It's up to Biden not giving Israel more money!
Jenny, appropriations are the responsibility of Congress, not Presidents
Look up AUMF
https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/538387-repealing-the-aumf-is-bidens-opportunity-to-end-the-forever-wars/
Joint Resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States