I do not have the time to re-educate you. But time and time again it has been the PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY AND THE PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE REFUSED TO ACCEPT ANY PEACE OR TWO STATE DEAL.
I do not have the time to re-educate you. But time and time again it has been the PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY AND THE PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE REFUSED TO ACCEPT ANY PEACE OR TWO STATE DEAL.
They should have been given a big beautiful state with lots of coastline and compensation for loss of homes and land and ancient olive groves back in 1948. What the hell were the British thinking? 750,000 violently forced off their land and future Israelis more than happy to take what wasn't theirs. This is the bottom; the rest is excuses and propaganda. We all need a re-education to see the truth. That explains the heavy censorship going on everywhere on behalf of Israel. No need to censor if there's nothing to hide.
Lisa, with all due respect, I suggest that you might spend some time reading about the history of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. ItтАЩs one of the most complex and intractable problems of our time, and requires an understanding of the past to understand the present. Some of what you say is true - Netanyahu is a pretty bad guy - but painting all Israelis with his brush is very far from what all Israelis believe. Remember, just a few months ago, demonstrations against his plans for the judiciary with hundreds of thousands of people, that went on for months?
Biden has worked with a lot of delicacy to prevent this conflict from spreading. He has pushed hard for a moderation of Israeli actions. But you are beyond naive if you think that any nation would allow what Hamas did to go unanswered. Hamas itself bears responsibility for the initiation of this conflict; for using its own citizens as human shields; and for continuing to hold hostages. Try to imagine for a minute what three months of captivity has been like for them, especially for the women. Try to imagine that some of those women are likely pregnant now. Hamas was offered ceasefire contingent on the release of hostages. They stopped releasing hostages, so the ceasefire ended. This is on them. IтАЩm not talking about partition or about the treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank, IтАЩm talking about todayтАЩs conflict. Put the blame where it is due, and it is not due to Biden.
Jenny, Iran is well established as a sponsor of terrorism in the Middle East. Among the entities it supports are Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad. The mission of those entities is to erase Israel from the face of the earth. In fact, much of our support for Israel is because it provides a democratic counterweight to IranтАЩs power in the Middle East.
I would add that the fact that you didnтАЩt know this underlines my advice that readers educate themselves on the history of the region before making judgements about who to blame for this most recent conflict.
Jenny, IтАЩm well aware of that, and do not endorse it. IтАЩm not an apologist for Israel and all it does. IтАЩm simply suggesting that this is an incredibly complicated and fraught situation, with many historical echoes that are essential to understanding today. I donтАЩt pretend to understand all the nuance myself. But a blanket condemnation of Israel for all the regionтАЩs problems, and the PalestinianтАЩs problems themselves, is just ignorant. Furthermore, the spread of condemnation of Israel morphing into condemnation and harassment of Jews is revolting. But it also confirms the necessity of an Israel. The world seems to have forgotten the horrors of the holocaust, and that is unacceptable.
Massively disproportionate response is a war crime, as is indiscriminate bombing, which even Biden mentioned. I don't blame all Israelis, but Netanyahu and fellow extremists continue to be elected. How can you truthfully say that the Palestinians were ever treated fairly. No one in this country has been forced off their land and out of their homes since our horrific genocide of the Native Americans. It isn't done, except during wars of aggression or when colonizers do it, in the name of civilizing the nonwhite savages. (Kidnapping nonwhite people from their homes to bring them here to work for free is a variation on the theme.)
Lisa, in fact, you did blame all Israelis in your original comment.
I have not said that Palestinians have been treated fairly; in fact, I think they are mistreated pawns in a larger struggle. But the mistreatment of Palestinians has not all been from the Israelis. Israel is, in fact, 20% Arab. The Palestinians have been offered a two state solution, more than once, which they themselves rejected. And they rejected it because they do not believe the state of Israel has the right to exist. The stated aim of Hamas is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. The betrayal of the Palestinian people has been perpetrated by their own leaders, not only in the Palestinian Territories but also in neighboring countries, which have maintained refugee camps for generations rather than integrating refugees, because the refugees are politically useful. IтАЩve been to a Palestinian refugee camp; I know whereof I speak.
The Israelis are as much the indigenous people of that land as the Palestinians are, despite their own years of diaspora. The hubris of Great Britain in its establishment of boundaries post WW1 in the Middle East is responsible for much of todayтАЩs conflict, ignoring as it did tribal boundaries and loyalties and establishing Hashemite kingdoms throughout the region.
I think the behavior of Israeli settlers is reprehensible. I think indiscriminate bombing is horrific. But Hamas itself is responsible for this, first, by its original attack, second, by violating terms of ceasefire, and third, by continuing to hold hostages. No one is blame-free here.
Again, I suggest that you do a lot more reading of the regionтАЩs history before you harden your views.
I'm sorry if I blamed all Israelis. I know the arguments, and I always try to learn more. I read that other locations were considered for Israel. I don't think I will ever agree with 2000 year old claims to land ownership. My understanding is that they came in and violently forced people out of their homes and off their land, including instances of rape and a massacre. I would be seething with rage if that happened to my family.
Well, Lisa, you did talk about colonizers, implying that thatтАЩs what the Israelis are. ItтАЩs hard to be a colonizer in your indigenous land. I am NOT saying that what happened to the Palestinians was fair, or right. IтАЩm only saying that it wasnтАЩt colonization.
I donтАЩt disagree that partition was a mess. It was. And it was vastly unfair. But please do remember that the Jews needed, and still need, a safe haven. They themselves were victims of violent forcing out of their lands, including out of Arab countries after 1948. One might hope that they, of all people, might be more empathetic, but to them itтАЩs existential.
Do you know why Judaism is matriarchal? That is, one is considered a Jew if oneтАЩs mother is a Jew. ItтАЩs because of generations of systemic rape. And please, donтАЩt ever forget the holocaust and our worldwide guilt for that.
Obviously, the Palestinians got the short end of the worldтАЩs stick. But that did happen, so now what? That is the intractable problem. But how do the Israelis negotiate with a group who will only accept IsraelтАЩs utter annihilation?
Call it a proxy colony of the US and UK. There should never have had to be unfair offers of a two state solution. As I said, an at least equal state in terms of resources, including compensation, would have made a huge difference. Israel has done the opposite, indoctrinating its young people to hate Palestinians. They have arrogantly and brutally shown zero empathy for the Palestinians. The abuse and murder of them by the IDF has gotten worse and worse and this has also turned people against them. I know many Jews who live perfectly happily here in California; they don't need Israel. Much, not all of the supposed acts of antisemitism include people who dare to criticize Israel. Luckily for Israel, they are backed by literally almost everyone in the US government as well as most Jewish boomers. So they're going to get their way, expelling all Palestinians from tiny Gaza, which has natural gas, and from the West Bank by way of murderous settlers taking their homes. What used to be their sliver of land has been made unliveable for those who haven't been murdered. Thousands of children have lost limbs, many amputated without anesthesia. Every war crime imaginable, all excused because of Hamas, supported originally by Netanyahu to avoid a two state solution. He was duly elected. The idea that "God" chose them to take over the Holy Lands fuels their arrogance and is nothing more than a myth. I don't have to fall in line and you don't have to worry. Israel will keep getting many billions worth of weapons and aid, while many of our citizens live in extreme poverty without healthcare or enough food. You can call me antisemitic. I know I'm not. I have grieved for the victims of the Holocaust many times, as have all sane and loving people. I love and admire from near and afar countless Jewish people . I admire immensely all of the Jews with compassion in their hearts who dare to defy the immense pressure, defamation and misinformation laid on them in this country to see no, speak no, hear no criticism of mighty Israel. The whole MSM censors and distorts information about the situation. Even the attack by Hamas, which was horrific and atrocious from a humanitarian perspective, has been subject to lies and secrecy and half were killed by the IDF. Think of it as more like a slave rebellion by a people long oppressed and terribly abused. Think of it as Jews rising up against the Nazis. They were all helplessly overpowered..
On the other hand: The Palestinian National Authority (PA or PNA; Arabic: ╪з┘Д╪│┘Д╪╖╪й ╪з┘Д┘И╪╖┘Ж┘К╪й ╪з┘Д┘Б┘Д╪│╪╖┘К┘Ж┘К╪й as-Sulс╣нa al-Waс╣нan─лya al-Filasс╣н─лn─лya), commonly known as the Palestinian Authority and officially the State of Palestine, is the Fatah-controlled government body that exercises partial civil control over West Bank areas "A" and "B" as a consequence of the 1993тАУ1995 Oslo Accords. The Palestinian Authority controlled the Gaza Strip prior to the Palestinian elections of 2006 and the subsequent Gaza conflict between the Fatah and Hamas parties, when it lost control to Hamas; the PA continues to claim the Gaza Strip, although Hamas exercises de facto control. Since January 2013, the Palestinian Authority has used the name "State of Palestine" on official documents, although the United Nations continues to recognize the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) as the "representative of the Palestinian people". Wikipedia
The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO; Arabic: ┘Е┘Ж╪╕┘Е╪й ╪з┘Д╪к╪н╪▒┘К╪▒ ╪з┘Д┘Б┘Д╪│╪╖┘К┘Ж┘К╪й Munaс║Ус║Уamat at-Taс╕еr─лr al-Filasс╣н─лniyyah) is a Palestinian nationalist coalition that is internationally recognized as the official representative of the Palestinian people. Founded in 1964, it initially sought to establish an Arab state over the entire territory of the former Mandatory Palestine, advocating the elimination of the State of Israel. However, in 1993, the PLO recognized Israeli sovereignty with the Oslo I Accord, and now only seeks Arab statehood in the Palestinian territories (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) that have been militarily occupied by Israel since the 1967 ArabтАУIsraeli War.
I do not have the time to re-educate you. But time and time again it has been the PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY AND THE PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE REFUSED TO ACCEPT ANY PEACE OR TWO STATE DEAL.
They should have been given a big beautiful state with lots of coastline and compensation for loss of homes and land and ancient olive groves back in 1948. What the hell were the British thinking? 750,000 violently forced off their land and future Israelis more than happy to take what wasn't theirs. This is the bottom; the rest is excuses and propaganda. We all need a re-education to see the truth. That explains the heavy censorship going on everywhere on behalf of Israel. No need to censor if there's nothing to hide.
Lisa, with all due respect, I suggest that you might spend some time reading about the history of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. ItтАЩs one of the most complex and intractable problems of our time, and requires an understanding of the past to understand the present. Some of what you say is true - Netanyahu is a pretty bad guy - but painting all Israelis with his brush is very far from what all Israelis believe. Remember, just a few months ago, demonstrations against his plans for the judiciary with hundreds of thousands of people, that went on for months?
Biden has worked with a lot of delicacy to prevent this conflict from spreading. He has pushed hard for a moderation of Israeli actions. But you are beyond naive if you think that any nation would allow what Hamas did to go unanswered. Hamas itself bears responsibility for the initiation of this conflict; for using its own citizens as human shields; and for continuing to hold hostages. Try to imagine for a minute what three months of captivity has been like for them, especially for the women. Try to imagine that some of those women are likely pregnant now. Hamas was offered ceasefire contingent on the release of hostages. They stopped releasing hostages, so the ceasefire ended. This is on them. IтАЩm not talking about partition or about the treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank, IтАЩm talking about todayтАЩs conflict. Put the blame where it is due, and it is not due to Biden.
And Iran is involved. I see Biden moving quietly to do what can be done to stop the region blowing up.
We don't belong there, violently meddling as usual.
Who said Iran is involved?
Jenny, Iran is well established as a sponsor of terrorism in the Middle East. Among the entities it supports are Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad. The mission of those entities is to erase Israel from the face of the earth. In fact, much of our support for Israel is because it provides a democratic counterweight to IranтАЩs power in the Middle East.
I would add that the fact that you didnтАЩt know this underlines my advice that readers educate themselves on the history of the region before making judgements about who to blame for this most recent conflict.
Hamas has been used 2 times before by Israel.
There are hundreds of Palestinians being held in Israeli gaols without trial.
It's you who should read more.
Jenny, IтАЩm well aware of that, and do not endorse it. IтАЩm not an apologist for Israel and all it does. IтАЩm simply suggesting that this is an incredibly complicated and fraught situation, with many historical echoes that are essential to understanding today. I donтАЩt pretend to understand all the nuance myself. But a blanket condemnation of Israel for all the regionтАЩs problems, and the PalestinianтАЩs problems themselves, is just ignorant. Furthermore, the spread of condemnation of Israel morphing into condemnation and harassment of Jews is revolting. But it also confirms the necessity of an Israel. The world seems to have forgotten the horrors of the holocaust, and that is unacceptable.
Massively disproportionate response is a war crime, as is indiscriminate bombing, which even Biden mentioned. I don't blame all Israelis, but Netanyahu and fellow extremists continue to be elected. How can you truthfully say that the Palestinians were ever treated fairly. No one in this country has been forced off their land and out of their homes since our horrific genocide of the Native Americans. It isn't done, except during wars of aggression or when colonizers do it, in the name of civilizing the nonwhite savages. (Kidnapping nonwhite people from their homes to bring them here to work for free is a variation on the theme.)
Lisa, in fact, you did blame all Israelis in your original comment.
I have not said that Palestinians have been treated fairly; in fact, I think they are mistreated pawns in a larger struggle. But the mistreatment of Palestinians has not all been from the Israelis. Israel is, in fact, 20% Arab. The Palestinians have been offered a two state solution, more than once, which they themselves rejected. And they rejected it because they do not believe the state of Israel has the right to exist. The stated aim of Hamas is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. The betrayal of the Palestinian people has been perpetrated by their own leaders, not only in the Palestinian Territories but also in neighboring countries, which have maintained refugee camps for generations rather than integrating refugees, because the refugees are politically useful. IтАЩve been to a Palestinian refugee camp; I know whereof I speak.
The Israelis are as much the indigenous people of that land as the Palestinians are, despite their own years of diaspora. The hubris of Great Britain in its establishment of boundaries post WW1 in the Middle East is responsible for much of todayтАЩs conflict, ignoring as it did tribal boundaries and loyalties and establishing Hashemite kingdoms throughout the region.
I think the behavior of Israeli settlers is reprehensible. I think indiscriminate bombing is horrific. But Hamas itself is responsible for this, first, by its original attack, second, by violating terms of ceasefire, and third, by continuing to hold hostages. No one is blame-free here.
Again, I suggest that you do a lot more reading of the regionтАЩs history before you harden your views.
I'm sorry if I blamed all Israelis. I know the arguments, and I always try to learn more. I read that other locations were considered for Israel. I don't think I will ever agree with 2000 year old claims to land ownership. My understanding is that they came in and violently forced people out of their homes and off their land, including instances of rape and a massacre. I would be seething with rage if that happened to my family.
Well, Lisa, you did talk about colonizers, implying that thatтАЩs what the Israelis are. ItтАЩs hard to be a colonizer in your indigenous land. I am NOT saying that what happened to the Palestinians was fair, or right. IтАЩm only saying that it wasnтАЩt colonization.
I donтАЩt disagree that partition was a mess. It was. And it was vastly unfair. But please do remember that the Jews needed, and still need, a safe haven. They themselves were victims of violent forcing out of their lands, including out of Arab countries after 1948. One might hope that they, of all people, might be more empathetic, but to them itтАЩs existential.
Do you know why Judaism is matriarchal? That is, one is considered a Jew if oneтАЩs mother is a Jew. ItтАЩs because of generations of systemic rape. And please, donтАЩt ever forget the holocaust and our worldwide guilt for that.
Obviously, the Palestinians got the short end of the worldтАЩs stick. But that did happen, so now what? That is the intractable problem. But how do the Israelis negotiate with a group who will only accept IsraelтАЩs utter annihilation?
Call it a proxy colony of the US and UK. There should never have had to be unfair offers of a two state solution. As I said, an at least equal state in terms of resources, including compensation, would have made a huge difference. Israel has done the opposite, indoctrinating its young people to hate Palestinians. They have arrogantly and brutally shown zero empathy for the Palestinians. The abuse and murder of them by the IDF has gotten worse and worse and this has also turned people against them. I know many Jews who live perfectly happily here in California; they don't need Israel. Much, not all of the supposed acts of antisemitism include people who dare to criticize Israel. Luckily for Israel, they are backed by literally almost everyone in the US government as well as most Jewish boomers. So they're going to get their way, expelling all Palestinians from tiny Gaza, which has natural gas, and from the West Bank by way of murderous settlers taking their homes. What used to be their sliver of land has been made unliveable for those who haven't been murdered. Thousands of children have lost limbs, many amputated without anesthesia. Every war crime imaginable, all excused because of Hamas, supported originally by Netanyahu to avoid a two state solution. He was duly elected. The idea that "God" chose them to take over the Holy Lands fuels their arrogance and is nothing more than a myth. I don't have to fall in line and you don't have to worry. Israel will keep getting many billions worth of weapons and aid, while many of our citizens live in extreme poverty without healthcare or enough food. You can call me antisemitic. I know I'm not. I have grieved for the victims of the Holocaust many times, as have all sane and loving people. I love and admire from near and afar countless Jewish people . I admire immensely all of the Jews with compassion in their hearts who dare to defy the immense pressure, defamation and misinformation laid on them in this country to see no, speak no, hear no criticism of mighty Israel. The whole MSM censors and distorts information about the situation. Even the attack by Hamas, which was horrific and atrocious from a humanitarian perspective, has been subject to lies and secrecy and half were killed by the IDF. Think of it as more like a slave rebellion by a people long oppressed and terribly abused. Think of it as Jews rising up against the Nazis. They were all helplessly overpowered..
The PLO to my understanding were under rules from Israel who still controlled the borders. They had NO authority.
On the other hand: The Palestinian National Authority (PA or PNA; Arabic: ╪з┘Д╪│┘Д╪╖╪й ╪з┘Д┘И╪╖┘Ж┘К╪й ╪з┘Д┘Б┘Д╪│╪╖┘К┘Ж┘К╪й as-Sulс╣нa al-Waс╣нan─лya al-Filasс╣н─лn─лya), commonly known as the Palestinian Authority and officially the State of Palestine, is the Fatah-controlled government body that exercises partial civil control over West Bank areas "A" and "B" as a consequence of the 1993тАУ1995 Oslo Accords. The Palestinian Authority controlled the Gaza Strip prior to the Palestinian elections of 2006 and the subsequent Gaza conflict between the Fatah and Hamas parties, when it lost control to Hamas; the PA continues to claim the Gaza Strip, although Hamas exercises de facto control. Since January 2013, the Palestinian Authority has used the name "State of Palestine" on official documents, although the United Nations continues to recognize the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) as the "representative of the Palestinian people". Wikipedia
The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO; Arabic: ┘Е┘Ж╪╕┘Е╪й ╪з┘Д╪к╪н╪▒┘К╪▒ ╪з┘Д┘Б┘Д╪│╪╖┘К┘Ж┘К╪й Munaс║Ус║Уamat at-Taс╕еr─лr al-Filasс╣н─лniyyah) is a Palestinian nationalist coalition that is internationally recognized as the official representative of the Palestinian people. Founded in 1964, it initially sought to establish an Arab state over the entire territory of the former Mandatory Palestine, advocating the elimination of the State of Israel. However, in 1993, the PLO recognized Israeli sovereignty with the Oslo I Accord, and now only seeks Arab statehood in the Palestinian territories (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) that have been militarily occupied by Israel since the 1967 ArabтАУIsraeli War.
You need to be re-educated. Your lack of awareness, and history, in defense of a genocide, is disgusting.