My most detailed understanding of hell comes from Milton's Paradise Lost, and it says nothing about there being different levels for different devils. I've not read any Jerry Falwell or Kenneth Copeland (or whoever), so I may be missing some critical insight there.
I will say this, however...assuming that there is such a thing as a Sata…
My most detailed understanding of hell comes from Milton's Paradise Lost, and it says nothing about there being different levels for different devils. I've not read any Jerry Falwell or Kenneth Copeland (or whoever), so I may be missing some critical insight there.
I will say this, however...assuming that there is such a thing as a Satan, he (she?) most certainly created all religions. This is not to say there is no divine presence in the cosmos, only that we cannot possibly clothe it in our language and our doctrines such that we know when we're right and everyone else is wrong.
The compartmentalized hell thing comes, I believe, from Dante's Inferno. It's very detailed. Hell really is just a separation from the God of your understanding. That is the source of almost all the pain there is in the world. We try to fill that void with stuff (greed and addiction), and try to control others to feel secure (power, cruelty, lust, etc.). The seven deadly sins pretty much cover it.
All religions are spirituality expressed through politics. Religions can lose their way just like people do. All science is really curiosity expressed through politics. Science can be sublime and unbelievably callous. Politics is what happens when there is more than one person in a room at the same time. It is the center of any cooperative action, be it destructive, generative, or simply bureaucratic. Our founders separated church and state because they saw the abuses that happened under state religions in Europe (and in North America as well). It was a wise move that allowed the spiritual, material, intellectual, and political realms of human endeavor to flourish more fully than almost at point or place in human history - imperfectly, yes, but flourish is the best word for it.
Many of our Republican brothers and sisters have lost their way. The destruction of their party will be the result. They will have to pick up the pieces of their broken dreams and make new ones. It is up to us to help them find a way to do this that includes all of us, this time.
Thanks, Steve, thoughtful comment. I might add that without some system of beliefs that seems to explain our existence and our meaning, we are left contemplating life without .... us. What will become of our practically limitless capacity to imagine things when our clock runs out? Where will my thoughts end up?
So religious belief can provide comfort, but it really explains nothing. Science can actually make our lives better if we use it well, but not even that can resolve our fear of not existing.
I have long wondered why folks don’t have angst about not “being here” before they existed….maybe we just return to the “something/nothing” we were before (recycled mater) we came to be. Dunno…..
Barbara, that is an interesting thought. I figure what is done is done, and if the done things don't satisfy us, we can try to rectify them, but that can only happen in a future which begins in the ever-fleeting now. I rationalize most of the dumb-ass things I have said and done -- and their consequences -- with "the best lessons are learned the hard way", probably more profound than "it is what it is", but not by much. Debilitating angst only comes to me when people I love seem to be on their last legs and time accelerates, but I'm working on it.
Shame on me, but I've not yet read Dante's Inferno. Perhaps I should make time for it while I'm still above room temperature.
I'm still trying to figure out the spirituality thing, and the result of all my searching and questioning and pondering is that I have become much less reductionist and much more open to the possibility that no human being is equipped to truly grasp the infinite, the transcendent (divine). In fact, when one claims to understand the divine, it is certainly not the divine that person has understood. Whatever "truth" there is to be found is found in the act of seeking itself, not in the presumption of knowing.
I read "Tao: The Watercourse Way," by Alan Watts last spring and found it wonderfully illuminating in ways I had not previously considered. I love when that happens.
I am also intrigued by the writings of Simone Weil:
“There is a reality outside the world, outside space and time, outside man’s mental universe. Corresponding to this reality, at the center of the human heart, is the longing for an absolute good, a longing which is always there, and is never appeased by any object in this world. This reality is the sole source of all beauty, all truth, all justice, all legitimacy, and all order. It is beyond the reach of any human faculty, but we have the power to turn our love and our attention towards it. It is through minds so turned that good comes into the world. “
In Hindi, there is the phrase "neti neti", which means "not this, not that". It is used to describe the nature of Brahman, or reality, or God, or the ineffable. It seems to be used kind of like a verbal shrug. As for me, the universe makes no sense without love.
I have concluded hell is an invention of the early religions so that the designers of said religions could scare people with some kind of eternal punishment if the people in those religions did not follow whatever edicts the men in those religions laid out.
Hell was just a fake to control people.
I have seen it used in EXACTLY that way in my old stomping grounds of East Texas back in the day.
Hellfire & Brimstone can be traced back to Greek Mythology, where they lived with such volcanic activity. Hades contrasted with the Sky Wizard Zeus who meddled in the affairs of mortals. That was plagiarized by Christian Mythology to control their flock with terror & reward.
A well known author Elizabeth Kubler Ross describes hell in the following. Taking Hitler as an example. He will be placed in the presents of God/Higher Power. In the presents of the God he will understand what God knows, all love and all knowledge. With that knowledge he will then have to witness, feel and understand the impact of his cruelty and perversion to every single person on earth. And the hate, the fear and the pain experienced by all people affected by his actions throughout earthy time. I think Hitler is still experiencing the evil spread he spread on the universe.
A Jewish friend said that Hell is existing with out God. For an ever lasting time.
Satan is Lucifer. In the premortal world, our Heavenly Father created a plan for all of His children to come to earth, gain a physical body and be tested to see if we would be faithful and desire to return to Him after our death. His plan was for us to have agency, be able to decide for ourselves how we would live.
He knew not everyone would make the right choices, but that was there choice, and so provided a Savior for us who would take upon Himself all of our sin, grief, sorrow, pain, suffering, everything if we would repent and follow Him and His teachings. If they didn't, they suffered the consequences of not returning to the Celestial Kingdom, where God dwells, but, depending on the life we live, a different place in heaven.
Lucifer's plan was to force us all to live a perfect life so we would all return to heaven. But he was to receive all the glory. The Father rejected this plan and there was a war in heaven, which Lucifer (Satan) lost and he and one third of the hosts of heaven were expelled from the premortal world, sent to live in Satan's realm. (Think of the number of people who have lived, are living and will continue to live on the earth, then consider the number "one third: of all of that number. That number of people have been tempting people since the beginning of the earth. They have at least 7,000 years of experience.) They have been tempting all humans beginning with Adam and Eve to keep us from being true to our covenants to return to our Heavenly Father and Christ. The Church of Jesus Christ knows this doctrine to be true. Jesus Christ, Himself, taught it...given to living prophets.
For god's sake get religion of any and all kinds out of the business of politics. Religion, no matter which 'holy' leader one wants to believe, has its place and its purpose, however anything based on faith and empty of anything else is useless when it comes to real life and living. Politics, on the other hand, is the practice of following the societial/cultural leadership in the advance of benefiting all of the constituency. Religion and politics do not meld and must be completely seperated from rational thinking.
“Religion” might be useful in helping form one’s character. One’s character should include charity towards others and a humane way of being in the world.
I grew up an Episcopalian, and lost my faith at about the age of eight or nine, when I realized the beneficent ‘Almighty’ would not save the starving children in Nigeria (Biafra.) I continued to read the Bible, not as a source of Divine inspiration, but as a collection of stories, some brutal and some enlightening, about the human condition. Although now a devout atheist, I still try to follow the teachings of Christ concerning how we should treat each other and our planet.
That so many, if not all, Republicans (citizens and politicians alike,) belie their Christian credentials with their actions make it had to see some better way for this country. That SCOTUS conservatives are wholly-owned by Roman Catholic doctrine (and Opus Dei extremism) only reinforces this view.
Lastly, I find the term ‘illegals’ as derogatory and hateful as the ‘N’ word, and every time I see or hear an anti-immigration Republican use that word, it is clearly enunciated to be derogatory and hateful.
Derek, I agree with everything you say, but Biafra was a breakaway state in southeast Nigeria and existed for 3 years (1967-70) of bloodshed and horror before being reabsorbed into Nigeria.
I am attempting to decipher from this superstitious story just enough to determine if you think we should treat all humans with kindness and respect. Please, enough with the fabricated fables of a few monks in towers who wanted to control the unruly rabble of their time.
Do you believe that a human being should be classified as an "illegal" and therefore be treated as a subhuman? Do you think we have the right to be cruel to others? This is the subject of the letter today.
I would fight to the death for your right to hold the "religious" views expressed here. But you must realize that it all sounds as reasonable to many people as the conspiracies of QANON or the worship of trees. (I do really like and hug the occasional tree)
Personally, I prefer the Flying Spaghetti Monster idea. He boiled for our sins! First, nobody has ever died in his name. Second, the food and booze are great. And third, Pastafarian "Hell" just means you will drink flat beer for eternity. Not great but no fires and torture.
Pastafarians have only one dogma: NO DOGMA ALLOWED. And while we can mock other faiths for their foolish and funny beliefs, it is required that we be NICE to everyone. What's not to like? Try us out. We have a 30 day warranty. If it doesn't work for you, we are sure your old time religion will welcome you back.
My most detailed understanding of hell comes from Milton's Paradise Lost, and it says nothing about there being different levels for different devils. I've not read any Jerry Falwell or Kenneth Copeland (or whoever), so I may be missing some critical insight there.
I will say this, however...assuming that there is such a thing as a Satan, he (she?) most certainly created all religions. This is not to say there is no divine presence in the cosmos, only that we cannot possibly clothe it in our language and our doctrines such that we know when we're right and everyone else is wrong.
The compartmentalized hell thing comes, I believe, from Dante's Inferno. It's very detailed. Hell really is just a separation from the God of your understanding. That is the source of almost all the pain there is in the world. We try to fill that void with stuff (greed and addiction), and try to control others to feel secure (power, cruelty, lust, etc.). The seven deadly sins pretty much cover it.
All religions are spirituality expressed through politics. Religions can lose their way just like people do. All science is really curiosity expressed through politics. Science can be sublime and unbelievably callous. Politics is what happens when there is more than one person in a room at the same time. It is the center of any cooperative action, be it destructive, generative, or simply bureaucratic. Our founders separated church and state because they saw the abuses that happened under state religions in Europe (and in North America as well). It was a wise move that allowed the spiritual, material, intellectual, and political realms of human endeavor to flourish more fully than almost at point or place in human history - imperfectly, yes, but flourish is the best word for it.
Many of our Republican brothers and sisters have lost their way. The destruction of their party will be the result. They will have to pick up the pieces of their broken dreams and make new ones. It is up to us to help them find a way to do this that includes all of us, this time.
Thanks, Steve, thoughtful comment. I might add that without some system of beliefs that seems to explain our existence and our meaning, we are left contemplating life without .... us. What will become of our practically limitless capacity to imagine things when our clock runs out? Where will my thoughts end up?
So religious belief can provide comfort, but it really explains nothing. Science can actually make our lives better if we use it well, but not even that can resolve our fear of not existing.
I have long wondered why folks don’t have angst about not “being here” before they existed….maybe we just return to the “something/nothing” we were before (recycled mater) we came to be. Dunno…..
We return to stardust, which is where we began.
Barbara, that is an interesting thought. I figure what is done is done, and if the done things don't satisfy us, we can try to rectify them, but that can only happen in a future which begins in the ever-fleeting now. I rationalize most of the dumb-ass things I have said and done -- and their consequences -- with "the best lessons are learned the hard way", probably more profound than "it is what it is", but not by much. Debilitating angst only comes to me when people I love seem to be on their last legs and time accelerates, but I'm working on it.
Shame on me, but I've not yet read Dante's Inferno. Perhaps I should make time for it while I'm still above room temperature.
I'm still trying to figure out the spirituality thing, and the result of all my searching and questioning and pondering is that I have become much less reductionist and much more open to the possibility that no human being is equipped to truly grasp the infinite, the transcendent (divine). In fact, when one claims to understand the divine, it is certainly not the divine that person has understood. Whatever "truth" there is to be found is found in the act of seeking itself, not in the presumption of knowing.
I read "Tao: The Watercourse Way," by Alan Watts last spring and found it wonderfully illuminating in ways I had not previously considered. I love when that happens.
I am also intrigued by the writings of Simone Weil:
“There is a reality outside the world, outside space and time, outside man’s mental universe. Corresponding to this reality, at the center of the human heart, is the longing for an absolute good, a longing which is always there, and is never appeased by any object in this world. This reality is the sole source of all beauty, all truth, all justice, all legitimacy, and all order. It is beyond the reach of any human faculty, but we have the power to turn our love and our attention towards it. It is through minds so turned that good comes into the world. “
—Simone Weil
In Hindi, there is the phrase "neti neti", which means "not this, not that". It is used to describe the nature of Brahman, or reality, or God, or the ineffable. It seems to be used kind of like a verbal shrug. As for me, the universe makes no sense without love.
Kenneth,
I have concluded hell is an invention of the early religions so that the designers of said religions could scare people with some kind of eternal punishment if the people in those religions did not follow whatever edicts the men in those religions laid out.
Hell was just a fake to control people.
I have seen it used in EXACTLY that way in my old stomping grounds of East Texas back in the day.
Hellfire & Brimstone can be traced back to Greek Mythology, where they lived with such volcanic activity. Hades contrasted with the Sky Wizard Zeus who meddled in the affairs of mortals. That was plagiarized by Christian Mythology to control their flock with terror & reward.
A well known author Elizabeth Kubler Ross describes hell in the following. Taking Hitler as an example. He will be placed in the presents of God/Higher Power. In the presents of the God he will understand what God knows, all love and all knowledge. With that knowledge he will then have to witness, feel and understand the impact of his cruelty and perversion to every single person on earth. And the hate, the fear and the pain experienced by all people affected by his actions throughout earthy time. I think Hitler is still experiencing the evil spread he spread on the universe.
A Jewish friend said that Hell is existing with out God. For an ever lasting time.
I am not much of a writer.
Who says, Bonnie?
Bonnie,
You might enjoy watching the Twilight Zone episode: "Judgement Night." I'm sure you can find it somewhere online.
I know that cruelty is evil. And I know who uses cruelty for their “wins.”
Satan is Lucifer. In the premortal world, our Heavenly Father created a plan for all of His children to come to earth, gain a physical body and be tested to see if we would be faithful and desire to return to Him after our death. His plan was for us to have agency, be able to decide for ourselves how we would live.
He knew not everyone would make the right choices, but that was there choice, and so provided a Savior for us who would take upon Himself all of our sin, grief, sorrow, pain, suffering, everything if we would repent and follow Him and His teachings. If they didn't, they suffered the consequences of not returning to the Celestial Kingdom, where God dwells, but, depending on the life we live, a different place in heaven.
Lucifer's plan was to force us all to live a perfect life so we would all return to heaven. But he was to receive all the glory. The Father rejected this plan and there was a war in heaven, which Lucifer (Satan) lost and he and one third of the hosts of heaven were expelled from the premortal world, sent to live in Satan's realm. (Think of the number of people who have lived, are living and will continue to live on the earth, then consider the number "one third: of all of that number. That number of people have been tempting people since the beginning of the earth. They have at least 7,000 years of experience.) They have been tempting all humans beginning with Adam and Eve to keep us from being true to our covenants to return to our Heavenly Father and Christ. The Church of Jesus Christ knows this doctrine to be true. Jesus Christ, Himself, taught it...given to living prophets.
For god's sake get religion of any and all kinds out of the business of politics. Religion, no matter which 'holy' leader one wants to believe, has its place and its purpose, however anything based on faith and empty of anything else is useless when it comes to real life and living. Politics, on the other hand, is the practice of following the societial/cultural leadership in the advance of benefiting all of the constituency. Religion and politics do not meld and must be completely seperated from rational thinking.
“Religion” might be useful in helping form one’s character. One’s character should include charity towards others and a humane way of being in the world.
I grew up an Episcopalian, and lost my faith at about the age of eight or nine, when I realized the beneficent ‘Almighty’ would not save the starving children in Nigeria (Biafra.) I continued to read the Bible, not as a source of Divine inspiration, but as a collection of stories, some brutal and some enlightening, about the human condition. Although now a devout atheist, I still try to follow the teachings of Christ concerning how we should treat each other and our planet.
That so many, if not all, Republicans (citizens and politicians alike,) belie their Christian credentials with their actions make it had to see some better way for this country. That SCOTUS conservatives are wholly-owned by Roman Catholic doctrine (and Opus Dei extremism) only reinforces this view.
Lastly, I find the term ‘illegals’ as derogatory and hateful as the ‘N’ word, and every time I see or hear an anti-immigration Republican use that word, it is clearly enunciated to be derogatory and hateful.
Derek, I agree with everything you say, but Biafra was a breakaway state in southeast Nigeria and existed for 3 years (1967-70) of bloodshed and horror before being reabsorbed into Nigeria.
Thank you. Verified and corrected.
Is "Smug" your cat?
Which the R's have pretty much abandoned with glee and rejoice in doing so..
Lordy, no wonder we should keep religion out of politics, and, thank god, my life
I am attempting to decipher from this superstitious story just enough to determine if you think we should treat all humans with kindness and respect. Please, enough with the fabricated fables of a few monks in towers who wanted to control the unruly rabble of their time.
Do you believe that a human being should be classified as an "illegal" and therefore be treated as a subhuman? Do you think we have the right to be cruel to others? This is the subject of the letter today.
I would fight to the death for your right to hold the "religious" views expressed here. But you must realize that it all sounds as reasonable to many people as the conspiracies of QANON or the worship of trees. (I do really like and hug the occasional tree)
Personally, I prefer the Flying Spaghetti Monster idea. He boiled for our sins! First, nobody has ever died in his name. Second, the food and booze are great. And third, Pastafarian "Hell" just means you will drink flat beer for eternity. Not great but no fires and torture.
Pastafarians have only one dogma: NO DOGMA ALLOWED. And while we can mock other faiths for their foolish and funny beliefs, it is required that we be NICE to everyone. What's not to like? Try us out. We have a 30 day warranty. If it doesn't work for you, we are sure your old time religion will welcome you back.
https://www.spaghettimonster.org/
Bill Alstrom "Personally, I prefer the Flying Spaghetti Monster idea. He boiled for our sins!"
<semi-off topic> Many have died for our sins:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY_a-HjdiOE
For the lies that were spoken
For the blood we have spilled
For the treaties that we broken
For the leaders you have stilled
Custer died for your sin
Custer died for your sin
Now a new day must begin
Custer died for your sin
For the tribes you terminated
For the myth you keep alive
For the land you confiscated
For our freedom you deprived
Custer died for your sin
Custer died for your sin
Now a new day must begin
Custer died for your sin
For the truth that you pollute
For the life that you have cost
For the good you prostitute
And for all that we have lost
Custer died for your sin
Custer died for your sin
Now a new day must begin
I have a CD with Floyd Red Crow Westerman singing this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY_a-HjdiOE
Ya gotta love the Spaghetti Monster!
May The Force be with you!
Carbo Diem and RAmen :)
Fair enough. After all, one immortality project is as good as the next.
But say...where can a fella get some really good Mexican food around here?
E. Dransfield, are you sure?
Excellent conclusion. The "levels of hell" concept is a reference to Dante.