MLMinET, I too grew up in a conservative household and I have sometimes wondered how I got past that. I was lucky early on to have my first grade teacher and her husband in my life and as lifelong friends. They were very different in their view of things and somehow I absorbed some of that. Also I saw my first racial incident when I was …
MLMinET, I too grew up in a conservative household and I have sometimes wondered how I got past that. I was lucky early on to have my first grade teacher and her husband in my life and as lifelong friends. They were very different in their view of things and somehow I absorbed some of that. Also I saw my first racial incident when I was about seven in Chicago and I thought it was so wrong and unfair and that stayed with me. By the time I registered to vote the first time (as a R as my father was standing over me), I knew that I was not a R and would never vote for them at the national level. Then I went for three years to the Peace Corps in Sierra Leone and that changed my life further. Every time i went back to visit my father, he would initiate a political argument and I am sure he thought he had failed to raise me right. I did vote for a few Rs here in Oregon, but then the R party was so anathema to me that I have stopped voting for them ever and I do vote in every election including school boards. Even my next door neighbor who was a R pol at the county level can't stand the party anymore and is registered as an I although I think he votes mostly D if not entirely D now. The neighbors in back of us were once Rs and they will not vote for them anymore. However, we have plenty of wing nuts in this area.
Great insight, thanks for sharing. Sometimes I think people like your Dad still think the Republican party is the party it used to be 50 years ago vs the party of today. They seem to be in a little bit of denial, or conservative media has made it seem like being Republican to them means they are a good person, and since they are good people it means the R party is de-facto good. I dunno, just morning thoughts.
My dad passed away several years ago. I do wonder what he would make of death star and what the R party has become. However, he did listen to Limbaugh and asked me is I did. You can imagine my reply. He wanted to know why not and I had to explain how I was 180 degrees from those views.
My dad died 5 years ago and was very concerned with world affairs. Twitched in his seat all of the time. He was a republican but politics were never spoken. I often wonder what he would think about what was going on now.
I agree with your morning thoughts about media making R’s feel like they are the good guys. And their party. They would certainly be the good guys compared to evil Democrat pedophiles who drink children’s blood. Not a high bar, though.
Along with conservative media, I fault self-described Christian churches for their focus on personal salvation and prosperity. Relatively little attention to what Jesus taught about how to be a good person.
My parents and some family and family friends, I fear are stuck in that thinking too…these are not bad people, they are not without compassion…but to talk to them, it’s like they are stuck in a time warp and can’t see the reality of their party today.
For a time, when Hatfield and Packwood were our senators, I also voted for them. I liked what Hatfield had done as Governor and felt they both represented the state well. Then Packwood got into his stupid man trouble and we got Ron Wyden, and when Hatfield retired we got Gordon Smith. I always admired how those two men worked together for Oregon and I never voted for Smith because of his prejudices.
Likewise. We had a suit going agains our principal and our attorneys were also the attorneys for the Packwood women. I am very pleased with our Senators now. I had to hold my nose and vote for Schraeder because the the Rs were even worse. Now we are in a new district represented by Salinas. But on the state level, we got switched to districts that will probably never elect a D. Our rep is a total wing nut.
I never forgave Packwood for ousting Wayne Morse...
I was actually a Young Republican in High School...however I graduated in 1964 so that was a completely different Republican party!
My first opportunity to vote was the day after my 21st birthday in 1966; I voted for Mark Hatfield for Senator and Tom McCall for Govenor, both Republicans. But they were "Oregon Republicans"; I have never voted for a Republican presidential candidate.
My parents, may they rest in peace and bless their repub hearts, made sure to send me an absentee ballot when I was in school at Indiana University. I used it to vote for the dem (was that McGovern?) I have wondered many times what they would make of today's repub party. I'd like to think the repubs have gone too far over the cliff for them, but I can't say for sure for my mother.
Ill at ease with the term "progressive" because of mistrust for the quasi-religious belief in "Progress" enshrined in 19th century positivism.
I am quite willing to accept being "progressive" in the humblest, most basic sense.
I see free choice as a single one. Not even a fork in the road. One road, two directions. One that leads us away from the truth of what we are towards all that we are not. The other, step by step towards finding our true nature.
I support most progressive causes, but I know progress is slow and I hold the far left in part responsible for our taking steps backwards because among other things, they didn't seem to realize the importance of having a sane person picking Supreme Court justices. Even after death star was elected, I was in a conversation with someone who didn't seem to understand that being a true believer on the left accounted in part, for the election of death star. Tried to mansplain American foreign policy to me, a history major who had taken a course in American foreign policy and was well aware of our foreign policy sins. Haven't heard from him since which is too bad because I liked him and he completely redid our house inside and was worth every penny. But his mother listened to, as one of his brothers called it, slit your wrist radio, KBOO in Portland. I did love it when one of my wing nut ex-classmates cited KBOO.
I don’t believe there is a they, a “progressives”. I am not afraid of saying that I am a progressive or I am progressive, meaning in my views. That does not mean I belong to some coherent group or party. Nor does it mean I am “far left” or agree with those that are being so called. It’s all about putting people in baskets that don’t help, that instead may or do divide. By and large the far left and progressives in general have been pragmatic because of the danger of Trump. Maybe I am wrong or will be if they continue to oppose Biden.
I don't agree with you in terms of what I term far left. They did aid and abet the election of death star. Locally they continued to diss Biden despite what he was doing in terms of being inclusive in his appointments and standing up for ordinary American. When people are at the extreme end of the political spectrum, they actually are very much the same in terms of not finding a compromise that could move us forward. So now no Roe. And who knows what this court will do in terms of fair and equal treatment and the environment, etc. In fact, despite warnings about Supreme Court selections in 2016, they dissed HRC, and then they either didn't vote for voted for Jill not green Stein. And I will put those people in extremist baskets because that's where they are just as some people are in the MAGA basket I am not afraid to say that I have progressive views either. I vote for Ds because they are the only option. Anyone else only helps Rs and they are off the rails for the most part. I think we have had this discussion before and I am not going to change my mind or apologize for placing certain people along the political spectrum.
There are absolute priorities, but it is essential that we not permit ourselves to be sidelined by appearances like the presence of one representing the deepest Green values into unintentionally enabling the greatest universal harm possible: the election of that bumbling gone-to-seed lunatic, frontman for national suicide.
You are putting the extreme right and the extreme left in the same basket and that is unfair and wrong. They are not the same. The extreme left if such an organized group exists, is nowhere near the very organized extreme right in organization and tactics.
I don't know who you or anyone term or label the far left. It's nebulous and amorphous. And it's a convenient way to blame.
Moving us forward is what the left has been doing basically. The "left" is a much larger group than the "extreme left". Whatever, folks are idealistic about where we should be going, and often it's not realistic. To the point of voting for a spoiler in the election, I agree, that is very harmful. Nevertheless we need to aim our vision high.
The non-compromising sort, I agree, do harm. But I strongly disagree with the nebulous and amorphous characterization.
Sometimes you need the extreme to hold the line as well. Compromisers have done harm too. This country has been moving slowly ever more right because the Democrats compromise and the Republicans propagandize threaten and hold hostage. Obama was a centrist and seen as weak especially after his talk of being "bold and audacious". Clinton "triangulated", moved to the right.
Insofar as we have no Roe ( which was a compromise to begin with!!!) whose fault is that as you are blaming? Whose fault is this SCOTUS? Who did not fight hard enough? The Republicans all became radical right and partisan, while the Democrats remained compromisers centrists, left and far left to democratic socialists ( Bernie Sanders). Sanders had a lot of support, including mine.
Your opinion, not mine. They have the same mind set of no compromise and that's what I'm talking about. I am not calling all people on the left extreme. I could give you some local examples, but they would not mean anything to you. For Roe I am blaming the Supreme Court and Mitch who would bring Garland forward and then we got death star who chose three unworthy people and made it easy to get the votes to end Roe. If you want to lose an election, call yourself a socialist even though people do not understand it. I never supported Bernie and I saw some of his local supporters try to pull a fast one at the local D county meeting. I felt sorry for the poos gal who was their candidate while they would run things. Then they insulted a very good person, long time activist D, by implying she would not count the votes accurately. They went down big time, btw. Frankly, they were two very loud egos. I would been OK with Bernie, but the behavior of some of his supporters turned me off. I am not a Bill Clinton fan either. I am well aware of the shortcoming of recent D presidents and they are still better than death star. I know what you think and we disagree. End of conversation as far as I am concerned.
I have a big problem with your "they". "They" this and "they" that. "They" have compromised!
This is not a coherent organized group. It's a political point of view, a constellation of views, that some on the far left share in part. I would say many people would say they agree about progressive policies. Some people are afraid to call themselves progressive because the Right has made it a pejorative... and maybe too some on the Left. But the Left understands tolerates and respects progressives who are also tolerant and practical MOSTLY when push comes to shove lately. The days of Nader, of spoilers, are gone. Hopefully RFK,Jr.is not worth bothering about. There are "off" people, voters and wannabe leaders in every party
I remember that Sanders supporters incident. You remember the bad stuff well and carry it on. That was an isolated incident I believe. Sanders had energized support.
*Even Trump's supporters come in all shades. I am sorry but your use of 'death star' is not cute.
All those cute names the other immature political side uses are no no better on this side:
from Tom Nichols - The Atlantic
"But the prodemocracy movement must fight with the confidence and maturity of adults:
Ditch all the coy, immature, and too-precious language about former President Donald Trump and the Republicans. No more GQP, no more Qevin McCarthy, no more Rethuglicans and Repuglicans. No more Drumpf. No more Orange Menace … Be the adult alternative to the bedlam around you."
Juvenile nicknames too easily blur the distinction between prodemocracy voters and the people they’re trying to defeat. If you’ve ever had to endure friends or family who parrot Fox-popular terms like Demonrats and Killary and other such nonsense, think for a moment how they instantly communicated to you that you never had to take them seriously again.
MLMinET, I too grew up in a conservative household and I have sometimes wondered how I got past that. I was lucky early on to have my first grade teacher and her husband in my life and as lifelong friends. They were very different in their view of things and somehow I absorbed some of that. Also I saw my first racial incident when I was about seven in Chicago and I thought it was so wrong and unfair and that stayed with me. By the time I registered to vote the first time (as a R as my father was standing over me), I knew that I was not a R and would never vote for them at the national level. Then I went for three years to the Peace Corps in Sierra Leone and that changed my life further. Every time i went back to visit my father, he would initiate a political argument and I am sure he thought he had failed to raise me right. I did vote for a few Rs here in Oregon, but then the R party was so anathema to me that I have stopped voting for them ever and I do vote in every election including school boards. Even my next door neighbor who was a R pol at the county level can't stand the party anymore and is registered as an I although I think he votes mostly D if not entirely D now. The neighbors in back of us were once Rs and they will not vote for them anymore. However, we have plenty of wing nuts in this area.
Great insight, thanks for sharing. Sometimes I think people like your Dad still think the Republican party is the party it used to be 50 years ago vs the party of today. They seem to be in a little bit of denial, or conservative media has made it seem like being Republican to them means they are a good person, and since they are good people it means the R party is de-facto good. I dunno, just morning thoughts.
My dad passed away several years ago. I do wonder what he would make of death star and what the R party has become. However, he did listen to Limbaugh and asked me is I did. You can imagine my reply. He wanted to know why not and I had to explain how I was 180 degrees from those views.
My dad died 5 years ago and was very concerned with world affairs. Twitched in his seat all of the time. He was a republican but politics were never spoken. I often wonder what he would think about what was going on now.
I agree with your morning thoughts about media making R’s feel like they are the good guys. And their party. They would certainly be the good guys compared to evil Democrat pedophiles who drink children’s blood. Not a high bar, though.
Along with conservative media, I fault self-described Christian churches for their focus on personal salvation and prosperity. Relatively little attention to what Jesus taught about how to be a good person.
My parents and some family and family friends, I fear are stuck in that thinking too…these are not bad people, they are not without compassion…but to talk to them, it’s like they are stuck in a time warp and can’t see the reality of their party today.
For a time, when Hatfield and Packwood were our senators, I also voted for them. I liked what Hatfield had done as Governor and felt they both represented the state well. Then Packwood got into his stupid man trouble and we got Ron Wyden, and when Hatfield retired we got Gordon Smith. I always admired how those two men worked together for Oregon and I never voted for Smith because of his prejudices.
Ditto but did not join Peace Corp but don't forget Tom McCall. The 90's and Newt drove me away from even considering a republicon.
Likewise. We had a suit going agains our principal and our attorneys were also the attorneys for the Packwood women. I am very pleased with our Senators now. I had to hold my nose and vote for Schraeder because the the Rs were even worse. Now we are in a new district represented by Salinas. But on the state level, we got switched to districts that will probably never elect a D. Our rep is a total wing nut.
In sympathy. Having lived in Texas when it was purple, I feel sorry for any Democrat (where Is Charlie Crist ?) voting in the state.
How was that new district drawn up?
I think we were sacrificed to get the congressional map the Ds wanted. My political source says we can thank Courtney. Pffft.
The 1979 book The Fear Brokers, by then Senator John McIntyre, had a forward by Hatfield. In it he lists 3 traits of the conservative strategy:
Hypernationalism, Manipulation of religion, and Racism.
David Corn describes how Hatfield was booed by Goldwater supporters at the Republican Convention in American Psychosis.
People like Hatfield were a light at the end of a tunnel, but we're heading away from it, and that light is all but completely gone.
I never forgave Packwood for ousting Wayne Morse...
I was actually a Young Republican in High School...however I graduated in 1964 so that was a completely different Republican party!
My first opportunity to vote was the day after my 21st birthday in 1966; I voted for Mark Hatfield for Senator and Tom McCall for Govenor, both Republicans. But they were "Oregon Republicans"; I have never voted for a Republican presidential candidate.
My parents, may they rest in peace and bless their repub hearts, made sure to send me an absentee ballot when I was in school at Indiana University. I used it to vote for the dem (was that McGovern?) I have wondered many times what they would make of today's repub party. I'd like to think the repubs have gone too far over the cliff for them, but I can't say for sure for my mother.
Ill at ease with the term "progressive" because of mistrust for the quasi-religious belief in "Progress" enshrined in 19th century positivism.
I am quite willing to accept being "progressive" in the humblest, most basic sense.
I see free choice as a single one. Not even a fork in the road. One road, two directions. One that leads us away from the truth of what we are towards all that we are not. The other, step by step towards finding our true nature.
A road all too often not taken...
I hope others read these words you have just written and find them as refreshing as I do.
No need to bother with identification labels, just to be ourselves and keep putting one foot before the other.
Something surprising in this community, finding people who are just as they are, unashamedly free and straightforward.
I hope that you and everyone who tries to live like this will keep it up.
I support most progressive causes, but I know progress is slow and I hold the far left in part responsible for our taking steps backwards because among other things, they didn't seem to realize the importance of having a sane person picking Supreme Court justices. Even after death star was elected, I was in a conversation with someone who didn't seem to understand that being a true believer on the left accounted in part, for the election of death star. Tried to mansplain American foreign policy to me, a history major who had taken a course in American foreign policy and was well aware of our foreign policy sins. Haven't heard from him since which is too bad because I liked him and he completely redid our house inside and was worth every penny. But his mother listened to, as one of his brothers called it, slit your wrist radio, KBOO in Portland. I did love it when one of my wing nut ex-classmates cited KBOO.
I don’t believe there is a they, a “progressives”. I am not afraid of saying that I am a progressive or I am progressive, meaning in my views. That does not mean I belong to some coherent group or party. Nor does it mean I am “far left” or agree with those that are being so called. It’s all about putting people in baskets that don’t help, that instead may or do divide. By and large the far left and progressives in general have been pragmatic because of the danger of Trump. Maybe I am wrong or will be if they continue to oppose Biden.
I don't agree with you in terms of what I term far left. They did aid and abet the election of death star. Locally they continued to diss Biden despite what he was doing in terms of being inclusive in his appointments and standing up for ordinary American. When people are at the extreme end of the political spectrum, they actually are very much the same in terms of not finding a compromise that could move us forward. So now no Roe. And who knows what this court will do in terms of fair and equal treatment and the environment, etc. In fact, despite warnings about Supreme Court selections in 2016, they dissed HRC, and then they either didn't vote for voted for Jill not green Stein. And I will put those people in extremist baskets because that's where they are just as some people are in the MAGA basket I am not afraid to say that I have progressive views either. I vote for Ds because they are the only option. Anyone else only helps Rs and they are off the rails for the most part. I think we have had this discussion before and I am not going to change my mind or apologize for placing certain people along the political spectrum.
There are absolute priorities, but it is essential that we not permit ourselves to be sidelined by appearances like the presence of one representing the deepest Green values into unintentionally enabling the greatest universal harm possible: the election of that bumbling gone-to-seed lunatic, frontman for national suicide.
Agreed.
You are putting the extreme right and the extreme left in the same basket and that is unfair and wrong. They are not the same. The extreme left if such an organized group exists, is nowhere near the very organized extreme right in organization and tactics.
I don't know who you or anyone term or label the far left. It's nebulous and amorphous. And it's a convenient way to blame.
Moving us forward is what the left has been doing basically. The "left" is a much larger group than the "extreme left". Whatever, folks are idealistic about where we should be going, and often it's not realistic. To the point of voting for a spoiler in the election, I agree, that is very harmful. Nevertheless we need to aim our vision high.
The non-compromising sort, I agree, do harm. But I strongly disagree with the nebulous and amorphous characterization.
Sometimes you need the extreme to hold the line as well. Compromisers have done harm too. This country has been moving slowly ever more right because the Democrats compromise and the Republicans propagandize threaten and hold hostage. Obama was a centrist and seen as weak especially after his talk of being "bold and audacious". Clinton "triangulated", moved to the right.
Insofar as we have no Roe ( which was a compromise to begin with!!!) whose fault is that as you are blaming? Whose fault is this SCOTUS? Who did not fight hard enough? The Republicans all became radical right and partisan, while the Democrats remained compromisers centrists, left and far left to democratic socialists ( Bernie Sanders). Sanders had a lot of support, including mine.
Your opinion, not mine. They have the same mind set of no compromise and that's what I'm talking about. I am not calling all people on the left extreme. I could give you some local examples, but they would not mean anything to you. For Roe I am blaming the Supreme Court and Mitch who would bring Garland forward and then we got death star who chose three unworthy people and made it easy to get the votes to end Roe. If you want to lose an election, call yourself a socialist even though people do not understand it. I never supported Bernie and I saw some of his local supporters try to pull a fast one at the local D county meeting. I felt sorry for the poos gal who was their candidate while they would run things. Then they insulted a very good person, long time activist D, by implying she would not count the votes accurately. They went down big time, btw. Frankly, they were two very loud egos. I would been OK with Bernie, but the behavior of some of his supporters turned me off. I am not a Bill Clinton fan either. I am well aware of the shortcoming of recent D presidents and they are still better than death star. I know what you think and we disagree. End of conversation as far as I am concerned.
I have a big problem with your "they". "They" this and "they" that. "They" have compromised!
This is not a coherent organized group. It's a political point of view, a constellation of views, that some on the far left share in part. I would say many people would say they agree about progressive policies. Some people are afraid to call themselves progressive because the Right has made it a pejorative... and maybe too some on the Left. But the Left understands tolerates and respects progressives who are also tolerant and practical MOSTLY when push comes to shove lately. The days of Nader, of spoilers, are gone. Hopefully RFK,Jr.is not worth bothering about. There are "off" people, voters and wannabe leaders in every party
I remember that Sanders supporters incident. You remember the bad stuff well and carry it on. That was an isolated incident I believe. Sanders had energized support.
*Even Trump's supporters come in all shades. I am sorry but your use of 'death star' is not cute.
All those cute names the other immature political side uses are no no better on this side:
from Tom Nichols - The Atlantic
"But the prodemocracy movement must fight with the confidence and maturity of adults:
Ditch all the coy, immature, and too-precious language about former President Donald Trump and the Republicans. No more GQP, no more Qevin McCarthy, no more Rethuglicans and Repuglicans. No more Drumpf. No more Orange Menace … Be the adult alternative to the bedlam around you."
Juvenile nicknames too easily blur the distinction between prodemocracy voters and the people they’re trying to defeat. If you’ve ever had to endure friends or family who parrot Fox-popular terms like Demonrats and Killary and other such nonsense, think for a moment how they instantly communicated to you that you never had to take them seriously again.