I am in another time zone, and my daughter and I have already voted from Germany. I did not need to watch the debate to see who I was voting for. I was sleeping during the debate. I am not surprised at what I am reading about it. I am team Harris-Walz all the way, as is my daughter. We are both members of Democrats Abroad. Now is the time for people like Mitt Romney, who is saying he will have to leave the country if Trump gets elected, and is worried for his 5 sons, their 5 wives, his 25 grandchildren and 2 great-grand-children to stop just complaining about Trump and take a stand to support Kamala and Tim, knowing that what unites us as patriots is greater than what divides us.
I totally agree Linda! We are in Spain and we voted by absentee ballot a week or so ago. I also belong to Democrats Abroad. It's a good organization. Mitt Romney is such a wimp. He won't stick his neck out and just say, ENOUGH, but he claims to be worried about his family. How about worrying about all of ours and his constituents too? He needs to take a stand on the side of democracy!
Well, in a way, I do hate to say this about republicans, because many now are doing exactly what Linda Weide wishes for them to do. Michael Steele, Liz Cheney (who would ever have guessed that I would give her and her father Kudos) Nancy Kassebaum just to name a few, and even now, the flake of all flakes for not blocking Brett Kavanaugh when he had the chance to do it, Jeff Flake from Arizona. Better late than never, I suppose, but the left wouldn't be this deep in SCOTUS trouble had Jeff Flake done what *I know in my gut he was thinking of doing* but didn't have the cajónes to do it. I suppose we should gratefully accept late gifts even if they're.... well...late.
Hi Kathy, I know about the LDS for Harris/Walz group, and that there are Republicans for Harris/Walz that are led by LDS members. However, having a big name like Romney's endorse Harris, would be a powerful.
I would also like to see President Bush make an endorsement. I thought I heard yesterday that President Carter is ready to join Rosalyn but is hanging in there so he can vote for Vice President Harris. Quite an endorsement, if it is not apocryphal.
I have many friends in Lincoln, NE who are Mormon. We used to play tennis together and they tried to persuade me to join the church.
But, Utah and Idaho seem to elect Republicans in spite of the quality of the candidates. Hopefully, Mitt Romney and other prominent Republicans will come around and support Harris/Walz.
4. Longshoremen strike that could have severe economic consequences if not ended
These issues serve to confuse the dim-wits feeling that a new administration will end the problems. Of course we know it won’t. My hope is Biden ends the strike and forces both sides to the table.
This is the world. There will always be a conflict somewhere. There will also be issues here at home. The point is not to have zero conflict or problems but how does a President handle what comes across their desk?
When O'Connell and Brennan started off with a list of the events du jour, I thought, this is really no different than in any other election. S*** happens.
I think k you missed my point which is to create an environment most conducive for voting. Most people do not use reason when they vote. Always remember this.
That's what I was thinking last night during the debate. It's not what they say, it's how they look. Unfortunately, the spawn of the devil looked better: younger, stronger, better outfit....sickening.
I quit watching the debate after the first half hour. Walz did well, and of course, Vance lied his ass off, but he gave a polished performance. Sadly, most people focus on form rather than substance, so I’m sure many undecided voters preferred Vance over Walz. That used car you’re thinking about buying may look pretty good and the salesperson may make it sound like a real winner, but get a mechanic to check under the hood—you may learn that it’s a nightmare with a nice paint job.
I’m a pragmatic optimist. We can never end evil acts by bad actors or destructive acts caused by nature and climate. I fully embrace the concept of “harm reduction”. This approach requires some compromises and is direct opposition to laws based on prejudice, privilege, power, religion or politics that use prohibition style approaches to every problem. I have to wonder why we act surprised when these types of laws or “three strikes you’re out” laws fail.
Collective bargaining (and unions) are the primary tools to provide fair wages, safe working conditions and quality of services and products.
In my opinion, fair wages reflect some percentage of profit being passed on to workers in the form of higher wages or production and quality of work bonuses.
When those at the top of the profit ladder set record profits some percentage of that needs to be shared with the workers who make that possible.
I think it will. An awful lot of folks believe to differing degrees that a U.S. president needs only wave a magic wand and cure all or most troubles / problems. The attraction of MAGA, is that we minimize U.S. problems by only focusing on U.S. problems, as though we are some planet apart from earth. Ridiculous, but guess who got elected on that and religion, assorted other partial truths, lies, etc., etc.
We need to stop feeding the fire in the Middle East. Unconditional support of Israel as victim here is not working or compatible with the picture show. The difference between Israel defending itself and protecting its right to occupy more land ( which is what this is about) is lost. Biden is not able to communicate that. Kamala is stuck supporting Biden now making careful statments,
Those hit by the hurricanes need and get government relief and this is a matter of getting the message across. It could be a win.
Helping Ukraine is vital---more messaging needed.
Longshoremen want support- unions need support.. to an extent. This is democracy.
Well stated down the line, Potter. Thank you. On messaging, I wonder if this debate was like that of 1960 between Presidents Kennedy and Nixon. Those who watched it on television; tended to favour then Senator Kennedy. those who listened on the radio leaned toward then Vice President Nixon.
Yes, people are using two different ways of judging a person. The radio medium causes you to just listen to the words. The TV medium you are looking at demeanor, appearance, body language.
Regardless. It’s not good for business, as they say. In 1968, we tossed aside the most progressive administration since FDR and Abraham Lincoln because our conscience had finally shown the ignorance of Vietnam. Today we have the ignorance of Ukraine that didn’t need to be engaged. A simple No NATO would have sufficed. We never needed Ukraine in NATO. And the fact is that part of the negotiations will be a no nato promise so where was the gain?
We threw out the baby with the bath water in 1968 and hired Nixon. But Nixon doesn’t compare to Trump. If he gets in, it really ends granted, an imperfect
republic. It’s over.
Everything that Biden does from not on should be to benefit Harris. Using Taft/Hartley is a must to suspend the strike. My guess is he will call on his working class roots (I’m for the little guy) and not end the longshoremen who are not even voting for the democrats. Irony of ironies.
That is what I meant when I said it seemed intentional. They are going to work Biden for all they can get, and then vote for Trump, not understanding that gains under Biden can be lost right away under Trump/Vance.
As I sit in my front yard as usual sipping coffee after feeding the hungry herd of once 7 homeless cats (maybe I should eat one) and watch squirrels race back and forth across the street. I wonder how often these squirrels tempt their fate since one day a squirrel will run across then turn around seeing a car coming then turn around again only to get squished. Just like us humans.
wrong across the board.... Do you know what will or won't benefit Harris? Ukraine is a helluva lot more important than Israel at the moment. But the picture show has moved to Israel. Biden is backing Israel's occupation in effect, not it's security.And yes that does relate to getting votes for Harris because of the "pro Israel" vote here still wrongfully claiming it's all about October 7th. October 7th was about the occupation. Ukraine NATO happened after it was proved that the Budapest Agreement guaranteeing security for the country after it gave up its nukes, was not working. Ukraine needs a nuclear umbrella. Or else we have a Neanderthal world where might makes right with no basic laws and rules internationally.. AND nuclear proliferation.
The message must be- democracy-- here about the right to strike included.
If Trump gets in, which he should not be allowed to constitutionally, there will be violence... either way.
Well, I’m ready to volunteer. The New Very Old Gray Panthers. Watch out for them they are dangerous. On command, they will turn around unison, bend over and fart from up wind there destroying any who happen to be down wind. The MAGAs will fall.
Biden won't invoke the Taft-Hartley Act to end the strike because he's on the side of the union workers in the face of automation, while the corporations and the people who run them have made fortunes. Remember, he was the first U.S. president to join a picket line at the UAW auto strike in September of 2023.
Also, Trump is cozy with the president of the union leading the strike, and they were more than happy to offer this October surprise.
Bill… I guess you missed the fact that the head of the dockworkers union was at Mar Amato 4 days ago… interestingly right after the hurricane… and maybe you also missed the fact that Netanyahu is in the same position as Trump in his country (he needs to remain in power or face jail time) and also recently met with Trump. Oh… and what timing for Russian backed Iran to fire missiles into Israel… such a barrage yet the only damage was 2 people hurt by shrapnel. Connect the dots Bill. This is all election interference and scare tactics. Annoying and frustrating but we must not be bullied or distracted by a bunch of greedy lying thieves.
Good points, Bill. Thank you. These events make debates more challenging for the Democratic ticket. What is a shame is that the message of the Middle East should be clear about foreign policy: while the United States is the most powerful country militarily, our influence only goes so far , , , and that is not far.
The dock-workers have a right for collective bargaining. Knowing President Biden's pro-Labor sympathies, the timing may be a gamble to induce President Biden to jaw-bone the management. Governor Gipper shone when he drove home the message that we need to work together for the good of all.
I am not sure that the natural disaster will hurt the ticket's prospects. President Biden is managing the situation quite well and Republican governors are thanking his Administration. The Democratic ticket should emphasize how state and local Republican politicoes are fact-checking the Republican ticket in real-time.
I shall repeat this to my fellow democrats even though you don’t want to hear it and don’t like to hear it. Two major faults of the Biden administration that is going to follow him and her into the election:
1. There didn’t need to be a war in Ukraine. It wasn’t necessary. Putin demanded no NATO and we wouldn’t give it to him. Our secretary of defense quipped after the war began “Now we will run the military down.” That was the best he could manage. We are encouraging a war in order to run the military.
2. Biden was absent on the souther border and I know most of you heartily disagree. But he was until earlier this year. If Harris does t win, these two issues are the real ones that could have been avoided. The other issues we have had no control over. Of course, my opinion you may disagree. As you will.
No, I tend to agree with you, Bill, and appreciate your raising uncomfortable points. Denial will not work.🤝
B.L.U.F. (bottom-line, up-front): I am not particularly smart; at least, not nearly as smart as I like to believe me to be. But I have time to chew the cud. 🤫
There are responses to each point you raise, Bill, except, perhaps, for the strike. With several salient debates on the table, the messaging has to be discrete. One bite at a time. Pick the settings to answer only one point, in depth, at each outing; then focus on the future. 🔍
The rationale is that people are not dim-witted; they simply have too little time, in many or most cases, to be generalists. Educate the voters; doing so with all issues at once may be confusing events and argumentation in voters' mind, leaving the impression of muddled politics. 💡
I knew the Longshoremen chose to strike right now just to mess up the Dems in the election. Isn't that still a mob controlled union, and Trump is connected to both Traditional US mob and the Russian mob from what I read. I agree that Biden should end the strike and force both sides to the table. That might be a good union to get people training to do other things as automation takes over their jobs. In the Bulwark, as Tim Miller, Sarah Longwell, and Jonathan Last discussed the debate, they also discussed how the campaigns are doing and the strategies. Since I know Tim and Sarah worked for Republican campaigns before he became a democrat, and she an anti-Trump Republican they have a good knowledge of Republican voters. She in fact leads Republican Voters Against Trump, and has a big ad blitz coming out in 48 states in both videos and billboards. They know they need to get the vote out. Anyway, they discuss the effects that the strike and the escalated war will have. https://www.thebulwark.com/p/so-much-rage?utm_source=podcast-email&publication_id=87281&post_id=149718409&utm_campaign=email-play-on-substack&utm_content=watch_now_gif&r=f0qfn&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
Andra Watkins talks about the effects on people that Hurricane Helene would have if it were to take place a year from now and Trump were president and had enacted Project 2025, where FEMA no longer helps out with hurricane damage, maybe 25% but localities have to pay for 75%, and no more government flood insurance.
That alone will be devastating, but add to that the humanitarian and financial disaster of deporting millions of so called illegals and you find that there is no one to help with clean up and rebuilding either, and people will be poorer because the tax base will be lower and the taxes higher. Goods will be less available because of the high tariffs, and people will have less child care, public schools may not exist, and child labor will be back in a big way. So, that disaster should be an opportunity to inform people what is planned with Project 2025, and that Trump is a big climate change denier.
...and the reason public schools may well not exist is ALEC (American Legislative Exchange Councill, which was co-founded by conservative activist Paul Weyrich, who also co-founded the Heritage Foundation.) ALEC pushed the concept of School Vouchers with the intent of destroying public education. They also provide bill models for copycatting in multiple states. Such things include privatization of prisons, rewriting the Constitution, the Powell Memorandum, Stand Your Ground laws, deregulation, etc. The organization is an advisor on Project 2025 as well.
Romney can't even take cues from other prominent GOP that are saying they are voting for Harris. Instead of helping bail out, he'll leave the ship, like a rat.
Romney has 13 million dollars received by the NRA and thoughts and prayers are enough for all the murdered children in school shootings and other citizens murdered while shopping or going to church ! I don't trust him for anything !
Let us not rush to judgement, here. Senator Romney has proven his statesmanship in the past and his courage, too. We may not have the whole picture. For example, in the Senator's very good mind, the timing of an endorsement may be important. If he endorses Vice President Harris now, as he is indirectly, in actuality, Senator Romney's endorsement will be old news. But on All Saints Day, that may be more impactful.
P.S., just checked: Representative Curtis, the G.O.P. nominee to succeed Senator Romney apparently is a moderate. Senator Romney's endorsement now might roil Representative Curtis's campaign.
I kind of respect Romney for knowing what's true, Linda, and yet he seems wimpish to me. Also, I don't think it will make any difference to his and fam's security at this point no matter what he does. Violent MAGAs have already been unleashed.
I'm outside the US, and like you I already voted straight blue, but I watched the debate until I got bored. I missed the big reveal that Vance won't say who won the '20 election. Yawn.
pronounce the double letter as if it's one. Not like Spanish or Italian that wants us to pronounce both double consonants. So be befreut as you wish about their Stimmung ...
Romney's fear makes him unable to act responsibly when courage could make him do the right thing and know that he would be supported by many other good souls.
Wait a sec. Senator Romney voted twice to remove President Trump. Had he been in the Senate in 2018, I believe firmly that he would have been the only Republican openly to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with then Senator Flake.
Yes! So, why does he not have the same courage now -- when it could benefit so many by actually preventing the power grab of these anti-Constitutional forces?
Senator Romney does. He has endorse the Vice President indirectly. If Senator Romney endorsed the Democratic now, it would have little impact as opposed to a 'saintly' endorsement on 01nov24. Also, an open endorsement might under-cut the G.O.P. nominee seeking to succeed the Senator. Representative Curtis is an anti-Trump Republican.
Well, since he was here for a time, I guess Massachusetts could offer him sanctuary if, god forbid, T**** wins. He can be part of the army of grandfathers who will do everything necessary to keep the orange menace and his mini-me out of the Oval Office.
I don't know if you have been reading Project 2025, but I think it is going to be a lot like what Hitler did, so, he had his enemies list and he had the people shot. The Supreme Court has already offered him immunity to go rogue. Since P2025 is about turning the USA into a Christian Nationalist Theocracy, with everyone either getting with the program willingly, or unwillingly. Still, there is clearly plans for massive killings of people. That is why Romney, who is not smart enough to be a Democrat, but is smart enough to know what might await him, is thinking about leaving the US, because no state will be safe. Look at Putin now. In fact, Putin, Saudi Arabia, Iran, China have let people know that they can reach them anywhere in the world.
I haven't taken time to read P2025... yet. I've pondered Romney's plan (to leave the US) and wonder if he knows more than he's telling. A T**** victory will be an unmitigated disaster: it would not surprise me if it started a civil war. He must be stopped. We have no other option.
David, Regrettably, Trump’s and Vance’s remarks, while revealing as you noted, don’t have nearly the impact of their rhetoric actually being subjected to critical scrutiny in real time. Hence, I wasn’t surprised by some Harris supporters, who claimed that Vance won last night’s debate, though I should note, contrary to claiming Vance’s slick performance would benefit Trump, the consensus is that Vance helped himself.
Yeah, Vance managed to at least look "sane" when contrasted to the incoherent insanity that typically spews from the mouth of Trump. Of course if you dig even the slightest bit deeper you see that he still sits on a huge stack of lies and misrepresentations but Vance's handlers packaged him well for the debate.
Jon, Frankly, I consider it malpractice, let alone a threat to democracy, for any media outlet to cede its responsibility to live-fact-check our candidates. Likewise, I think it a disservice to voters to expect candidates to both fully present their policy agendas and also thoroughly fact-check each other.
It’s not a debate. Two minutes to answer a question is ridiculous. Best part—the fact check of Haitians in Spfld that Vance called out. 🙏🏼let’s see that over and over on the morning talk shows. The moderators did a great job maintaining order and turned off mics at least once.
As I understand it, the "no fact checking" rule was required by the Trump campaign. So it was either agree or no debate at all. I am honestly torn on this. In a true debate, moderators DO NOT fact check, that is the job of the debaters. So in that respect, at least, this was MORE like a real debate than a parallel press interview which is what most Presidential debates are like. And while I would have liked the moderators to call out the real "whoppers " for me it was important to see the candidates. So there you have it. No way to force it to be any other way of one side demands it.
I agree, Barbara Jo, and yet those that are already in the tank for the felon won't believe the fact checks, and those in the tank for Harris already know the standard lies the right spews. I have no idea what the undies think or believe about anything, or if they do think or believe anything... if they did how could they still be making up their so-called minds?
Barbara, I am not sure where you get the idea that the media has some responsibility to "fact- check" during a debate. And I would much rather HAVE a debate than not have one which I expect would be the result if they insisted on fact checking. You can only do what you can do. I know that sounds feeble but it is in fact what it is.
I agree with Barbara - the thing is run by the media. It's a glorified press conference, only 2 mins allowed per question. Phew! That's enough to make anyone's less-practiced brow wrinkle.
I believe it is the media's responsibility to report the facts. It's irresponsible to allow non-factual statements to be voiced under their aegis without correction. But you are probably right, Jon, that there wouldn't be any debates if fact checking were de rigueur.
I wish the moderator had responded to Senator vance's push-back by saying, "Sir, I am making a clarification. I am not fact-checking you." That might have de-railed Senator Vance's persona and led to an unflattering bout of urinary olympics.
Some "facts." Trump was convicted of 34 felony counts. Many cases outstanding. Depicts himself as a victim. No evidence that Biden or Harris targeted him in any way. The "big lie" is a lie.
Uses victimhood to sell "merch" daily.
Does Vance personally benefit from the sale of the merch? Does he hold or did he ever hold any Trump Social stock? If so, details.
After attending Yale Law School , Vance had a career in venture capitalism. He spent a few years in Silicon Valley working at Mithril Capital and later launched his own firm, Narya, in Ohio. Narya was backed with about $US100 million from Peter Thiel and a cadre of his acquaintances, including former Google chief executive Eric Schmidt and prominent venture capitalists Marc Andreessen and Scott Dorsey. Vance financial statement. https://www.businessinsider.com/read-jd-vance-financial-disclosure-net-worth-bitcoin-fec-report-2024-8
As well as Rumble and Anduril, Narya owns a stake in dozens more private companies, including Strive Asset Management, an investment fund started by former Republican presidential candidate-turned-Trump backer, Vivek Ramaswamy – who was also a former Vance classmate at Yale. Strive has built stakes in corporate giants such as Apple and Disney to urge them to keep “woke” politics out of their businesses.
When Vance decided to run for US Senate barely a year later, Thiel was his biggest donor in the 2022 Senate race, giving $US15 million to a super PAC that backed him. He also introduced Vance to Trump for the first time at his Palm Beach golf club, Mar-a-Lago.
Vance left Narya after being elected to the Senate, by which time he had built stakes in more than 100 start-up companies, according to federal records that showed Vance’s financial interests that year. Many of them are companies Thiel founded or backed. Still holds an interest.
As recently as last week Vance attacked Zelinsky. "While his support [of] Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been unwavering and he has shown an an openness to strongmen such as Hungary’s Viktor Orbán, [Vance] has questioned unequivocal aid for Taiwan and called for a swift end to the war in Ukraine — potentially allowing Russia to keep annexed territory — will worry Kyiv and its NATO allies."
It's unfortunate that Walz or the moderators did not bring up, even tangentially, the fact that Trump has been convicted of 34 felony counts of fraud and of sexual assault.
Great analysis, Daniel. I would like to add the distortion by Senator Vance of the Minnesota abortion law. That law seems very balanced. In fact, it provides "grants" to enable a mother to choose to take the pregnancy to term.
Here is the quote that I believe -- or, more realistically, that I can find -- is being distorted into the canard of killing viable foetuses: "For purposes of this section, 'abortion' means the use of any means to terminate the pregnancy of a woman known to be pregnant with knowledge that the termination with those means will, with reasonable likelihood, cause the death of the fetus and 'fetus' means any individual human organism from fertilization until birth."
Of course, I may have lapsed in my attention and skipped the language allowing live foetuses to die.
P.S., this language may be arguing against permitting live foetuses to die.
"Any person who shall endeavor attempts to conceal the birth of a child by any disposition of its dead body, whether when the child died before or after its birth, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. Every person who, having been convicted of endeavoring to conceal the stillbirth of any issue, or the death of any issue under the age of two years, shall, subsequent to that conviction, endeavor to conceal any subsequent birth or death, shall be punished by imprisonment for not more than five years."
The only thing most voters need to know about Vance is that he would put a national abortion ban in place in a heart beat. One ad that shows him saying publicly what he thinks about abortion, women staying in abusive marriages, the admission that he created Springfield story, and him waffling on '20 winner, should do the trick to discredit him. Not that the low info voters will be aware of any of it.
Vance painted a picture of supporting families so women can continue on with an unwanted pregnancy. I have a sneaking feeling that they will try to outlaw pregnancy outside of marriage, enforcing female celibacy by law.
The disappointment for me was that Governor Gipper was defensive about the timing of his stay in China. I wish he had shrugged his shoulders and said something like, "Well, I am busted. My memory can mash things up. Thank you for the correction. The important point here is how I reacted to being in Hong Kong during the fall-out of the 1989 massacre. I started bringing American students to China, not only to promote goodwill, but also to let Chinese kids an example of growing up in a free and democratic society."
OF COURSE, easy for me to say. On that stage, I would have been a pillar of salt.
Inasmuch as visual first impressions mean a lot and Governor Gipper was slow out of the gate but came on very strong as the evening progressed, I wonder if this debate was like that of 1960 between Presidents Kennedy and Nixon. Those who watched it on television; tended to favour then Senator Kennedy; those who listened on the radio leaned toward then Vice President Nixon.
It made for unfortunate optics to see the top of the governor's head while the senator was talking. He was taking copious notes and that made the Vance performance seem more polished, especially as he looked at Walz when he was speaking. Sigh... Neither moved the needle in terms of winning over the six undecideds but it does concern me that the optics will get more play than the content.
MisTBlu, To ease your concerns, I understand the Harris campaign’s objective for Walz was to do no harm, which, in my view, he didn’t. As for Vance, if the consensus that Vance, rather than benefitting Trump, helped elevate himself as the party’s stand bearer post Trump is accurate, given our working orders for the next 5 weeks, I believe we can dispense with spending any more calories on last night’s debate performance.
"Vance’s goal was harder: to give people a reason to vote for Donald Trump. It is doubtful he moved any needles there."
Vance's goal was to appear 'more likable' than he has on the trail. It was always a question of who'd show up - Trump's MiniMe yap dog or the Yalie best selling author of a thousand book tours. Vance nailed that. 'The devil doesn't always wear horns.'
Missed opportunities: to delineate between president and veep and debunk 'the Harris administration'; to ask why abortion is the only healthcare where treatment is decided by voters not medical professionals - the medical standard of practice for bleeding to death and risk of sepsis are the same for a person in Texas or NYC and whether or not its aetiology is the uterus; and to point out that many Central Americans are seeking asylum because the US is deporting violent criminals from US gangs, exporting weaponry, and has a largely untreated addicted population hungry for deadly drugs.
Walz has said on several occasions that he wasn't a good debater.
I was raised in NE as well, and I prefer not to engage face to face because, the endorphines (sp) take over and I go into attack mode, which really serves no purpose.
It looks like Vance lied and refused to answer key questions which is as much as I could hope for. Plus, Walz's likeablity was off the charts at 59% favorable/22% unfavorable while Vance was at 41%/42% favorable to unfavorable.
Talk about the less-than-salutary things the U.S. exports.
Add in, lin, regrettably, standardized testing. It's become so dominant in many countries aping the U.S. that schools in many countries now teach only to the test.
In Japan, where I live, no school asks any student to read any book entire, reports Minae Mizumura in "The Fall of Language in the Age of English" (Columbia U Press trans. 2016).
All the culture just gets hacked up into meaningless fragments suitable only for the nationally imposed standardized tests.
It's not just that the living dead rule, but that the forms of death promote visions of life totally categorical, totally linear, as if there were nothing personal or natural in life, only the relentless machineries all gradable by computer. No humans involved at any level.
And in college (finally!) no student ever reads anything. All get passing scores just by You Tube videos providing the otherwise dead info.
Standardized testing has been in existence since the Han Dynasty in China. I note that your view of education is quite sour. Yes, it's changed a lot but that's not recent. In 1986 Professor Neal Postman published, "Amusing Ourselves To Death," a stinging assessment of the effect that television was having on his students.
I appreciated Walz comments on Healthcare in Minnesota, especially after finding over the years that everywhere I went that the Doctor's I thought best for me turned out to have interned at Mayo Clinic facilities. I didn't realize it until I watched the Ken Burns documentary at https://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-mayo-clinic/
I was struck by the collaborative exchanges between up to 6 Doctors in an example I think I saw there, and the similar collaboration at the Loma Linda University Healthcare system. When I mentioned the documentary and collaborative efforts, everyone of the specialists I saw told me they had interned at a Mayo Clinic.
One of them had signed up expecting to intern at the Scottsdale AZ clinic but was somewhat disappointed to be sent to Rochester, Minnesota, a much colder climate than he expected. I asked about the long underground tunnels to get between the buildings (described in the documentary). He appreciated the tunnels but his preferred outdoor activities were not suited to the climate in the winter.
We split time between Blue Hill, ME and Ponte Vedra, FL for almost 20 years. Except on rare occasion, all of our medical care was handled in FL. Almost every doctor we saw, was Mayo trained. The Mayo facility in Jacksonville has over 10,000 employees and they have two hotels on campus because of the people that seek treatment there from all over the world.
And when a doctor had had enough of the Mayo they often chose to practice in the area. The medical care we have received in ME pales in comparison, mostly because of the lack of doctors that are will to practice in ME as I imagine you are aware.
I agree. The way each said he'd be happy to give the winner any assistance he could was endearing! That WAS good optics. I was more concerned about Walz's constantly anguished expression than the frequent view of the top of his head, then decided he was only conveying serious concentration, not distress.
I agree that Walz has an unintended permanent frown whenever he isn't actively smiling. When Kamala debated, she put on a masterclass of facial expressions. I wish Walz had learned from that. It occurred to me, though, that 1. Men are not taught how to react with facial openness since they are taught to be "stoic"
2. Even if he had shown more emotion, he would have been lambasted for the same stoic reasoning.
3. Most top politicians have some acting skills, and Walz doesn't have as much as Vance, who has to act well to deliver as many lies as he did with a straight face.
I agree. Walz looked pained and nervous. I watched this man through many Covid briefings for the state and he can come across as concerned and knowledgable. His speech was pressured and both did that annoying thing where they fail to answer a fairly straightforward question. (How much time should a mother have for paid maternity leave, for example.)It was evident there were talking points drilled in during debate prep for both. I did like a bit of back and forth giving credit for reasonable solutions to problems, but there was minimal recognition that little gets done without the cooperation of congress and nothing gets done with the current House of Representatives. It was super annoying to have Vance bring up discredited lies about illegal Haitians and killing babies after they are born. They just can't let those go.
Cameron, I agree. Walz did look nervous, at least at first, and he was asked the first question, which he failed to answer. Vance was also asked the question, and he, too, didn't answer it. Between those non-responces and Vance's continued lies, especially about immigration in general, I had enough and switched the channel to Netflix.
I'll add that, whenever Vance brought up "the (current) Harris administration", Walz didn't correct him. He ought to have said something along the lines of "President Biden is still in charge, and VP Harris continues to be proud of the accomplishments made during this administration."
This is exactly why I didn't watch the debate and waited for the sound clips analyzed by MSNBC and John Fugelseng.
Walz admitted he wasn't a debater on day 1 and I thought he did just fine. Vance hung himself especially at the end.
I haven't changed my mind about Trump since 2015. I literally hate the guy for destroying the Republican Party. ALL of the Republican politicians at every level of government have turned into sniveling sycophants. If they don't they get tossed out the door like Liz Cheney.
I don't remember who said it or when but, "I would vote for an empty tomato can before I vote for Donald Trump." And until the Project 2025 MAGAs are declawed, I won't vote for a Republican at any level of government.
I'm determined to get the word out about Project 2025. With my election action group in Seattle I've put together a collection of concept maps (with page #s!) to help people understand the magnitude of damage MAGA wants to do and be able to bring the receipts in their discussions with other voters. I'd like this to get in front of as many people as possible. Please share the web link with everyone in your network and ask them to share with everyone in their network. Here's my post: https://substack.com/home/post/p-149586096?r=11kr2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web and here's the link directly to the web page: https://fidlnfree.com/rwb.html. Thanks!
I watched MSNBC post debate. They had a reporter on site at a college watch party, and one young man made a HUGE point that the debate missed: Vance kept referring to what the "Harris Administration " did or did not do in 3 1/2 years--and the young man said " Civics class!-- nobody asked either of them what they would do on Day 1, because that's not in the power of the VP." Does Vance think HE will preside over Trump? Does Trump know this? Or does Vance plan to invoke the 25th on "day one's? Seriously, BIDEN is POTUS, not Harris! Do we want ANOTHER Republican who doesn't understand the Constitution in our highest office?
It's not the first time I've heard Vance and Trump both complain that Harris has had 3-1/2 years to put her plans into place. They refer to the Harris administration. I have heard NO ONE come back to these comments. Harris is VP NOT President!. She hasn't had an "administration". She hasn't had 3-1/2 years to put her plans into place. I have NOT heard anyone (Walz included) reply to those accusations. I think it needs to be stated... not taken for granted that voters know.
"Before and after his selection as Donald Trump’s running mate, Mr. Vance said repeatedly that if he had been vice president on Jan. 6, 2021, he would have intervened in the electoral count in favor of President Trump."
I agree. Vance repeatedly attributed power to Harris she doesn't have as VP. It's like he doesn't know what the VP does. It was obviously a gaslighting tactic to suck in low info voters. I just wish Walz had found a way to counter it without disavowing the Biden Harris admin or saying Harris is weak.
Walz did say at one point that laws get made by Congress, not by the Execs. That, imho, is more salient than that Biden is prez retort, because it shows Vance doesn't know his current job, much less the one he's running for.
Put it down to nervousness - this was the one opportunity. Yes, the quick answer to "why didn't she do it then" accusations "She wasn't the President".
That was a lost opportunity to not correct Vance's repeated assertion that it was the "Harris Administration." I wonder how he'd feel if the failures of Trump were laid at his feet.
Walz unscripted is kryptonite to the shit that flies out of Trump and and Vance’s mouths. An overprepared Walz is a Walz not in his natural element. I doubt he had a script in front of him when he was talking to his football team at halftime. I think Harris should ratchet up his time and let him be him in front of lots and lots of people. Unscripted. It’s the unscripted decency that will push some of those idiotic fence sitters over onto the blue side.
You know, the original discomfort or hesitancy that I imagined Walz was feeling, initially, faded away with my deep sense that Walz speaks from a center of decency and truth. He was able to clearly present the wonderful successes his state has enjoyed under his leadership as governor. I felt he did a great job and Vance merely excelled at debate 101...that is, dance around the facts, pretend they support your POV and never concede to inconvenient facts. As for the entire debate, I could not turn away or go do something else, as tired as I was.
Yes, I prayed Walz would manage an enormous smack down. However, I would argue that what he presented was the ability of a rational individual, who fundamentally disagrees with his opponent, to do so with dignity and courtesy and admirable decorum. Over the last "too many" years, this has been so disturbingly absent. Vance joined him in rational debate but his was not an entirely "honest" debate of facts. Arguably, even dangerous people can present themselves as rational to an unengaged listener attentive to the lies and evasions. Vance had many.
Somewhat more telling, to me, is a piece that Rachel Maddow presented the night before the debate, which I wholeheartedly recommend. IMHO, it reveals the DARK underside, the massive threat to democracy, that Vance, his apparent main support, Peter Thiel, and, of course, the dark money that pumps that (anti-democratic) movement, present to the US, congress and the constitution. IMHO, in light of the above revelation about Vance's unguarded comments on democracy's future, the importance of debate performances pale in comparison:
My take: Walz was ultimately believable and even inspirational as he talked about the successes his state has had in numerous nationally trying issues. IMHO, Vance's evasions did nothing to help his candidacy, and especially after Rachel Maddow's examination of his documented record of extreme political ideas and intent.
I agree 100%. I’m disappointed in most of the analysis of the debate so far, which seems to very much emphasize style over substance. Sure, JD seemed smooth and polished (or smarmy and slick IMHO) but I thought Walz’s innate decency and likeability shone through despite his “nervousness.” I might describe his affect as earnest rather than nervous, but that’s neither here nor there. What I think gets lost in the coverage that focuses on Vance’s smarmy lies, is that Walz made some very good, substantial points on issues of importance to voters, like abortion, climate, healthcare and, of course, Jan. 6th. Doubtful that this moves the needle much in the election, but discerning viewers who actually care about character in their elected officials will have sorted the liar from the decent truth teller within about 5 minutes.
I couldn't agree more. Also saw TRMS about 2 hours before the debate.
Perhaps they could have a quiz show contest playing back Vance's extreme range of claims and positions, alternating between each extreme, and have contestants try to guess when he said what and to what type of audience.
I do have to hand it to him though for not claiming the audience loved his performance (like Trump did at the other debate without an audience).
Quote- “An overprepared Walz is a Walz not in his natural element. I doubt he had a script in front of him when he was talking to his football team at halftime.”
Wm Burke, you nailed it!! Walz was not himself. Practicing with Pete Buttigieg was probably not the right tactic. Pete, like Vance, is a skilled debater, talks fast with a command of the facts and speaks with authority. That is not Walz and he couldn’t become that sort of person regardless of how much pre-debate prep they did. Governor Walz is a compassionate, thoughtful person who, in his element, can shine a bright light on false information and hypocrisy. I found the debate hard to watch for those reasons.
That is exactly why Walz needed to practice against that kind of debater. He would have been caught in headlights like a deer otherwise, just like Biden was at Trump’s outrageous gish Gallop.
Same damn problem with Biden: they over prepared an exhausted Biden who could have dealt with any question with no testing or "practice". He had a few dozen "helpers" prepping him at Camp David.
Biden should been relaxing and taking walks with Jill.
I just want to point out that unscripted is not what is really needed. All quick, coherent speech (worthy of repetition), are not usually unscripted, they are so highly rehearsed that they sound natural and unscripted. But they are honed arguments practiced over and over.
Not in my world. I had this argument with a former sergeant of mine (and one would assume that we'd both be relatively familiar with the definitions of homicide and infanticide) who insisted that killing a baby after it was born was a "post-birth abortion" and lawful. WTAF?
The "killing babies after they're born" thing is based on the fact that some states don NOT require extraordinary measures to preserve the lives of infants born with devastating defects and unable to survive normally. It's a thin but VERY important line between mercy killing and mercy allowing-nature-to-take-its-course.
Friendly correction: their "post-birth abortion" argument isn't about "mercy killing," it's about killing a healthy baby just because. Babies born with devastating defects are given palliative care. Measures to relieve pain can lead to death, which makes it a mercy.
That's the twist exPINO is putting on it - claiming the compassionate medical response to a tragic situation amounts to "post birth abortion." You two don't disagree.
JD addressed Gov. Walz as Tim, and referred to him also as Tim. To me this was a dominance display move. I wish Gov. Walz had addressed JD as “JD” or else very pointedly addressed him as Senator.
I am sure Walz was ready for a firehose of lies, but some were mind-boggling, and Walz couldn’t help looking stunned at the audacity of “Trump saved Obamacare.” But still, he stuck to the facts, according to the Guardian (except for pregnancy registration not being in Project 2025) while Vance told seven whoppers.
I blame Walz's handlers for that. When he was focused on the desk, the site of his floppy face was disheartening. And, his outfit didn't come close to Vance's expensive and colorful getup. Isn't there a budget in the millions the campaign took in to costume the VP for the one and only debate??
Palin was provided with a wardrobe that cost more than $150,000. Her then-husband and pregnant-out-of-wedlock daughter were also styled by pros. It is clear from photos and videos that wardrobe is very low on the list of concerns of Tim Walz.
He is even more dangerous. And if tech bros get their way 3rd time will be a charm and they will install pretty boy to do their bidding as quickly as possible.
Vance was as slick as his background indicated he would be. But that last question skewered him, the "damnable non-reply". I loved the way the moderators just cut their mikes when they got out of hand.
Right and if Trump noticed we can expect to see Trump start degrading Vance, according to the authoritarian playbook that Prof. Ruth Ben-Ghiat describes.
GW, a total cipher, a vain narcissist. One of our worst presidents with blood on his hands who led us to the brink of an economic collapse. Obama/Biden came to the rescue.
Matt, Thank you for writing. I didn’t know NPR was fact-checking in real time. More importantly, I wonder how many voters who don’t already support Harris were viewing the debate similarly.
Yes, as I understand it the: "rights" to rebroadcast the debate live we granted only if "live fact checking" was not done by the rebroadcaster. This included MSNBC and NPR (we switched back and forth and noticed no immediate fact checking being done on either).
Our best issue is that Trump is incompetent to stand trial, let alone carry out an oath of office. He was grifter in chief as president. Not a word about his false accusations about Biden, Kamala, all of which are easily proven.
As to Vance, he is Putin's choice to be president. Ukraine is our issue.
Charges have been brought against him in Ohio for making false charges about Haitians. The Republican governor and the mayor of Springfield call him a liar.
I've turned off auto-renewal but I have it until June. Have posted tons of Kirchner complaints but this time it was on the mark though I don't like their relaxed attitude over Project 2025.
I watched it on C-SPAN while following along in Scott Dworkin's chat. Another follower posted Politifact fact-checking in close to real time. I took screenshots and would share, but we can't post photos here.
We have three TVs that are internet connected. No cable. But they also have antennas. Last I checked, we can watch the local CBS, NBC, ABC, PBS stations over the air - usually in very high definition. That may not be true in areas too far from the stations.
Those who have positive comments for Vance are also liars! He’s a LIAR, period! He admitted it, period! The only thing Vance offered was more lies and the two tv media pawns lost any journalistic credibility by agreeing not to fact check!
Vance was good one ‘talking head’ writes! Nah, he is not even a good liar! Weird isn’t it’!
What we say on stage was a glib bulldog fighting to create an autocracy vs. Mr. Middle America bolstering the need to preserve our democracy!
Well-put, David -- getting the pair matched for their annoyance at fact checking.
Their tens of millions, however, have no such standards as some in the press level at the two, so I cringe at how Tim got the admission in the end that this pair will continue to field their lies about the 2020 election results and about the violent insurrection of Jan. 6.
I say this as it's reminder not just of how eager the tens of millions are for their group cult, but how the lies go along with their larger lies necessary going forward to vilify immigrants, black and brown people, and women who value their own personal and family decisions.
All this just drives home, again, how U.S. schools so largely now do nothing but prepare so many for nothing more than group corralling, life as nothing more than abstracted categories, and all the other conceits built into the standardized testing that so largely anymore rules out any real education schools might provide.
There were a number of occasions where Vance simply ignored the question and gave us his spiel on something. Walz called him out on his non-response to the question of whether Trump won or lost the 2020 election. More of that should have taken place.
So right. I find it hard to believe that you have to negotiate around fact checking in real time. If you are truthful what do you need to fear. That is BS on the networks part as they should be 100% behind the truth.
To be hopeful in bad times is not foolishly romantic. It is based on the fact that human history is a history not only of cruelty, but also of compassion, sacrifice, courage, kindness.
You Can’t Be Neutral on a Moving Train. Activist and Teacher Howard Zinn
Vance could have just as easily said "oh, that's true but not the issue. The issues is that we've let in far too many people who are undermining these communities, legal or not..." I 100% do not agree with that sentiment, but it would have been a better response than "gee, I thought was I going to be able to lie through this."
Presenting lies with a smooth talk are considered a win by most journalists. If so, packaging poisons beautifully for selling is a good marketing. Trump and Vance are corrupt but so are journalists.
My wife and I were pleased with Tim Walz’s performance. As for JD Vance’s: even the devil can present as being intelligent, measured, reasonable, even likable - if one doesn’t know better. Thanks, in no small part to you, we do.
Yes, Tim Walz was caught a few times being nervous, and probably forgot that he was being filmed. But he stayed cool, and was very articulate and detailed oriented.
I was hoping the subject of who is going to harvest our food from America’s farms and vineyards, if all of our migrant workers get deported per Project 2025.
Great point! People forget that sure there are jobs but an awful lot of them aren't ones that American citizens want, like picking fruit and harvesting vegetables. A significant part of our food supply is handled by migrant workers, many of whom are sadly illegal. We should make ALL of them legal (I personally believe we need to open our borders not close them so there I part company with Harris and Biden and Walz).
Ah, the cowardice of public office LOL. That is why I never ran for anything. I couldn't handle the hypocrisy. That and I smoked way too much pot when I was growing up!
I'm determined to get the word out about Project 2025. With my election action group in Seattle I've put together a collection of concept maps (with page #s!) to help people understand the magnitude of damage MAGA wants to do and be able to bring the receipts in their discussions with other voters. I'd like this to get in front of as many people as possible. Please share the web link with everyone in your network and ask them to share with everyone in their network. Here's my post: https://substack.com/home/post/p-149586096?r=11kr2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web and here's the link directly to the web page: https://fidlnfree.com/rwb.html. Thanks!
The problem is that the people who will decide this election don't read this blog. And what they saw last night doesn't make me feel a lot better about Harris' chances of winning. I liked what Jen Psaki said after the debate on MSNBC... Walz's handlers tried too hard to keep him "on point" which completely ignored his strength which is sincerity. Sure he bumbles a bit (like most of us would) but his content is reality and must prone can see and feel that. He did better in the later part of the debate but from where I sat, he certainly didn't win any extra votes for Harris except maybe when he pinned Vance on the "who won the 2020 election" question. Vance simply can't answer that question (and didn't) and anyone who picked that up will know how that fits into into nonsense of the GOP campaign. Sigh, I just wish it had been a lot more of that throughout the debate.
Yeah, there were a couple times when I wish Walz had called Vance out on some of his made-up facts. For all the talk from MAGAs about losing jobs to China, the fact is that in the last 2 years, the U.S. has seen unprecedented investment in the manufacturing sector. Some of that is related to the CHIPS Act and other Biden initiatives, but that money has been leveraged by private capital. Talking about manufacturing moving jobs overseas is so 1990s, in my opinion. The game has changed, folks.
the malignant narcissist tried to have one Vice President killed ("hang Mike Pence!") and doesn't tolerate being upstaged - he said the role is inconsequential because he never intends for there to be a line of succession to his dictatorship and dynasty.
T and Vance together make me wonder if Shakespeare's tragedy "Julius Caesar" is about to be played out in real life...
Seth Abramson pitches Vance as a sort of Trump temporary placeholder for Trump’s dynastic plan for the foreseeable decades ahead. He includes Vance as part of The Family - and supports that thesis partly with the fact that Vance is best friends with Don Jr… who was key in Vance’s nomination.
It was an interesting read in yesterday’s Substack. Long as usual.
My Midwestern upbringing, like Senator Walz, has me “holding my tongue” regarding anything Virulent Vance has to say. However, it would be unwise to put this “meekness” to the test. It is satisfying to see that the Haitian community in Ohio has a lawsuit in the works regarding the debacle perpetrated by citizen Phlegm (former president) and Vance. Not holding my breath for any real Justice to proceed any time soon, but, I remain Hopeful that some sort of penalty will ensue.
Personally, I was delighted to see how the ladies stopped the verbal fisticuffs of both boys by muting both of their mics. The look on both of their faces after they had done so was priceless. This is why we need to put a woman in charge!
Unfortunately they also let Vance get away with a 30 second rant without muting him. Tim didn't get the same benefit, even when he saw through that and tried! So CBS has definitely put themselves as a corporate entity in the Trump camp. Either that or all news anchors are just intimidated by dominant males who insist on talking over them; I don't think that is the case, they could have just hit the mute button and said sorry!
Sorry that part about CBS in Trump's camp because they couldn't rein in Vance for 30 seconds is nonsense and you know it. They did a pretty damn good job of keeping the debate on target and they were completely able to cut off Vance when he went outside the lines. 30 seconds? It takes you that long to figure out which control to pull in a TV master control room (I've been there). Sorry, I have to call it as I see it and I do not think CBS network had anything to do with somehow pumping up Vance.
I just wish Walz would have checked his ‘Minnesota Nice’ at the door. He landed a nice shot at the end, but I would have liked to have seen more of him buttonholing Vance on his lies and radical embrace of dictatorship.
The ladies should NOT have agreed to be on stage if they could not fact check, knowing that, like chump, everything spewed from Vance’s mouth will be a LIE!
As Scott Dworkin wrote the other day, " Nothing will change the fact that JD Vance is JD Vance. And on that fact alone, he already lost the debate. Trump and Vance’s countless racist lies about immigrants in Springfield, Ohio, resulted in 33 bomb threats, school closures, and a community in panic. JD then admitted on national television that he’s willing to lie, to get people to focus on what 'he' thinks is important."
But nobody who needs to switch their vote cares about his lies. To many people who read HCR and watch MSNBC think this is all important stuff. It may be to us, but we already knew it. The people who need to hear it and see it aren't reading this Substack or watching the leftist media. That's why I have been so adamant that mainstream media is CRITICAL, and ignoring it and attacking it just let's the misrepresentations continue. We need to support them so that at least some of them will help turn the tide. Because trust me it IS a tide not just a modest swell.
To your point about the people who need to read this Substack are not: I post Heather’s letters in a political group from my hometown (mostly MAGA) as an offering to the lesser extreme folks. One response was “Who is this for? I’m not going to read it, although coming from a professor I’ll assume there is some truth - designed to sway opinion.” I’ll keep sharing anyway!
Once again you totally misunderstand. I don't condone his lies. I just recognize that it is a waste of time for ME to try to convince his supporters that he is lying. That is why MSM is so critical. Sorry if you can't understand that. And really sorry if you don't agree with it. Tearing down the MSM is going to HURT our cause not help it.
What an interesting debate! I thought Walz's closing was perfect and set up the difference between them and their "mutual likeability"! Vance actually appeared "human" which I'm guessing isn't winning any points with DJT!
Now it's time for The Lincoln Project to roll up their sleeves and plant the seed (or seedling?) that Vance is aiming to pull the 25th Amendment asap. He saw what happened to the last guy--so "better to do unto others BEFORE they do unto you" as the warped saying goes!!
Every once in awhile he looked like he wanted to be on the "other team" when pushed to defend Trump's crazier side!! Realistically though-he's the real danger if they win, because he's younger, smarter, and more conniving than Trump--and he's intimately acquainted with Project 2025 and that document I think he firmly believes in :(
Good luck with that, sigh. I think we are all being wishful thinkers to believe that anything last night moved any needles either way. Wish it weren't so, but the truth is what it is.
I'm determined to get the word out about Project 2025. With my election action group in Seattle I've put together a collection of concept maps (with page #s!) to help people understand the magnitude of damage MAGA wants to do and be able to bring the receipts in their discussions with other voters. I'd like this to get in front of as many people as possible. Please share the web link with everyone in your network and ask them to share with everyone in their network. Here's my post: https://substack.com/home/post/p-149586096?r=11kr2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web and here's the link directly to the web page: https://fidlnfree.com/rwb.html. Thanks!
Dr Richardson, your way with words never ceases to delight me. Saying that Vance has a "tenuous relationship with the truth" is an effectively polite way of characterizing his behavior: just as polite as characterizing the Pacific ocean as a bit of a damp spot. Brava.
I love the characterization of "a minor social network" reference by "Belle" of YouTube's "Beau of the Fifth Column." Deflate a bully by mocking and minimizing him. His many words and long rants, and his "middle of the night mean tweets" continue to be clear evidence "it's all about him" and he is easily baited. Putin manipulates 45 like a puppet master controls a marionette. That's NOT a leader, and CERTAINLY NOT anyone who should have access to the nuclear codes.
The problem with this is that his millions of supporters are not THAT stupid and they resent the baiting. That's why the mainstream media is so important. They at lest provide some level of credibility when there are legitimate attacks on Trump's nonsense to be made. I think that did show somewhat last night.
But the raw truth is needed against Mein Kampf big lies. As the James Murphy translation said, “For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire in the art of lying.”
I watched the first presidential debates, between Kennedy and Nixon, in 1960. They seemed infinitely more important than the Walz/Vance ‘debate’ last night.
I saw a slick, Yale Law School ‘hill billy,’ practiced in public debate, and a boots-on-the-ground social studies teacher, National Guardsman for over two decades, former Congressman, and twice-elected Minnesota governor.
I felt that Vance displayed smoothness in how he presented his version of the Trump platform. However, were he Pinocchio, his nose would have been longer than a pole vault by the end of his performance.
His avoidance of specific questions and his flat lies were consonant with the Trump campaign. He refused to acknowledge that Trump was defeated in the 2020 presidential election. His dismissal of January 6th I found incredulous. His version of how President Trump had sought to ‘rescue’ the Affordable Health Care Act and ‘make it better’ I found laughable.
Governor Walz initially seemed nervous as he faced a professional debater. Nailing down Vance on his lies and ‘misstatements’ seemed akin to trying to harpoon a squid. Walz hit his stride after the first 30 minutes.
I found Walz credible on a broad range of topics, include abortion, the Harris vs. Trump economic plan, a ‘bipartisan approach to immigration like what Trump had instructed the Republican House to reject, and conducting a fair election in which the loser acknowledged the winner.
It is possible that viewers who only watched the initial 30 minutes of the ‘debate’ would think that Vance had done better than Walz. However, overall, an attentive listener should conclude that Walz was more accurate and impressive on substance and that Vance, a recent senator, was desperately trying to please his boss, Donald Trump.
I doubt, unlike the Kennedy-Nixon 1960 debates, that this encounter between two vice presidential candidates will have a significant impact on the presidential campaign.
Senator Vance presented a sanitized version of the Trump campaign, including a cacophony of lies and misstatements.
Governor Walz, after a nervous start, supported the key Harris campaign positions, often relating these to what he had accomplished in Minnesota.
I found Governor Walt’s concluding statement his most credible exposition on what Kamala Harris and he stood for.
In sharp contrast, Vance’s final two minutes was a staccato attack on Vice President Harris with not a word on how Trump would provide a viable program to forward the interests of the American people.
The smooth talking SNAKE OIL SALESMAN tried to take ownership for the ACA continuation by Trump. The fact is ConDon wanted to get rid pf it and Sen McCain was crucial in helping preserve important piece of legislation. Was it perfect … no. Did it improve peoples lives. It was an unmitigated success as demonstrated by the numbers of people who have enrolled. When ACA was enacted, I saw an influx if very sick people who had not been able to afford health insurance.We treated them and for them set up with the care they needed regardless of where or who was providing the insurance. Trump wanted to do away with it then and wants to do away with it now. Trump famously said, as he said often. I have a plan and you are going to love it when you see it… still waiting to see it! So JD Vance did not come off as a crazed lunatic liar. He came off as a silver tongue sophisticated, slimy snake oil salesman that is trying to sell you piss and convince you it is a heaven sent elixir.
Walz brought the heat. Especially in the last minute of this the debate. The snake oil salesman brought the lies .
If these two clowns, Mutt and Jeff, darlings of the MAGA extremes gain the Whitehouse we are in for a world of hurt.
Without the ACA, it is certain that the rural and poorer urban parts of this country would be devoid of hospitals, and millions more people would be one disease or broken bone away from financial ruin. Even so, rural hospitals are still closing, many people are still ruined by medical debt, which cannot be discharged by bankruptcy. Scrapping the ACA without a viable alternative (not just the "concept" of one) would severely worsen the state of healthcare in most of this nation.
Especially as Walz pointed out (a bit weaker than I would have desired), compared to all the other economically developed countries in the world (and a few that aren't that well economically developed).
Exhibit 4 shows the US in a lonely corner of Lower Healthcare Performance and Higher Healthcare Spending
Vance should explain how their goal seems to be to reduce our spending perhaps 5 or 6%, though that would probably put our Lower health system performance more than 3 times lower than the next worst country below the average of 10 countries.
There are lies then there are 1984 lies, like Vance claiming Trump saved the ACA.
I remember a frustrated Major interviewed by Peter Arnett during Tet 68 replying "It became necessary to destroy the town to save it," though more publicly misremembered as "We had to destroy the village in order to save it," or "We had to destroy Ben Tre in order to save it"
Vance didn't directly say they were trying to destroy the ACA, but he sure did bring up points that would weaken coverage such that it only worked well for the healthiest people (limiting coverage to make it "affordably" worthless to many).
I watched the debate through NPR and they definitely fact checked Vance after the debate. I didn't watch the networks but am pretty sure they didn't and just let him get away with his lies.
Morning, Lynell. I love it when Juicy Dingleberry Vance told the moderator who said there were lawful Haitian immigrants in Springfield, OH "you're not supposed to fact check!"
MSNBC did a credible job but again they are the"good guys". The people who needed the info didn't watch NPR or MSNBC. They watched Fox who obviously didn't fact check Vance. You can't do much about that though.
DJT, and JD are a Lying Team... DJT is obviously Insane/Delusional, and JD just lies.... JD is more polished, and Dangerous... In the advent of DJT returning to Power, then the Question becomes how long will DJT remain in Office? Will DJT retire early, to Golf forever, or to "Tan His Beautiful Body", UGH!!!? In which case JD will take over.... JD is more Dangerous, and Younger than DJT...
Obviously,Pete Rose was a more important figure than JD Vance. So there you are. (Rose was a guy who cheated for his personal benefit and never seemed to get that that was wrong.)
Careful. I hate Rose but I do not think he ever cheated. He played really ugly sometimes but cheating? No. What he did was gamble on baseball games which is against baseball rules. I don't think anyone would call that cheating unless you believed he actually fixed games (that WOULD be cheating of the highest order). Sorry I tend to be a stickler for words. Accurate words. Rose was a shitty human being and got what he deserved but I would be highly doubtful that he ever actually cheated.
I was anticipating Trump being threatened by Vance displaying a stronger, more manipulative alpha male image than he does & there we had it, lol. They eat their own.
Thank you, Professor, for talking some of us down off the ledge. The start of the debate was cringey, but Walz found his footing. And ultimately, Margaret Brennan hung Vance by his own petard, when it was least expected.
That was almost as good as, "They're eating the pets!"
''It was significant that Vance tried to avoid saying either that Trump won in 2020—a litmus test for MAGA Republicans—or that he lost, a reflection of reality. While this debate probably didn’t move a lot of voters for the 2024 election, what it did do was make Vance look like a far more viable candidate than his running mate. Waffling on the Big Lie seemed designed to preserve his candidacy for future elections.''
Absolutely incredible that we have a convicted felon and degenerate predator, insanely desperate to avoid prison, with his sleazy, scheming sidekick, cravenly ambitious to take over the Presidency, flooding the news with insane lies - and that there could possibly be a chance that they would win. RFK is not the only one to have been infected with a brain worm. A significant minority of the American population seems to have been, too.
Sadly, your fears are well grounded, given the inbuilt inanities of Senate representation, gerrymandering and vote suppression tactics by Republicans, call them what you want. "infected" is perhaps just the right word.
JD Vance was definitely smooth, even slick. Did you notice his ability to look at Walz, and then directly into the camera as Walz was speaking, with a smirk on his face?
Walz has a lifetime of experience to draw upon. All of it good! Vance just changes his mind, with no principles, for his own benefit.
Trump is dangerous. Vance is young and just as dangerous. I would hate to see Trump and his MAGA supporters win and then move even more to "fix" elections, with the aid of the Supreme Court! Then we will get 4 years of Trump followed by the equally unprincipled Vance. If Vance is just willing to change on the fly and seem reasonable, he is just after power.
I feel pretty certain "the America we know" canNOT survive a chump/vance go around. I'm wondering how we, the rational non-magats can band together to protect and inform the younger generations who are left with Project 2025's fascist legacy. Any ideas and suggestions are welcome, thanks.
No magic wand. Just doing what everybody else is because I don’t have Elon’s money. Postcards, what money I can give, voting. Also, wear my tee that says “make racism wrong again.” If that offends the MAGAts, well, that’s on them. For an old lady, that’s all I can do.
Wonderful!! I'm also a viejita. But my neighborhood is such that even my "Samuel Alito's Mom's Satanic Abortion Clinic" t-shirt doesn't raise eyebrows. You take care, now and thanks for the response!
TRUMP: 60 minutes “insisted on doing live fact checking, which is unprecedented.”
VANCE: "The rules were that you guys weren't going to fact-check.”
How to tell 'em you're lying without telling 'em you're lying.
I am in another time zone, and my daughter and I have already voted from Germany. I did not need to watch the debate to see who I was voting for. I was sleeping during the debate. I am not surprised at what I am reading about it. I am team Harris-Walz all the way, as is my daughter. We are both members of Democrats Abroad. Now is the time for people like Mitt Romney, who is saying he will have to leave the country if Trump gets elected, and is worried for his 5 sons, their 5 wives, his 25 grandchildren and 2 great-grand-children to stop just complaining about Trump and take a stand to support Kamala and Tim, knowing that what unites us as patriots is greater than what divides us.
I totally agree Linda! We are in Spain and we voted by absentee ballot a week or so ago. I also belong to Democrats Abroad. It's a good organization. Mitt Romney is such a wimp. He won't stick his neck out and just say, ENOUGH, but he claims to be worried about his family. How about worrying about all of ours and his constituents too? He needs to take a stand on the side of democracy!
Agreed! He also could move many Mormons who would listen to him. That could help Nevada and Arizona to come in Blue.
Just think, another man who wanted to be President, but won't help preserve the Country and the Constitution. Spineless, and pitiful.
Yes. Andra Watkins says, this election is about female personhood.
https://open.substack.com/pub/project2025istheocracy/p/this-election-is-about-female-personhood?r=f0qfn&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&comments=true
Well, in a way, I do hate to say this about republicans, because many now are doing exactly what Linda Weide wishes for them to do. Michael Steele, Liz Cheney (who would ever have guessed that I would give her and her father Kudos) Nancy Kassebaum just to name a few, and even now, the flake of all flakes for not blocking Brett Kavanaugh when he had the chance to do it, Jeff Flake from Arizona. Better late than never, I suppose, but the left wouldn't be this deep in SCOTUS trouble had Jeff Flake done what *I know in my gut he was thinking of doing* but didn't have the cajónes to do it. I suppose we should gratefully accept late gifts even if they're.... well...late.
Agreed, Linda. There actually is a LDS for Harris/Walz group.
LDS Republican Jeff Flake just endorsed:
https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2024/09/29/prominent-lds-republican-jeff/
Hi Kathy, I know about the LDS for Harris/Walz group, and that there are Republicans for Harris/Walz that are led by LDS members. However, having a big name like Romney's endorse Harris, would be a powerful.
I would also like to see President Bush make an endorsement. I thought I heard yesterday that President Carter is ready to join Rosalyn but is hanging in there so he can vote for Vice President Harris. Quite an endorsement, if it is not apocryphal.
Romney’s way way too fearful. He’s not what I’d in anyway call a brave man. He swings like a loose gate.
I have many friends in Lincoln, NE who are Mormon. We used to play tennis together and they tried to persuade me to join the church.
But, Utah and Idaho seem to elect Republicans in spite of the quality of the candidates. Hopefully, Mitt Romney and other prominent Republicans will come around and support Harris/Walz.
World events aren’t helping Harris/Walz
1. Middle East in flames
2.Hurricanes devastating the southeast
3. War in Europe
4. Longshoremen strike that could have severe economic consequences if not ended
These issues serve to confuse the dim-wits feeling that a new administration will end the problems. Of course we know it won’t. My hope is Biden ends the strike and forces both sides to the table.
This is the world. There will always be a conflict somewhere. There will also be issues here at home. The point is not to have zero conflict or problems but how does a President handle what comes across their desk?
Exactly. Temperament is critically important.
When O'Connell and Brennan started off with a list of the events du jour, I thought, this is really no different than in any other election. S*** happens.
I think k you missed my point which is to create an environment most conducive for voting. Most people do not use reason when they vote. Always remember this.
I do. I resist lumping people into a category. All kind of personalities, minds and emotions walk into a voting booth.
That's what I was thinking last night during the debate. It's not what they say, it's how they look. Unfortunately, the spawn of the devil looked better: younger, stronger, better outfit....sickening.
I quit watching the debate after the first half hour. Walz did well, and of course, Vance lied his ass off, but he gave a polished performance. Sadly, most people focus on form rather than substance, so I’m sure many undecided voters preferred Vance over Walz. That used car you’re thinking about buying may look pretty good and the salesperson may make it sound like a real winner, but get a mechanic to check under the hood—you may learn that it’s a nightmare with a nice paint job.
That was EXACTLY my thought. If they don't listen, vance won. If they listened, Walz blew it outta the water.
I’m a pragmatic optimist. We can never end evil acts by bad actors or destructive acts caused by nature and climate. I fully embrace the concept of “harm reduction”. This approach requires some compromises and is direct opposition to laws based on prejudice, privilege, power, religion or politics that use prohibition style approaches to every problem. I have to wonder why we act surprised when these types of laws or “three strikes you’re out” laws fail.
Really need to be spotlighting Trump's belief striking workers should be fired.
Collective bargaining (and unions) are the primary tools to provide fair wages, safe working conditions and quality of services and products.
In my opinion, fair wages reflect some percentage of profit being passed on to workers in the form of higher wages or production and quality of work bonuses.
When those at the top of the profit ladder set record profits some percentage of that needs to be shared with the workers who make that possible.
Couldn’t they wait till after the election?! Won’t this hurt the democrats???
I think it will. An awful lot of folks believe to differing degrees that a U.S. president needs only wave a magic wand and cure all or most troubles / problems. The attraction of MAGA, is that we minimize U.S. problems by only focusing on U.S. problems, as though we are some planet apart from earth. Ridiculous, but guess who got elected on that and religion, assorted other partial truths, lies, etc., etc.
We need to stop feeding the fire in the Middle East. Unconditional support of Israel as victim here is not working or compatible with the picture show. The difference between Israel defending itself and protecting its right to occupy more land ( which is what this is about) is lost. Biden is not able to communicate that. Kamala is stuck supporting Biden now making careful statments,
Those hit by the hurricanes need and get government relief and this is a matter of getting the message across. It could be a win.
Helping Ukraine is vital---more messaging needed.
Longshoremen want support- unions need support.. to an extent. This is democracy.
Well stated down the line, Potter. Thank you. On messaging, I wonder if this debate was like that of 1960 between Presidents Kennedy and Nixon. Those who watched it on television; tended to favour then Senator Kennedy. those who listened on the radio leaned toward then Vice President Nixon.
Yes, people are using two different ways of judging a person. The radio medium causes you to just listen to the words. The TV medium you are looking at demeanor, appearance, body language.
But now !!!?!???
??
Some of this seems intentional.
Regardless. It’s not good for business, as they say. In 1968, we tossed aside the most progressive administration since FDR and Abraham Lincoln because our conscience had finally shown the ignorance of Vietnam. Today we have the ignorance of Ukraine that didn’t need to be engaged. A simple No NATO would have sufficed. We never needed Ukraine in NATO. And the fact is that part of the negotiations will be a no nato promise so where was the gain?
We threw out the baby with the bath water in 1968 and hired Nixon. But Nixon doesn’t compare to Trump. If he gets in, it really ends granted, an imperfect
republic. It’s over.
Everything that Biden does from not on should be to benefit Harris. Using Taft/Hartley is a must to suspend the strike. My guess is he will call on his working class roots (I’m for the little guy) and not end the longshoremen who are not even voting for the democrats. Irony of ironies.
That is what I meant when I said it seemed intentional. They are going to work Biden for all they can get, and then vote for Trump, not understanding that gains under Biden can be lost right away under Trump/Vance.
As I sit in my front yard as usual sipping coffee after feeding the hungry herd of once 7 homeless cats (maybe I should eat one) and watch squirrels race back and forth across the street. I wonder how often these squirrels tempt their fate since one day a squirrel will run across then turn around seeing a car coming then turn around again only to get squished. Just like us humans.
wrong across the board.... Do you know what will or won't benefit Harris? Ukraine is a helluva lot more important than Israel at the moment. But the picture show has moved to Israel. Biden is backing Israel's occupation in effect, not it's security.And yes that does relate to getting votes for Harris because of the "pro Israel" vote here still wrongfully claiming it's all about October 7th. October 7th was about the occupation. Ukraine NATO happened after it was proved that the Budapest Agreement guaranteeing security for the country after it gave up its nukes, was not working. Ukraine needs a nuclear umbrella. Or else we have a Neanderthal world where might makes right with no basic laws and rules internationally.. AND nuclear proliferation.
The message must be- democracy-- here about the right to strike included.
If Trump gets in, which he should not be allowed to constitutionally, there will be violence... either way.
Well, I’m ready to volunteer. The New Very Old Gray Panthers. Watch out for them they are dangerous. On command, they will turn around unison, bend over and fart from up wind there destroying any who happen to be down wind. The MAGAs will fall.
Biden won't invoke the Taft-Hartley Act to end the strike because he's on the side of the union workers in the face of automation, while the corporations and the people who run them have made fortunes. Remember, he was the first U.S. president to join a picket line at the UAW auto strike in September of 2023.
Also, Trump is cozy with the president of the union leading the strike, and they were more than happy to offer this October surprise.
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10233845040092807&set=a.1079418750824
As much as I support union workers, the timing of this strike is unfortunate.
RIGHT IM SOOOO UPSET
Longshoreman leader has come out as a Trump supporter who wants to “cripple the country”. True trumpian lack of concern for our country.
And Biden is to thick-headed and stupid to invoke TH.
Trump lied that Georgia Governor Kemp had not heard from Biden regarding the hurricane damage.
Meanwhile, Kemp was publicly acknowledging receiving a phone call from Biden offering help.
If Trump cannot lie, he has nothing else to say.
Bill… I guess you missed the fact that the head of the dockworkers union was at Mar Amato 4 days ago… interestingly right after the hurricane… and maybe you also missed the fact that Netanyahu is in the same position as Trump in his country (he needs to remain in power or face jail time) and also recently met with Trump. Oh… and what timing for Russian backed Iran to fire missiles into Israel… such a barrage yet the only damage was 2 people hurt by shrapnel. Connect the dots Bill. This is all election interference and scare tactics. Annoying and frustrating but we must not be bullied or distracted by a bunch of greedy lying thieves.
Good points, Bill. Thank you. These events make debates more challenging for the Democratic ticket. What is a shame is that the message of the Middle East should be clear about foreign policy: while the United States is the most powerful country militarily, our influence only goes so far , , , and that is not far.
The dock-workers have a right for collective bargaining. Knowing President Biden's pro-Labor sympathies, the timing may be a gamble to induce President Biden to jaw-bone the management. Governor Gipper shone when he drove home the message that we need to work together for the good of all.
I am not sure that the natural disaster will hurt the ticket's prospects. President Biden is managing the situation quite well and Republican governors are thanking his Administration. The Democratic ticket should emphasize how state and local Republican politicoes are fact-checking the Republican ticket in real-time.
Why was trump involved???? Help me understand I saw a picture of him having a hand shake with the union leader????!
What timing I’m soooo upset about this someone help me understand??
I shall repeat this to my fellow democrats even though you don’t want to hear it and don’t like to hear it. Two major faults of the Biden administration that is going to follow him and her into the election:
1. There didn’t need to be a war in Ukraine. It wasn’t necessary. Putin demanded no NATO and we wouldn’t give it to him. Our secretary of defense quipped after the war began “Now we will run the military down.” That was the best he could manage. We are encouraging a war in order to run the military.
2. Biden was absent on the souther border and I know most of you heartily disagree. But he was until earlier this year. If Harris does t win, these two issues are the real ones that could have been avoided. The other issues we have had no control over. Of course, my opinion you may disagree. As you will.
No, I tend to agree with you, Bill, and appreciate your raising uncomfortable points. Denial will not work.🤝
B.L.U.F. (bottom-line, up-front): I am not particularly smart; at least, not nearly as smart as I like to believe me to be. But I have time to chew the cud. 🤫
There are responses to each point you raise, Bill, except, perhaps, for the strike. With several salient debates on the table, the messaging has to be discrete. One bite at a time. Pick the settings to answer only one point, in depth, at each outing; then focus on the future. 🔍
The rationale is that people are not dim-witted; they simply have too little time, in many or most cases, to be generalists. Educate the voters; doing so with all issues at once may be confusing events and argumentation in voters' mind, leaving the impression of muddled politics. 💡
I'm concerned about this too. We're so reactionary as a nation
I knew the Longshoremen chose to strike right now just to mess up the Dems in the election. Isn't that still a mob controlled union, and Trump is connected to both Traditional US mob and the Russian mob from what I read. I agree that Biden should end the strike and force both sides to the table. That might be a good union to get people training to do other things as automation takes over their jobs. In the Bulwark, as Tim Miller, Sarah Longwell, and Jonathan Last discussed the debate, they also discussed how the campaigns are doing and the strategies. Since I know Tim and Sarah worked for Republican campaigns before he became a democrat, and she an anti-Trump Republican they have a good knowledge of Republican voters. She in fact leads Republican Voters Against Trump, and has a big ad blitz coming out in 48 states in both videos and billboards. They know they need to get the vote out. Anyway, they discuss the effects that the strike and the escalated war will have. https://www.thebulwark.com/p/so-much-rage?utm_source=podcast-email&publication_id=87281&post_id=149718409&utm_campaign=email-play-on-substack&utm_content=watch_now_gif&r=f0qfn&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
Andra Watkins talks about the effects on people that Hurricane Helene would have if it were to take place a year from now and Trump were president and had enacted Project 2025, where FEMA no longer helps out with hurricane damage, maybe 25% but localities have to pay for 75%, and no more government flood insurance.
https://open.substack.com/pub/project2025istheocracy/p/what-project-2025s-disaster-response?r=f0qfn&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
That alone will be devastating, but add to that the humanitarian and financial disaster of deporting millions of so called illegals and you find that there is no one to help with clean up and rebuilding either, and people will be poorer because the tax base will be lower and the taxes higher. Goods will be less available because of the high tariffs, and people will have less child care, public schools may not exist, and child labor will be back in a big way. So, that disaster should be an opportunity to inform people what is planned with Project 2025, and that Trump is a big climate change denier.
...and the reason public schools may well not exist is ALEC (American Legislative Exchange Councill, which was co-founded by conservative activist Paul Weyrich, who also co-founded the Heritage Foundation.) ALEC pushed the concept of School Vouchers with the intent of destroying public education. They also provide bill models for copycatting in multiple states. Such things include privatization of prisons, rewriting the Constitution, the Powell Memorandum, Stand Your Ground laws, deregulation, etc. The organization is an advisor on Project 2025 as well.
Romney can't even take cues from other prominent GOP that are saying they are voting for Harris. Instead of helping bail out, he'll leave the ship, like a rat.
Romney has 13 million dollars received by the NRA and thoughts and prayers are enough for all the murdered children in school shootings and other citizens murdered while shopping or going to church ! I don't trust him for anything !
Let us not rush to judgement, here. Senator Romney has proven his statesmanship in the past and his courage, too. We may not have the whole picture. For example, in the Senator's very good mind, the timing of an endorsement may be important. If he endorses Vice President Harris now, as he is indirectly, in actuality, Senator Romney's endorsement will be old news. But on All Saints Day, that may be more impactful.
P.S., just checked: Representative Curtis, the G.O.P. nominee to succeed Senator Romney apparently is a moderate. Senator Romney's endorsement now might roil Representative Curtis's campaign.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/06/25/john-curtis-wins-utah-senate-00165005
I kind of respect Romney for knowing what's true, Linda, and yet he seems wimpish to me. Also, I don't think it will make any difference to his and fam's security at this point no matter what he does. Violent MAGAs have already been unleashed.
I'm outside the US, and like you I already voted straight blue, but I watched the debate until I got bored. I missed the big reveal that Vance won't say who won the '20 election. Yawn.
I think he can afford to leave the USA and take his whole family. They may not want to go though.
It really WAS boring.
I love 'Google Translate: Ich freue mich, dass Sie bereits a bgestimmt haben but, I don't know how to say German words that have 2 'mm's.
pronounce the double letter as if it's one. Not like Spanish or Italian that wants us to pronounce both double consonants. So be befreut as you wish about their Stimmung ...
Just keep your lips together.
Always very difficult for an ex-Trial Attorney. :---)
Good one! Love humor.
🤣🤣🤣
(Laughter)!
🤭
And GW.
Jeff Flake did so.
Romney's fear makes him unable to act responsibly when courage could make him do the right thing and know that he would be supported by many other good souls.
Wait a sec. Senator Romney voted twice to remove President Trump. Had he been in the Senate in 2018, I believe firmly that he would have been the only Republican openly to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with then Senator Flake.
Yes! So, why does he not have the same courage now -- when it could benefit so many by actually preventing the power grab of these anti-Constitutional forces?
Senator Romney does. He has endorse the Vice President indirectly. If Senator Romney endorsed the Democratic now, it would have little impact as opposed to a 'saintly' endorsement on 01nov24. Also, an open endorsement might under-cut the G.O.P. nominee seeking to succeed the Senator. Representative Curtis is an anti-Trump Republican.
Well, since he was here for a time, I guess Massachusetts could offer him sanctuary if, god forbid, T**** wins. He can be part of the army of grandfathers who will do everything necessary to keep the orange menace and his mini-me out of the Oval Office.
I don't know if you have been reading Project 2025, but I think it is going to be a lot like what Hitler did, so, he had his enemies list and he had the people shot. The Supreme Court has already offered him immunity to go rogue. Since P2025 is about turning the USA into a Christian Nationalist Theocracy, with everyone either getting with the program willingly, or unwillingly. Still, there is clearly plans for massive killings of people. That is why Romney, who is not smart enough to be a Democrat, but is smart enough to know what might await him, is thinking about leaving the US, because no state will be safe. Look at Putin now. In fact, Putin, Saudi Arabia, Iran, China have let people know that they can reach them anywhere in the world.
I haven't taken time to read P2025... yet. I've pondered Romney's plan (to leave the US) and wonder if he knows more than he's telling. A T**** victory will be an unmitigated disaster: it would not surprise me if it started a civil war. He must be stopped. We have no other option.
Yes! What the heck is WRONG with Mitt?!
David, Regrettably, Trump’s and Vance’s remarks, while revealing as you noted, don’t have nearly the impact of their rhetoric actually being subjected to critical scrutiny in real time. Hence, I wasn’t surprised by some Harris supporters, who claimed that Vance won last night’s debate, though I should note, contrary to claiming Vance’s slick performance would benefit Trump, the consensus is that Vance helped himself.
Yeah, Vance managed to at least look "sane" when contrasted to the incoherent insanity that typically spews from the mouth of Trump. Of course if you dig even the slightest bit deeper you see that he still sits on a huge stack of lies and misrepresentations but Vance's handlers packaged him well for the debate.
Jon, Frankly, I consider it malpractice, let alone a threat to democracy, for any media outlet to cede its responsibility to live-fact-check our candidates. Likewise, I think it a disservice to voters to expect candidates to both fully present their policy agendas and also thoroughly fact-check each other.
It’s not a debate. Two minutes to answer a question is ridiculous. Best part—the fact check of Haitians in Spfld that Vance called out. 🙏🏼let’s see that over and over on the morning talk shows. The moderators did a great job maintaining order and turned off mics at least once.
As I understand it, the "no fact checking" rule was required by the Trump campaign. So it was either agree or no debate at all. I am honestly torn on this. In a true debate, moderators DO NOT fact check, that is the job of the debaters. So in that respect, at least, this was MORE like a real debate than a parallel press interview which is what most Presidential debates are like. And while I would have liked the moderators to call out the real "whoppers " for me it was important to see the candidates. So there you have it. No way to force it to be any other way of one side demands it.
I agree, Barbara Jo, and yet those that are already in the tank for the felon won't believe the fact checks, and those in the tank for Harris already know the standard lies the right spews. I have no idea what the undies think or believe about anything, or if they do think or believe anything... if they did how could they still be making up their so-called minds?
Barbara, I am not sure where you get the idea that the media has some responsibility to "fact- check" during a debate. And I would much rather HAVE a debate than not have one which I expect would be the result if they insisted on fact checking. You can only do what you can do. I know that sounds feeble but it is in fact what it is.
I agree with Barbara - the thing is run by the media. It's a glorified press conference, only 2 mins allowed per question. Phew! That's enough to make anyone's less-practiced brow wrinkle.
I believe it is the media's responsibility to report the facts. It's irresponsible to allow non-factual statements to be voiced under their aegis without correction. But you are probably right, Jon, that there wouldn't be any debates if fact checking were de rigueur.
Brava Barbara!
I wish the moderator had responded to Senator vance's push-back by saying, "Sir, I am making a clarification. I am not fact-checking you." That might have de-railed Senator Vance's persona and led to an unflattering bout of urinary olympics.
Sane snake oil salesman.
Some "facts." Trump was convicted of 34 felony counts. Many cases outstanding. Depicts himself as a victim. No evidence that Biden or Harris targeted him in any way. The "big lie" is a lie.
Uses victimhood to sell "merch" daily.
Does Vance personally benefit from the sale of the merch? Does he hold or did he ever hold any Trump Social stock? If so, details.
After attending Yale Law School , Vance had a career in venture capitalism. He spent a few years in Silicon Valley working at Mithril Capital and later launched his own firm, Narya, in Ohio. Narya was backed with about $US100 million from Peter Thiel and a cadre of his acquaintances, including former Google chief executive Eric Schmidt and prominent venture capitalists Marc Andreessen and Scott Dorsey. Vance financial statement. https://www.businessinsider.com/read-jd-vance-financial-disclosure-net-worth-bitcoin-fec-report-2024-8
As well as Rumble and Anduril, Narya owns a stake in dozens more private companies, including Strive Asset Management, an investment fund started by former Republican presidential candidate-turned-Trump backer, Vivek Ramaswamy – who was also a former Vance classmate at Yale. Strive has built stakes in corporate giants such as Apple and Disney to urge them to keep “woke” politics out of their businesses.
When Vance decided to run for US Senate barely a year later, Thiel was his biggest donor in the 2022 Senate race, giving $US15 million to a super PAC that backed him. He also introduced Vance to Trump for the first time at his Palm Beach golf club, Mar-a-Lago.
Vance left Narya after being elected to the Senate, by which time he had built stakes in more than 100 start-up companies, according to federal records that showed Vance’s financial interests that year. Many of them are companies Thiel founded or backed. Still holds an interest.
_____________________________________
Vance claims Trump ‘peacefully’ transferred power in 2020! Where was he that day? Does Vance have any personal information about Jan 6? Has he been asked to testify? https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/jd-vance-stands-certifying-2020-election-voter-fraud-rcna161984
_________________________
As recently as last week Vance attacked Zelinsky. "While his support [of] Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been unwavering and he has shown an an openness to strongmen such as Hungary’s Viktor Orbán, [Vance] has questioned unequivocal aid for Taiwan and called for a swift end to the war in Ukraine — potentially allowing Russia to keep annexed territory — will worry Kyiv and its NATO allies."
It's unfortunate that Walz or the moderators did not bring up, even tangentially, the fact that Trump has been convicted of 34 felony counts of fraud and of sexual assault.
Great analysis, Daniel. I would like to add the distortion by Senator Vance of the Minnesota abortion law. That law seems very balanced. In fact, it provides "grants" to enable a mother to choose to take the pregnancy to term.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/text.php?number=SF70&version=latest&session=ls93&session_year=2023&session_number=0
Here is the quote that I believe -- or, more realistically, that I can find -- is being distorted into the canard of killing viable foetuses: "For purposes of this section, 'abortion' means the use of any means to terminate the pregnancy of a woman known to be pregnant with knowledge that the termination with those means will, with reasonable likelihood, cause the death of the fetus and 'fetus' means any individual human organism from fertilization until birth."
Of course, I may have lapsed in my attention and skipped the language allowing live foetuses to die.
P.S., this language may be arguing against permitting live foetuses to die.
"Any person who shall endeavor attempts to conceal the birth of a child by any disposition of its dead body, whether when the child died before or after its birth, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. Every person who, having been convicted of endeavoring to conceal the stillbirth of any issue, or the death of any issue under the age of two years, shall, subsequent to that conviction, endeavor to conceal any subsequent birth or death, shall be punished by imprisonment for not more than five years."
"
The only thing most voters need to know about Vance is that he would put a national abortion ban in place in a heart beat. One ad that shows him saying publicly what he thinks about abortion, women staying in abusive marriages, the admission that he created Springfield story, and him waffling on '20 winner, should do the trick to discredit him. Not that the low info voters will be aware of any of it.
Vance painted a picture of supporting families so women can continue on with an unwanted pregnancy. I have a sneaking feeling that they will try to outlaw pregnancy outside of marriage, enforcing female celibacy by law.
Really? Because I was screaming at my TV that this is a slick lying snake we’re dealing with.
The disappointment for me was that Governor Gipper was defensive about the timing of his stay in China. I wish he had shrugged his shoulders and said something like, "Well, I am busted. My memory can mash things up. Thank you for the correction. The important point here is how I reacted to being in Hong Kong during the fall-out of the 1989 massacre. I started bringing American students to China, not only to promote goodwill, but also to let Chinese kids an example of growing up in a free and democratic society."
OF COURSE, easy for me to say. On that stage, I would have been a pillar of salt.
Inasmuch as visual first impressions mean a lot and Governor Gipper was slow out of the gate but came on very strong as the evening progressed, I wonder if this debate was like that of 1960 between Presidents Kennedy and Nixon. Those who watched it on television; tended to favour then Senator Kennedy; those who listened on the radio leaned toward then Vice President Nixon.
It made for unfortunate optics to see the top of the governor's head while the senator was talking. He was taking copious notes and that made the Vance performance seem more polished, especially as he looked at Walz when he was speaking. Sigh... Neither moved the needle in terms of winning over the six undecideds but it does concern me that the optics will get more play than the content.
MisTBlu, To ease your concerns, I understand the Harris campaign’s objective for Walz was to do no harm, which, in my view, he didn’t. As for Vance, if the consensus that Vance, rather than benefitting Trump, helped elevate himself as the party’s stand bearer post Trump is accurate, given our working orders for the next 5 weeks, I believe we can dispense with spending any more calories on last night’s debate performance.
"Vance’s goal was harder: to give people a reason to vote for Donald Trump. It is doubtful he moved any needles there."
Vance's goal was to appear 'more likable' than he has on the trail. It was always a question of who'd show up - Trump's MiniMe yap dog or the Yalie best selling author of a thousand book tours. Vance nailed that. 'The devil doesn't always wear horns.'
Missed opportunities: to delineate between president and veep and debunk 'the Harris administration'; to ask why abortion is the only healthcare where treatment is decided by voters not medical professionals - the medical standard of practice for bleeding to death and risk of sepsis are the same for a person in Texas or NYC and whether or not its aetiology is the uterus; and to point out that many Central Americans are seeking asylum because the US is deporting violent criminals from US gangs, exporting weaponry, and has a largely untreated addicted population hungry for deadly drugs.
President/VP: Walz got in a neat one: "That's why it's not Pence on stage here tonight".
That was so telling a remark, and I wondered if it landed with anyone else, too!
lin, I appreciate your reply, particularly your astute observations of missed opportunities.
Walz has said on several occasions that he wasn't a good debater.
I was raised in NE as well, and I prefer not to engage face to face because, the endorphines (sp) take over and I go into attack mode, which really serves no purpose.
It looks like Vance lied and refused to answer key questions which is as much as I could hope for. Plus, Walz's likeablity was off the charts at 59% favorable/22% unfavorable while Vance was at 41%/42% favorable to unfavorable.
Talk about the less-than-salutary things the U.S. exports.
Add in, lin, regrettably, standardized testing. It's become so dominant in many countries aping the U.S. that schools in many countries now teach only to the test.
In Japan, where I live, no school asks any student to read any book entire, reports Minae Mizumura in "The Fall of Language in the Age of English" (Columbia U Press trans. 2016).
All the culture just gets hacked up into meaningless fragments suitable only for the nationally imposed standardized tests.
It's not just that the living dead rule, but that the forms of death promote visions of life totally categorical, totally linear, as if there were nothing personal or natural in life, only the relentless machineries all gradable by computer. No humans involved at any level.
And in college (finally!) no student ever reads anything. All get passing scores just by You Tube videos providing the otherwise dead info.
Standardized testing has been in existence since the Han Dynasty in China. I note that your view of education is quite sour. Yes, it's changed a lot but that's not recent. In 1986 Professor Neal Postman published, "Amusing Ourselves To Death," a stinging assessment of the effect that television was having on his students.
IIRC, Japan has had a test-based education system for nearly seventy years.
I appreciated Walz comments on Healthcare in Minnesota, especially after finding over the years that everywhere I went that the Doctor's I thought best for me turned out to have interned at Mayo Clinic facilities. I didn't realize it until I watched the Ken Burns documentary at https://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-mayo-clinic/
I was struck by the collaborative exchanges between up to 6 Doctors in an example I think I saw there, and the similar collaboration at the Loma Linda University Healthcare system. When I mentioned the documentary and collaborative efforts, everyone of the specialists I saw told me they had interned at a Mayo Clinic.
One of them had signed up expecting to intern at the Scottsdale AZ clinic but was somewhat disappointed to be sent to Rochester, Minnesota, a much colder climate than he expected. I asked about the long underground tunnels to get between the buildings (described in the documentary). He appreciated the tunnels but his preferred outdoor activities were not suited to the climate in the winter.
We split time between Blue Hill, ME and Ponte Vedra, FL for almost 20 years. Except on rare occasion, all of our medical care was handled in FL. Almost every doctor we saw, was Mayo trained. The Mayo facility in Jacksonville has over 10,000 employees and they have two hotels on campus because of the people that seek treatment there from all over the world.
And when a doctor had had enough of the Mayo they often chose to practice in the area. The medical care we have received in ME pales in comparison, mostly because of the lack of doctors that are will to practice in ME as I imagine you are aware.
I agree. The way each said he'd be happy to give the winner any assistance he could was endearing! That WAS good optics. I was more concerned about Walz's constantly anguished expression than the frequent view of the top of his head, then decided he was only conveying serious concentration, not distress.
I agree that Walz has an unintended permanent frown whenever he isn't actively smiling. When Kamala debated, she put on a masterclass of facial expressions. I wish Walz had learned from that. It occurred to me, though, that 1. Men are not taught how to react with facial openness since they are taught to be "stoic"
2. Even if he had shown more emotion, he would have been lambasted for the same stoic reasoning.
3. Most top politicians have some acting skills, and Walz doesn't have as much as Vance, who has to act well to deliver as many lies as he did with a straight face.
Agree entirely! Jennifer Rubin and Dana Millbank both had very good columns in yesterday's WaPo. I was very pleased by Millbank's view.
wapo.st/3XRIYXE
I agree. Walz looked pained and nervous. I watched this man through many Covid briefings for the state and he can come across as concerned and knowledgable. His speech was pressured and both did that annoying thing where they fail to answer a fairly straightforward question. (How much time should a mother have for paid maternity leave, for example.)It was evident there were talking points drilled in during debate prep for both. I did like a bit of back and forth giving credit for reasonable solutions to problems, but there was minimal recognition that little gets done without the cooperation of congress and nothing gets done with the current House of Representatives. It was super annoying to have Vance bring up discredited lies about illegal Haitians and killing babies after they are born. They just can't let those go.
Cameron, I agree. Walz did look nervous, at least at first, and he was asked the first question, which he failed to answer. Vance was also asked the question, and he, too, didn't answer it. Between those non-responces and Vance's continued lies, especially about immigration in general, I had enough and switched the channel to Netflix.
I'll add that, whenever Vance brought up "the (current) Harris administration", Walz didn't correct him. He ought to have said something along the lines of "President Biden is still in charge, and VP Harris continues to be proud of the accomplishments made during this administration."
This is exactly why I didn't watch the debate and waited for the sound clips analyzed by MSNBC and John Fugelseng.
Walz admitted he wasn't a debater on day 1 and I thought he did just fine. Vance hung himself especially at the end.
I haven't changed my mind about Trump since 2015. I literally hate the guy for destroying the Republican Party. ALL of the Republican politicians at every level of government have turned into sniveling sycophants. If they don't they get tossed out the door like Liz Cheney.
I don't remember who said it or when but, "I would vote for an empty tomato can before I vote for Donald Trump." And until the Project 2025 MAGAs are declawed, I won't vote for a Republican at any level of government.
I'm determined to get the word out about Project 2025. With my election action group in Seattle I've put together a collection of concept maps (with page #s!) to help people understand the magnitude of damage MAGA wants to do and be able to bring the receipts in their discussions with other voters. I'd like this to get in front of as many people as possible. Please share the web link with everyone in your network and ask them to share with everyone in their network. Here's my post: https://substack.com/home/post/p-149586096?r=11kr2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web and here's the link directly to the web page: https://fidlnfree.com/rwb.html. Thanks!
Gary, I'm also a Day Zero Never Trumper, and although I've never voted for a Rep, I'm open should the situation be reversed in the future.
I watched MSNBC post debate. They had a reporter on site at a college watch party, and one young man made a HUGE point that the debate missed: Vance kept referring to what the "Harris Administration " did or did not do in 3 1/2 years--and the young man said " Civics class!-- nobody asked either of them what they would do on Day 1, because that's not in the power of the VP." Does Vance think HE will preside over Trump? Does Trump know this? Or does Vance plan to invoke the 25th on "day one's? Seriously, BIDEN is POTUS, not Harris! Do we want ANOTHER Republican who doesn't understand the Constitution in our highest office?
It's not the first time I've heard Vance and Trump both complain that Harris has had 3-1/2 years to put her plans into place. They refer to the Harris administration. I have heard NO ONE come back to these comments. Harris is VP NOT President!. She hasn't had an "administration". She hasn't had 3-1/2 years to put her plans into place. I have NOT heard anyone (Walz included) reply to those accusations. I think it needs to be stated... not taken for granted that voters know.
"Before and after his selection as Donald Trump’s running mate, Mr. Vance said repeatedly that if he had been vice president on Jan. 6, 2021, he would have intervened in the electoral count in favor of President Trump."
opinion section: NYTimes, Matthew A. Seligman
Somebody wrote, somewhere, in the last day or so, that the principal function of the vice president is to be alive if the president happens not to be.
I agree. Vance repeatedly attributed power to Harris she doesn't have as VP. It's like he doesn't know what the VP does. It was obviously a gaslighting tactic to suck in low info voters. I just wish Walz had found a way to counter it without disavowing the Biden Harris admin or saying Harris is weak.
Walz did say at one point that laws get made by Congress, not by the Execs. That, imho, is more salient than that Biden is prez retort, because it shows Vance doesn't know his current job, much less the one he's running for.
Put it down to nervousness - this was the one opportunity. Yes, the quick answer to "why didn't she do it then" accusations "She wasn't the President".
I agree that Walz should have made that important distinction between the president and vice president. He missed that opportunity several times.
That was a lost opportunity to not correct Vance's repeated assertion that it was the "Harris Administration." I wonder how he'd feel if the failures of Trump were laid at his feet.
Walz unscripted is kryptonite to the shit that flies out of Trump and and Vance’s mouths. An overprepared Walz is a Walz not in his natural element. I doubt he had a script in front of him when he was talking to his football team at halftime. I think Harris should ratchet up his time and let him be him in front of lots and lots of people. Unscripted. It’s the unscripted decency that will push some of those idiotic fence sitters over onto the blue side.
You know, the original discomfort or hesitancy that I imagined Walz was feeling, initially, faded away with my deep sense that Walz speaks from a center of decency and truth. He was able to clearly present the wonderful successes his state has enjoyed under his leadership as governor. I felt he did a great job and Vance merely excelled at debate 101...that is, dance around the facts, pretend they support your POV and never concede to inconvenient facts. As for the entire debate, I could not turn away or go do something else, as tired as I was.
Yes, I prayed Walz would manage an enormous smack down. However, I would argue that what he presented was the ability of a rational individual, who fundamentally disagrees with his opponent, to do so with dignity and courtesy and admirable decorum. Over the last "too many" years, this has been so disturbingly absent. Vance joined him in rational debate but his was not an entirely "honest" debate of facts. Arguably, even dangerous people can present themselves as rational to an unengaged listener attentive to the lies and evasions. Vance had many.
Somewhat more telling, to me, is a piece that Rachel Maddow presented the night before the debate, which I wholeheartedly recommend. IMHO, it reveals the DARK underside, the massive threat to democracy, that Vance, his apparent main support, Peter Thiel, and, of course, the dark money that pumps that (anti-democratic) movement, present to the US, congress and the constitution. IMHO, in light of the above revelation about Vance's unguarded comments on democracy's future, the importance of debate performances pale in comparison:
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/watch-rachel-maddow-lays-out-why-you-should-care-about-jd-vance-s-real-agenda-220521029601
My take: Walz was ultimately believable and even inspirational as he talked about the successes his state has had in numerous nationally trying issues. IMHO, Vance's evasions did nothing to help his candidacy, and especially after Rachel Maddow's examination of his documented record of extreme political ideas and intent.
We watched the TRMS presentation right before the debate (I have a Monday night rehearsal, so we record it and watch it later). It was freaking scary.
I agree 100%. I’m disappointed in most of the analysis of the debate so far, which seems to very much emphasize style over substance. Sure, JD seemed smooth and polished (or smarmy and slick IMHO) but I thought Walz’s innate decency and likeability shone through despite his “nervousness.” I might describe his affect as earnest rather than nervous, but that’s neither here nor there. What I think gets lost in the coverage that focuses on Vance’s smarmy lies, is that Walz made some very good, substantial points on issues of importance to voters, like abortion, climate, healthcare and, of course, Jan. 6th. Doubtful that this moves the needle much in the election, but discerning viewers who actually care about character in their elected officials will have sorted the liar from the decent truth teller within about 5 minutes.
I couldn't agree more. Also saw TRMS about 2 hours before the debate.
Perhaps they could have a quiz show contest playing back Vance's extreme range of claims and positions, alternating between each extreme, and have contestants try to guess when he said what and to what type of audience.
I do have to hand it to him though for not claiming the audience loved his performance (like Trump did at the other debate without an audience).
Agreed!
Quote- “An overprepared Walz is a Walz not in his natural element. I doubt he had a script in front of him when he was talking to his football team at halftime.”
Wm Burke, you nailed it!! Walz was not himself. Practicing with Pete Buttigieg was probably not the right tactic. Pete, like Vance, is a skilled debater, talks fast with a command of the facts and speaks with authority. That is not Walz and he couldn’t become that sort of person regardless of how much pre-debate prep they did. Governor Walz is a compassionate, thoughtful person who, in his element, can shine a bright light on false information and hypocrisy. I found the debate hard to watch for those reasons.
That is exactly why Walz needed to practice against that kind of debater. He would have been caught in headlights like a deer otherwise, just like Biden was at Trump’s outrageous gish Gallop.
Same damn problem with Biden: they over prepared an exhausted Biden who could have dealt with any question with no testing or "practice". He had a few dozen "helpers" prepping him at Camp David.
Biden should been relaxing and taking walks with Jill.
I just want to point out that unscripted is not what is really needed. All quick, coherent speech (worthy of repetition), are not usually unscripted, they are so highly rehearsed that they sound natural and unscripted. But they are honed arguments practiced over and over.
And the “killing babies after birth” thing is just so stupid on its face.
We've heard that so many times now that it's getting sillier, may end up getting laughed at.
Not in my world. I had this argument with a former sergeant of mine (and one would assume that we'd both be relatively familiar with the definitions of homicide and infanticide) who insisted that killing a baby after it was born was a "post-birth abortion" and lawful. WTAF?
The "killing babies after they're born" thing is based on the fact that some states don NOT require extraordinary measures to preserve the lives of infants born with devastating defects and unable to survive normally. It's a thin but VERY important line between mercy killing and mercy allowing-nature-to-take-its-course.
Friendly correction: their "post-birth abortion" argument isn't about "mercy killing," it's about killing a healthy baby just because. Babies born with devastating defects are given palliative care. Measures to relieve pain can lead to death, which makes it a mercy.
That's the twist exPINO is putting on it - claiming the compassionate medical response to a tragic situation amounts to "post birth abortion." You two don't disagree.
yes, Walz might have done more fact checking though the moderators did not....
Love the slip-up of "little gets done without the cooperation of congress."
You of course meant to say, "the cooperation of Congress," the institution. The "cooperation of congress" describes quite different activity.
:-)
JD addressed Gov. Walz as Tim, and referred to him also as Tim. To me this was a dominance display move. I wish Gov. Walz had addressed JD as “JD” or else very pointedly addressed him as Senator.
I am sure Walz was ready for a firehose of lies, but some were mind-boggling, and Walz couldn’t help looking stunned at the audacity of “Trump saved Obamacare.” But still, he stuck to the facts, according to the Guardian (except for pregnancy registration not being in Project 2025) while Vance told seven whoppers.
I blame Walz's handlers for that. When he was focused on the desk, the site of his floppy face was disheartening. And, his outfit didn't come close to Vance's expensive and colorful getup. Isn't there a budget in the millions the campaign took in to costume the VP for the one and only debate??
Palin was provided with a wardrobe that cost more than $150,000. Her then-husband and pregnant-out-of-wedlock daughter were also styled by pros. It is clear from photos and videos that wardrobe is very low on the list of concerns of Tim Walz.
Judith, the devil wears Prada, or the male equivalent?
Allow me to suggest that you perceive Vance as a cunning liar vs chump a pathological liar!
He is even more dangerous. And if tech bros get their way 3rd time will be a charm and they will install pretty boy to do their bidding as quickly as possible.
Vance was as slick as his background indicated he would be. But that last question skewered him, the "damnable non-reply". I loved the way the moderators just cut their mikes when they got out of hand.
Right and if Trump noticed we can expect to see Trump start degrading Vance, according to the authoritarian playbook that Prof. Ruth Ben-Ghiat describes.
https://open.substack.com/pub/lucid/p/the-age-of-the-authoritarian-bully?r=f0qfn&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
It seems to me that all folks like Trump and Vance do is help themselves at our expense.
GW, a total cipher, a vain narcissist. One of our worst presidents with blood on his hands who led us to the brink of an economic collapse. Obama/Biden came to the rescue.
NPR did a nice job of fact checking Vance, and I'm glad I watched the debate through them.
Anyone else notice if you went directly to CBS.com you had to verify your TV provider? As if you can't just watch CBS over the air?
Matt, Thank you for writing. I didn’t know NPR was fact-checking in real time. More importantly, I wonder how many voters who don’t already support Harris were viewing the debate similarly.
No not in real time, just in the commentary afterwards.
Matt, I appreciate the clarification. Regrettably, then, the concern I posted as part of this thread should concern us all.
Yes, as I understand it the: "rights" to rebroadcast the debate live we granted only if "live fact checking" was not done by the rebroadcaster. This included MSNBC and NPR (we switched back and forth and noticed no immediate fact checking being done on either).
Our best issue is that Trump is incompetent to stand trial, let alone carry out an oath of office. He was grifter in chief as president. Not a word about his false accusations about Biden, Kamala, all of which are easily proven.
As to Vance, he is Putin's choice to be president. Ukraine is our issue.
Charges have been brought against him in Ohio for making false charges about Haitians. The Republican governor and the mayor of Springfield call him a liar.
Fact-checking the vice-presidential debate between Vance and Walz
21 claims that deserve scrutiny, most of them from Vance
https://wapo.st/3XS4zzg
Thanks for the link. I've unsubscribed from WaPo, so it was good to see this.
I've turned off auto-renewal but I have it until June. Have posted tons of Kirchner complaints but this time it was on the mark though I don't like their relaxed attitude over Project 2025.
I watched it on C-SPAN while following along in Scott Dworkin's chat. Another follower posted Politifact fact-checking in close to real time. I took screenshots and would share, but we can't post photos here.
You can't watch any legacy network program without being a subscriber. I watched the debates on the BBC live feed. It was also available on C-SPAN.
We have three TVs that are internet connected. No cable. But they also have antennas. Last I checked, we can watch the local CBS, NBC, ABC, PBS stations over the air - usually in very high definition. That may not be true in areas too far from the stations.
I just fiddled around until someone let me in. No problem. Middle of Wednesday in Australia, very convenient.
We cut cable and have an antenna. I paid around $80 for it and sometimes it gets cranky, but thats what the rabbit ears and tin foil are for!!
Post them to Notes and give the link here.
from Canada I could watch on CBS's side without saying I watched that network live.
Those who have positive comments for Vance are also liars! He’s a LIAR, period! He admitted it, period! The only thing Vance offered was more lies and the two tv media pawns lost any journalistic credibility by agreeing not to fact check!
Vance was good one ‘talking head’ writes! Nah, he is not even a good liar! Weird isn’t it’!
What we say on stage was a glib bulldog fighting to create an autocracy vs. Mr. Middle America bolstering the need to preserve our democracy!
Fact-checking the vice-presidential debate between Vance and Walz
21 claims that deserve scrutiny, most of them from Vance
https://wapo.st/3XS4zzg
Well-put, David -- getting the pair matched for their annoyance at fact checking.
Their tens of millions, however, have no such standards as some in the press level at the two, so I cringe at how Tim got the admission in the end that this pair will continue to field their lies about the 2020 election results and about the violent insurrection of Jan. 6.
I say this as it's reminder not just of how eager the tens of millions are for their group cult, but how the lies go along with their larger lies necessary going forward to vilify immigrants, black and brown people, and women who value their own personal and family decisions.
All this just drives home, again, how U.S. schools so largely now do nothing but prepare so many for nothing more than group corralling, life as nothing more than abstracted categories, and all the other conceits built into the standardized testing that so largely anymore rules out any real education schools might provide.
There were a number of occasions where Vance simply ignored the question and gave us his spiel on something. Walz called him out on his non-response to the question of whether Trump won or lost the 2020 election. More of that should have taken place.
Well, he had a lot of lines rehearsed on topics he knew would come up, so he had to tick off all his talking points.
So right. I find it hard to believe that you have to negotiate around fact checking in real time. If you are truthful what do you need to fear. That is BS on the networks part as they should be 100% behind the truth.
And then they cry, "how come you never fact check Kamala-Walz??"
hell-O!!!
To be hopeful in bad times is not foolishly romantic. It is based on the fact that human history is a history not only of cruelty, but also of compassion, sacrifice, courage, kindness.
You Can’t Be Neutral on a Moving Train. Activist and Teacher Howard Zinn
"You promised not to tell me I'm lying when I'm lying."
Bingo!
I wonder why T&V is so resistance to fact-checking. Dah!!!!!!!!
How to know they just don't care when they JUST DON'T CARE!
how true.
Precisely!
Asking for more details is definitely against the rules in dirty politics.
Can you imagine if Vance would have had to face Mike Wallace????
Wallace would have shredded him.
Vance lost the whole debate (in MY not so humble opinion) when he uttered that phrase.
Vance could have just as easily said "oh, that's true but not the issue. The issues is that we've let in far too many people who are undermining these communities, legal or not..." I 100% do not agree with that sentiment, but it would have been a better response than "gee, I thought was I going to be able to lie through this."
Presenting lies with a smooth talk are considered a win by most journalists. If so, packaging poisons beautifully for selling is a good marketing. Trump and Vance are corrupt but so are journalists.
Thank you, Heather.
My wife and I were pleased with Tim Walz’s performance. As for JD Vance’s: even the devil can present as being intelligent, measured, reasonable, even likable - if one doesn’t know better. Thanks, in no small part to you, we do.
Yes, Tim Walz was caught a few times being nervous, and probably forgot that he was being filmed. But he stayed cool, and was very articulate and detailed oriented.
I was hoping the subject of who is going to harvest our food from America’s farms and vineyards, if all of our migrant workers get deported per Project 2025.
Great point! People forget that sure there are jobs but an awful lot of them aren't ones that American citizens want, like picking fruit and harvesting vegetables. A significant part of our food supply is handled by migrant workers, many of whom are sadly illegal. We should make ALL of them legal (I personally believe we need to open our borders not close them so there I part company with Harris and Biden and Walz).
like marrying Donald Trump, there are some jobs Americans just won't do....
(Laughter) He got caught by the second dalliance.
Where’s Melanie? The queen in her guided Mar a Lago suite really couldn’t care less.
Saw a meme (& living in Florida & having worked for a citrus company can truly appreciate it!) as follows:
I keep waiting for someone to tell me, “Yeah, I was a fruit picker until those illegals showed up.”
"I personally believe we need to open our borders not close them so there I part company with Harris and Biden and Walz"
Sitting around a dinner table with a late night glass of wine, you might find they joined you. Especially if there were no mics or notepads around.
Ah, the cowardice of public office LOL. That is why I never ran for anything. I couldn't handle the hypocrisy. That and I smoked way too much pot when I was growing up!
The way things are nowadays, I'm surprised you haven't started lighting up again. . .
I'm determined to get the word out about Project 2025. With my election action group in Seattle I've put together a collection of concept maps (with page #s!) to help people understand the magnitude of damage MAGA wants to do and be able to bring the receipts in their discussions with other voters. I'd like this to get in front of as many people as possible. Please share the web link with everyone in your network and ask them to share with everyone in their network. Here's my post: https://substack.com/home/post/p-149586096?r=11kr2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web and here's the link directly to the web page: https://fidlnfree.com/rwb.html. Thanks!
The problem is that the people who will decide this election don't read this blog. And what they saw last night doesn't make me feel a lot better about Harris' chances of winning. I liked what Jen Psaki said after the debate on MSNBC... Walz's handlers tried too hard to keep him "on point" which completely ignored his strength which is sincerity. Sure he bumbles a bit (like most of us would) but his content is reality and must prone can see and feel that. He did better in the later part of the debate but from where I sat, he certainly didn't win any extra votes for Harris except maybe when he pinned Vance on the "who won the 2020 election" question. Vance simply can't answer that question (and didn't) and anyone who picked that up will know how that fits into into nonsense of the GOP campaign. Sigh, I just wish it had been a lot more of that throughout the debate.
Yeah, there were a couple times when I wish Walz had called Vance out on some of his made-up facts. For all the talk from MAGAs about losing jobs to China, the fact is that in the last 2 years, the U.S. has seen unprecedented investment in the manufacturing sector. Some of that is related to the CHIPS Act and other Biden initiatives, but that money has been leveraged by private capital. Talking about manufacturing moving jobs overseas is so 1990s, in my opinion. The game has changed, folks.
🎯💯
"As for JD Vance’s: even the devil can present as being intelligent, measured, reasonable, even likable"
Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste...
For someone who lies about the past and denies the present, it seems foolish to trust Vance with anything regarding the future.
Another Trump term would be extremely damaging, but then 2 more Vance terms after that when they've "fixed" elections?!?!
the malignant narcissist tried to have one Vice President killed ("hang Mike Pence!") and doesn't tolerate being upstaged - he said the role is inconsequential because he never intends for there to be a line of succession to his dictatorship and dynasty.
T and Vance together make me wonder if Shakespeare's tragedy "Julius Caesar" is about to be played out in real life...
Seth Abramson pitches Vance as a sort of Trump temporary placeholder for Trump’s dynastic plan for the foreseeable decades ahead. He includes Vance as part of The Family - and supports that thesis partly with the fact that Vance is best friends with Don Jr… who was key in Vance’s nomination.
It was an interesting read in yesterday’s Substack. Long as usual.
The Vances. Peter Thiel's dystopian Camelot couple.
Friends with Don Jr....? Ah.
Et tu JD?
It is indeed
hear, hear! Agreed
EGREGIOUSLY foolish!
YES, Kathy.
My Midwestern upbringing, like Senator Walz, has me “holding my tongue” regarding anything Virulent Vance has to say. However, it would be unwise to put this “meekness” to the test. It is satisfying to see that the Haitian community in Ohio has a lawsuit in the works regarding the debacle perpetrated by citizen Phlegm (former president) and Vance. Not holding my breath for any real Justice to proceed any time soon, but, I remain Hopeful that some sort of penalty will ensue.
Personally, I was delighted to see how the ladies stopped the verbal fisticuffs of both boys by muting both of their mics. The look on both of their faces after they had done so was priceless. This is why we need to put a woman in charge!
Unfortunately they also let Vance get away with a 30 second rant without muting him. Tim didn't get the same benefit, even when he saw through that and tried! So CBS has definitely put themselves as a corporate entity in the Trump camp. Either that or all news anchors are just intimidated by dominant males who insist on talking over them; I don't think that is the case, they could have just hit the mute button and said sorry!
Sorry that part about CBS in Trump's camp because they couldn't rein in Vance for 30 seconds is nonsense and you know it. They did a pretty damn good job of keeping the debate on target and they were completely able to cut off Vance when he went outside the lines. 30 seconds? It takes you that long to figure out which control to pull in a TV master control room (I've been there). Sorry, I have to call it as I see it and I do not think CBS network had anything to do with somehow pumping up Vance.
I just wish Walz would have checked his ‘Minnesota Nice’ at the door. He landed a nice shot at the end, but I would have liked to have seen more of him buttonholing Vance on his lies and radical embrace of dictatorship.
The ladies should NOT have agreed to be on stage if they could not fact check, knowing that, like chump, everything spewed from Vance’s mouth will be a LIE!
Agreed!!
Yes, they looked as though they'd got the cake out of the oven and it had risen beautifully.
Chesire Cat smiling here, Anne-Louise!
As Scott Dworkin wrote the other day, " Nothing will change the fact that JD Vance is JD Vance. And on that fact alone, he already lost the debate. Trump and Vance’s countless racist lies about immigrants in Springfield, Ohio, resulted in 33 bomb threats, school closures, and a community in panic. JD then admitted on national television that he’s willing to lie, to get people to focus on what 'he' thinks is important."
But nobody who needs to switch their vote cares about his lies. To many people who read HCR and watch MSNBC think this is all important stuff. It may be to us, but we already knew it. The people who need to hear it and see it aren't reading this Substack or watching the leftist media. That's why I have been so adamant that mainstream media is CRITICAL, and ignoring it and attacking it just let's the misrepresentations continue. We need to support them so that at least some of them will help turn the tide. Because trust me it IS a tide not just a modest swell.
You are so right and the money is swelling the tide to epic proportions
To your point about the people who need to read this Substack are not: I post Heather’s letters in a political group from my hometown (mostly MAGA) as an offering to the lesser extreme folks. One response was “Who is this for? I’m not going to read it, although coming from a professor I’ll assume there is some truth - designed to sway opinion.” I’ll keep sharing anyway!
Sounds like u are condoning the lies!
Once again you totally misunderstand. I don't condone his lies. I just recognize that it is a waste of time for ME to try to convince his supporters that he is lying. That is why MSM is so critical. Sorry if you can't understand that. And really sorry if you don't agree with it. Tearing down the MSM is going to HURT our cause not help it.
What an interesting debate! I thought Walz's closing was perfect and set up the difference between them and their "mutual likeability"! Vance actually appeared "human" which I'm guessing isn't winning any points with DJT!
Now it's time for The Lincoln Project to roll up their sleeves and plant the seed (or seedling?) that Vance is aiming to pull the 25th Amendment asap. He saw what happened to the last guy--so "better to do unto others BEFORE they do unto you" as the warped saying goes!!
Every once in awhile he looked like he wanted to be on the "other team" when pushed to defend Trump's crazier side!! Realistically though-he's the real danger if they win, because he's younger, smarter, and more conniving than Trump--and he's intimately acquainted with Project 2025 and that document I think he firmly believes in :(
I don't think Vance firmly believes in anything, but he is willing to exploit Project 2025 if it suits him.
He knows who forks over the bucks
Walz talking about democracy in his closing arguments was super important. If only people will pay attention to what is actually said.
Good luck with that, sigh. I think we are all being wishful thinkers to believe that anything last night moved any needles either way. Wish it weren't so, but the truth is what it is.
I'm determined to get the word out about Project 2025. With my election action group in Seattle I've put together a collection of concept maps (with page #s!) to help people understand the magnitude of damage MAGA wants to do and be able to bring the receipts in their discussions with other voters. I'd like this to get in front of as many people as possible. Please share the web link with everyone in your network and ask them to share with everyone in their network. Here's my post: https://substack.com/home/post/p-149586096?r=11kr2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web and here's the link directly to the web page: https://fidlnfree.com/rwb.html. Thanks!
I agree. I think JD expects to rise from prince to president, perhas in the first 100 days.
Dr Richardson, your way with words never ceases to delight me. Saying that Vance has a "tenuous relationship with the truth" is an effectively polite way of characterizing his behavior: just as polite as characterizing the Pacific ocean as a bit of a damp spot. Brava.
I love the characterization of "a minor social network" reference by "Belle" of YouTube's "Beau of the Fifth Column." Deflate a bully by mocking and minimizing him. His many words and long rants, and his "middle of the night mean tweets" continue to be clear evidence "it's all about him" and he is easily baited. Putin manipulates 45 like a puppet master controls a marionette. That's NOT a leader, and CERTAINLY NOT anyone who should have access to the nuclear codes.
The problem with this is that his millions of supporters are not THAT stupid and they resent the baiting. That's why the mainstream media is so important. They at lest provide some level of credibility when there are legitimate attacks on Trump's nonsense to be made. I think that did show somewhat last night.
But the raw truth is needed against Mein Kampf big lies. As the James Murphy translation said, “For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire in the art of lying.”
I watched the first presidential debates, between Kennedy and Nixon, in 1960. They seemed infinitely more important than the Walz/Vance ‘debate’ last night.
I saw a slick, Yale Law School ‘hill billy,’ practiced in public debate, and a boots-on-the-ground social studies teacher, National Guardsman for over two decades, former Congressman, and twice-elected Minnesota governor.
I felt that Vance displayed smoothness in how he presented his version of the Trump platform. However, were he Pinocchio, his nose would have been longer than a pole vault by the end of his performance.
His avoidance of specific questions and his flat lies were consonant with the Trump campaign. He refused to acknowledge that Trump was defeated in the 2020 presidential election. His dismissal of January 6th I found incredulous. His version of how President Trump had sought to ‘rescue’ the Affordable Health Care Act and ‘make it better’ I found laughable.
Governor Walz initially seemed nervous as he faced a professional debater. Nailing down Vance on his lies and ‘misstatements’ seemed akin to trying to harpoon a squid. Walz hit his stride after the first 30 minutes.
I found Walz credible on a broad range of topics, include abortion, the Harris vs. Trump economic plan, a ‘bipartisan approach to immigration like what Trump had instructed the Republican House to reject, and conducting a fair election in which the loser acknowledged the winner.
It is possible that viewers who only watched the initial 30 minutes of the ‘debate’ would think that Vance had done better than Walz. However, overall, an attentive listener should conclude that Walz was more accurate and impressive on substance and that Vance, a recent senator, was desperately trying to please his boss, Donald Trump.
I doubt, unlike the Kennedy-Nixon 1960 debates, that this encounter between two vice presidential candidates will have a significant impact on the presidential campaign.
Senator Vance presented a sanitized version of the Trump campaign, including a cacophony of lies and misstatements.
Governor Walz, after a nervous start, supported the key Harris campaign positions, often relating these to what he had accomplished in Minnesota.
I found Governor Walt’s concluding statement his most credible exposition on what Kamala Harris and he stood for.
In sharp contrast, Vance’s final two minutes was a staccato attack on Vice President Harris with not a word on how Trump would provide a viable program to forward the interests of the American people.
Excellent. Thank you, Keith.
Outstanding comment, Keith!
The smooth talking SNAKE OIL SALESMAN tried to take ownership for the ACA continuation by Trump. The fact is ConDon wanted to get rid pf it and Sen McCain was crucial in helping preserve important piece of legislation. Was it perfect … no. Did it improve peoples lives. It was an unmitigated success as demonstrated by the numbers of people who have enrolled. When ACA was enacted, I saw an influx if very sick people who had not been able to afford health insurance.We treated them and for them set up with the care they needed regardless of where or who was providing the insurance. Trump wanted to do away with it then and wants to do away with it now. Trump famously said, as he said often. I have a plan and you are going to love it when you see it… still waiting to see it! So JD Vance did not come off as a crazed lunatic liar. He came off as a silver tongue sophisticated, slimy snake oil salesman that is trying to sell you piss and convince you it is a heaven sent elixir.
Walz brought the heat. Especially in the last minute of this the debate. The snake oil salesman brought the lies .
If these two clowns, Mutt and Jeff, darlings of the MAGA extremes gain the Whitehouse we are in for a world of hurt.
Vote Blue. Vote for Harris Walz ticket.
Very colourful description of Vance, kudos on linguistic creativity. And of course, vote Blue!
Without the ACA, it is certain that the rural and poorer urban parts of this country would be devoid of hospitals, and millions more people would be one disease or broken bone away from financial ruin. Even so, rural hospitals are still closing, many people are still ruined by medical debt, which cannot be discharged by bankruptcy. Scrapping the ACA without a viable alternative (not just the "concept" of one) would severely worsen the state of healthcare in most of this nation.
Especially as Walz pointed out (a bit weaker than I would have desired), compared to all the other economically developed countries in the world (and a few that aren't that well economically developed).
See https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly
Exhibit 4 shows the US in a lonely corner of Lower Healthcare Performance and Higher Healthcare Spending
Vance should explain how their goal seems to be to reduce our spending perhaps 5 or 6%, though that would probably put our Lower health system performance more than 3 times lower than the next worst country below the average of 10 countries.
There are lies then there are 1984 lies, like Vance claiming Trump saved the ACA.
I remember a frustrated Major interviewed by Peter Arnett during Tet 68 replying "It became necessary to destroy the town to save it," though more publicly misremembered as "We had to destroy the village in order to save it," or "We had to destroy Ben Tre in order to save it"
Vance didn't directly say they were trying to destroy the ACA, but he sure did bring up points that would weaken coverage such that it only worked well for the healthiest people (limiting coverage to make it "affordably" worthless to many).
Jim, weaken new « enrollment » rather than « coverage »?
I think both
The fact that Walz is not flashy does not mean that Vance won. He talked over the moderators and complained about being fact checked.
Because fact checking is not that hard at home it is easy to ascertain that he lied his way through two hours.
Walz does not claim to be a debate champion. But he is likable and this debate did not change that.
I don’t think the moderate Republicans who have endorsed Harris will change their minds based on this debate.
I watched the debate through NPR and they definitely fact checked Vance after the debate. I didn't watch the networks but am pretty sure they didn't and just let him get away with his lies.
I watched on CBS afterward and you're right, Matt, they only promised they would fact-check sometime later.
Morning, Lynell. I love it when Juicy Dingleberry Vance told the moderator who said there were lawful Haitian immigrants in Springfield, OH "you're not supposed to fact check!"
Morning, Ally! Juicy Dingleberry? Love it!
Stole it from somebody here yesterday or the day before!!!
Good steal, Ally!
MSNBC did a credible job but again they are the"good guys". The people who needed the info didn't watch NPR or MSNBC. They watched Fox who obviously didn't fact check Vance. You can't do much about that though.
If Rupert isn’t gagged we can give up,
DJT, and JD are a Lying Team... DJT is obviously Insane/Delusional, and JD just lies.... JD is more polished, and Dangerous... In the advent of DJT returning to Power, then the Question becomes how long will DJT remain in Office? Will DJT retire early, to Golf forever, or to "Tan His Beautiful Body", UGH!!!? In which case JD will take over.... JD is more Dangerous, and Younger than DJT...
I think "team" is a rough concept for them, but the pairing is horrifying.
Obviously,Pete Rose was a more important figure than JD Vance. So there you are. (Rose was a guy who cheated for his personal benefit and never seemed to get that that was wrong.)
Careful. I hate Rose but I do not think he ever cheated. He played really ugly sometimes but cheating? No. What he did was gamble on baseball games which is against baseball rules. I don't think anyone would call that cheating unless you believed he actually fixed games (that WOULD be cheating of the highest order). Sorry I tend to be a stickler for words. Accurate words. Rose was a shitty human being and got what he deserved but I would be highly doubtful that he ever actually cheated.
We’ll have to agree to disagree. I see youpount, but I think breaking the off-field rules, intentionally and repeatedly, was cheating.
I was anticipating Trump being threatened by Vance displaying a stronger, more manipulative alpha male image than he does & there we had it, lol. They eat their own.
Don't you ever sleep?
Thank you, Professor, for talking some of us down off the ledge. The start of the debate was cringey, but Walz found his footing. And ultimately, Margaret Brennan hung Vance by his own petard, when it was least expected.
That was almost as good as, "They're eating the pets!"
That was delightful - foisting jdv.
- Pulled Quote -
''It was significant that Vance tried to avoid saying either that Trump won in 2020—a litmus test for MAGA Republicans—or that he lost, a reflection of reality. While this debate probably didn’t move a lot of voters for the 2024 election, what it did do was make Vance look like a far more viable candidate than his running mate. Waffling on the Big Lie seemed designed to preserve his candidacy for future elections.''
Democracy wins in November.
Vote!
Absolutely incredible that we have a convicted felon and degenerate predator, insanely desperate to avoid prison, with his sleazy, scheming sidekick, cravenly ambitious to take over the Presidency, flooding the news with insane lies - and that there could possibly be a chance that they would win. RFK is not the only one to have been infected with a brain worm. A significant minority of the American population seems to have been, too.
Sadly, your fears are well grounded, given the inbuilt inanities of Senate representation, gerrymandering and vote suppression tactics by Republicans, call them what you want. "infected" is perhaps just the right word.
JD Vance was definitely smooth, even slick. Did you notice his ability to look at Walz, and then directly into the camera as Walz was speaking, with a smirk on his face?
Walz has a lifetime of experience to draw upon. All of it good! Vance just changes his mind, with no principles, for his own benefit.
Trump is dangerous. Vance is young and just as dangerous. I would hate to see Trump and his MAGA supporters win and then move even more to "fix" elections, with the aid of the Supreme Court! Then we will get 4 years of Trump followed by the equally unprincipled Vance. If Vance is just willing to change on the fly and seem reasonable, he is just after power.
I admire your optimism. You think that the America that we know would survive even a smidge of a chump/Vance go around…
I feel pretty certain "the America we know" canNOT survive a chump/vance go around. I'm wondering how we, the rational non-magats can band together to protect and inform the younger generations who are left with Project 2025's fascist legacy. Any ideas and suggestions are welcome, thanks.
No magic wand. Just doing what everybody else is because I don’t have Elon’s money. Postcards, what money I can give, voting. Also, wear my tee that says “make racism wrong again.” If that offends the MAGAts, well, that’s on them. For an old lady, that’s all I can do.
Wonderful!! I'm also a viejita. But my neighborhood is such that even my "Samuel Alito's Mom's Satanic Abortion Clinic" t-shirt doesn't raise eyebrows. You take care, now and thanks for the response!
Glad you are living in sane land. Love that shirt message.
I worked in abortion for PP Houston for 17 years. What's happening in TX is appalling.