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Joyce Vance said tonight that in light of the news today, she's gone from "if" the fat old traitor is indicted to "when" he's indicted. And the only thing better than that will be "when" he's stuffed into the 8x10 windowless cell on the third sub-basement level of the Florence SuperMax.

I just want him gone: a fatal hamberder, a smack on the noggin from a golf ball, or death from old age, ignored and forgotten in his 8X10 cell. Make America Truly Great Again with the fat old traitor six feet under.

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Jun 1, 2023·edited Jun 1, 2023

You learn about equality in history and civics, but you find out life is not really like that.

____Arthur Ashe

We are coming down from our pedestal and up from the laundry room.

____Bella Abzug

Negroes must be free in order to be equal, and they must be equal in order to be free. Men cannot win freedom unless they win equality. They cannot win equality unless they win freedom.

_____A. Philip Randolph

Remember, remember always, that the vast majority of us, and you and I especially, are descended from immigrants.

_____Franklin D. Roosevelt

I have never denied my background or my culture. I have taught my child to embrace her Mexican heritage, to love my first language, Spanish, to learn about Mexican history, music, folk art, food, and even the Mexican candy I grew up with.

___Salma Hayek

My dad's from that generation like a lot of immigrants where he feels like if you come to this country, you pay this thing like the American dream tax: like you're going to endure some racism, and if it doesn't cost you your life, well hey, you lucked out. Pay it; there you go, Uncle Sam. I was born here, so I actually had the audacity of equality.

____Hasan Minhaj

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Jun 1, 2023·edited Jun 1, 2023

Thank you Fern. I would like to add to your quotes with one of my father's, a beautifully quixotic Greek immigrant who arrived in this country, alone at the age of 15 in 1909, who also had to endure:

"Work with your nose to the grindstone but never lose your sense of humor." John Demas

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Thank you, Sophia Demas. Your father's quote is true, funny, physical and eloquent. Please add his name to his words. You can do that with the edit function, Press on the three dots to the right in order to open the editing function. Cheers!

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Thank you for your urging Fern...I just did.

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Thank you Fern McBride. Every one of your quotes is a reminder that this country is not made up of only white wealthy Christian men. The pull from the right of denying rights for all but this one group is not hidden.

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My ex-classmate in Elkhart has been ranting about immigrants lately. I answered her in a long post and reminded her that unless she is a member of a Native American nation, she is living on stolen land and her ancestors were immigrants. She thinks we should just close the border and I cited the 1924 immigration law which cut the numbers severely from certain areas, a law supported by the KKK who were interesting in having a country consisting only of WASPs and told her that her idea sounded much the same. She is a devout "Christian", so I am trying to figure out why she doesn't understand that immigrants from south of us do not make that long, treacherous, expensive journey just for the hell of it. For her ignorance is bliss. One of her best friends was an Italian guy, so she doesn't understand that at one point Italians were not welcome either...Catholics.

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Intellectual curiosity, logic and consistency is no part of their wheelhouse. Unfortunately.

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No, she has none of that. I don't see many political posts from her fortunately. Just pics of her cute new puppy.

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I agree with you. I have observed that people with a conservative political bent (regressives who want to regress society back to some mythological "good old days"), all have a peculiar personality train in common: they are all immune to internal philosophical inconsistencies. They see no problems with hypocricy.

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If she's a Christian, doesn't she understand Jesus was an immigrant/migrant?

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Jun 1, 2023·edited Jun 1, 2023

I doubt she understands that Jesus was a Jew who looked and thought like people of that area. Being an Indiana R doesn't help with true understanding of the message of the first three Gospel

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How does your Indiana friend feel about the assault rifles sale in that state? As many of them could wind up in Illinois (specifically Chicago), I am horrified.

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Given the rants by trump, greene, desantis, et al, I’m against anything supported by those wanting a country of only WASPS. trumps ignorance of the republican party’s history and the immigration policies they supported is disturbing in itself…

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They have no idea of any history although you would think Stumpy Boots DeSatan would since he had an Ivy League education. They just like to stir the pot and one way to do that is white supremacy.

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Just remember that Ivy League universities have been seriously diluted by Koch brothers endowments, et al, assuring that the "right" subjects be taught. There are a lot of melon-headed conservatives being rubber stamped by schools of law, religion, political science, etc. We should have a line up poster of them so we can see the flock of ignoramuses they are.

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Jun 2, 2023·edited Jun 2, 2023

Here's the thing; WASPs, of which I am one, are a boring lot. Not particularly ambitious, bright, or wealthy— prone to watching mindless TV and drinking beer, making allusions to sexual prowess without performance, etc, etc. No wonder they (we) are worried. We're about to self-destruct. I am going to see if the possibility of any Native American ancestry, as suggested by my DNA, is true. Then I intend to deny I am a WASP.

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Hi Hope, I’m relatively new here… What is a WASP?

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Italians and Irish were not even considered white until their numbers reached a level that they were useful. Being white is a wholly arbitrary group and has nothing to do with the color of your skin. It depends on your usefulness to those who have the power to exploit you for their ends and how much trouble the Census Bureau wants to go to when they count population to establish the apportionment of the House. The Anglo-Saxons became a touchstone because of American eugenics and the Anglo-Saxons weren't protestant until they were converted in England. BTW, they weren't Anglo-Saxons really, they were Anglos and Saxons and they originated in the regions of Scandinavia and Germany. We are all wanderers.

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I think in the 1920s it was because they were Catholic that made the difference. I am going with the definitions that the KKK had at the time. I read a lot about ancient DNA and as far as I am concerned there is no category that is lily white. I am also an Anglophile and am well acquainted with English history, some eras more than others. I just joined a page that focuses on Anglo-Saxon England and looked at map this week showing movement at that time and who was already in the British Isles. My favorite part of British history is the Tudor era which caused the split from the Catholic Church, not embraced by everyone in Henry VIII's England. By the 1920s in this country and quite specific to the book A Fever in the Heartland, mostly Indiana, which I was citing in my post to my ex-classmate, they were adherents of white supremacy which they defined as WASPs.

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Why not deny them? Make them be the enemy of this nation? After all they are

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Shunning is the practice of preventing someone from taking part in society at the social level. It doesn't work in this case. Declaring someone as an enemy of a nation must be done by law and is considered discrimination in America. In a diverse country that depends on the rule of law to maintain an ordered society, we must endure those whose behavior is beyond the bounds of excepted behavior as long as that behavior does not violate the law. The 1st Amendment goes a long way to prevent legal recourse. We need a new amendment to the constitution that describes the harm you and the rest of us are experiencing which in a balanced and nuanced way prevents the abuse of political, religious, or any other group to abuse any other group of people even those who are not currently citizens of America protecting all of our cultural, religious, and social beliefs. For instance, calling someone or a group lazy because they can not rise out of poverty and influencing a group of people to believe and act on this unsubstantiated claim. Perhaps we could add it to the law using a defamation approach. A new aspect of the class action case could be created to allow say Italians, Chinese, Irish, Indigenous People, or any other ancestral group to claim defamation and recoup changes in legal interpretation or creation of actual law to protect them from future baseless claims. Or for instance, old laws that allow men or women to abuse their immediate family either physically or mentally because some religious belief they hold supports it. Statements in religious texts that imply this abuse is a right and just should be countered with a law that cannot be abridged by the Constitution's protections of religious freedom. That would bring legal penalties and protection for those harmed. Too many abused family members die every year because of the privacy of the family system alone. A commonly heard reason to avoid action is, "You just don't know what is going on inside the home. People lie." Make the whole family come in and in some non-judicial protected way find out what's going on inside that home. Often the extended family knows and backs off for reasons of their own. We need to examine our behaviors and why we allow people to lie when influencing others by distorting the truth or by creating a truth based on their personal beliefs. The common subordination and discrimination based on religious doctrine alone must be recognized and countered in a nuanced way in law. For instance, you can't declare a demonstrable truth from science, such as the world is round because you believe it's not true. You must prove your side. Vaccines do harm a small group of people. That is demonstrable. For instance, my sister was allergic to eggs, eggs products were a common medium for vaccines. She could not take those vaccines. There must be a way to provide protections for that small group, without villainizing vaccines to the majority. Unnecessary dramatization of potential harm prevents those unaffected by that potential harm from participating in a vaccine that may save their life or someone they come in contact with. This brings me to the irresponsible actions of influencers. Whether it is social media or people masquerading as journalists blasting out unsubstantiated information without proper disclaimers or expressing opinions without proper foundation as catastrophic or somewhere in that neighborhood, or interviewees expressing their opinion on the actions of others without separating the known facts from expressions of "I just don't like what they did". Or, interviewing multiple people repeating the same unsubstantiated claims of wrongdoing without proper a disclaimer of what is "I just don't like this". Why don't they like it? Is their reason reasonable? I've got to stop. I see all this and we continue to allow it. Where is the legal action against Fox for the damage they did by intentionally lying to the American people and continue to do? They are unregulated influencers and something must be done in law to prevent the bastion of "free speech" from protecting this egregious behavior.

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Freedom can be measured by the choices availabel to us. More choices equals more freedom. Fewer choices equals less freedom. The availability of choices operationally defines freedom.

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That's a pretty limited idea of freedom in my mind. It sounds too much like consumerism. As FDR described it, we must be free from want and fear as well as free to speak and worship as we choose. As far as I can see, the Republicans are working to shut freedom down on all these fronts.

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John is essentially correct. Freedom does equate to more choice in any aspect of life; like the freedom to speak your mind without penalty, practice any or no religion, choose any area of study/career, have a child or not to name only a few. As a young woman in the 1970’s we could not get a credit card in our own name. That is an option/choice we did not have then but do now. However, freedom from want and fear is primarily an inside job but we still have mental health services as an option to help with that. I DO agree that the GOP is working to shut down freedoms from certain groups; women, POC, LGBT and transgendered citizens, and immigrants which by the way, curtails options for them. I could get an abortion in HS and now as a 66 year-old I can not after 6 weeks in many states (silly example I know but you get my drift). To watch women’s options deteriorate in my life time is nothing short of alarming. We must stay diligent and stand up to the rise of fascism in this country. It CAN happen.

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How do you measure freedom from want and fear?

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Well, you might begin by measuring the negatives—the number of people in this rich nation who cannot reliably afford to feed their families and the number of people who tune in to Fox and other sources of propaganda that promote conspiracies.

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Well Being Surveys like other countries do.

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It is somewhat limited in the sense that it is simple. B. F. Skinner noted this in his book Beyond Freedon and Dignity. His main point was that freedom not simply about choosing our own behaviors but the consequences (i.e., the results) that those behaviors produce. That actually adds depth to the significance of the terms 'choice' and 'freedom.'

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Yes, and it would seem to separate democrats (with a little d) from libertarians. It's been a long time since I read Skinner, but it rings true.

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Yes, and what should not be forgotten: with freedom comes responsibility. Otherwise, it ends up as a violent anarchy - although that might be just what TFG and the Freedumb Caucus want…

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Absolutely! Personal responsibly is a higher order response.

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Those of us who never experienced being an immigrant (NOT because we arent) have no conception of what it takes to leave your own country, home & family to create a new home in an entirely new and strange place. The thoughts of those you posted, Fern just say it all. Boy does this country NEED our children - for that matter, adults - to be educated - really educated in this country's history & the history of its people - ALL of its people.

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We need an education system more like Finland's. Ours is a sorry mess, and dependent on property taxes. Education should be financed by the Federal Gov't, with good pay for teachers everywhere.

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Hmmmm . . . So true that funding education via property taxes is without any redeeming qualities, but having our education system financed by the Federal Government scares me . . . Imagine T asserting his power over education.

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It sounds to me like the future is the Democrats' to lose. Without Federal financing, every low income area in the country is going to have lousy schools and probably lousy teachers. And if the schools are better, the voters they produce will be better.

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Jun 1, 2023·edited Jun 2, 2023

Dave Holzman: Yes, exactly. Too bad the Dems are so effective at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

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Just picked up "The Nordic Theory of Everything" from the library - have to finish the Alex Delaware novel I'm reading first. But that sure sounds interesting.

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I've bought at least a dozen copies of that book and have handed them out to anyone willing to read it.

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Sounds like I should read it. Thanks!

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Someone here or on Civil Discourse recommended it.

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Says the blue blood FDR! Are his fireside chats recorded in the National Archives? Are they available to the public?

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Louis, there may be several sources. Here is one of them:

'FRANKLIN is a virtual research room and digital repository that provides free and open access to the digitized collections of the Roosevelt Library. It hosts over 800,000 pages of archival documents and 2,500 historical photographs, along with many detailed descriptions of archival collections not yet digitized.'

'The Franklin D. Roosevelt Library maintains over 17 million pages of documents in its archives. Among these materials are the personal papers of Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt, as well as those of various individuals and organizations associated with the Roosevelts.'

'Audio and motion picture holdings of the archives include recordings of or about Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt, the New Deal, and World War II. These include the famous Fireside Chats, government productions, commercial radio broadcasts, home movie footage, and commercial film and television productions.'

https://www.fdrlibrary.org/archives

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I never fail to be amazed at your ability to provide the right resources at the right time -- as well as a link to a timely Borowitz satire. Thanks, Fern!

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The FDR Library and home in Hyde Park, NY is definitely worth visiting in person.

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Fern, I am growing more from appreciating and respecting your postings to simply loving your place and person in this Community of Strangers. Thanks, kiddo. Such a resource.

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Fred, Thank you for calling me 'kiddo'. A dear friend and great teacher calls her beloved students 'kiddos'! Right back to you friend and 'kiddo'!

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Check out FDR’s 1944 State of the Union. Politics is competing visions of the future. And we never got to what FDR envisioned from that 1944 speech. Solving issues of inequality will get us closer.

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Thank you Fern.

My ancestors arrived in Plymouth.

What I like to say is, “No one invited them here!”

As you well know, the only true natives in the USA are the American Indians; locally here, The Wampanaug. The rest of us including the empty blowhard orange menace are all immigrants.

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Same. I repeat that to people who argue about current immigrants 'diluting' our country. We are most of us immigrants and should be thankful

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Empty cranium surely, but otherwise quite full.

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Thanks, Fern, for yet another perfect post!

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Those of us who follow the news know that trump is more than guilty of numerous crimes and should have been in prison long ago The problem is he is only symbolic of the cancer that is in the process of metastasizing. That cancer is fascism and too large a portion of this country are all for it. They feel threatened by women, immigrants, and sexual minorities and need to suppress them, taking away their rights. VOTE!!!!

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Take heart Harvey. I will reiterate the fervent prayer I made the morning I found out that trump was president--that the GOP self-implodes. Look at what's happening...my prayer can't be answered in better ways....

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I had the same feeling that given time trump would destroy the GOP. I also felt the same way about the Evangelical Church. I thought it would take time for both. The Evangelical non-Christian Church as we know it today is dying a slow death because young people are leaving it in large numbers.

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Years ago a co-worker deemed those bigots "the Christian Wrong". :D

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I totally agree with you Sophia. We simply need to encourage everyone to VOTE! Especially women and the eligible young!

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Wish it were that simple. As we have seen, not all democrats are progressive. Not all women are progressive. In fact, if more women were progressive, we might not be in our current mess. We need to cultivate, and support progressive democratic candidates before, during, and after their elections. Democracy doesn't just happen at election time.

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Indeed, it has always been around. Death star just gave it carte blanche to crawl out of the woodwork and be quite open. I read last night a facebook post from an ex-student which broke my heart. She is a married lesbian living in Las Vegas and just got married this last December. She described what it is like being queer in this country at this time and all the stress that puts on her. She is fortunately a strong woman in a loving relationship with lots of friends who responded with support and love. I have an ex-colleague who is a wonderful person and is beloved by lots of kids, but.... Every now and then we talk about this student and she mentions that she is pretty and implies that for that reason, it's too bad she is a lesbian. This truly bothers me. I do think at one point I did say looks do not matter.

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I know a couple of young men living in Florida now who are gay friends of my lesbian daughter, and they have been doing drag for many years, and this is just a horror show for them.

I worry for my daughter and all of her friends. I want all these bigoted monsters to be afraid to show their hatefulness again!

Here's a slogan: Make Bigots Hide Under Rocks Again!!

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I have a few other ex-students who are lesbian or gay and I do worry about them. One of them moved to Paris (a former French teacher) as soon as he retired and he has having a great time with many trips, friends, visitors. We watch a lot of series, mostly filmed abroad and we notice a lot of all kinds of relationships and also, thankfully, actors who have disabilities and are still cast as part of the series.

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If they're just hiding under rocks again, they'll just fester and ooze out again.

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if they just ooze out, they're not going to get very far. Turtles, and even some snails have been known to pass bigots that ooze out.

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Jun 2, 2023·edited Jun 2, 2023

Ah yes, David Holzman, Aesop's famous cautionary, albeit linear tales of "The Tortoise and the Ooze," and "The Snail and the Bigot." So true, but in my exponential fable, the perniciously percolating ooze would spread and deepen implacably over and under everything in its broadening path . . . it's hot toxic fumes killing any life form that hadn't already been trapped and suffocated by the oily syrup of ignorance--a forlorn hand fleetingly poking up through the surface in a macabre gesture of desperation . . . banjo playing in the background along with what sounds like a human--squealing like a pig.

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I hate bigots.

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Harvey, you out it in a nutshell that needs cracking open and dispensed with

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About the threat posed by women—I have read an analysis thar suggests that not only do women compete with men for good jobs, but that they can support themselves means they do not need to marry for economic reasons. They do not have to settle for poor-quality husband material. (Not fair, say the “incels.”)

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As it should be. That kind of thinking was common when I was young. I'm lucky to have grown up in a family of self-actualized women who demonstrated how life really can be, and fortunate to see enough changes that I and my daughter's could choose. Why should we have to marry just to have a place to live and food to eat? Sounds to me that the "analyst" who wrote that is afraid that that is the only way he can snare a mate, because having a choice would mean they wouldn't choose him. I sure wouldn't. That kind of marriage is slavery for women.

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Your last sentence--right on. My mother's side especially, the women were accomplished. My maternal grandmother got a PhD--in 1915. My mother--a wonderful woman. And was happily married.

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TCinLA, agreed, I don't care how - I just want him GONE. I dream of spontaneous combustion.

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You know, I have come to believe that how he gets removed from his pinnacle is very important. He and his followers would love to claim martyrdom, and secure the religion of trump. We don’t need that. We need his own to take him down, to be disillusioned by him, to see the small, cruel man behind the curtain.

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I agree on the method. I used to work with a person who so hated him but didn't want him shot for fear he'd be martyred. Her hope was upon exiting Air Force One, when he went for Melania's hand, she'd give him a good swat so he'd trip at the top of the staircase, tumble down head over heels, snapping his neck and thudding dead on the tarmac. Sweet!!

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But so many of his own kind are the same as Trump. But they will eat their own when they are finally backed into a corner. And trump is now the one in the corner!

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Yes. Exactly. He must be taken down by Republicans, otherwise there will be dire consequences--the Reichstag Fire effect.

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That works too.

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MLRGRMI - I wish I could believe in a takedown by his own. I've interacted with too many of his supporters to think that will ever happen. They're never going to take responsibility for the disaster they've wrought. But I hope Chris Christie can at least pull votes from some of the skeptical.

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Alexandra, that's an image that would make me smile in my sleep.

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You'd think that anyone with that much rage....

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that much rage, grievance and hate makes him a walking stroke or heart attack in waiting

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Sounds like Clarence Thomas too

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You would think! Still waiting....

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That's what I'd prefer to see happen. And that the slow awakening taking place continues, so that Trump just becomes an example for future generations of what can go wrong when we don't nurture democracy.

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It made me smile, but I'm awake.

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Jun 1, 2023·edited Jun 1, 2023

May your dream not come true: such an conflagration would only lead to more global warming.

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I suggest we throw water on him; he seems frightened of getting wet. That would explain his constant reference to a "witch hunt".

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But then you've gotta watch out for his flying monkeys.

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But with the witch destroyed, their spell is broken and everyone lives happily ever after. THE END!

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"I'm melllltttttiiiinnngggg!"

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I'm gonna have to start dreaming of spontaneous combustion! ;')

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I've been hoping for a Rumpelstiltskin type ending. You know, something where he gets so angry about something that he starts hopping up and down and eventually tears himself in half.

But then I think, nah, he doesn't have the energy to do that.

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I can't imagine he could achieve multiple hops.

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That’s a good one.

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covid had ONE JOB, and it failed. the turd survived.

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https://youtu.be/pESAyJr66QE

Go to 2:45 mark of video link.

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He’s still alive! ❤️ 😂

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Trump is a traitor. I have all those same emotions of anger and disgust. He has been dodging justice for much too long. But justice is coming and we will look back on this time as a turning point. When the evil was being squeezed out of the national pimple.

Despite my agnostic views on spirituality, I do believe in karma. I don't think it is healthy to wish torture or death on anyone. Even the dark evil thing under an orange cloud.

I want to enjoy seeing him in a court room as the judge announces his sentence(s).

Lets take the high road. The traffic flows better there. Too much hate is a gift to the enemy.

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Thank you, Bill, for your words of wisdom. Being hateful and spewing angry vitriol will reap their own dismal reward. But I am hopeful that whenever and however Donald Trump exits life on this planet, Congress denies him the privilege of lying in state in the US Capitol and that his miserable carcass, sealed in multiple trash bags, is interred without ceremony somewhere at his Deadminster golf course.

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He deserves justice, and we deserve to see him get it. But however justice comes -- guilty or not guilty, prison, house arrest or freedom -- every day since January 6 2021 shows that his grip on his red-hatted cult hasn't gone away. To those folks, he will be considered a martyr and a hero, no matter the outcome.

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I've seen a few of his followers pulling quietly back. Someone was just telling me about a rabid Trump supporter who lived by her and just recently took down his Gadsden and Trump flags.

Fingers crossed!

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I don't give them that much credit. They might be pulling back because they're getting nervous about becoming targets.

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Jun 1, 2023·edited Jun 1, 2023

Doug Gagne: Yes. Exactly. Justice only works when it's available to all.

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I've been predicting for a year he'll run...he'll flee the country. Trump's a bully and a coward. Just watch. Don't be surprised if he starts building a golf course in Turkey.

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Turkey gets over 3 million European tourists every year. I cannot imagine Europeans being too excited over a Trump golf course in Turkey. It would be a failure.

More realistically, Trump cannot "flee" while under indictment because his is the most famous face on earth, and Turkey is a member of NATO and would not harbor an American fugitive from justice. And Jack Smith would certainly ask the court to confiscate Trump's passports. Realistically, there is no place for him to go, and he's hardly the type to live in exile.

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I really do think he will flee and it will be to the UAE United Arab Emirates. They have no extradition agreement with the US. The passport is no big deal, he will take a smaller jet (and send his 757 elsewhere as a decoy) and will have help from a set of corrupt Secret Service agents. A lot of folks have said Russia but it is too cold there and trump doesn't like snow.

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If he's clever enough for the decoy gambit...UAE is highly likely...as the leadership is never going to change. Getting him out of country solves a lot of things. He claims victory because it was a political witch hunt...he can rant and rave...and we are free of him.

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Wonder how many of his followers would follow him. They could contribute their families' processed food money to buy their own small country . . .

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There's a possibility. Just buy an island...create a little kingdom...they can all live happily ever after...is Epstein's place available...??? He can play golf and rant

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Jun 1, 2023·edited Jun 1, 2023

He'll never do it. His plane will have to submit its flight plans to every country he touches down to for refueling, for safety reasons because they cannot clear his plane for takeoff without a flight plan. Interpol or any national security establishment will detain him. You two have been watching too many movies. Name me one convicted felon in America in modern times who was able to get on a plane and make it to a safe place. Besides, the UAE is made up of 70% international foreigners, he'd be spotted in a New York minute.

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Do you honestly see a man like Trump serving time in a prison? I don't...he breaks laws all the time. Why should he care about the ones you listed above? I can't name you one convicted felon off of the top of my head, but I bet there are hundreds. I personally know of one who was going to go to court...not convicted yet who faked his death and vanished. No one in law enforcement or insurance believes he died. If Trump is in one of the 86 countries with no extradition to the US who cares if he's recognized. He will claim, persecuted by witch hunt...he loves the leaders in a lot of those countries....not the African ones.

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As I believe that it's looking far more certain that T***p WILL be indicted, perhaps 3 times in total, a judge could very easily slap a "flight risk" order on him, which would mean he would lose his passport and not be able to flee. He could try it anyway, but he would thereby ensure he'd be in permanent exile -- not an unappealing prospect, actually.

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MaryCat I was being sarcastic about the golf course in Turkey. Trump does not need a passport to flee the country...he owns a jet that can cross the ocean...or yes as Dave says below use a smaller plane. Trump will never go to prison. I'll bet money on that. We can start a pool about where he lands/stays.

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Hopefully he'll build the golf course on a fault line . . .

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LOL, he's always on a "fault" line....can't help himself...

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He creates the fault line!

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I doubt he'll run. He's an old man, older physically and mentally than Biden. His body is breaking down, and likely sooner than later will enter a point that it become more obvious. He is used to being the center of attention. I don't think he wants to leave; here he has his coterie, what's left of his family, and he clings to a fantasy that somehow he can retain power. As unlikely as it might seem, I suspect that much of his display is to retain his self-image as a strong man. Without it I think he might collapse emotionally, and he certainly is not going to be allowed any semblence of that image in some other strong man's hold, and will be without any power. His self-image is already crumbling, as is his physical health. What happens when it reaches the point that they both collapse?

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I don't disagree with much of that...but if his choice is prison or leave the country I believe he leaves...I just can't imagine him choosing prison, over freedom.

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Oh, I agree with that. But by the time he gets to that point, his choices may be limited- because for some reason he thinks he is always going to win, despite the fact that so far, he has only lost.

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Batista fled moments before Castro's forces would have arrested him. They were celebrating New Years Eve in high fashion. He found sanctuary and lived out his life in comfort.

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I would be delighted if trmp fled, and lived anywhere but here.

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I share your desire for Trump's absence and utter separation from any possible opportunity to gain power. Sadly, his disease has metastasized and we will be fighting the infected, probably for decades.

If anything positive can be said about all this, it is that many of us (certainly me!) have had our awareness of both the importance and the preciousness of our democracy, despite its flaws.

Every generation must work to keep it alive, and strive to perfect it.

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That's VERY true. During Obama's terms I got a little Kum-ba-ya. I thought we were better off than we really were. Trump picked at Obama from the beginning...DJT's racism is so deep...and he resonated with folks, many of whom apparently liked his TV persona. "You're fired"...to powerless people that must have felt good. To people who aren't happy with their lives. The ones who liked to listen to Rush rant at "others". Immigrants, gays, strong liberal women...Hilary was a lightning rod...I only listened to him a little bit...sometimes there was an ounce of truth...but the logic was very flawed and the rant was essential. The GOP is a train wreck of it's own making. I don't recognize the elected reps from the folks I worked with in the 80's like Connie Morella, Helen Bentley, Mac Mathias. They were compassionate conservatives, who knew how to compromise. Mitt Romney is about as close as it gets today. Larry Hogan.The folks doing the Lincoln Project. You can talk with them, debate them honestly. What has surfaced as the far right scares me, the ones who believe in Trump as their answer...but we had it right before WWII...a Nazi convention that filled Madison Square Garden....and before that a very powerful and widespread KKK. Freedom isn't free and the biggest battle is here at home. Peace

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I am totally with you and I think a lot of us are.I am really thinking that the only way we will ever really be free from him is when he kicks the bucket.I used to pray that we would be rid of him. Now I pray he dies.

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I simply want him to reap the cumulative effects of his atrocious lifestyle...NOW!

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Being free of him will not free us from his followers.

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I want ALL of them gone.

I’ll temper my wish with kinder imaginary actions though. They should all be rounded up and re-homed to a new, excellent, & sizeable land, empty of people to take it away from &/or use as slaves. We’ll magic over their homes, farms, animals, religions, businesses, guns & ammunition, musical instruments & sheet music, How To/DIY books & their religious dogma books - we’ll make sure their needs are met and then will lock them there and throw away the key.

I can’t think of anything worse than making them live with themselves - the White Nationalists, Christian Extremists, Libertarians, Misogynists, ‘their’ members of the medical industry (anti-vaxxers, of course), their ‘justice’ system members, ‘their’ police, & military (without the weapons of mass destruction or the means of creating them), the Greedy-Deregulationists who don’t want any pesky rules or laws - such as building, labor, consumer laws - getting in the way of their profits, and their insanely Wealthy people for whom being a citizen of a country has no meaning since they own homes & politicians in multiple countries while barely contributing to any of them.

No immigrants to share of their talents, foods, customs, or widening the pool of DNA.

No libraries.

No education for regular people other than counting, basic reading, and how to spell their names. Education is back to being only for religious leaders and the wealthy.

No social services.

Who will they demonize, abuse, and blame? Themselves!

Who will protect and fight for the underdog? No one!

So long suckers! Good riddance!

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Lisa, Ah, the Reformation of Ayn Rand as she sees the culmination of her Objectivism Culture hidden in the Colorado Mountains. Let them eat cake, er each other. The Ghosts of Danner

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You can add the Sierras and the Donners too.

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Yeah, them Donnors too

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Hmm...I am reminded of an old, old original Star Trek episode whereby, as the story went...about a few hundred years prior on Earth, a group of genetically altered people got a rush of power to their head and attempted a takeover of this planet--they were eventually rounded up and exiled by placing them in "coldsleep suspension" shooting them off into space on a ship that was called Botany Bay, (* the reference there is obvious) presumably to die.

But no...the wannabe master race ended up on the Enterprise, got thawed out and proceeded to take up where they left off. Then they got rounded up again and put on a desolate planet.

Where they DIDN'T stay...if anyone remembers the Star Trek movie that was a sequel to that old episode called "The Wrath of Khan".

The message being it isn't enough to merely isolate and ignore these kooks.

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If they can't find anyone to demonize, they'll create a "Lottery," as foreshadowed in 1948 by Shirley Jackson.

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TCinLA, I keep belting out Elvis Costello's lyrics from his song to Maggie Thatcher, Tramp the Dirt Down--"Because there's one thing I know, I'd like to live long enough to savor. That's when they finally put you in the ground, I'll stand on your grave and tramp the dirt down."

It's good musical therapy for me. (Here's a fantastic 1989 interview and performance if anyone cares to sing along. https://youtu.be/Oktv--kPwqg )

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"And the only thing better than that will be "when" he's stuffed into the 8x10 windowless cell on the third sub-basement level of the Florence SuperMax"

TC, I highly recommend not holding your breath in anticipation of the above outcome. If you do that, I can absolutely guarantee that you will precede Trump into a little box. But, with no windows.

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"Little" box?

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Yep, shoe box. Give him an enema, he will fit in shoe box.

I still think he will flee. His mantra, "Do the crime, never spend the time."

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Anne-louise, maybe the urn is a bit pricey, but a cardboard box should be free of charge.

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The value of the cardboard box depends on its contents.

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Could be used for cat litter, possibly?

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Not for my cat!

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coffin

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My prediction is that he will never actually go to jail, they may take his passport but he will not go to a physical jail.

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I completely agree.

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I don't consider myself politically prescient, as my predictions typically fail to materialize. However, I fear I may be right about something I first came up with during the Mueller investigation, well before revelations of his taking of classified docs. Knowing his transactional/criminal nature, I said that he'd retain highly sensitive docs as a bargaining chip to keep him out of jail. Call it his Trump card. I still fear I may be right, and that these were among those he brought to Bedminster, for which no search warrant was sought.

That's a troubling thought.

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Jun 1, 2023·edited Jun 2, 2023

Doug Gagne: My theory--and as always please don't present no steenkin' facts to refute it--is that T, along with several other highly placed, well-known cronies from both parties, as well as international government, monarchy, military, industrial, financial cabals, had permanent guest passes on Jeffery Epstein's pleasure-craft and island. And they know that T has the pix to prove it. And just like Jeffery, might be in more danger from them than from political enemies in the US!

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Your hyperbole is understandable, but it also can serve to lessen the support of those who want him gone as badly as you do. We still are a nation of laws. Remember that there are many millions of Americans out there who never gave a hoot about him personally in the first place, but used his malignant popularity to attempt to diminish democracy in the United States. Today, they remain in charge in the House of Representatives and in many State governorships and legislatures. The problem is greater than whatever fate the forty-fifth president meets.

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TC could you also wish really really hard for something to "happen" to Putin? I'm having a Peter Pan Panto moment here: the point in the panto when "Peter" urges the audience to save Tinkerbell by chanting "I DO believe in fairies! I Do, I DO, I DO believe in fairies!"

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Does Putin ever open a window? 😈

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Oh Beth, I fantasize a LOT about defenestrating people . . . 🤣

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I waiting to see how Sean Hannity and the MAGA Proud demonstrate the level of their patriotism in TFG’s defense

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We need to take a page out of the Pelosis playbook. We need to give Trump all the support we can - right ? : )

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As in, pray for him?

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Does TFG insist that both parents be US citizens for the baby to be a US citizen? If so, Baron, Ivanka, Don or Eric would not be US citizens. Karma.

As for TFG discussing at least one classified document with non-authorized people, what penalty should he face for that?

Just asking…..(attempting Carlson questioning face)

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Mary, As to the penalty for the classified document....I think it is death, if he is tried and convicted of, wait for it.....TREASON!

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He should face a penalty of 20 years in the Florence SuperMax in solitary confinement.

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Two more Oath Keepers sentenced for seditious conspiracy. So far each getting 10 to 18 years. If we are to remain a nation of laws, I don’t see how Roger Stone and TFG don’t get at least 20 as ring leaders of J6.

https://apple.news/AygKC2Zi0TFSeyZ65Y73Z4w

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Roger Stone has been quite quiet!

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Roger Stone needs to be in whatever max prison, key lost or dropped in the Pacific “trench.”

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Yes. That would be much better than a quick death...a very slow miserable one. Perfect!

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TC, Just twenty years???

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That's the actual max for the crime of Espionage. At his age, it's a death sentence, so I'm good with it.

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It just... feels like it should be longer?

I've known people who served a longer sentence for marrying the wrong person.

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Will, you just gave me night sweats deja vu

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That's a gut punch to read.

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8x10, no window. Maybe an hour a day in the yard. Certain to accelerate Alzheimer’s.

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Republicans insist that the law says whatever they want it to say, just by their saying so, if not just by their thinking about it,;and they say it so often that a lot of people believe it. Mr. Smith may not concur.

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This is the MOST important point, J L Graham: “..the law is whatever they want it to say”. THIS is the heart of our fight. The Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, and The Constitution were crafted as a rules-based-system. But man finds great sport in creative interpretations to retain power for the powerful. The craziness that this game burdens people with IS the nut of our “mental-health crisis”. Truly: No Justice, No Peace. Know Justice, Know Peace.

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That's exactly it. That's the authoritarian mindset. Laws and government are there only to serve the interests of The Party and the Leader. There are no underlying principles, only loyalty to whatever The Party the the Leader decree to be correct.

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There was a belief in justice and the essential goodness fairness of people interpreting the laws... norms. We see now otherwise.

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Reality Winner got 5 years for one classified document. How many classified documents have been found in Trump’s possession since he left office? PBS says about 300. 5x 300 = 1500 years. That should do it. No need to take extreme measures.

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Please, consecutive sentences

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"Wait, if Ivanka isn't a citizen, but I still am, does that mean I can date her now instead?"

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Urk.

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Urk Indeed!!!

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Thanks, Will, from Cal. I love it when people go all normal on here. Brings things back to earth. ☺️

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That's how he thinks...

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Jun 1, 2023·edited Jun 1, 2023

"As for TFG discussing at least one classified document with non-authorized people, what penalty should he face for that?"

TFG should be facing an absolute minimum of 20 years in prison for that crime. The prison should be a supermax prison or the military prison at Fort Leavenworth. His crime is a most serious issue. My suggested punishment has nothing to do with my anger or resentment that he's already gotten away with so much. (Check current laws about disclosure of such classified data to other people.)

Many years ago in the Army, I had a TS/SCI clearance. When my fellow high-level clearance soldiers and I were indoctrinated about the seriousness of disclosing classified information, we were told, "If you say one word--ONE WORD--about material you're working with, you can receive 20 years in prison." That's military prison at Ft. Leavenworth, not some Club Fed. Leavenworth is where they sent Chelsea Manning.

If TFG gets away without doing time for this most recent classified material disclosure crime, I will have absolutely no remaining faith in my country's willingness to administer justice. I'm sure I'm not alone in this thinking.

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I really think the most fitting place to lock trump up would be Fort Monroe in VA. They could use the same cell Jefferson Davis was locked up in after the Civil War. It is a national historical site but just think how many people would pay big dollars to walk by the cell with trump. Name your price. Might pay off the national debt.

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Good idea. Further, videos could be made of trump in his cell for an hour or so. Sell them all over the world. Title it "JUSTICE." Maybe the revenues could pay back the $2,000,000,000 trump and jared kushner received from the Saudi prince for not making a big deal about the killing and dismemberment of journalist Kashogi.

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Ah yes . . . the Traitors' Zoo.

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Oh, Mary. Mary, Mary, Mary. Those kids are white. That exception will be part of the EO, don't ya know.

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THEY didn't come from sh*thole countries tho! Let's get clear about who's not ok.

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The king’s ransom that you mention was paid by the Saudi government to the boy wonder Jared to the tune of 2 billion

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Which stinks high heaven.

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But Hunter Biden’s laptop is the ‘real’ crime!

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"You're traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind; a journey into an execrable land whose boundaries are those of nightmares. That's the signpost up ahead - your next stop, the 'GOP's 'Alternative Fact' Zone!"

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And the Saudi’s own 7% of Fox/News Corp. known/disclosed stock ownership. Who knows how much more they own on or off the books. But it does help explain the climate denial by Faux “presenters” and the promotion of Authoritarianism.

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Don't forget Twitter.

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...And the Saudi's own 100% of Jared Kushner and Steve Mnuchin.

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From Federalist #68

“Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one quarter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils. How could they better gratify this, than by raising a creature of their own to the chief magistracy of the Union. “

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I’d like to (unfortunately) comment on Trump’s anti-immigration ideology as a component of your post tonight. I simply do not understand his irrational fears of other peoples (ie not White Supremacists). It is apparent to any rational citizen that this nation was born of immigrants and indigenous peoples who were removed by genocide for the most part; with very few remaining. The histories of so many can be evaluated now with Ancestry.com and their DNA database in addition to family trees, stories, and the like. And we are finally appreciating the contributions of Black slaves whose manual labor was essential to the development of this great nation. History is being revisited as well it should be. Those immigrants coming from our Southern borders are desperately seeking asylum; I am not familiar with the numbers but I remember well Trump’s categorizing them as criminals and drug mules (which in some part is true, again the numbers are unknown to me but the Fentanyl crisis is real and needs to be addressed asap) but turning away vast numbers of desperate people seems cruel and inhumane. Overpopulation and the Climate Crisis have contributed in large measure. Just reading daily about the boats that never reach our shores or the hungry needing to get to family within our country is heartbreaking; I understand a safety net big enough for all would be massive but many of these people work as domestics or in fields gathering crops and do manual labor “above” the status of so many who criticize. I anticipate this issue being the largest in the coming election 2024 as it has hounded administrations for so many years already leading to the disastrous taking of babies from their families. Trump’s last fiasco building a wall that Mexico would pay for has remained clearly in my memory as remnants of it fall in areas & are repaired. It is not a solution. Growing antisemitism is a part of the same issue; we must never forget the Holocaust and deny entry to Jews seeking safety as we did for much too long as WW2 raged and we limited the intake of these people because we did not believe the enormous power of the Nazi regime. This critical issue is paramount to all Democracies and other governments in the world as the population explodes, water covers arable land, food sources are lost. A plan for addressing immigration may differ from state to state but humanity must be preserved. Trump may be indicted and gone; we all wish it to be. Nevertheless, it behooves all citizens to be engaged in solutions to this massive issue as it will only get worse with time. And there is Desantis; please 🙏🏻 give us six more years of Biden to give focus on this issue.

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"please 🙏🏻 give us six more years of Biden to give focus on this issue."

Biden can help a lot, but ultimately it is we who have to focus and encourage others to focus too. I think that is probably the core of what a social justice movement is.

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Jun 1, 2023·edited Jun 1, 2023

"I simply do not understand his irrational fears of other peoples (ie not White Supremacists). It is apparent to any rational citizen that this nation was born of immigrants"

The WSJ has a good article today that will help folks here understand the other side of this issue:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-visual-breakdown-of-americas-stagnating-number-of-births-9a2e6e2d?mod=hp_lead_pos5

A nice graph showing that birth rates are now below "replacement" rates. So, fuel to the fire of the "Great Replacement Theory" of immigration. Which, is not a theory since we replaced the entire native people of America ourselves.

The immigration challenge today is more complex than "irrational fear", although, Trump is stoking that as much as he can.

Today, on earth, there are 7.8 BILLION human beings. Of those, about 70% are living in dire straights of violence, squalor, poverty and lack of hope.

That is 0.7 * 7.8 Billion = 5.46 BILLION people whose lives are tougher than certainly I can imagine.

So, now, if tomorrow, ALL 5.46 Billion people living in horrible situations elsewhere arrive at any of our borders and claim asylum, then, the problems we see in NY City with migrants will be, well?? Suddenly the US will not be anywhere anyone wants to move to and most of us would leave as fast as we could.

Trump is playing people who have a combination of fear and real concern about immigration. Part of the trouble is, Trump is NOT entirely wrong as Biden has made clear with his own tough immigration policy.

The world's wealthy, mostly white countries have a huge challenge. Over the next 20 years most of the rest of the world, who are not white, will want to immigrate from where they are because, where they are is just a mess of poverty, climate change, starvation and disease.

But, taking in all the folks that are going to be in worse than dire straight elsewhere is simply not feasible. No matter how big our hearts appear to be on this text board today. AND?

Trump knows this as does Biden. Biden has instituted some of the toughest immigration barriers in a long while.

Lastly, in a situation where 5.46 Billion people can show up at the border tomorrow and step across the border to have children in El Paso, does it make sense to have automatic citizenship? I will be honest and say: I do not know.

I am always appalled at HOW Trump represents his actions. Always with hate, always with fear, always dividing.

But, on immigration, Trump is not wrong that we need a policy that is fair to existing US Citizens and, not necessarily fair to those who desire to become citizens.

Because, being fair to 5.46 Billion folks showing up tomorrow will be unfair to all the people who read this post today (probably not many).

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Absolutely true we need a policy. But whose responsibility is that? Congress’s. And they won’t do it—takes away its favorite talking point. THAT’S who we should be haranguing.

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Correct

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Jun 1, 2023·edited Jun 1, 2023

In a nutshell, they don’t want their culture to change or their (perceived) hierarchy level to be reduced.

Think of America being like a giant tank of water and every immigrant is an added drop of water.

At the very least, they think these drops will eventually take away room from them (the ‘real’ Americans).

Add to that belief the sentiment that every non-White immigrant, every non-Christian immigrant, every Christian immigrant of a branch they don’t accept, and every poor immigrant, are drops of water with food coloring added to it to denote the change (perceived & otherwise) they make to the America they want to see.

They fear their clear water will become murky.

Now expand that water theory to include American citizens who are not White, not Christian, not certain Christians, women who stand up for themselves and other women, non-heterosexual, non-CIS, non-able bodied/minded, etc.

Because they’re so narrow-minded and can’t just see People (only categories), they feel drowned out, ignored, threatened, and even hunted.

It’s sad - until they start taking ugly actions.

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Indeed. Having enjoyed privilege for so long, they perceive any lessening of the privilege as an attack on their "rights." The notion that they might have to succeed or fail based on their own merit (or lack of it) is understandably frightening.

"Because you are a great noble, you think you are a great genius! Nobility, a fortune, a rank, appointments to office: all this makes a man so proud! What did you do to earn all this? You took the trouble to get born - nothing more." - Figaro, in Beaumarchais's "Marriage of Figaro"

Diversity and cultural change have been part of human history since there has been human history. It is only the dogged ignorance of history (our own and everyone else's) by many Americans that allows them to blind themselves to this reality.

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Well said. I especially love the Figaro quote. Very appropriate.

Regarding privilege, merit, and earning, isn’t it sick that this group calls Black/Brown people lazy when it’s their actual/adopted forefathers who used slave labor?

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Or underpaid, overworked immigrant labor.

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That applies more to greed, I think than being lazy.

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Well written!

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Mike S., you are correct that immigration is a complex issue. What would it take for you to flee your home on foot to go to a place of hope and refuge for your family's life and safety....to walk through jungles, to face the threats of rape, robbery, murder (not only for yourself, but that of your wife, your children), starvation, disease....to a country that you have heard was "a light on a hill...a refuge for the helpless".....the greatest country in the world?

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You are so right! When I was a volunteer translator for an immigration attorney helping asylum seekers, many of the women, especially the younger ones, mentioned that they had started taking birth control pills before their dangerous trek toward Mexico because they were aware that they might be sexually assaulted along the way. But they were determined to make it to the border to seek asylum. They just wanted to be safe and have an opportunity to provide a better life for themselves and their children. Their life struggles broke my heart!

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Times are changing. See my comment a handful above yours

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We need to stabilize our population. I was 9 years old when I realized that, and had we done so then, we'd have around 200 million instead of 335 million people in our country. We are the major industrialized nation with the greatest per capita greenhouse emissions. The world would be much better off, with more time, and a greater likelihood of getting to zero emissions in time to stave off disasters if the US had 135 million less people. Propublica has projected that within several decades, MILLIONS of Americans will become climate refugees.

https://www.propublica.org/article/climate-change-will-force-a-new-american-migration

It is important to realize that global warming is REDUCING THE US' CARRYING CAPACITY. We now recognize the importance of supply chains, but between the heat and the reduction in water supply, the amount of food we can produce is falling.

Animal populations are also falling, across the board. There are less than half as many insects, bottom of the food chain, as there were when I was a kid. You couldn't drive on the highway then, without getting a grill full of insects.

Mass immigration is also big biz' way of reducing wages. In 1980, meat packers were Black, and due to organizing their labor over six decades, they made good middle class wages. By that decade's end, meat packers were almost all immigrants, earning barely above minimum wage, toiling under atrocious conditions. This pattern repeated itself throughout the trades and the low/no skilled jobs. See: Back of the Hiring Line: A 200-Year History of Immigration Surges, Employer Bias, and Depression of Black Wealth, by Roy Beck ($14 on Amazon but check your local book store).

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David, it is not so much the number of people, it is our capacity to use resources far beyond our need. Falling food production is a result of inefficient corporate farming practices that use 20 calories for each one produces, destroys the natural soils, and uses up vast quantities of water. Entire ecosystems are destroyed, because of the use of chemicals that were not needed, and which produced more pests, and human sickness.

There are better, more efficient ways of farming. We are seeing large farms fail, and small, diversified farms beginning to thrive again. We need more of them. As it is, a large percentage of food goes to waste, beginning on the oversize corporate farms and going all the way down the supply chain to markets and food ending up in landfills. Meanwhile we are unwilling to make some of that food available to hungry people right here in this country.

You mention highways. That's another of our grandiose ideas that has backfired, gutting cities and starving small communities.

Those are the things that are reducing the US "carrying capacity". We are seduced into thinking that quality of life is the same thing as owning a lot of Stuff. We think that freedom to drive vehicles on endless multi-lane roads is freedom. We are a society of mostly good people who do thoughtless things to the world we live in, and to other people in the name of something that we think we want, but do not need..

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