On October 31, 2020, former Trump White House advisor Steve Bannon—who had left Trump’s administration in 2017—explained to a group of people that, knowing that votes for Biden would accumulate throughout the evening as mail-in ballots were counted, Trump planned simply to declare victory on election night, seizing the presidency and claiming that any results to the contrary were an attempt to steal the election from him.
While determining the truth regarding violations of international law is complex in war zones, the destruction in Gaza is clearly due to the Israeli military’s indiscriminate use of U.S. bombs. And, thankfully, Biden, has stopped sending them.
Yes and what Joe has done is labeled by some as anti-Semitic. It is mot. It is pro humanitarian but should have started on 10/8. Due to the complexities and inanities of Federal law and GOP (DJT) whinig, it did not. Joe is stuck in the middle. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't
Hamas is a terrorist organization asserting to be a state government. The Netanyahu regime is a state government acting like a terrorist organization. Accepting Hamas claims of casualties or Netanyahu regime claims of compliance is fraught.
But considering the amount of military aid we give Israel, our credibility is tied to our acceptance of Netanyahu administration claims. There is disagreement within the State Department. It is giving Blinken the benefit of the doubt to consider his actions as tied to the Biden administration playing some diplomatic 'long game' with the Netanyahu regime. That, from the Netanyahu regime perspective, Biden is the 'bad cop' pausing aid and Blinken is the 'good cop' giving Netanyahu another chance. Biden has criticized Netanyahu's settlement policies for decades. Blinken has to work with his Israeli counterparts every day.
From long term and current evidence, I cannot doubt Biden's or Blinken's sincerity in working to bring the truculent Netanyahu to the table to seriously negotiate for two sovereign and geographically autonomous states. (Netanyahu has built his career on rejecting a two state solution. The UN General Assembly just took a step in that direction by approving a resolution granting Palestine new "rights snd privileges" and reviving its UN membership bid. With the Israeli representative having his Nikita Khrushchev shoe banging moment, by putting a copy of the UN charter into a mini shredder.)
And all this taking place during a war. And during a political campaign in which both Marjory Taylor Greene and Jill Stein are personally invested in attacking the Biden administration - in service of their own egos and of effectively pandering to Putin by helping elect Trump.
It might be mentioned that Hamas uses human shields as a matter of policy and that is a violation of UN Human Rights. I don't know if the UN has condemned the Oct 7th attack on Israel by Hamas. However Netanyahu mus go. Then it is a travesty that a few wealthy individuals can endlessly escape justice by endlessly appeals what if anyone found guilty by a court could keep appealing.
Human shields. Maybe so. On the other hand, putting aside the rivalry and the politics, would any fighting force choose to stay out in the open? Gaza is fenced in on all sides, leaving Palestinians in a very small area. Under such conditions, the Darwin effect would have eliminated any fighting force who didn't dig in -- the alternative is to breathe the fresh air, and invite Israeli drones to strike them out.
Exactly. There is no space where there aren't many civilians. Just another lie/propaganda from Israel. Now I'm seeing on youtube the horror stories from released hostages. I do NOT believe Hamas was abusing hostages. I believe the hostages were getting more food (still meager) and medical supplies than the Palestinians because Hamas wanted and wants to keep them safe. The hostages have never mattered to the Israeli government. Ever. They have only ever had one goal: cleanse Israel of Palestinians. Dead hostages are just collateral damage. Their families know this and it's making them rightly crazy.
Judith, I wouldn't look to youtube for true stories. I depend on tried and true journalists whose opinions and predictions have proven fairly correct over time.
We currently don't have the eyes and ears of journalists in Gaza. So detailed info is scarce. As they say, the devil is in the details.
No place to hide? How about all the endless tunnels that had to cost millions to make, all of which are under key buildings. The loss of life is exactly what Hamas planned. They do not care one twit for human lives, for them they are all martyrs going to paradise. Israel played right into Hamas's plan. A win-win for Hamas.
We all speculate on Hamas' true reasons and intentions. But it's a known that Israel owns the skies over Gaza. That being the case, it's reasonable to assume that Hamas built the tunnels to escape detection and avoid being easy targets.
But where to dig? The media is replete with opinions that fault Hamas with cowardice and rabid disregard for their own people. I'm trying to imagine Hamas' predicament and walk in their shoes. In doing so, it immediately becomes clear to me that digging tunnels in open areas would be massively unsafe, so they had to camouflage their movements, their comings and goings, carrying massive equipment and materials for the dig, which could only be accomplished by doing it bit by bit and among the population.
I'm a Jew, born and raised on the Lower East Side of NYC -- a block from Delancey Street. My shul where I was Bar Mitvahed in 1953 still stands on Broome Street. And as a Jew I learned to care about the disadvantaged. One can talk all day long about how the Palestinians are responsible for their plot in life, but it's not how I see it. I see them being held down, not being able to move and live free. And that has to change if the Middle East is ever to rid itself of the rage that has existed for 75 years between Israelis and Palestinians.
Israelis have the power, Palestinians don't. And those with the power are in a position to usher the change that future generations will thank them for.
Hamas puts no value on human lives. All that die as a result of their actions, i.e. the attack in Oct and using civilians as human shields, for Hamas they are all martyrs going to paradise.
No, they aren’t. What has to happen is that both the current Israeli clique and Hamas need to be removed and replaced. What Israel needs to recognize is that in the end, only Palestinians can rid themselves of Hamas. That means having realistic Palestinians to deal with, and dealing with them honestly.
Trump's Bibi Bromance - especially supporting settlement land grabs and settler violence -intentionally disheartened many Palestinians who'd previously supported a two state solution.
For decades, Biden has been an outspoken critic of Israeli settlement policy -especially as undermining two state negotiations. His track record should aid Biden administration diplomatic efforts.
This is realistic? Who is going to get rid of Hamas? And who is going to replace them? And who is going to VET these people? Hamas has said they will accept Israel ( or do) and you have to separate out the threats/resistance from their willingness to survive. That is a good bet vs whatever you are saying. Words are easy. yes Palestinians can rid themselves of Hamas ( or Hamas can reform) and should but that will not happen before there is something to live for and no need for resistance.
As for the current Israeli state of mind- larger than a clique by far, this has to be sold to Israelis by Israelis. The left, the peace movement, has been "dissed" decimated and discredited and many have been sold that the whole enchilada belongs to Israel. This is a big deal. There are many many more people who feel this way and depend on might, weapons, walls, containment to prevail.
So this October 7th massacre has shaken Israel and needs to ferment in minds.
US pause in weapons is a good start for distancing ourselves. We, nor Arab countries cannot impose a government on either side. Arab countries are doing well to hold off cooperation with Israel in support of Palestinians as well...
World attention, attention and awakening of the "street" is what Hamas and Netanyahu's response has brought about.
This has been going on for how long? I don't mean October 7th. 1948 is a good place to look. Now in my 80th year, and as I wonder what can be done to bring Palestinians and Israelites together, I fear there is too much history that directs the historical mindsets of both Israel and Palestine. I think: "When one Hamas soldier is killed, how many more are made in "his image?" When one Israeli IDF soldier is killed, how more tightly will be the jaws of Netanyahu? There have been other players in this drama, including other Arab states and Britain, so one can see that trying to make peace in Gaza, now, is an incredible feat if not an impossible one. And then comes the United States into the picture trying to balance its support of Israel while trying to broker peace on both sides. "Oh what a tangled web has been woven," to paraphrase Sir Walter Scott in his poem, "Marmion."
Do you think there are any Palestinians who aren't mad as hell from losing relatives and they all have PTSD. Israel has been teaching from kindergarten that these people are animals....not worth anything. The women giving birth to filthy snakes. Killing and starving them is right.
What makes you think that about Israel or Israelis? It is true that many Israelis view Palestinians in a racist--for lack of a better word--light, but that is hardly true of all of them. Did you know that a very high percentage of doctors and nurses in Israeli hospitals are Palestinians? Are you aware that Israeli Arabs sit in the Knesset, the parliament? And that in the last government some of them were ministers? I suggest you do some deep introspection about your feelings toward Jews.
In their shared rejection of a two state solution, the Netanyahu regime and Hamas share a bullying disdain for the well being of their own people. On Hamas' part, through terrorizing Palestinians and using them as fodder. On Netanyahu's part, by corrupting government institutions.
As a Ugandan journalist said of the Bosnia crisis 'people only stop slaughtering each other when they tire of blood running through the streets.' Hamas and the Netanyahu coalition seem never to tire. Their apologists prolong the violence. But it is possible that the rest of the world is ready. And the Biden administration is helping keep that diplomatic momentum going.
The news is that a Hamas leader has said they are willing to accept Israel and for Palestinians to have their own state. Israel does not want that. So far blood has not been running through Israel's streets. Gaza has no streets anymore.
Leaders of both have wanted the whole enchilada. With enough pain, and EQAUL pain, which is I bet what Hamas is trying to prove, there can be some movement.
Has there been an instance where a self-avowed terrorist organization moderated and became a working government? No. Hamas today could hardly be considered—in any way—pro-Palestinian.
"Has there been an instance where a self-avowed terrorist organization moderated and became a working government? "
Irgun during the mandate. Later its leader Menachim Begin became the Israeli Prime Minister who made concessions and signed the Camp David Accords with Anwar Sadat of Egypt.
Well, you misunderstood the question. No, not even the American government turned its rebel (not terrorist) army into a working government. In that and the instances you cited, some of the leaders were also leaders in forming the government, but in all cases most of the people involved in forming the government, writing laws and foundational documents, establishing practices and procedures for the state, for its people, and establishing the new government in its relationship with the world were scholars, former high-to-mid-level government officials, and those with particular subject matter expertise. The PLA used to have some of this resource, though it has perhaps dwindled away. Hamas has never had any such resources, and has been a farcical force in any attempt to run a community of only 2 million people.
Sinn Féin Poblachtach or Republican Sinn Fein is a splinter of the original Sinn Fein and its terrorist roots. Sinn Féin Poblachtach Has not allowed violent action in its party since its founding. There again, it is a political party, not a government.
You answer your own question! But you are not right. Can Netanyahu be considered "pro Israel" given the results and the direction? And can Trump be considered "pro-American"? No.
I am confused. Is your comment meant to answer mine? If so, I referenced neither Trump nor Netanyahu. I consider Trump to be pro-Trump only, and Netanyahu seems to only pro-keeping -Netanyahu-out-of-jail.
All of this is a puzzle to me. Why do the Muslims hate the Jews so? Was this not known to those who created the state of Israel in 1948? Israel had not existed as a country since 722 B.C. when the Assyrians completed their conquest. We should talk, I suppose. Look what we did in stealing the land from the American indigenous population, or the way we stole half of Mexico's territory as a result of the Mexican American War, 1847-1848. But back to Gaza, viewing the photos of the homes and civilian structures destroyed by Israeli bombs is stomach churning. I don't know if there is a viable solution to Israel and the Mid-East.
Jews out of need because of anti-Semitism started returning in small numbers in the late 19th cent. It was not until after the Holocaust that in desperation they came in numbers. It’s a good history to know to understand this. Maybe you need something concise. This is not that comparable to colonization of the “new world” to my way of thinking. Jews were desperate and had ancient roots in Israel. Western powers supported this after such devastation.
lin, Gangrene and Jill not Green Stein, both acting to help Putin against Biden. I want to gag. I had forgotten (tried to) the egregious Stein. Thank you for this assessment of the situation with regard to Bibi and Hamas. I do not envy Biden. I am glad he has paused sending bombs. I also note that Egypt is not helping as they are worried about the influx of Palestinian refugees which would probably include some Hamas types.
So many nefarious egos involved here as well and their desire to remain in power, making sensible solutions impossible. And so people continue to die and if they live, live precariously.
Excellent analysis. Although the report states that it "noted that it’s hard to collect accurate information in a war zone," there have been hundreds of anecdotal reports and videos of Israeli military sickening humanitarian international law abuses collected by Amnesty International, which is currently being investigated. From the accounts I've read they have acted in the same depraved behavior as Hamas. There is no question that Bibi is engaged in systematic genocide in broad daylight. It took Joe too long to put his foot down. It is striking that both Netanyahu and Trump, the former appeasing his right wingers and the latter world dictators, in order to cling to power so they avoid going to prison.....
Agree 100% with your savvy analysis. Only question I have is that Palestine, Hamas, the Arab Street, clearly don't favor a two-state-solution themselves! They repeatedly advocate for a one-state-solution: and it's been hard to find, frame or foist a leader for them who will negotiate in good faith otherwise.
In Palestine, Hamas has violently suppressed support for two states. The truculence of the increasingly extremist Netanyahu regimes has lead many previous supporters to think demanding full civil rights in one state is the only possibility.
Trump moving the US embassy to Jerusalem and his underhanded Abrahamic Accords was the last straw. Biden and Blinken seem to have revived the possibility. As has the Netanyahu coalition - unintentionally.
Do you think that full civil rights for ALL in one state is a goal worth striving for? It would call for sincere Israeli change, but once the war ends, and Netanyahu receives his just desserts, couldn't it be a possibility?
damned either way, this is that kind of dispute. You don't hear Republicans complaining about 35000 Gazen deaths, and with them some millions of Americans to boot. Israeli public opinion is overall closer to Republicans, and you can imagine why. Should we run a litany over the murders, torturing, raping of Israelis, the continued hostage imprisonment of Israelis in Gaza? How many of them are likely still alive you might wonder. We could of course do the same for Gazan women, men, children shot or blasted to bits, not to mention the enormous others wounded, lives cripplied... and death from starvation. War rhetoric sanitizes all this, except when pointing out "your own".
“War is hell,” which is why it is to be avoided. People sitting outside of war can write rules to have “nice, safe wars,” but is that real when one side (Russia, Hamas,…) is doing anything and everything to win? Russia has been attacking non-combatants and civilian facilities. If Ukraine wants to survive, don’t they have to use all the resources and options they have? Don’t they need to bring pain to Russia to make Russia stop? In 1943, US and RAF attacks on Germany killed 800,000 people, mostly civilians. War is about survival. It’s not a sporting event.
Agreed that “war is not a sporting event.” But as we try to become more civilized, we need to try to end it. That was the purpose of the UN, an organization we should always strive to support and improve. The vision is hazy, but we need to refocus, which is what our president is trying for against warmongers’ wishes.
We have to appreciate the proximity of the rock and the hard space. WE were/are close to war with Iran. OUR troops were/are killed in Syria. US shipping attacked. Some of the hostages are US citizens.
That is what I meant by “threading the needle.” How, with Netanyahu fighting a two-state solution, can there be any solution to this impasse? Do you remember that he encouraged Qatar to continue giving money to Hamas (to build tunnels?) or that settlements on the West Bank were encouraged? I am haunted by the destruction of ancient Arab orchards, which seems to have been an Israeli goal.
Virginia, yes, absolutely (“become more civilized” and “what [Biden] is trying for”). In every generation, there seem to be hateful and/or greedy leaders, and we need tools and ways to stop them before their wars develop. I wish the UN were effective that way.
Goodman. You are on target with "war is hell" . Hamas intentionally brought this on, willingly sacrificed it's own people to bring attention to a long festering situation. It is ugly and painful specticle. Are the scenes from Ukraine any more appealing? Are not the Russians destroying schools, apartment buildings, destroying cities, killing men, women and children? A major difference between the two wars is that THE RUSSIAN INVASION WAS UNPROVOKED. But no campus
protests, no large scale encampments calling for killing Russians or for the destruction of Russia, no UN resolutions, no daily media coverage. Why is there such a difference? It is the world's oldest hate. The memory of the Holocaust is fading. One half of Europe's (East and West) Jews were erased just 80 years ago but that was not sufficient revenge for the supposed killers of Jesus two thousand years ago. We live in a sad, bitter world that still looks to strong, aggressive men as leaders. But look on the bright side.
George, agreed. We also hear barely a peep about the much-greater death toll in Sudan. Sinwar, a key Hamas leader, is hateful for his own egocentric reasons, having nothing to do with Jesus. He was in Israeli prison for murdering Palestinians. With him on one side and Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir, etc, on the other, what can we expect? Can we find ways to stop such people in the bud, before their diseases impact the rest of us?
No. They are not releasing them because it’s their only card to play. Once they release, they lose and are killed. The hostages will only be released if Isreal simply ends hostilities and allows for an international armed force into Gaza and the Yahoo in power won’t allow it so eventually the hostages will all be killed. And it will be rightfully blamed on Netanyahu. This is unfortunately my prediction.
I agree but not that they will be all killed. If they are, the blame goes to Netanyahu moreso. Hamas has to keep the hostages for barter and also be wary that if they are released, stories of their treatment would be told. How they are keeping their well being in this war is related also to Israel prolonging the fighting and Hamas *ability* to keep them well. I imagine (believe) they are being held separately.
Seems to me I've read several pieces of news that told of the numbers of Palestinians - many CHILDREN - that are being held in Israeli prisons. I've also read of several - several times HAMAS has actually agreed to return the hostages but Bibi & his bunch would not agree. I'm sure the families & friends of the remaining hostages arent happy with Bibi. My question is when there seems to be no knowledge of exactly where the hostages are being kept - how is it safe for THEM when Israel bombs & destroys buildings - hospitals, mosques, homes, schools? I have to question - exactly how many hostages are still alive?
I really doubt Bibi's concern is for the hostages rather than his own welfare.
Moot. So to those that call this pause "anti-Semitic" ( a cry that is losing meaning, like "wolf") to be pro humanitarian is anti Semitic? Yes about October 8th when this should have started but Joe and many were traumatized and teary eyed and could not see clearly. But should have much much sooner. This cost. As well there was a political cost which doing the right thing blocked.
Reading your treads i must point out that the Palestinians are Semites. Most Jews are not. This anti-Semites is really anti Jews. It’s a convenient mask of truth. People hate Jews and have hated them since the Roman Catholic Church said the Jews, meaning the people of Judea not the Hebrews killed Jesus . And Jesus the man was a member of the tribe that worshiped the Hebrew god of Abraham.
Anti-Semitism gets to mean anything some Jews don't like others saying. It's losing its power. People reactions get to be "there they go again". This is not smart.
It was mearly a symbolic gesture since the us was already transferred massive amounts of weapons to Israel. The real question that should be asked is why have we allowed a virtually renegade state pretending to be civilized as all nation states do, but why have we ‘allowed’ Israel to act with impunity through the decades against a people to ethnically cleanse them. The truth is hard to accept especially with Jews. I understand this but it’s a salient point. Our lobby mainly Jewish lobby and international Jewish interest have bought congress through the decades to allow Israel to do anything it has wanted including allowing an untenable problem to fester like an open sore.
I recall when backpacking around Europe in the mid 1970s meeting a Jewish American doctor also on the road and returning from an internship in Israel and he told me he could never understand why as he practiced in the hospital, that an Israeli Jew was always treated first. And any Arab Israelis would be treated second as though they were second class citizens. My fellow Americans of newish heritage, I’m afraid the truth hurts. But what Hamas has revealed in their unprecedented vicious attack on Israel is this historic incredible infliction of pain on Arab peoples. We frequently criticize Chinese and what they have done to their ethnic minority Weagers. (Misspelled) And we have given Israeli Jews a pass on account of the disaster befallen them in mid 20th century Europe. This is the history of man kind. I’m not singling out Israeli Jews as a unique circumstance although I am stating it emphatically using it as a modern example.
I know I’ve set myself up for criticism. But these are my feelings, my beliefs. Let’s talk truth here and be real. At 14, I was enamored of General Moshe Dayan with patch over one eye as he heroically battled to save his nation. But it was in reality another in many battles against a people whose only sin was living on lands for thousands of years and not being able to sufficiently able to defend themselves against land loss and lives lost. Our species is a shameful one. I am ashamed.
I do want to acknowledge another unspoken personal point. I know my last name is a Jewish one. I was not brought up Jewish but catholic due to my Italian mother’s wishes. In grade school, I had great teaching nuns who taught us to always use reason and logic as our guiding posts in life and I reasoned myself right out of believing in God at a very early age and they expelled me. Also, when confronted by Jews trying to sell me some advertising or such, first word out of their mouths is, “is your mother Jewish?” Suffice to say, I dislike believers of all persuasions but I tolerate them. I need to because I now am in the marketplace and need to sell shit (Sorry for my Italian.) (That was kind of a joke.) So no, I’m not a self-hating Jew. But I do hate everyone. (That was a joke too, kinda.)
My answer is a stand-up I once did at an open mic at a Methodist church. I opened with (and I thought I had sufficiently cleaned my act up for the Christians like no nasty stuff that I love indulging in) “God made a terrible mistake allowing the wrong primate branch up the evolutionary trail. God had given the tickets to the Bonobos tribe of Africa— a non aggressive sub species, but man grabbed the tickets and ran up the trail. Not only did I not get one laugh, but the pastor called me the following morning and asked me to come in to discuss my apparent anti Christian attitude. That says it all.
Bonobos are matriarchal. That can't fly with patriarchal religions, which have come to dominate the world. Christianity is so patriarchal that God is always a man, Mary had to be a virgin to give birth to Jesus, and women's sole power of giving birth was co-opted in the Garden of Eden story to make Adam appear to give birth to Eve from his rib! It's all patently and biologically fantasy conceived for power purposes to make all things solely female to be "other" and "not Godly" by definition. That’s real anti-christanity for you. Yet historians of ancient man can trace the shifting structures from ancient matriarchy with goddesses rooted in powers of pregnancy and menstruation (bleeding without dying!) to the current patriarchy and all powerful male God depictions with concurrent subjugation of females. Heck, the current abortion bans are a modern perpetuation of the same.
I know, Barbara. And studies have shown that when bonobo males act up, the females simply deny them sex and it calms them right down. So my audience was so stunned by my performance I felt like a million bucks walking away from the mic. I felt like a combo Mark Twain and George Carlin. A month later at the same open mic, I asked the host why there was such angst at my presentation and she screamed at me, “Because God doesn’t make mistakes.” She just happened to be a married lesbian but heck, I didn’t mind except that just a few years ago, she would have been cast out of that church for such oh my God, naughtiness. lol.
"God doesn't make mistakes'. What a joke. If "God" is omniscient and omnipotent, and if intelligent design were true, the "God" makes mistakes happen ALL THE TIME. Evolutionary mistakes, genetic mistakes, disease and climate disasters, and certainly plenty of religious mistakes.
Thank you, Bill Katz. I think about the Old Testament constantly during all these “discussions,” remembering the hate spewed by Israelis I have seen on TV. It is biblical, not 20th century. How many know the long history of the “wandering” Jews or that there was a hardy house plant called “wandering Jew.”? Envy of the successes of Jewish persons in every land they land in (pun intended) has fueled the constant battle against their brilliance and adaptability.
Virginia, "lands they land in" should actually be written, "lands they escaped to after being oppressed in the lands they were born, a process started when the Romans forced Israelite migration out of Judea and Samaria just after the time of Christ."
You should visit Masada in the souhthern part of Israel and Gamla in the north, and learn their histories.
Perhaps that shows that as Israel advanced, so did its Arab citizens? I was in Jerusalem in 1970 and walked safely in the Arab Quarter and to the mosque at the Dome of the Rock. This was after the 1967 war. I wonder what happened to that peaceful coexistence?
My theoretical hunch is that Arafat's Fatah movement pushed some Palestinians towards violence, while influx of Jews from oppressive countries, notably the USSR, shifted a generally idealistic Eutopean-descent population rightward. Until Netanyahu, that idealism prevailed. Since Netanyahu came to power, cynicism started to rise, not in a small way because of the 2 Intifadas and the start of barrages of rockets from Hamas-controlled Gaza.
While all this was transpiring, Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon did nothing for Palestinian Arabs. Donations to Gaza and the West Bank grew as violence grew.
Kill Batz, You must have been fed only anti-Israel propaganda all your life, or you aren't who you say you are.
You obviously haven't been to an Israeli hospital. It seems like you haven't been to Arab neighborhoods or shops in Israel. You've never experienced a rocket attack nor been in a bomb shelter. You must never have been in a modern Israeli apartment in which a secure safe room is required.
Yes, Israelis should never have settled in the West Bank, not because they're illegal, but because their security needs have created the oppressivw conditions you sllude to. But then Arabs should not have pushed out all the Christians in Ramalla either, after Arafat's gang moved there in the early 1960s. (They were pushed out by force, with Arafat's men kidnapping young women and taking them for brides, with extortion, snd with direct violence. Jordan, a true apartheid state, did nothing to correct this oppression, and by the 1967 war, the town became wholly Arab.) I bring that single story I know about to illustrate that somehow the Palestinians were always there and always had claims to all the land is and has been pure bullshit.
Neither side is innocent - not in Israel/Gaza - likely in any of the present on-going "conflicts" - many/most of which the US has or is supplying weapons/training for. Look at OUR history - US citizens (mostly Repubs) want to forget all about what this country & the "immigrants (Europeans-Puritans etc) have done to the true Natives here plus putting slavery in place for "economics" reasons. We certainly do not want our children/grandchildren to be aware of what our ancestors did and were capable of doing, do we? Considering all that - kind of makes you wonder how we feel we are able to teach or judge other countries, right?
Jerry & Bill, lets not go down the rabbit hole here, please.
Commenters on these posts most of the time stay polite & TALK. Well aside from a troll or two now & then.
Susan, much of the behavior of the human race is despicable, I agree, but the race of Homo Sapiens Sapiens is not as a whole despicable. It is still evolving, and we obviously have a long way to go. The process is slower than many of us would like. In my view, I see us in a stage of prolonged adolescence, where tribal thinking and extremism can be common. But idealism is part of what comes into play during adolescence, and the hope to make this world a better place is what I am counting on to prevail. It has long been predicted that this time of the early part of the 21st century would be in upheaval on multiple levels. But the result will ultimately usher in huge changes to increase the consciousness of humankind. We are living during pivotal times. We each have a role to play and I, for one, am grateful for HCR's letters that offer an historical perspective and have inspired this community to come together. Here we can express our thoughts and feelings to find the best way forward for the human race during these incredibly difficult and trying times.
HCRs letters always prove the "history repeats itself." Humanity has a big problem with learning from mistakes. How can the American people forget the catastrophic 4 years of Trumpism? Injecting bleech and nuking a hurricane should have been enough..........how many times does a child need to burn his hand on a red hot stove burner?
Michael, The Republicans yelling about not giving Israel bombs to be used in Rafa have obviously forgotten about Reagan’s stopping supplies of F-16’s to Israel because of the large number of civilian casualties when they bombed Beirut,Lebanon in 1981.
My understanding is that certain types of weapons are still being sent. Those are defensive weapons. That will not discontinue. It is offensive weapons that are supposedly halted. I do not know whether some can be both.
I can't help but wonder what the cost is of those weapons and what could be done with the money spent on them. What the cost will be to rebuild all the bombed infrastructure? How many with limbs lost, malnutrition, or PTSD who will never reach their full potential. The world needs to find a different way to resolve disputes. Monitoring the misuse of weapons seems only a small step in that direction.
That is not something you need to convince me of. It is people like Putin and others like him that need to be convinced of that. In the meantime, I want protections from their aggressions.
The Iranian/Russian connection is a constant consideration. President Biden is trying to thread the needle which is too subtle a stance for what Michael Steele brilliantly with humor calls “the stupids.”
It sure looks like that, except when one looks at the numbers of hamas fighters dispatched by the I.D.F.: basically half of the overall total of deaths. A one-to-one civilian-to-combattant mortality rate is significantly better than death rates in other counter-insurgencies carried out in densely populated areas.
I do not believe half of the deaths were Hamas fighters. I believe Israel lies about everything and our politicians buy it. Hillary actually said the student protesters didn't understand middle eastern history. Maybe they know less than she does, but one thing they do know is that people, children are being slaughtered, hospitals destroyed and there is a state of famine. I guess Hillary is just doing what she can to keep that criminal out of the White House, which is what the Israeli government wants: Their dumb buddy Donald Trump as President. The more misery they cause, right out there for the world to see, the more students and others will protest. Just wait for the Democratic convention.
Unfortunately, we all do. Biden''s hands are not clean but he's the only option in November. I have learned a lot that I was not aware of about how dirty "politics" is. I can't think of another word to describe all the wars that should NOT have been waged and all our citizens who return in a box or ruined for life....not to mention the destruction of millions of little villagers in those countries we invaded.
If you are willing to accept the death toll of 35,000 at face value, you are giving the Gazans the benefit of the doubt that the data are not distorted by hamas. Seems fair to take the Israeli numbers at face value, too, giving the authorities the same benefit of the doubt. The bigger question remains the possible descent into mass famine and dehydration. That may be the crux of Israeli war crimes.
EDIT: what troubles me most is that I can not square pictures of the cityscapes of Gaza and Bakhmut looking very much the same. Easy to condemn Putin. What about Netanyahu?
That is what worries me. Netanyahu is proving to be the best recruiter hamas will ever have. Framing this counter-insurgency as an existential war was a mistake.
Yes about the framing being a mistake. Israel is so armed to the teeth and powerful in other ways (including re the US) that this is ridiculous, but it sells. What is existential is what Israel is doing to itself; destroying itself by continuing the occupation and going for all the land and the government allowing or planning mistreatment, cleansing or "thinning out" of Palestinians.
I suspect that none of us were in Israël on 08oct23; I also suspect that all three of us may recall 12sep01 in the United States. I know how I felt that day; the same as I felt when I served the U.S. government voluntarily in Iraq three years later. While I am proud to have served my country, I blanche at my reasons why.
B.L.U.F. (bottom-line, up-front): there is dirt on both sides between Israël and Palestine. In the end, a focus on everyday people in the Holy Land -- not to mention virulent anti-Semitism and Islamophobia surfacing in our own country -- should inform our judgements and any attendant suggestions. Thank you, Jerry, for favouring reason, restraint, and compassion over ad hominem attacks.
Yes, Potter, it was a tactical error by Netanyahu in not pursuing a lower-intensity counter-insurgency, one that he also had an interest in pursuing. Yes, Jerry, hamas and hizbolah have deliberately targeted innocents for up to forty years. Like their common sponsor, the gangster régime in Teheran, these organizations' aims include an eliminationist anti-Semitism. Several times in Israël's short history, surrounding Muslim states have sought to wipe out the Jewish state.
While this grisly determination has abated in the cases of Jordan and Egypt, much to their credit, Israël can hardly be faulted for feeling insecure with régimes like those of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, as well as, to lesser extents, Yemen, I.S.I.S., and Lebanon in the neighbourhood. As we have seen in the Holocaust, the Balkans, Cambodia, and Rwanda, genocides in deeds follow genocides in words. Potter, show me the genocidal intent in mainstream Israeli rhetoric; show me the kidnapping of children; show me the proof of intent to kill civilians only.
Unfortunately, however, Israël's the continuation of search-&-destroy missions, when the deleterious consequences became clear and predictable early on, crossed the line from collateral damage to collateral carnage. Netanyahu clearly ignoring a clear warning from the International Court of Justice crossed the line from collateral carnage to war crimes.
In my opinion, President Biden has been complicit by sending weapons (e.g., bunker-busting bombs) for use in a densely populated areas. So, one saw the possibility of these bombs killing many (albeit often tainted) innocents above the ground while hamas gangsters were laughing below the ground. We do not know if those bombs ever collapsed any hamas tunnels.
Yet, I made a BIG MISTAKE at the expense of Israël. I had assumed that the numbers of civilians killed to be in addition to hamas fighters eliminated. In reality, half of those Gazans killed were hamas fighters. That leaves a civilian-to-military mortality ratio of one-to-one or, at most (to acknowledge those who claim Israël lies all the time), 1.5-to-one. Either level is significantly better than the ratioes endured in recent urban combat. Israël appears to be using restraint.
At least for me, the main concern right now -- one that could make this bloody war a genocide -- is the looming famine and dehydration of the Gazan population. I have faith in the Israeli people -- a lot more than I do in those Gazans cheering as kidnap and murder victims, untainted innocents all, were paraded by them on 07oct23 -- to intervene and prevent this outcome. That unearths the other BIG RUB here: many arguments assume that hamas fighters reflect all Gazans and that Netanyahu and his coalition reflect all Israeli Jews. And, yes, I am prone to that error, too.
In the end, Potter, your moral judgements ring hollow and out of touch with flawed humanity; most Palestineans and Jews wish to live together in peace and building a common prosperity for their children's future. Yet the governments of good peoples can do bad things. What those peoples do subsequent to those moral lapses is what counts. It will not be the I.D.F., hamas and fellow gangsters, diplomats, or officers on either side that will solve this immense tragedy. It will be the mothers on both sides fed up with burying their children who bleed out in the same color.
Netanyahu's worst wrong here is that he has deferred this hope for at least a generation. Please revert to Leviticus 33 & 34; Netanyu has betrayed the best traditions of Judaism. Israël will set it right. In that better prospect, I have faith.
He did not strike the match, but he created the situation in Gaza that caused the match to be struck, and rather than extinguishing the flame has poured gasoline, nay, napalm and created the conflagration.
Ally, no. Hamas created the conditions in Gaza after the Israelis pulled out all military and all Jews cities in Gaza in 2005. The blockade of Gaza started after Hamas began weekly rocket attacks on Israeli civilians after they violently took over Gaza. As well, residents from Gaza were restricted from entering Israel for work after some Gaza residents killed Israeli citizens. (Those visit restrictions were being progressively lifted, and some Gazan workers in Israel were among those killed on Oct 7).
Sigh. There were no settlements before the 1967 war, started by Egypt and Syria. The Israelis pleaded with Jordan to stay out, but King Hussein opened fire and lost the West Bank as a result. It's important to recall that Israel has faced numerous wars mounted by those who do not want to defeat it, but to wipe it off the face of the Earth. The current conflict is another one of the same. (If you care I want a two-state solution, and I would tell almost all of those in the settlements that they'll have a choice: they can return to Israel, or live in a Palestinian state.)
While determining the truth regarding violations of international law is complex in war zones, the destruction in Gaza is clearly due to the Israeli military’s indiscriminate use of U.S. bombs. And, thankfully, Biden, has stopped sending them.
Yes and what Joe has done is labeled by some as anti-Semitic. It is mot. It is pro humanitarian but should have started on 10/8. Due to the complexities and inanities of Federal law and GOP (DJT) whinig, it did not. Joe is stuck in the middle. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't
Hamas is a terrorist organization asserting to be a state government. The Netanyahu regime is a state government acting like a terrorist organization. Accepting Hamas claims of casualties or Netanyahu regime claims of compliance is fraught.
But considering the amount of military aid we give Israel, our credibility is tied to our acceptance of Netanyahu administration claims. There is disagreement within the State Department. It is giving Blinken the benefit of the doubt to consider his actions as tied to the Biden administration playing some diplomatic 'long game' with the Netanyahu regime. That, from the Netanyahu regime perspective, Biden is the 'bad cop' pausing aid and Blinken is the 'good cop' giving Netanyahu another chance. Biden has criticized Netanyahu's settlement policies for decades. Blinken has to work with his Israeli counterparts every day.
From long term and current evidence, I cannot doubt Biden's or Blinken's sincerity in working to bring the truculent Netanyahu to the table to seriously negotiate for two sovereign and geographically autonomous states. (Netanyahu has built his career on rejecting a two state solution. The UN General Assembly just took a step in that direction by approving a resolution granting Palestine new "rights snd privileges" and reviving its UN membership bid. With the Israeli representative having his Nikita Khrushchev shoe banging moment, by putting a copy of the UN charter into a mini shredder.)
And all this taking place during a war. And during a political campaign in which both Marjory Taylor Greene and Jill Stein are personally invested in attacking the Biden administration - in service of their own egos and of effectively pandering to Putin by helping elect Trump.
It might be mentioned that Hamas uses human shields as a matter of policy and that is a violation of UN Human Rights. I don't know if the UN has condemned the Oct 7th attack on Israel by Hamas. However Netanyahu mus go. Then it is a travesty that a few wealthy individuals can endlessly escape justice by endlessly appeals what if anyone found guilty by a court could keep appealing.
Human shields. Maybe so. On the other hand, putting aside the rivalry and the politics, would any fighting force choose to stay out in the open? Gaza is fenced in on all sides, leaving Palestinians in a very small area. Under such conditions, the Darwin effect would have eliminated any fighting force who didn't dig in -- the alternative is to breathe the fresh air, and invite Israeli drones to strike them out.
Joseph in Fairfield, NY
Exactly. There is no space where there aren't many civilians. Just another lie/propaganda from Israel. Now I'm seeing on youtube the horror stories from released hostages. I do NOT believe Hamas was abusing hostages. I believe the hostages were getting more food (still meager) and medical supplies than the Palestinians because Hamas wanted and wants to keep them safe. The hostages have never mattered to the Israeli government. Ever. They have only ever had one goal: cleanse Israel of Palestinians. Dead hostages are just collateral damage. Their families know this and it's making them rightly crazy.
Judith, I wouldn't look to youtube for true stories. I depend on tried and true journalists whose opinions and predictions have proven fairly correct over time.
We currently don't have the eyes and ears of journalists in Gaza. So detailed info is scarce. As they say, the devil is in the details.
Joseph in Fairport, NY
No place to hide? How about all the endless tunnels that had to cost millions to make, all of which are under key buildings. The loss of life is exactly what Hamas planned. They do not care one twit for human lives, for them they are all martyrs going to paradise. Israel played right into Hamas's plan. A win-win for Hamas.
Harvey,
We all speculate on Hamas' true reasons and intentions. But it's a known that Israel owns the skies over Gaza. That being the case, it's reasonable to assume that Hamas built the tunnels to escape detection and avoid being easy targets.
But where to dig? The media is replete with opinions that fault Hamas with cowardice and rabid disregard for their own people. I'm trying to imagine Hamas' predicament and walk in their shoes. In doing so, it immediately becomes clear to me that digging tunnels in open areas would be massively unsafe, so they had to camouflage their movements, their comings and goings, carrying massive equipment and materials for the dig, which could only be accomplished by doing it bit by bit and among the population.
I'm a Jew, born and raised on the Lower East Side of NYC -- a block from Delancey Street. My shul where I was Bar Mitvahed in 1953 still stands on Broome Street. And as a Jew I learned to care about the disadvantaged. One can talk all day long about how the Palestinians are responsible for their plot in life, but it's not how I see it. I see them being held down, not being able to move and live free. And that has to change if the Middle East is ever to rid itself of the rage that has existed for 75 years between Israelis and Palestinians.
Israelis have the power, Palestinians don't. And those with the power are in a position to usher the change that future generations will thank them for.
Joseph in Fairport, NY
The wealth make a travesty of the rule of law with endless appeals. How to lose respect for the system.
Hamas puts no value on human lives. All that die as a result of their actions, i.e. the attack in Oct and using civilians as human shields, for Hamas they are all martyrs going to paradise.
No way will there be a 2 state solution with Netanyahu who has based his whole career, to put it simply, on hate of Palestinians and their rights.
You might say well this is true of Hamas. And I would disagree. Chances of Hamas moderating are better.
No, they aren’t. What has to happen is that both the current Israeli clique and Hamas need to be removed and replaced. What Israel needs to recognize is that in the end, only Palestinians can rid themselves of Hamas. That means having realistic Palestinians to deal with, and dealing with them honestly.
ThankYou Jon Margolis. As always.
Trump's Bibi Bromance - especially supporting settlement land grabs and settler violence -intentionally disheartened many Palestinians who'd previously supported a two state solution.
For decades, Biden has been an outspoken critic of Israeli settlement policy -especially as undermining two state negotiations. His track record should aid Biden administration diplomatic efforts.
This is realistic? Who is going to get rid of Hamas? And who is going to replace them? And who is going to VET these people? Hamas has said they will accept Israel ( or do) and you have to separate out the threats/resistance from their willingness to survive. That is a good bet vs whatever you are saying. Words are easy. yes Palestinians can rid themselves of Hamas ( or Hamas can reform) and should but that will not happen before there is something to live for and no need for resistance.
As for the current Israeli state of mind- larger than a clique by far, this has to be sold to Israelis by Israelis. The left, the peace movement, has been "dissed" decimated and discredited and many have been sold that the whole enchilada belongs to Israel. This is a big deal. There are many many more people who feel this way and depend on might, weapons, walls, containment to prevail.
So this October 7th massacre has shaken Israel and needs to ferment in minds.
US pause in weapons is a good start for distancing ourselves. We, nor Arab countries cannot impose a government on either side. Arab countries are doing well to hold off cooperation with Israel in support of Palestinians as well...
World attention, attention and awakening of the "street" is what Hamas and Netanyahu's response has brought about.
This has been going on for how long? I don't mean October 7th. 1948 is a good place to look. Now in my 80th year, and as I wonder what can be done to bring Palestinians and Israelites together, I fear there is too much history that directs the historical mindsets of both Israel and Palestine. I think: "When one Hamas soldier is killed, how many more are made in "his image?" When one Israeli IDF soldier is killed, how more tightly will be the jaws of Netanyahu? There have been other players in this drama, including other Arab states and Britain, so one can see that trying to make peace in Gaza, now, is an incredible feat if not an impossible one. And then comes the United States into the picture trying to balance its support of Israel while trying to broker peace on both sides. "Oh what a tangled web has been woven," to paraphrase Sir Walter Scott in his poem, "Marmion."
Yes. There is a very long way to go.
Do you think there are any Palestinians who aren't mad as hell from losing relatives and they all have PTSD. Israel has been teaching from kindergarten that these people are animals....not worth anything. The women giving birth to filthy snakes. Killing and starving them is right.
This is hardly a formula for any good resolution.
What makes you think that about Israel or Israelis? It is true that many Israelis view Palestinians in a racist--for lack of a better word--light, but that is hardly true of all of them. Did you know that a very high percentage of doctors and nurses in Israeli hospitals are Palestinians? Are you aware that Israeli Arabs sit in the Knesset, the parliament? And that in the last government some of them were ministers? I suggest you do some deep introspection about your feelings toward Jews.
In their shared rejection of a two state solution, the Netanyahu regime and Hamas share a bullying disdain for the well being of their own people. On Hamas' part, through terrorizing Palestinians and using them as fodder. On Netanyahu's part, by corrupting government institutions.
As a Ugandan journalist said of the Bosnia crisis 'people only stop slaughtering each other when they tire of blood running through the streets.' Hamas and the Netanyahu coalition seem never to tire. Their apologists prolong the violence. But it is possible that the rest of the world is ready. And the Biden administration is helping keep that diplomatic momentum going.
The news is that a Hamas leader has said they are willing to accept Israel and for Palestinians to have their own state. Israel does not want that. So far blood has not been running through Israel's streets. Gaza has no streets anymore.
Leaders of both have wanted the whole enchilada. With enough pain, and EQAUL pain, which is I bet what Hamas is trying to prove, there can be some movement.
Has there been an instance where a self-avowed terrorist organization moderated and became a working government? No. Hamas today could hardly be considered—in any way—pro-Palestinian.
"Has there been an instance where a self-avowed terrorist organization moderated and became a working government? "
Irgun during the mandate. Later its leader Menachim Begin became the Israeli Prime Minister who made concessions and signed the Camp David Accords with Anwar Sadat of Egypt.
The Irish Republican Army.
Sinn Fein.
https://www.npr.org/2024/03/15/1238876771/how-sinn-fein-has-made-themselves-over
The Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia – People's Army (FARC–EP or FARC)
I don't have time to provide all the examples and citations.
Well, you misunderstood the question. No, not even the American government turned its rebel (not terrorist) army into a working government. In that and the instances you cited, some of the leaders were also leaders in forming the government, but in all cases most of the people involved in forming the government, writing laws and foundational documents, establishing practices and procedures for the state, for its people, and establishing the new government in its relationship with the world were scholars, former high-to-mid-level government officials, and those with particular subject matter expertise. The PLA used to have some of this resource, though it has perhaps dwindled away. Hamas has never had any such resources, and has been a farcical force in any attempt to run a community of only 2 million people.
Sinn Féin Poblachtach or Republican Sinn Fein is a splinter of the original Sinn Fein and its terrorist roots. Sinn Féin Poblachtach Has not allowed violent action in its party since its founding. There again, it is a political party, not a government.
Thank you for those examples.
You answer your own question! But you are not right. Can Netanyahu be considered "pro Israel" given the results and the direction? And can Trump be considered "pro-American"? No.
I am confused. Is your comment meant to answer mine? If so, I referenced neither Trump nor Netanyahu. I consider Trump to be pro-Trump only, and Netanyahu seems to only pro-keeping -Netanyahu-out-of-jail.
All of this is a puzzle to me. Why do the Muslims hate the Jews so? Was this not known to those who created the state of Israel in 1948? Israel had not existed as a country since 722 B.C. when the Assyrians completed their conquest. We should talk, I suppose. Look what we did in stealing the land from the American indigenous population, or the way we stole half of Mexico's territory as a result of the Mexican American War, 1847-1848. But back to Gaza, viewing the photos of the homes and civilian structures destroyed by Israeli bombs is stomach churning. I don't know if there is a viable solution to Israel and the Mid-East.
Jews out of need because of anti-Semitism started returning in small numbers in the late 19th cent. It was not until after the Holocaust that in desperation they came in numbers. It’s a good history to know to understand this. Maybe you need something concise. This is not that comparable to colonization of the “new world” to my way of thinking. Jews were desperate and had ancient roots in Israel. Western powers supported this after such devastation.
lin, Gangrene and Jill not Green Stein, both acting to help Putin against Biden. I want to gag. I had forgotten (tried to) the egregious Stein. Thank you for this assessment of the situation with regard to Bibi and Hamas. I do not envy Biden. I am glad he has paused sending bombs. I also note that Egypt is not helping as they are worried about the influx of Palestinian refugees which would probably include some Hamas types.
So many nefarious egos involved here as well and their desire to remain in power, making sensible solutions impossible. And so people continue to die and if they live, live precariously.
Excellent analysis. Although the report states that it "noted that it’s hard to collect accurate information in a war zone," there have been hundreds of anecdotal reports and videos of Israeli military sickening humanitarian international law abuses collected by Amnesty International, which is currently being investigated. From the accounts I've read they have acted in the same depraved behavior as Hamas. There is no question that Bibi is engaged in systematic genocide in broad daylight. It took Joe too long to put his foot down. It is striking that both Netanyahu and Trump, the former appeasing his right wingers and the latter world dictators, in order to cling to power so they avoid going to prison.....
Yes! Yes! Yes!
Excellent summary, lin. Sadly.
Agree 100% with your savvy analysis. Only question I have is that Palestine, Hamas, the Arab Street, clearly don't favor a two-state-solution themselves! They repeatedly advocate for a one-state-solution: and it's been hard to find, frame or foist a leader for them who will negotiate in good faith otherwise.
In Palestine, Hamas has violently suppressed support for two states. The truculence of the increasingly extremist Netanyahu regimes has lead many previous supporters to think demanding full civil rights in one state is the only possibility.
Trump moving the US embassy to Jerusalem and his underhanded Abrahamic Accords was the last straw. Biden and Blinken seem to have revived the possibility. As has the Netanyahu coalition - unintentionally.
Do you think that full civil rights for ALL in one state is a goal worth striving for? It would call for sincere Israeli change, but once the war ends, and Netanyahu receives his just desserts, couldn't it be a possibility?
damned either way, this is that kind of dispute. You don't hear Republicans complaining about 35000 Gazen deaths, and with them some millions of Americans to boot. Israeli public opinion is overall closer to Republicans, and you can imagine why. Should we run a litany over the murders, torturing, raping of Israelis, the continued hostage imprisonment of Israelis in Gaza? How many of them are likely still alive you might wonder. We could of course do the same for Gazan women, men, children shot or blasted to bits, not to mention the enormous others wounded, lives cripplied... and death from starvation. War rhetoric sanitizes all this, except when pointing out "your own".
“War is hell,” which is why it is to be avoided. People sitting outside of war can write rules to have “nice, safe wars,” but is that real when one side (Russia, Hamas,…) is doing anything and everything to win? Russia has been attacking non-combatants and civilian facilities. If Ukraine wants to survive, don’t they have to use all the resources and options they have? Don’t they need to bring pain to Russia to make Russia stop? In 1943, US and RAF attacks on Germany killed 800,000 people, mostly civilians. War is about survival. It’s not a sporting event.
Agreed that “war is not a sporting event.” But as we try to become more civilized, we need to try to end it. That was the purpose of the UN, an organization we should always strive to support and improve. The vision is hazy, but we need to refocus, which is what our president is trying for against warmongers’ wishes.
We have to appreciate the proximity of the rock and the hard space. WE were/are close to war with Iran. OUR troops were/are killed in Syria. US shipping attacked. Some of the hostages are US citizens.
The purpose of a bomb is.....
What is the best means to extricate hostages...
How do you tell the players without a scorecard?
That is what I meant by “threading the needle.” How, with Netanyahu fighting a two-state solution, can there be any solution to this impasse? Do you remember that he encouraged Qatar to continue giving money to Hamas (to build tunnels?) or that settlements on the West Bank were encouraged? I am haunted by the destruction of ancient Arab orchards, which seems to have been an Israeli goal.
Virginia, yes, absolutely (“become more civilized” and “what [Biden] is trying for”). In every generation, there seem to be hateful and/or greedy leaders, and we need tools and ways to stop them before their wars develop. I wish the UN were effective that way.
Goodman. You are on target with "war is hell" . Hamas intentionally brought this on, willingly sacrificed it's own people to bring attention to a long festering situation. It is ugly and painful specticle. Are the scenes from Ukraine any more appealing? Are not the Russians destroying schools, apartment buildings, destroying cities, killing men, women and children? A major difference between the two wars is that THE RUSSIAN INVASION WAS UNPROVOKED. But no campus
protests, no large scale encampments calling for killing Russians or for the destruction of Russia, no UN resolutions, no daily media coverage. Why is there such a difference? It is the world's oldest hate. The memory of the Holocaust is fading. One half of Europe's (East and West) Jews were erased just 80 years ago but that was not sufficient revenge for the supposed killers of Jesus two thousand years ago. We live in a sad, bitter world that still looks to strong, aggressive men as leaders. But look on the bright side.
yeswris hell
George, agreed. We also hear barely a peep about the much-greater death toll in Sudan. Sinwar, a key Hamas leader, is hateful for his own egocentric reasons, having nothing to do with Jesus. He was in Israeli prison for murdering Palestinians. With him on one side and Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir, etc, on the other, what can we expect? Can we find ways to stop such people in the bud, before their diseases impact the rest of us?
Also, I believe that Hamas is not releasing hostages because there are so few that have not been raped and/or tortured.
No. They are not releasing them because it’s their only card to play. Once they release, they lose and are killed. The hostages will only be released if Isreal simply ends hostilities and allows for an international armed force into Gaza and the Yahoo in power won’t allow it so eventually the hostages will all be killed. And it will be rightfully blamed on Netanyahu. This is unfortunately my prediction.
I agree but not that they will be all killed. If they are, the blame goes to Netanyahu moreso. Hamas has to keep the hostages for barter and also be wary that if they are released, stories of their treatment would be told. How they are keeping their well being in this war is related also to Israel prolonging the fighting and Hamas *ability* to keep them well. I imagine (believe) they are being held separately.
Seems to me I've read several pieces of news that told of the numbers of Palestinians - many CHILDREN - that are being held in Israeli prisons. I've also read of several - several times HAMAS has actually agreed to return the hostages but Bibi & his bunch would not agree. I'm sure the families & friends of the remaining hostages arent happy with Bibi. My question is when there seems to be no knowledge of exactly where the hostages are being kept - how is it safe for THEM when Israel bombs & destroys buildings - hospitals, mosques, homes, schools? I have to question - exactly how many hostages are still alive?
I really doubt Bibi's concern is for the hostages rather than his own welfare.
Moot. So to those that call this pause "anti-Semitic" ( a cry that is losing meaning, like "wolf") to be pro humanitarian is anti Semitic? Yes about October 8th when this should have started but Joe and many were traumatized and teary eyed and could not see clearly. But should have much much sooner. This cost. As well there was a political cost which doing the right thing blocked.
As someone on the receiving end of anti-Semitism, I suggest that you think more about your easy conclusions.
Reading your treads i must point out that the Palestinians are Semites. Most Jews are not. This anti-Semites is really anti Jews. It’s a convenient mask of truth. People hate Jews and have hated them since the Roman Catholic Church said the Jews, meaning the people of Judea not the Hebrews killed Jesus . And Jesus the man was a member of the tribe that worshiped the Hebrew god of Abraham.
Yes, but "anti-Semitism" means prejudice against Jews. It's not ethnically precise, but that's what it was coined to mean.
Anti-Semitism gets to mean anything some Jews don't like others saying. It's losing its power. People reactions get to be "there they go again". This is not smart.
I am Jewish. An eye for an eye does not work. That is my conclusion. Sechel. You may represent some Jewish feeling, not mine.
Soooo, if my Jewish girlfriend wants me to spank her for excitement, I’m I practicing antisemitism? (Im joking again. I can’t get into this.)
Seems like we think alike!
It was mearly a symbolic gesture since the us was already transferred massive amounts of weapons to Israel. The real question that should be asked is why have we allowed a virtually renegade state pretending to be civilized as all nation states do, but why have we ‘allowed’ Israel to act with impunity through the decades against a people to ethnically cleanse them. The truth is hard to accept especially with Jews. I understand this but it’s a salient point. Our lobby mainly Jewish lobby and international Jewish interest have bought congress through the decades to allow Israel to do anything it has wanted including allowing an untenable problem to fester like an open sore.
I recall when backpacking around Europe in the mid 1970s meeting a Jewish American doctor also on the road and returning from an internship in Israel and he told me he could never understand why as he practiced in the hospital, that an Israeli Jew was always treated first. And any Arab Israelis would be treated second as though they were second class citizens. My fellow Americans of newish heritage, I’m afraid the truth hurts. But what Hamas has revealed in their unprecedented vicious attack on Israel is this historic incredible infliction of pain on Arab peoples. We frequently criticize Chinese and what they have done to their ethnic minority Weagers. (Misspelled) And we have given Israeli Jews a pass on account of the disaster befallen them in mid 20th century Europe. This is the history of man kind. I’m not singling out Israeli Jews as a unique circumstance although I am stating it emphatically using it as a modern example.
I know I’ve set myself up for criticism. But these are my feelings, my beliefs. Let’s talk truth here and be real. At 14, I was enamored of General Moshe Dayan with patch over one eye as he heroically battled to save his nation. But it was in reality another in many battles against a people whose only sin was living on lands for thousands of years and not being able to sufficiently able to defend themselves against land loss and lives lost. Our species is a shameful one. I am ashamed.
Billkatz@substack.com
I do want to acknowledge another unspoken personal point. I know my last name is a Jewish one. I was not brought up Jewish but catholic due to my Italian mother’s wishes. In grade school, I had great teaching nuns who taught us to always use reason and logic as our guiding posts in life and I reasoned myself right out of believing in God at a very early age and they expelled me. Also, when confronted by Jews trying to sell me some advertising or such, first word out of their mouths is, “is your mother Jewish?” Suffice to say, I dislike believers of all persuasions but I tolerate them. I need to because I now am in the marketplace and need to sell shit (Sorry for my Italian.) (That was kind of a joke.) So no, I’m not a self-hating Jew. But I do hate everyone. (That was a joke too, kinda.)
No. The real question is why do people hate each other due to the color of their skin and their religious beliefs.
My answer is a stand-up I once did at an open mic at a Methodist church. I opened with (and I thought I had sufficiently cleaned my act up for the Christians like no nasty stuff that I love indulging in) “God made a terrible mistake allowing the wrong primate branch up the evolutionary trail. God had given the tickets to the Bonobos tribe of Africa— a non aggressive sub species, but man grabbed the tickets and ran up the trail. Not only did I not get one laugh, but the pastor called me the following morning and asked me to come in to discuss my apparent anti Christian attitude. That says it all.
Bonobos are matriarchal. That can't fly with patriarchal religions, which have come to dominate the world. Christianity is so patriarchal that God is always a man, Mary had to be a virgin to give birth to Jesus, and women's sole power of giving birth was co-opted in the Garden of Eden story to make Adam appear to give birth to Eve from his rib! It's all patently and biologically fantasy conceived for power purposes to make all things solely female to be "other" and "not Godly" by definition. That’s real anti-christanity for you. Yet historians of ancient man can trace the shifting structures from ancient matriarchy with goddesses rooted in powers of pregnancy and menstruation (bleeding without dying!) to the current patriarchy and all powerful male God depictions with concurrent subjugation of females. Heck, the current abortion bans are a modern perpetuation of the same.
I know, Barbara. And studies have shown that when bonobo males act up, the females simply deny them sex and it calms them right down. So my audience was so stunned by my performance I felt like a million bucks walking away from the mic. I felt like a combo Mark Twain and George Carlin. A month later at the same open mic, I asked the host why there was such angst at my presentation and she screamed at me, “Because God doesn’t make mistakes.” She just happened to be a married lesbian but heck, I didn’t mind except that just a few years ago, she would have been cast out of that church for such oh my God, naughtiness. lol.
"God doesn't make mistakes'. What a joke. If "God" is omniscient and omnipotent, and if intelligent design were true, the "God" makes mistakes happen ALL THE TIME. Evolutionary mistakes, genetic mistakes, disease and climate disasters, and certainly plenty of religious mistakes.
Thank you, Bill Katz. I think about the Old Testament constantly during all these “discussions,” remembering the hate spewed by Israelis I have seen on TV. It is biblical, not 20th century. How many know the long history of the “wandering” Jews or that there was a hardy house plant called “wandering Jew.”? Envy of the successes of Jewish persons in every land they land in (pun intended) has fueled the constant battle against their brilliance and adaptability.
Virginia, "lands they land in" should actually be written, "lands they escaped to after being oppressed in the lands they were born, a process started when the Romans forced Israelite migration out of Judea and Samaria just after the time of Christ."
You should visit Masada in the souhthern part of Israel and Gamla in the north, and learn their histories.
Masada history I know. Didn’t think about Roman “pogroms.” Thank you for reminding me of the Romans.
Oh my god.
Interestingly, a very high proportion of doctors and nurses in Israeli hospitals are Arabs.
Perhaps now but maybe not in 1977 when I had that brief discussion l
Perhaps that shows that as Israel advanced, so did its Arab citizens? I was in Jerusalem in 1970 and walked safely in the Arab Quarter and to the mosque at the Dome of the Rock. This was after the 1967 war. I wonder what happened to that peaceful coexistence?
My theoretical hunch is that Arafat's Fatah movement pushed some Palestinians towards violence, while influx of Jews from oppressive countries, notably the USSR, shifted a generally idealistic Eutopean-descent population rightward. Until Netanyahu, that idealism prevailed. Since Netanyahu came to power, cynicism started to rise, not in a small way because of the 2 Intifadas and the start of barrages of rockets from Hamas-controlled Gaza.
While all this was transpiring, Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon did nothing for Palestinian Arabs. Donations to Gaza and the West Bank grew as violence grew.
I guess we're getting what we paid for.
Did you know that extreme orthodox women become baby factories by order of their men.
Not surprised. And the same may be said of Arab women. Who will care for the many orphans?
Kill Batz, You must have been fed only anti-Israel propaganda all your life, or you aren't who you say you are.
You obviously haven't been to an Israeli hospital. It seems like you haven't been to Arab neighborhoods or shops in Israel. You've never experienced a rocket attack nor been in a bomb shelter. You must never have been in a modern Israeli apartment in which a secure safe room is required.
Yes, Israelis should never have settled in the West Bank, not because they're illegal, but because their security needs have created the oppressivw conditions you sllude to. But then Arabs should not have pushed out all the Christians in Ramalla either, after Arafat's gang moved there in the early 1960s. (They were pushed out by force, with Arafat's men kidnapping young women and taking them for brides, with extortion, snd with direct violence. Jordan, a true apartheid state, did nothing to correct this oppression, and by the 1967 war, the town became wholly Arab.) I bring that single story I know about to illustrate that somehow the Palestinians were always there and always had claims to all the land is and has been pure bullshit.
Neither side is innocent - not in Israel/Gaza - likely in any of the present on-going "conflicts" - many/most of which the US has or is supplying weapons/training for. Look at OUR history - US citizens (mostly Repubs) want to forget all about what this country & the "immigrants (Europeans-Puritans etc) have done to the true Natives here plus putting slavery in place for "economics" reasons. We certainly do not want our children/grandchildren to be aware of what our ancestors did and were capable of doing, do we? Considering all that - kind of makes you wonder how we feel we are able to teach or judge other countries, right?
Jerry & Bill, lets not go down the rabbit hole here, please.
Commenters on these posts most of the time stay polite & TALK. Well aside from a troll or two now & then.
Jerry is my comrade.
Can I sell you from my product line? Special offer just for you. Exploding candles.
Agreed...brutality always arises. Always. The human race is despicable.
Susan, much of the behavior of the human race is despicable, I agree, but the race of Homo Sapiens Sapiens is not as a whole despicable. It is still evolving, and we obviously have a long way to go. The process is slower than many of us would like. In my view, I see us in a stage of prolonged adolescence, where tribal thinking and extremism can be common. But idealism is part of what comes into play during adolescence, and the hope to make this world a better place is what I am counting on to prevail. It has long been predicted that this time of the early part of the 21st century would be in upheaval on multiple levels. But the result will ultimately usher in huge changes to increase the consciousness of humankind. We are living during pivotal times. We each have a role to play and I, for one, am grateful for HCR's letters that offer an historical perspective and have inspired this community to come together. Here we can express our thoughts and feelings to find the best way forward for the human race during these incredibly difficult and trying times.
HCRs letters always prove the "history repeats itself." Humanity has a big problem with learning from mistakes. How can the American people forget the catastrophic 4 years of Trumpism? Injecting bleech and nuking a hurricane should have been enough..........how many times does a child need to burn his hand on a red hot stove burner?
Michael, The Republicans yelling about not giving Israel bombs to be used in Rafa have obviously forgotten about Reagan’s stopping supplies of F-16’s to Israel because of the large number of civilian casualties when they bombed Beirut,Lebanon in 1981.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1981/07/21/reagan-halts-f16s-for-israel/578f0c5e-d018-4317-aa8d-d5b369a0550e/
I hope you're right. I read just a few hours ago in either the Guardian or Washington Post that the weapons were still being sent.
My understanding is that certain types of weapons are still being sent. Those are defensive weapons. That will not discontinue. It is offensive weapons that are supposedly halted. I do not know whether some can be both.
the Iron Dome stands.
I can't help but wonder what the cost is of those weapons and what could be done with the money spent on them. What the cost will be to rebuild all the bombed infrastructure? How many with limbs lost, malnutrition, or PTSD who will never reach their full potential. The world needs to find a different way to resolve disputes. Monitoring the misuse of weapons seems only a small step in that direction.
That is not something you need to convince me of. It is people like Putin and others like him that need to be convinced of that. In the meantime, I want protections from their aggressions.
They are still being sent.
The Iranian/Russian connection is a constant consideration. President Biden is trying to thread the needle which is too subtle a stance for what Michael Steele brilliantly with humor calls “the stupids.”
It sure looks like that, except when one looks at the numbers of hamas fighters dispatched by the I.D.F.: basically half of the overall total of deaths. A one-to-one civilian-to-combattant mortality rate is significantly better than death rates in other counter-insurgencies carried out in densely populated areas.
I do not believe half of the deaths were Hamas fighters. I believe Israel lies about everything and our politicians buy it. Hillary actually said the student protesters didn't understand middle eastern history. Maybe they know less than she does, but one thing they do know is that people, children are being slaughtered, hospitals destroyed and there is a state of famine. I guess Hillary is just doing what she can to keep that criminal out of the White House, which is what the Israeli government wants: Their dumb buddy Donald Trump as President. The more misery they cause, right out there for the world to see, the more students and others will protest. Just wait for the Democratic convention.
Chump and Bibi are evil twins. The protestors need an update on who will make things worse
Unfortunately, we all do. Biden''s hands are not clean but he's the only option in November. I have learned a lot that I was not aware of about how dirty "politics" is. I can't think of another word to describe all the wars that should NOT have been waged and all our citizens who return in a box or ruined for life....not to mention the destruction of millions of little villagers in those countries we invaded.
If you are willing to accept the death toll of 35,000 at face value, you are giving the Gazans the benefit of the doubt that the data are not distorted by hamas. Seems fair to take the Israeli numbers at face value, too, giving the authorities the same benefit of the doubt. The bigger question remains the possible descent into mass famine and dehydration. That may be the crux of Israeli war crimes.
EDIT: what troubles me most is that I can not square pictures of the cityscapes of Gaza and Bakhmut looking very much the same. Easy to condemn Putin. What about Netanyahu?
Netanyahu has done more damage to Jews worldwide than can be calculated.
That is what worries me. Netanyahu is proving to be the best recruiter hamas will ever have. Framing this counter-insurgency as an existential war was a mistake.
Sort of like the attack on Iraq was a great recruiter for Isis.
Yes about the framing being a mistake. Israel is so armed to the teeth and powerful in other ways (including re the US) that this is ridiculous, but it sells. What is existential is what Israel is doing to itself; destroying itself by continuing the occupation and going for all the land and the government allowing or planning mistreatment, cleansing or "thinning out" of Palestinians.
Jerry and Potter,
I suspect that none of us were in Israël on 08oct23; I also suspect that all three of us may recall 12sep01 in the United States. I know how I felt that day; the same as I felt when I served the U.S. government voluntarily in Iraq three years later. While I am proud to have served my country, I blanche at my reasons why.
B.L.U.F. (bottom-line, up-front): there is dirt on both sides between Israël and Palestine. In the end, a focus on everyday people in the Holy Land -- not to mention virulent anti-Semitism and Islamophobia surfacing in our own country -- should inform our judgements and any attendant suggestions. Thank you, Jerry, for favouring reason, restraint, and compassion over ad hominem attacks.
Yes, Potter, it was a tactical error by Netanyahu in not pursuing a lower-intensity counter-insurgency, one that he also had an interest in pursuing. Yes, Jerry, hamas and hizbolah have deliberately targeted innocents for up to forty years. Like their common sponsor, the gangster régime in Teheran, these organizations' aims include an eliminationist anti-Semitism. Several times in Israël's short history, surrounding Muslim states have sought to wipe out the Jewish state.
While this grisly determination has abated in the cases of Jordan and Egypt, much to their credit, Israël can hardly be faulted for feeling insecure with régimes like those of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, as well as, to lesser extents, Yemen, I.S.I.S., and Lebanon in the neighbourhood. As we have seen in the Holocaust, the Balkans, Cambodia, and Rwanda, genocides in deeds follow genocides in words. Potter, show me the genocidal intent in mainstream Israeli rhetoric; show me the kidnapping of children; show me the proof of intent to kill civilians only.
Unfortunately, however, Israël's the continuation of search-&-destroy missions, when the deleterious consequences became clear and predictable early on, crossed the line from collateral damage to collateral carnage. Netanyahu clearly ignoring a clear warning from the International Court of Justice crossed the line from collateral carnage to war crimes.
In my opinion, President Biden has been complicit by sending weapons (e.g., bunker-busting bombs) for use in a densely populated areas. So, one saw the possibility of these bombs killing many (albeit often tainted) innocents above the ground while hamas gangsters were laughing below the ground. We do not know if those bombs ever collapsed any hamas tunnels.
Yet, I made a BIG MISTAKE at the expense of Israël. I had assumed that the numbers of civilians killed to be in addition to hamas fighters eliminated. In reality, half of those Gazans killed were hamas fighters. That leaves a civilian-to-military mortality ratio of one-to-one or, at most (to acknowledge those who claim Israël lies all the time), 1.5-to-one. Either level is significantly better than the ratioes endured in recent urban combat. Israël appears to be using restraint.
At least for me, the main concern right now -- one that could make this bloody war a genocide -- is the looming famine and dehydration of the Gazan population. I have faith in the Israeli people -- a lot more than I do in those Gazans cheering as kidnap and murder victims, untainted innocents all, were paraded by them on 07oct23 -- to intervene and prevent this outcome. That unearths the other BIG RUB here: many arguments assume that hamas fighters reflect all Gazans and that Netanyahu and his coalition reflect all Israeli Jews. And, yes, I am prone to that error, too.
In the end, Potter, your moral judgements ring hollow and out of touch with flawed humanity; most Palestineans and Jews wish to live together in peace and building a common prosperity for their children's future. Yet the governments of good peoples can do bad things. What those peoples do subsequent to those moral lapses is what counts. It will not be the I.D.F., hamas and fellow gangsters, diplomats, or officers on either side that will solve this immense tragedy. It will be the mothers on both sides fed up with burying their children who bleed out in the same color.
Netanyahu's worst wrong here is that he has deferred this hope for at least a generation. Please revert to Leviticus 33 & 34; Netanyu has betrayed the best traditions of Judaism. Israël will set it right. In that better prospect, I have faith.
It's a war, not a counter insurgency. Hamas still has thousands of trained fighters and still has stockpiles of weapons.
This is certain.. and this damage to Jews worldwide was easy to foretell.
Required no Einstein, just a brain not hardened by hatred. Something legions of Jews have lived (or died) with for eons.
The French-Americans during the 50s-60's helped fill the ranks of the Viet Cong...NLA and North Vietnams regular army constantly...year after year.
And the beat goes on, and on, and on
Netanyahu, for all of his corruption and incompetence, did not start it.
He did not strike the match, but he created the situation in Gaza that caused the match to be struck, and rather than extinguishing the flame has poured gasoline, nay, napalm and created the conflagration.
Ally, no. Hamas created the conditions in Gaza after the Israelis pulled out all military and all Jews cities in Gaza in 2005. The blockade of Gaza started after Hamas began weekly rocket attacks on Israeli civilians after they violently took over Gaza. As well, residents from Gaza were restricted from entering Israel for work after some Gaza residents killed Israeli citizens. (Those visit restrictions were being progressively lifted, and some Gazan workers in Israel were among those killed on Oct 7).
That depends on how you characterize decades of "settlements."
Sigh. There were no settlements before the 1967 war, started by Egypt and Syria. The Israelis pleaded with Jordan to stay out, but King Hussein opened fire and lost the West Bank as a result. It's important to recall that Israel has faced numerous wars mounted by those who do not want to defeat it, but to wipe it off the face of the Earth. The current conflict is another one of the same. (If you care I want a two-state solution, and I would tell almost all of those in the settlements that they'll have a choice: they can return to Israel, or live in a Palestinian state.)