"The Democratic Party has a longer history of disenfranchisement of voting and other rights"
So what?? That was then, this is now. It's tedious to listen to folks who can't, or won't, distinguish between the Dems of the 1850s or Jim Crow era, and the contemporary Party. It is literally ignorant, i.e. ignor-ant, a deliberate choice to rema…
"The Democratic Party has a longer history of disenfranchisement of voting and other rights"
So what?? That was then, this is now. It's tedious to listen to folks who can't, or won't, distinguish between the Dems of the 1850s or Jim Crow era, and the contemporary Party. It is literally ignorant, i.e. ignor-ant, a deliberate choice to remain uninformed by disregarding facts. After the VRA in 1965, southern Dem vote suppressors migrated to the GOP where they found a hearty welcome. They've spent 50 years perfecting the suppression strategy and STILL won't cease and desist.
Another crucial difference today is that the GQP seeks, not to control or limit democracy, but to destroy it. The mob of filthy, seditious insurrectionists who stormed the Capitol was overwhelmingly Repuglycan; they will wear that badge of dishonor for eternity. It's not necessary to reprise their dismal litany of illegal and unconstitutional actions under Der Pu$$enGropenFuhrer, but anyone who doesn't see the pattern is ignor-ant. Dems have never had anything like the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy Hillary identified many years ago. Now, excuse me, I'm off to burn the Confederate flag in public.
I think you missed my point about the problem of one party domination. HCR referred to the time period, not I. And that period was lead by Democrats. I had written more, but chose to delete it.
As for the so what of history, perhaps Foner's 2017 interview in the Nation can shed some light.
I don't deal in abstractions. National one-party rule is an abstraction, far less important than the actual, concrete results of GQP voter suppression and gerrymandering -- the product of one-party domination of red states. Dr Foner is a friendly acquaintance whose work is very familiar to me. Anyone can rummage through his oeuvre to find something that might support their views, especially from an interview which carries less weight than written publications. But his entire career shows that the large majority of his thought runs counter to yours.
I wrote a long reply, posted it, and then deleted it.
First, as I see it, you are dealing in abstractions now. You, and others, have yet to prove that the GOP gerrymanders and that their success in "red" states is a result of such a charge. More importantly, you and others make it sound that Dems have never engaged in such activity. More importantly, as this inane threat started, it's based on an opinion that will be spread as truth. I only pointed out the facts and reassert what HCR stated, one party domination is wrong. We saw it with the Southern Democrats in the South for nearly 100 years. Your better argument would have been, right, but we've learned our lessons and are trying to change.
Second, I've read Dr. Foner's work. Agree with some, not sure I accept other points of view. But, I do agree that we need a usable history to make progress at working towards the goals of our Constitution. Maybe we should adopt the high school requirements of the Germans. Make our students visit slave housings on a plantation or German/Italian/Japanese internment camps (built during the Democratic Presidencies of Wilson and Roosevelt) or walk the streets of disadvantaged neighborhoods/slums/jails/battlefields where Native Americans died, etc. Maybe then they'll realize what our history is really like and make an effort to do better.
Third, and final point, I believe we need to start looking for common ground versus the great divide we now endure. It's hard work, but it needs to be done. And, I believe President Biden's call to end this Uncivil War, one that both parties share in the blame, must be started. That doesn't mean rolling over and playing dead. But, it does mean listening to what others say. Dems hold the national power now. If they want to continue to and disrupt the trend of mid-term elections, the party needs to find a common ground to bring Republicans into their camp. Calling them the GQP isn't it.
Ok, on the gerrymandering question, I already mentioned California's history, that's all I know. End of story. The other experts here will have to engage you, and by now, they are reading the current HCR discussion. This page is old news.
I am of the opinion that the Southern Democrat Party bears little or no relation to the modern Democratic Party, but here again, Dr. Richardson or TPJ or Stuart or someone else will have to step in. In Lincoln's election, it was more like Europe is today, a multi-party system instead of a 2-party system, with 4 viable parties competing for representation in the WH. Somehow Lincoln won the election in what I have seen called in California a "jungle" election, which is a free-for-all, with everyone on the same ballot and not separate ballots like a primary election. The Southern Democrats became the party of the KKK, as disaffected Southerners, because it was the party of Southerners to begin with. Then somehow the Southern Democrats became merged with the Democrats, or changed names, I don't know, then LBJ and the Voting Rights Act drove them to the Republican Party.
I've never read Dr. Foner. That's between you and TPJ.
Of course I am in complete agreement with your statement about the high school requirements of the Germans. As far as I'm concerned, getting American high school students out of the classroom and into the field would give them education and knowledge they sorely lack.
Your final point about common ground: of course I agree completely, why else are you and I here having this conversation. I have had my father all my life, and I have engaged (albeit to a limited degree) in his social circle for decades, so I am accustomed to engagement and finding common ground. He and I love each other, even though we have so little in common, as it turns out, politically and socially. But nevertheless common ground is there, kindness, civility, generosity, mutual respect, there is plenty to recommend my father. People rave about him to me all the time.
I have received a bit of blowback, nothing serious but noticeable, here on HCR and elsewhere for taking what are apparently controversial positions. To your point: I think Adam Kinzinger, Ben Sasse, Mitt Romney voting for impeachment the 1st time, and other Republicans I could name, make a lot of sense, and they get my respect. Not my approval necessarily, not my undying love, but my respect. Even McConnell, whose methods I despise, has come out against the criminal Trump.
I hope you are ok with me disparaging 45, because this guy is so dirty in so many ways that it's impossible to keep track. He will need a presidential library just to contain all the evidence. Greg Olear on Substack has done numerous deep dive investigations, and nothing that comes out is ever pretty. Often, when the context is pertinent, I write his name as Tя☭mp because of his partnership with Putin. Remember them in Helsinki? Finland is kinda, sorta, in the Russian sphere of influence. From the Russian point of view, Finland is neutral ground, a fitting place for that meeting. Did we ever think we'd see a president who is friends with the leader of Russia? There is also sex crimes, there is NYC mob history (real estate related), there is financial corruption, each of these categories will require an entire wing in his presidential library.
Dr. Heather Cox Richardson tends to limit herself to what she knows, she has made that very clear, which means U.S. history. Russia is not her area of knowledge or expertise, so she stays on firm ground. However, I do not run this web site, I am not a respected historian with a reputation to uphold, I am merely a student, so I can speak as I please. These named Republicans care about the democracy enough, and are unswayed by the current anti-democratic tide enough, to get my tacit approval. My father voted for Mitt Romney back when he was running against Obama. I would have a conversation with Larry Hogan or Ben Sasse in a heartbeat. They might not get my vote if I were in their district, but hey, they would probably get my dad's vote.
Personally, I don't find it offensive to call the GOP the "GQP." However, I want to set the table with you, and that conversation is quite a bit more controversial than what we have been discussing, so I'll table it for now. I will say this: I do not identify as a Democrat. I may vote Democrat, but that's it, I do not affiliate with parties, although I could call myself a Green, which, curiously and ironically, appeared in Bavaria, the home of my heritage. If the Democratic Party started attracting racists and anti-Semites to its cause, I would disown them in a heartbeat. The man with the shirt that says "Camp Auschwitz" on the front and "Staff" on the back is not my friend. My wife saw that in real time, on TV, on January 6. She is half Jewish, her maternal relatives were wiped out of their town in what is now Belarus by the Germans. That's just an aside, but it's pertinent because it refreshes my other point, that these genteel words in print on HCR's web page may seem divorced from the real world, but they are not. Anti-Semitism wasted millions of lives. I have relatives who fought and died on what Nazi Germany called "the Eastern front," when Russians and eastern Europeans were considered subhumans. So blood is at stake here. Lives at are stake.
Speaking for myself, a party that coddles and takes in money and support from that demographic is not going to make me smile or make me just walk away.
In closing, Larry, I just want to say I am not conflict averse. I have defused tensions here. Not always successfully, but that seems to be my role, much more than being a source of history knowledge. So you can bring up anything with me that you like, anything. I can handle it. If I don't know enough, if my resources are insufficient, I will say so. I am that guy who runs counter to the stereotype: I use maps. I get directions. I read the instructions. I rely on resources and information, and I'm not shy about it. But I also don't accept information blindly, I am acutely aware of the reliability of a source, and even then, you have to remain cautious. For example, I am very skeptical of giving a political news TV show the name "Reliable Sources." Come on. If you just believe what people tell you, you deserve the consequences of being a misguided fool. That's how the Russians view DT, by the way, "a useful fool," a tool.
I stand on firm ground in certain areas, and when I do, you will have to use convincing arguments to get me to agree.
Good talking to you.
Hope your experience here in Dr. Richardson's subscriber community goes more smoothly from now on.
Enjoy the rest of your day and week. My best to you and your family.
Hello again Larry! I'm at home, on my laptop, I can actually follow the discussion much more easily because of the much larger screen. It's snowing where I live in rural mountainous California, I'm not working tomorrow, perfect time to get back to you. Van Morrison is on Pandora, my wife is playing something called the J.J. Cale music channel, Lord knows what that is, but I love the songs that are playing. We just finished watching latest episode of To Tell The Truth, with Anthony Anderson and his mom Doris.
I am setting a scene to let you know I am a real person. You gave us a ton of information about yourself, but unfortunately I don't have access to it now: I'm sorry you deleted your post, it had a wealth of information. Normally we don't delete posts here, even with errors, we just correct in an add-on post. If I'd known this would happen, I would have copied and stored your words.
Since we are getting to know each other, a few things about me that most of the people here already know: I am 62. White, male and straight. That's important, it turns out, when we are discussing U.S. politics. I am not a FB or Tw or social media user, opposed to the business model. This forum is my first on-line community. Otherwise Greg Olear and Lucian Truscott on Substack, TC referred me to Lucian, and we have text groups in my family, that's it.
My parents were born in Germany and my dad in particular had a front-row seat for the entire Hitler administration, because he is from Munich. Our family lived in Germany in my teens, I knew my pro-Hitler grandmother, visited the paternal childhood home often, visited Dachau once, so I have some education with that period. All my heritage is German. I speak German, and am something of a linguist, certainly a better linguist than historian. I am the first in my immediate family born in this country, 2nd overall behind my 1st cousin Mike, my parents met in San Francisco and had me there. Public school in SF and the metro area, later graduated from a civilian school with an American high school diploma in Germany, college in southern California, engineering degree, Eagle Scout (you can take the boy out of Scouting, but you can't take Scouting out of the man), yada yada yada.
Not a historian, rely on the wealth and depth of knowledge here in this group, and trust me, it is extensive. I do not recommend underestimating that depth of knowledge, TPJ for example is a working history teacher in Boston, Linda Mitchell another history expert, TCinLA (I call him "TC") 20thC and WW2 and military and beyond expert, and the list goes on and on . . .
I am surmising you have been a Republican for a long time, perhaps are now, based on your post. My father is a diehard German-born conservative, and once he arrived in this country, lifetime Republican. Votes like clockwork, watches Fox and reads WSJ regularly. Drives me crazy my entire life, this month I have finally figured him out.
It has taken me a lifetime to discover who I am politically and socially. My wife is from southern California and moved to the SF area as soon as she could, but she could easily have been born in Berkeley, and in fact she lived next-door in Oakland for decades. Some of her closest friends are Cal grads. Her parents are actual Communists. Had to change lifestyle during Joe McCarthy years. Union organizer parents, mom with social worker degree from UCLA, believed in the ideal of communism until disillusioned by the Soviet Union and then abandoned it.
I didn't meet my wife knowing about her politics, that showed up later. I met her in a personal growth environment, what my dad would derisively call a hippie setting.
In context of a recent HCR discussion about Christianity, I found myself posting about my Christian pedigree. I didn't even know I had a Christian pedigree until a few weeks ago. Father raised Roman Catholic in Bavaria, where Josef Ratzinger, the last pope, is from. Went to Sunday School as an elementary school age kid. Even applied to Yale Divinity School in my 20s and got offered full ride scholarship, but changed my mind and took a different direction, aviation technology program. Learned mechanical stuff, machines and engines and aircraft and autos.
I have had more jobs than I can remember, my C.V. would run on for 10 to 20 pages. Transportation and psychology are the biggest themes. Very briefly aviation mechanic, 6 years limo and van driver, and for the last 23 years, trucking, so that's over 30 years in transport.
On this forum, I am testing out my knowledge of politics and society and U.S. history like never before. I'm no dummy, I was first (in my class of just 44) in H.S., but didn't take any history or politics in college, and my WW2 and Nazi Germany knowledge is self-taught.
Most of what I know about U.S. politics I learned in the past 12 months here on HCR and by reading the news. I defer to others constantly. Until now, spurned politics.
Hey Roland, Nice to meet you. This is a long response it seems.
It's now 10:00 am, and I started at 6:30 am, but have had plenty of rewrites so as to keep this reasonably short and entertaining/informative as yours is.
First, I'm soon to be 70, and would be outwardly characterized as a WASP, though my internal character is a product of being a Navy brat, college degreed, long time married with two daughters, and a 43 year governmental career. First a 28 year career in the Army, 2 year stint in the 70s with Carnation Sales force in San Leandro, and upon military retirement, 14 years in county government in Washington State.
As a youth, lived in Florida, California, Hawaii. Went to high school and junior college in Modesto, transferred to UC Davis in 1971 for last two years. Had gotten my "Greetings letter" as a sophomore, entered ROTC to "evade" the draft. Got an 18 months scholarship which incurred a 4 obligation on active duty. The four years ended up being 28, 2 of it reserve, and I retired in 2001.
Had a successful Army career. Got promoted on time, got to command at all levels, got to serve on staffs at the National/International level, went to key Army schools that are more "open" to differing points of view than many liberal or conservative big name colleges, etc. In short, can't complain.
Upon retirement, went to work in county government in Washington State (blue state). On state and national elections, one county leaned Republican, the other Democrat. At the local level, both parties had representation on the Board of Commissioners. My job was Director level, one point being a County Administrator, so I had the opportunity to see party politics.
Add to this mix is I married the rancher's daughter. Her parents were first generation American, family came from the Netherlands. Very conservative, Republicans. (My family was Democrat but we never discussed politics due to Dad's Navy career and politics wasn't discussed in military communities or around the table.) So my education came from college and my in-laws dealings with the rising regulations regarding ag, etc. Then I went in the Army, and politics was off in the distance.
Being in the military, I lived with, served with, and served under people of color and women. We all have biases, but I will say that I've focused on checking mine because I know systematic racism exists, see it being countered with promotion floors for people of color and women, while in the Army. Some would say the cop out was everyone's green. But, at some point it becomes true. I didn't care what they looked like or what their gender was, I cared if they put their talent to work as part of the team. And, I made sure that my evaluation reports reflected their best qualities so they'd be competitive. And, I can honestly say, that they most of them had highly successful careers and I only a part of it.
It is based on this background I make my comments. In high school and college I debated. Here I was forced to present evidence. In my Army career, you had to present facts and analysis, as I had to in local government when developing policy positions for commissioners that would have to be translated into county codes.
Some lessons I learned in the military that have guided me well.
1) The first report is always wrong and unless challenged gets a life of its own. Thus, I have an aversion to blatant sound bites that are either outright lies or misdirection. Case in point, Republicans can only win elections through gerrymandering and voter suppression. All I'm asking is the evidence is that proves it.
The issue of voter suppression is a bit more complicated and warrants research. Why is there a spate of bills being introduced across the country? It's easy to point the finger and say Republican legislators are trying stop people from voting versus trying to fix loops holes or clarify legislation to ensure election integrity. Why is Trump able to promote the Big Lie? Why was Pennsylvania in the news? My take is that Democrats circumvented the legislature, went to court and eventually the State Supreme Court ruled that votes could be counted if received by 5 pm on Friday regardless of postmark time and date. The US Supreme Court agreed the votes could be counted, but those ballots had to meet the state law regarding postmark. If you're a Republican legislator, how would you feel/react. But, the way the statement constantly resonates here bothers me and I feel someone has to challenge it. I could be totally wrong, but Group Think without any challenges don't work for me.
2) Respect the individual and their opinion. They probably know something you don't.
In the early 1980s, the Army adopted a set of values. One of them is Respect. I may not agree with your opinion, but, I shouldn't attack you with insults for that point of view. For example to say that the 74 million Americans who voted for Trump are QAnon believers, or they support voter suppression, or whatever is pure .... Where's the respect in that? But, to call out Trump and those engaged in criminal insurrection is a fact. To be angry with them is a fact. To have distain with them is a fact because we saw it happen or there is evidence to the same.
3. Equality means a level playing field and the rules need to apply to all equally. You can't change them in the middle of the game. While the discussion about filibustering is warranted, it's ridiculous to claim Republicans are ignoring the "people's" will for using the very same tools Democrats used l during the Trump Administration's effort to get legislation passed that people wanted, i.e. a stimulus round two starting in July.
4. The mark of good leader isn't the fact they have a problem, but how they solve the problem. Which is why I think President Biden will regarded as a great leader in the future. He gets it. He's built a team of qualified and experience people who know how government works - politically and administratively. It's going to be rough going but he needs people like this group to help.
HCR and others can help by focusing on what President Biden asked Americans to do - end this uncivil war.
Political polarization is real. And, its gotten worse since the 1990s. Both parties and social media, despite its good intentions, are to blame.
While people are angry and want to vent is understandable, at some point it nothing more than reinforcing a hatred that I saw in Bosnia. There is a time to stop, let it go, move forward. Dems have a golden opportunity ahead. They aren't going to win votes by calling Republicans GQP, ignorant, etc. Look how deplorables worked out for Hillary.
Roland I apologize for this long email. I've written and rewritten it several times. Need to stop.
Thanks for sharing your insights and background. It helps me. I hope this helps you see where I'm coming from as well.
Finally, what rural California community do you live in?
I am very pleased with your response. Just the fact that we are talking tells me you are a person of substance and character. So far, I see places where we put different priorities on certain items, but I see no points of disagreement. None.
I read and reread your letter several times. Suffice to say you have my complete respect. I should mention, to your first point about the first draft being always wrong, that this forum is populated with a lot of experienced, grounded people. A lot of old fogeys like you and me. This is not a flaky group, not by a long shot. Your presence here is proof enough, but you should see some of the backgrounds that these people have. It’s impressive. Just in passing, I’ll mention that there is an author here who has written 40+ books on World War II history and the military. That is not an isolated example. Lots of historians, teachers, smart solid people. Less experienced people too, but excellent character and good values offsets the inexperience. I like them. And I like you. I have high standards, so those words do not come easily out of my mouth. I don’t just like everybody who agrees with me, it doesn’t work that way. I actually don’t like most people, for example truck drivers and office people. I love them, they’re humans, we’re in the same boat, we are cut from the same cloth, but that doesn’t mean I like them. I have rarely been disappointed here. Just saying. You won’t find much lockstep, knee-jerk liberalism here.
You don’t have to apologize, at least not to me, for the length of your letter. After all, I was the one who said “damn I wish I had your original letter that you deleted.“ Thank you very much for the full report, I do appreciate the time, 3 1/2 hours is a long writing block.
The only thing in your letter that gave me a slight pause is your request to know what city I live in. I haven’t shared that online. If I were speaking or writing with you privately, I’d be happy to tell you, but I’m not ready to share that with the whole online world.
So you’re a Navy kid and an Aggie. You said Florida California and Hawaii, so I have to assume maybe Pensacola, San Diego, and Pearl Harbor, something like that. I didn’t know the Navy had anything in Modesto, the closest thing I can think of is Mare Island, now closed, and Lemoore NAS, that’s a long way from Modesto. I’ve seen most of the western states professionally, so there’s hardly a town I don’t know until you get into Nebraska or Texas.
I deliver food, and my company has contracts with the military. We deliver to the commissaries on all the military bases in California and into Nevada and Arizona, including everything in the San Diego area.
My dad was too young to serve in the German military, but he joined the US Army after coming here and then was stationed in Germany of course, you could see that coming. The German-born man kept being stationed back there. He was a civilian, a banker, when our family moved there, that was my teens.
Current events and politics:
I am ignorant about the details of the filibuster. My wife and a lot of more informed people here on HCR and op-ed journalists have strong opinions, but I plead ignorance.
I also know almost nothing about gerrymandering except what I have read in news articles, so I’ve never done any real research. I have heard about democratic election manipulation, but only hearsay, like JFK in Richard Daley’s Chicago. Everything I have read in the past few years about gerrymandering benefits the old order society, the status quo, which these days is the Republicans. I have not seen a gerrymandering story in the news in the 21st Century, or a story about voter suppression legislation, which does not target people of color or the younger generation that tends to vote Democratic. In other words, I have yet to see reports of a gerrymandered state that benefits a Democratic Party voting machine. The gerrymandering in California that was eliminated after the 2010 census was all favoring Republican hegemony. When that artificial construct was removed, and fair district lines were established, within 8 years even Orange County went blue, although they’ve gone back to purple now in 2020.
Is there evidence of gerrymandering and voter suppression which benefits not the Republicans but the Democrats? If so, I haven’t seen it. Just saying.
“. . . the way the statement constantly resonates here bothers me and I feel someone has to challenge it. I could be totally wrong, but Group Think without any challenges don't work for me.”
Well, welcome to the club. If this was a Group Think environment with clique mentality, I’d be long gone. There happens to be a lot of agreement, perhaps that looks at first glance like groupthink or cult think. But these people, the lion’s share, are far too deeply educated and experienced to just go along with what somebody else says because it sounds acceptable. You’ve heard the expression “herding cats.” That’s why I like this group: independent thinkers.
Final thought: respect. Ending the uncivil war. TPJ getting his buttons pushed by you is a first. I had not seen that happen to him, so your spat with him got my attention. He is the life of the party, great sense of humor, smart as a whip, incredibly well read. Everybody being civil and courteous with everybody else here is the norm. Not always, mind you, but the norm. Your tiff stands out because it’s uncommon.
The hatred you saw in Bosnia is certainly not evident in this group. Far from it. On the contrary, I have been in dozens of discussions about bridging the divide. People are highly highly conscious of that here.
Not long ago, Jim Mattis became a hero. I bought a book and read it. I have a character in my sci-fi future-society brighter-world story project based in part on Jim. You are the only person I know who is a military veteran in that mold. If you don’t mind, I would like to use you occasionally to help develop that character in my story. I like realism. I’ve read a fair amount of Tom Clancy, but I have zero experience in the military. So having you as a reference source would be very helpful, if you are so inclined.
OK, I said I like you, now we’re just learning about the details. Thanks again for the long letter and for investing all that time, I learned a hell of a lot about you, and I like everything I’m reading.
Enjoy your day, hope your wife and kids are doing well.
Roland, glad I the post didn't bore you or turn you off.
From what I seen in the group is exactly how you describe it. Educated, articulate, concerned. And, right now, I get the anger with Republicans. Hell I'm helping to paddle the boat in my own way, as you are. Maybe a better analogy for the First report, and more fitting is the Russian Proverb that Reagan used, "Trust, but verify." That's all.
It was because of the statements about how Republicans win elections that caused me to verify. Went to the Brennan Justice Center and they're a good resource on gerrymandering if you're so inclined to look. But, it's not as prevalent as its being touted here. The fact that HR1 is calling for independent commissions is a huge step in the right direction. It will set up other issues that need to be addressed. But, I don't want to delve into them here.
As for voter suppression, on the surface one can argue that these bills are targeted at young people, people of color, etc. The stories reported on the cable commentary networks (in alpha order - CNN, Fox, MSNBC, maybe some others) are the ones who make the claims about voter suppression and voter fraud, etc. Which is why I rarely watch them now to get a flavor of the BS being spread. Mind you, not all of it is BS, but when I hear something that doesn't resonate, I check it out. Personally, I think what Georgia does in limiting polling places where people are required to stand in line for hours is appalling, immoral, and unjustifiable. But you have to respect and give credit to those who stood and waited.
Group think - point well taken.
I read TPJ's other comments. Many times I agree, some I don't. What the hey, who died and said I know it all. I enjoy reading it because it gives me a different perspective. Frankly, I was surprised at his response, especially the part that its history and Dems are better today. That may we be, but like you and I saw in Germany visiting Dachau, if you don't keep that history to the forefront, its soon forgotten, and abuses begin again.
Which is why I like reading HCR's material when she references history. As I understand it, she's an expert on the history of the Republican Party. Haven't read her book, but do enjoy how she's laid out the Party's change since the election of Reagan. Important stuff to remember.
Finally, you're a writer too. Sci-fi. I do historical mysteries, mystery suspense, some thriller. Will be glad to give you a perspective of a "military mindset" but the good news life changes and so do people in the military.
And I'll ask for a favor in return. I've been working on a book about German POWs in the US during World War 2. Have read tons of material and some personal diaries, etc. The intent of my story is reflect why Germans followed Hitler and saw him as the "savior" so to speak. But I don't feel I'm getting the German character's attitudes correct. Would you be willing to read a sample chapter or two and give me your perspective and what your grandmother, dad might say?
Thanks for asking about the wife and kids. We're all doing well. Hopefully, your family is well too.
And thanks for being a truck driver. It is part of the nation's lifeline and people tend to forget the important role you serve. It is as critical to day as the railroads were in WW2. Infact, I hazard to guess you wouldn't be allowed to serve in the military in a crisis due to your importance to keeping the goods moving. Hope that made sense.
Larry: A history reading suggestion to get a feel of the pre-Civil War society as well as during the War for both North and South, including politics, economy, society etc is "Battle Cry of Freedom" by Dr James McPherson. It's a comprehensive look @ those times.
Yes of course, Larry, that makes perfect sense to me. I understand completely. I’d be happy to read your German POW material and give you their (likely) perspective. I think you would find it valuable, based on what you’ve told me. I’m probably an unusual resource, because I can tune in and let you know how the Germans experienced it. I live near a military base that had a German POW facility: I’ll mention it later. If you want to exchange email addresses, you can either leave your address here, or click on my profile picture to go to my Substack page and subscribe to it. That way I would get your email address privately, without anyone else seeing. If you post it here, of course I’ll get it but it would potentially be accessible to someone rummaging around. When I get your email address I’ll send you a quick email and you can send me the POW stuff you want me to review.
Right now, the conversation we are having is not likely to be found by most people, they would have to dig to even know that we were having a conversation. But if Substack ever produces a search feature, for example searching on your name or my name, everything we are now posting might become easily accessible. So I don’t suggest posting an email address here unless you feel comfortable giving it to the world. Yes my family is doing well right now, thank goodness. OK talk to you soon.
I’m in the middle of something right now for my story project, not quite ready to read German POW material, but I will definitely get back to you. Be patient with me if you would be so kind. In the mean time, here’s one of the other 2 on-line places I spend time. Lucian Truscott just posted this article and of course I thought of you. Enjoy.
2) You can disparage 45 all you want. I wholeheartedly think he betrayed the country, that he was instrumental in inciting much of the white supremacist behavior, and that he's into this for himself, more than the country. Look at his branding issue. I share your sentiments exactly.
3) I was in Scouting, but never got beyond 1st Class. More power to you.
Please do not apologize for the long post. I am a writer, I get into things intensely and deeply. I take a long time to write. I do this because I love it. And I love reading what you have written. It’s all music to my ears.
Hello Larry. I’m not in a great position right now to give your post the respect it deserves. I’m on the road working, driving truck, with my little iPhone. I think I had to scroll down 12 to 15 times just to read your entire post. For now, I will say this: I am glad that you are being honest about where you stand, and I accept your challenge of providing evidence and reasonable counter arguments to your points. But you’ll have to wait. I’ll give you just one small teaser: is there proof that removing gerrymandering sidelines Republican politicians? No, of course not. I’m not sure it’s provable. However, there is excellent evidence that a goodbye to gerrymandering means a goodbye to Republican power. In California after the 2010 census, a citizens group redistricted the entire state. Lots of public scrutiny of the entire process, tremendous amount of data and information brought to bear to decide exactly where to draw the lines. Widespread public approval of the process. In 2018, out of 53 California House districts, only 7 Republican House members. After 2020 election, I believe 12 Republican House members out of 53. Super majorities in both state legislatures. In California, the republican party as a political force is neutered, an endangered species. Still millions and millions of Republican citizens, just no political power. OK back to work. Thank you for engaging, I’ll get back to you.
"The Democratic Party has a longer history of disenfranchisement of voting and other rights"
So what?? That was then, this is now. It's tedious to listen to folks who can't, or won't, distinguish between the Dems of the 1850s or Jim Crow era, and the contemporary Party. It is literally ignorant, i.e. ignor-ant, a deliberate choice to remain uninformed by disregarding facts. After the VRA in 1965, southern Dem vote suppressors migrated to the GOP where they found a hearty welcome. They've spent 50 years perfecting the suppression strategy and STILL won't cease and desist.
Another crucial difference today is that the GQP seeks, not to control or limit democracy, but to destroy it. The mob of filthy, seditious insurrectionists who stormed the Capitol was overwhelmingly Repuglycan; they will wear that badge of dishonor for eternity. It's not necessary to reprise their dismal litany of illegal and unconstitutional actions under Der Pu$$enGropenFuhrer, but anyone who doesn't see the pattern is ignor-ant. Dems have never had anything like the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy Hillary identified many years ago. Now, excuse me, I'm off to burn the Confederate flag in public.
E Foner, The Story of American Freedom
A Keyssar, The Right to Vote
L Litwack, Trouble in Mind
D White, To Heavy a Load
I think you missed my point about the problem of one party domination. HCR referred to the time period, not I. And that period was lead by Democrats. I had written more, but chose to delete it.
As for the so what of history, perhaps Foner's 2017 interview in the Nation can shed some light.
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/trump-is-just-tearing-off-the-mask-an-interview-with-eric-foner/
I don't deal in abstractions. National one-party rule is an abstraction, far less important than the actual, concrete results of GQP voter suppression and gerrymandering -- the product of one-party domination of red states. Dr Foner is a friendly acquaintance whose work is very familiar to me. Anyone can rummage through his oeuvre to find something that might support their views, especially from an interview which carries less weight than written publications. But his entire career shows that the large majority of his thought runs counter to yours.
I wrote a long reply, posted it, and then deleted it.
First, as I see it, you are dealing in abstractions now. You, and others, have yet to prove that the GOP gerrymanders and that their success in "red" states is a result of such a charge. More importantly, you and others make it sound that Dems have never engaged in such activity. More importantly, as this inane threat started, it's based on an opinion that will be spread as truth. I only pointed out the facts and reassert what HCR stated, one party domination is wrong. We saw it with the Southern Democrats in the South for nearly 100 years. Your better argument would have been, right, but we've learned our lessons and are trying to change.
Second, I've read Dr. Foner's work. Agree with some, not sure I accept other points of view. But, I do agree that we need a usable history to make progress at working towards the goals of our Constitution. Maybe we should adopt the high school requirements of the Germans. Make our students visit slave housings on a plantation or German/Italian/Japanese internment camps (built during the Democratic Presidencies of Wilson and Roosevelt) or walk the streets of disadvantaged neighborhoods/slums/jails/battlefields where Native Americans died, etc. Maybe then they'll realize what our history is really like and make an effort to do better.
Third, and final point, I believe we need to start looking for common ground versus the great divide we now endure. It's hard work, but it needs to be done. And, I believe President Biden's call to end this Uncivil War, one that both parties share in the blame, must be started. That doesn't mean rolling over and playing dead. But, it does mean listening to what others say. Dems hold the national power now. If they want to continue to and disrupt the trend of mid-term elections, the party needs to find a common ground to bring Republicans into their camp. Calling them the GQP isn't it.
Hi Larry.
Damn, I wish I had your post from yesterday.
Ok, on the gerrymandering question, I already mentioned California's history, that's all I know. End of story. The other experts here will have to engage you, and by now, they are reading the current HCR discussion. This page is old news.
I am of the opinion that the Southern Democrat Party bears little or no relation to the modern Democratic Party, but here again, Dr. Richardson or TPJ or Stuart or someone else will have to step in. In Lincoln's election, it was more like Europe is today, a multi-party system instead of a 2-party system, with 4 viable parties competing for representation in the WH. Somehow Lincoln won the election in what I have seen called in California a "jungle" election, which is a free-for-all, with everyone on the same ballot and not separate ballots like a primary election. The Southern Democrats became the party of the KKK, as disaffected Southerners, because it was the party of Southerners to begin with. Then somehow the Southern Democrats became merged with the Democrats, or changed names, I don't know, then LBJ and the Voting Rights Act drove them to the Republican Party.
I've never read Dr. Foner. That's between you and TPJ.
Of course I am in complete agreement with your statement about the high school requirements of the Germans. As far as I'm concerned, getting American high school students out of the classroom and into the field would give them education and knowledge they sorely lack.
Your final point about common ground: of course I agree completely, why else are you and I here having this conversation. I have had my father all my life, and I have engaged (albeit to a limited degree) in his social circle for decades, so I am accustomed to engagement and finding common ground. He and I love each other, even though we have so little in common, as it turns out, politically and socially. But nevertheless common ground is there, kindness, civility, generosity, mutual respect, there is plenty to recommend my father. People rave about him to me all the time.
I have received a bit of blowback, nothing serious but noticeable, here on HCR and elsewhere for taking what are apparently controversial positions. To your point: I think Adam Kinzinger, Ben Sasse, Mitt Romney voting for impeachment the 1st time, and other Republicans I could name, make a lot of sense, and they get my respect. Not my approval necessarily, not my undying love, but my respect. Even McConnell, whose methods I despise, has come out against the criminal Trump.
I hope you are ok with me disparaging 45, because this guy is so dirty in so many ways that it's impossible to keep track. He will need a presidential library just to contain all the evidence. Greg Olear on Substack has done numerous deep dive investigations, and nothing that comes out is ever pretty. Often, when the context is pertinent, I write his name as Tя☭mp because of his partnership with Putin. Remember them in Helsinki? Finland is kinda, sorta, in the Russian sphere of influence. From the Russian point of view, Finland is neutral ground, a fitting place for that meeting. Did we ever think we'd see a president who is friends with the leader of Russia? There is also sex crimes, there is NYC mob history (real estate related), there is financial corruption, each of these categories will require an entire wing in his presidential library.
Dr. Heather Cox Richardson tends to limit herself to what she knows, she has made that very clear, which means U.S. history. Russia is not her area of knowledge or expertise, so she stays on firm ground. However, I do not run this web site, I am not a respected historian with a reputation to uphold, I am merely a student, so I can speak as I please. These named Republicans care about the democracy enough, and are unswayed by the current anti-democratic tide enough, to get my tacit approval. My father voted for Mitt Romney back when he was running against Obama. I would have a conversation with Larry Hogan or Ben Sasse in a heartbeat. They might not get my vote if I were in their district, but hey, they would probably get my dad's vote.
Personally, I don't find it offensive to call the GOP the "GQP." However, I want to set the table with you, and that conversation is quite a bit more controversial than what we have been discussing, so I'll table it for now. I will say this: I do not identify as a Democrat. I may vote Democrat, but that's it, I do not affiliate with parties, although I could call myself a Green, which, curiously and ironically, appeared in Bavaria, the home of my heritage. If the Democratic Party started attracting racists and anti-Semites to its cause, I would disown them in a heartbeat. The man with the shirt that says "Camp Auschwitz" on the front and "Staff" on the back is not my friend. My wife saw that in real time, on TV, on January 6. She is half Jewish, her maternal relatives were wiped out of their town in what is now Belarus by the Germans. That's just an aside, but it's pertinent because it refreshes my other point, that these genteel words in print on HCR's web page may seem divorced from the real world, but they are not. Anti-Semitism wasted millions of lives. I have relatives who fought and died on what Nazi Germany called "the Eastern front," when Russians and eastern Europeans were considered subhumans. So blood is at stake here. Lives at are stake.
Speaking for myself, a party that coddles and takes in money and support from that demographic is not going to make me smile or make me just walk away.
In closing, Larry, I just want to say I am not conflict averse. I have defused tensions here. Not always successfully, but that seems to be my role, much more than being a source of history knowledge. So you can bring up anything with me that you like, anything. I can handle it. If I don't know enough, if my resources are insufficient, I will say so. I am that guy who runs counter to the stereotype: I use maps. I get directions. I read the instructions. I rely on resources and information, and I'm not shy about it. But I also don't accept information blindly, I am acutely aware of the reliability of a source, and even then, you have to remain cautious. For example, I am very skeptical of giving a political news TV show the name "Reliable Sources." Come on. If you just believe what people tell you, you deserve the consequences of being a misguided fool. That's how the Russians view DT, by the way, "a useful fool," a tool.
I stand on firm ground in certain areas, and when I do, you will have to use convincing arguments to get me to agree.
Good talking to you.
Hope your experience here in Dr. Richardson's subscriber community goes more smoothly from now on.
Enjoy the rest of your day and week. My best to you and your family.
Roland
Hello again Larry! I'm at home, on my laptop, I can actually follow the discussion much more easily because of the much larger screen. It's snowing where I live in rural mountainous California, I'm not working tomorrow, perfect time to get back to you. Van Morrison is on Pandora, my wife is playing something called the J.J. Cale music channel, Lord knows what that is, but I love the songs that are playing. We just finished watching latest episode of To Tell The Truth, with Anthony Anderson and his mom Doris.
I am setting a scene to let you know I am a real person. You gave us a ton of information about yourself, but unfortunately I don't have access to it now: I'm sorry you deleted your post, it had a wealth of information. Normally we don't delete posts here, even with errors, we just correct in an add-on post. If I'd known this would happen, I would have copied and stored your words.
Since we are getting to know each other, a few things about me that most of the people here already know: I am 62. White, male and straight. That's important, it turns out, when we are discussing U.S. politics. I am not a FB or Tw or social media user, opposed to the business model. This forum is my first on-line community. Otherwise Greg Olear and Lucian Truscott on Substack, TC referred me to Lucian, and we have text groups in my family, that's it.
My parents were born in Germany and my dad in particular had a front-row seat for the entire Hitler administration, because he is from Munich. Our family lived in Germany in my teens, I knew my pro-Hitler grandmother, visited the paternal childhood home often, visited Dachau once, so I have some education with that period. All my heritage is German. I speak German, and am something of a linguist, certainly a better linguist than historian. I am the first in my immediate family born in this country, 2nd overall behind my 1st cousin Mike, my parents met in San Francisco and had me there. Public school in SF and the metro area, later graduated from a civilian school with an American high school diploma in Germany, college in southern California, engineering degree, Eagle Scout (you can take the boy out of Scouting, but you can't take Scouting out of the man), yada yada yada.
Not a historian, rely on the wealth and depth of knowledge here in this group, and trust me, it is extensive. I do not recommend underestimating that depth of knowledge, TPJ for example is a working history teacher in Boston, Linda Mitchell another history expert, TCinLA (I call him "TC") 20thC and WW2 and military and beyond expert, and the list goes on and on . . .
I am surmising you have been a Republican for a long time, perhaps are now, based on your post. My father is a diehard German-born conservative, and once he arrived in this country, lifetime Republican. Votes like clockwork, watches Fox and reads WSJ regularly. Drives me crazy my entire life, this month I have finally figured him out.
It has taken me a lifetime to discover who I am politically and socially. My wife is from southern California and moved to the SF area as soon as she could, but she could easily have been born in Berkeley, and in fact she lived next-door in Oakland for decades. Some of her closest friends are Cal grads. Her parents are actual Communists. Had to change lifestyle during Joe McCarthy years. Union organizer parents, mom with social worker degree from UCLA, believed in the ideal of communism until disillusioned by the Soviet Union and then abandoned it.
I didn't meet my wife knowing about her politics, that showed up later. I met her in a personal growth environment, what my dad would derisively call a hippie setting.
In context of a recent HCR discussion about Christianity, I found myself posting about my Christian pedigree. I didn't even know I had a Christian pedigree until a few weeks ago. Father raised Roman Catholic in Bavaria, where Josef Ratzinger, the last pope, is from. Went to Sunday School as an elementary school age kid. Even applied to Yale Divinity School in my 20s and got offered full ride scholarship, but changed my mind and took a different direction, aviation technology program. Learned mechanical stuff, machines and engines and aircraft and autos.
I have had more jobs than I can remember, my C.V. would run on for 10 to 20 pages. Transportation and psychology are the biggest themes. Very briefly aviation mechanic, 6 years limo and van driver, and for the last 23 years, trucking, so that's over 30 years in transport.
On this forum, I am testing out my knowledge of politics and society and U.S. history like never before. I'm no dummy, I was first (in my class of just 44) in H.S., but didn't take any history or politics in college, and my WW2 and Nazi Germany knowledge is self-taught.
Most of what I know about U.S. politics I learned in the past 12 months here on HCR and by reading the news. I defer to others constantly. Until now, spurned politics.
Ok, now to your post.
Roland
Hey Roland, Nice to meet you. This is a long response it seems.
It's now 10:00 am, and I started at 6:30 am, but have had plenty of rewrites so as to keep this reasonably short and entertaining/informative as yours is.
First, I'm soon to be 70, and would be outwardly characterized as a WASP, though my internal character is a product of being a Navy brat, college degreed, long time married with two daughters, and a 43 year governmental career. First a 28 year career in the Army, 2 year stint in the 70s with Carnation Sales force in San Leandro, and upon military retirement, 14 years in county government in Washington State.
As a youth, lived in Florida, California, Hawaii. Went to high school and junior college in Modesto, transferred to UC Davis in 1971 for last two years. Had gotten my "Greetings letter" as a sophomore, entered ROTC to "evade" the draft. Got an 18 months scholarship which incurred a 4 obligation on active duty. The four years ended up being 28, 2 of it reserve, and I retired in 2001.
Had a successful Army career. Got promoted on time, got to command at all levels, got to serve on staffs at the National/International level, went to key Army schools that are more "open" to differing points of view than many liberal or conservative big name colleges, etc. In short, can't complain.
Upon retirement, went to work in county government in Washington State (blue state). On state and national elections, one county leaned Republican, the other Democrat. At the local level, both parties had representation on the Board of Commissioners. My job was Director level, one point being a County Administrator, so I had the opportunity to see party politics.
Add to this mix is I married the rancher's daughter. Her parents were first generation American, family came from the Netherlands. Very conservative, Republicans. (My family was Democrat but we never discussed politics due to Dad's Navy career and politics wasn't discussed in military communities or around the table.) So my education came from college and my in-laws dealings with the rising regulations regarding ag, etc. Then I went in the Army, and politics was off in the distance.
Being in the military, I lived with, served with, and served under people of color and women. We all have biases, but I will say that I've focused on checking mine because I know systematic racism exists, see it being countered with promotion floors for people of color and women, while in the Army. Some would say the cop out was everyone's green. But, at some point it becomes true. I didn't care what they looked like or what their gender was, I cared if they put their talent to work as part of the team. And, I made sure that my evaluation reports reflected their best qualities so they'd be competitive. And, I can honestly say, that they most of them had highly successful careers and I only a part of it.
It is based on this background I make my comments. In high school and college I debated. Here I was forced to present evidence. In my Army career, you had to present facts and analysis, as I had to in local government when developing policy positions for commissioners that would have to be translated into county codes.
Some lessons I learned in the military that have guided me well.
1) The first report is always wrong and unless challenged gets a life of its own. Thus, I have an aversion to blatant sound bites that are either outright lies or misdirection. Case in point, Republicans can only win elections through gerrymandering and voter suppression. All I'm asking is the evidence is that proves it.
The issue of voter suppression is a bit more complicated and warrants research. Why is there a spate of bills being introduced across the country? It's easy to point the finger and say Republican legislators are trying stop people from voting versus trying to fix loops holes or clarify legislation to ensure election integrity. Why is Trump able to promote the Big Lie? Why was Pennsylvania in the news? My take is that Democrats circumvented the legislature, went to court and eventually the State Supreme Court ruled that votes could be counted if received by 5 pm on Friday regardless of postmark time and date. The US Supreme Court agreed the votes could be counted, but those ballots had to meet the state law regarding postmark. If you're a Republican legislator, how would you feel/react. But, the way the statement constantly resonates here bothers me and I feel someone has to challenge it. I could be totally wrong, but Group Think without any challenges don't work for me.
2) Respect the individual and their opinion. They probably know something you don't.
In the early 1980s, the Army adopted a set of values. One of them is Respect. I may not agree with your opinion, but, I shouldn't attack you with insults for that point of view. For example to say that the 74 million Americans who voted for Trump are QAnon believers, or they support voter suppression, or whatever is pure .... Where's the respect in that? But, to call out Trump and those engaged in criminal insurrection is a fact. To be angry with them is a fact. To have distain with them is a fact because we saw it happen or there is evidence to the same.
3. Equality means a level playing field and the rules need to apply to all equally. You can't change them in the middle of the game. While the discussion about filibustering is warranted, it's ridiculous to claim Republicans are ignoring the "people's" will for using the very same tools Democrats used l during the Trump Administration's effort to get legislation passed that people wanted, i.e. a stimulus round two starting in July.
4. The mark of good leader isn't the fact they have a problem, but how they solve the problem. Which is why I think President Biden will regarded as a great leader in the future. He gets it. He's built a team of qualified and experience people who know how government works - politically and administratively. It's going to be rough going but he needs people like this group to help.
HCR and others can help by focusing on what President Biden asked Americans to do - end this uncivil war.
Political polarization is real. And, its gotten worse since the 1990s. Both parties and social media, despite its good intentions, are to blame.
While people are angry and want to vent is understandable, at some point it nothing more than reinforcing a hatred that I saw in Bosnia. There is a time to stop, let it go, move forward. Dems have a golden opportunity ahead. They aren't going to win votes by calling Republicans GQP, ignorant, etc. Look how deplorables worked out for Hillary.
Roland I apologize for this long email. I've written and rewritten it several times. Need to stop.
Thanks for sharing your insights and background. It helps me. I hope this helps you see where I'm coming from as well.
Finally, what rural California community do you live in?
Have a great day.
Hi Larry!
I am very pleased with your response. Just the fact that we are talking tells me you are a person of substance and character. So far, I see places where we put different priorities on certain items, but I see no points of disagreement. None.
I read and reread your letter several times. Suffice to say you have my complete respect. I should mention, to your first point about the first draft being always wrong, that this forum is populated with a lot of experienced, grounded people. A lot of old fogeys like you and me. This is not a flaky group, not by a long shot. Your presence here is proof enough, but you should see some of the backgrounds that these people have. It’s impressive. Just in passing, I’ll mention that there is an author here who has written 40+ books on World War II history and the military. That is not an isolated example. Lots of historians, teachers, smart solid people. Less experienced people too, but excellent character and good values offsets the inexperience. I like them. And I like you. I have high standards, so those words do not come easily out of my mouth. I don’t just like everybody who agrees with me, it doesn’t work that way. I actually don’t like most people, for example truck drivers and office people. I love them, they’re humans, we’re in the same boat, we are cut from the same cloth, but that doesn’t mean I like them. I have rarely been disappointed here. Just saying. You won’t find much lockstep, knee-jerk liberalism here.
You don’t have to apologize, at least not to me, for the length of your letter. After all, I was the one who said “damn I wish I had your original letter that you deleted.“ Thank you very much for the full report, I do appreciate the time, 3 1/2 hours is a long writing block.
The only thing in your letter that gave me a slight pause is your request to know what city I live in. I haven’t shared that online. If I were speaking or writing with you privately, I’d be happy to tell you, but I’m not ready to share that with the whole online world.
So you’re a Navy kid and an Aggie. You said Florida California and Hawaii, so I have to assume maybe Pensacola, San Diego, and Pearl Harbor, something like that. I didn’t know the Navy had anything in Modesto, the closest thing I can think of is Mare Island, now closed, and Lemoore NAS, that’s a long way from Modesto. I’ve seen most of the western states professionally, so there’s hardly a town I don’t know until you get into Nebraska or Texas.
I deliver food, and my company has contracts with the military. We deliver to the commissaries on all the military bases in California and into Nevada and Arizona, including everything in the San Diego area.
My dad was too young to serve in the German military, but he joined the US Army after coming here and then was stationed in Germany of course, you could see that coming. The German-born man kept being stationed back there. He was a civilian, a banker, when our family moved there, that was my teens.
Current events and politics:
I am ignorant about the details of the filibuster. My wife and a lot of more informed people here on HCR and op-ed journalists have strong opinions, but I plead ignorance.
I also know almost nothing about gerrymandering except what I have read in news articles, so I’ve never done any real research. I have heard about democratic election manipulation, but only hearsay, like JFK in Richard Daley’s Chicago. Everything I have read in the past few years about gerrymandering benefits the old order society, the status quo, which these days is the Republicans. I have not seen a gerrymandering story in the news in the 21st Century, or a story about voter suppression legislation, which does not target people of color or the younger generation that tends to vote Democratic. In other words, I have yet to see reports of a gerrymandered state that benefits a Democratic Party voting machine. The gerrymandering in California that was eliminated after the 2010 census was all favoring Republican hegemony. When that artificial construct was removed, and fair district lines were established, within 8 years even Orange County went blue, although they’ve gone back to purple now in 2020.
Is there evidence of gerrymandering and voter suppression which benefits not the Republicans but the Democrats? If so, I haven’t seen it. Just saying.
“. . . the way the statement constantly resonates here bothers me and I feel someone has to challenge it. I could be totally wrong, but Group Think without any challenges don't work for me.”
Well, welcome to the club. If this was a Group Think environment with clique mentality, I’d be long gone. There happens to be a lot of agreement, perhaps that looks at first glance like groupthink or cult think. But these people, the lion’s share, are far too deeply educated and experienced to just go along with what somebody else says because it sounds acceptable. You’ve heard the expression “herding cats.” That’s why I like this group: independent thinkers.
Final thought: respect. Ending the uncivil war. TPJ getting his buttons pushed by you is a first. I had not seen that happen to him, so your spat with him got my attention. He is the life of the party, great sense of humor, smart as a whip, incredibly well read. Everybody being civil and courteous with everybody else here is the norm. Not always, mind you, but the norm. Your tiff stands out because it’s uncommon.
The hatred you saw in Bosnia is certainly not evident in this group. Far from it. On the contrary, I have been in dozens of discussions about bridging the divide. People are highly highly conscious of that here.
Not long ago, Jim Mattis became a hero. I bought a book and read it. I have a character in my sci-fi future-society brighter-world story project based in part on Jim. You are the only person I know who is a military veteran in that mold. If you don’t mind, I would like to use you occasionally to help develop that character in my story. I like realism. I’ve read a fair amount of Tom Clancy, but I have zero experience in the military. So having you as a reference source would be very helpful, if you are so inclined.
OK, I said I like you, now we’re just learning about the details. Thanks again for the long letter and for investing all that time, I learned a hell of a lot about you, and I like everything I’m reading.
Enjoy your day, hope your wife and kids are doing well.
Roland
Roland, glad I the post didn't bore you or turn you off.
From what I seen in the group is exactly how you describe it. Educated, articulate, concerned. And, right now, I get the anger with Republicans. Hell I'm helping to paddle the boat in my own way, as you are. Maybe a better analogy for the First report, and more fitting is the Russian Proverb that Reagan used, "Trust, but verify." That's all.
It was because of the statements about how Republicans win elections that caused me to verify. Went to the Brennan Justice Center and they're a good resource on gerrymandering if you're so inclined to look. But, it's not as prevalent as its being touted here. The fact that HR1 is calling for independent commissions is a huge step in the right direction. It will set up other issues that need to be addressed. But, I don't want to delve into them here.
As for voter suppression, on the surface one can argue that these bills are targeted at young people, people of color, etc. The stories reported on the cable commentary networks (in alpha order - CNN, Fox, MSNBC, maybe some others) are the ones who make the claims about voter suppression and voter fraud, etc. Which is why I rarely watch them now to get a flavor of the BS being spread. Mind you, not all of it is BS, but when I hear something that doesn't resonate, I check it out. Personally, I think what Georgia does in limiting polling places where people are required to stand in line for hours is appalling, immoral, and unjustifiable. But you have to respect and give credit to those who stood and waited.
Group think - point well taken.
I read TPJ's other comments. Many times I agree, some I don't. What the hey, who died and said I know it all. I enjoy reading it because it gives me a different perspective. Frankly, I was surprised at his response, especially the part that its history and Dems are better today. That may we be, but like you and I saw in Germany visiting Dachau, if you don't keep that history to the forefront, its soon forgotten, and abuses begin again.
Which is why I like reading HCR's material when she references history. As I understand it, she's an expert on the history of the Republican Party. Haven't read her book, but do enjoy how she's laid out the Party's change since the election of Reagan. Important stuff to remember.
Finally, you're a writer too. Sci-fi. I do historical mysteries, mystery suspense, some thriller. Will be glad to give you a perspective of a "military mindset" but the good news life changes and so do people in the military.
And I'll ask for a favor in return. I've been working on a book about German POWs in the US during World War 2. Have read tons of material and some personal diaries, etc. The intent of my story is reflect why Germans followed Hitler and saw him as the "savior" so to speak. But I don't feel I'm getting the German character's attitudes correct. Would you be willing to read a sample chapter or two and give me your perspective and what your grandmother, dad might say?
Thanks for asking about the wife and kids. We're all doing well. Hopefully, your family is well too.
And thanks for being a truck driver. It is part of the nation's lifeline and people tend to forget the important role you serve. It is as critical to day as the railroads were in WW2. Infact, I hazard to guess you wouldn't be allowed to serve in the military in a crisis due to your importance to keeping the goods moving. Hope that made sense.
Chat soon.
Larry: A history reading suggestion to get a feel of the pre-Civil War society as well as during the War for both North and South, including politics, economy, society etc is "Battle Cry of Freedom" by Dr James McPherson. It's a comprehensive look @ those times.
Barbara, thanks. Read it some time ago when I was in the Army and at the War College for a class. Really enjoyed it.
Yes of course, Larry, that makes perfect sense to me. I understand completely. I’d be happy to read your German POW material and give you their (likely) perspective. I think you would find it valuable, based on what you’ve told me. I’m probably an unusual resource, because I can tune in and let you know how the Germans experienced it. I live near a military base that had a German POW facility: I’ll mention it later. If you want to exchange email addresses, you can either leave your address here, or click on my profile picture to go to my Substack page and subscribe to it. That way I would get your email address privately, without anyone else seeing. If you post it here, of course I’ll get it but it would potentially be accessible to someone rummaging around. When I get your email address I’ll send you a quick email and you can send me the POW stuff you want me to review.
Right now, the conversation we are having is not likely to be found by most people, they would have to dig to even know that we were having a conversation. But if Substack ever produces a search feature, for example searching on your name or my name, everything we are now posting might become easily accessible. So I don’t suggest posting an email address here unless you feel comfortable giving it to the world. Yes my family is doing well right now, thank goodness. OK talk to you soon.
Roland
Signed up on your substack page
I’m in the middle of something right now for my story project, not quite ready to read German POW material, but I will definitely get back to you. Be patient with me if you would be so kind. In the mean time, here’s one of the other 2 on-line places I spend time. Lucian Truscott just posted this article and of course I thought of you. Enjoy.
https://luciantruscott.substack.com/p/tucker-carlson-should-shut-the-hell
Roland, couple more things.
1) Like you, I vote the candidate than the Party.
2) You can disparage 45 all you want. I wholeheartedly think he betrayed the country, that he was instrumental in inciting much of the white supremacist behavior, and that he's into this for himself, more than the country. Look at his branding issue. I share your sentiments exactly.
3) I was in Scouting, but never got beyond 1st Class. More power to you.
Again, sorry for the long post.
Please do not apologize for the long post. I am a writer, I get into things intensely and deeply. I take a long time to write. I do this because I love it. And I love reading what you have written. It’s all music to my ears.
Oh my. Hey TC, check this out, TPJ’s fuse got lit on your watch.
I’m giving TC the credit, semi-facetiously. Nobody has to agree with that.
Tom, love your passion. 🙏❤️😊❤️
Nice work holding your ground Larry Keeton. Keep up the good work.
Thanks Roland.
Thank YOU
Hello Larry. I’m not in a great position right now to give your post the respect it deserves. I’m on the road working, driving truck, with my little iPhone. I think I had to scroll down 12 to 15 times just to read your entire post. For now, I will say this: I am glad that you are being honest about where you stand, and I accept your challenge of providing evidence and reasonable counter arguments to your points. But you’ll have to wait. I’ll give you just one small teaser: is there proof that removing gerrymandering sidelines Republican politicians? No, of course not. I’m not sure it’s provable. However, there is excellent evidence that a goodbye to gerrymandering means a goodbye to Republican power. In California after the 2010 census, a citizens group redistricted the entire state. Lots of public scrutiny of the entire process, tremendous amount of data and information brought to bear to decide exactly where to draw the lines. Widespread public approval of the process. In 2018, out of 53 California House districts, only 7 Republican House members. After 2020 election, I believe 12 Republican House members out of 53. Super majorities in both state legislatures. In California, the republican party as a political force is neutered, an endangered species. Still millions and millions of Republican citizens, just no political power. OK back to work. Thank you for engaging, I’ll get back to you.