President Biden was prepared for a DEBATE, and he forgot that the individual he faced is a "street fighter." Trump hurls accusations, falsehoods, wants you to think HE is the answer to his fake lies. We cannot desert Biden, we must work even more diligently. Come on people! A convicted felon, rapist, fake leader, attempted to denigrate o…
President Biden was prepared for a DEBATE, and he forgot that the individual he faced is a "street fighter." Trump hurls accusations, falsehoods, wants you to think HE is the answer to his fake lies. We cannot desert Biden, we must work even more diligently. Come on people! A convicted felon, rapist, fake leader, attempted to denigrate one of the best leaders we have had in years. IS IT NOVEMBER YET?
The 𝐆𝐢𝐬𝐡 𝐆𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐨𝐩 is a rhetorical technique in which a person in a debate attempts to overwhelm their opponent by providing an excessive number of arguments with no regard for the accuracy or strength of those arguments. (Wikipedia)
During a Gish Gallop, a debater confronts an opponent with a rapid series of specious arguments, half-truths, misrepresentations, and outright lies in a short space of time, which makes it impossible for the opponent to refute all of them within the format of a formal debate.
Each point raised by the Gish Galloper takes considerably more time to refute or fact-check than it did to state in the first place, which is known as 𝐁𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐝𝐨𝐥𝐢𝐧𝐢'𝐬 𝐥𝐚𝐰. The technique wastes an opponent's time and even casts doubt on the opponent's debating ability for an audience unfamiliar with the technique.
𝐁𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐝𝐨𝐥𝐢𝐧𝐢'𝐬 𝐥𝐚𝐰, also known as the "bullshit asymmetry principle," is an adage coined in 2013 by Alberto Brandolini that emphasizes the effort of debunking misinformation, in comparison to the relative ease of creating it in the first place. The law states:
From the Atlantic article: Don’t expect to counter (Russia’s) firehose of falsehood with the squirt gun of truth. Instead, put raincoats on those at whom the firehose is aimed.
Putting “raincoats” on your audience means making them aware of what a Gish Galloper is subjecting them to.
Point out, for example, that the speed at which they’re speaking is a sign of deceit, not intelligence. Or even that they’re relying on a favorite tactic of the Kremlin’s.
Yeah, that’s funny, but HCR pointed out in yesterday’s letter thst there are coutntermeasres to the Gish gallop tactic and that those countermeasures are known to debate experts. Since Gish galloping is Trump’s default mode of “communication,” I find it astonishing that Biden’s aides failed to prepare him to use effective countermeasures.
Maybe if our side didn’t exile Medhi Hassan from even one hour on Saturday we may have learned something. Medhi use to school virtually anyone that challenged him. He always scored debate points in his discussions with Israeli government official Mark Regev.
I give Regev credit for his willingness to engage Medhi but it was almost always a TKO.
The Republicans never throw allies under the bus but the Dems and progressive media do and, in this cycle, we not only lost voters, we lost talent.
Lynell and Ron - your points are well taken and the Atlantic article was a masterpiece. Thank you for sharing it with us.I can only hope that this will be a central prep strategy going forward. I am a student of leadership and one quality of a good leader is hiring superb talent. Biden's age (both candidates actually) concerns me and the debate seriously concerned me but I wrote that we need to "make haste slowly", take time to assess the why and evaluate options/next steps. Too often we demand immediate responses and that is dangerous. The fact he "nailed it" the next day gave me that needed time and that hope. It also reiterates for me this central point - he hires great people - none are in jail or convicted of crimes, just like Obama's team. Trump hires poorly and like him, many are felons, liars, and "me too" opportunists who care less about the greater good for all the people. How many got pardons? It is not just Joe we are voting for, it is his team - Deb, Pete, Janet, Anthony...etc. I love riding my Harley and I am riding with Biden.
Not just a debating tactic, a domination tactic, at once keeping the herd where the boss-man wants them and reducing to silence any upstart challenger.
This is excellent stuff and could hardly be more relevant, but I have not forgotten that in 2016 the esteemed New York Times would not publish a completely neutral comment of mine, drawing attention to the explanation for the success of Hitler's oratory given to my father in 1943 by a British journalist, Wilcox by name, who, as foreign correspondent for the British newspaper News Chronicle, had covered BOTH the 1917 Revolution in Russia AND Hitler's rise to power.
I always supposed that, in its wisdom, the algorithmic censor of the NYT excluded all mention of the name Hitler.
Since, however, the explanation in question was that the would-be Führer had replaced Germany's staid oratorical tradition, grounded in the funeral oration, by wild ranting in the language of beer hall and barrack room, it did seem to me that the matter was highly relevant to the world here and now.
Now that the nation's collective psyche has been flooded with a tide of shit by our latterday misleader and acolytes, it is already too late to reverse the damage.
And the Drumpfian powers-that-be can be relied on to ensure that, even if some modern Hercules should unleash all America's great rivers from the Mississippi to the Hudson to... the Potomac... on their national Augean Stables, that would not only spread far more chemicals and excrement, it would ensure that Nature could never recover...
Foes of mankind. Foes of the Earth.
Pardon this rant, but the unmentionable disease is so foul, the very thought of it and its perpetrators enrages.
I cancelled NYT in 2016. It had been one of my main news sources for decades.
I am still taking WaPo...
There is a problem with dependence on news sources that align with one's views. Such dependence means that you need:
1. to be able to trust your source to scan and filter ALL important media, very much including unfriendly sources;
2. to be aware of the weaknesses, blind spots and bias of your trusted source.
It is useful to read or view enemy publications and programs from time to time. That way, you can be aware of and assess the effectiveness of their main propaganda, not on the basis of your own prejudices but their obvious emotional appeal.
I use the word "enemy" because the main thrust of both anti-democratic forces... AND terrorist organizations... can be summed up in three words:
How well known was it (outside of debate circles) before HCR mentioned it? Just noticed that the Wikipedia entry was updated yesterday. Wonder when it was created.
That, to me, is in the narcissists' playbook, this Gish Galloper tactic. Anyone who has had to live with a narcissist as a child or in a relationship probably has seen this tactic personally.
I am SO reminded of my ex-husband. It's been over a half century, but I can still remember feeling like a deer in the headlights trying to respond to his accusations. I get the same feeling listening to trump and trying to talk to his cult followers.
Why wasn’t Biden prepared for something like this? I don’t understand. I love the man, and I was heartened by your piece on Friday, Heather, but my experience with campaigns tells me this is scary. It was only one night, but an important one when so many people were watching. People saw him as an old man who couldn’t keep up, and the Trump ads will be showing those moments over and over. We have to hope that this doesn’t become their image of him, but I’m concerned.
Possibly the only solution is for aggressive moderators to slow things down, based on detailed real-time fact checking. It is not good enough for one of the debaters to simply dismiss his opponent's stream as "malarkey" because of the asymmetry mentioned above. Perhaps it would be enough for a panel of fact checkers to "score" the debate quietly as it goes along, flagging LIES and Half-truths in an inset, and summarizing it all at the end.
Mr. Spence, with respect, it is not what Trump did and said that perturbs. He lied like a rug, as he always does. True to form. No surprise. The heartbreak lies in a Joe Biden who often lost his train of thought, could not complete sentences, appeared frail and 30 years older than the despicable Donald. Newsome and Harris showed how easily Trump can be taken down. Joe and his wife Jill must give great thought to the precipice our Republic faces.
I rather agree with you Mr Davis about the way forward; however, it is perturbing to me that so many will unthinkingly accept tRump's lies. They are not surprise to some of us and we discount them automatically; many people do not. I agree with you about JB. It was heartbreaking to watch, especially in a couple of places where I couldn't help but wonder if somebody had laced his coffee. Part of the tRump strategy, of course, is to convince folks of exactly the impression that many got. I was thoroughly devastated until two things happened: 1) I listened to the debate again without video, and making some allowance for a person who struggles with stuttering, the out come was much more clearly favourable to JB. The camera did him considerable damage.; 2) I saw clips of him doing his thing yesterday and the day after the debate. It was hard to believe it was the same man. Clearly, JB has had a most successful presidency, delivering much more for the American people than tRump did has his predecessor. However, your main point about whether so much damage has been done that JB cannot sway the c. 10% of undecided voters in 6 swing states, is sound and sobering. I found the newsletter piece in The Atlantic by Ron Brownstein to be quite helpful ... https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/06/great-democratic-conundrum-biden/678830/?utm_campaign=atlantic-daily-newsletter&utm_content=20240628&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=The+Atlantic+Daily. Davey Crockett wisdom seems to be what we need here: "Be sure you're right, and then go ahead". Thanks for your comment.
I didn't know what they were called but I recognized it happening and the look on Biden's face is what mine would have looked like, inner thought going "WTF?"
Here's how you counter Gish- Galloping: jot down a few words about each lie as your opponent is talking. Next, when the moderator asks you a question, you say, "I'll answer that in a minute, but first I want to address just a few of the many lies my opponent tried to insult our audience with. Mr. Trump, you know it's a lie when you try to take credit for the "veterans' choice" plan, because it was actually President Obama who gave us that plan. The Jan.6th committee did not withhold evidence- that's a lie and you know it." After continuing in this manner for most of your allotted time, you turn to the moderator and say, "Now to address your question...." Trump used this strategy every time. He very seldom answered the moderator's question. Gish-Galloping by your opponent is no excuse for losing a debate, unless you just don't have the mental faculties to respond.
Exactamente! Lies must be convincingly refuted at source. Dismissing them simply as baloney or malarkey and going on is tRump's style. It works for the already-converted but is not convincing for others.
He probably got coached on the Gish Gallop technique by Jim Jordan, who is an absolute master at it. He talks gibberish so speedily, nobody has a clue what he's actually saying. Just that none of it is true. And now, we have the "master baiter," TFG, daring anyone to try to slow him down.
That is fasciating, and confirms what I keep telling people — It’s so much easier to spout a pile of crap than to explain reality. And people don’t WANT a lecture — they want to hear what they want to hear … Trump is a MASTER of the Gish Gallup … Spew sewage all over the landscape, and your opponent gets sh*t all over him trying to clear it up.
A skilled debater quick on his or her feet can defeat the Gish Gallop by simply stating the obvious, that the opponent is lying, without having to take the time to prove it. After the tenth time saying "that's a lie that doesn't deserve a response", everyone but the opponent's most devoted fanbois would be asking questions. This would be even more true if the moderators did their job and called out the lies as they happened.
Joe Biden on Thursday seemed incapable of the kind of quick response needed to disarm Trump's firehouse of lies. As for the moderators, they were guilty of gross malpractice for letting Trump get away with the falsehoods he spewed. In doing so, they validated the candidate his toxic and false ideas, and will allow him to present those lies as validated truth at his rallies from now till the end of the campaign.
For some reason, CNN didn't learn from the 2020 debates that a real-time fact checker should have been sitting next to the moderator with a buzzer. Shame on them if they do not have one at the next debate, if Trump even deigns to participate.
I over reacted too. I yelled and pouted and shook my metaphorical fists at Biden. But this non-debate was a good wake-up call. It’s good that it happened now. Now it’s Biden’s to lose. I think this ignited his fires.
My sage (not so) advise to Biden for his next debate; no matter what the question is, and btw, most questions can be anticipated in study groups, Biden should have 4 or 5 word response then immediately insult his opponent because that is the window to do it. He has 2 precious minutes; insult the fuck out of Trump. It’s not bad to do.
I recommend that all of you reading this, call or email the White House communications people and recommend that Biden begin a Fireside like Chat with the American people. He has the bully pulpit and he should use it. I called my Senator Blumenthal yesterday asking them to forward this idea. I told the person that it probably won’t get anywhere but it should. I will call the White House everyday going forward asking them to initiate a Fireside Chat.
Bill, our minds go in the same direction. Here’s my suggestion:
Biden should pick four talking points and show the energy that he showed in the Atlanta afterparty.
1)”You’re lying. Women don’t do full term abortions—that a lie to excuse states forcing women to carry their rapists’ babies and almost bleed out in the emergency rooms. 67% of Americans want Roe back.”
2) “You lie. Your tariffs will cost American families an extra $1500 for their clothes and cars. Your deportation plans will cost them an extra $1200 for food—while crops rot in the field”
3)”You lie. People’s 401Ks are worth more now than ever before because the stock market is higher than it’s ever been.”
4) “You lie. You’re the one who’s responsible for not having enough border agents to police the border—you told Congress to vote against the bipartisan immigration bill that would have fixed things “
If Trump goes to different stuff, ignore it and repeat one of the talking points—make Trump defend himself.
Tim, good idea! I’d like to see him give two-liners that could be recycled over and over again. If Trump brings up something crazy, say “That sounds crazy!” and then pivot to one of the four two-sentence points to drill them into the public’s long term memory.
Not sure because just saying that has no impact on the 70 million or more who think he is God. I think you target certain phrases and drill down on them. Liar, felon, insurrectionist, etc
On a right wing site I commented that I'd placed a $1000 bet in Atlantic City that Trump would only tell lies and never the truth. I mentioned that thanks to Trump's inability to tell the truth I earned an easy $1000.
I didn't hang around for the thumb's down or the "you're lying." I just walked away.
Actually not. If Biden hounds convicted felon Trump when he is speaking it will probably fluster him or interrupt his train of thought so he will look befuddled. Worst case no one will hear him other the CFDT.
Yes whatever salient points are chosen... he must drill down in every response: Trump liar, Trump felon, Trump misogynist, Trump insurrectionist, Trump destroyer of alliances, Trump the woman hater, Trump and Putin,
I say not the economy, because prices have not come down (except for eggs and a few things.) People believe prices should be what they remember of the Beforetime. If you still feel poor, the stock market doesn’t cheer you up.
No one at the debate brought up Project 2025, the plan to give Trump or any Republican president new powers.
Carol - A week ago Saturday, about 100 or so people attended a Project 2025 learning session. They really didn't know what to call it, but when you can get 100 people to attend a gathering on something as dry and full of BS as Project 2025 you know that people are very concerned.
I learned several things from the event the most important of which is that no one or even 10 work shops can uncover the utter disregard for the the US Constitution and how hellbent the Party of Trump is to make our country respect their warped version of Christianity and embrace the patriarchy.
I live with my wife, mother-in-law, sister-in-law, daughter, and two female pets. I am not remotely arrogant enough to try to force any of my beliefs on them even though I am accused of "man-plaining" things to them.
Anyway, I have read and skimmed about 100 pages of Project 2025 and I admit, there are a few positive changes that could be implemented, but I would rather change nothing than change even 1% of what they recommend.
Your point about the economy may not hit home with a lot of voters because once prices increase they rarely decrease except for food. I shop for the family and many items are less than they were in 2019. But many are not. It's not a game Democrats want to play to win.
All I know is that everyone I know that wants a good paying job, has one and has since the pandemic hit. I see people buying 2 or more packs of cigarettes a day, coffee and a breakfast sandwich and not batting an eye that it is costing them over $30. Of course, you can't sell bad choices to voters. No one is dumb enough to try except maybe convicted felon Donald Trump at one of his so-called rallies.
Thank you Carol for making me think about your comment and see, I do man-splain don't I?
Thanks, Gary. I don’t take mansplaining personally except from my spouse. I am glad to hear from someone who has learned more about Project 2025 than I have. And glad to hear there are workshops you describe.
You have witnessed examples of consumers spending as if inflation wasn’t motivating them. I know some people who complain about the price of groceries, then bring up their next cruise vacation. As with toddlers, it doesn’t work to tell people not to feel their feelings. Better to understand and redirect their attention to things they appreciate. (“I was shocked how much you used to pay for your insulin.”)
I love the “You lie” tactic. There are several others similar ones: You, sir, are a liar for instance. Perhaps You wouldn’t know the truth if it were staring you in the face. Maybe “You should be ashamed if that lie but then you’re basically shameless”. There probably won’t be another debate, but next time Biden will be prepared.
And don’t forget to tie him to Outin every chance possible. As a lapdog, not in a flattering light. A drooling obsequious little, whining groveling mongrel.
Excellent, Mary! You should send this to the WH people prepping Biden. This is exactly what I thought should be Biden's response Thurs. night bc you can't address all the lies T spews out. Your 'talking points" need to also include "the economy," another buzzword, explaining "inflation" and the high cost of everyday expenses --groceries, gas, housing, etc. But also how it's gradually improving.
I like this approach. But maybe not #3, with its mention of the stock market. Most people don’t own stocks. Lots of people don’t have 401K’s.
When I heard President Biden use the word equity, I cringed. Not because I don’t support it. Republicans and likely Independents, too, see it as a threat to themselves.
Add to #4, “If the border situation is as bad as you say, why is it OK to wait til after the election to deal with it?
Yes! When the bell rings, you go into the corner, splash of cold water, ammonia whiff, listen to the trainer, shake of the punches and go back in ready for round 2! Thank you Mr Katz. He needs to demand that Trump provide facts, numbers, not talking points. The Whitehouse should have a website available with all the numbers that prove Trumps lies! Then Joe can simply tell the viewers to reference the website during the debate, during campaign rallies, etc.
Someone in another group I belong to suggested just that. We have a pretty good idea of what lies he is going to spew, so have answers prepared and post in real time on website
Actually, it's ours to lose. Biden got back up on the horse at Raleigh. Everyone (well mostly everyone) was still hand wringing and jumping the Biden ship.
I really appreciate your activism and wisdom. Have a good weekend.
We will one day look back upon that debate and realize that it joined the other failed debates of other candidates who ultimately went on to win elections. And I recommend that Biden send federal troops to the border just because he can. ‘Nough said.
My advice is to not stand anywhere near the orange cocksplat. He doesn't deserve to be that close to a president when he's a convicted felon. After all, he tried to give him covid.
I’ve also heard DJT referred to as a “cockwomble.” All of these critics had some fairly appropriate and derisive appellations for Trump. The Scots have some fairly unflattering labels for Trump. He’s quite detested in Scotland despite the fact his mother Mary Anne was Scottish and raised on the Isle of Lewis. Mary Anne came to the United States from Scotland to work as a maid, and eventually met and married Fred Trump, Sr.
trump says I did not sleep with the porn star. "Why did you pay her $130,000?"
"America, this guy thinks you are stupid because he just keeps lying to you."
Things were so bad under Biden and great under me. "Then how did I kick your ass by 7M votes?" The election was rigged. "What actual proof do you have?"
Now I am a dang HS teacher and if I can come up with these, what in the fuzzy hail were the "professionals" doing with President Biden?
Bill (and others): at this point, in this election, debates are useless. We all know the candidates and who they are, and what they stand for. NO MORE DEBATES.
True, CF45 will want another go, as it gives him yet another opportunity to spout his lies to a national audience. But Biden's team should reject it, citing the felon's inability to tell the truth, and instead go on a Truth Tour around the country.
Barbara, I don't think it would look bad, if played right. CF45 doesn't play by any rulebook, and 'Brandolini's Law' (see above) states that in a debate, refuting a deliberate mistruth takes 10x as long as the original lie. There would be little room for dialog, as I see it. CF45 is a unique character known for lying regularly with impunity. It would be a Herculean task to clean out the manure from the stable (stable genius? He's far from it.)
And have moderators who actually moderate, rather than just ask questions. When the 🍊💩 started off, "let me go back..." Tapper should have said "no, we covered that topic, we're moving on, please answer the question I just asked" (Thanks to Ally House for info on how to use laptop emojis--I can't bear to even type his name)
I was worried from the very beginning when the moderators were announced. Tapper never pushed back on his show when people were spouting lies and Bash is a weak figure at best. Plus CNN is FOX light.
Bill, your comments after the debate pissed me off so I'm very happy to read your thoughts today. I,too, was angry with the debate. So much that I swore I wasn't going to read any more future thoughts and letters other than Cox Richardson, Vance, Kuo and Rather. I did see Biden's Raleigh speech and was blown away! Why wasn't he like that at the debate? Do you think that the White House will really begin to listen to what we ask and suggest?
Forgot? I will continue to vote for and donate to Joe but shit his staff should have prepped stay on point stay on point and I’m a retired elementary administrator and I needed to learn that - damn
Exactly. There was NO moderation. None.Shame on CNN and others for their shoddy, shallow commentary of this event. Someone wrote on Facebook yesterday-"He wasn't feeling well and he was arguing with the actual devil. Don't you dare abandon him."
Well? Why would that be a surprise. Someone said before the debate - "LET JOE BIDEN BE HIMSELF? They did not do that - seemingly they forgot what we have ALL seen right along - the orange boob does NOT "debate" - he opens mouth & spouts garbage - thats what he does at rallies and thats what he did Thursday night. And frankly, we've all listened & watched enough of the "news commenters" (because thats what they are - NOT actual journalists) for the last three and a half years at least. Did anyone actually believe that would change for a debate? They want clicks - they want to sell their news. PERIOD>
I am so freaking fed up with all of the hand wringing & the serious expressions on these news jerks faces as they tear Biden down & never a bad word OR a check on the lies the boob spouted.
We do not "need" someone else - we need to support Biden who is OUR candidate.
Lets just stop paying attention to these "commenters" - they clearly are no better than social media influencers!
Would it have been possible for the Joe Biden, the President of the United States, to say, "this isn't what I signed up for and I don't have time for it." And walked off the stage. It was not a debate and the moderators did NOTHING to stop the garbage that flowed from one of the debaters. Besides that, golf swings? It's all bait and switch. (The walking off the stage part is probably not a good idea :) but it would sure make me feel good! lol)
I love the idea -- but I have zero trouble understanding how that would have been spun: "Biden, the loser, walks offstage in a huff." Because no way would CNN or the rest of the media take responsibility for their own failures.
Actually, Susanna, I was kinda hoping Joe would walk across the stage and punch him in the face….and I say that as someone who eschews violence as a solution. Yeah, I was that pissed.
We already know by now that they have never moderated. They didn’t with Hillary while drumpf stomped around behind her as she talked, and they often enabled drumpf to bulldoze his opponent because they cannot manage his off script bullying behaviors.
Susanna, don't blame the moderators -- his prep team should have known (through inquiry, if nothing else) about the format, or anticipated it. I blame his prep team.
But no matter -- what's done is done. There's plenty of time to correct course; full court press now, in 🏀 terms. CF45 didn't win any new voters on Thursday.
Then why have moderators at all?? IIRC, Biden and/or his team chose the format or at least knew about it well in advance. I hope "what's done is done," but I'm not dismissing the possibility that the lily-livered white male apparatchiks running the national Democratic Party can still blow things up in their panic.
Trump was right on when President Biden made a remark in the debate and he replied- I don’t know what he said, I don’t think he even knows what he said
Seems many of those Quizlings that can't get paid are desperate enough for more pardons that they feel are their only hope for getting out of, or staying out of jail.
That's precisely the kind of comment Biden should have made throughout the evening. No facts, no figures, no defense of policies and achievements. Just pure ridicule. That would have kept Biden on an even keel and in a humorous, chatty frame of mind. You don't talk to a liar. You discard him.
We could all see he was struggling to say what he wanted to say. He has had a stammer all his life. Do you call that an excuse? I think it was likely an explanation. He had a cold or sore throat. Excuse or explanation? Biden likes to have facts at his command. Trump doesn’t deal in facts. What he says is what is real to him. Firehose of lies, flood the zone with shit, Gish Gallop—these are tactics have been impossible to deal with in two minutes, even by younger people who do not stutter, like Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, and Ted Cruz.
Yeah, Jen, a bonafide fakester….he’s so chicken that, except as scripted on The Apprentice (the pinnacle of his existence), he can’t ACTUALLY fire anyone in person. I’d like Joe to dare him to go bicycle riding with him, or as Joe offered in the debate, to play golf w/ him IF he carries his own bag (oh, and watchers to make sure he doesn’t cheat at golf as he’s wont to).
Trump is no street fighter. He is a lazy thug who throws out garbage and leaves others to do the clean up. He’s that kid who was good at the game of “ let’s you and him fight” who provoked a fight then sits back while you and the other idiot beat each other to a pulp
Next time, I recommend that President Biden keep repeating a simple speech, with 6 or 7 punchy bullet points. Abortion, economy / job creation, putin / nato, trump caused afghanistan (which he did), environment / climate, insurrection, convicted felon. Say this speech 5 times throughout the ‘debate.’ The debate questions are irrelevant; ignore them. Fact-checking and nuance are irrelevant. Do not talk about the border, and do not defend anything. Biden can hammer the psychotic fuck on every one of these points. Just keep going back to the same short speech. Like the chorus in a song.
President Biden was prepared for a DEBATE, and he forgot that the individual he faced is a "street fighter." Trump hurls accusations, falsehoods, wants you to think HE is the answer to his fake lies. We cannot desert Biden, we must work even more diligently. Come on people! A convicted felon, rapist, fake leader, attempted to denigrate one of the best leaders we have had in years. IS IT NOVEMBER YET?
True, Trump gave us a Gish gallop.
Kathy Hughes "Trump gave us a Gish gallop."
For those who don't know:
The 𝐆𝐢𝐬𝐡 𝐆𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐨𝐩 is a rhetorical technique in which a person in a debate attempts to overwhelm their opponent by providing an excessive number of arguments with no regard for the accuracy or strength of those arguments. (Wikipedia)
During a Gish Gallop, a debater confronts an opponent with a rapid series of specious arguments, half-truths, misrepresentations, and outright lies in a short space of time, which makes it impossible for the opponent to refute all of them within the format of a formal debate.
Each point raised by the Gish Galloper takes considerably more time to refute or fact-check than it did to state in the first place, which is known as 𝐁𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐝𝐨𝐥𝐢𝐧𝐢'𝐬 𝐥𝐚𝐰. The technique wastes an opponent's time and even casts doubt on the opponent's debating ability for an audience unfamiliar with the technique.
𝐁𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐝𝐨𝐥𝐢𝐧𝐢'𝐬 𝐥𝐚𝐰, also known as the "bullshit asymmetry principle," is an adage coined in 2013 by Alberto Brandolini that emphasizes the effort of debunking misinformation, in comparison to the relative ease of creating it in the first place. The law states:
"𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝑎𝑚𝑜𝑢𝑛𝑡 𝑜𝑓 𝑒𝑛𝑒𝑟𝑔𝑦 𝑛𝑒𝑒𝑑𝑒𝑑 𝑡𝑜 𝑟𝑒𝑓𝑢𝑡𝑒 𝑏𝑢𝑙𝑙𝑠ℎ𝑖𝑡 𝑖𝑠 𝑎𝑛 𝑜𝑟𝑑𝑒𝑟 𝑜𝑓 𝑚𝑎𝑔𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑢𝑑𝑒 𝑏𝑖𝑔𝑔𝑒𝑟 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑛𝑒𝑒𝑑𝑒𝑑 𝑡𝑜 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑑𝑢𝑐𝑒 𝑖𝑡."
I didn't realize it's a well known debate tactic.
I wonder if the counter argument traditionally is to run over and kick the perpetrator in the nuts so they can't speak..
Glad I had just set my coffee mug down and swallowed. Saved my laptop from another spewing forth of "guffawcoffee".
Morning, Ally! Here's a gifted article from the Atlantic by Mehdi Hasan written back in 2023 about the Gish Gallop...and how to counter it!
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/02/donald-trump-debate-strategy-gish-gallop/673061/?gift=aFbN6PR_6hTlYUVlokJksBVyuxsjBMXPhrltrGBN3LY&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share
Thanks for sharing this!! It's a pity that Mehdi Hassan wasn't brought in to halp prepare Biden for the "debate."
They should have had Rachel Bitecofer prepare him too. Mehdi and Rachel would have been a good combination.
And Jill to choose his clothes!
I don't think Trump is smart enough to do it on purpose. It is his normal train of thought, jumbled and with constant self praise.
I think HCR said that very same thing, more that he comes by it naturally.
I think you're right. He certainly never took the time to read that material. He's a natural sprewer...is that a word ?
From the Atlantic article: Don’t expect to counter (Russia’s) firehose of falsehood with the squirt gun of truth. Instead, put raincoats on those at whom the firehose is aimed.
Putting “raincoats” on your audience means making them aware of what a Gish Galloper is subjecting them to.
Point out, for example, that the speed at which they’re speaking is a sign of deceit, not intelligence. Or even that they’re relying on a favorite tactic of the Kremlin’s.
Thanks, Carol. I really liked the way Hasan framed that part of the article.
Thank you for sharing the article!
An interesting take of the debate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDPI_xqcyrk
Wow! That explains so much!
Thank you so much for that. I didn’t know what it was called at the time but I knew exactly what was being done to President Biden.
Thanks!!!
Thanks Lynell.
Thank you!
Fabulous. Thank you!
thanks, Lynell, great info.
Thanks!!!
Thanks for the link Lynell.
I think I owe you a reply from the other day, D4N. I'll check on it, I promise!
Yeah, that’s funny, but HCR pointed out in yesterday’s letter thst there are coutntermeasres to the Gish gallop tactic and that those countermeasures are known to debate experts. Since Gish galloping is Trump’s default mode of “communication,” I find it astonishing that Biden’s aides failed to prepare him to use effective countermeasures.
Me too. Somebody fell down on their job, or Biden didn’t focus on it. Maybe over-prepared with facts— if Trump would deal in them!
Next time!
Thanks Ally, I thought the same thing as I read Jens response. Boy did I need that belly laugh.
Me too, but I do vote for this!
you and me both
Maybe if our side didn’t exile Medhi Hassan from even one hour on Saturday we may have learned something. Medhi use to school virtually anyone that challenged him. He always scored debate points in his discussions with Israeli government official Mark Regev.
I give Regev credit for his willingness to engage Medhi but it was almost always a TKO.
The Republicans never throw allies under the bus but the Dems and progressive media do and, in this cycle, we not only lost voters, we lost talent.
Lynell and Ron - your points are well taken and the Atlantic article was a masterpiece. Thank you for sharing it with us.I can only hope that this will be a central prep strategy going forward. I am a student of leadership and one quality of a good leader is hiring superb talent. Biden's age (both candidates actually) concerns me and the debate seriously concerned me but I wrote that we need to "make haste slowly", take time to assess the why and evaluate options/next steps. Too often we demand immediate responses and that is dangerous. The fact he "nailed it" the next day gave me that needed time and that hope. It also reiterates for me this central point - he hires great people - none are in jail or convicted of crimes, just like Obama's team. Trump hires poorly and like him, many are felons, liars, and "me too" opportunists who care less about the greater good for all the people. How many got pardons? It is not just Joe we are voting for, it is his team - Deb, Pete, Janet, Anthony...etc. I love riding my Harley and I am riding with Biden.
lol. I almost choked on my tea!
Sorry. I have these kinda violent urges.
LOL, Jen. If that counter argument isn't utilized traditionally, you'd think maybe it oughta be!
Not just a debating tactic, a domination tactic, at once keeping the herd where the boss-man wants them and reducing to silence any upstart challenger.
Peter Burnett "Not just a debating tactic"
“𝐻𝑖𝑠 𝑝𝑟𝑖𝑚𝑎𝑟𝑦 𝑟𝑢𝑙𝑒𝑠 𝑤𝑒𝑟𝑒: 𝑛𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑟 𝑎𝑙𝑙𝑜𝑤 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑝𝑢𝑏𝑙𝑖𝑐 𝑡𝑜 𝑐𝑜𝑜𝑙 𝑜𝑓𝑓; 𝑛𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑟 𝑎𝑑𝑚𝑖𝑡 𝑎 𝑓𝑎𝑢𝑙𝑡 𝑜𝑟 𝑤𝑟𝑜𝑛𝑔; 𝑛𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑟 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑐𝑒𝑑𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑒 𝑚𝑎𝑦 𝑏𝑒 𝑠𝑜𝑚𝑒 𝑔𝑜𝑜𝑑 𝑖𝑛 𝑦𝑜𝑢𝑟 𝑒𝑛𝑒𝑚𝑦; 𝑛𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑟 𝑙𝑒𝑎𝑣𝑒 𝑟𝑜𝑜𝑚 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑎𝑙𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑛𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑣𝑒𝑠; 𝑛𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑟 𝑎𝑐𝑐𝑒𝑝𝑡 𝑏𝑙𝑎𝑚𝑒; 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑐𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑟𝑎𝑡𝑒 𝑜𝑛 𝑜𝑛𝑒 𝑒𝑛𝑒𝑚𝑦 𝑎𝑡 𝑎 𝑡𝑖𝑚𝑒 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑏𝑙𝑎𝑚𝑒 ℎ𝑖𝑚 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑦𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑔𝑜𝑒𝑠 𝑤𝑟𝑜𝑛𝑔; 𝑝𝑒𝑜𝑝𝑙𝑒 𝑤𝑖𝑙𝑙 𝑏𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑒𝑣𝑒 𝑎 𝑏𝑖𝑔 𝑙𝑖𝑒 𝑠𝑜𝑜𝑛𝑒𝑟 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑛 𝑎 𝑙𝑖𝑡𝑡𝑙𝑒 𝑜𝑛𝑒; 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑖𝑓 𝑦𝑜𝑢 𝑟𝑒𝑝𝑒𝑎𝑡 𝑖𝑡 𝑓𝑟𝑒𝑞𝑢𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑙𝑦 𝑒𝑛𝑜𝑢𝑔ℎ 𝑝𝑒𝑜𝑝𝑙𝑒 𝑤𝑖𝑙𝑙 𝑠𝑜𝑜𝑛𝑒𝑟 𝑜𝑟 𝑙𝑎𝑡𝑒𝑟 𝑏𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑒𝑣𝑒 𝑖𝑡.”
“𝐹𝑟𝑜𝑚 𝑎 𝑠𝑐𝑖𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑖𝑓𝑖𝑐 𝑝𝑜𝑖𝑛𝑡 𝑜𝑓 𝑣𝑖𝑒𝑤, 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑒𝑓𝑜𝑟𝑒, 𝑤𝑒 𝑎𝑟𝑒 𝑓𝑜𝑟𝑐𝑒𝑑 𝑡𝑜 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑠𝑖𝑑𝑒𝑟 𝐻𝑖𝑡𝑙𝑒𝑟, 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝐹𝑢𝑒ℎ𝑟𝑒𝑟, 𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑎𝑠 𝑎 𝑝𝑒𝑟𝑠𝑜𝑛𝑎𝑙 𝑑𝑒𝑣𝑖𝑙, 𝑤𝑖𝑐𝑘𝑒𝑑 𝑎𝑠 ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑎𝑐𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛𝑠 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑝ℎ𝑖𝑙𝑜𝑠𝑜𝑝ℎ𝑦 𝑚𝑎𝑦 𝑏𝑒, 𝑏𝑢𝑡 𝑎𝑠 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑒𝑥𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑠𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑜𝑓 𝑎 𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝑚𝑖𝑛𝑑 𝑒𝑥𝑖𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑖𝑛 𝑚𝑖𝑙𝑙𝑖𝑜𝑛𝑠 𝑜𝑓 𝑝𝑒𝑜𝑝𝑙𝑒, 𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑜𝑛𝑙𝑦 𝑖𝑛 𝐺𝑒𝑟𝑚𝑎𝑛𝑦 𝑏𝑢𝑡, 𝑡𝑜 𝑎 𝑠𝑚𝑎𝑙𝑙𝑒𝑟 𝑑𝑒𝑔𝑟𝑒𝑒, 𝑖𝑛 𝑎𝑙𝑙 𝑐𝑖𝑣𝑖𝑙𝑖𝑧𝑒𝑑 𝑐𝑜𝑢𝑛𝑡𝑟𝑖𝑒𝑠. 𝑇𝑜 𝑟𝑒𝑚𝑜𝑣𝑒 𝐻𝑖𝑡𝑙𝑒𝑟 𝑚𝑎𝑦 𝑏𝑒 𝑎 𝑛𝑒𝑐𝑒𝑠𝑠𝑎𝑟𝑦 𝑓𝑖𝑟𝑠𝑡 𝑠𝑡𝑒𝑝, 𝑏𝑢𝑡 𝑖𝑡 𝑤𝑜𝑢𝑙𝑑 𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑏𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑐𝑢𝑟𝑒. 𝐼𝑡 𝑤𝑜𝑢𝑙𝑑 𝑏𝑒 𝑎𝑛𝑎𝑙𝑜𝑔𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑡𝑜 𝑐𝑢𝑟𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑎𝑛 𝑢𝑙𝑐𝑒𝑟 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ𝑜𝑢𝑡 𝑡𝑟𝑒𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑢𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑟𝑙𝑦𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑑𝑖𝑠𝑒𝑎𝑠𝑒. 𝐼𝑓 𝑠𝑖𝑚𝑖𝑙𝑎𝑟 𝑒𝑟𝑢𝑝𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛𝑠 𝑎𝑟𝑒 𝑡𝑜 𝑏𝑒 𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑣𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑒𝑑 𝑖𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑓𝑢𝑡𝑢𝑟𝑒, 𝑤𝑒 𝑐𝑎𝑛𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑡𝑒𝑛𝑡 𝑜𝑢𝑟𝑠𝑒𝑙𝑣𝑒𝑠 𝑤𝑖𝑡ℎ 𝑠𝑖𝑚𝑝𝑙𝑦 𝑟𝑒𝑚𝑜𝑣𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑜𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑡 𝑚𝑎𝑛𝑖𝑓𝑒𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛𝑠 𝑜𝑓 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑑𝑖𝑠𝑒𝑎𝑠𝑒. 𝑂𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑐𝑜𝑛𝑡𝑟𝑎𝑟𝑦, 𝑤𝑒 𝑚𝑢𝑠𝑡 𝑓𝑒𝑟𝑟𝑒𝑡 𝑜𝑢𝑡 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑠𝑒𝑒𝑘 𝑡𝑜 𝑐𝑜𝑟𝑟𝑒𝑐𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑢𝑛𝑑𝑒𝑟𝑙𝑦𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑓𝑎𝑐𝑡𝑜𝑟𝑠 𝑤ℎ𝑖𝑐ℎ 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑑𝑢𝑐𝑒𝑑 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑢𝑛𝑤𝑒𝑙𝑐𝑜𝑚𝑒 𝑝ℎ𝑒𝑛𝑜𝑚𝑒𝑛𝑜𝑛. 𝑊𝑒 𝑚𝑢𝑠𝑡 𝑑𝑖𝑠𝑐𝑜𝑣𝑒𝑟 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑝𝑠𝑦𝑐ℎ𝑜𝑙𝑜𝑔𝑖𝑐𝑎𝑙 𝑠𝑡𝑟𝑒𝑎𝑚𝑠 𝑤ℎ𝑖𝑐ℎ 𝑛𝑜𝑢𝑟𝑖𝑠ℎ 𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑑𝑒𝑠𝑡𝑟𝑢𝑐𝑡𝑖𝑣𝑒 𝑠𝑡𝑎𝑡𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝑚𝑖𝑛𝑑 𝑖𝑛 𝑜𝑟𝑑𝑒𝑟 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑤𝑒 𝑚𝑎𝑦 𝑑𝑖𝑣𝑒𝑟𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑚 𝑖𝑛𝑡𝑜 𝑐ℎ𝑎𝑛𝑛𝑒𝑙𝑠 𝑤ℎ𝑖𝑐ℎ 𝑤𝑖𝑙𝑙 𝑝𝑒𝑟𝑚𝑖𝑡 𝑎 𝑓𝑢𝑟𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑟 𝑒𝑣𝑜𝑙𝑢𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛 𝑜𝑓 𝑜𝑢𝑟 𝑓𝑜𝑟𝑚 𝑜𝑓 𝑐𝑖𝑣𝑖𝑙𝑖𝑧𝑎𝑡𝑖𝑜𝑛.”
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/psychological-analysis-of-hitler-s-life-and-legend-2?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1y6_jvk9v1gXX07iDAWqJa22Kw0BaiXV4duLcAo-NvRvgV2lEyTGfBhw4_aem_-CA0yx_vQceuaVrDtUJIzg
This is excellent stuff and could hardly be more relevant, but I have not forgotten that in 2016 the esteemed New York Times would not publish a completely neutral comment of mine, drawing attention to the explanation for the success of Hitler's oratory given to my father in 1943 by a British journalist, Wilcox by name, who, as foreign correspondent for the British newspaper News Chronicle, had covered BOTH the 1917 Revolution in Russia AND Hitler's rise to power.
I always supposed that, in its wisdom, the algorithmic censor of the NYT excluded all mention of the name Hitler.
Since, however, the explanation in question was that the would-be Führer had replaced Germany's staid oratorical tradition, grounded in the funeral oration, by wild ranting in the language of beer hall and barrack room, it did seem to me that the matter was highly relevant to the world here and now.
Now that the nation's collective psyche has been flooded with a tide of shit by our latterday misleader and acolytes, it is already too late to reverse the damage.
And the Drumpfian powers-that-be can be relied on to ensure that, even if some modern Hercules should unleash all America's great rivers from the Mississippi to the Hudson to... the Potomac... on their national Augean Stables, that would not only spread far more chemicals and excrement, it would ensure that Nature could never recover...
Foes of mankind. Foes of the Earth.
Pardon this rant, but the unmentionable disease is so foul, the very thought of it and its perpetrators enrages.
I cancelled NYT this morning. I could get 5 substacks for the same price.
I had the same rationale for canceling NYT and WaPo subscriptions a few months ago.
. . . did the same!
I cancelled NYT in 2016. It had been one of my main news sources for decades.
I am still taking WaPo...
There is a problem with dependence on news sources that align with one's views. Such dependence means that you need:
1. to be able to trust your source to scan and filter ALL important media, very much including unfriendly sources;
2. to be aware of the weaknesses, blind spots and bias of your trusted source.
It is useful to read or view enemy publications and programs from time to time. That way, you can be aware of and assess the effectiveness of their main propaganda, not on the basis of your own prejudices but their obvious emotional appeal.
I use the word "enemy" because the main thrust of both anti-democratic forces... AND terrorist organizations... can be summed up in three words:
DIVIDE AND MISRULE.
Whoa. Really?!!
How well known was it (outside of debate circles) before HCR mentioned it? Just noticed that the Wikipedia entry was updated yesterday. Wonder when it was created.
Oooooohhhh, Jen, I like that even better than my comment below to punch him in the face!!!
Your counter argument sounds like a wise rebuttal indeed.
I'm laughing as I type this! 😂😂 If that isn't the counter argument, it really should be! That is such a visual in my mind! bahahaha!
We should all learn about propaganda and debate techniques and logical fallacies and advertising psychology starting in middle school.
My grand daughter did.
Short term but effective solution
That would have been GREAT to see but CFDT has such small ones, it might be hard to find them!
That would be appropriate.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
I’ve been sayinng Biden should just have pointed out that nothing Trump said made sense — it was all lies and ludicrous deflection.
“Did you ever hears such a load of bull?”
And maybe some truth … but NO defense … only stay on the offense and defang the Orange One.
Well, hindsight …
NOW, we have to show the world that Biden is up to it, and we are behind him.
IIRC, when Biden got tired of Trump's constant interruptions, "Will you shut up, man!?" worked pretty well.
That, to me, is in the narcissists' playbook, this Gish Galloper tactic. Anyone who has had to live with a narcissist as a child or in a relationship probably has seen this tactic personally.
I am SO reminded of my ex-husband. It's been over a half century, but I can still remember feeling like a deer in the headlights trying to respond to his accusations. I get the same feeling listening to trump and trying to talk to his cult followers.
Yep and Trump is the king of solipsism.
It’s a rhetorical tactic that Dinesh D’Souza was infamous for using.
Thank you so much for your clear definitions and details.
Why wasn’t Biden prepared for something like this? I don’t understand. I love the man, and I was heartened by your piece on Friday, Heather, but my experience with campaigns tells me this is scary. It was only one night, but an important one when so many people were watching. People saw him as an old man who couldn’t keep up, and the Trump ads will be showing those moments over and over. We have to hope that this doesn’t become their image of him, but I’m concerned.
According to Lawrence O'Donnell, very few undecided voters in swing states watched even one moment of this non debate. Keep calm and carry on.
Possibly the only solution is for aggressive moderators to slow things down, based on detailed real-time fact checking. It is not good enough for one of the debaters to simply dismiss his opponent's stream as "malarkey" because of the asymmetry mentioned above. Perhaps it would be enough for a panel of fact checkers to "score" the debate quietly as it goes along, flagging LIES and Half-truths in an inset, and summarizing it all at the end.
In this case there were no moderators and no moderation.
Mr. Spence, with respect, it is not what Trump did and said that perturbs. He lied like a rug, as he always does. True to form. No surprise. The heartbreak lies in a Joe Biden who often lost his train of thought, could not complete sentences, appeared frail and 30 years older than the despicable Donald. Newsome and Harris showed how easily Trump can be taken down. Joe and his wife Jill must give great thought to the precipice our Republic faces.
I rather agree with you Mr Davis about the way forward; however, it is perturbing to me that so many will unthinkingly accept tRump's lies. They are not surprise to some of us and we discount them automatically; many people do not. I agree with you about JB. It was heartbreaking to watch, especially in a couple of places where I couldn't help but wonder if somebody had laced his coffee. Part of the tRump strategy, of course, is to convince folks of exactly the impression that many got. I was thoroughly devastated until two things happened: 1) I listened to the debate again without video, and making some allowance for a person who struggles with stuttering, the out come was much more clearly favourable to JB. The camera did him considerable damage.; 2) I saw clips of him doing his thing yesterday and the day after the debate. It was hard to believe it was the same man. Clearly, JB has had a most successful presidency, delivering much more for the American people than tRump did has his predecessor. However, your main point about whether so much damage has been done that JB cannot sway the c. 10% of undecided voters in 6 swing states, is sound and sobering. I found the newsletter piece in The Atlantic by Ron Brownstein to be quite helpful ... https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/06/great-democratic-conundrum-biden/678830/?utm_campaign=atlantic-daily-newsletter&utm_content=20240628&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=The+Atlantic+Daily. Davey Crockett wisdom seems to be what we need here: "Be sure you're right, and then go ahead". Thanks for your comment.
Love this idea, John!
It’s like confronting a cheating spouse
I didn't know what they were called but I recognized it happening and the look on Biden's face is what mine would have looked like, inner thought going "WTF?"
attributed to Mark Twain, among others;
A lie can travel half way around the World, while the Truth is still pulling in its boots.
Here's how you counter Gish- Galloping: jot down a few words about each lie as your opponent is talking. Next, when the moderator asks you a question, you say, "I'll answer that in a minute, but first I want to address just a few of the many lies my opponent tried to insult our audience with. Mr. Trump, you know it's a lie when you try to take credit for the "veterans' choice" plan, because it was actually President Obama who gave us that plan. The Jan.6th committee did not withhold evidence- that's a lie and you know it." After continuing in this manner for most of your allotted time, you turn to the moderator and say, "Now to address your question...." Trump used this strategy every time. He very seldom answered the moderator's question. Gish-Galloping by your opponent is no excuse for losing a debate, unless you just don't have the mental faculties to respond.
Exactamente! Lies must be convincingly refuted at source. Dismissing them simply as baloney or malarkey and going on is tRump's style. It works for the already-converted but is not convincing for others.
He probably got coached on the Gish Gallop technique by Jim Jordan, who is an absolute master at it. He talks gibberish so speedily, nobody has a clue what he's actually saying. Just that none of it is true. And now, we have the "master baiter," TFG, daring anyone to try to slow him down.
Repulsive.
The Gish Gallop was named after biblical literalist/young-earth creationist/evolution denier Duane T. Gish.
He was one sick f*ck.
Anyone who uses the Gallop in a debate setting is admitting that their factual position is a losing one.
Adroitly ignore, focus on main item, take off independently.
That is fasciating, and confirms what I keep telling people — It’s so much easier to spout a pile of crap than to explain reality. And people don’t WANT a lecture — they want to hear what they want to hear … Trump is a MASTER of the Gish Gallup … Spew sewage all over the landscape, and your opponent gets sh*t all over him trying to clear it up.
Gad.
Brilliant - thank you!
I hope the Biden team, and all democrats, read this post and incorporate it's essence into their campaign speeches.
Ron, excellent! Love Brandolini!
A skilled debater quick on his or her feet can defeat the Gish Gallop by simply stating the obvious, that the opponent is lying, without having to take the time to prove it. After the tenth time saying "that's a lie that doesn't deserve a response", everyone but the opponent's most devoted fanbois would be asking questions. This would be even more true if the moderators did their job and called out the lies as they happened.
Joe Biden on Thursday seemed incapable of the kind of quick response needed to disarm Trump's firehouse of lies. As for the moderators, they were guilty of gross malpractice for letting Trump get away with the falsehoods he spewed. In doing so, they validated the candidate his toxic and false ideas, and will allow him to present those lies as validated truth at his rallies from now till the end of the campaign.
For some reason, CNN didn't learn from the 2020 debates that a real-time fact checker should have been sitting next to the moderator with a buzzer. Shame on them if they do not have one at the next debate, if Trump even deigns to participate.
I over reacted too. I yelled and pouted and shook my metaphorical fists at Biden. But this non-debate was a good wake-up call. It’s good that it happened now. Now it’s Biden’s to lose. I think this ignited his fires.
My sage (not so) advise to Biden for his next debate; no matter what the question is, and btw, most questions can be anticipated in study groups, Biden should have 4 or 5 word response then immediately insult his opponent because that is the window to do it. He has 2 precious minutes; insult the fuck out of Trump. It’s not bad to do.
I recommend that all of you reading this, call or email the White House communications people and recommend that Biden begin a Fireside like Chat with the American people. He has the bully pulpit and he should use it. I called my Senator Blumenthal yesterday asking them to forward this idea. I told the person that it probably won’t get anywhere but it should. I will call the White House everyday going forward asking them to initiate a Fireside Chat.
Bill, our minds go in the same direction. Here’s my suggestion:
Biden should pick four talking points and show the energy that he showed in the Atlanta afterparty.
1)”You’re lying. Women don’t do full term abortions—that a lie to excuse states forcing women to carry their rapists’ babies and almost bleed out in the emergency rooms. 67% of Americans want Roe back.”
2) “You lie. Your tariffs will cost American families an extra $1500 for their clothes and cars. Your deportation plans will cost them an extra $1200 for food—while crops rot in the field”
3)”You lie. People’s 401Ks are worth more now than ever before because the stock market is higher than it’s ever been.”
4) “You lie. You’re the one who’s responsible for not having enough border agents to police the border—you told Congress to vote against the bipartisan immigration bill that would have fixed things “
If Trump goes to different stuff, ignore it and repeat one of the talking points—make Trump defend himself.
Or maybe a good Joe approach would be, "I gotta say you're consistent, man. You lie about everything. Name one thing you haven't lied about tonight."
Tim, good idea! I’d like to see him give two-liners that could be recycled over and over again. If Trump brings up something crazy, say “That sounds crazy!” and then pivot to one of the four two-sentence points to drill them into the public’s long term memory.
Yes. You can’t create a logical conversation with a serial liar. So just talk over them.
Bill, right! Just use it as an opportunity to repeat your top attack point.
Another suggestion, "Your nose is growing longer. "
Maybe laugh uproariously and say“Man, what have you been smokin’?”
that I like- using humor to repeatedly disparage the idiot in the room
Not sure because just saying that has no impact on the 70 million or more who think he is God. I think you target certain phrases and drill down on them. Liar, felon, insurrectionist, etc
Tim Slager -- Perfect suggestion!!
Oh, wait that one thing named WILL ALSO BE A LIE.
On a right wing site I commented that I'd placed a $1000 bet in Atlantic City that Trump would only tell lies and never the truth. I mentioned that thanks to Trump's inability to tell the truth I earned an easy $1000.
I didn't hang around for the thumb's down or the "you're lying." I just walked away.
It won't work because dumpty will ignore it.
But I like starting every answer with "you lie" and then moving on to whatever Joe had planned to say.
Repeat it often enough.
Absolutely 1000%. Biden needs to talk over Trump and it’s not hard to do.
Hard to do with a closed mic.
Actually not. If Biden hounds convicted felon Trump when he is speaking it will probably fluster him or interrupt his train of thought so he will look befuddled. Worst case no one will hear him other the CFDT.
Yes whatever salient points are chosen... he must drill down in every response: Trump liar, Trump felon, Trump misogynist, Trump insurrectionist, Trump destroyer of alliances, Trump the woman hater, Trump and Putin,
chose a few and blast them all night long
Pick three things to respond to -- Abortion, Immigration, the great economy/stock market.
I say not the economy, because prices have not come down (except for eggs and a few things.) People believe prices should be what they remember of the Beforetime. If you still feel poor, the stock market doesn’t cheer you up.
No one at the debate brought up Project 2025, the plan to give Trump or any Republican president new powers.
Carol - A week ago Saturday, about 100 or so people attended a Project 2025 learning session. They really didn't know what to call it, but when you can get 100 people to attend a gathering on something as dry and full of BS as Project 2025 you know that people are very concerned.
I learned several things from the event the most important of which is that no one or even 10 work shops can uncover the utter disregard for the the US Constitution and how hellbent the Party of Trump is to make our country respect their warped version of Christianity and embrace the patriarchy.
I live with my wife, mother-in-law, sister-in-law, daughter, and two female pets. I am not remotely arrogant enough to try to force any of my beliefs on them even though I am accused of "man-plaining" things to them.
Anyway, I have read and skimmed about 100 pages of Project 2025 and I admit, there are a few positive changes that could be implemented, but I would rather change nothing than change even 1% of what they recommend.
Your point about the economy may not hit home with a lot of voters because once prices increase they rarely decrease except for food. I shop for the family and many items are less than they were in 2019. But many are not. It's not a game Democrats want to play to win.
All I know is that everyone I know that wants a good paying job, has one and has since the pandemic hit. I see people buying 2 or more packs of cigarettes a day, coffee and a breakfast sandwich and not batting an eye that it is costing them over $30. Of course, you can't sell bad choices to voters. No one is dumb enough to try except maybe convicted felon Donald Trump at one of his so-called rallies.
Thank you Carol for making me think about your comment and see, I do man-splain don't I?
Thanks, Gary. I don’t take mansplaining personally except from my spouse. I am glad to hear from someone who has learned more about Project 2025 than I have. And glad to hear there are workshops you describe.
You have witnessed examples of consumers spending as if inflation wasn’t motivating them. I know some people who complain about the price of groceries, then bring up their next cruise vacation. As with toddlers, it doesn’t work to tell people not to feel their feelings. Better to understand and redirect their attention to things they appreciate. (“I was shocked how much you used to pay for your insulin.”)
I love the “You lie” tactic. There are several others similar ones: You, sir, are a liar for instance. Perhaps You wouldn’t know the truth if it were staring you in the face. Maybe “You should be ashamed if that lie but then you’re basically shameless”. There probably won’t be another debate, but next time Biden will be prepared.
And don’t forget to tie him to Outin every chance possible. As a lapdog, not in a flattering light. A drooling obsequious little, whining groveling mongrel.
Excellent, Mary! You should send this to the WH people prepping Biden. This is exactly what I thought should be Biden's response Thurs. night bc you can't address all the lies T spews out. Your 'talking points" need to also include "the economy," another buzzword, explaining "inflation" and the high cost of everyday expenses --groceries, gas, housing, etc. But also how it's gradually improving.
I like this approach. But maybe not #3, with its mention of the stock market. Most people don’t own stocks. Lots of people don’t have 401K’s.
When I heard President Biden use the word equity, I cringed. Not because I don’t support it. Republicans and likely Independents, too, see it as a threat to themselves.
Add to #4, “If the border situation is as bad as you say, why is it OK to wait til after the election to deal with it?
Great!
Yes! When the bell rings, you go into the corner, splash of cold water, ammonia whiff, listen to the trainer, shake of the punches and go back in ready for round 2! Thank you Mr Katz. He needs to demand that Trump provide facts, numbers, not talking points. The Whitehouse should have a website available with all the numbers that prove Trumps lies! Then Joe can simply tell the viewers to reference the website during the debate, during campaign rallies, etc.
Someone in another group I belong to suggested just that. We have a pretty good idea of what lies he is going to spew, so have answers prepared and post in real time on website
"Now it’s Biden’s to lose. "
Actually, it's ours to lose. Biden got back up on the horse at Raleigh. Everyone (well mostly everyone) was still hand wringing and jumping the Biden ship.
I really appreciate your activism and wisdom. Have a good weekend.
We will one day look back upon that debate and realize that it joined the other failed debates of other candidates who ultimately went on to win elections. And I recommend that Biden send federal troops to the border just because he can. ‘Nough said.
My advice is to not stand anywhere near the orange cocksplat. He doesn't deserve to be that close to a president when he's a convicted felon. After all, he tried to give him covid.
Ooooh, I'm gonna use that!
ORANGE COCKSPLAT 😁
Me too 😊
Sorry, gotta use it Jen. Orange cocksplat is exactly what he is.
Or "cockwobble" (thank you, Jodi Taylor, for introducing the term in the novel Saving Time).
I’ve also heard DJT referred to as a “cockwomble.” All of these critics had some fairly appropriate and derisive appellations for Trump. The Scots have some fairly unflattering labels for Trump. He’s quite detested in Scotland despite the fact his mother Mary Anne was Scottish and raised on the Isle of Lewis. Mary Anne came to the United States from Scotland to work as a maid, and eventually met and married Fred Trump, Sr.
So Jen, I understand “cock” but not “splat”! Is it vomit that comes out of the prancing orange animal?
I was waiting for:
trump says I did not sleep with the porn star. "Why did you pay her $130,000?"
"America, this guy thinks you are stupid because he just keeps lying to you."
Things were so bad under Biden and great under me. "Then how did I kick your ass by 7M votes?" The election was rigged. "What actual proof do you have?"
Now I am a dang HS teacher and if I can come up with these, what in the fuzzy hail were the "professionals" doing with President Biden?
Bill (and others): at this point, in this election, debates are useless. We all know the candidates and who they are, and what they stand for. NO MORE DEBATES.
True, CF45 will want another go, as it gives him yet another opportunity to spout his lies to a national audience. But Biden's team should reject it, citing the felon's inability to tell the truth, and instead go on a Truth Tour around the country.
NO MORE DEBATES.
That would look bad on the Biden camp. The rules must change. Allow for fact checking.
Barbara, I don't think it would look bad, if played right. CF45 doesn't play by any rulebook, and 'Brandolini's Law' (see above) states that in a debate, refuting a deliberate mistruth takes 10x as long as the original lie. There would be little room for dialog, as I see it. CF45 is a unique character known for lying regularly with impunity. It would be a Herculean task to clean out the manure from the stable (stable genius? He's far from it.)
Excellent points Doug. then what to do if cancelling the debate is not an option?
And have moderators who actually moderate, rather than just ask questions. When the 🍊💩 started off, "let me go back..." Tapper should have said "no, we covered that topic, we're moving on, please answer the question I just asked" (Thanks to Ally House for info on how to use laptop emojis--I can't bear to even type his name)
I was worried from the very beginning when the moderators were announced. Tapper never pushed back on his show when people were spouting lies and Bash is a weak figure at best. Plus CNN is FOX light.
Plus Tapper kept calling him President tr-mp. I hate this.
Me too.
Even better!
I like this idea too.. Call the liar out
Yeay! A truth tour!
Bill, your comments after the debate pissed me off so I'm very happy to read your thoughts today. I,too, was angry with the debate. So much that I swore I wasn't going to read any more future thoughts and letters other than Cox Richardson, Vance, Kuo and Rather. I did see Biden's Raleigh speech and was blown away! Why wasn't he like that at the debate? Do you think that the White House will really begin to listen to what we ask and suggest?
I hope by now that they will.
It’s for us to make constructive suggestions it’s for them to consider them.
The fireside chat is a great idea! I will also forward that suggestion to the White House!
I suggested this a year ago. Either a fireside chat or regular town hall meetings or interviews.
Thanks for seeing the light, Bill. Yes, a fireside chat who's be a good start.
Forgot? I will continue to vote for and donate to Joe but shit his staff should have prepped stay on point stay on point and I’m a retired elementary administrator and I needed to learn that - damn
How could his staff have prepped him for the possibility that the moderators wouldn't moderate?
Exactly. There was NO moderation. None.Shame on CNN and others for their shoddy, shallow commentary of this event. Someone wrote on Facebook yesterday-"He wasn't feeling well and he was arguing with the actual devil. Don't you dare abandon him."
Well? Why would that be a surprise. Someone said before the debate - "LET JOE BIDEN BE HIMSELF? They did not do that - seemingly they forgot what we have ALL seen right along - the orange boob does NOT "debate" - he opens mouth & spouts garbage - thats what he does at rallies and thats what he did Thursday night. And frankly, we've all listened & watched enough of the "news commenters" (because thats what they are - NOT actual journalists) for the last three and a half years at least. Did anyone actually believe that would change for a debate? They want clicks - they want to sell their news. PERIOD>
I am so freaking fed up with all of the hand wringing & the serious expressions on these news jerks faces as they tear Biden down & never a bad word OR a check on the lies the boob spouted.
We do not "need" someone else - we need to support Biden who is OUR candidate.
Lets just stop paying attention to these "commenters" - they clearly are no better than social media influencers!
1000%, Maggie.
Would it have been possible for the Joe Biden, the President of the United States, to say, "this isn't what I signed up for and I don't have time for it." And walked off the stage. It was not a debate and the moderators did NOTHING to stop the garbage that flowed from one of the debaters. Besides that, golf swings? It's all bait and switch. (The walking off the stage part is probably not a good idea :) but it would sure make me feel good! lol)
I love the idea -- but I have zero trouble understanding how that would have been spun: "Biden, the loser, walks offstage in a huff." Because no way would CNN or the rest of the media take responsibility for their own failures.
Actually, Susanna, I was kinda hoping Joe would walk across the stage and punch him in the face….and I say that as someone who eschews violence as a solution. Yeah, I was that pissed.
Now I'm visualizing something involving a pie . . . <g>
It would have been a slow walk in a huff, adding to the criticism of that action. Plus, he did get stronger as the session went on.
No. See below.
We already know by now that they have never moderated. They didn’t with Hillary while drumpf stomped around behind her as she talked, and they often enabled drumpf to bulldoze his opponent because they cannot manage his off script bullying behaviors.
Susanna, don't blame the moderators -- his prep team should have known (through inquiry, if nothing else) about the format, or anticipated it. I blame his prep team.
But no matter -- what's done is done. There's plenty of time to correct course; full court press now, in 🏀 terms. CF45 didn't win any new voters on Thursday.
Then why have moderators at all?? IIRC, Biden and/or his team chose the format or at least knew about it well in advance. I hope "what's done is done," but I'm not dismissing the possibility that the lily-livered white male apparatchiks running the national Democratic Party can still blow things up in their panic.
Never forget what chump is, he has NEVER been anything else. The Dem genuses helping him prepare know that
Trump was right on when President Biden made a remark in the debate and he replied- I don’t know what he said, I don’t think he even knows what he said
Go get on chump’s payroll. Ha, he never pays, he just pardons
Seems many of those Quizlings that can't get paid are desperate enough for more pardons that they feel are their only hope for getting out of, or staying out of jail.
In regards to the donvict.
He may speak his mind but his mind ain't right.
You should read the transcripts of some of the donvicts rally speeches.
Word salad is putting it mildly.
And how many times has his enablers gone out and try to explain what he meant?
GTFOHWTSMS!
That's precisely the kind of comment Biden should have made throughout the evening. No facts, no figures, no defense of policies and achievements. Just pure ridicule. That would have kept Biden on an even keel and in a humorous, chatty frame of mind. You don't talk to a liar. You discard him.
And your point is. . .
We could all see he was struggling to say what he wanted to say. He has had a stammer all his life. Do you call that an excuse? I think it was likely an explanation. He had a cold or sore throat. Excuse or explanation? Biden likes to have facts at his command. Trump doesn’t deal in facts. What he says is what is real to him. Firehose of lies, flood the zone with shit, Gish Gallop—these are tactics have been impossible to deal with in two minutes, even by younger people who do not stutter, like Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, and Ted Cruz.
Street fighter is too kind. He's a fraud, a WWE wrestler which is all performance and bullshit.
Honed his skills over a lifetime so claiming he dropped the price of insulin to $35 didn't faze him in the least.
Yeah, Jen, a bonafide fakester….he’s so chicken that, except as scripted on The Apprentice (the pinnacle of his existence), he can’t ACTUALLY fire anyone in person. I’d like Joe to dare him to go bicycle riding with him, or as Joe offered in the debate, to play golf w/ him IF he carries his own bag (oh, and watchers to make sure he doesn’t cheat at golf as he’s wont to).
Trump is no street fighter. He is a lazy thug who throws out garbage and leaves others to do the clean up. He’s that kid who was good at the game of “ let’s you and him fight” who provoked a fight then sits back while you and the other idiot beat each other to a pulp
We have to stay motivated and united.
Next time, I recommend that President Biden keep repeating a simple speech, with 6 or 7 punchy bullet points. Abortion, economy / job creation, putin / nato, trump caused afghanistan (which he did), environment / climate, insurrection, convicted felon. Say this speech 5 times throughout the ‘debate.’ The debate questions are irrelevant; ignore them. Fact-checking and nuance are irrelevant. Do not talk about the border, and do not defend anything. Biden can hammer the psychotic fuck on every one of these points. Just keep going back to the same short speech. Like the chorus in a song.