There are additional sides of this. Listen to Jenna Ryan after her arrest in connection with the insurrection in the capitol on January 6:
“I don’t feel a sense of shame or guilty from my heart. I feel like I was basically following my president. I was following what we were called to do. He asked us to fly there. He asked us to be there…
There are additional sides of this. Listen to Jenna Ryan after her arrest in connection with the insurrection in the capitol on January 6:
“I don’t feel a sense of shame or guilty from my heart. I feel like I was basically following my president. I was following what we were called to do. He asked us to fly there. He asked us to be there. So I was doing what he asked us to do,” Ryan said. “I do feel a little wronged in this situation because I’m a real estate agent and this has taken my company. This has taken my business. I am being slandered all over the internet, all over the world and all over the news and I’m just like a normal person.”
Somebody else, speaking in 1960 after their arrest in connection with World War 2:
“To sum it all up, I must say that I regret nothing. My heart was light and joyful in my work, because the decisions were not mine. Obeying an order was the most important thing to me. It could be that is in the nature of the German. I had to watch the madness of destruction, because I was one of the many horses pulling the wagon and couldn't escape left or right because of the will of the driver, I now feel called upon and have the desire to tell what happened. I was never an anti-Semite. … My sensitive nature revolted at the sight of corpses and blood... I personally had nothing to do with this. My job was to observe and report on it. I am certain, however, that those responsible for the murder of millions of Germans will never be brought to justice.”
(Of course the somebody else is Adolf Eichmann. This is an assemblage of quotes from comments he made over several years. I'm not saying the crimes of the insurrectionists in general, or Ryan in particular, are similar to Eichmann. But the mindset is frighteningly similar.)
I am not sure Trump will pardon Ryan or others from January 6 who are all saying in essence “I was invited to the Capital by the President”, given his own defense is that he didn’t say anything that incited the insurrection. Like so many others, these folks may be about to discover that Trump’s self-interest outweighs any sense of responsibility to people who have followed.
I guess tRump could be stupid enough to grant pardons to some of these thugs, but it seems to me that if he does he admits he incited them in some way. Wouldn't look good at his impeachment trial as the pardons could be used against him.
Pardons are coming. Knowing Trump, he’ll announce a large list of pardons on Wednesday morning right before the inauguration, just to draw attention away from Biden. I hope the media doesn’t take the bait.
It seems to me any pardon(s) by Trump will open a constitutional can of worms.
Legal/Constitutional questions; (My own)
-Is a person eligable for a presidential pardon prior to being convicted or even indicted? Can that pardon be "post-dated" beyond the president's term in office? -Does an impeached but not yet tried in the Senate president retain the power to pardon anybody?
-Can an an impeached but not yet tried in the Senate president pardon a person prior to (or even after) that person's conviction, if that person's aledged criminal behavior was directly involved in the actions that got the president impeached?
-Can an impeached etc. president, prior to any trial, pardon himself, and is that not, per se, a confession of guilt?
The pardon power reads "except in cases of Impeachment." That has been taken to mean it cannot be used to undo an impeachment. I would argue - for what it's worth, as I'm not a lawyer - that it also means that a president impeached for an offense cannot pardon others involved in the same offense.
And, let’s hope that sharp lawyers will argue that everyone he is planning to pardon is involved in the same charges as what is in the articles of impeachment. The presidential pardon was never intended to be used by a corrupt president (who incited a violent overthrow of the government!) to a “get out of jail free” for himself and those who were complicit. Not that we would ever expect anything different, but trump has not even gone through the appropriate pardon process We need some pit bull lawyers to step up to the plate and not let this go!
An impeachment is analogous to an indictment, and we still believe someone is innocent until proven guilty. The answer to all your questions, I think, is yes, except maybe the post-dated one. The pardon power is pretty broad. Self-pardon is another question. And that one would have to be tried by the courts, and I think we all think it will be, unless Trump resigns and Pence pardons him.
It's more analogous to a negative job evaluation. It's not a criminal justice proceeding. No one goes to jail or pays a fine. (Hopefully, with Trump, that comes after he's been axed.) When you come right down to the constitutional legalities as I understand them, all you really need to fire the President are the votes in the House and Senate.
But I think your argument is the correct one; an impeached president retains all powers and responsibilities until a conviction in the Senate makes him no longer the President.
To me, these 2 people who feel no guilt are examples of shirking the responsibility of thinking about your own actions and doing the right thing regardless of what the “herd” does or they are told to do by another. To me, these people exhibit a “lemming” mentality.
Following orders is no excuse. Ryan still made a choice to act on her perception of what she heard. OtherS heard those same words, and chose not to "storm the Capitol".
Very similar indeed! I remember Eichmann’s trial vividly, watching it on my parents tv, in black and white. I was young but it always stuck in my head. I agree with your summary.
They have been radicalized and still don’t understand. They will live the rest of their lives this way. Broken humans unable to contribute anything positive or rational to their national debate.
There are additional sides of this. Listen to Jenna Ryan after her arrest in connection with the insurrection in the capitol on January 6:
“I don’t feel a sense of shame or guilty from my heart. I feel like I was basically following my president. I was following what we were called to do. He asked us to fly there. He asked us to be there. So I was doing what he asked us to do,” Ryan said. “I do feel a little wronged in this situation because I’m a real estate agent and this has taken my company. This has taken my business. I am being slandered all over the internet, all over the world and all over the news and I’m just like a normal person.”
Somebody else, speaking in 1960 after their arrest in connection with World War 2:
“To sum it all up, I must say that I regret nothing. My heart was light and joyful in my work, because the decisions were not mine. Obeying an order was the most important thing to me. It could be that is in the nature of the German. I had to watch the madness of destruction, because I was one of the many horses pulling the wagon and couldn't escape left or right because of the will of the driver, I now feel called upon and have the desire to tell what happened. I was never an anti-Semite. … My sensitive nature revolted at the sight of corpses and blood... I personally had nothing to do with this. My job was to observe and report on it. I am certain, however, that those responsible for the murder of millions of Germans will never be brought to justice.”
(Of course the somebody else is Adolf Eichmann. This is an assemblage of quotes from comments he made over several years. I'm not saying the crimes of the insurrectionists in general, or Ryan in particular, are similar to Eichmann. But the mindset is frighteningly similar.)
I am not sure Trump will pardon Ryan or others from January 6 who are all saying in essence “I was invited to the Capital by the President”, given his own defense is that he didn’t say anything that incited the insurrection. Like so many others, these folks may be about to discover that Trump’s self-interest outweighs any sense of responsibility to people who have followed.
I guess tRump could be stupid enough to grant pardons to some of these thugs, but it seems to me that if he does he admits he incited them in some way. Wouldn't look good at his impeachment trial as the pardons could be used against him.
Someone is suggesting tRump is considering blanket pardons for all of the patriots involved.
In a truly corrupt development,
Prospect of Pardons in Final Days Fuels Market to Buy Access to Trump
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/17/us/politics/trump-pardons.html?referringSource=articleShare
Yes Trump has always been all about himself and his brand. It’s sad so many people bought into his pathetic jargon.
And Jenna Ryan is so deeply convinced of her "calling" she's already calling for a pardon.
Pardons are coming. Knowing Trump, he’ll announce a large list of pardons on Wednesday morning right before the inauguration, just to draw attention away from Biden. I hope the media doesn’t take the bait.
It seems to me any pardon(s) by Trump will open a constitutional can of worms.
Legal/Constitutional questions; (My own)
-Is a person eligable for a presidential pardon prior to being convicted or even indicted? Can that pardon be "post-dated" beyond the president's term in office? -Does an impeached but not yet tried in the Senate president retain the power to pardon anybody?
-Can an an impeached but not yet tried in the Senate president pardon a person prior to (or even after) that person's conviction, if that person's aledged criminal behavior was directly involved in the actions that got the president impeached?
-Can an impeached etc. president, prior to any trial, pardon himself, and is that not, per se, a confession of guilt?
The pardon power reads "except in cases of Impeachment." That has been taken to mean it cannot be used to undo an impeachment. I would argue - for what it's worth, as I'm not a lawyer - that it also means that a president impeached for an offense cannot pardon others involved in the same offense.
I forgot about that! (Not a lawyer either.) I can’t tell you how much I hope you are right.
I hope ur right
And, let’s hope that sharp lawyers will argue that everyone he is planning to pardon is involved in the same charges as what is in the articles of impeachment. The presidential pardon was never intended to be used by a corrupt president (who incited a violent overthrow of the government!) to a “get out of jail free” for himself and those who were complicit. Not that we would ever expect anything different, but trump has not even gone through the appropriate pardon process We need some pit bull lawyers to step up to the plate and not let this go!
All great questions; I fear the answers.
An impeachment is analogous to an indictment, and we still believe someone is innocent until proven guilty. The answer to all your questions, I think, is yes, except maybe the post-dated one. The pardon power is pretty broad. Self-pardon is another question. And that one would have to be tried by the courts, and I think we all think it will be, unless Trump resigns and Pence pardons him.
The lame duck still has wings. I can’t believe he’s not out already. Too risky
"An impeachment is analogous to an indictment..."
It's more analogous to a negative job evaluation. It's not a criminal justice proceeding. No one goes to jail or pays a fine. (Hopefully, with Trump, that comes after he's been axed.) When you come right down to the constitutional legalities as I understand them, all you really need to fire the President are the votes in the House and Senate.
But I think your argument is the correct one; an impeached president retains all powers and responsibilities until a conviction in the Senate makes him no longer the President.
The scary thing is that Fake 45 may just give it to her! I think we simply cannot be surprised what his evilness will reveal in the next few days.
You got that right
To me, these 2 people who feel no guilt are examples of shirking the responsibility of thinking about your own actions and doing the right thing regardless of what the “herd” does or they are told to do by another. To me, these people exhibit a “lemming” mentality.
As well as white privilege, entitlement and arrogance.
Following orders is no excuse. Ryan still made a choice to act on her perception of what she heard. OtherS heard those same words, and chose not to "storm the Capitol".
But, soldiers are tried and convicted, correct? Being brainless is no excuse for breaking the law.
And of course these folks just wind up sounding like followers of Marshall Applewhite waiting for the approach of the Hale-Bopp comet.
Very similar indeed! I remember Eichmann’s trial vividly, watching it on my parents tv, in black and white. I was young but it always stuck in my head. I agree with your summary.
They have been radicalized and still don’t understand. They will live the rest of their lives this way. Broken humans unable to contribute anything positive or rational to their national debate.
Wow thanks