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Feb 17, 2022·edited Feb 17, 2022

What do right-wing Republicans have in common with Putin? Lying incessantly to create false realities. Of course Putin is much more strategic and adept at it. Republicans also increasingly seem to strive for Putin's success at killing political opponents. All they lack, at least for now, is the power to carry out their wishes.

How as a nation have we come to the point that politicians can flippantly call for execution of those whom they dislike — with no repercussions? It's madness.

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Feb 17, 2022·edited Feb 17, 2022

"How as a nation have we come to the point that politicians can flippantly call for execution of those whom they dislike — with no repercussions?"

Michael, perhaps this is just a natural consequence of declaring one set of people, white men, untouchable where rules, laws and ethics matter?

I rush to say: MANY white men are ethical, honest and can be trusted.

However, a significant cultural segment grew their skills inside corporations where the behaviors we are seeing now are common, some examples below:

1. False narratives are very commonly created by managers in corporations when projects fail. The failure is never admitted and success is claimed instead. The manager is then promoted and, AFTER, he is gone, THEN the project fails and the poor bloke who took the previous manager's job gets the blame.

2. Slavish obeyence and saying yes to whatever the manager above wants (which, is often impossible to figure out since a lot of them cannot lead their way out of wet paper bag on a hot summer day).

3. Assigning blame to someone who was not even on the project, when the project fails, because of poor leadership at the management level. It is, in fact, rare that a project fails because of technical missteps. It is often the case that some aspect of the project, like marketing, was overlooked and then, the technical team is blamed by the manager.

Anyway, the list of these behaviors is LONG and many white men were trained under this system AND/OR this is just white male culture and what I saw in corporations is just a manifestation of it.

But, lying, faking, blaming and hiding from reality? As common as the sun rise in America, at least what I have seen of it in my working lifetime and sometimes outside work.

I cannot tell you how much of these "low life" behaviors I saw in corporations, especially in the first 20 years of my career. I have stories of what white men did to others that would scorch your hair off as illustrations of cruelty and selfishness.

So, that is "How as a nation have we come to the point that politicians can flippantly call for execution of those whom they dislike — with no repercussions".

Reason: There are just NO repercussions for bad behaviors for white men. Period.

They/we know that.

Some of us (who pass as white) choose a different path for whatever reasons.....in my case, by the time I was nine, because of a very religious mother, I had read the Sermon on the Mount and internalized parts of it as real.

But, I have my share of bad acting too. I just tried to keep it at a dull roar. Mostly just running defense when necessary.

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OMG, this is so right on. I only worked in a corporation for 3 years, having been 'retrenched' as a tenured associate professor back in the early 1980s...one of 55, 2/3 women. Big case, sold out by the local AAUP (for those in the know close up). I retooled at an Ivy league "Alternative Careers Program" and took a corporate job. The guy who hired me liked me and my degrees, but I seemed a threat to others. My first boss tried to tell me how things really worked, but I was too naive to see, or disbelieving, or something. Anyway, when I was transferred, I witnessed first hand what you are describing. People stealing ideas, work product, passing the buck, taking credit for others' work and blaming others for failures, on and on. When I couldn't take it any more, I told my division manager I was going to resign. Her response: "You might as well. You are never going to get anywhere in this organization because you haven't learned what is rewarded, and it doesn't seem likely that you will."

I've come to recognize that the horrors you describe are rampant in organizations that are strictly hierarchical, less so in flatter organizations. Hierarchies seem to bring out the worst in people, whether they are the organizational mode for businesses, churches, governments, the military, whatever....one either joins the pathology on the climb up, sits at the bottom, or leaves. Not much room for anything else.

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Hierarchies are built for trouble. In schools where teachers and administrators are on the same playing field, much gets done, pleasure abounds, blame falls on everyone, and the kids are the beneficiaries.

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I'm going to say the same thing for law enforcement. I worked for one agency for 30+ years (28 full time) and worked for different Sheriffs in that time. I saw that "corporate hierarchy" in full bloom in four of those administrations (two from within the SO, two from other agencies) and I was a direct target in two of those administrations. The tide turned during the last third of my career, thankfully, but there was a very unpleasant 6 year stretch in there for me.

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Feb 17, 2022·edited Feb 17, 2022

I was in education for many years with administrators both good and bad and that included some of both genders. I saw all of the bad behavior people have described here and the building principal can make a big difference. We were more or less fine until one arrived who loved to stir the pot. The tension in the building went sky high. People had to be careful what they said and who they said it to. Some were a direct pipeline to this person who kept records beyond the usual records on everybody. Those people were concerned with their own positions of course. It was awful. After this person departed, I had people tell me that they were happy to come to work again. As for getting credit for what others did, I saw that at work and outside of work. Sadly, this has been often at the expense of women and POC. As for the hierarchies we see, that to me is human as I also read a lot of history and I see that nothing has changed. Part of the resentment and hatred we see at the moment is from those who feel like their status as male and/or white is slipping.

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My 35-year experience saw the same. My last three years were a nightmare due to a mentally deranged female principal.

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Yes, Michele, my experience exactly. So much depends on …!

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Just a side note. The Oregon Supreme Court just ruled that Nick Kristof cannot run for governor.

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I went back to teaching. After that 3-year corporate stint I was probably among the most grateful teachers to be found. Unfortunately, many colleges and universities have been corrupted by the hierarchical model. Note college presidents' salaries these days. See:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/executive-compensation-at-public-and-private-colleges/

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Feb 18, 2022·edited Feb 18, 2022

FYI-Can't read any of the article-blocked unless I signed up.

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The substance is that many college presidents are getting paid millions. Highest paid is Savannah College of Art, in this article listed as $5.3 million. In a WSJ report, the pay plus benefits plus deferred retirement contributions were $9.6 million. That's per year! Many others over $1m.

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I wish that picture of teacher-admin relationships and school life were true or even common in my experience. Survival techniques for administration have a way of retaining the power differences even in public education. In my years in public Ed, at three different relatively small districts, I was privileged to represent teachers in our association. Two tenures were enough. It’s a challenge recruiting representatives when the work is political and often at that time sexist. Still, my teaching was creative and rewarding and a team experience. We play different roles and our experiences are still dependent on gender and equality. I retired in 2009. I know teachers still working and with the Pandemic, everything is even more challenging. For many, early retirement looks better than ever. After all, many of us became teachers because “we only wanted to teach”

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Frank, this is my experience, too. I work part time in a school and the atmosphere is mostly lovely. I know it's not that way in all schools. In my division there are very few white men, the principal is a woman, a former Elementary teacher.

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A good school feels like a fun summer camp!

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Perfectly observed, Frank.

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This is so interesting to me, sadly, to know that my experience was also happening to "higher ups" in business! In my early 20's, I worked in NYC for a few corporations whose names you'd all recognize. I was a secretary/PA, with a very-British accent which men thought impressive. I was often treated poorly, they were all white men. I wrote their reports and letters for them, for which they would take credit. They would go out for many-martini lunches on their expense accounts, return to the office to sleep it off and call me in to do some "urgent" work (no overtime) at 4:45pm to be done that day. I was a newly-wed and wanted to go home to my husband. After I left one job, I discovered that they hired 3 women to take my place.

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Hi Sally I have great stories too about my time with a top notch bank in Boston but it all boils down to egotistical white men having all the power and getting away with behaving badly for centuries.

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I left a corporate lawyer job and they hired 3 lawyers to take my place within 90 days!!

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WOW!!! But not surprising...

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Add in, dumping older workers to hire younger ones, and cloaking themselves in righteousness for finally hiring a few Black people at the same time.

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...and we KNOW why the older folks were dumped-the younger ones were paid less therefore more profits (ignoring the skills and wisdom the older folks had that could benefit the company.)

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Managers were specifically instructed to ignore any value due to longevity at the company. I think it’s not so much that younger engineers had lower salaries, although they did, and more that they could easily be pressured into working double hours so their cost per hour was far lower.

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Or, back in the 70s, hiring a "skirt" (aka female) to brag the company/agency is buying into affirmative action. Make it a female of color and the hiring entity got a double AA credit. (BUT try not to hire a female with higher educational credentials - much too threatening.)

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Carolyn Ryan, I'm glad you saw the writing on the wall - and that the division manager said "you haven't learned what is rewarded, and it doesn't seem likely that you will." You could see clearly, you knew it wasn't going to change. You left the "pathology" behind - good for you. I was an editor in a large corporation - I had to do things right and I had backing for exactly what that was; but I also had two Black men as my supervisors. I lucked out. But one morning I got on the elevator to go up 6 floors to work - and all the faces I saw were grey. Grey faces, like dead people. At that moment I knew I didn't want to end up dead and grey, too, while pretending to be alive. It took me awhile to leave, but I did - and started tutoring and teaching at a community college. Not much money, but lots of PURE FUN and lots of satisfaction.

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I agree, congratulations to all of you who read the writing on the wall and moved on to more equal and satisfying positions. A lot depends on timing and location. And if you’ve developed enough confidence and skill to live through those dark times. It helps to have mentors and be part of supportive personal and professional relationships. Onward. At least now we’re paying attention enough to recognize the reasons many find as roadblocks: racism, sexism and gender bias, antisemitism, ageism. Add to the list. I taught anti-bias curriculum to teachers and children. We can be agents of change at the same time, trying to work beyond a system that is built on a foundation of those biases. Or leave when it’s all too much and we’re still in a position to change careers. We are always trying to move onward.

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@Carolyn - Chain Saw Al, Enron, Lincoln Savings and Loan, World Com, Lehman Bros. Maddoff - Just a tiny few of the corrupt sociopathic led organizations that were all success stories of genius and creativity in the free market.

We will never wake up in time. Digital Currency will be the next big Crash.

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Actually cryptocurrency is the next big SCAM. And yes, it will Crash too. NO surprise here

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I was surprised at the amount of energy required to run a crypto transaction. Wholecloth burnings its way to carbon fuel nirvana

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don't forget Jack Welch.

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And churches became hierarchical in spite of what Jesus taught. Quakers being one notable exception. I wonder, are other religions less hierarchical?

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Some of them, if not to the same extent as the Quakers. I am personally aware of at least one liberal Protestant church and several liberal or progressive Jewish congregations whose leadership is both local and responsible to the members.

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And Roman Catholic Women Priests are local and responsible to its members, very definitely.

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Thank you, Joan!

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The Roman Catholic Women Priests (not recognized by Vatican but legitimately ordained) lead and conduct business in a non-hierarchical way.

https://romancatholicwomenpriests.org/

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I wonder that too. Anyone?

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My entire working career has been in the private sector, from garage startups to corporate megaliths. I've never been impressed. Most of the technical teams I've worked with have been pretty good to work with. Management and sales are a whole different story. Narcissists have a competitive advantage in the corporate hierarchy.

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Joseph. Exactly right.

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Your story of toxic management is so common, My 34 year career in a well run organization is practically a fairy tale. For most of that time, I worked in a small division of a larger company, but was spun off as an independent company six years ago. It's not perfect, but in general, people spread credit for success across the team and down the chain of command. There's considerable trust between the marketing, technical and manufacturing groups. That has gotten us through some tough challenges where back-stabbing and scapegoating would have killed any chance of success. My 34 year career is far from unique. I've worked with several people who've been with the company 40+ years, and know of a couple of 50 year employees.

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"you haven't learned what is rewarded"

yep. your most important skill in a corporation? Making the boss believe he is a genius, even though the only reason he was hired after he graduated at the bottom of his class?

His Dad got him the job.

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I had very few decent bosses during my military/government contracting career. One GS did tell me "your job is to work your bosses problems". I tried to take that to heart.

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Wow, the American Association of University Professors sold out one of their own. That's pathetic. No wonder adjunct professors are having such a hard time giving it a go when the outfit that's supposed to support them is silent.

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Carolyn, thank you for sharing your work experience. The response from your manager was unusual only in its honesty. Sometimes we can’t even figure out why and how. Again our careers are dependent on more than preparation and skill. Her response: "You might as well. You are never going to get anywhere in this organization because you haven't learned what is rewarded, and it doesn't seem likely that you will." Sad to learn that truth when you work so hard. And your sacrifice if nothing else, time.

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I worked as a software engineer for over 40 years and I had more than my share of managers as described. (I had a couple of very good ones, too.) Many variations of the 6 Stages of a Project can be found on the cubicle walls, all some variation of the following:

Enthusiasm

Disillusionment

Panic

Search for the Guilty

Punish the Innocent

Praise and Honors for the Non-participants

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Good Lord, being a grunt had it’s upside

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I was in management twice. Each time, after two years, I begged out.

Just too much BS and too little that mattered.

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I remember being taught that Litany of Progress early in my career, back in the early 1980's. :-)

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Your honesty is refreshing Mike!!

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Kathleen. Thank you. I learned to temper my honesty, in many cases, from my grad school supervising professor.

As my PhD supervising professor once told me, after I had told the truth about an experiment that had not gone as I had expected but had been interesting nonetheless:

He said:

(my last name), The reason you are telling the truth is because you are not yet aware of the consequences of telling the truth.

After that, I would think carefully before divulging the truth. I am sure I graduated with PhD much faster than I would have had he never said that to me.

His statement was the best preparation I had for corporate America.

:-)

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I so appreciate your voice here, Mike. And there are multitudes of stories of very successful women whose white, male bosses or colleagues, have stolen the credit for their work since time immemorial. I have seen current ones in therapy.

Like many other countries around the world, America has had a white-privileged, male problem since they first stepped foot onto this continent to replicate what they say they left behind, under the guise of religion. The curtain has been thrown back, again, on the blatancy of the white, almighty Oz's who try control our lives within their Matrix.

Let's look at this as a very positive place we are in: "they" have come into the Light where we can see their faces and we know their names and dirty deeds. Stop calling what they do "misinformation." Call them what they are and do: Liars, spewing propaganda. Much easier to see and correct (or again, fight) the enemies of All The People when when the hooded-robes have been dropped! I thank the fools' gold narcissist for the great opportunity provided to All The People in what we thought was, as Raskin describes, "A one man crime wave". Look at the massiveness of his outright, willing GQP comrades and corporations who now act so boldly, above ground. We NEEDED them to come into the light of day with their trash, so we can take them out to the judicial curb—these so-called "citizens," who do nothing but terrorize and bully others for personal gain and power.

I am feeling really up for all that needs to be done, in this Great Experiment, knowing it will not happen overnight. Justice, education, massive numbers and voting are our weapons against oppression and bullies. We must pace ourselves for the long haul for a more perfect Union. Let's keep rolling! There are more of us than them. And we need to overhaul a lot of systems that move us forward, not backward. We need youth to join us with new ideas and energy to create a an improved form of democracy and capitalism. We must all participate in a political rebirth, a Renaissance, of our culture and learning. To move from the medieval slave/enslaver mentality to being truly Free People who agree to behaving responsibly. With Freedom comes Responsibility and TGR (The Golden Rule).

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As an old golden rule gal, I hope you are right. However, my rose-colored glasses get fogged over. If only we had a MSM that understood that Fox and clones are Goebbel's Ministry of Propaganda...

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I join you, Jeri, in wishing and hoping. My rose colored glasses were fogged up and shattered early in my career and that was when I had to learn how to “play the game” or whatever you want to call, being wary and careful and alert. “The truth shall set you free” and sometimes that means, here’s your pink slip.

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We just had almost 5yrs of a failed experiment which we never want to try again.

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ain't that the truth, sadly some in Texas were impressed. Guess most Foxers were since they don't know schitt about reality

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Pensa.

Thank you. And thank you for sharing your perspective.

""they" have come into the Light where we can see their faces and we know their names and dirty deeds. "

working on it as we speak.

:-)

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Hey Mike, how far upstateNY? I reign from Brewster.

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Agree with all you've said. The sticky part will be "We must all participate in a political rebirth, a Renaissance, of our culture and learning" I see signs of people exiting from political discourse because so much of it has become incindery. I will continue to encourage my young friends to join this rebirthing, and those my age not to loose heart.

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Thank you Pensa.

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Feb 17, 2022·edited Feb 17, 2022

Mr. S of upstate NY, While I agree completely with your conclusions regarding the acquisition of doctorates (in many fields, certainly); how that process prepares one for corporate life and how dishonesty and the cruelest forms of (white) patriarchy and hierarchy seem to be nurtured as desirable characteristics in corporations....it's still among the saddest statements about our proclivities as humans that I have read.

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TL, never reality reality get in the way of happiness.

Because, reality is never pretty and happiness is always available.

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It is, T L Mills. I said the same thing - just shorter

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The long term consequences of this culture is more than madness—it’s evil.

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So glad I escaped corporate America, found my own hell though.

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Are you out yet??

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Yep, retired years ago, now it's full-time caregiver for Alz. It's always something, you know.

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Yikes! Saying the hidden stuff out loud.

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Mike S, you are spot on. In my early years, in Education, I learned through experience to not only think long before engaging in disagreement or bringing up a problem, but find alternative strategies to close my door and teach. Before tenure was a bad word, I also learned how it protected us and allowed more change and positive discourse. Mostly I worked with women administrators. I didn’t see that much difference between the genders in administration. Survival requires adaptive behaviors.

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I think "tenure" became a bad word when universities, especially private universities, found they could save a costly buck but hiring out "adjunct professors" vs. keeping professors that have spent a lifetime of professionalism, learning, and teaching students.

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Dropping Tenure opportunities changed California colleges, especially two years institutions. Untenured means No benefits, only lower hourly pay, no security! Few teachers could live on that pay scheme. Then there were fewer courses.

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The best project manager I ever had was a woman. By far and away.

All business, no BS, all the time. Every day.

It was wondeful.

Her husband, myself, her and my wife are still close friends.

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Well,you are correct is it not ALL men and women can behave just like men in business and leadership. But as Mike and others stated here, we learn how to be business leaders mostly from male dominated institutions.

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…and how to be “good Christians” by white, male, church leaders.

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😆😄😃😄😁 ... not sure I ever learned that wisdom ... living the difference of having "made my choices" ..., oh well .... 🤨🙄🤨

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Wow, if you can't tell the truth in an academic setting, we're all in trouble. Yes, failed experiments are part of the learning experience.

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How very sad indeed

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Feb 17, 2022·edited Feb 17, 2022

Mike S, thank you for sharing the advice your professor gave you. “As my PhD supervising professor once told me,

(my last name), The reason you are telling the truth is because you are not yet aware of the consequences of telling the truth.” I wish I had connected with a mentor who could have imparted that wisdom. Would have saved me some difficult lessons. I wish things had changed but power structures and politics exist in public and private work and we’re all vulnerable to that power.

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Your posts are always thought-provoking, Mike. I worked in the for-profit field for a while and saw much of the behavior you describe, then moved to public affairs and communication for higher education. An improvement, but some of the same behavior. Then I joined the senior staff of a small women's college and learned first-hand what a difference it made in the everyday work experience when women's voices were given equal (admittedly often preferential) attention and treatment.

At the president's weekly meeting, if one of the male vp's tried to take credit for the idea of a female colleague, he was immediately called on it. Often with a chuckle and good humor. Or not. Were we perfect? Of course not. But it was refreshing.

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MaryB. I am very glad you found a place that was partly functional part of the time.

:-)

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As the end of a quarter is approaching and a bonus-dependent goal is not going to be reached, managers simply fire a big salary and thereby improve the bottom line, preserving their bonuses. Doesn’t matter that the person fired is good at their job. A “reorganization” then happens and duties are spread among fewer employees. Families upended, hearts broken… Employees treated like property. It is the same playbook from the founding of this country just dressed up to fit the times.

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Yes. a great summary.

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😥🤨😥

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And as they hide the data, you never see the axe coming until its too late. Been there, got the Tshirt

Save 20% of every dollar you earn. You’ll need it later

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I find it odd that a country that declared its freedom from monarchical tyranny ended up dominated by corporations that are driven by profit and greed with little thought for environmental impact or human flourishing. Corporations that are hierarchical with kinglike CEOs, with groveling subservient employees who have little control over their fate.

Do you think at some point in the distant future we may look back on our corporate culture as we do now on slavery?

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Sadly, your question assumes that we (collectively) will evolve morally and dare I say truly spiritually, when every marker points to the opposite.

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We can hope. I think slowly we are learning more about what is fixed in humanity and what can be set on a better path. Global warming and corporate culture are a bad combination if there is to be a distant future.

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David,

You have to read more of Isabelle Wilkerson.

Slavery gave rise to the corporation AND capitalism in the US

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I'm intrigued Mike, which of her books do you recommend?

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'Caste' and 'The Warmth Of Other Suns'

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Actually, it just transferred from jolly old England (see: Enclosures, British Industrial Revolution, etc.) And to be fair, it also transferred to jolly old E. From elsewhere. The seed is greed.

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Capitalism is a shark. You rarely find a genial one

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Morally bankrupt and corrupt. Winning and money is all that matters. Cheating pays. Thanks for your insights.

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Thank you for reading.

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I worked as a senior editor at the Harvard Business Review for almost 10 years. When I joined, I thought I might punch a hole in corporate consciousness. I like to think that some of the articles I worked on helped move the moral needle in the right direction, but came to understand just how corrupt corporate life is and yes, it all flows from the top. We can all thank Frederick Taylor, who invented the idea of 'management,' for this....

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Bronwyn.

The Harvard Business Review lauded Jack Welch as he turned GE into a Chinese manufacturing company and fired thousands of Americans.

Since that article, I have never read Harvard Busines Review again.

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Feb 17, 2022·edited Feb 17, 2022

Yes, I know Amy. I liked working with the folks in organizational behavior there. I haven't read her book but I edited some of her articles. I have my doubts.....there are very few organizations that walk their happy talk. It all starts at the top and most CEOs are trained away from any shred of humanity. I've seen the inner workings of Harvard Business School. Don't get me started.

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If you can stand it, try looking at a random number of corporate annual reports. If the company is not doing well, they never say that their business model is no good, or that they misread the market, or that their competitors are just smarter than they are. Poor performance is always attributed to some degree or other to unforeseeable circumstances. When the company does well, it's always attributable to the singular genius of the company's executive leadership.

If this weren't bad enough, there is another practice that is even worse. If the company does badly, one of the first things they do is freeze wages. If it's a sales oriented company, as opposed to a production oriented company, they restructure bonuses. If things are bad enough, they lay off workers and restructure the company. In really bad circumstances they sell off divisions and capital--which they might also do in other circumstances, but I'm just talking here about a certain case in which that happens. The point is that, while all of this drastic restructuring is going on and employees are experiencing dramatic displacement and setbacks, the top brass usually awards itself with pay increases and/or bonuses. The justification for which is that they did the right thing by sucking it up and making the tough decisions to put the company back on the course to success. As a result, executive pay only goes up, in good times or bad. The increase in income disparity over the last forty years isn't just due to tax cuts for the rich. There is also "the markets," which is another matter I won't get into, and this well worn playbook for distancing executives and owners from workers.

I admit that this idea has become sort of a hobby horse for me, but I think it factors into a lot of the psychological tension among people who reflexively vote Republican that goes mostly unexamined in mainstream media.

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Jim,

Kodak, as it sustained its long arc to Bankruptcy, used to say the exact same thing to Wall Street every quarter.

"Our strategy is on track....."

We used to listen to it together in our office and shout: "Straight to HELL".

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In 1998-99, I was a lowly engineer at Raytheon. The company did badly one of those years because the year before management had cut costs by closing manufacturing plants. As a result, orders were delivered late and the company paid hefty penalties. Rank and file got no bonuses or raises. Upper management was on a "different plan" with bonuses and raises no matter what. The CEO's raise was approximately my year's salary.

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Yes, management is always on the "different plan"

the plan that pays out HUGE money EVEN if the company goes bankrupt.

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It’s all those golden parachutes. Ill never forget the last line in the book when I read it in the 80s: [paraphrase] your golden parachute will be paid for by government largess like insurance, unemployment benefits, welfare, etc.

It’s ironic that the architects of this Ponzi scheme were planning on drowning government in the bathtub at the same time they were justifying their greed by saying “government” would take up the slack for the little people.

I’m sorry that I can’t cite the text I remember from 1984, later editions of “What Color is Your Parachute” removed that particular statement.

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Management was so convinced of the rightness of this, that they put it all into company newsletters distributed to all employees. First they took bonuses for closing those plants, then they took bonuses despite their stupidity (and greed, and utter lack of loyalty to the people who had been working in those plants) hurting the business.

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Yep, seen it many times. Middle and upper management never gets punished, only rewarded. It's always the fault of the workers who didn't meet the unreasonable deadlines.

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Mike, thank you...again.

My wife and I existed in that corporate culture you described for decades as well. The lying and abuse was SOP - whatever it took to "take out" a competitor for the next promotion. It was a suit and tie knife fight every day. We primarily tend to ascribe these horrific behaviors to political bad actors - but it has been this way since we climbed down from the trees. I will stop now, because my stories would never end...

The question we need to ask is: how we can shut down the lying by the Durhams and Carlsons? How can they be neutralized with the truth? The answer is a counter punch from major and minor news sources that slams the bogus claims.

I don't watch any cable or network news, so I would appreciate feedback from anyone who suffers through that. Is ABC, CBS or NBC pushing back? Or are they still playing the balancing act trying to retain the viewership of even those on the dark side?

We do watch the NewsHour each night. I would say that they called out the Durham fiasco well. But they tried to do it so professionally that it lost it's "punch".

A lot of big names from media, sports, politics and every arena need to be screaming "Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire". I can't hear that at all...does anyone?

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"how we can shut down the lying by the Durhams and Carlsons?"

Well, we can role model telling the truth Bill. And thank you Bill. Your posts always make me think.

Bill, I used to smile when I told a truth that I knew the boss did not want to hear.

Just to see his face try to hide the anger that he could not stop me.

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Agree the PBS report on Durham wasn’t as clear as it needed to be.

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"My wife and I existed in that corporate culture you described for decades as well. The lying and abuse was SOP - whatever it took to "take out" a competitor for the next promotion."

It sure can be bad some days.

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Sounds like the place that I work at!

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Shut down the liars? Government induced Fairness Doctrine. License Review. Don’t allow them a license if they lie. I can hear the screams from the Propaganda ministers now

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This is accurate in my experience. Telling the truth often feels like swimming upstream.

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Or swimming out the front door forever.

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Mike, you sound like a 76 year old woman who operated CNCs surrounded by white men for most of her life.

Yes, those fools hate the truth too! You are a breath of fresh air!

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Hey Mary, I love machine shops. I even like the smell of the oil that is used to keep stuff cool while running.

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That is so funny, I only noticed the smell after I retired! I always wondered why people looked at me funny if I shopped on my way home from work. I did love the work, it felt worthwhile!

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C60 coolant. My dad sold that and other machining oils. The smells in the basement lab are etched in my memory

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Same for state government. We don't need horror stories like Frankenstein and Dracula to scare us, not when we have the real monsters. Whew! wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then, I'd sleep better.

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I would add, managers claiming credit for a project's success in their company newsletter, and then disparaging the tech person who did all the work.

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Yep...just like Thomas Jefferson took credit for Monticello--built by his slaves--they built his house, grew his food, cooked his food, cleaned his house, sewed his clothes, washed his clothes and everything else that needed to be done. He basked in all of that effort as though he was the most brilliant. Worked his way up, right?

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And just like 'owners' of enslaved people took credit for their work and disparaged them, factory owners to this day consider themselves the 'makers' and those annoying employees who do all the actual work are supposedly mere 'takers.'

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Thomas is not all evil. Every public school in America owes its existence to Jefferson's tireless efforts at getting that going.

Unfortunately, his goals of an educated electorate have eroded.

And, of course, he was a slave owner.

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Mary Ellen, did you forget in your list that some slaves also slept in his bed?

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I think we worked at “companies from the same mother”. I saw this too. Promote a successful engineer into a different department to give him “experience”. He turns the culture upside down, arranges his bonus based on a dumb plan, manipulates data to earn his bonus, and then gets promoted to a different area. His plan fails as the next new guy comes in with his plan; rinse and repeat

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Dave,

No fair! You had the same boss I did!

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Mike S Upstate NY - YOU are my new hero. I do know there are many other men - yes, usually White - are NOT like you, and then a few who are like you. But honestly, the most honest, fair, open-minded Men I worked for were in fact Black. And why were they so much better, open and honest, not mean-minded - mostly, as they explain, because they had Black mamas who didn't allow that shit to happen under her roof. BUT - and you're leaving this out (and it's okay) there are also white women who acted like those white grievous men to get ahead. And I don't like or respect them at all either. If I were younger (I'm done working in corporations, or even schools, anymore), I'd be looking for jobs that didn't include White Men at all. They have done their damage. And it's HUGE

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It’s strategic madness—that has worked especially for the really hard right for a very long time. When you’re controlling the narrative, who cares about anything else? That senator from Wyoming who was always standing to the right of Mitch is a perfect example. Luckily Liz Cheney is all courage where the rest are all cunning.

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You know America is in real trouble when a Cheney is the hero of the story.

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The irony of your comment is that her real courage came precisely because she cares so much about our country and democracy that her state Wyoming will probably eject her.

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When this Country embraces the knowledge that there are shades of grey in many situations and that many people have opinions we may disagree with but at the end of the day they are good Citizens and neighbors then we will heal as a Country.

Cheney Sr. and Rumsfeld were significant engineers of a dark period in America. They made my heart ache and my blood boil. I released them to their own particular karma a long time ago.

At this extremely perilous moment in time both Cheneys are standing on the side of Democracy and are showing a rare thing in the Republican Party these days. Patriotism. Let's stop the knee jerk hatred please. There is enough of that already.

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Yes, Barbara - there are so many shades!

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She is not a senator, but a member of the House of Representatives. I see this everywhere - people think she’s a senator; maybe because she has a bigger platform than many in the House.

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Didn’t her daddy invent cunning…

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In fascist philosophy, the “law” is “love” for the leader ascended.

You are correct. It is madness.

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If Conservative Republicans continue to donate to foolishness and buy stupid MAGA regalia perhaps they will be tapped out when it comes time to find real and viable political campaigns. Oh well, one can always hope.

However, I will point out that I have some friends in Florida who regularly attend MAGA and DeSantis political rallies and events to sell MAGA and Trump gear to all, his fans. They donate all the profits from this activity to Emily’s List to elect progressive women candidates. They feel this is the best way to raise money from Conservative Republicans to help put more progressives into office. 🙏🏻

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How perfect! That isn't merely making lemonade from lemons, that is spinning gold from rotted straw!!! Bravo!

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❤️🙏🏻❤️

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The ability to lie, even if unconsciously, and to get away with it is part of the other way of looking at the world. Maybe we are at war, as HCR says, between two world views. The framing of political right wing extreme rhetoric is the selective choice of facts and manipulating them so that they seem authentic and inevitable. Democracy is neither inevitable nor eternal, lifting from Snyders view of Russian history, and unmasking these right wing ideologies and politicians is essential for democracy in the US.

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AS a former FLOTUS, Hillary Clinton is not someone you can threaten with impunity. Trump's language, although loathsome, falls short of a threat.

From appearances, ironically, Trump is the one more likely to get "locked up". Although at the glacial pace of the many investigations into his business fraud, sexual predation, and attempt to usurp power, he may die of old age first.

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Frump thrives on chaos. I am sure his blood pressure is much lower than mine!

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It is indeed frightening!

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I will never understand their obsession with Hillary and how voters on the right actually buy into such a transparently shallow cheap political trick. The ratio of press coverage from the right to *actual* wrongdoing uncovered is staggering. Benghazi, email server, now this - countless hours of air time and hearings and nothing to show for it in the real world outside of their false narrative.

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I know you ask a rhetorical question, Brad, but in answer to "their obsession with Hillary," I'm pretty sure it's about misogyny and the fact that Hillary represents their worst fear; a bright, experienced and very capable female. Hillary can be off-putting, perhaps elitist, but I voted for her because she damn well knew how to get the job done.

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Attempts to discredit her began years before she ran for any office. She was too independent to suit the local tastes when she was Arkansas First Lady.

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I was living in Arkansas at the time and I was very impressed with Hillary! When she addressed a group her speeches were intelligent. She helped families and championed for children. But in Arkansas even the women are my misogynistic. Really baffled my mind that the people being helped didn’t appreciate her. But oh the women loved Bill!

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It's socialization. I've seen it in Alabama. Women are to reflect the views of their husband (or father).

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Yes! I see it in Texas too. Women voting as their husbands and ministers tell them.

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True for the smartest woman I have known, he ruled

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Yep, and vote repub, come h€ll or high water!

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When women disparage other women who are strong and intelligent, I think it's b/c of jealousy.

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The obsession with Hillary taps into a huge powder keg of misogyny festering in the world but especially in the USA—most American men love women especially the ones who shut up and let them control the narrative.

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So glad to have found one the opposite

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I'm not sure that she's an elitist. If she were male, it wouldn`t be an issue. There is something about her that is off-putting, but she has done such amazing work for others, and I think she just doesn't suffer fools.

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What, after all, is "an elitist"? a meaningless insult from someone less educated, poised, and smart, too lazy to lift their own standards?

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Exactly! What/who ARE these “elites” which the repubs constantly vilify? Are they simply ppl with an education? Ginny and Clarence Thomas are critical of “the elites.” If they aren’t two what are they?

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They are fools of the highest order

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Agreed. (heart not working)

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Hillary reminds me of a friend who has Aspergers Syndrome.

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I think Hillary just has Bill's Syndrome.

A much worse disease to be sure.

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Aspergers isn't a disease but a different way the brain and nervous system develop. Often these folks have a higher than average intellectual ability (Albert Einstein, Bill Gates, Elon Musk) with a trade-off, though, in social and emotional skills. The condition is now classified "on the autistic spectrum", which may or may not be good. It is good in that we can now get services paid for when a person with Aspergers needs help "navigating a neurotypical world." But, being lumped in with people who cannot connect with others tends to define and often stigmatize these folks so that many a) don't realize they have it, and b) if they do, don't want to reveal it. I didn't list famous women - not because there aren't famous women with Aspergers, but because in my experience they are often not diagnosed, or don't reveal it. It's a dilemma that I hope the next generation is much more at ease with.

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Yes, Mary Pat. Thank you for posting. My 19 year-old daughter is gifted, makes great grades, is going to college, will likely get a PHD in history. Additionally, she is high-functioning (Asperger’s) on the autism spectrum. The bad a$$ she is, she owns it, tells people up front upon meeting. So very many of us (myriad in academia and other brainy careers) are not truly, completely neurotypical. Our quirks make us more interesting.

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What’s that?

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Being married to Bill Clinton

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Sophia,

I also shared how you perceived Hillary during her campaign and was both surprised and disappointed when she used her open mike to denigrate rural folks and other deplorables.

Because, I have friends who live out in the sticks, and, I don't think they are deplorable. Many of them are the hardest workers and the most honest people of my lifetime.

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It is regrettable that Clinton had absolutely zero margin of error in her words, actions, dress, mannerisms. Unquantifiable resentments were manufactured on a massive scale. And the key word that you used is "perceive". Let's face the truth. She was/is an extremely powerful woman and that is still a big no no in America today. Meanwhile trump was in the process of literally destroying us with his campaign rhetoric and no one said a word.

I have never ever heard of a policy driven thing that Clinton said being used as a reason for not liking her. We must stop this if women are going to move through the misogyny concrete wall. And frankly it is way past time for women to stop tearing each other down without clear cause.

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I recognized my internalized misogyny when I prefer Ken Jennings over Mayim Bialik on Jeopardy and my husband’s preferences are the opposite. I also recognized it when Hillary was running in that I would say, “I don’t like her, but I’ll vote for her.” (I was for Bernie) Did you ever notice that we call women by their first names and men by their surnames? Hillary, Kamala, Trump, Biden, Clinton. Except for Bernie.

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👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

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Double standard, that nobody ever apologizes for

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Mike, I thought (mostly) the same about my neighbors in the sticks, but then came the election... I see them now with a jaundiced eye.

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When I go back home to the sticks, I lots of trump flags and F U Biden stickers on pickup trucks. I hear folks talking about schools shouldn’t be talking about racism.

I know these people; I grew up with them. They would help me if I needed it. But there is a very deep vein of prejudice that runs through this land. There’s very little willingness to help “others” who aren’t like them.

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my disappointing experience as well

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And many are vulnerable to propaganda, I know many who I thought were the salt of the earth. Turned out to be Lot’s wife

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The deplorables comment was a prime example of the huge double standards in the two candidates. Drump could attack, bully, and name-call anyone and everyone, and it was fine. Hillary having an opinion, and it dooms and haunts her.

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Well said. Thank You.

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Mike, I had the impression she was referring to street gangs - not rural working folks ... if I recall, there was a lot of gangsta activity, dealing crack and other heavy chemicals and who knows what else, including gang war scenarios in the urban environment, expanding into more rural areas ... given that many of those folks have little or no confidence that "the system" and it's laws are there to serve and protect them (and it is true, isn't it?) ... in their own world, they are working too - caught up in deplorable circumstances where they grow up knowing they have to join up in their own groups and fight for their survival - it seems to me like there is not much choice about that - you do it, or you do it ....

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Comey destroyed my illusion of fairness. Such a put up job.

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Yes, her experience, her skills, her intelligence.....

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I absolutely agree. Thank you for your words.

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It’s also payback for her 1970’s work during Watergate against Nixon.

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Repubs don’t forget. Revenge is everything. Chump fit right in

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I remember when she was named “most admired woman,” then a short time later, she announced her campaign. I thought, at that moment, Fox is revving up the propaganda machine. I was not wrong.

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Exactly what I was thinking. Thanks for saying it!

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Trump cannot abide the possibility that a woman defied him and beat him at anything never mind the popular vote in an election. How dare she? In his warped world such an event is psychologically impossible and thus must be made out to be "illegitimate", obtained by cheating and lying.....wonderful projection.

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Remember how he stalked her on stage? That alone should have been enough to put him out of the running. He was ridiculous.

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Everything he did should have taken him out of the election! It never made any sense!

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Never. It was heartbreaking. Sickening.

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Still angry that the moderator did not put a stop to that ridiculous physical comedy.

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Always hear the theme from JAWS when I see that video.

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Hillary won about 3 million more popular votes—women voted like mad for her—BuT the Russians knew how to sabotage our electoral system.

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Yes, we need to remember that she won the popular vote. Soundly.

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I hope she remembers that. She is the most slandered pol in my lifetime, and I’m really old.

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I think Jimmy Carter is right up there with Hill. Certainly President Carter was very under-appreciated during his term...plus Reagan pulled an under-handed (but typical) stunt on President Carter.

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you are so right, the dirty tricks have been republican standard. Sort of like Nixon and his underhanded communication re negotiations to end the war in 1968. I remember some of that, but the truth didn't surface until decades later. I have learned one thing in my long life. Republicans play dirty, always. All the while pretending such self-righteous religious high ground. it's better than Goebbels.

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It's more like the R's know how to game the electoral system...the way the R's have gerrymandered their districts, it's easy for a Dem to win the popular vote. Not so easy to win enough electoral votes to win the election.

The R's have been angling at "control by minority" for three or four decades, at least. I have often heard it said that R's play chess while the D's play checkers. Partly, that is because of the natures of the two parties...the D's offer a big tent and therefore must run their campaigns to address the wide range of interests and causes of their diverse voter base. The R's voter base isn't quite as diverse and the R's can focus their messaging and control much of what their base hears and/or believes.

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It’s always easier for repubs to focus messaging on lies and smoke screens. Their base doesn’t seem to notice or care and the politicians don’t have to remember their promises or lies. Except when video shows the truth. Then we have gaslighting. Sigh!!

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Stuart, exactly right. tRump cannot tolerate that a woman/Hillary could possibly have pointed out (by winning the popular vote) that he's a LOSER!

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All is true that the reason he’s a LOSER is that he’s a LIAR and he’s a NUTJOB who should be incarcerated for his own good.

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Exacta Mundo

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The Italian term for this is "aria fritta" -- fried air.

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Meaning as substantial as fried air? Well said, Italians!

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... as in "hot air" (Empty, exaggerated (vaporous) talk ... interesting to note, also the name of "the leading conservative blog for breaking news and commentary covering the Biden administration, politics, media, culture, and current election" ...: HotAir.

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Me encanta.

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Feb 17, 2022·edited Feb 17, 2022

I am old enough to remember when Secretary Clinton made her first blooper. A new First Lady of Arkansas, she made a statement about not being "one of those women who stays home and bakes cookies." Oh, dear, and she is still doing it. Remember the hysterics over "deplorables." She is a brilliant, competent, honest, caring woman, and hopeless at the game of politics. Who knows why this particular set of qualities in this one woman set off the dedicated and decades' long attacks. From the beginning, Hating Hillary became a cottage industry in this country. There was a wonderful cartoon in The New Yorker. A man is pulled over by a traffic cop who stands at the rolled down window of the car, writing a ticket. The driver says, "But what about Hillary's emails??" I am a huge Hillary Clinton fan. She has done as much for women and children as any ten other people put together, but we have made ourselves a country that doesn't value women and children.

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I found her cookie statement not a blooper, but an empowerment of what I myself was doing too. Perspective is interesting, isn’t it?

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Oh I loved it, too, but it was political death. Like Clinton, every bit of trouble I've had in my life has come as the result of running my mouth. Truly. I'm trying to practice the Buddhist wisdom that says, quite clearly, "If you cannot improve the silence, do not speak."

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Political death? She rose to the height of Secretary of State, and was the first female candidate to be the nominee for a major party, and won the popular vote. That’s hardly political death. Imagine to what heights she might have risen without the misogyny.

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Perspective can be everything! Great when we can see it from myriad, right?

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❤️

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