A coup is an act of war against the country. Treason, the only crime defined in the Constitution, has as an element, "making war on the United States." Someone should be making a list with every name in this article on it, and tomorrow morning at 0600, the FBI should arrest all of them - starting with Trump in Mar A Lardo, and then after a night in the DC drunk tank, they should be arraigned Monday morning, charged with Conspiracy To Commit Treason. And Senator Graham and all the rest of the traitors in Congress should be there with them.
There is -- I believe -- no federal prohibition against capital punishment, and as I recall, the proper sentence for treason is hanging. For reasons of both practical and symbolic, I think hanging should be the punishment for the crime.
I am in deep gratitude to you for your music. I spent several years in Mendocino county teaching the college of the Redwoods nursing program. That you hail from Arcata is quite special for me. The hospital there is amazing. Your music is transcendental and gives me great,deep joy. Thank you and blessings upon you
Gardening: the earth, the stones, the worms, the roots...the knees. Mark, my late husband, said that I missed weeding in the winter. And the trees, the bushes and the flowers.
My granddaughter was born in the Mad River Hospital in Arcata. The staff there was wonderful. My daughter lived in Arcata for about 15 years. Two years ago she moved just north of Trinidad, literally across the street from Sue-Meg State Park (formerly Patricks Point State Park). It is magnificently beautiful there, a magical place for my granddaughter to grow up. My daughter is politically very progressive, as are many of the folks who populate the area. I only hope that our country doesn't turn brutally suppressive, as I fear it will if fuhrer Trump returns to power. His heavily armed sturmabteilung are ready to do his bidding. I have never been this worried about the state of our country.
Whack a Mole is not the answer to sedition. The death penalty is barbaric and imprisonment of all who were involved is impractical. Perhaps we might settle on voting Republicans out of office - that is something we can all take part in.
The argument is Both/And, not Either/Or. As HCR writes about the critical history-changing error of not holding Confederate leaders accountable and taking them back into the governmental fold, it's a dangerous precedent that gives a message of permission for politicians down the road to test the boundaries, as have the trumper insurrectionists. Vote them out AND fully prosecute them.
Sorry, but this speculation surely has nothing to do with the law, which is supposed to apply equally to all.
If this line of inaction were followed, it would be tantamount to upholding the "anything goes" approach of the
GOP cabal, a cabal that befouls the name "Republican" and continues to threaten the very existence of the American Republic.
Every minute that the conspirators go free, every minute that they fail to face the full rigor of the law, adds to the danger that they constitute, not only for the Republic but for the world.
That is why they will do their damnedest to stretch the minutes out until they have succeeded in cheating their way to seizing and securing power.
These people pose an existential threat. Their continued freedom endangers all, including themselves...
The small fish, like the qanon shaman, should not be the only ones punished. The planners and inviters should be held accountable. How is looking for ways to overturn an election with a declared winner not a crime? Far and away too much of our government rests on the good character of those in office . Good character is a flimsy foundation for a country. Tfg showed a lot of flaws in our system.
I am calling for strategic action and effective tactics. I spend a lot of time listening to CSpan broadcasts of congressional hearings and of federal court oral arguments. Administering justice fairly and well is slow going. By design.
So yes, pursue justice through the legislature and through the courts. Absolutely. But do not pretend that it will be easy or that your desired outcome is assured. Any time soon, if at all. Some comments here smack a bit of 'let someone else - congress, the courts -take care of it."
As hard as it seems, voting Republicans out of office is a more immediate solution to mitigating the existential threat of them running government.
And yes, Trump at Mar a Lago and even on the stump is less dangerous than Trump in the White House and making policy.
If you are right, the January 6th uprising has already succeeded and the republic, having no dequate defense against treason, is failing itself and failing humanity.
Seriously? Yes Republicans have been hollowing out the institutions of government since Reagan. But their Jan 6 insurrection failed. The Electoral College results were certified and the Biden Harris administration was inaugurated.
With Democratic majorities - stronger and better lead in the House - progress is being made. Justice is being pursued.
Hyperbolic defeatism is the last thing we need. It is another form of voter suppression.
We still don’t know what exactly went on in the Pentagon in those weeks and days, and there’s no “ voting them out”. Charges need to be brought to these traitors.
Hahahaha, vote them out you say? Have you been paying attention to all the “voter integrity” laws that will make that statement a joke? Also, much of the country has tuned out, dropped out and are psyched out…. Legal consequences are desperately needed or we all can just bow down
I am not defeated. But I am surrounded by cult MAGAts who buy Rupert’s bull Schitt propaganda with nary a thought to reality, and a Governor who will deliver TX to chump, no matter my vote. If he is not in jail that is…
Lin, do you not think imprisonment is a proper consequence?
We have imprisoned such a large percentage of the Black and Latin population...it is not at all impractical to imprison the seditionists. I say release the people imprisoned for marijuana charges, for racist charges, and there will be more than enough room for the seditionists and insurrectionists.
I want to see justice done. Especially regarding Trump and his henchman, in and out of government.
Elections are quicker than trials for removing miscreants from power.
For many insurrectionists and enablers, restorative justice would be more to the point than imprisonment.
Judicial reform and racial justice is part of building back better. And worth a more considered discussion.
But overall, I would think we want fewer people imprisoned. Fewer prisons and more restorative justice - bringing outlaws into dialogue, as a strategy for reeducating them and the goal of reintegrating them.
I respectfully disagree. Trump WAS removed from office, yet can it be argued that he now poses just as great a threat to the country as he ever has, if not even more? The only way to effectively deal with that threat is to see that mendacious creep behind bars. Forever.
Talking about punishments made me fantasize that TFG would save us lots of trouble and flee to Russia, or even to a tiny island his backers would have to buy for him, in case Putin wouldn’t take him in. The rest of the miscreants would be prosecuted, voted out, disbarred, bankrupted, thoroughly shamed.
You have succeeded in turning the conversation to inconsequential waffling about high principles, away from the immediate danger that we all face.
Meanwhile, the criminals are digging themselves in, incrusting themselves in the system.
Every distraction from essentials, every distraction from public safety, empowers the cabal.
Can we please stop, cut out irrelevant abstractions (including party politics) fall silent and take stock of the immeasurable danger that is still bearing down on us?
Anything else amounts to working for the adversaire.
Thank you Peter for your clear assessment. Our nation is in grave danger and those responsible must be brought to justice, which includes removing them from office.
Agreed. We need to form a coalition to save our Constitutional Republic with anyone who will help. That needs to be our single purpose. We are at the point of triaging our republic, not treating the worried well.
That's what I have been saying for months. Everything (except perhaps voting rights legislation) should be put on the back burner while all energies and resources are directed at maintaining Democratic congressional majorities in 2022, ten and a half months from now. The clock is ticking.
The cornerstone of restorative justice is education, to which the recipient must be open to listening and reflection of how to change for the better in order for justice to be served. I don't see the trump-Republican pursuers of power and profit at all costs as amenable to such education.
There are some people who belong in prison. Period. There are some who just never had a chance in this world and do benefit from being given one—education, skills, meaningful work. Why spend the equivalent of college tuition annually on prisoners for the rest of their lives when a few years of college would turn them around so to speak? But, some people had every advantage and chose the dark path. They will not be rehabilitated I believe. And that includes all these white collar mobsters that surround Trump.
Never thought I could say this but members of the GQP may not have the ability to listen to others. I wouldn't want to facilitate Restorative Justice Sessions for them. I might rip my own hair out
Restorative Justice is designed to "Repair the harm caused by crime. When victims, offenders, and community members meet to decide how to do that, the results can be transformational." Also: "It emphasizes accountability, making amends, and — if they are interested — facilitated meetings between victims, offenders, and other persons." In my limited experience with Restorative Justice, it works when the offenses are relatively (and keep in mind my relatively is tempered by 35 years in the criminal justice system) minor, and the root motivations for the crime can be traced to some socioeconomic disadvantage, drug use, or (later in the process) racially/ethnically based prosecutions vs. alternative resolutions. It does not work for people who intentionally inflict violence on others (with the caveat that the disproportionate punishment and sentencing as recently demonstrated in Missouri with Kevin Strickland's case is something else entirely to be addressed).
This isn't stealing stuff, damaging property, or engaging in drug driven behavior, nor is it criminalized conduct defined by racial or socioeconomic events. THIS IS AN ATTEMPT TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT that was done willfully, intentionally, and knowingly by elected officials of that very same government in order to preserve their power.
Thank you for this explanation Ally. This is consistent with what I thought I knew about restorative justice but considering it for a psychopathic cult leader made me blink. Appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge! 🙏
Thank You for your work and your well informed insight. Yes those who can be charged with and convicted of crimes should be. Especially at the higher levels.
But for many jail may well reinforce their extremism and further their radicalization. Or just let them cool their heels in white collar summer camp.
There are many who will get a judicial slap on the wrist for their participation which they may well wear as a badge of honor.
None of which will help them become better citizens.
Lin, I'm not an expert on restorative justice, but my wife got into it for a time, and I read Rosenberg and participated in one RJ session. The deep flaw in this is that it requires community, a sense of community, and a valuing of that community, or at least the benefits it provides.
It doesn't work well (or at all) with psychopaths and narcissists. It doesn't work well on the "successful" within a capitalist system, because they can -- essentially -- buy their way out of community.
Were I a judge in this case, it would be incumbent upon me to carefully balance the scales of justice. I am not a judge. I am a citizen, and my tailfeathers are still on fire over this brutal rape of democracy. I'm going to stand by a swift and permanent justice.
"It doesn't work well (or at all) with psychopaths and narcissists. It doesn't work well on the "successful" within a capitalist system, because they can essentially buy their way out of community. . . I'm going to stand by a swift and permanent justice."
Restorative justice can help build community. Jail does not seem to work particularly well to protect us from recidivism by the super wealthy and other sociopaths.
As for what you term "swift and permanent justice" and by which I think you mean the death penalty - imposing it is neither swift nor permanent justice. It is endlessly appealed and adjudicated. And -in a system rife with race and class prejudice - slow has served justice by saving many, who were unjustly charged and convicted of hanging crimes, from state sponsored murder.
As a proponent of Restorative Justice never thought I could say that some people simply don't have the ability to "hear" others. I'm sure that I'm wrong but I wouldn't want to facilitate the Restorative Justice process for GQP members. I don't think I could handle it. But certainly it has great possibilities and potential.
Lin, criminals should pay their debt to society. I'm in agreement with kim WA - release the Black and Latino population that are doing jail time for marijuana and give the Benedict Arnolds long, long prison time.
Right. By waving a magic wand. Presto Chango. One prison population exchanged for another. Mission Accomplished.
Can we be serious for a moment?
The issue is about being a nation of laws. Of actually *administering* justice. Of doing the hard work fairly and well.
Our work is not to indulge in revenge fantasies. No matter how prettied up by appropriating serious issues of judicial reform for frivolous purposes.
Our work is to care enough to become a united electorate to put Democrats in office. Thanks to Rep. James Clyburn's brilliant and effective primary intervention, we got the job done in 2020. Now we get to do it all over again.
The Right doesn't need tiki torch parades to unite. After Perot, no Pied Piper pipe dreams for them. Republican VOTERS have kept their eyes on the prize of the Supreme Court and all of local, state, federal government, all along.
And it's paid off - for them.
At least some people took the lesson of the civil rights movement seriously - even if only to entirely undo it.
Can we match that? We see what happens when we don't
Lin, I agree with many of your points, but, revenge fantasy??
Is it really revenge to want those in power who broke our trust, violated their oaths and are actively trying to dismantle our institutions to be convicted? Justice has favored the powerful while punishing the poor for far too long. Is it wrong to hope for better?
And, yes, we work our butts off to get out the vote too.
Absolutely. Brought to justice - in the legislature and the courts is surely a goal.
But many here seem all in for hanging people for treason or locking them up for life - in some odd prisoner exchange to release unjustly convicted persons to make room for masses of Jan 6 conspirators. Like right now. They are writing of rough justice. When even assembling and reviewing the evidence is a massive undertaking.
The problem is the GOP keeps distracting us for doing meaningful work. We need serious reform in the whole justice system. Look at these men who are wrongfully convicted and sentenced to years in prison for a crime they didn't commit due to bad lawyers and judges. But the GOP keeps throwing out metaphorical grenades that cloud the air and cause mayhem. We do need to throw our own grenades somehow and cause mayhem for them.
More grenades and distraction are not what we need to bring to the fight. We need to deflect GOP schemes with more focus, diligence, and most of all more voters to elect more Democrats. Nancy Pelosi et al are doing their part to multitask, we need to do ours.
We are the Democratic Party and are not in disarray, as much as the media would like you to believe. We are a big tent party with lots of different opinions. If your local party is in disarray then work from inside to fix it, or join forces with Swing Left or Indivisible. Please don’t allow the media to convince you the Democrats are losers or it will be a self fulfilling prophecy
I think that if given the specific charge of defeating the GOP/Trumpism, they would rise together. The latest wrangling is lawmaking, and that is messy business regardless.
That would be ok if Justice worked that way - but it doesn't...... Look at old wily Steve Bannon-he has a court date of July 18th..... And the rest of the traitors are taking the 5th......
Note that "taking the fifth" is only a get-out-of-jail card IF the person is the only witness to the crime. They can still be prosecuted on the basis of evidence submitted by others.
These are criminal acts. These acts have nothing to do with Democrats or Republicans and cannot and should NOT be resolved by voting but by the Department of Justice.
You do know that the Attorney General of the Department of Justice is a political appointee of the duly elected President of the United States? And, of course "these acts" of insurrection have everything to do with the entire apparatus of the Republican party trying to install a Republican who lost the election and disqualify the Democrat who won the election?
No death penalty. But I would like to see TFG receive several 100 year sentences w/o possibility of parole. The cell would offer a long wall shelved with books that have no pictures. He would have no access to any media device. He would need to recite a paragraph from one of the books before his plate of broccoli is offered to him.
I would just like to see the evidence collected and the case made to convict Trump of the crimes he may be justly accused of. And if convicted that he receive the maximum sentence.
You have some reading to do—starting with Dark Money by Jane Mayer and The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein. The “Citizens United” decision would first have to be repealed and that won’t happen with a Repug Packed court. The death penalty for treason is the only good answer to address the evil behind fascism—and if you doubt evil exists, what circle in hell describes someone who abuses the power of leadership to further enormous suffering while reaping benefits of office?
I think your your notion that "The death penalty for treason is the only good answer to address the evil behind fascism" may be ill considered. And that we are less concerned here with evil, which the law does not concern itself with, than with criminality - for which the death penalty is an unthinking and ineffective response.
If you do want to consider evil and fascism then I am sorry you missed my references to Hannah Arendt's The Banality of Evil:
For when I speak of the banality of evil, I do so only on the strictly factual level, pointing to a phenomenon which stared one in the face at the trial. Eichmann was not Iago and not Macbeth, and nothing would have been farther from his mind than to determine with Richard III 'to prove a villain.' Except for an extraordinary diligence in looking out for his personal advancement, he had no motives at all… He merely, to put the matter colloquially, never realized what he was doing… It was sheer thoughtlessness—something by no means identical with stupidity—that predisposed him to become one of the greatest criminals of that period. And if this is 'banal' and even funny, if with the best will in the world one cannot extract any diabolical or demonic profundity from Eichmann, this is still far from calling it commonplace… That such remoteness from reality and such thoughtlessness can wreak more havoc than all the evil instincts taken together which, perhaps, are inherent in man—that was, in fact, the lesson one could learn in Jerusalem.
lin - please explain how voting (all) Republicans out of office can be accomplished given the legislation in 33 states that enables Republican election officials to reject citizens' votes if they don't like the election results (i.e. Democrats elected over Republicans). If I understand correctly, that can only occur if the Senate passes the For the People Act and the John Lewis Act. But, of course, as pointed out above, even those Congressional acts would likely be stalled by Republican party litigation.
Yes, for all the reasons you say, and then some, voting *all* Republicans out of office is not possible. But we must try to make as good a showing as possible. And document the proof of how these voter suppression laws obstruct voting.
I went out to Cleveland Ohio to volunteer for Kerry leading up to election day. On election day I was part of a mobile team looking in on polling places. It was the first time I saw first hand the inequitable distribution of voting machines. In rich white Republican neighborhoods there were machines lining the hallways, not even set up. In poor, diverse, Democratic leaning neighborhoods there were so few voting machines that people were lined up around the block for hours in on a cold rainy day. We brought them ponchos and hot drinks - which of course has been outlawed now.
Electing as many Democrats (and Democratic committed Independents such as Maine's Angus King) as possible is the goal.
Turnout by Democrats and Independents to vote remains crucial, especially in the states working to obstruct voters' intentions if Republican legislators or election officials don't want who voters have actually voted for.
A coup is an act of war against the country. Treason, the only crime defined in the Constitution, has as an element, "making war on the United States." Someone should be making a list with every name in this article on it, and tomorrow morning at 0600, the FBI should arrest all of them - starting with Trump in Mar A Lardo, and then after a night in the DC drunk tank, they should be arraigned Monday morning, charged with Conspiracy To Commit Treason. And Senator Graham and all the rest of the traitors in Congress should be there with them.
20 years in the Florence SuperMax for each.
There is -- I believe -- no federal prohibition against capital punishment, and as I recall, the proper sentence for treason is hanging. For reasons of both practical and symbolic, I think hanging should be the punishment for the crime.
I would settle for (effective) life in prison.
Dear Mr. Nemeth,
I am in deep gratitude to you for your music. I spent several years in Mendocino county teaching the college of the Redwoods nursing program. That you hail from Arcata is quite special for me. The hospital there is amazing. Your music is transcendental and gives me great,deep joy. Thank you and blessings upon you
I am a recently retired ICU nurse...I truly respect what you do.
I'm retired, now, stone-carving and gardening. Welcome to respite from the ICU. Much appreciation for the work YOU did.
Gardening: the earth, the stones, the worms, the roots...the knees. Mark, my late husband, said that I missed weeding in the winter. And the trees, the bushes and the flowers.
Wow, I lived in Arcata about 40 years ago. Brings back memories. Thanks.
Kim, thank you for enlightening me to Mr Nemeth’s music!
I just listened to one of your compositions on SoundCloud. (The one with the tune “what do you do with a drunken sailor” woven through.
It’s completely elevating
Thank you!!!!
Hi Mitzi, can you please provide a link for that?
I can
https://soundcloud.com/joseph-nemeth-788868404
enjoy!
Ah, thank you Kim!
Over the top - out of this world - in orbit!!
My granddaughter was born in the Mad River Hospital in Arcata. The staff there was wonderful. My daughter lived in Arcata for about 15 years. Two years ago she moved just north of Trinidad, literally across the street from Sue-Meg State Park (formerly Patricks Point State Park). It is magnificently beautiful there, a magical place for my granddaughter to grow up. My daughter is politically very progressive, as are many of the folks who populate the area. I only hope that our country doesn't turn brutally suppressive, as I fear it will if fuhrer Trump returns to power. His heavily armed sturmabteilung are ready to do his bidding. I have never been this worried about the state of our country.
Whack a Mole is not the answer to sedition. The death penalty is barbaric and imprisonment of all who were involved is impractical. Perhaps we might settle on voting Republicans out of office - that is something we can all take part in.
The argument is Both/And, not Either/Or. As HCR writes about the critical history-changing error of not holding Confederate leaders accountable and taking them back into the governmental fold, it's a dangerous precedent that gives a message of permission for politicians down the road to test the boundaries, as have the trumper insurrectionists. Vote them out AND fully prosecute them.
Just for the record, yes justice pursued in the legislature and the courts *and* voting out Republican miscreants.
I agree, but no death penalty. More fitting for these people would be community service each day then back to their cells.
I think solitary confinement is more appropriate here. No communication with the outside world.
No internet access or social media either
stew in their own lethal juices, deadly
Thank you Ellie. Very nicely stated.
Sorry, but this speculation surely has nothing to do with the law, which is supposed to apply equally to all.
If this line of inaction were followed, it would be tantamount to upholding the "anything goes" approach of the
GOP cabal, a cabal that befouls the name "Republican" and continues to threaten the very existence of the American Republic.
Every minute that the conspirators go free, every minute that they fail to face the full rigor of the law, adds to the danger that they constitute, not only for the Republic but for the world.
That is why they will do their damnedest to stretch the minutes out until they have succeeded in cheating their way to seizing and securing power.
These people pose an existential threat. Their continued freedom endangers all, including themselves...
The small fish, like the qanon shaman, should not be the only ones punished. The planners and inviters should be held accountable. How is looking for ways to overturn an election with a declared winner not a crime? Far and away too much of our government rests on the good character of those in office . Good character is a flimsy foundation for a country. Tfg showed a lot of flaws in our system.
What "line of inaction" are you referring to?
I am calling for strategic action and effective tactics. I spend a lot of time listening to CSpan broadcasts of congressional hearings and of federal court oral arguments. Administering justice fairly and well is slow going. By design.
So yes, pursue justice through the legislature and through the courts. Absolutely. But do not pretend that it will be easy or that your desired outcome is assured. Any time soon, if at all. Some comments here smack a bit of 'let someone else - congress, the courts -take care of it."
As hard as it seems, voting Republicans out of office is a more immediate solution to mitigating the existential threat of them running government.
And yes, Trump at Mar a Lago and even on the stump is less dangerous than Trump in the White House and making policy.
If you are right, the January 6th uprising has already succeeded and the republic, having no dequate defense against treason, is failing itself and failing humanity.
Seriously? Yes Republicans have been hollowing out the institutions of government since Reagan. But their Jan 6 insurrection failed. The Electoral College results were certified and the Biden Harris administration was inaugurated.
With Democratic majorities - stronger and better lead in the House - progress is being made. Justice is being pursued.
Hyperbolic defeatism is the last thing we need. It is another form of voter suppression.
Adequate.
WHAT IS OUR DUTY AS HUMAN BEINGS?
Here, I must fall silent and take my leave of you.
I apologize for any excessive harshness, but the reality we face is brutal.
Godspeed.
We still don’t know what exactly went on in the Pentagon in those weeks and days, and there’s no “ voting them out”. Charges need to be brought to these traitors.
Except…the January 6 Committee.
That gang is starting to get dangerous.
Very hard charging group.
Last sentence true, but the goal is…
Channelling policy that had been "suggested" to him. But no, he was exonerated, he's said so loudly and frequently. It was all a witchunt.
Hopefully I'll live long enough to see this change
Hahahaha, vote them out you say? Have you been paying attention to all the “voter integrity” laws that will make that statement a joke? Also, much of the country has tuned out, dropped out and are psyched out…. Legal consequences are desperately needed or we all can just bow down
Yes legal consequences are essential. But very slow to achieve. By design.
Yes, GOP voter suppression will make 2022 measurably more difficult than 2020.
Defeatism is a form of voter suppression.
I am not defeated. But I am surrounded by cult MAGAts who buy Rupert’s bull Schitt propaganda with nary a thought to reality, and a Governor who will deliver TX to chump, no matter my vote. If he is not in jail that is…
The thing is this: You got to have fun while you're fightin' for freedom, 'cause you don't always win. - Molly Ivins, Texan of Blessed Memory
One can only hope.
He must be a republican.
Lin, do you not think imprisonment is a proper consequence?
We have imprisoned such a large percentage of the Black and Latin population...it is not at all impractical to imprison the seditionists. I say release the people imprisoned for marijuana charges, for racist charges, and there will be more than enough room for the seditionists and insurrectionists.
I want to see justice done. Especially regarding Trump and his henchman, in and out of government.
Elections are quicker than trials for removing miscreants from power.
For many insurrectionists and enablers, restorative justice would be more to the point than imprisonment.
Judicial reform and racial justice is part of building back better. And worth a more considered discussion.
But overall, I would think we want fewer people imprisoned. Fewer prisons and more restorative justice - bringing outlaws into dialogue, as a strategy for reeducating them and the goal of reintegrating them.
I respectfully disagree. Trump WAS removed from office, yet can it be argued that he now poses just as great a threat to the country as he ever has, if not even more? The only way to effectively deal with that threat is to see that mendacious creep behind bars. Forever.
Talking about punishments made me fantasize that TFG would save us lots of trouble and flee to Russia, or even to a tiny island his backers would have to buy for him, in case Putin wouldn’t take him in. The rest of the miscreants would be prosecuted, voted out, disbarred, bankrupted, thoroughly shamed.
You have succeeded in turning the conversation to inconsequential waffling about high principles, away from the immediate danger that we all face.
Meanwhile, the criminals are digging themselves in, incrusting themselves in the system.
Every distraction from essentials, every distraction from public safety, empowers the cabal.
Can we please stop, cut out irrelevant abstractions (including party politics) fall silent and take stock of the immeasurable danger that is still bearing down on us?
Anything else amounts to working for the adversaire.
Thank you Peter for your clear assessment. Our nation is in grave danger and those responsible must be brought to justice, which includes removing them from office.
Agreed. We need to form a coalition to save our Constitutional Republic with anyone who will help. That needs to be our single purpose. We are at the point of triaging our republic, not treating the worried well.
Sorry, idiot French spellcheck. ADVERSARY.
I agree, Peter. So often I speak with fellow liberals about what is coming and am met with high minded phrases about what should be happening.
That's what I have been saying for months. Everything (except perhaps voting rights legislation) should be put on the back burner while all energies and resources are directed at maintaining Democratic congressional majorities in 2022, ten and a half months from now. The clock is ticking.
The cornerstone of restorative justice is education, to which the recipient must be open to listening and reflection of how to change for the better in order for justice to be served. I don't see the trump-Republican pursuers of power and profit at all costs as amenable to such education.
There are some people who belong in prison. Period. There are some who just never had a chance in this world and do benefit from being given one—education, skills, meaningful work. Why spend the equivalent of college tuition annually on prisoners for the rest of their lives when a few years of college would turn them around so to speak? But, some people had every advantage and chose the dark path. They will not be rehabilitated I believe. And that includes all these white collar mobsters that surround Trump.
Exactly this.
Never thought I could say this but members of the GQP may not have the ability to listen to others. I wouldn't want to facilitate Restorative Justice Sessions for them. I might rip my own hair out
https://johnpavlovitz.com/2021/12/11/why-ive-lost-respect-for-my-republican-friends/
I often quibble with Mr. Pavlovitz, but his heart is largely in the right place. It seems he's come to a stark realization as well.
Restorative Justice is designed to "Repair the harm caused by crime. When victims, offenders, and community members meet to decide how to do that, the results can be transformational." Also: "It emphasizes accountability, making amends, and — if they are interested — facilitated meetings between victims, offenders, and other persons." In my limited experience with Restorative Justice, it works when the offenses are relatively (and keep in mind my relatively is tempered by 35 years in the criminal justice system) minor, and the root motivations for the crime can be traced to some socioeconomic disadvantage, drug use, or (later in the process) racially/ethnically based prosecutions vs. alternative resolutions. It does not work for people who intentionally inflict violence on others (with the caveat that the disproportionate punishment and sentencing as recently demonstrated in Missouri with Kevin Strickland's case is something else entirely to be addressed).
This isn't stealing stuff, damaging property, or engaging in drug driven behavior, nor is it criminalized conduct defined by racial or socioeconomic events. THIS IS AN ATTEMPT TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT that was done willfully, intentionally, and knowingly by elected officials of that very same government in order to preserve their power.
Thank you for this explanation Ally. This is consistent with what I thought I knew about restorative justice but considering it for a psychopathic cult leader made me blink. Appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge! 🙏
Thank You for your work and your well informed insight. Yes those who can be charged with and convicted of crimes should be. Especially at the higher levels.
But for many jail may well reinforce their extremism and further their radicalization. Or just let them cool their heels in white collar summer camp.
There are many who will get a judicial slap on the wrist for their participation which they may well wear as a badge of honor.
None of which will help them become better citizens.
Thank you.
Helpful link: http://restorativejustice.org/#sthash.oOIfuNfc.dpbs
Thank you, Ally. This matches my observation.
Lin, I'm not an expert on restorative justice, but my wife got into it for a time, and I read Rosenberg and participated in one RJ session. The deep flaw in this is that it requires community, a sense of community, and a valuing of that community, or at least the benefits it provides.
It doesn't work well (or at all) with psychopaths and narcissists. It doesn't work well on the "successful" within a capitalist system, because they can -- essentially -- buy their way out of community.
Were I a judge in this case, it would be incumbent upon me to carefully balance the scales of justice. I am not a judge. I am a citizen, and my tailfeathers are still on fire over this brutal rape of democracy. I'm going to stand by a swift and permanent justice.
"It doesn't work well (or at all) with psychopaths and narcissists. It doesn't work well on the "successful" within a capitalist system, because they can essentially buy their way out of community. . . I'm going to stand by a swift and permanent justice."
Restorative justice can help build community. Jail does not seem to work particularly well to protect us from recidivism by the super wealthy and other sociopaths.
As for what you term "swift and permanent justice" and by which I think you mean the death penalty - imposing it is neither swift nor permanent justice. It is endlessly appealed and adjudicated. And -in a system rife with race and class prejudice - slow has served justice by saving many, who were unjustly charged and convicted of hanging crimes, from state sponsored murder.
“Elections are quicker than trials for removing miscreants from power.”
You have a point…and not being in power would be “prison” for them!
As a proponent of Restorative Justice never thought I could say that some people simply don't have the ability to "hear" others. I'm sure that I'm wrong but I wouldn't want to facilitate the Restorative Justice process for GQP members. I don't think I could handle it. But certainly it has great possibilities and potential.
I agree, d017. Restorative Justice requires all to listen and learn. Listening is not in the wheel house of many of these people who wish to MAGA.
Unfortunately many have been brainwashed by Fox, Limbaugh, Alex Jones, QANON, etc
There is training for mediation.
Amen, my friend
Crimes need punishment. Otherwise there is no rule of law.
Trump, who committed treason, needs to be arrested and placed in jail with other lawbreakers.
IF the US does not do this, then, it will be clear that anyone of large girth with lots of money can do anything they want, as long as they are white.
Now you are talking!
Lin, criminals should pay their debt to society. I'm in agreement with kim WA - release the Black and Latino population that are doing jail time for marijuana and give the Benedict Arnolds long, long prison time.
Right. By waving a magic wand. Presto Chango. One prison population exchanged for another. Mission Accomplished.
Can we be serious for a moment?
The issue is about being a nation of laws. Of actually *administering* justice. Of doing the hard work fairly and well.
Our work is not to indulge in revenge fantasies. No matter how prettied up by appropriating serious issues of judicial reform for frivolous purposes.
Our work is to care enough to become a united electorate to put Democrats in office. Thanks to Rep. James Clyburn's brilliant and effective primary intervention, we got the job done in 2020. Now we get to do it all over again.
The Right doesn't need tiki torch parades to unite. After Perot, no Pied Piper pipe dreams for them. Republican VOTERS have kept their eyes on the prize of the Supreme Court and all of local, state, federal government, all along.
And it's paid off - for them.
At least some people took the lesson of the civil rights movement seriously - even if only to entirely undo it.
Can we match that? We see what happens when we don't
Lin, I agree with many of your points, but, revenge fantasy??
Is it really revenge to want those in power who broke our trust, violated their oaths and are actively trying to dismantle our institutions to be convicted? Justice has favored the powerful while punishing the poor for far too long. Is it wrong to hope for better?
And, yes, we work our butts off to get out the vote too.
Absolutely. Brought to justice - in the legislature and the courts is surely a goal.
But many here seem all in for hanging people for treason or locking them up for life - in some odd prisoner exchange to release unjustly convicted persons to make room for masses of Jan 6 conspirators. Like right now. They are writing of rough justice. When even assembling and reviewing the evidence is a massive undertaking.
The problem is the GOP keeps distracting us for doing meaningful work. We need serious reform in the whole justice system. Look at these men who are wrongfully convicted and sentenced to years in prison for a crime they didn't commit due to bad lawyers and judges. But the GOP keeps throwing out metaphorical grenades that cloud the air and cause mayhem. We do need to throw our own grenades somehow and cause mayhem for them.
More grenades and distraction are not what we need to bring to the fight. We need to deflect GOP schemes with more focus, diligence, and most of all more voters to elect more Democrats. Nancy Pelosi et al are doing their part to multitask, we need to do ours.
*"from" doing meaningful work...
Mitch McConnell set up the prize of the Supreme Court.
Amen
Besides, the Democratic party is in such disarray right now, I'm very doubtful it could make a strong enough showing at the polls.
The Democratic party is not some abstract entity. We all who are opposed to Trumpism must unite and make a strong showing.
What makes you think the Democrats are in disarray? News headlines always say that, but that’s their game. It never made sense.
Exactly! Look at the bills passed under Pelosi's leadership in the House!
Exactly
We are the Democratic Party and are not in disarray, as much as the media would like you to believe. We are a big tent party with lots of different opinions. If your local party is in disarray then work from inside to fix it, or join forces with Swing Left or Indivisible. Please don’t allow the media to convince you the Democrats are losers or it will be a self fulfilling prophecy
Hear, hear!
Thanks to the two Trojan horses
I think that if given the specific charge of defeating the GOP/Trumpism, they would rise together. The latest wrangling is lawmaking, and that is messy business regardless.
That would be ok if Justice worked that way - but it doesn't...... Look at old wily Steve Bannon-he has a court date of July 18th..... And the rest of the traitors are taking the 5th......
While poor and working class rot in prisons waiting to get a hearing
Note that "taking the fifth" is only a get-out-of-jail card IF the person is the only witness to the crime. They can still be prosecuted on the basis of evidence submitted by others.
Well that’s something. I guess
Amen!
These are criminal acts. These acts have nothing to do with Democrats or Republicans and cannot and should NOT be resolved by voting but by the Department of Justice.
You do know that the Attorney General of the Department of Justice is a political appointee of the duly elected President of the United States? And, of course "these acts" of insurrection have everything to do with the entire apparatus of the Republican party trying to install a Republican who lost the election and disqualify the Democrat who won the election?
No death penalty. But I would like to see TFG receive several 100 year sentences w/o possibility of parole. The cell would offer a long wall shelved with books that have no pictures. He would have no access to any media device. He would need to recite a paragraph from one of the books before his plate of broccoli is offered to him.
I would just like to see the evidence collected and the case made to convict Trump of the crimes he may be justly accused of. And if convicted that he receive the maximum sentence.
Love you lin ❤️❤️
I like the way you think!
😂😂😂
Nice!!
Yes, feed him veggies, but flavorful is OK. This guy badly needs to improve his health and clear his body and mind.
Nice, but I don't see that happening. Their hold on power is too strong and the midterm elections loom.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. We have agency. Defeatism is another form of voter suppression.
You have some reading to do—starting with Dark Money by Jane Mayer and The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein. The “Citizens United” decision would first have to be repealed and that won’t happen with a Repug Packed court. The death penalty for treason is the only good answer to address the evil behind fascism—and if you doubt evil exists, what circle in hell describes someone who abuses the power of leadership to further enormous suffering while reaping benefits of office?
Be gentle and kind to each other, good people. We are a wonderful group of friends and allies. I happen to like everybody on this thread. 😘
You are a gentleman, Roland.
I think your your notion that "The death penalty for treason is the only good answer to address the evil behind fascism" may be ill considered. And that we are less concerned here with evil, which the law does not concern itself with, than with criminality - for which the death penalty is an unthinking and ineffective response.
If you do want to consider evil and fascism then I am sorry you missed my references to Hannah Arendt's The Banality of Evil:
For when I speak of the banality of evil, I do so only on the strictly factual level, pointing to a phenomenon which stared one in the face at the trial. Eichmann was not Iago and not Macbeth, and nothing would have been farther from his mind than to determine with Richard III 'to prove a villain.' Except for an extraordinary diligence in looking out for his personal advancement, he had no motives at all… He merely, to put the matter colloquially, never realized what he was doing… It was sheer thoughtlessness—something by no means identical with stupidity—that predisposed him to become one of the greatest criminals of that period. And if this is 'banal' and even funny, if with the best will in the world one cannot extract any diabolical or demonic profundity from Eichmann, this is still far from calling it commonplace… That such remoteness from reality and such thoughtlessness can wreak more havoc than all the evil instincts taken together which, perhaps, are inherent in man—that was, in fact, the lesson one could learn in Jerusalem.
I’d be willing to bet lin has read those and volumes upon volumes of others judging by what I’ve been reading
Love you Dawna ❤️❤️
lin - please explain how voting (all) Republicans out of office can be accomplished given the legislation in 33 states that enables Republican election officials to reject citizens' votes if they don't like the election results (i.e. Democrats elected over Republicans). If I understand correctly, that can only occur if the Senate passes the For the People Act and the John Lewis Act. But, of course, as pointed out above, even those Congressional acts would likely be stalled by Republican party litigation.
Yes, for all the reasons you say, and then some, voting *all* Republicans out of office is not possible. But we must try to make as good a showing as possible. And document the proof of how these voter suppression laws obstruct voting.
I went out to Cleveland Ohio to volunteer for Kerry leading up to election day. On election day I was part of a mobile team looking in on polling places. It was the first time I saw first hand the inequitable distribution of voting machines. In rich white Republican neighborhoods there were machines lining the hallways, not even set up. In poor, diverse, Democratic leaning neighborhoods there were so few voting machines that people were lined up around the block for hours in on a cold rainy day. We brought them ponchos and hot drinks - which of course has been outlawed now.
Electing as many Democrats (and Democratic committed Independents such as Maine's Angus King) as possible is the goal.
Turnout by Democrats and Independents to vote remains crucial, especially in the states working to obstruct voters' intentions if Republican legislators or election officials don't want who voters have actually voted for.
Yes, Yes. May I please like your comment as many times as the number of voters we need?
If the people call for prison, he'll go free. If the people call for hanging, he might get exile, or at least exile-from-politics.
Prison is not impractical. Ask any Republican legislator. They left putting people in prison. Fortunately we have lots of them!
Ah, a fellow musician - and activist! 🎵
Hang together, or, separately, eh?