Literally, Babbit was a civilian, not an active duty soldier so both perspectives cannot be accurate at the same time.
Lawrence is correct. Trump did instigate and even foment the violence his cult committed after his speech. But, again, none of that absolves Babbit from her choices to act as she did.
Literally, Babbit was a civilian, not an active duty soldier so both perspectives cannot be accurate at the same time.
Lawrence is correct. Trump did instigate and even foment the violence his cult committed after his speech. But, again, none of that absolves Babbit from her choices to act as she did.
I think both are correct. Two thoughts can be correct at the same time. Either/or-One Best Option is a meme that leads constantly to trouble. Multivariate analysis is the answer.
I am no longer sure what you are referring to so will end my part of this conversation with "I agree to disagree on what I think you are saying". I wish you well & hope it is a good day.
If I may interrupt here? I think Fern is saying that neither perspective is wrong in Kasumii's and Lawrence's posts, that it is a 'both/and' rather than an 'either/or' situation.
As Kasumii is a veteran, that is an important part of their (not sure which pronoun to use so I'll use the ambiguous they/them/their) perspective on the actions of Babbit.
Lawrence's perspective is to look at external influences that may have influenced Babbit's choices.
From my perspective, all participants need to be held accountable. Should there happen to have been some among the mob who were indeed incapable of making life decisions away from the guidance of caregivers, there should probably be some lenience. For the rest, instigators and performers of physical action, accountability is the only solution.
One problem with letting anyone capable of adult decisions off the hook because of 'brainwashing', 'blackmail', or any other form of mental/emotional coercion is that TFG could also use that argument, just by citing his niece's documentation of his childhood trauma at the hands of neglectful and abusive parents.
Your thoughts are welcome Lanita and I don't see your offering of them as interrupting.
I agree with what you've added here, especially the 3rd paragraph. Thank you for saying it better than I did. Whenever anyone breaks a law the consequence and/or punishment should be guided by the situation, the crime committed and the mental capacity of the perpetrator.
As you stated in your 4th paragraph, brainwashing and mental & emotional coercion in adults are not - in my words now - a get out of jail free card. For history's perspective we can always look at the Nuremberg Trials.
I use she/her pronouns if that helps. Thank you for being inclusive since you did not know.
Your are correct - my being a veteran does influence my thoughts about Babbit's actions given that she was trained as I was in what sedition and treason are. I am also influenced by my upbringing in being brainwashed by both white supremacy at home by my mother and stepfather and by being made to belong to a severely misogynistic, hate and fear based religion while a minor. From living through it and from earning my degree in it I do understand brainwashing. I know that even with my background in it I too could be susceptible given the right conditions. We all could be. Yet, we are still responsible for what we take in and what we do with it. And, to be fully transparent at what influences my take on this subject - I am also so very tired of people claiming their actions weren't their fault because so and so told me A, B & C and I chose to blindly believed them. I have heard that bullshit excuse from my parents to military leaders to politicians to well, quite a few people now. I do understand every situation can have mitigating factors and nuances and that life itself is rarely purely black or white. But this whole take of "it's all trump's fault" when his followers/cultists get into legal trouble and want to get out of it without consequence is seriously wearing on me. I'm not surprised, just really tired of it.
From your posts today and other days, I think there were some similarities in the ways we were raised. That we both turned out to be ethical, capable of good trouble, and determined to think for ourselves is pretty fantastic.
While I never give myself the out that my poor decisions are the fault of my fundamentalist parents, I realize that they neglected to teach me some important lessons that I'm still learning. However, knowing they did their job poorly in some aspects, I take full responsibility and bear the full brunt of my own behaviors.
Same here. I was taught extremely little about real life and society and had to learn in a hurry as an adult as I went along. After making a few spectacularly bad decisions based on subconsciously held dysfunctional lessons from my childhood I realized that I had to take it all apart, examine it in the light of day and see if any of it matched the kind of person I wanted to be. And like you, even though those decisions were clearly based on what I was taught, I was an adult and I had made them, so I was responsible. Own it, apologize when necessary and keep going. Keep learning. Which I hope to do until I shuffle off my mortal coil.
IтАЩm so glad you found that it might be interesting Kasumii. I always love your comments. The Patty Hearst/SLA bank robbery happened when I was young and impressionable and jump started a life long fascination with our human mind. The paper references lots of other sources, so itтАЩs something that will take me awhile to work my way through. My hope is that we will see a day before we destroy earth that we figure out how to prevent genocide at the hands of murderous demagogues empowered by their followers. Neuroscience will light the path.
Fundamentalism, regardless of particular stripe, creates tremendous challenges for children raised in such horrid circumstances. Although I escaped at 15, that is unusual. So many people become trapped in the lies. We are ever so amazing for having gotten out. Truly, cheers for us, survivors, nay, thrivers, in life. Thanks for a thoughtful conversation. And endless blessings upon us all.
Literally, Babbit was a civilian, not an active duty soldier so both perspectives cannot be accurate at the same time.
Lawrence is correct. Trump did instigate and even foment the violence his cult committed after his speech. But, again, none of that absolves Babbit from her choices to act as she did.
I think both are correct. Two thoughts can be correct at the same time. Either/or-One Best Option is a meme that leads constantly to trouble. Multivariate analysis is the answer.
'The given metaphorical and literal perspectives on this matter, differ without either being inaccurate.'
I am no longer sure what you are referring to so will end my part of this conversation with "I agree to disagree on what I think you are saying". I wish you well & hope it is a good day.
If I may interrupt here? I think Fern is saying that neither perspective is wrong in Kasumii's and Lawrence's posts, that it is a 'both/and' rather than an 'either/or' situation.
As Kasumii is a veteran, that is an important part of their (not sure which pronoun to use so I'll use the ambiguous they/them/their) perspective on the actions of Babbit.
Lawrence's perspective is to look at external influences that may have influenced Babbit's choices.
From my perspective, all participants need to be held accountable. Should there happen to have been some among the mob who were indeed incapable of making life decisions away from the guidance of caregivers, there should probably be some lenience. For the rest, instigators and performers of physical action, accountability is the only solution.
One problem with letting anyone capable of adult decisions off the hook because of 'brainwashing', 'blackmail', or any other form of mental/emotional coercion is that TFG could also use that argument, just by citing his niece's documentation of his childhood trauma at the hands of neglectful and abusive parents.
Your thoughts are welcome Lanita and I don't see your offering of them as interrupting.
I agree with what you've added here, especially the 3rd paragraph. Thank you for saying it better than I did. Whenever anyone breaks a law the consequence and/or punishment should be guided by the situation, the crime committed and the mental capacity of the perpetrator.
As you stated in your 4th paragraph, brainwashing and mental & emotional coercion in adults are not - in my words now - a get out of jail free card. For history's perspective we can always look at the Nuremberg Trials.
I use she/her pronouns if that helps. Thank you for being inclusive since you did not know.
Your are correct - my being a veteran does influence my thoughts about Babbit's actions given that she was trained as I was in what sedition and treason are. I am also influenced by my upbringing in being brainwashed by both white supremacy at home by my mother and stepfather and by being made to belong to a severely misogynistic, hate and fear based religion while a minor. From living through it and from earning my degree in it I do understand brainwashing. I know that even with my background in it I too could be susceptible given the right conditions. We all could be. Yet, we are still responsible for what we take in and what we do with it. And, to be fully transparent at what influences my take on this subject - I am also so very tired of people claiming their actions weren't their fault because so and so told me A, B & C and I chose to blindly believed them. I have heard that bullshit excuse from my parents to military leaders to politicians to well, quite a few people now. I do understand every situation can have mitigating factors and nuances and that life itself is rarely purely black or white. But this whole take of "it's all trump's fault" when his followers/cultists get into legal trouble and want to get out of it without consequence is seriously wearing on me. I'm not surprised, just really tired of it.
Thanks again for your input. I appreciate it.
From your posts today and other days, I think there were some similarities in the ways we were raised. That we both turned out to be ethical, capable of good trouble, and determined to think for ourselves is pretty fantastic.
While I never give myself the out that my poor decisions are the fault of my fundamentalist parents, I realize that they neglected to teach me some important lessons that I'm still learning. However, knowing they did their job poorly in some aspects, I take full responsibility and bear the full brunt of my own behaviors.
Same here. I was taught extremely little about real life and society and had to learn in a hurry as an adult as I went along. After making a few spectacularly bad decisions based on subconsciously held dysfunctional lessons from my childhood I realized that I had to take it all apart, examine it in the light of day and see if any of it matched the kind of person I wanted to be. And like you, even though those decisions were clearly based on what I was taught, I was an adult and I had made them, so I was responsible. Own it, apologize when necessary and keep going. Keep learning. Which I hope to do until I shuffle off my mortal coil.
I wondered given the subject matter (and I agree with pretty much all of this present conversation) if folks might find this interesting. IтАЩve only read the abstract as it is quite long but a subject of great interest to me so I downloaded the paper. It will be a couple of days before I can read all of it. Just in case others have an interest: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264341200_Implanted_Choice_From_Prisoners_of_War_to_Patty_Hearst_to_Lee_Boyd_Malvo_Examining_the_Past_to_Determine_if_there_is_Room_for_a_Modern_Criminal_Defence_of_Brainwashing
That looks interesting Christy. Thanks for the link.
IтАЩm so glad you found that it might be interesting Kasumii. I always love your comments. The Patty Hearst/SLA bank robbery happened when I was young and impressionable and jump started a life long fascination with our human mind. The paper references lots of other sources, so itтАЩs something that will take me awhile to work my way through. My hope is that we will see a day before we destroy earth that we figure out how to prevent genocide at the hands of murderous demagogues empowered by their followers. Neuroscience will light the path.
Thanks for this citation. Can't wait to read it. the whole Patty Hearst situation was really bizarre and interesting.
Thank you for the compliment Christy. I appreciate that.
It will take me a few days to read the article & then let it all percolate - it definitely looks interesting.
Fundamentalism, regardless of particular stripe, creates tremendous challenges for children raised in such horrid circumstances. Although I escaped at 15, that is unusual. So many people become trapped in the lies. We are ever so amazing for having gotten out. Truly, cheers for us, survivors, nay, thrivers, in life. Thanks for a thoughtful conversation. And endless blessings upon us all.
The guilt of one of them does not absolve the other.
Amen, sister.