A friend pointed out that these were your inspirational closing thoughts for your history and politics conversation yesterday, HCR. I thought that I would post them here, in case any of this wonderful community missed them -- as I had.
"Somebody asked me to tell you it's going to be ok. I can't tell you it's going to be ok, because I'm a prophet of the past - not of the future. But I can tell you this. What Donald Trump and the Republicans want is for you to think you are not powerful. They want to think it's a done deal. They want you to think you have to do whatever they say. And the truth is they know that they are hideously outnumbered. They would not have to gerrymander the states. They would not have to steal elections. They would not have to suppress the vote. They would not have to pack the Supreme Court if they didn't know that there are far more of us than there are of them.
"I would urge you not to despair at all, but rather to recognize that the future really does belong to us. And when you think about that, and I know everyone is scared, especially since we are all stuck at home, and we can't spend time with people that think like us and all that, but we are really powerful. Just the number of people who follow me on FaceBook alone - we are almost up to a million people, and you all have family members and friends. That right there is a lot of people, and you know we are a good community. And here's the news flash. The people who are trying to take America into an oligarchy, which is what I believe they are doing, are powerful people, and they are gaming the system in a lot of ways, it's true.
"But I promise you, there are not the kind of numbers on their team that there are on those of us who want to see a democracy in which every person is equal before the law, and every person has equality of access to resources and equality of opportunity. THAT is the American dream. And the guy I learned that from was Abraham Lincoln. And I've still got to believe that that is still the vision of America that is going to take us into the future."
~Heather Cox Richardson, History & Politics Chat, 10/27/20
Thank you, Heather, for your deeply grounding perspective, and thank you, Rowshan, for sharing Heather's wise words. I had heard her say them at her chat, but to read them is balm for the soul. Also I can reread them now many times! Most thoughtful of you!!
Thank you! I enjoyed being able to read these words in addition to listening to the chat. Not sure how I would be coping without Heather and this community.
I laughed out loud at the papers disappearing! What school teacher wouldn’t?! Maybe the dog ate his homework.
Hey Nicklaus! Colonial wants their plaid jacket back! Jerk!
I see more stirrings of Biden/Harris around Ft Worth, TX, as time marches to Decision 2020. Bumper stickers, yard signs, people talking. Still long lines at the early voting polls! Can I dare to hope?!
Thanks for highlighting the coldness of the Pence campaign's response to the Covid surges...tone-deaf doesn't touch it. To focus on Pence's well-being when so many are suffering that the system can't handle any more...clear as a bell, these guys do not care how you're doing. I so hope that message sinks in. Farther.
“ Meanwhile, with no verification and dubious origins, the story of Hunter Biden’s laptop is dying, and likely will have little of the impact for which Trump was clearly hoping. ”
Not true, unfortunately. I am surrounded by Trump supporters. They all believe this and still believe the Hillary email garbage. They also believe Biden is a rapist and Trump isn’t. They also want States responsible for everything and Federal for very little. They want each State to be little countries.
I wish America could have an Ebenezer Scrooge or It’s a Wonderful Life moment and live the life they generate through Trump’s win but through Trump’s victims perspectives.
Lisa, I have seen the same in Trump supporters. Anything negative about Trump is treated as though it were just so much wind. It can't be true because Trump is perfect. I don't get it, but then, I read everything I can get my hands on, and don't "settle" for what Fox News (tongue in cheek) and Rush Limbaugh try to shove down my throat. Additionally, I am quickly approaching retirement (I can only hope) and I see what they are trying to do to Social Security and Medicare, but apparently their supporters don't...what happens when the ACA is abolished and these people are out of health insurance? Not all 20+ million can be Democrats...at least some of them have to be Trump supporters. What happens when those of us on Social Security no longer get a check (2023 will be the end of it if they get rid of it)? Loads of these folks are Trump supporters. And let's not even get into our standing in the world. I could go on. Let's just say those with blinders on had better get some glasses, because what they are looking through right now are not rose-colored.
I have a somewhat funny story: About 4-5 years ago, my in-laws asked if I would come to their home in Kauai and babysit their dog while they took a vacation to Japan. I jumped at the chance to go. I took a friend and after we arrived, my in-laws took us to their home. They had a spectacular view of the ocean. The following day, took them back to the airport to catch their flight. Returned home and went into their bedroom where I was going to sleep. On the shelves, sat 5 Bill O’Reilly books. I almost threw up! Later on, my sister-in-law sent me text asking, for my bro-in-law, if his books were still intact. I told her “Yes and they are in a bonfire as we speak.”.
I will never be able to retire. I hoped to collect Social Security and work part time until I couldn’t continue anymore. Then I would choose a fast end rather than slow one being hungry and living on the streets.
Now I am going to have to pray I don’t get fired once I’m past my prime because I’ll never get another job with a living wage and healthcare benefits. So my end plan will likely come sooner rather than later.
Lisa, while I understand your fears and predictions, I am not ready to throw in the towel on our country, our democracy, or my life. It looks rough, but as Heather and others are saying, WE outnumber THEM. I have more faith in the Good than that. This fight won’t be over with this election, but it will be over if everyone GIVES UP. Peace be with all of us.
I understand your feelings! That being said, it's never the same thing twice, even with similar outcomes. New lessons, new challenges, new support structures. Lifetime work, lifetime lessons, and I'm so glad to have this forum to share feelings and ideas.
I wonder something: when trump and his public sycophants cease bellowing (eventually) and some form of calm returns, will these devoted supporters gradually realize life under trump was actually hell ...
I saw this posted on Twitter by Dr Bandy X Lee, a Forensic Psychiatrist:
“”A reporter whose grandparents were refugees from Nazi Germany related to me: “I cannot help but remember a conversation I had with my grandfather ... about the firebombing of Dresden, whether he thought the Allies should be reproached for targeting civilians....
... He said—I remember this well—that it was a necessity, because nothing short of the sight of SEEING THEIR CITIES LEVELED would have broken the spell. The German public, he said, was not open to reason. They could not be persuaded to abandon Hitler....”
That comment haunted her, she said.
Needless to say, we are seeing the same phenomenon here, and every day that Donald Trump has exposure to the public, he spellbinds his followers ever more deeply, as mental health experts are precisely the ones banned from comment.””
He has given them a rare moment when they might somehow, and against all reason, feel that they are the masters of the universe. After Trump there will be much anger.. but also grief at their "loss" of such a high flying status. The grief will follow the normal Kubler Ross cycle and settle into nostalgia for past glories...untill the next time!
Well said. I think you have unveiled the problem, Stuart. For once, the troglodytes feel empowered like Masters of the Universe. They do not want to lose that worldview, and will be angry when they do... I think an underlying issue going forward is how do we not promote a binary world of masters and troglodytes? Personally, I think we need new stories, including one that is antidote to the Cain and Abel story. That is not to say there won't be hierarchy. For example, when we have stories that promote community and "and/both" thinking instead of "either or," we will value and pay our essential workers more.
I think you are closing in on an answer to the vast political divide we are having. The bottom line is we really are ALL in this together, facing the same problems. But people take away different conclusions as to why. Stories that illuminate the diversity of lives lived and formative experiences in this country are probably the best way to open people's minds. That said, they need to be good stories!
While I had read about the anger and rage of victims of malignant narcissism when they "wake up" from the gaslighting and abuse, I hadn't thought about the grieving for their loss of status. But it makes sense. The Trump supporters I've talked to say they feel they were being ignored until Trump came along. Hope it doesn't turn violent and involve the use of guns. What bothers me is Trump supporters already have the answer about why you are wrong when you try to state a reputable fact. Not sure if I have a question here. Just want to be prepared for the post-Trump world. I'm a Synergist and do feel and/both thinking is the way to go; but are Trump supporters stuck in the bifurcation of the universe.
In Jungian terms either 'thinking' or "feeling" will dominate. The 2 cannot be used with equal ease and dexterity; one would be used synergistically as a support for the other in a normally developed adult personality that has attained "middle age". I'm not sure that Trumpian orcs have made significant inroads into the development of even their dominant functions let alone integrating any of those other functions which can be largely unconscious.
As an INTP I "think" you are making an excellent point. We certainly see arrested development in DT. What is disturbing to me is the lack of empathy in DT and his supporters. I do sense a lack of awareness of self in Trump supporters nor any effort in seeking to become aware. Once they have an answer that fits their reality they don't go any further. DT is certainly supplying those answers in exchange for them feeding his narcissistic supply.
Yes, even the FBI is stating its concern over the potential "lethality" of the White Supremacists and other extremist groups. And a Trump supporter tells me the FBI is part of the deep state. Always an answer that explains why reality isn't reality. Yes, gun manufacturers have done well the last four years.
I read a NYT piece last night that I wish I had saved because I can't find it now. The headline was something like What's left of the Republican Party. And it's a long piece.
What unsettles me is the attitude the journalist found that they aren't interested in policy, they just want to vote for people that will fight. In other words, the uglier the campaign, the more they like that candidate. And it goes down to the local level. The comment that it used to be Jim Doe vs John Doe & about the people. This group wants to make it about being Republican against those evil Democrats.
If that is what we have to look forward to, I don't know what to say.
Thanks for looking, Lynell. That is not the one. I went searching & found it! Win or Lose, It’s Donald Trump’s Republican Party https://nyti.ms/34wC4wN
I think you hit it on the head. The supporters are past the point where they can admit, even to themselves, that they picked the wrong person. There is a term for it - the sunk cost fallacy - which usually applies to financial decisions, but can be applied to relationships. It is hard for people to admit mistakes of this magnitude,
especially when they have invested so much of their public and private time and energy into it.
As I'm reading through these comments, I keep thinking these supporters of 45 think they are the saviors of democracy, and we "liberals" are trying to destroy it. They think they are the patriots, and we "liberals" are not. No amount of defining what socialism really means, etc., will inform these folks to the other side.
Marcy I do sincerely wish this, but racism and sexism always win out with people who refuse to look at their own actions and attitudes and wonder why things happen. They went (somewhat) underground in the Obama era but reveled in the "freedom" they've experienced in the last 4 years being able to express their hatred and desire for dominance. And if we don't flip the Senate we are going to be informed it.
I'm afraid tRump supporters will always be just that. The nation is divided, and that will not change after the election. Joe Biden has his work cut out for him to begin the healing process. Those tRumpsters will not give in so easily. At the same time, I recognize that those of us on this side of the ledger are just as rabid, so tRump winning this election (God help us) will only solidify our side.
There is a wonderful metaphore in Trump's supporters being left shivering in the dark. I wonder if any of them had an epiphany illuminating what Trump has been doing to them from the start.
Sadly, I doubt it. One would like to ask some of them if they still believe the Trump campaign/administration can organize a government after failing to organize the transportation of a few hundred people.
Does herd stupidity work the same as herd immunity?
When this nightmare is over, academics will sift through the evidence left and many learned articles, essays, books, and advanced degree theses, (rhymes with...) will be produced. As many of them will be authored by students of abnormal psychology as by students of history and political science. Some will focus on Trump, others will focus on his mob.
The Trumpscum are proof that Mencken was right back in 1924, when he observed that "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."
While H.L Mencken, during his lifetime, said and wrote many things which were reprehensible, he also possessed the wisdom to have written that "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”
This was true four years ago and the ignorati, the gullible and the bigoted are still around, presenting a greater threat to the nation than Al Qaida, ISIS, the Communist Party ... and even the Covid19 pandemic. The two weeks following Election Day may be among the most important days in American history. Defeated Trump supporters and the politicized Supreme Court may make it so.
The discouraging frankness of Menken's conclusions can NOT be strictly limited to the American people and much of Europe suffers a similar absence of successful civic, political and economic educational systems and public comprehension of "how the world really works" .
I did read somewhere that the Trump campaign was not good at paying its bills. With their cash supply dwindling, that behavior is not likely to improve.
Lesson to venders; get the money up front or no deal.
Sadly most of them will use the transportation debacle as evidence of his awesome popularity. "There were so many there to support his greatness that they couldn't accommodate us all. And that despite the fact that we were risking our lives to be there!"
On Oct 22, 1844, the Millerites -- followers of William Miller -- waited for Jesus to return, on the date that Miller had calculated from his study of scripture. When Jesus did not appear, most of Miller's followers decided that the prophecy was wrong and abandoned his church (and many, Christianity). Some decided that the prophecy was right, but the date was wrong, and formed the Advent Christian Church, and the Jehovah's Witness Church, which continues to recalculate the date on a regular basis. A few decided that the date and the prophecy were right, but the prophecy was misinterpreted by Miller, and they became the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. The Seventh-Day Adventists boast 19 million members, and own pretty much all the hospital services in our extended area.
As a Vermonter, or more correctly, a VT resident -- as I wasn't born here, nor do I have several famlial generations of Vermonters to back my claim -- it gives me great pleasure, in the wee hours of this morning, to say: So there, Justice Kavanaugh! Let's see how many more faux pas you'll be making in a position which should never have been conferred upon you.
"'Justice Kavanaugh is incorrect about Vermont here while upending Wisconsin voting one week from the election. We held to an Election Day ballot receipt deadline because of the other changes we made — all voters had a ballot and prepaid return envelope in hand 30 DAYS before the election,' the Vermont Secretary of State’s office said on Twitter.
Speaking to reporters Tuesday on Zoom, Condos said he intends to ask the U.S. Supreme Court to correct the information in Kavanaugh’s opinion.
'Justice Kavanaugh got that information wrong in his decision and we plan on submitting a request to correct that, on the record, in his decision,' [VT Sec. of State] Condos said."
From *The Vermont Digger*
If the VT information was given to Justice K by one of his interns or staff that poor individual must be looking for another position!
I remember reading somewhere, while a student at UVM, that neither being born in, nor living in VT qualifies one as a Vermonter — you have to be *buried* there!
There’s an “old New England” story about the fellow from away who’s talking to the locals in the general store and says “You can give me all the grief you want about not being a real Vermonter/ Mainer/New Hampshirite, bit my kids were born here so they’re natives.” One of the old codgers looks up from hos seat by the wood stove and replies “Just ‘cause the cat had her kittens in the oven doesn’t mean they’re biscuits.”
That's great. Here on the Eastern Shore of Maryland, we distinguish between from-heres and come-heres, pronounced frommers and commers. There's a story, no doubt apocryphal, about an Oxford --that's one of our towns-- man whose mother had a complicated pregnancy and gave birth to him at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore. He lived all his life in Oxford, was a beloved town leader and philanthropist, and when he died and was being memorialized, his eulogist said, Though he wasn't really from here, we loved him as one of our own...
Morning, all! Tonight's letter is so uplifting. I have been heartened by the long lines of voters we are seeing throughout the country. I pray that it continues. I wish the media would remind the public that the delay before we know the official results is nothing to be concerned about. Let every vote be counted!
It's interesting to watch the Trump and his Orcs as halloween approaches. The highly destructive impact of massive stress, headless floundering and fear of losing it all as Nov 3 nears is wearing away their various verbal disguises, "principled stances" and flimsy "human" masks. Instead of getting dressed up to strike fear in exchange for candies, they are being revealed for the ghoulish fiends they really are underneath in the full glare of media's election coverage spotlights.; their evident mistreatment and lack of care for anybody....and in particular their own their own trogloditic, misguided supporting hoard...is clearly shown by the imitation Sauron's frozen Eppley aerodrome crowd and their kind concern for the safety of Trump's jellybean Balrog....Pence.
both in reality as the image of the death dance of a "headless" chicken was in my mind and that poor bird is also at that point "heedless" of its surroundings and its inevitable fate.
45 is a Mass murderer. Traitor. Fascist. Compulsive liar. Sociopath. Nasty bully. Selfish prick. Greedy bastard. Halloween monster. Unprotected by COVID antibodies now I hope.
Today on Nicole Wallace's show, she did a whole segment on a serious discussion of the question, "Is Trump a traitor?" I never ever thought I would live to see the day such a thing would happen (I've thought he was a traitor since the summer of 2016, myself. That "golden shower" really did happen at that Moscow hotel).
On that show, Nicole interviewed David Rothkopf. Rothkopf has a book titled, "Traitor" where he looks at American betrayal. He see Trump as maybe the greatest betrayer of them all. I'm hoping to read it.
Your smart words from yesterday’s comments regarding the remarkable similarity of Trumpism to Fascism are still ringing in my ears. Former Secretary of State, Madeline Albright has certainly pointed out the “elephant in the room”. It is surprising that Vice President Biden hasn’t done likewise when accused of being a Socialist. Or would that be politically unsavvy? I’d love it if he did. Just saying.
That’s true bit I’d still like to see the Lincoln Project doing a big national ad buy with a piece attacking the sleazy profiteering of Trump’s adult spawn and their significant others.
Send your suggestion to the Lincoln Project and MeidasTouch. Phone The Lincoln Project at 202-417-6834. Email for MeidasTouch is info@meidastouch.com. Put "idea for ad re..." in your subject line. BTW, have you seen the anti-Ivanka and Jared ad by The Lincoln Project in Times Square? It's so powerful that I & J sued The Lincoln Project and lost!
At this point, politically unsavvy. I think probably ditto for the ad someone mentioned below. People know about the Trump spawn. Less than one week to go, and things look good. No sense throwing negative stuff out. It tends to just rile things up. We've had four plus years of acute negativity. We are all tired of it. The more positive Biden looks, the better.
Pence is a Ken doll with no balls. He has been around those 5 aides who tested positive. He will get the virus at some point but we will never know about it. In the meantime, both Fake 45 and “Ken” are infecting those around them...spreading their “wealth”. The people who came out to see their leader in Nebraska, got a rude awakening when they had to walk about 3 miles in sub-freezing weather to catch their bus. That is the epitome of a true Trump rally... leave ‘em hanging.
Biden and Harris are going in on the kill, and I pray it is all worth every effort they and we have put in.
So, Taylor was CoS from 2017-2018; that's a bit different than what dumb bimbo McEnemy was saying, that "he only lasted as Chief of Staff for a few weeks before being fired as a failure." Hell, if he was a failure, he'd still be there, like she is.
Don't know if anyone else has ever met a golf champion, I've met a few. All dumber than rocks (about as stupid as you have to be, to take that worthless game seriously). Nicklaus has never been anything else, surprise surprise.
As far as Kavanaugh is concerned, if the D's ever get the sufficient majority, the Three Trump Supremes all need to be impeached and removed. (if things continue to look as bad in the Senate as they could be, and there's the blowout some Republicans are fearing, the Ds could actually get close)
Biden went from down 2 in Wisconsin to up 17 in a poll released today. I guess even the morons in Baraboo have figured out that having to set up a field hospital isn't a sign that we're "rounding the corner."
My only regret about the virus is it isn't more fatal. If we could get rid of all the maskless morons, we could really Make America Great Again.
TCinLA, I was just thinking that some of the American people continue to confound me. Why should I follow the advice of Jack Nicklaus when he tells me for whom I should vote? In what way is he qualified to influence my actions? Why do we follow the “guidance” of sports figures and entertainers and ignore that of diplomats, statesmen, and scientists? It’s beyond me.
TC, you were mostly ok until the last paragraph. Then you lump a lot of people into one big group and wish them dead. Isn't that what bigots do? What kind of person wishes death on people because they don't see everything the way you think they should. You've heard the word "eugenics"? That's what you're talking about. You can call it a figure of speech and say it shouldn't be taken seriously, but it's just plain ugly. I'm sure that with a little effort and thought you could express your thoughts without unnecessarily demeaning language. That's not making America great. It's becoming like those few who think they are superior to everyone not white and male.
I have to take issue! Nicklaus may well be as dumb as a rock. His endorsement is laughable. But my grandfather was a golf pro, played on the tour, and was highly successful from the 1930s through the 1970s, a long and illustrious career. He was far from stupid. It was, and is, a demanding job. Not all athletes are idiots. I too am from Ohio, from Nicklaus’ home town in fact, and couldn’t care less what he says. This is not a solid middle class town, it’s a pretty affluent suburb of Columbus and was back then, too.
Heather, thanks for the recap. Spot on as always. Thanks for the pep talk during Tuesdays History chat. I think I am just so tired of Trumps all hat, no cattle mentality and the looming uncertainty of the outcome of so many issues makes every minute of everyday a little much these days. Stay safe, stay well.
“ Tucker Carlson tonight claimed that he had “real, authentic and damning” new Hunter Biden documents, but a producer shipped them to Carlson’s home—apparently without making copies of them-- and they mysteriously disappeared.” In other words, his dog ate his homework?
Well, I see J. Biden ahead in the popularity polls...but the electoral is less certain..I hope this turns out well.....Of course the influences of voter suppression and foreign, and trump's willingness to do whatever it takes to win remains.....All I can say is time will tell..as for now, it remains nerve wracking..Democracy..is on the line..as well as the quality of so many lives...mine included............
A friend pointed out that these were your inspirational closing thoughts for your history and politics conversation yesterday, HCR. I thought that I would post them here, in case any of this wonderful community missed them -- as I had.
"Somebody asked me to tell you it's going to be ok. I can't tell you it's going to be ok, because I'm a prophet of the past - not of the future. But I can tell you this. What Donald Trump and the Republicans want is for you to think you are not powerful. They want to think it's a done deal. They want you to think you have to do whatever they say. And the truth is they know that they are hideously outnumbered. They would not have to gerrymander the states. They would not have to steal elections. They would not have to suppress the vote. They would not have to pack the Supreme Court if they didn't know that there are far more of us than there are of them.
"I would urge you not to despair at all, but rather to recognize that the future really does belong to us. And when you think about that, and I know everyone is scared, especially since we are all stuck at home, and we can't spend time with people that think like us and all that, but we are really powerful. Just the number of people who follow me on FaceBook alone - we are almost up to a million people, and you all have family members and friends. That right there is a lot of people, and you know we are a good community. And here's the news flash. The people who are trying to take America into an oligarchy, which is what I believe they are doing, are powerful people, and they are gaming the system in a lot of ways, it's true.
"But I promise you, there are not the kind of numbers on their team that there are on those of us who want to see a democracy in which every person is equal before the law, and every person has equality of access to resources and equality of opportunity. THAT is the American dream. And the guy I learned that from was Abraham Lincoln. And I've still got to believe that that is still the vision of America that is going to take us into the future."
~Heather Cox Richardson, History & Politics Chat, 10/27/20
Thank you, Heather, for your deeply grounding perspective, and thank you, Rowshan, for sharing Heather's wise words. I had heard her say them at her chat, but to read them is balm for the soul. Also I can reread them now many times! Most thoughtful of you!!
Yes. Balm for the soul. I also posted on facebook.
Thank You for sharing this Rowshan!!
And THANK YOU Heather💕💕💕💕💞💞💞💞💕💕💕💕
Hear! Hear!
I missed this. Thank you!
Imogene Drummond, Mary Pat Sercu Randall, Joseph Nemeth, LouAnn, and Ellen Massey, I'm so glad that HCR's words touched you, too!
Thank you! I enjoyed being able to read these words in addition to listening to the chat. Not sure how I would be coping without Heather and this community.
I laughed out loud at the papers disappearing! What school teacher wouldn’t?! Maybe the dog ate his homework.
Hey Nicklaus! Colonial wants their plaid jacket back! Jerk!
I see more stirrings of Biden/Harris around Ft Worth, TX, as time marches to Decision 2020. Bumper stickers, yard signs, people talking. Still long lines at the early voting polls! Can I dare to hope?!
Thank you! These letters help so much!
Thanks for highlighting the coldness of the Pence campaign's response to the Covid surges...tone-deaf doesn't touch it. To focus on Pence's well-being when so many are suffering that the system can't handle any more...clear as a bell, these guys do not care how you're doing. I so hope that message sinks in. Farther.
I really don't think that Katie Miller understands that she messed up the answer even now! It is really sad.
“ Meanwhile, with no verification and dubious origins, the story of Hunter Biden’s laptop is dying, and likely will have little of the impact for which Trump was clearly hoping. ”
Not true, unfortunately. I am surrounded by Trump supporters. They all believe this and still believe the Hillary email garbage. They also believe Biden is a rapist and Trump isn’t. They also want States responsible for everything and Federal for very little. They want each State to be little countries.
I wish America could have an Ebenezer Scrooge or It’s a Wonderful Life moment and live the life they generate through Trump’s win but through Trump’s victims perspectives.
Lisa, I have seen the same in Trump supporters. Anything negative about Trump is treated as though it were just so much wind. It can't be true because Trump is perfect. I don't get it, but then, I read everything I can get my hands on, and don't "settle" for what Fox News (tongue in cheek) and Rush Limbaugh try to shove down my throat. Additionally, I am quickly approaching retirement (I can only hope) and I see what they are trying to do to Social Security and Medicare, but apparently their supporters don't...what happens when the ACA is abolished and these people are out of health insurance? Not all 20+ million can be Democrats...at least some of them have to be Trump supporters. What happens when those of us on Social Security no longer get a check (2023 will be the end of it if they get rid of it)? Loads of these folks are Trump supporters. And let's not even get into our standing in the world. I could go on. Let's just say those with blinders on had better get some glasses, because what they are looking through right now are not rose-colored.
I have a somewhat funny story: About 4-5 years ago, my in-laws asked if I would come to their home in Kauai and babysit their dog while they took a vacation to Japan. I jumped at the chance to go. I took a friend and after we arrived, my in-laws took us to their home. They had a spectacular view of the ocean. The following day, took them back to the airport to catch their flight. Returned home and went into their bedroom where I was going to sleep. On the shelves, sat 5 Bill O’Reilly books. I almost threw up! Later on, my sister-in-law sent me text asking, for my bro-in-law, if his books were still intact. I told her “Yes and they are in a bonfire as we speak.”.
👏🏼👏🏿👏
I will never be able to retire. I hoped to collect Social Security and work part time until I couldn’t continue anymore. Then I would choose a fast end rather than slow one being hungry and living on the streets.
Now I am going to have to pray I don’t get fired once I’m past my prime because I’ll never get another job with a living wage and healthcare benefits. So my end plan will likely come sooner rather than later.
Lisa, while I understand your fears and predictions, I am not ready to throw in the towel on our country, our democracy, or my life. It looks rough, but as Heather and others are saying, WE outnumber THEM. I have more faith in the Good than that. This fight won’t be over with this election, but it will be over if everyone GIVES UP. Peace be with all of us.
I hope you’re right, but this feels exactly like the last election. The only difference is more people are voting and more cheating is going on.
I understand your feelings! That being said, it's never the same thing twice, even with similar outcomes. New lessons, new challenges, new support structures. Lifetime work, lifetime lessons, and I'm so glad to have this forum to share feelings and ideas.
I wonder something: when trump and his public sycophants cease bellowing (eventually) and some form of calm returns, will these devoted supporters gradually realize life under trump was actually hell ...
Probably not.
I saw this posted on Twitter by Dr Bandy X Lee, a Forensic Psychiatrist:
“”A reporter whose grandparents were refugees from Nazi Germany related to me: “I cannot help but remember a conversation I had with my grandfather ... about the firebombing of Dresden, whether he thought the Allies should be reproached for targeting civilians....
... He said—I remember this well—that it was a necessity, because nothing short of the sight of SEEING THEIR CITIES LEVELED would have broken the spell. The German public, he said, was not open to reason. They could not be persuaded to abandon Hitler....”
That comment haunted her, she said.
Needless to say, we are seeing the same phenomenon here, and every day that Donald Trump has exposure to the public, he spellbinds his followers ever more deeply, as mental health experts are precisely the ones banned from comment.””
He has given them a rare moment when they might somehow, and against all reason, feel that they are the masters of the universe. After Trump there will be much anger.. but also grief at their "loss" of such a high flying status. The grief will follow the normal Kubler Ross cycle and settle into nostalgia for past glories...untill the next time!
Well said. I think you have unveiled the problem, Stuart. For once, the troglodytes feel empowered like Masters of the Universe. They do not want to lose that worldview, and will be angry when they do... I think an underlying issue going forward is how do we not promote a binary world of masters and troglodytes? Personally, I think we need new stories, including one that is antidote to the Cain and Abel story. That is not to say there won't be hierarchy. For example, when we have stories that promote community and "and/both" thinking instead of "either or," we will value and pay our essential workers more.
I think you are closing in on an answer to the vast political divide we are having. The bottom line is we really are ALL in this together, facing the same problems. But people take away different conclusions as to why. Stories that illuminate the diversity of lives lived and formative experiences in this country are probably the best way to open people's minds. That said, they need to be good stories!
settling "into nostalgia for past glories" sounds exactly like what happened in the post-Civil War era, up and to today.
While I had read about the anger and rage of victims of malignant narcissism when they "wake up" from the gaslighting and abuse, I hadn't thought about the grieving for their loss of status. But it makes sense. The Trump supporters I've talked to say they feel they were being ignored until Trump came along. Hope it doesn't turn violent and involve the use of guns. What bothers me is Trump supporters already have the answer about why you are wrong when you try to state a reputable fact. Not sure if I have a question here. Just want to be prepared for the post-Trump world. I'm a Synergist and do feel and/both thinking is the way to go; but are Trump supporters stuck in the bifurcation of the universe.
In Jungian terms either 'thinking' or "feeling" will dominate. The 2 cannot be used with equal ease and dexterity; one would be used synergistically as a support for the other in a normally developed adult personality that has attained "middle age". I'm not sure that Trumpian orcs have made significant inroads into the development of even their dominant functions let alone integrating any of those other functions which can be largely unconscious.
As an INTP I "think" you are making an excellent point. We certainly see arrested development in DT. What is disturbing to me is the lack of empathy in DT and his supporters. I do sense a lack of awareness of self in Trump supporters nor any effort in seeking to become aware. Once they have an answer that fits their reality they don't go any further. DT is certainly supplying those answers in exchange for them feeding his narcissistic supply.
This INTJ salutes your logic and conclusions.
I, too, worry what might happen in the streets re: gun violence because many guns and ammunition have been acquired these past 4 years.
Yes, even the FBI is stating its concern over the potential "lethality" of the White Supremacists and other extremist groups. And a Trump supporter tells me the FBI is part of the deep state. Always an answer that explains why reality isn't reality. Yes, gun manufacturers have done well the last four years.
Just like Germany after WWI
Oh yes!
I read a NYT piece last night that I wish I had saved because I can't find it now. The headline was something like What's left of the Republican Party. And it's a long piece.
What unsettles me is the attitude the journalist found that they aren't interested in policy, they just want to vote for people that will fight. In other words, the uglier the campaign, the more they like that candidate. And it goes down to the local level. The comment that it used to be Jim Doe vs John Doe & about the people. This group wants to make it about being Republican against those evil Democrats.
If that is what we have to look forward to, I don't know what to say.
Is this it, BetsyC? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/opinion/sunday/trump-republican-party.html
Thanks for looking, Lynell. That is not the one. I went searching & found it! Win or Lose, It’s Donald Trump’s Republican Party https://nyti.ms/34wC4wN
I just read it...chilling.
No, Marcy, many, if not most, won't. And even if they secretly realize it, they will never admit it out loud.
I think you hit it on the head. The supporters are past the point where they can admit, even to themselves, that they picked the wrong person. There is a term for it - the sunk cost fallacy - which usually applies to financial decisions, but can be applied to relationships. It is hard for people to admit mistakes of this magnitude,
especially when they have invested so much of their public and private time and energy into it.
As I'm reading through these comments, I keep thinking these supporters of 45 think they are the saviors of democracy, and we "liberals" are trying to destroy it. They think they are the patriots, and we "liberals" are not. No amount of defining what socialism really means, etc., will inform these folks to the other side.
Marcy I do sincerely wish this, but racism and sexism always win out with people who refuse to look at their own actions and attitudes and wonder why things happen. They went (somewhat) underground in the Obama era but reveled in the "freedom" they've experienced in the last 4 years being able to express their hatred and desire for dominance. And if we don't flip the Senate we are going to be informed it.
In for it. I hate autocorrect . . .
I'm afraid tRump supporters will always be just that. The nation is divided, and that will not change after the election. Joe Biden has his work cut out for him to begin the healing process. Those tRumpsters will not give in so easily. At the same time, I recognize that those of us on this side of the ledger are just as rabid, so tRump winning this election (God help us) will only solidify our side.
Considering that there are still people who want segregated schools, I'm going to say 'no'.
Sad.
There is a wonderful metaphore in Trump's supporters being left shivering in the dark. I wonder if any of them had an epiphany illuminating what Trump has been doing to them from the start.
Sadly, I doubt it. One would like to ask some of them if they still believe the Trump campaign/administration can organize a government after failing to organize the transportation of a few hundred people.
Does herd stupidity work the same as herd immunity?
When this nightmare is over, academics will sift through the evidence left and many learned articles, essays, books, and advanced degree theses, (rhymes with...) will be produced. As many of them will be authored by students of abnormal psychology as by students of history and political science. Some will focus on Trump, others will focus on his mob.
The Trumpscum are proof that Mencken was right back in 1924, when he observed that "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."
While H.L Mencken, during his lifetime, said and wrote many things which were reprehensible, he also possessed the wisdom to have written that "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”
This was true four years ago and the ignorati, the gullible and the bigoted are still around, presenting a greater threat to the nation than Al Qaida, ISIS, the Communist Party ... and even the Covid19 pandemic. The two weeks following Election Day may be among the most important days in American history. Defeated Trump supporters and the politicized Supreme Court may make it so.
The discouraging frankness of Menken's conclusions can NOT be strictly limited to the American people and much of Europe suffers a similar absence of successful civic, political and economic educational systems and public comprehension of "how the world really works" .
I do wonder if there were enough traffic control people at the airport event. after all, they did know they were not going to get paid.
I did read somewhere that the Trump campaign was not good at paying its bills. With their cash supply dwindling, that behavior is not likely to improve.
Lesson to venders; get the money up front or no deal.
Didn't Reagan fire them all? Perhaps he named his trolls to replace them.
Sadly most of them will use the transportation debacle as evidence of his awesome popularity. "There were so many there to support his greatness that they couldn't accommodate us all. And that despite the fact that we were risking our lives to be there!"
Read "Let Them Eat Tweets " by Hacker & Pierson. This was an incredibly sophisticated and evil super con.
On Oct 22, 1844, the Millerites -- followers of William Miller -- waited for Jesus to return, on the date that Miller had calculated from his study of scripture. When Jesus did not appear, most of Miller's followers decided that the prophecy was wrong and abandoned his church (and many, Christianity). Some decided that the prophecy was right, but the date was wrong, and formed the Advent Christian Church, and the Jehovah's Witness Church, which continues to recalculate the date on a regular basis. A few decided that the date and the prophecy were right, but the prophecy was misinterpreted by Miller, and they became the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. The Seventh-Day Adventists boast 19 million members, and own pretty much all the hospital services in our extended area.
I don't think people get over mule-headedness.
I agree. It's remarkable that people will twist themselves into intellectual pretzels to avoid admitting they simply made a mistake.
Thank you for your comment and the history lesson.
As a Vermonter, or more correctly, a VT resident -- as I wasn't born here, nor do I have several famlial generations of Vermonters to back my claim -- it gives me great pleasure, in the wee hours of this morning, to say: So there, Justice Kavanaugh! Let's see how many more faux pas you'll be making in a position which should never have been conferred upon you.
"'Justice Kavanaugh is incorrect about Vermont here while upending Wisconsin voting one week from the election. We held to an Election Day ballot receipt deadline because of the other changes we made — all voters had a ballot and prepaid return envelope in hand 30 DAYS before the election,' the Vermont Secretary of State’s office said on Twitter.
Speaking to reporters Tuesday on Zoom, Condos said he intends to ask the U.S. Supreme Court to correct the information in Kavanaugh’s opinion.
'Justice Kavanaugh got that information wrong in his decision and we plan on submitting a request to correct that, on the record, in his decision,' [VT Sec. of State] Condos said."
From *The Vermont Digger*
If the VT information was given to Justice K by one of his interns or staff that poor individual must be looking for another position!
https://vtdigger.org/2020/10/28/condos-seeks-correction-of-justice-kavanaughs-claims-about-vermont-elections/amp/
I remember reading somewhere, while a student at UVM, that neither being born in, nor living in VT qualifies one as a Vermonter — you have to be *buried* there!
There’s an “old New England” story about the fellow from away who’s talking to the locals in the general store and says “You can give me all the grief you want about not being a real Vermonter/ Mainer/New Hampshirite, bit my kids were born here so they’re natives.” One of the old codgers looks up from hos seat by the wood stove and replies “Just ‘cause the cat had her kittens in the oven doesn’t mean they’re biscuits.”
GOL*
*Guffawed Out Loud
What a gem!! Thank you, Carol and Jim!
That's great. Here on the Eastern Shore of Maryland, we distinguish between from-heres and come-heres, pronounced frommers and commers. There's a story, no doubt apocryphal, about an Oxford --that's one of our towns-- man whose mother had a complicated pregnancy and gave birth to him at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore. He lived all his life in Oxford, was a beloved town leader and philanthropist, and when he died and was being memorialized, his eulogist said, Though he wasn't really from here, we loved him as one of our own...
Morning, all! Tonight's letter is so uplifting. I have been heartened by the long lines of voters we are seeing throughout the country. I pray that it continues. I wish the media would remind the public that the delay before we know the official results is nothing to be concerned about. Let every vote be counted!
https://nyti.ms/34C7wcY Supreme Court decisions re Pennsylvania and North Carolina.
It's interesting to watch the Trump and his Orcs as halloween approaches. The highly destructive impact of massive stress, headless floundering and fear of losing it all as Nov 3 nears is wearing away their various verbal disguises, "principled stances" and flimsy "human" masks. Instead of getting dressed up to strike fear in exchange for candies, they are being revealed for the ghoulish fiends they really are underneath in the full glare of media's election coverage spotlights.; their evident mistreatment and lack of care for anybody....and in particular their own their own trogloditic, misguided supporting hoard...is clearly shown by the imitation Sauron's frozen Eppley aerodrome crowd and their kind concern for the safety of Trump's jellybean Balrog....Pence.
“Headless” floundering conjures Halloween indeed. But i wonder if you meant “heedless” floundering. Doesn’t really matter, either works. 🎃💀👺
both in reality as the image of the death dance of a "headless" chicken was in my mind and that poor bird is also at that point "heedless" of its surroundings and its inevitable fate.
Love this imagery!
45 is a Mass murderer. Traitor. Fascist. Compulsive liar. Sociopath. Nasty bully. Selfish prick. Greedy bastard. Halloween monster. Unprotected by COVID antibodies now I hope.
Today on Nicole Wallace's show, she did a whole segment on a serious discussion of the question, "Is Trump a traitor?" I never ever thought I would live to see the day such a thing would happen (I've thought he was a traitor since the summer of 2016, myself. That "golden shower" really did happen at that Moscow hotel).
On that show, Nicole interviewed David Rothkopf. Rothkopf has a book titled, "Traitor" where he looks at American betrayal. He see Trump as maybe the greatest betrayer of them all. I'm hoping to read it.
Your smart words from yesterday’s comments regarding the remarkable similarity of Trumpism to Fascism are still ringing in my ears. Former Secretary of State, Madeline Albright has certainly pointed out the “elephant in the room”. It is surprising that Vice President Biden hasn’t done likewise when accused of being a Socialist. Or would that be politically unsavvy? I’d love it if he did. Just saying.
Playing tit for tat with the world’s most notorious Troll would probably not be very productive.
IMO, Biden has done well thus far - he just needs to keep doing what he’s been doing – sticking to the high ground and the issues.
That’s true bit I’d still like to see the Lincoln Project doing a big national ad buy with a piece attacking the sleazy profiteering of Trump’s adult spawn and their significant others.
Send your suggestion to the Lincoln Project and MeidasTouch. Phone The Lincoln Project at 202-417-6834. Email for MeidasTouch is info@meidastouch.com. Put "idea for ad re..." in your subject line. BTW, have you seen the anti-Ivanka and Jared ad by The Lincoln Project in Times Square? It's so powerful that I & J sued The Lincoln Project and lost!
At this point, politically unsavvy. I think probably ditto for the ad someone mentioned below. People know about the Trump spawn. Less than one week to go, and things look good. No sense throwing negative stuff out. It tends to just rile things up. We've had four plus years of acute negativity. We are all tired of it. The more positive Biden looks, the better.
Pence is a Ken doll with no balls. He has been around those 5 aides who tested positive. He will get the virus at some point but we will never know about it. In the meantime, both Fake 45 and “Ken” are infecting those around them...spreading their “wealth”. The people who came out to see their leader in Nebraska, got a rude awakening when they had to walk about 3 miles in sub-freezing weather to catch their bus. That is the epitome of a true Trump rally... leave ‘em hanging.
Biden and Harris are going in on the kill, and I pray it is all worth every effort they and we have put in.
Marlene, that requires a “laugh” button.
So, Taylor was CoS from 2017-2018; that's a bit different than what dumb bimbo McEnemy was saying, that "he only lasted as Chief of Staff for a few weeks before being fired as a failure." Hell, if he was a failure, he'd still be there, like she is.
Don't know if anyone else has ever met a golf champion, I've met a few. All dumber than rocks (about as stupid as you have to be, to take that worthless game seriously). Nicklaus has never been anything else, surprise surprise.
As far as Kavanaugh is concerned, if the D's ever get the sufficient majority, the Three Trump Supremes all need to be impeached and removed. (if things continue to look as bad in the Senate as they could be, and there's the blowout some Republicans are fearing, the Ds could actually get close)
Biden went from down 2 in Wisconsin to up 17 in a poll released today. I guess even the morons in Baraboo have figured out that having to set up a field hospital isn't a sign that we're "rounding the corner."
My only regret about the virus is it isn't more fatal. If we could get rid of all the maskless morons, we could really Make America Great Again.
Some dark comments—but I enjoyed them.
TCinLA, I was just thinking that some of the American people continue to confound me. Why should I follow the advice of Jack Nicklaus when he tells me for whom I should vote? In what way is he qualified to influence my actions? Why do we follow the “guidance” of sports figures and entertainers and ignore that of diplomats, statesmen, and scientists? It’s beyond me.
I am from Ohio, and whatever Jack Nicklaus says certainly doesn't sway me, or my vote.
TC, you were mostly ok until the last paragraph. Then you lump a lot of people into one big group and wish them dead. Isn't that what bigots do? What kind of person wishes death on people because they don't see everything the way you think they should. You've heard the word "eugenics"? That's what you're talking about. You can call it a figure of speech and say it shouldn't be taken seriously, but it's just plain ugly. I'm sure that with a little effort and thought you could express your thoughts without unnecessarily demeaning language. That's not making America great. It's becoming like those few who think they are superior to everyone not white and male.
I have to take issue! Nicklaus may well be as dumb as a rock. His endorsement is laughable. But my grandfather was a golf pro, played on the tour, and was highly successful from the 1930s through the 1970s, a long and illustrious career. He was far from stupid. It was, and is, a demanding job. Not all athletes are idiots. I too am from Ohio, from Nicklaus’ home town in fact, and couldn’t care less what he says. This is not a solid middle class town, it’s a pretty affluent suburb of Columbus and was back then, too.
Heather, thanks for the recap. Spot on as always. Thanks for the pep talk during Tuesdays History chat. I think I am just so tired of Trumps all hat, no cattle mentality and the looming uncertainty of the outcome of so many issues makes every minute of everyday a little much these days. Stay safe, stay well.
“ Tucker Carlson tonight claimed that he had “real, authentic and damning” new Hunter Biden documents, but a producer shipped them to Carlson’s home—apparently without making copies of them-- and they mysteriously disappeared.” In other words, his dog ate his homework?
I was setting up my new cellphone when Carson's tale of woe popped up on the screen. I almost lost my breath I was laughing so hard.
Well, I see J. Biden ahead in the popularity polls...but the electoral is less certain..I hope this turns out well.....Of course the influences of voter suppression and foreign, and trump's willingness to do whatever it takes to win remains.....All I can say is time will tell..as for now, it remains nerve wracking..Democracy..is on the line..as well as the quality of so many lives...mine included............
Take heart, when Georgia and Texas are in play for the good guys, then the rest of the electoral map is pretty encouraging.
I was eager to read a description of Trump's good deeds which Nicklaus refers to. But he cites only
POTUS's role as a golfing buddy, hardly a reason to support him. Different strokes for different folks indeed! --Jackspatch
Jack’s vision must be going bad. It’s hard to think of one of my boyhood idols advocating for such an obvious cheat and bully.