Reading or listening to a podcast series on Lewis & Clark is instructive too. It wasn't always unfriendly and lack of respect. We and they are not all good and all bad. Encounters that spread disease were inevitable. Native Americans were custodians of the land- they had a different "world view" entirely than Europeans. Maybe they though…
Reading or listening to a podcast series on Lewis & Clark is instructive too. It wasn't always unfriendly and lack of respect. We and they are not all good and all bad. Encounters that spread disease were inevitable. Native Americans were custodians of the land- they had a different "world view" entirely than Europeans. Maybe they thought it was theirs. It's not reasonable to think that they could've continued to control the land. But we did fight and conquer, made treaties too. Might made right back then. We are still working on that one. The good of us try to make it up to them now, and to the descendants of slaves. We try. But again people are not all bad nor all good. I still reject the broad statement that you make about our (meaning this country in particular) history being responsible for a lot of the problems we see today. We have also been remedial and progressive.
The British brought much good along with bad aspect of colonialism: exploitation, the attitude of the "white man's burden" (white supremacy). Pretending this did not happen is not what I am talking about, guilt is.
We have arrived to today. How do we behave, what do we do today? Asking what we owe collectively is valid.
But neither you nor I nor anyone needs to own guilt especially from a selective reading of long years, centuries of collective history ... "500 years or so we have managed to destroy ...." We collectively have produced some pretty good and glorious things as well.
I have said clearly that I do not feel guilty or responsible for what happened in the past. I do feel responsible for doing my best to garden organically for example and buy from local farmers, preferably organic. However, I have Mr. Chemical living across the street who mows his lawn every other day with a big honking riding lawn mower for his postage stamp lawn. I find your explanation of our interaction with Native Americans disgusting. History does matter and people have long memories. My husband has Lakota ancestry and we are in touch with many of his relatives and believe me, they are still suffering and quite aware of our awful history with them. As for the British Empire, ask their former colonies and read Legacy of Violence which is about said empire and it is quite clear that many problems today, the Middle East for example, are a direct result. Yes, there are good people, but not so many among the most powerful who are usually opportunists and often criminals...think Bush and death star families. If we have an economic crisis over the debt and ordinary people suffer, the greeds will be read to swoop in to get whatever they can at a bargain price. As for the climate crisis, it is here. And we will have more floods, droughts, horrific storms, raising sea level, extinction, etc. I am 80 and have no children, so no direct family to face the future. I have ex-students who are not going to have children and some who have only one. The wealthy think their money will save them and some of the religious think there will be a second coming, so why worry....after all, they are among the saved. I do know many good individuals who are doing their best, so I do not view everyone as bad. As for progress, we have made some in social issues which the Rs are going their best to destroy. And yes, I do appreciate music and art, so I see some good there. Btw, there is a new book out about artists and writers who produced great work, but were terrible human beings....a conundrum perhaps for their admirers.
I find your take (crusade) on history, dragging the long history forward about damage done to the world and particularly your (or your husband's people) the anger and resentment, a real drag. You are focussing on the negative. My father ended his life sour about humanity, feeling he had have a gun at his door double locked for fear of his law breaking neighbors. I am Jewish and have a lot of history to focus on, to remember and hate if I choose - even in this country's history. But Jews as well as Blacks and Native Americans have added positively to this country and to the world. You might have come to some realization that much of humanity has gone forward from "the white man's burden". I think it was a religious belief. Superiority was ( and is) too. It's human and perseveres up to the white supremacy faction amongst us. It's by no means the majority of us. But it's loud, makes trouble and calls others like-minded and insecure perhaps out of the closet nevertheless. Part of enlightening others, including about organics ( I have been mostly organic for many many years and compost too, plant trees) is to bring everyone on board to save the planet. This is not an easy thing to do nor even agreed upon, unfortunately. You might understand or accept this a bit better, that we have good and bad in us and don't all agree. Both register in the world today. You could ask your neighbor to tone it down and invite him over to see your garden.
I get your own feeling of superiority and your anger... "disgusting". is a bit strong. Convince me why you use that word. Which is why I responded. I am a positive and hopeful person, or try to be.
I have a degree in art & am familiar with this not new question about artists. Can artists who we consider bad people make good art? I decided to accept Picasso as a phenomenally amazing artist regardless. There are many others in the arts. Some of my favorites, Dostoevsky was anti-semitic,... Degas virulently so. People thought/felt this way, were brought up this way. Some still do.
I do agree that there are good and bad people, but I stick with what I have said about people in power and our particular history when it comes to Native Americans and slavery. Where exactly did I say that any of the groups you have mentioned have not contributed good things to this world. I have had many personal encounters with people who show their racism when they think that they are with lily whites (doesn't exist btw), so it isn't dead at all. The history of how Native Americans and POC have been treated continues to this very day and I would love to see what his relatives would have to say to you. None of this nonsense has stopped and the discrimination continues. And the laugh of the day....the county has contacted our neighbor many times including the deputy sheriff about his noise, not the lawn mower noise. He also has a shop where for a long time he roared unmuffled engines full tilt until finally his wife put a stop to it. He also lied to our neighbors telling him that he had no idea he bothered us. We talked to him personally many times before we called the county. He is a jackass, period and of course, a conservative R. In our neighborhood on the block that runs behind us, people have engaged in two different law suits and talking didn't do any good. I don't know where you get the idea that I feel superior. I don't. But I am a history major, I taught it, I read voraciously. I have had to give up reading a couple books about cotton slavery and the removal of Native Americans because they were so awful and heart rending. Also I am a woman, so I do have an idea about being treated as a second class person, including tons of mansplaining and one of our neighbors does this every time I say something hopeful, so I am while I am not optimistic about the future of the planet, I cannot live in that negative space all the time. I don't go around angry all the time either, but I will not remain silent about the not so good aspects of our history. I haven't read the book Monsters, and I do like Picasso although when I was reading a bio of him, I couldn't stand him as person. It does present a conundrum to some people. I will be interested to hear what a couple of good friends (women) who are artists will have to say about this. And now, Potter, I am truly done conversing with you.
Oh good.. you have a lot of complaints... which is what got me. There is no conversation since you bring in everything but the kitchen sink and use excuses for your grievance, concentrating on the negative, and touting your entitlement to feel this way personally. At this point in your life you should possibly accept human nature and history.
I feel the way I do because I have read the history and encountered enough through my 80 years to stand by the idea that all of what we have done is not wonderful. These are not complaints, but adherence to the facts of history. You do remind me of a Lakota I encountered when I accidentally used the word Sioux and he told me it was Lakota and I said OK, I didn't realize that was some kind of slur. His hashtag is all land returned and he informed me that if I showed on the Pine Ridge I would be beaten and killed. Now that is anger. The relative whose thread it was told him off on my behalf and blocked him. And this last post of yours is about how superior your view is and my stand is that you have misread a lot of what I have said. I do understand human nature which is one of the reasons I cannot be optimistic about the future of the planet. And I am "entitled"....what a laugh. And the kitchen sink....you are truly full of yourself.
I am not optimistic either after such encounters. I never said all of what we do is wonderful. You misread me. I said you emphasize the negative and the personal. I do think my view is superior to yours actually. And you must think yours is too, or you would not argue. ( I think I try not to be nasty though...)
I didn't misread you, but you claimed I said things that I didn't. I happen to be on a topic where there is a lot of negativity and I am sorry but the word complaint doesn't cut when I am talking about US slavery and treatment of Native Americans. Your view is that you are more optimistic than I am and I agree that you are. And you really think your view is superior, no, it is just different. However, it was clear to me that you assume that I am naive or stupid or raging with anger. I am not. Most of what I have described in history makes me sad, not angry. When I was at Auschwitz, i felt tremendous sadness because that is the energy that is so thick there. You made some assertions that I do disagree with and that is why I'm answering you, not because I think my view is necessarily superior and I also made it clear that in terms of climate change and humankind, I cannot be optimistic. I had a conversation with someone here who claimed she was not rude or offensive because she didn't name call. There are plenty of ways to do that without ever being exactly impolite, but there is a tone and you have plenty of that. And if I remember correctly, you started this thread when you could have just scrolled by. So stop complaining, and you are, about the fact that I have disagreed with your view.
Well then instead of telling me to reread what i said to discover what was disgusting, perhaps you should read your much more nasty name calling. You do name call unknown to you apparently. Your tone is every bit as rude as what you describe to me about another conversation. It's not even innuendo. If you were a teacher I wince at the thought of what you were transmitting to children if it was in this manner. Speaking of your lecture here, which goes on and on scattered, unnecessarily personally as well as defensively, you have never answered my essential points. Go back and reread ( as you say to me) and read your own complaints. Additionally you are no more on topic here generally with all that you have brought up than I am, quite the contrary. And I would not be so sure that your age and experience is superior to mine, certainly not wisdom because by now you would know that humanity is like it is including you and me and like it was in history. If you were wise you would go forward in a positive way. I continue to have hope.
Oh please, go away. I disagree with you, that's all. Words have meaning and nasty is not a word I would use for either view on this thread. However, this final post of yours
is rude, offensive, and nasty. I am old, but not bitter. You don't know me at all, only over the post that I chose to make and you chose, you chose to respond and you chose to keep responding to me. I would suggest that you not answer me because if I see your name in my feed, I will delete it without reading whatever insult you decide to post. I have the feeling that you are offended whenever anyone has the gall to disagree with you. Done with you, Potter.
Reading or listening to a podcast series on Lewis & Clark is instructive too. It wasn't always unfriendly and lack of respect. We and they are not all good and all bad. Encounters that spread disease were inevitable. Native Americans were custodians of the land- they had a different "world view" entirely than Europeans. Maybe they thought it was theirs. It's not reasonable to think that they could've continued to control the land. But we did fight and conquer, made treaties too. Might made right back then. We are still working on that one. The good of us try to make it up to them now, and to the descendants of slaves. We try. But again people are not all bad nor all good. I still reject the broad statement that you make about our (meaning this country in particular) history being responsible for a lot of the problems we see today. We have also been remedial and progressive.
The British brought much good along with bad aspect of colonialism: exploitation, the attitude of the "white man's burden" (white supremacy). Pretending this did not happen is not what I am talking about, guilt is.
We have arrived to today. How do we behave, what do we do today? Asking what we owe collectively is valid.
But neither you nor I nor anyone needs to own guilt especially from a selective reading of long years, centuries of collective history ... "500 years or so we have managed to destroy ...." We collectively have produced some pretty good and glorious things as well.
I have said clearly that I do not feel guilty or responsible for what happened in the past. I do feel responsible for doing my best to garden organically for example and buy from local farmers, preferably organic. However, I have Mr. Chemical living across the street who mows his lawn every other day with a big honking riding lawn mower for his postage stamp lawn. I find your explanation of our interaction with Native Americans disgusting. History does matter and people have long memories. My husband has Lakota ancestry and we are in touch with many of his relatives and believe me, they are still suffering and quite aware of our awful history with them. As for the British Empire, ask their former colonies and read Legacy of Violence which is about said empire and it is quite clear that many problems today, the Middle East for example, are a direct result. Yes, there are good people, but not so many among the most powerful who are usually opportunists and often criminals...think Bush and death star families. If we have an economic crisis over the debt and ordinary people suffer, the greeds will be read to swoop in to get whatever they can at a bargain price. As for the climate crisis, it is here. And we will have more floods, droughts, horrific storms, raising sea level, extinction, etc. I am 80 and have no children, so no direct family to face the future. I have ex-students who are not going to have children and some who have only one. The wealthy think their money will save them and some of the religious think there will be a second coming, so why worry....after all, they are among the saved. I do know many good individuals who are doing their best, so I do not view everyone as bad. As for progress, we have made some in social issues which the Rs are going their best to destroy. And yes, I do appreciate music and art, so I see some good there. Btw, there is a new book out about artists and writers who produced great work, but were terrible human beings....a conundrum perhaps for their admirers.
I find your take (crusade) on history, dragging the long history forward about damage done to the world and particularly your (or your husband's people) the anger and resentment, a real drag. You are focussing on the negative. My father ended his life sour about humanity, feeling he had have a gun at his door double locked for fear of his law breaking neighbors. I am Jewish and have a lot of history to focus on, to remember and hate if I choose - even in this country's history. But Jews as well as Blacks and Native Americans have added positively to this country and to the world. You might have come to some realization that much of humanity has gone forward from "the white man's burden". I think it was a religious belief. Superiority was ( and is) too. It's human and perseveres up to the white supremacy faction amongst us. It's by no means the majority of us. But it's loud, makes trouble and calls others like-minded and insecure perhaps out of the closet nevertheless. Part of enlightening others, including about organics ( I have been mostly organic for many many years and compost too, plant trees) is to bring everyone on board to save the planet. This is not an easy thing to do nor even agreed upon, unfortunately. You might understand or accept this a bit better, that we have good and bad in us and don't all agree. Both register in the world today. You could ask your neighbor to tone it down and invite him over to see your garden.
I get your own feeling of superiority and your anger... "disgusting". is a bit strong. Convince me why you use that word. Which is why I responded. I am a positive and hopeful person, or try to be.
I have a degree in art & am familiar with this not new question about artists. Can artists who we consider bad people make good art? I decided to accept Picasso as a phenomenally amazing artist regardless. There are many others in the arts. Some of my favorites, Dostoevsky was anti-semitic,... Degas virulently so. People thought/felt this way, were brought up this way. Some still do.
I do agree that there are good and bad people, but I stick with what I have said about people in power and our particular history when it comes to Native Americans and slavery. Where exactly did I say that any of the groups you have mentioned have not contributed good things to this world. I have had many personal encounters with people who show their racism when they think that they are with lily whites (doesn't exist btw), so it isn't dead at all. The history of how Native Americans and POC have been treated continues to this very day and I would love to see what his relatives would have to say to you. None of this nonsense has stopped and the discrimination continues. And the laugh of the day....the county has contacted our neighbor many times including the deputy sheriff about his noise, not the lawn mower noise. He also has a shop where for a long time he roared unmuffled engines full tilt until finally his wife put a stop to it. He also lied to our neighbors telling him that he had no idea he bothered us. We talked to him personally many times before we called the county. He is a jackass, period and of course, a conservative R. In our neighborhood on the block that runs behind us, people have engaged in two different law suits and talking didn't do any good. I don't know where you get the idea that I feel superior. I don't. But I am a history major, I taught it, I read voraciously. I have had to give up reading a couple books about cotton slavery and the removal of Native Americans because they were so awful and heart rending. Also I am a woman, so I do have an idea about being treated as a second class person, including tons of mansplaining and one of our neighbors does this every time I say something hopeful, so I am while I am not optimistic about the future of the planet, I cannot live in that negative space all the time. I don't go around angry all the time either, but I will not remain silent about the not so good aspects of our history. I haven't read the book Monsters, and I do like Picasso although when I was reading a bio of him, I couldn't stand him as person. It does present a conundrum to some people. I will be interested to hear what a couple of good friends (women) who are artists will have to say about this. And now, Potter, I am truly done conversing with you.
Oh good.. you have a lot of complaints... which is what got me. There is no conversation since you bring in everything but the kitchen sink and use excuses for your grievance, concentrating on the negative, and touting your entitlement to feel this way personally. At this point in your life you should possibly accept human nature and history.
I feel the way I do because I have read the history and encountered enough through my 80 years to stand by the idea that all of what we have done is not wonderful. These are not complaints, but adherence to the facts of history. You do remind me of a Lakota I encountered when I accidentally used the word Sioux and he told me it was Lakota and I said OK, I didn't realize that was some kind of slur. His hashtag is all land returned and he informed me that if I showed on the Pine Ridge I would be beaten and killed. Now that is anger. The relative whose thread it was told him off on my behalf and blocked him. And this last post of yours is about how superior your view is and my stand is that you have misread a lot of what I have said. I do understand human nature which is one of the reasons I cannot be optimistic about the future of the planet. And I am "entitled"....what a laugh. And the kitchen sink....you are truly full of yourself.
I am not optimistic either after such encounters. I never said all of what we do is wonderful. You misread me. I said you emphasize the negative and the personal. I do think my view is superior to yours actually. And you must think yours is too, or you would not argue. ( I think I try not to be nasty though...)
I didn't misread you, but you claimed I said things that I didn't. I happen to be on a topic where there is a lot of negativity and I am sorry but the word complaint doesn't cut when I am talking about US slavery and treatment of Native Americans. Your view is that you are more optimistic than I am and I agree that you are. And you really think your view is superior, no, it is just different. However, it was clear to me that you assume that I am naive or stupid or raging with anger. I am not. Most of what I have described in history makes me sad, not angry. When I was at Auschwitz, i felt tremendous sadness because that is the energy that is so thick there. You made some assertions that I do disagree with and that is why I'm answering you, not because I think my view is necessarily superior and I also made it clear that in terms of climate change and humankind, I cannot be optimistic. I had a conversation with someone here who claimed she was not rude or offensive because she didn't name call. There are plenty of ways to do that without ever being exactly impolite, but there is a tone and you have plenty of that. And if I remember correctly, you started this thread when you could have just scrolled by. So stop complaining, and you are, about the fact that I have disagreed with your view.
Well then instead of telling me to reread what i said to discover what was disgusting, perhaps you should read your much more nasty name calling. You do name call unknown to you apparently. Your tone is every bit as rude as what you describe to me about another conversation. It's not even innuendo. If you were a teacher I wince at the thought of what you were transmitting to children if it was in this manner. Speaking of your lecture here, which goes on and on scattered, unnecessarily personally as well as defensively, you have never answered my essential points. Go back and reread ( as you say to me) and read your own complaints. Additionally you are no more on topic here generally with all that you have brought up than I am, quite the contrary. And I would not be so sure that your age and experience is superior to mine, certainly not wisdom because by now you would know that humanity is like it is including you and me and like it was in history. If you were wise you would go forward in a positive way. I continue to have hope.
" I find your explanation of our interaction with Native Americans disgusting. " Please explain...
Reread your post. I am done wasting energy responding to you.
you are an example of nasty....a bitter old person
Oh please, go away. I disagree with you, that's all. Words have meaning and nasty is not a word I would use for either view on this thread. However, this final post of yours
is rude, offensive, and nasty. I am old, but not bitter. You don't know me at all, only over the post that I chose to make and you chose, you chose to respond and you chose to keep responding to me. I would suggest that you not answer me because if I see your name in my feed, I will delete it without reading whatever insult you decide to post. I have the feeling that you are offended whenever anyone has the gall to disagree with you. Done with you, Potter.
Look up nasty, teacher. Much less offensive that the words and tone you use.