Philosophically, yes. Losing elections due to the desire to remain on "higher moral ground" is not a good thing. Especially when the present form of government is on shaky ground.
Philosophically, yes. Losing elections due to the desire to remain on "higher moral ground" is not a good thing. Especially when the present form of government is on shaky ground.
Losing elections because you refuse to engage in illegal and/or amoral activities is right. We have to believe the rule of law will win out. Otherwise, abandon the country, it’s just a race to the bottom.
We're already in a race to the bottom. In fact, we're now in a race for survival of the unique US democratic representative form of government. Losing has never faced worse consequences--except when Lincoln faced dissolution of the Union if he didn't win.
Would you have the Democrats lose by refusing to use the same tactics just so they can claim "well, we lost, but played on higher moral ground." Politics has no morals.
If politics has no morals, then politics has no meaning. If Democrats resort to the same tactics as Republicans, then our “democratic representative form of government” is lost.
The definition of "politics" is defined as: "the activities involved in getting and using power in public life, and being able to influence decisions that affect a country or society." OED
While we all would like "morals" to be involved in those activities (both the getting and using power and being able to influence decisions), that has not been the reality for thousands of years. I highly recommend the movies "A Man For All Seasons" on this.
Without getting power, one cannot use power. Without getting power, one cannot influence decisions. If one political party uses the strategy of "whatever it takes to get/stay in power," the opposing political party cannot either ignore that strategy, nor assume an opposite strategy of a "higher moral ground" will be successful--not after Trump and 1/6.
In 2009, Republicans saw that they only needed to win 5 statehouses to control the redistricting that would happen after the 2010 census--Operation Red Map. The Democrats didn't even see what was happening/or couldn't conceive any political party would do that--deliberately skew the playing field so greatly--until they won huge majorities in 2012 and lost seats.
When the Democratic Party been successful using "higher moral ground" tactics? Gore won the 2000 election, but graciously conceded when the Republican SCOTUS stopped the recount in Florida--even though Gore still had legal options to pursue; he didn't think it would be good for the nation. Several Constitutional scholars put forth solid arguments for Obama to step in on the Merrick Garland nomination obstruction, but he wanted to respect the Senate's rules. Obama also didn't go ahead and announce Russia's involvement on Trump's behalf in 2016 because Mitch McConnell refused to issue a bipartisan statement. Democrats are too often willing to give away power to "play fair."
Elected Republicans in states and in the federal government were willing--eager--to overturn a legally-decided election they lost. Does anyone think that now that they have perfected the plan--testing it with the brainless crash dummy first--they won't use it again? Some of them are already bragging Democrats will never win again in their states.
Is this really the time to claim politics must have a "moral center" when one party has already demonstrated--more than once--it doesn't have one, and also sees the Democrats' having one as weakness to be exploited? What "moral center" do you think Republicans will demonstrate in their use of power in influencing the decisions of our society?
IF Democrats can get and use power in sufficient quantity--Biden has nothing to work with--a moral center can be re-established. That has happened several times before in US history. If Republicans get and use power in sufficient quantity--their lack of moral center will be even more apparent without Trump to blame.
We've all already seen what Republicans are willing to encourage and support. If Democrats don't fight as hard as they can, with everything they can think of, the present from of government will continue to follow Victor Orban's playbook toward authoritarian fascism.
“Is this really the time to claim politics must have a "moral center"?” Yes. If you are willing to subvert democracy to gain power, you’re the same as Republicans. In which case, I want you to lose, too.
How nice of you to put words in my mouth. Where did I state I wanted to subvert democracy? I said it’s time—past time—for Democrats to fight on a level playing field rather than worrying that the most important thing wasn’t winning, but to be able to claim the moral high ground.
I don’t find those words in my posts,but you believe they are there.How nice to have my actual words re-interpreted. Part of the massive miscommunication problem in the US today
Politics is, and always has been, a very dirty game.
The question is not whether the ends justify the means at this particular time in US history; the question is whether the price of Democrats losing in order to be able to claim "the moral high ground" is worth paying.
For me, the answer is that it's not worth paying. Not after January 6, 2021, and the continued support by too many in the Republican Party for The Big Lie. Republicans across the nation now have a road-tested plan to overturn legitimate elections--they'll run the play again and again. Now is not the time for the Democrats to bring a knife against an AR-15.
Philosophically, yes. Losing elections due to the desire to remain on "higher moral ground" is not a good thing. Especially when the present form of government is on shaky ground.
Losing elections because you refuse to engage in illegal and/or amoral activities is right. We have to believe the rule of law will win out. Otherwise, abandon the country, it’s just a race to the bottom.
We're already in a race to the bottom. In fact, we're now in a race for survival of the unique US democratic representative form of government. Losing has never faced worse consequences--except when Lincoln faced dissolution of the Union if he didn't win.
Would you have the Democrats lose by refusing to use the same tactics just so they can claim "well, we lost, but played on higher moral ground." Politics has no morals.
If politics has no morals, then politics has no meaning. If Democrats resort to the same tactics as Republicans, then our “democratic representative form of government” is lost.
The definition of "politics" is defined as: "the activities involved in getting and using power in public life, and being able to influence decisions that affect a country or society." OED
While we all would like "morals" to be involved in those activities (both the getting and using power and being able to influence decisions), that has not been the reality for thousands of years. I highly recommend the movies "A Man For All Seasons" on this.
Without getting power, one cannot use power. Without getting power, one cannot influence decisions. If one political party uses the strategy of "whatever it takes to get/stay in power," the opposing political party cannot either ignore that strategy, nor assume an opposite strategy of a "higher moral ground" will be successful--not after Trump and 1/6.
In 2009, Republicans saw that they only needed to win 5 statehouses to control the redistricting that would happen after the 2010 census--Operation Red Map. The Democrats didn't even see what was happening/or couldn't conceive any political party would do that--deliberately skew the playing field so greatly--until they won huge majorities in 2012 and lost seats.
When the Democratic Party been successful using "higher moral ground" tactics? Gore won the 2000 election, but graciously conceded when the Republican SCOTUS stopped the recount in Florida--even though Gore still had legal options to pursue; he didn't think it would be good for the nation. Several Constitutional scholars put forth solid arguments for Obama to step in on the Merrick Garland nomination obstruction, but he wanted to respect the Senate's rules. Obama also didn't go ahead and announce Russia's involvement on Trump's behalf in 2016 because Mitch McConnell refused to issue a bipartisan statement. Democrats are too often willing to give away power to "play fair."
Elected Republicans in states and in the federal government were willing--eager--to overturn a legally-decided election they lost. Does anyone think that now that they have perfected the plan--testing it with the brainless crash dummy first--they won't use it again? Some of them are already bragging Democrats will never win again in their states.
Is this really the time to claim politics must have a "moral center" when one party has already demonstrated--more than once--it doesn't have one, and also sees the Democrats' having one as weakness to be exploited? What "moral center" do you think Republicans will demonstrate in their use of power in influencing the decisions of our society?
IF Democrats can get and use power in sufficient quantity--Biden has nothing to work with--a moral center can be re-established. That has happened several times before in US history. If Republicans get and use power in sufficient quantity--their lack of moral center will be even more apparent without Trump to blame.
We've all already seen what Republicans are willing to encourage and support. If Democrats don't fight as hard as they can, with everything they can think of, the present from of government will continue to follow Victor Orban's playbook toward authoritarian fascism.
“Is this really the time to claim politics must have a "moral center"?” Yes. If you are willing to subvert democracy to gain power, you’re the same as Republicans. In which case, I want you to lose, too.
How nice of you to put words in my mouth. Where did I state I wanted to subvert democracy? I said it’s time—past time—for Democrats to fight on a level playing field rather than worrying that the most important thing wasn’t winning, but to be able to claim the moral high ground.
Republicans are subverting democracy. You want Dems to do the same thing. Those are your words.
I don’t find those words in my posts,but you believe they are there.How nice to have my actual words re-interpreted. Part of the massive miscommunication problem in the US today
The question - do the ends justify the means, and do you give up your humanity if you engage in the same dirty tactics?
Politics is, and always has been, a very dirty game.
The question is not whether the ends justify the means at this particular time in US history; the question is whether the price of Democrats losing in order to be able to claim "the moral high ground" is worth paying.
For me, the answer is that it's not worth paying. Not after January 6, 2021, and the continued support by too many in the Republican Party for The Big Lie. Republicans across the nation now have a road-tested plan to overturn legitimate elections--they'll run the play again and again. Now is not the time for the Democrats to bring a knife against an AR-15.