J L, exactly. We need to come to together and we won't have the first two words of your post if we don't have a livable planet. it will be an ugly scrabble for survival and we are seeing the first instances of this already. Salem (OR) just elected a mayor bought and paid for by the people who do not care about a livable planet, only maki…
J L, exactly. We need to come to together and we won't have the first two words of your post if we don't have a livable planet. it will be an ugly scrabble for survival and we are seeing the first instances of this already. Salem (OR) just elected a mayor bought and paid for by the people who do not care about a livable planet, only making more money and covering all the land with something that will grow their bank accounts. Coming together also means working with good people of faith. Lately i have been seeing memes dissing religion as if every believer is the same and takes the Bible literally while extolling science as if it has the answer to everything, never turns out to be wrong, and never changes. i have blocked two of them who seem to believe that f bombs make a good argument. The problem is with those who want a theocracy here run by white nationalist pseudo Christians who are willing to use death star as a means to achieve this and those are the people we need to call out and vote out of power.
I agree with the important parts of this, Michele, but I cannot see science as the problem. Science can help us all have better lives even though we ignore or suppress it when it tells us to take action that the money-changers resist as wrt to climate change. Like science, religion can and has been used to support unimaginable horrors on the planet. What we need is compassion, empathy and determination to find the greatest good for the greatest number and make that our goal.
John, i think you have delineated the problem with science. it isn't always right. Some experiments are not very good and/ or are paid for by companies looking to sell a cure. There has also been plenty of stealing of work as well. And yes, it can be used to support and design incredible horrors. i am actually not saying that science is a problem, but i do have a problem painting all people of faith with a negative brush. i would say Native American beliefs and spirituality can help us with climate change. Agree totally with your final sentence. That is my hope.
Yep, fortunately science is self-correcting in its efforts to improve our understanding of things. Some indeed misuse it in attempts to make money. TRUTH and honesty are what matters. All useful understanding depends in both. IMO nobody should ridicule honest beliefs held by others about matters of which there can be no certainty. However, hypocrisy is abhorrent as are attempts to force others, without their agreement, to act in accordance with one’s own beliefs. Useful social compacts result from general agreement about acceptable behaviour. Let’s hold fast to the notion of GGFGN! 😊
The religious people I very much admire are humble and humane. Those who claim to be religious who also claim to have all the answers and the God-given right to force them on others, seem to me the opposite of anything Jesus recommended. I think of science as paying very careful attention to the way things are, and quarrel when people want to reject what can be reasonably proven for Biblical literalism. Some of the same people who claim every item in the Bible is literal fact have also claimed that Jesus was not really talking about real enemies when he said "love thy enemy" and you have to have special knowledge (as they do) to realize that. I think that scientific thinking gives us a much clearer picture of our circumstances, and can help us to prioritize our choices, but it is not designed to (nor can it) to deliver ethical choices. For that, we have to probe our own inner values and learn from each other in ways that allows us to question our own selfish motives. We all are obliged to look out for ourselves, but become toxic when we fail to look out for each other. Freedom defined as impunity for the individual can become sociopathy. Freedom worthy of the name is achieved socially. Isn't that what the Constitution tries to reinforce? "We the People..."?
So long as a person is not hurting others, how they come by an abiding sense of fairness and responsibilities to others seems to me beside the point. I am not religious in any conventional manner, but among my greatest heroes are Desmond Tutu, the Dalai Lama, and MLK. Faux-pious Republicans have corrupted Jesus's message of kindness. I wish more of his faithful followers would visibly stand together against that. When greed and ego push every other value out of the nest, it becomes truly evil.
"Accustomed to trample on the rights of those around you, you have lost the genius of your own independence, and become the fit subjects of the first cunning tyrant who rises." - Lincoln
“Science never claims to have the final word on anything, religion claims to have the final word on everything.” Don’t remember where I saw that, but so true…
Unfortunately, many people do not understand science nor do they understand that some scientists are people of faith. Sometimes a particular discipline does not disprove certain things in religion. Prayer, for example, is not disproved by statistics and if it is not merely asking for something and is mediative, the health consequences can be measured. Fundamentalists of all kinds claim to have the final word on everything.
this reminds me of how the segment of Ken Burn's commencement speech to Brandeis (with its powerful Jewish history) about how we need to find the "us" and "we" in our country again. while what he was Actually setting up, and which barely got any coverage, was a break in his famous "neutrality."
The part of the speech where he made it clear that we need to come together, but the choice is Clear. We must make the choice to save our democracy.
Some Christians, a very small number from what I've seen, are coming out in favor of democracy and the Clear Choice of tolerance, non-judgement and love, but Not Enough and Not Loudly Enough.
I'm always glad to find someone who is Christian, I assume you are, who is willing to break from the flock and actually practice "do unto others."
I hope you can amplify your voice in support of the oppressed, the needy, the non-white, the women who need abortion as healthcare, the LGBTQia community and all the others that many "christians" are attacking day in and day out.
Yes, we need to find the we. I am not a Christian actually, but a person who believes in the universal energy whatever people want to call that. For years my husband sneered at Christians without making a distinction between good people of faith and hypocrites and pharisees. We have a friend who is a Christian and is the most grounded person i know and her energy is a comforting presence. She is also one of the those people whose faith does what you have described in terms of social issues. i had a friend on Facebook, since blocked, who constantly posted memes under the name faith is a mental illness. I am sure it is for some and certainly magnifies hate of anyone who is different...which is not what Jesus taught in the first three Gospels. Most of the people, when I defended good people of faith and said many people welcome prayer simply because they need support, assumed I was some kind of religious fundamentalist nut. I kept telling them that they had no idea of what I believed or did not believe. Some of them thought they were too clever by half and failed to understand what I actually wrote. And if I made a point, for example, yes, Jesus is mentioned outside the Bible, very briefly in Josephus, they ignored it. MY husband looked up studies on the efficacy of prayer and found out that studies can be fraught with problems, but when it is meditative, good health results can be measured. I never send people prayers, btw, because I don't pray, but instead healing reiki energy which probably amounts to the same thing if they feel supported by it. You need not strike do unto others because the same sentiment is found in many religions as a way to tell people to treat others as they would want others to treat them. I never judge a faith or a belief by the fundamentalists, hypocrites, and haters. I have often mentioned Native American beliefs and myths as a way of approaching nature.
J L, exactly. We need to come to together and we won't have the first two words of your post if we don't have a livable planet. it will be an ugly scrabble for survival and we are seeing the first instances of this already. Salem (OR) just elected a mayor bought and paid for by the people who do not care about a livable planet, only making more money and covering all the land with something that will grow their bank accounts. Coming together also means working with good people of faith. Lately i have been seeing memes dissing religion as if every believer is the same and takes the Bible literally while extolling science as if it has the answer to everything, never turns out to be wrong, and never changes. i have blocked two of them who seem to believe that f bombs make a good argument. The problem is with those who want a theocracy here run by white nationalist pseudo Christians who are willing to use death star as a means to achieve this and those are the people we need to call out and vote out of power.
I agree with the important parts of this, Michele, but I cannot see science as the problem. Science can help us all have better lives even though we ignore or suppress it when it tells us to take action that the money-changers resist as wrt to climate change. Like science, religion can and has been used to support unimaginable horrors on the planet. What we need is compassion, empathy and determination to find the greatest good for the greatest number and make that our goal.
John, i think you have delineated the problem with science. it isn't always right. Some experiments are not very good and/ or are paid for by companies looking to sell a cure. There has also been plenty of stealing of work as well. And yes, it can be used to support and design incredible horrors. i am actually not saying that science is a problem, but i do have a problem painting all people of faith with a negative brush. i would say Native American beliefs and spirituality can help us with climate change. Agree totally with your final sentence. That is my hope.
Yep, fortunately science is self-correcting in its efforts to improve our understanding of things. Some indeed misuse it in attempts to make money. TRUTH and honesty are what matters. All useful understanding depends in both. IMO nobody should ridicule honest beliefs held by others about matters of which there can be no certainty. However, hypocrisy is abhorrent as are attempts to force others, without their agreement, to act in accordance with one’s own beliefs. Useful social compacts result from general agreement about acceptable behaviour. Let’s hold fast to the notion of GGFGN! 😊
what is GGFGN?
Greatest Good For Greatest Number
The religious people I very much admire are humble and humane. Those who claim to be religious who also claim to have all the answers and the God-given right to force them on others, seem to me the opposite of anything Jesus recommended. I think of science as paying very careful attention to the way things are, and quarrel when people want to reject what can be reasonably proven for Biblical literalism. Some of the same people who claim every item in the Bible is literal fact have also claimed that Jesus was not really talking about real enemies when he said "love thy enemy" and you have to have special knowledge (as they do) to realize that. I think that scientific thinking gives us a much clearer picture of our circumstances, and can help us to prioritize our choices, but it is not designed to (nor can it) to deliver ethical choices. For that, we have to probe our own inner values and learn from each other in ways that allows us to question our own selfish motives. We all are obliged to look out for ourselves, but become toxic when we fail to look out for each other. Freedom defined as impunity for the individual can become sociopathy. Freedom worthy of the name is achieved socially. Isn't that what the Constitution tries to reinforce? "We the People..."?
So long as a person is not hurting others, how they come by an abiding sense of fairness and responsibilities to others seems to me beside the point. I am not religious in any conventional manner, but among my greatest heroes are Desmond Tutu, the Dalai Lama, and MLK. Faux-pious Republicans have corrupted Jesus's message of kindness. I wish more of his faithful followers would visibly stand together against that. When greed and ego push every other value out of the nest, it becomes truly evil.
"Accustomed to trample on the rights of those around you, you have lost the genius of your own independence, and become the fit subjects of the first cunning tyrant who rises." - Lincoln
you said it so much more kindly and clearly than I did. Thank you
Very well said JL I agree completely. i have no idea if I was going to say more because i am just in from the garden.
One if my favorite sayings is
“Science never claims to have the final word on anything, religion claims to have the final word on everything.” Don’t remember where I saw that, but so true…
Unfortunately, many people do not understand science nor do they understand that some scientists are people of faith. Sometimes a particular discipline does not disprove certain things in religion. Prayer, for example, is not disproved by statistics and if it is not merely asking for something and is mediative, the health consequences can be measured. Fundamentalists of all kinds claim to have the final word on everything.
Yes they do, I reject fundamentalists of every stripe
this reminds me of how the segment of Ken Burn's commencement speech to Brandeis (with its powerful Jewish history) about how we need to find the "us" and "we" in our country again. while what he was Actually setting up, and which barely got any coverage, was a break in his famous "neutrality."
The part of the speech where he made it clear that we need to come together, but the choice is Clear. We must make the choice to save our democracy.
Some Christians, a very small number from what I've seen, are coming out in favor of democracy and the Clear Choice of tolerance, non-judgement and love, but Not Enough and Not Loudly Enough.
I'm always glad to find someone who is Christian, I assume you are, who is willing to break from the flock and actually practice "do unto others."
I hope you can amplify your voice in support of the oppressed, the needy, the non-white, the women who need abortion as healthcare, the LGBTQia community and all the others that many "christians" are attacking day in and day out.
Yes, we need to find the we. I am not a Christian actually, but a person who believes in the universal energy whatever people want to call that. For years my husband sneered at Christians without making a distinction between good people of faith and hypocrites and pharisees. We have a friend who is a Christian and is the most grounded person i know and her energy is a comforting presence. She is also one of the those people whose faith does what you have described in terms of social issues. i had a friend on Facebook, since blocked, who constantly posted memes under the name faith is a mental illness. I am sure it is for some and certainly magnifies hate of anyone who is different...which is not what Jesus taught in the first three Gospels. Most of the people, when I defended good people of faith and said many people welcome prayer simply because they need support, assumed I was some kind of religious fundamentalist nut. I kept telling them that they had no idea of what I believed or did not believe. Some of them thought they were too clever by half and failed to understand what I actually wrote. And if I made a point, for example, yes, Jesus is mentioned outside the Bible, very briefly in Josephus, they ignored it. MY husband looked up studies on the efficacy of prayer and found out that studies can be fraught with problems, but when it is meditative, good health results can be measured. I never send people prayers, btw, because I don't pray, but instead healing reiki energy which probably amounts to the same thing if they feel supported by it. You need not strike do unto others because the same sentiment is found in many religions as a way to tell people to treat others as they would want others to treat them. I never judge a faith or a belief by the fundamentalists, hypocrites, and haters. I have often mentioned Native American beliefs and myths as a way of approaching nature.
actually even "do unto others..." would be twisted in the hands of many "Christians" today so strike that.