And unfortunately they feel exactly the same about you...two sides of the same problem. Two parties that, in the view of "the other side", are moving towards the extremes and leaving the center bare...and available for new parties to emerge and better represent all of the people.
Though I agree with you in principle, I think the urge to declare that both sides are equally to blame is a dangerous one. The U.S. is not divided along progressive and conservative lines, not really. What we have is an extreme, radical right wing battling to pull the country ever further into their nihilistic vision with moderates and progressives resisting that pull. Practically speaking, the end result has been that the center is far from bare; rather, the extremity of the rightward pull exerted by Tea Party/Trumpists had dragged the entire debate to the center and away from true progressive values.
But you have to look also at the stresses and strains in the Democratic Party showing similar movements away from what was called the center. Biden is not a SuperHero with infinitly stretchable limbs enabling to hold the different sides together and keep a foot in both camps indefinitely on his own. Then I would say that, currently, the center is stretching thin in the elected sense and not in the electors sense of things. The largest part of the electorate will always huddle around the middle and thus the parties are leaving space for others to represent them more closely.
If I understand what you are saying here, the insistence of the progressive wing of the party is exerting a strain from the left, but I would contend that what the progressives are advocating are inherently centrist views. Universal health care, racial justice, wealth redistribution, tax fairness, and reproductive rights are only controversial because a radical right has indoctrinated so many people to think of those principles as dangerous socialism, when what they are in fact is common sense and simple decency.
Reid, I agree. For a number of years, IтАЩve watched this shift in the political spectrum. It makes me laugh, when rightists tar progressives with the Leftist Liberal brush. There is, in effect, no Left left. The space formerly occupied by moderates is now to the right of center. Center is as far left as we go. When the center is viewed as radical socialism, somethingтАЩs bad wrong.
You know, I've been thinking for some time now that how in the heck did we, as a country, come to accept "cheating" as an OK thing? We're taught from an early age not to cheat and yet the Republicans have now agreed that cheating is fine. It is as basic as that.
I have to admit that, 65 years into this life and 30 years into right wing lies as Republican policy, my breath can still be taken away by the sheer audacity they show. Either they are severely mentally ill or they have to know that most of what they're saying isn't true. Or perhaps Orwell was right that the lies you tell to control others eventually take over your reality. In either case, I cannot, even with my fertile imagination, get inside those twisted heads enough to understand.
I disagree with that Stuart. Its a false equivalence to compare the fringes of both parties. One is full on pro voter suppression, rigging elections, gerrymandering, a big lie, promoting and passing laws to make it lawful to refuse to vote certification, and validating political violence as a means to do more than intimidate. While the other is working for equality before the law, the establishment of laws to protect citizens from extrajudicial killings (legal murder before being charged or taken to jail), stronger voting rights. These are not equivalent. One is working towards totalitarianism, the other towards individualism. We can not have both in this country.
Why should she be expected to? Despite her clarity of vision in regard to the ex-president and the "big lie," she is still a right wing Republican in full support of that party's anti-democratic agenda on both national, state and local levels.
If course she refused. She just wants Trump out of the way for her own run. Most Repubs these days тАЬneedтАЭ the voter suppression to win. Or do they think.
It is interesting to note, though, isn't it, that most of the Never Trump conservatives seem to be sitting this fight out and waiting to see what happens. They don't seem to realize that THEY are what is needed to make something happen. I have a bit of concern that inertia could allow that boisterous 14% to continue to control the party. The loud and aggressive almost always prevail in American politics.
She certainly doesn't see herself remaining in the role of Woglunde, Wellgunda or Flosshilde.....rather as Erda, the earth mother! That however makes Trump into Wotan whom she warns to "foresake the ring". I would see Trump more in the role of Aberich corruptly obtaining the gold in the first place...and then losing it. The opera still has 3 operas to go to complete the Ring.....time for the "good gods" to sort out themselves and the world hopefully. in the meantime, the music is going to be highly "emotional".
The patron and financier of Wagner, the unfortunate Ludwig of Bavaria (and brother of Sissi the last Austro Hungarian Empress), came to a very sticky end when he really started to embarass the "powers that be" in Munich.
Much prefer Puccini and Verdi anyway! Not all the gods have gone of into the wild blue yonder however as we still have the god of money being worshiped everywhere.
As an opera fan, I felt like I "had to" do the Ring Cycle at least once and I fell in love with it. It's an immersive experience and incredibly moving. Also reactionary and slyly white supremacist, but overall it's (in my reading) about the struggle to remain relevant in a changing world, the evils of greed, and, above all, the deep ambivalence and emotional work of being a parent. I have now been to two complete cycles (Seattle and San Francisco) and will gladly do another when Covid gives me the opportunity.
I agree, Bayreuth would be the gold standard; 145 years of history! Not sure I could ever justify the trip just for that, but combined with other joys (read: things that would make my wife agree the trip was worthwhile) I might be able to do that. The problem being that for four or five days I'm sitting in an opera house and she is...doing what? Probably never happen.
it can be done mostly in the evenings and you get to dress up but 4-5 hours is a long, hard slog if you are not an afficionado. I must say , i had more fun doing a matin├й of Madame Butterfly at Covent Garden or standing in the "gods" in Vienna to hear Ruggiero Raimondi in Mussorgsky's "Pictures at an exhibition" and being able to go have dinner somewhere after.
But happily not 74 million. It's a start and it leaves 31 million for Liz Cheney etc to chew on.
Yes, Stuart, but that makes me uneasy also. Just so hard to trust Liz or any other Repub.
And unfortunately they feel exactly the same about you...two sides of the same problem. Two parties that, in the view of "the other side", are moving towards the extremes and leaving the center bare...and available for new parties to emerge and better represent all of the people.
Though I agree with you in principle, I think the urge to declare that both sides are equally to blame is a dangerous one. The U.S. is not divided along progressive and conservative lines, not really. What we have is an extreme, radical right wing battling to pull the country ever further into their nihilistic vision with moderates and progressives resisting that pull. Practically speaking, the end result has been that the center is far from bare; rather, the extremity of the rightward pull exerted by Tea Party/Trumpists had dragged the entire debate to the center and away from true progressive values.
Yes. Well said. Sadly.
But you have to look also at the stresses and strains in the Democratic Party showing similar movements away from what was called the center. Biden is not a SuperHero with infinitly stretchable limbs enabling to hold the different sides together and keep a foot in both camps indefinitely on his own. Then I would say that, currently, the center is stretching thin in the elected sense and not in the electors sense of things. The largest part of the electorate will always huddle around the middle and thus the parties are leaving space for others to represent them more closely.
If I understand what you are saying here, the insistence of the progressive wing of the party is exerting a strain from the left, but I would contend that what the progressives are advocating are inherently centrist views. Universal health care, racial justice, wealth redistribution, tax fairness, and reproductive rights are only controversial because a radical right has indoctrinated so many people to think of those principles as dangerous socialism, when what they are in fact is common sense and simple decency.
Reid, I agree. For a number of years, IтАЩve watched this shift in the political spectrum. It makes me laugh, when rightists tar progressives with the Leftist Liberal brush. There is, in effect, no Left left. The space formerly occupied by moderates is now to the right of center. Center is as far left as we go. When the center is viewed as radical socialism, somethingтАЩs bad wrong.
It's propaganda, pure and simple. Pound away at a lie long enough and loudly enough and it eventually becomes a self-evident truth.
Just like Goebbles used.
Yes. I suspect even he is sitting in hell lost in admiration for the sheer audacity of our current Republican party.
I agree Reid.
Depends where you put the goalposts; where they have been or where one might like them to be.
Or whether you allow one team to illicitly drag the goalposts to a position that favors their side.
You know, I've been thinking for some time now that how in the heck did we, as a country, come to accept "cheating" as an OK thing? We're taught from an early age not to cheat and yet the Republicans have now agreed that cheating is fine. It is as basic as that.
I have to admit that, 65 years into this life and 30 years into right wing lies as Republican policy, my breath can still be taken away by the sheer audacity they show. Either they are severely mentally ill or they have to know that most of what they're saying isn't true. Or perhaps Orwell was right that the lies you tell to control others eventually take over your reality. In either case, I cannot, even with my fertile imagination, get inside those twisted heads enough to understand.
I've wondered that myself, too, Annette.
Which is what the Republicans have been doing since Reagan. The тАЬcenterтАЭ is much further right than it once was.
that's the name of the game.
I disagree with that Stuart. Its a false equivalence to compare the fringes of both parties. One is full on pro voter suppression, rigging elections, gerrymandering, a big lie, promoting and passing laws to make it lawful to refuse to vote certification, and validating political violence as a means to do more than intimidate. While the other is working for equality before the law, the establishment of laws to protect citizens from extrajudicial killings (legal murder before being charged or taken to jail), stronger voting rights. These are not equivalent. One is working towards totalitarianism, the other towards individualism. We can not have both in this country.
I'm not comparing them, Ted, just saying they are pulling further apart.
ah, got it. Too many people here are using that argument.
Why should she be expected to? Despite her clarity of vision in regard to the ex-president and the "big lie," she is still a right wing Republican in full support of that party's anti-democratic agenda on both national, state and local levels.
If course she refused. She just wants Trump out of the way for her own run. Most Repubs these days тАЬneedтАЭ the voter suppression to win. Or do they think.
Liz is making a good bet. Numbers are on her side,
It is interesting to note, though, isn't it, that most of the Never Trump conservatives seem to be sitting this fight out and waiting to see what happens. They don't seem to realize that THEY are what is needed to make something happen. I have a bit of concern that inertia could allow that boisterous 14% to continue to control the party. The loud and aggressive almost always prevail in American politics.
Cowardice is why they APPEAR to be тАЬsitting this fight outтАЭ.
Courage has rarely been the "forte" of the quiet and somewhat timerous!
If she's got the "chuzpah" . She's got the money.
Going off on a tangent... https://youtu.be/52YxdYmLq24
Yes sir! Yes it does
She certainly doesn't see herself remaining in the role of Woglunde, Wellgunda or Flosshilde.....rather as Erda, the earth mother! That however makes Trump into Wotan whom she warns to "foresake the ring". I would see Trump more in the role of Aberich corruptly obtaining the gold in the first place...and then losing it. The opera still has 3 operas to go to complete the Ring.....time for the "good gods" to sort out themselves and the world hopefully. in the meantime, the music is going to be highly "emotional".
The patron and financier of Wagner, the unfortunate Ludwig of Bavaria (and brother of Sissi the last Austro Hungarian Empress), came to a very sticky end when he really started to embarass the "powers that be" in Munich.
It would also behoove us to recall that, despite their erstwhile hegemony, the gods walk over the Rainbow Bridge into irrelevance.
Much prefer Puccini and Verdi anyway! Not all the gods have gone of into the wild blue yonder however as we still have the god of money being worshiped everywhere.
As an opera fan, I felt like I "had to" do the Ring Cycle at least once and I fell in love with it. It's an immersive experience and incredibly moving. Also reactionary and slyly white supremacist, but overall it's (in my reading) about the struggle to remain relevant in a changing world, the evils of greed, and, above all, the deep ambivalence and emotional work of being a parent. I have now been to two complete cycles (Seattle and San Francisco) and will gladly do another when Covid gives me the opportunity.
I find it a bit of a hard, long slog but would like to do it in Bayreuth if anywhere as there it's a "total happening" .
I agree, Bayreuth would be the gold standard; 145 years of history! Not sure I could ever justify the trip just for that, but combined with other joys (read: things that would make my wife agree the trip was worthwhile) I might be able to do that. The problem being that for four or five days I'm sitting in an opera house and she is...doing what? Probably never happen.
it can be done mostly in the evenings and you get to dress up but 4-5 hours is a long, hard slog if you are not an afficionado. I must say , i had more fun doing a matin├й of Madame Butterfly at Covent Garden or standing in the "gods" in Vienna to hear Ruggiero Raimondi in Mussorgsky's "Pictures at an exhibition" and being able to go have dinner somewhere after.
The closest I will ever come to Bayreuth is my enjoyment at reading Artur Rubenstein's experience of attending in his "My Younger Years".
a very bad deal nonetheless and he didn't keep it long. He ended up with no love and no gold!
Boy, is that ever a potent metaphor!
I know, right? How far the country has fallen if we are looking to her to save us.