And I beg to differ. I am sorry to bring this up again. We have a bloody, dark history of crimes against humanity, not unlike the atrocities and experiments of an Auschwitz.
Our native peoples were lied to and decimated in order to take this land, our participation in the colonial enslavement of Africans was to build and enrich white supremacists to create a powerful elite, just like what they had run away from. Some became like Hitler's Aryans.
My mind and body are ravaged with unknown feelings that are welling up that are changing me as I try to get through the book "Caste" and witness the film "The Underground Railroad." The people of our nation are carrying the trauma of our horrific history and reliving it over and over. It might have looked a lot more subtle because whites have been so good at subjugation, suppression and lying for hundreds of years about our REAL "whitewashed" history. For those living with that ever-present knee on their necks, they know our real history—which has never ended for people of color. White man's inhumanity towards humanity. We need to keep lifting the veil and be brave. These stories must be told and white people are the ones who need to listen. And when I feel sorry for myself for not living in a perfect Golden Rule world, hah! Female, born with Cherokee blood and cheekbones, I was also born with Euro ancestors skin and eyes. Luck of the draw in this white supreme world, even if my femaleness made me have to work a lot harder and be vigilant and more careful than my brothers.
"Historian Howard Zinn critically analyses the conception that World War II was really a "people's war" against fascism, as opposed to yet another inter-imperialist conflict with nothing to offer working people. ... It was a war against an enemy of unspeakable evil. However, ... Zinn argues that the United States only became openly anti-Nazism "when Japan and Germany threatened U.S. world interests." The United States entered the war after Japan attacked a naval base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, in 1941." That is our real history about our white, capitalist leaders.
But our people, our warriors were the ones fighting for decency and humanity and against fascism. A democracy must measure it's leadership by it's foundations...and if they do not represent our integrity to our principles. They must be fired. The majority of our people are principled. Today, those people, We The People, must make immediate arrangements to keep all of us safe from tyrants and dictators.
So, Who are we, America? Is this dangerous abyss we find our country and selves in about money, power, continual hierarchies or is it about We, the People, All of Us, this time? No room for the antiquated, white, patriarchal fallacies that they enshrouded our country in. This is now the moment for what we DO in This Great Experiment. It is really the true moment of our REAL history. The steps we take right now will show ourselves and the world, who we really are. It is actually a very awesome privilege we are being called for, that those who fought and died for our principles live through our generations alive today. Dang, this feels like Devotion. Since that word has been "supremely" tarnished, I would use the word INTEGRITY. Perhaps we are INTEGRITISTS? (I just looked that up to see if it is a real word-- it is in the Urban Dictionary! It fits how I feel today, and after seeing my thoughts here, I feel very differently about what we are participating in right now. I do not feel unhinged. I feel FOCUSED.
I am so proud of you, Penelope. Your words inspire me. I, too, though often scoffed at as a Pollyanna, feel like a warrior and lay in wait in the brush with a keen eye and heart. As I am confident in the timing of an offensive surge to reclaim the Republic, I bless the journalists whose pens are loading our weapons of peace.
Love that, Christine! I was not sure where the hell I was going this morning. When I write my thoughts out, things often crystalize. The character, Cora, despite all her struggles, offers me strength (through tears). This film is agonizingly slow and does not skip over individual and collective pain. Viscerally changing me into deeper levels of what MUST NOT BE REPEATED in OUR COUNTRY, EVER again. I am trying to be patient with Justice. Am glad others warriors are lying in wait with me! Then I just scanned what Fern wrote below...those words all describe the depth of our need to apologize and plan to make reparations to my/our Native Peoples and African American peoples for such atrocities by our past and present white supremacists who think they are the chosen ones. But it is the responsibility of white people to learn what we were not taught about our country's history in order to not repeat it.
You know Penelope. I was in a convo with some people about white privilege. One white person talked about not seeing color. One white person talked about being uncomfortable referring to someone as African American because it sounded racist. I had to sigh. I finally said I think white people need to just quit talking and start listening. Most talking that is done just digs the hole deeper. The fear of reparations, blame, guilt clouds so many convos with excuses. I’ve bought so many copies of Caste by Isabel Wilkerson and gifted to friends. I still recommend to all whether you read the entire book or not or just a synopsis or review, please read, if you dare, the story of the encounter Wilkerson has with a Nigerian born playwright. Pgs 52-53.
I was so startled, I could not continue reading for several days.
Sometimes the simplest ideas are so dang profound, it renders reality as a stage.
My daughter, who is about to turn 28, has been so surprised, sometimes even indignant, about people always identifying others as Black, gay/straight/ Asian…. and so forth?!
She’s grown up in a world of ‘people’ who are either people who she thinks are ‘ok…to those who are not’… there are many variables, but essentially she sees people as givers, vs takers, and people who are b.s. and those who are genuine… I hate to oversimplify this… but she has been blessed with an incredible capability to reach people!
We have always shared our ‘gut feelings about those around us, and I am constantly grateful that in this we are simpatico!
My 20-something sons are the same way. With feminism also. They have integrated it into the operating assumptions, the givens of their ways of being. Hey, integrated integrity, they are Penelope's integritists! And yes, we get credit for having helped to shape them!
Yes, I have talked about this with a friend and how the stories are so overwhelming that they have to be taken in small doses sometimes. I am fairly tough and watch a lot of documentaries and films on the Holocaust and I thought I knew Black History. Knowing and feeling are very different things. My friend who is a few episodes ahead of me in The Underground Railroad, told me that my visceral experience in the first of the film is a torrent of violence against black people and if I can just stay with it, it will not be so violent, but what it teaches me will stick to my ribs forever. We do need to stop talking and start listening and witnessing the pain. It is our duty if we truly want to bring people of color into equality. We need to know their stories, their feelings and stop their persecution across the board. We need to Stand by Them and not be complicit. The only people who do not see color must be blind people. We have never walked this path, but I am sure we can do it if we are respectful, agree that we know nothing, be empty, listen hold hands and walk together. White folk might need to be carefully taught.
"Most talking that is done just digs the hole deeper."
Were truer words ever written or spoke?
Thank you for the timely reminder. These days, I'm all about listening and learning, and taking a page from my youth: Question everything. There has been too much willful blindness, and for far too long.
Powerful writing, powerful thoughts. Historical trauma coming through generations into being re-enacted in different expressions. For all the historians here - please inform us the number of times when criminal behavior by people in the top most positions of leadership in this country has ever been fully adjudicated and the criminals sent to prison? On another note: we will see Biden's stripes revealed in how he deals with such fundamental cancer. Will his hail-fellow-back-slapping- bent toward "bipartisanship" -when the Republicans since Reagan have a well documented trail of absolutist partisanship long epitomized in the figure of McConnell- soften all meaningful adjudication? Will we see again American leadership absolutely incapable of making ones of their own face the magnitude of their own criminality? Non-pardonable crimes with extended meditative times behind bars in real, not executive, prison? As if such rot - like the probability of the NY judge about to free the Sackler family from facing the piper for the evils they've done and continue to do - won't further decay the democracy.
Good catch, Selina. Murder one and it's murder. Murder several and it's mass or serial killing. Murder a million and one is a statesman, even a founding father.
The genocide perpetrated by the European settlers in North America killed untold millions of indigenous people. Nobody knows how many, but knowledgeable estimates range from 10 million to 50 million, mostly between 1750 and 1890. White Americans were less organized perps than the Nazis were, but no less brutal and more “successful.” Dunbar-Ortiz’s History of the United States documents the scope and brutality of the American genocide.
Well said, Penelope. I greatly admired Howard Zinn; we met a couple of times and he was always genial and engaging. But I think he was somewhat off the mark concerning our anti-fascist war. A convincing alternate view comes from Ronald Takaki, who died too soon at 70. In Double Victory: A Multicultural History of America in WW2, the double victory was over foreign AND domestic enemies: Jim Crow, Asian hate, zoot suit rioters, anti-semites. Like others, American Indians also used the DV phrase at that time. We are fortunate that a great singer, a great American 1/4 Cherokee himself, recorded a great song about that struggle.
TPJ and Penelope, I do not know why TPJ did not elaborate on his differences with Howard Zinn about the USA finally entering into WW ll. I do not have an argument to make but thought it might be useful to excerpt some of Zinn's argument:
'For the United States to step forward as a defender of helpless countries matched its image in American high school history textbooks, but not its record in world affairs. It had opposed the Haitian revolution for independence from France at the start of the nineteenth century. It had instigated a war with Mexico and taken half of that country. It bad pretended to help Cuba win freedom from Spain, and then planted itself in Cuba with a military base, investments, and rights of intervention. It had seized Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Guam, and fought a brutal war to subjugate the Filipinos. It had "opened" Japan to its trade with gunboats and threats. It had declared an Open Door Policy in China as a means of assuring that the United States would have opportunities equal to other imperial powers in exploiting China. It had sent troops to Peking with other nations, to assert Western supremacy in China, and kept them there for over thirty years.'
'While demanding an Open Door in China, it had insisted (with the Monroe Doctrine and many military interventions) on a Closed Door in Latin America-that is, closed to everyone but the United States. It had engineered a revolution against Colombia and created the "independent" state of Panama in order to build and control the Canal. It sent five thousand marines to Nicaragua in 1926 to counter a revolution, and kept a force there for seven years. It intervened in the Dominican Republic for the fourth time in 1916 and kept troops there for eight years. It intervened for the second time in Haiti in 1915 and kept troops there for nineteen years. Between 1900 and 1933, the United States intervened in Cuba four times, in Nicaragua twice, in Panama six times, in Guatemala once, in Honduras seven times. By 1924 the finances of half of the twenty Latin American states were being directed to some extent by the United States. By 1935, over half of U.S. steel and cotton exports were being sold in Latin America.'
'Just before World War I ended, in 1918, an American force of seven thousand landed at Vladivostok as part of an Allied intervention in Russia, and remained until early 1920. Five thousand more troops were landed at Archangel, another Russian port, also as part of an Allied expeditionary force, and stayed for almost a year. The State Department told Congress: "All these operations were to offset effects of the Bolshevik revolution in Russia."
'In short, if the entrance of the United States into World War II was (as so many Americans believed at the time, observing the Nazi invasions) to defend the principle of nonintervention in the affairs of other countries, the nation's record cast doubt on its ability to uphold that principle'.
'What seemed clear at the time was that the United States was a democracy with certain liberties, while Germany was a dictatorship persecuting its Jewish minority, imprisoning dissidents, whatever their religion, while proclaiming the supremacy of the Nordic "race." However, blacks, looking at anti-Semitism in Germany, might not see their own situation in the U.S. as much different. And the United States had done little about Hitler's policies of persecution. Indeed, it had joined England and France in appeasing Hitler throughout the thirties. Roosevelt and his Secretary of State, Cordell Hull, were hesitant to criticize publicly Hitler's anti-Semitic policies; when a resolution was introduced in the Senate in January 1934 asking the Senate and the President to express "surprise and pain" at what the Germans were doing to the Jews, and to ask restoration of Jewish rights, the State Department "caused this resolution to be buried in committee," according to Arnold Offner (American Appeasement)'.
'When Mussolini's Italy invaded Ethiopia in 1935, the U.S. declared an embargo on munitions but let American businesses send oil to Italy in huge quantities, which was essential to Italy's carrying on the war. When a Fascist rebellion took place in Spain in 1936 against the elected socialist-liberal government, the Roosevelt administration sponsored a neutrality act that had the effect of shutting off help to the Spanish government while Hitler and Mussolini gave critical aid to Franco. Offner says:
... the United States went beyond even the legal requirements of its neutrality legislation. Had aid been forthcoming from the United States and from England and France, considering that Hitler's position on aid to France was not firm at least until November 1936, the Spanish Republicans could well have triumphed. Instead, Germany gained every advantage from the Spanish civil war.
Was this simply poor judgment, an unfortunate error? Or was it the logical policy of a government whose main interest was not stopping Fascism but advancing the imperial interests of the United States? For those interests, in the thirties, an anti-Soviet policy seemed best. Later, when Japan and Germany threatened U.S. world interests, a pro-Soviet, anti-Nazi policy became preferable. Roosevelt was as much concerned to end the oppression of Jews as Lincoln was to end slavery during the Civil War; their priority in policy (whatever their personal compassion for victims of persecution) was not minority rights, but national power.'
'It was not Hitler's attacks on the Jews that brought the United States into World War II, any more than the enslavement of 4 million blacks brought Civil War in 1861. Italy's attack on Ethiopia, Hitler's invasion of Austria, his takeover of Czechoslovakia, his attack on Poland-none of those events caused the United States to enter the war, although Roosevelt did begin to give important aid to England. What brought the United States fully into the war was the Japanese attack on the American naval base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, on December 7, 1941. Surely it was not the humane concern for Japan's bombing of civilians that led to Roosevelt's outraged call for war-Japan's attack on China in 1937, her bombing of civilians at Nan king, had not provoked the United States to war. It was the Japanese attack on a link in the American Pacific Empire that did it.' (Howard ZinnUSAGermanyJapanfascismUS interventionwarWorld War II)
Differences about our country's motives for entering the war may continue, however, there appears to be no doubt about how crucial it was to the defeat of Nazi Germany.
This is all a very important compilation of actual American history vs. the Patriotic American History taught most of us. I'd like to expand on Zinn's comment about subjugation of the Philippines. At the outset of the Spanish American War, which included the goal of ejecting Spain from the Philippines as well as from Cuba, the U.S. promised to support their independence. A revolution against Spain had begun in the Philippines in 1896; in 1898, revolutionary leaders had declared the Philippines independent of Spain. At the conclusion of the Spanish-American War, the U.S. reneged on that promise, refused to acknowledge the Republic of the Philippines, and ended up with a new war in the Philippines as Filipinos fought to gain their full independence. Full independence was finally achieved in 1948.
I learned this while researching to understand a group of old photographs my cousin had which had just enough clues noted on the back of some to point me to the Philippines and 1900. Several of the photos are of the hanging of 2 Filipino brothers who had led the 'insurgency' against continued American occupation & governance. Also seen in the photos, and confirmed by the author of a 2-volume history of the Philippines, the U.S. Army occupying troops were all black Americans. It's not a pretty story.
For anyone interested in learning more about it, my source is "The Americans in the Philippines", vol. II by James A. Le Roy.
Thank you, Judith. This is exactly the kind of information and source material that I particularly appreciate. Pictures are treasures. Seeing the brothers hanged -- the source for that and photographer are additional points of interest. All Black American soldiers occupying the Philippines is a fact that I must look into. As I wrote that my mind filled the countless promises that I've made to myself... and what did those soldiers come home to?
What I meant was how Black soldiers, when returning from war, who fought valiantly, were again reduced to the insignificant (at best) status they had before they risked their lives for all of us...
I went to check it out, but I am frustrated that there isn’t a recorded version. I’m on the ‘go’ continually, and my husband is working from home 3 days a week so I have headphones on and listen to my books while I’m home or in the car. I want to know more.. so I probably will pursue it when the weather forces me inside. Ever since I started following Dr. R, pretty close to the beginning, my education about our country began in earnest. I have had my eyes open to so much, and it’s rocked me to my core! And what I wouldn’t give to ask my parents and their generation (‘the greatest’!) a thousand questions!
I just celebrated my 70th birthday (or as I prefer to say…my 60-10th) and I feel like I have so much to learn/unlearn about all I thought and it’s overwhelming! But I will keep working at it!
Thanks to all of you (especially Dr. R) for sharing your knowledge,experience, and understanding of the world I thought I knew!
This is a perfect example of the millions of worthwhile books published pre-digital age which will never be digitized or recorded for audio. Those who argue that the internet makes libraries unnecessary are those who seldom read beyond popular fiction or nonfiction.
Published 1970. 2 volumes. Pretty dense detail, useful footnotes. I focused only on the period of the "Philippine Insurrection" (1900-1901) because of the photos but I expect the entire text is like what I read. The info about hanging the two brothers, leaders of the guerillas, was in a footnote, pp.211-212.
Thanks for this excerpt, Fern. Yes, this answered my quizzical puzzle pieces after reading Zinn's book that just did not match up to our very belated response to that war. I dared to ask a similar question to my octogenarian, adopted Swiss grandparents 35 years ago— why did Switzerland not join in the fight against Hitler during the war? I loved them, but their answers were incredibly limp and they appeared to want to avoid discussion. I just wanted to hear their perspectives, which must be very complicated for that little country to be surrounded by the German occupation in Europe. But why, I wondered, was the World Jewish Congress suing Swiss banks...I just wondered about that....
Even with Pearl Harbour, there was a significant arguement at the time about limiting the war to the Pacific. It's always interesting to compare professed war aims with the final outcome. Post 1918 American companies had successfully ousted their UK rivals from all of their investments in Argentina. Post- 1945 gave "carte blanche" to American Corporations under the hegemony of the US military umbrella....re-arming the world and feeding growth at home. They also maintained control over Uk's gold reserves and the horrendously overvalued exchange rate of the Pound to the dollar until lend-lease debts were truly paid for....till end of 1950s....ruining any chance oif economic recovery.
This, and previous posts, are the kinds of history of this country that have made me a non-patriot. My first loyalty has always been to the planet and its natural wonders and creatures, then humanity, and I'm not sure where America comes into it - except that I was born here, I live here, I vote here, and I do my best to do things that encourage this country to progress toward achieving its promise. But I can't salute the flag, I don't put my hand over my heart during the national anthem, I won't engage in jingoistic sentimentality that proclaims this to be the greatest country in the world. I don't think any country can legitimately lay claim to that title. However, I believe that it is our responsibility as citizens of this particular country to work to make it a good place for those who live here and to cooperate with other countries that seek the best for their own citizens.
And, Stuart, do I remember this correctly? I believe my husband told me that after WWII ended, the Brits had to destroy a lot of US military equipment as part of the deal of helping out. I recall things like like perfectly good Jeeps had to be dumped into the ocean? It sounded crazy to me and still does to me now for so several reasons. Interestingly, today, my youngest grandson in his mid twenties has been apprenticed to a man who restores and completely re-builds WWII American jeeps for re-sale. Guess they were not ALL dumped in the ocean! They are running low on Jeeps and parts now. I told my grandson that It would be interesting to see what is stored under tattered tarps in lovely old barns out around that southern countryside! I would imagine France must have had the same deal?
France was more than somewhat disorganized at the time in every domaine...except the Black Market wher most of the American equipment ended up...and many such jeeps are still running around in Provence...très chic!
Yes. In the 30’s leading capitalists feared communism spreading to the US more than they wanted to be the protector of human rights! Thus, wait and see who prevails regarding Russia vs Germany!
Thanks-- TPJ, I will love to check this out! It always really bothered me how long it took for the USA to join in that world war, though. Zinn's accounts answered that for me, though it has been many years since I read The People's History. Being married to a Brit for a long time who grew up during WWII, I have been astonished at some of the USA's actions were prior to and following the war. In the least, I would say we have room for improvement.
A desperate fraction of us fear; rage; strangle; scheme; cheat; shoot; stifle; shout; squirm; choke,; threaten; oppress... Many, many more of us conglomerations; mixtures; hybrids; amalgams; shades of white/yellow/olive/tan/red/brown/black sing together.
*I had originally used the word "Patriotism" where I have Devotion above. Patriotism is a tarnished word for me, so I played with Devotion and then hit on Integrity. I should have gone back and edited that part!! I am all for Devotion and Integrity!
Yes, there are many other strategems that we can name as well, including the Trail of Tears, Japanese internment camps, etc. But the name "Auschwitz" does not belong to us in the same way that it permeates our Jewish kin and shouldn't be co-opted by us for other mass murders and genocides.
I shouldn't have brought up that quote, but it was only meant to reiterate that we need to be vigilant and wary of current movements that continue to back the despot.
Rowshan, Arendt's quote should remind every one of us that mass horror is just one step away. There is no other event in modern history that has the scope of the Holocaust or a place called Auschwitz that clearly define the atrocity neighbor can inflict against neighbor.
Daria, The lesson for all of us is to recognize the destruction and slaughter of human beings on a mass scale, includes examples before and after The Holocaust (Shoah). More than eight million indigenous people died, primarily through the spread of Afro-Eurasian diseases., in events described as the first large-scale act of genocide of the modern era. The Cambodian genocide, systematic persecution and killing of Cambodians by the Khmer Rouge under the leadership of Communist Party general secretary Pol Pot, resulted in the deaths of 1.5 to 2 million and sadly, there are other such tragic examples..
I suggest you peruse the film "The Act of Killing" before making such statements. Just because the 1965-66 genocide in Indonesia did not include White Folks, doesn't make it any less terrible.
The key word in my comment was "scope", based on the compressed number of years and the number of lives claimed by genocide during WWII. I evidently did not make myself clear. I do understand there have been outrageous atrocities around the world, before and after that time. You seem to believe I lack awareness of those many atrocities and ascribe racism as a reason. That is insulting.
Daria, perhaps Stephen meant no insult and was trying to contribute more info. Those of us who’ve been on this feed for awhile know your scope of knowledge, others may not. I also found myself thinking about other global examples of genocide and injustice that were based on tribe, nation and religion rather than race. Our human history is very dark.
Yes Daria, I meant no insult. When I pushed 'send' I thought oooh, that came out not quite like I intended it...
All respect for you and your contributions here. Yes, I am trying to widen the scope. Having spent time in Indonesia and spoken with people who have first hand accounts, I have to do what I can to widen all of our 'scope'.
And the denial while it was happening, and even afterwards. Although there is a national historical guilt professed by many in Germany today, I thought. Not all.
As Penelope Simpson Adams points out below, our "Auschwitz" has not been concentrated in time and space as were the Nazis' mulitple sites. Ours has been strung out across the centuries and throughout the states and territories, and has not yet been either ended or universally recognized.
And I beg to differ. I am sorry to bring this up again. We have a bloody, dark history of crimes against humanity, not unlike the atrocities and experiments of an Auschwitz.
Our native peoples were lied to and decimated in order to take this land, our participation in the colonial enslavement of Africans was to build and enrich white supremacists to create a powerful elite, just like what they had run away from. Some became like Hitler's Aryans.
My mind and body are ravaged with unknown feelings that are welling up that are changing me as I try to get through the book "Caste" and witness the film "The Underground Railroad." The people of our nation are carrying the trauma of our horrific history and reliving it over and over. It might have looked a lot more subtle because whites have been so good at subjugation, suppression and lying for hundreds of years about our REAL "whitewashed" history. For those living with that ever-present knee on their necks, they know our real history—which has never ended for people of color. White man's inhumanity towards humanity. We need to keep lifting the veil and be brave. These stories must be told and white people are the ones who need to listen. And when I feel sorry for myself for not living in a perfect Golden Rule world, hah! Female, born with Cherokee blood and cheekbones, I was also born with Euro ancestors skin and eyes. Luck of the draw in this white supreme world, even if my femaleness made me have to work a lot harder and be vigilant and more careful than my brothers.
"Historian Howard Zinn critically analyses the conception that World War II was really a "people's war" against fascism, as opposed to yet another inter-imperialist conflict with nothing to offer working people. ... It was a war against an enemy of unspeakable evil. However, ... Zinn argues that the United States only became openly anti-Nazism "when Japan and Germany threatened U.S. world interests." The United States entered the war after Japan attacked a naval base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, in 1941." That is our real history about our white, capitalist leaders.
But our people, our warriors were the ones fighting for decency and humanity and against fascism. A democracy must measure it's leadership by it's foundations...and if they do not represent our integrity to our principles. They must be fired. The majority of our people are principled. Today, those people, We The People, must make immediate arrangements to keep all of us safe from tyrants and dictators.
So, Who are we, America? Is this dangerous abyss we find our country and selves in about money, power, continual hierarchies or is it about We, the People, All of Us, this time? No room for the antiquated, white, patriarchal fallacies that they enshrouded our country in. This is now the moment for what we DO in This Great Experiment. It is really the true moment of our REAL history. The steps we take right now will show ourselves and the world, who we really are. It is actually a very awesome privilege we are being called for, that those who fought and died for our principles live through our generations alive today. Dang, this feels like Devotion. Since that word has been "supremely" tarnished, I would use the word INTEGRITY. Perhaps we are INTEGRITISTS? (I just looked that up to see if it is a real word-- it is in the Urban Dictionary! It fits how I feel today, and after seeing my thoughts here, I feel very differently about what we are participating in right now. I do not feel unhinged. I feel FOCUSED.
I am so proud of you, Penelope. Your words inspire me. I, too, though often scoffed at as a Pollyanna, feel like a warrior and lay in wait in the brush with a keen eye and heart. As I am confident in the timing of an offensive surge to reclaim the Republic, I bless the journalists whose pens are loading our weapons of peace.
Love that, Christine! I was not sure where the hell I was going this morning. When I write my thoughts out, things often crystalize. The character, Cora, despite all her struggles, offers me strength (through tears). This film is agonizingly slow and does not skip over individual and collective pain. Viscerally changing me into deeper levels of what MUST NOT BE REPEATED in OUR COUNTRY, EVER again. I am trying to be patient with Justice. Am glad others warriors are lying in wait with me! Then I just scanned what Fern wrote below...those words all describe the depth of our need to apologize and plan to make reparations to my/our Native Peoples and African American peoples for such atrocities by our past and present white supremacists who think they are the chosen ones. But it is the responsibility of white people to learn what we were not taught about our country's history in order to not repeat it.
You know Penelope. I was in a convo with some people about white privilege. One white person talked about not seeing color. One white person talked about being uncomfortable referring to someone as African American because it sounded racist. I had to sigh. I finally said I think white people need to just quit talking and start listening. Most talking that is done just digs the hole deeper. The fear of reparations, blame, guilt clouds so many convos with excuses. I’ve bought so many copies of Caste by Isabel Wilkerson and gifted to friends. I still recommend to all whether you read the entire book or not or just a synopsis or review, please read, if you dare, the story of the encounter Wilkerson has with a Nigerian born playwright. Pgs 52-53.
I was so startled, I could not continue reading for several days.
Sometimes the simplest ideas are so dang profound, it renders reality as a stage.
You know what is so ‘funny’ about this?
My daughter, who is about to turn 28, has been so surprised, sometimes even indignant, about people always identifying others as Black, gay/straight/ Asian…. and so forth?!
She’s grown up in a world of ‘people’ who are either people who she thinks are ‘ok…to those who are not’… there are many variables, but essentially she sees people as givers, vs takers, and people who are b.s. and those who are genuine… I hate to oversimplify this… but she has been blessed with an incredible capability to reach people!
We have always shared our ‘gut feelings about those around us, and I am constantly grateful that in this we are simpatico!
My children the same way. Appreciate your comment.
Very beautiful, Cynthia. I think your daughter must have been raised by wonderful parents!
Cheers to Ellie, too!
My 20-something sons are the same way. With feminism also. They have integrated it into the operating assumptions, the givens of their ways of being. Hey, integrated integrity, they are Penelope's integritists! And yes, we get credit for having helped to shape them!
Yes, I have talked about this with a friend and how the stories are so overwhelming that they have to be taken in small doses sometimes. I am fairly tough and watch a lot of documentaries and films on the Holocaust and I thought I knew Black History. Knowing and feeling are very different things. My friend who is a few episodes ahead of me in The Underground Railroad, told me that my visceral experience in the first of the film is a torrent of violence against black people and if I can just stay with it, it will not be so violent, but what it teaches me will stick to my ribs forever. We do need to stop talking and start listening and witnessing the pain. It is our duty if we truly want to bring people of color into equality. We need to know their stories, their feelings and stop their persecution across the board. We need to Stand by Them and not be complicit. The only people who do not see color must be blind people. We have never walked this path, but I am sure we can do it if we are respectful, agree that we know nothing, be empty, listen hold hands and walk together. White folk might need to be carefully taught.
Preach, sister.
"Most talking that is done just digs the hole deeper."
Were truer words ever written or spoke?
Thank you for the timely reminder. These days, I'm all about listening and learning, and taking a page from my youth: Question everything. There has been too much willful blindness, and for far too long.
Powerful writing, powerful thoughts. Historical trauma coming through generations into being re-enacted in different expressions. For all the historians here - please inform us the number of times when criminal behavior by people in the top most positions of leadership in this country has ever been fully adjudicated and the criminals sent to prison? On another note: we will see Biden's stripes revealed in how he deals with such fundamental cancer. Will his hail-fellow-back-slapping- bent toward "bipartisanship" -when the Republicans since Reagan have a well documented trail of absolutist partisanship long epitomized in the figure of McConnell- soften all meaningful adjudication? Will we see again American leadership absolutely incapable of making ones of their own face the magnitude of their own criminality? Non-pardonable crimes with extended meditative times behind bars in real, not executive, prison? As if such rot - like the probability of the NY judge about to free the Sackler family from facing the piper for the evils they've done and continue to do - won't further decay the democracy.
Good catch, Selina. Murder one and it's murder. Murder several and it's mass or serial killing. Murder a million and one is a statesman, even a founding father.
How sad
The genocide perpetrated by the European settlers in North America killed untold millions of indigenous people. Nobody knows how many, but knowledgeable estimates range from 10 million to 50 million, mostly between 1750 and 1890. White Americans were less organized perps than the Nazis were, but no less brutal and more “successful.” Dunbar-Ortiz’s History of the United States documents the scope and brutality of the American genocide.
Absolutely, Rex. Thanks for the figures and history book recommendation.
Well said, Penelope. I greatly admired Howard Zinn; we met a couple of times and he was always genial and engaging. But I think he was somewhat off the mark concerning our anti-fascist war. A convincing alternate view comes from Ronald Takaki, who died too soon at 70. In Double Victory: A Multicultural History of America in WW2, the double victory was over foreign AND domestic enemies: Jim Crow, Asian hate, zoot suit rioters, anti-semites. Like others, American Indians also used the DV phrase at that time. We are fortunate that a great singer, a great American 1/4 Cherokee himself, recorded a great song about that struggle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEwSwQtSmDQ
TPJ and Penelope, I do not know why TPJ did not elaborate on his differences with Howard Zinn about the USA finally entering into WW ll. I do not have an argument to make but thought it might be useful to excerpt some of Zinn's argument:
'For the United States to step forward as a defender of helpless countries matched its image in American high school history textbooks, but not its record in world affairs. It had opposed the Haitian revolution for independence from France at the start of the nineteenth century. It had instigated a war with Mexico and taken half of that country. It bad pretended to help Cuba win freedom from Spain, and then planted itself in Cuba with a military base, investments, and rights of intervention. It had seized Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Guam, and fought a brutal war to subjugate the Filipinos. It had "opened" Japan to its trade with gunboats and threats. It had declared an Open Door Policy in China as a means of assuring that the United States would have opportunities equal to other imperial powers in exploiting China. It had sent troops to Peking with other nations, to assert Western supremacy in China, and kept them there for over thirty years.'
'While demanding an Open Door in China, it had insisted (with the Monroe Doctrine and many military interventions) on a Closed Door in Latin America-that is, closed to everyone but the United States. It had engineered a revolution against Colombia and created the "independent" state of Panama in order to build and control the Canal. It sent five thousand marines to Nicaragua in 1926 to counter a revolution, and kept a force there for seven years. It intervened in the Dominican Republic for the fourth time in 1916 and kept troops there for eight years. It intervened for the second time in Haiti in 1915 and kept troops there for nineteen years. Between 1900 and 1933, the United States intervened in Cuba four times, in Nicaragua twice, in Panama six times, in Guatemala once, in Honduras seven times. By 1924 the finances of half of the twenty Latin American states were being directed to some extent by the United States. By 1935, over half of U.S. steel and cotton exports were being sold in Latin America.'
'Just before World War I ended, in 1918, an American force of seven thousand landed at Vladivostok as part of an Allied intervention in Russia, and remained until early 1920. Five thousand more troops were landed at Archangel, another Russian port, also as part of an Allied expeditionary force, and stayed for almost a year. The State Department told Congress: "All these operations were to offset effects of the Bolshevik revolution in Russia."
'In short, if the entrance of the United States into World War II was (as so many Americans believed at the time, observing the Nazi invasions) to defend the principle of nonintervention in the affairs of other countries, the nation's record cast doubt on its ability to uphold that principle'.
'What seemed clear at the time was that the United States was a democracy with certain liberties, while Germany was a dictatorship persecuting its Jewish minority, imprisoning dissidents, whatever their religion, while proclaiming the supremacy of the Nordic "race." However, blacks, looking at anti-Semitism in Germany, might not see their own situation in the U.S. as much different. And the United States had done little about Hitler's policies of persecution. Indeed, it had joined England and France in appeasing Hitler throughout the thirties. Roosevelt and his Secretary of State, Cordell Hull, were hesitant to criticize publicly Hitler's anti-Semitic policies; when a resolution was introduced in the Senate in January 1934 asking the Senate and the President to express "surprise and pain" at what the Germans were doing to the Jews, and to ask restoration of Jewish rights, the State Department "caused this resolution to be buried in committee," according to Arnold Offner (American Appeasement)'.
'When Mussolini's Italy invaded Ethiopia in 1935, the U.S. declared an embargo on munitions but let American businesses send oil to Italy in huge quantities, which was essential to Italy's carrying on the war. When a Fascist rebellion took place in Spain in 1936 against the elected socialist-liberal government, the Roosevelt administration sponsored a neutrality act that had the effect of shutting off help to the Spanish government while Hitler and Mussolini gave critical aid to Franco. Offner says:
... the United States went beyond even the legal requirements of its neutrality legislation. Had aid been forthcoming from the United States and from England and France, considering that Hitler's position on aid to France was not firm at least until November 1936, the Spanish Republicans could well have triumphed. Instead, Germany gained every advantage from the Spanish civil war.
Was this simply poor judgment, an unfortunate error? Or was it the logical policy of a government whose main interest was not stopping Fascism but advancing the imperial interests of the United States? For those interests, in the thirties, an anti-Soviet policy seemed best. Later, when Japan and Germany threatened U.S. world interests, a pro-Soviet, anti-Nazi policy became preferable. Roosevelt was as much concerned to end the oppression of Jews as Lincoln was to end slavery during the Civil War; their priority in policy (whatever their personal compassion for victims of persecution) was not minority rights, but national power.'
'It was not Hitler's attacks on the Jews that brought the United States into World War II, any more than the enslavement of 4 million blacks brought Civil War in 1861. Italy's attack on Ethiopia, Hitler's invasion of Austria, his takeover of Czechoslovakia, his attack on Poland-none of those events caused the United States to enter the war, although Roosevelt did begin to give important aid to England. What brought the United States fully into the war was the Japanese attack on the American naval base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, on December 7, 1941. Surely it was not the humane concern for Japan's bombing of civilians that led to Roosevelt's outraged call for war-Japan's attack on China in 1937, her bombing of civilians at Nan king, had not provoked the United States to war. It was the Japanese attack on a link in the American Pacific Empire that did it.' (Howard ZinnUSAGermanyJapanfascismUS interventionwarWorld War II)
Differences about our country's motives for entering the war may continue, however, there appears to be no doubt about how crucial it was to the defeat of Nazi Germany.
This is all a very important compilation of actual American history vs. the Patriotic American History taught most of us. I'd like to expand on Zinn's comment about subjugation of the Philippines. At the outset of the Spanish American War, which included the goal of ejecting Spain from the Philippines as well as from Cuba, the U.S. promised to support their independence. A revolution against Spain had begun in the Philippines in 1896; in 1898, revolutionary leaders had declared the Philippines independent of Spain. At the conclusion of the Spanish-American War, the U.S. reneged on that promise, refused to acknowledge the Republic of the Philippines, and ended up with a new war in the Philippines as Filipinos fought to gain their full independence. Full independence was finally achieved in 1948.
I learned this while researching to understand a group of old photographs my cousin had which had just enough clues noted on the back of some to point me to the Philippines and 1900. Several of the photos are of the hanging of 2 Filipino brothers who had led the 'insurgency' against continued American occupation & governance. Also seen in the photos, and confirmed by the author of a 2-volume history of the Philippines, the U.S. Army occupying troops were all black Americans. It's not a pretty story.
For anyone interested in learning more about it, my source is "The Americans in the Philippines", vol. II by James A. Le Roy.
Thank you, Judith. This is exactly the kind of information and source material that I particularly appreciate. Pictures are treasures. Seeing the brothers hanged -- the source for that and photographer are additional points of interest. All Black American soldiers occupying the Philippines is a fact that I must look into. As I wrote that my mind filled the countless promises that I've made to myself... and what did those soldiers come home to?
I’m sure it was not a heroes welcome…. I am continually ashamed of what how ‘brethren’ have treated our ‘brethren’…
This one surprised me and will check it out - when - ?!
Are you responding to me?
Yes, Cynthia to your ' how ‘....brethren’ have treated our ‘brethren’…
What I meant was how Black soldiers, when returning from war, who fought valiantly, were again reduced to the insignificant (at best) status they had before they risked their lives for all of us...
I went to check it out, but I am frustrated that there isn’t a recorded version. I’m on the ‘go’ continually, and my husband is working from home 3 days a week so I have headphones on and listen to my books while I’m home or in the car. I want to know more.. so I probably will pursue it when the weather forces me inside. Ever since I started following Dr. R, pretty close to the beginning, my education about our country began in earnest. I have had my eyes open to so much, and it’s rocked me to my core! And what I wouldn’t give to ask my parents and their generation (‘the greatest’!) a thousand questions!
I just celebrated my 70th birthday (or as I prefer to say…my 60-10th) and I feel like I have so much to learn/unlearn about all I thought and it’s overwhelming! But I will keep working at it!
Thanks to all of you (especially Dr. R) for sharing your knowledge,experience, and understanding of the world I thought I knew!
This is a perfect example of the millions of worthwhile books published pre-digital age which will never be digitized or recorded for audio. Those who argue that the internet makes libraries unnecessary are those who seldom read beyond popular fiction or nonfiction.
😞
I will add the Le Roy book to my list.
Published 1970. 2 volumes. Pretty dense detail, useful footnotes. I focused only on the period of the "Philippine Insurrection" (1900-1901) because of the photos but I expect the entire text is like what I read. The info about hanging the two brothers, leaders of the guerillas, was in a footnote, pp.211-212.
Thanks for this excerpt, Fern. Yes, this answered my quizzical puzzle pieces after reading Zinn's book that just did not match up to our very belated response to that war. I dared to ask a similar question to my octogenarian, adopted Swiss grandparents 35 years ago— why did Switzerland not join in the fight against Hitler during the war? I loved them, but their answers were incredibly limp and they appeared to want to avoid discussion. I just wanted to hear their perspectives, which must be very complicated for that little country to be surrounded by the German occupation in Europe. But why, I wondered, was the World Jewish Congress suing Swiss banks...I just wondered about that....
Questions, curiosity, learning, communicating and participating...crucial aspects of citizenship and the of LFAA. Salud, Penelope.
Salud back, Fern!
Even with Pearl Harbour, there was a significant arguement at the time about limiting the war to the Pacific. It's always interesting to compare professed war aims with the final outcome. Post 1918 American companies had successfully ousted their UK rivals from all of their investments in Argentina. Post- 1945 gave "carte blanche" to American Corporations under the hegemony of the US military umbrella....re-arming the world and feeding growth at home. They also maintained control over Uk's gold reserves and the horrendously overvalued exchange rate of the Pound to the dollar until lend-lease debts were truly paid for....till end of 1950s....ruining any chance oif economic recovery.
Stuart, Penelope, Judith, et al.:
Lanita Grice (WA, the state)just now
This, and previous posts, are the kinds of history of this country that have made me a non-patriot. My first loyalty has always been to the planet and its natural wonders and creatures, then humanity, and I'm not sure where America comes into it - except that I was born here, I live here, I vote here, and I do my best to do things that encourage this country to progress toward achieving its promise. But I can't salute the flag, I don't put my hand over my heart during the national anthem, I won't engage in jingoistic sentimentality that proclaims this to be the greatest country in the world. I don't think any country can legitimately lay claim to that title. However, I believe that it is our responsibility as citizens of this particular country to work to make it a good place for those who live here and to cooperate with other countries that seek the best for their own citizens.
And, Stuart, do I remember this correctly? I believe my husband told me that after WWII ended, the Brits had to destroy a lot of US military equipment as part of the deal of helping out. I recall things like like perfectly good Jeeps had to be dumped into the ocean? It sounded crazy to me and still does to me now for so several reasons. Interestingly, today, my youngest grandson in his mid twenties has been apprenticed to a man who restores and completely re-builds WWII American jeeps for re-sale. Guess they were not ALL dumped in the ocean! They are running low on Jeeps and parts now. I told my grandson that It would be interesting to see what is stored under tattered tarps in lovely old barns out around that southern countryside! I would imagine France must have had the same deal?
France was more than somewhat disorganized at the time in every domaine...except the Black Market wher most of the American equipment ended up...and many such jeeps are still running around in Provence...très chic!
Yes. In the 30’s leading capitalists feared communism spreading to the US more than they wanted to be the protector of human rights! Thus, wait and see who prevails regarding Russia vs Germany!
Thanks-- TPJ, I will love to check this out! It always really bothered me how long it took for the USA to join in that world war, though. Zinn's accounts answered that for me, though it has been many years since I read The People's History. Being married to a Brit for a long time who grew up during WWII, I have been astonished at some of the USA's actions were prior to and following the war. In the least, I would say we have room for improvement.
A desperate fraction of us fear; rage; strangle; scheme; cheat; shoot; stifle; shout; squirm; choke,; threaten; oppress... Many, many more of us conglomerations; mixtures; hybrids; amalgams; shades of white/yellow/olive/tan/red/brown/black sing together.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoMKnzTR0rM
Good for you— I’m more identified with the female caste— always ready to serve.
*I had originally used the word "Patriotism" where I have Devotion above. Patriotism is a tarnished word for me, so I played with Devotion and then hit on Integrity. I should have gone back and edited that part!! I am all for Devotion and Integrity!
Thank you
Yes, there are many other strategems that we can name as well, including the Trail of Tears, Japanese internment camps, etc. But the name "Auschwitz" does not belong to us in the same way that it permeates our Jewish kin and shouldn't be co-opted by us for other mass murders and genocides.
I shouldn't have brought up that quote, but it was only meant to reiterate that we need to be vigilant and wary of current movements that continue to back the despot.
Rowshan, Arendt's quote should remind every one of us that mass horror is just one step away. There is no other event in modern history that has the scope of the Holocaust or a place called Auschwitz that clearly define the atrocity neighbor can inflict against neighbor.
Hear, hear!
Daria, The lesson for all of us is to recognize the destruction and slaughter of human beings on a mass scale, includes examples before and after The Holocaust (Shoah). More than eight million indigenous people died, primarily through the spread of Afro-Eurasian diseases., in events described as the first large-scale act of genocide of the modern era. The Cambodian genocide, systematic persecution and killing of Cambodians by the Khmer Rouge under the leadership of Communist Party general secretary Pol Pot, resulted in the deaths of 1.5 to 2 million and sadly, there are other such tragic examples..
Thank you.
I suggest you peruse the film "The Act of Killing" before making such statements. Just because the 1965-66 genocide in Indonesia did not include White Folks, doesn't make it any less terrible.
Or the horrors of the Pol Pot regime, or the daily life of the inhabitants of North Korea or Burma or Belarus.
The key word in my comment was "scope", based on the compressed number of years and the number of lives claimed by genocide during WWII. I evidently did not make myself clear. I do understand there have been outrageous atrocities around the world, before and after that time. You seem to believe I lack awareness of those many atrocities and ascribe racism as a reason. That is insulting.
Daria, perhaps Stephen meant no insult and was trying to contribute more info. Those of us who’ve been on this feed for awhile know your scope of knowledge, others may not. I also found myself thinking about other global examples of genocide and injustice that were based on tribe, nation and religion rather than race. Our human history is very dark.
Diane, perhaps. You are correct, human history is very dark and is riddled with intolerance and genocide. It's never ending.
Yes Daria, I meant no insult. When I pushed 'send' I thought oooh, that came out not quite like I intended it...
All respect for you and your contributions here. Yes, I am trying to widen the scope. Having spent time in Indonesia and spoken with people who have first hand accounts, I have to do what I can to widen all of our 'scope'.
And the denial while it was happening, and even afterwards. Although there is a national historical guilt professed by many in Germany today, I thought. Not all.
Yes, totally agree. Thanks for pointing that out.
As are the detention camps at the Mexican border.
As are the 600,000 people dead of Covid.
As is the prison system.
As is our caste system.
As Penelope Simpson Adams points out below, our "Auschwitz" has not been concentrated in time and space as were the Nazis' mulitple sites. Ours has been strung out across the centuries and throughout the states and territories, and has not yet been either ended or universally recognized.