It's not the crime, it's the cover-up. And compared to Watergate, from which the saying sprang, the cover-up involving text messages around Jan. 6 makes Nixon and his taping system seem like jaywalking.
Secret Service agents are one thing, but the top officials in DHS? And their excuse is an agency-wide replacement of mobile phones? Whe…
It's not the crime, it's the cover-up. And compared to Watergate, from which the saying sprang, the cover-up involving text messages around Jan. 6 makes Nixon and his taping system seem like jaywalking.
Secret Service agents are one thing, but the top officials in DHS? And their excuse is an agency-wide replacement of mobile phones? When everyone in the federal government knows the law requires preservation of all records? Were they all convinced that Trump would remain in office, despite polls indicating otherwise?
None of this is a coincidence, obviously, or even merely the ineptness that pervaded the Trump Administration. They appear to have destroyed evidence they knew would be critical to investigations of the coup.
Are there enough lawyers in DC to defend yet another likely wave of criminal suspects?
Well, not jaywalking. They too, in their own creepy way, wanted to undo democracy. Technology was at a different stage back then. From all the crime series I have watched, Black List in particular, I am pretty sure the techies in government can track down ANYTHING. Let’s go after these traitors and send them to prison.
To attach on to Michael Bales' question...Are there enough lawyers AND I include prisons in DC for all these traitors to America? We must create a social justice system with specific social fabric reparations that our fascist-motivated government employees, who were willing to destroy our democracy for power and greed, be forced to work in and on. If I were cruel, they should all be in shackles. Enter them into programs to build Habitats for Humanity in America for ALL our People and include immigrants and refugees. Have them clean up all the ghettos in America with their foreign-laundered monies and clean up after disasters. Rehabilitate all the dying malls in America and turn them into apartment complexes with social areas for residents, of all colors and religions. And the Orange Flambé's golf resorts could be turned into parks, and he could ride the lawn mowers and pick up poo in the the doggie park areas. They could only watch educational documentaries of our history and of the J6 Hearings and DOJ Hearings and things that are good or love stories to make them learn to cry. And they should be forced to participate in the postcards to voters programs. And postcards to get rid of your AK machine guns to all their brethren. Have them clean up after massacres and come up with solutions to stop the massacres. They could take down confederate statues and build mosques and temples and work on nature trails and roads (holding signs to "Stop"). I am just getting started. We could employ a LOT of people to oversee their work which should be paid by the prisoner's assets and book sales. No interviews allowed of any of them except on their good social justice work. This would be like a renaissance for dark-souled humans to earn their place back into society, never to hold civil servant jobs again except for laboring for the good of our democracy. And they shall be banned from all cult propaganda programs including fox and Qanon. In fact, ban them from any social media and cell phones since they defiled the use of their phones and media against Truth and Justice. Give them landlines and old dial up phones to speak with their loved ones-- I am not heartless. Earn their rights back by good, hard work. For those who refuse to work in the social fabric rehab programs, send them to Guantanamo. Strip them of their citizenship and let them fish for their meat and provide them with containers, some bags of soil and seeds to grow veggies. I was thinking about that Wall...but I am too tired now. ...I am actually rather serious about a lot of this. Sitting in a cell is not how we should use their time. Make them pay back our society as part of their penances. Things of this sort might curtail others thinking about wanting to go rogue on our democracy. They are called "consequences" and consequences work.
I love your "social fabric rehab" approach to incarceration. The punishment would perfectly fit the crime. ( Nice touch, getting them to watch love stories " to teach them how to cry" !!!)
It seems that this is EXACTLY what happened to the German soldiers of the Third Reich after the war. A huge number were placed in POW camps throughout Europe, and assisted (with hard labor) the reconstruction of the countries they had destroyed. Their leaders were tried, and those who did not kill themselves first, were executed.
Very true, Joseph! We are, hopefully, more civilized. Our current traitors against America are extremely lucky we no longer hang or execute. Their orange flambé leader just stated that he would put people in concentration camps and execute if he wins the emperorship. He has no clue how close he is to being parted with his golden potty in exchange for a little porcelain one in an 8x10.
However, I would like us to have enough love and compassion to bring them into, or back into, some form of humanity by learning how to give of themselves to others with whom they feel superior. To see what that actually feels like to serve, with humility. It is about the process.
And, Joseph, I don't really think having the former guy pick up doggy poo is hard labor, do you? Someone had to clean his mob's feces and urine off the walls and floors of our Capitol. I think it is a fair and equitable consequence for the leader of the filthy mob of "special people." I am sure it is something of which he and his comrades can learn to "Be Best."
I don't personally buy into the "more civilized" trope.
There are, and have always been, and will always be good reasons to execute people.
In a just and functional society, it should be relatively rare.
But societies are neither just, nor terribly functional. Given free rein, governmental powers will be used to execute people for being black, for being a "witch," for being pregnant out-of-wedlock, or for being left-handed. Consequently, much of our legal effort goes into avoiding conviction and especially, execution.
That does not mean it should never be exacted.
Trump is clearly a pathological narcissist, and from everything I've read, or heard from friends in the mental health professions, this is an uncorrectable condition. He is also a criminal narcissist: he has situated himself in positions where committing crimes is more desirable for him than not. There is zero reason to believe that he could be rehabilitated. If allowed to go free, he will do more harm.
His crime would be, in any other society, or any other time in this society, capital.
The only sane, just, and prudent choices are life in prison without parole or pardon, or execution.
I really like this idea, Pensa. It is a delightful companion to your rant yesterday!
I recall from my long ago corrections academy days that the root word of "penitentiary" is "penance" and not "punish". This did, however, send me to the dictionary to be sure that I was using the right word. The two definitions certainly seem to fit with some "modernization" of meanings/institutions:
"penance: noun
1.
voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.
"he had done public penance for those hasty words"
2.
a Christian sacrament in which a member of the Church confesses sins to a priest and is given absolution."
I would love to see this come into play in a modern sense, where both accountability and reparations are part of the recovery process.
Thanks- my companion rant! Clever, Ally. And knowing you have worked in the penal system, I love your etymological additions to these words-- they will need to be very accurate.
It was eye-opening to remember the "Christian" penance and confessions. However, I would never trust them and they should not be given absolution until they have served their social justice time and towed the line. But public confessions of their crimes is a very appealing and healing thought for me, maybe for others?
Perhaps the gallows they were going to hang Mike Pence on could be turned into a public confessional booth on the Capital steps, on the day of their adjudications? If they do not confess- ship them out to Gitmo until they turn around.
Wendy-- I am getting seriouser and seriouser about the orange flambé and how to "tame" him with humility. He hates dogs and animals. He and his propaganda machines shoveled so much poo at us for years that I think they could all qualify to doo some of their penance time as poo catchers. He of course will Be Best. I am sure he could sell his brandname of poo colored hats and ties....and brown shirts for all his besties!
Thanks for expounding upon your seriously funny and clever forms of punishment for the evil ones. You're on a roll. Also, in my early career I was a social worker specializing in treatment of adolescents. Your humor resonates with me, as does the strength of your passion for justice.
The elephant in the room is corruption. Jumbo corruption. And while corruption is an equal opportunity corrupter, it's gone septic with the current "GOP.
The crime was unprecedented, it’s why the cover-up. Wonder how many times such has worked. Bet there are a lot of smirking Bushes (and their devotees) around some where…
Michael As a member of the Nixon White House Enemies List during Watergate, I differ with your ‘it’s not the crime, it’s the cover up.’ This statement was true regarding the stupid attempt to tap DNC offices. The Nixon cover up was shattered by Judge Sirica, the Erwin Senate Committee, and finally, Congress and the Supreme Court.
By contrast, with Trump and his Mafiosos, the BIG LIE, the 1/6 Capitol Building insurrection, and the insidious conspiracy are the CRIME. I agree that, in the subsequent cover up, the Secret Service ‘code of silence’ is of remarkable concern. Can a security service of the United States refuse to provide its internal data regarding one of most extraordinary constitutional breeches in America history?
The Church Committee in the early 1970s removed the secrecy veil from many of CIA’s untoward actions. We need the same to shatter the Secret Service’s ‘code of silence.’ (Newspaper accounts suggest that many Secret Service personnel were pro-Trump.)
I may have not been clear but I was referring to the Secret Service and DHS. Now maybe they committed crimes integral to the coup attempt, but we don't know that yet. It's reasonable to suspect that they were involved in a cover-up of unprecedented scope intended to destroy critical evidence.
It's not the crime, it's the cover-up. And compared to Watergate, from which the saying sprang, the cover-up involving text messages around Jan. 6 makes Nixon and his taping system seem like jaywalking.
Secret Service agents are one thing, but the top officials in DHS? And their excuse is an agency-wide replacement of mobile phones? When everyone in the federal government knows the law requires preservation of all records? Were they all convinced that Trump would remain in office, despite polls indicating otherwise?
None of this is a coincidence, obviously, or even merely the ineptness that pervaded the Trump Administration. They appear to have destroyed evidence they knew would be critical to investigations of the coup.
Are there enough lawyers in DC to defend yet another likely wave of criminal suspects?
Well, not jaywalking. They too, in their own creepy way, wanted to undo democracy. Technology was at a different stage back then. From all the crime series I have watched, Black List in particular, I am pretty sure the techies in government can track down ANYTHING. Let’s go after these traitors and send them to prison.
To attach on to Michael Bales' question...Are there enough lawyers AND I include prisons in DC for all these traitors to America? We must create a social justice system with specific social fabric reparations that our fascist-motivated government employees, who were willing to destroy our democracy for power and greed, be forced to work in and on. If I were cruel, they should all be in shackles. Enter them into programs to build Habitats for Humanity in America for ALL our People and include immigrants and refugees. Have them clean up all the ghettos in America with their foreign-laundered monies and clean up after disasters. Rehabilitate all the dying malls in America and turn them into apartment complexes with social areas for residents, of all colors and religions. And the Orange Flambé's golf resorts could be turned into parks, and he could ride the lawn mowers and pick up poo in the the doggie park areas. They could only watch educational documentaries of our history and of the J6 Hearings and DOJ Hearings and things that are good or love stories to make them learn to cry. And they should be forced to participate in the postcards to voters programs. And postcards to get rid of your AK machine guns to all their brethren. Have them clean up after massacres and come up with solutions to stop the massacres. They could take down confederate statues and build mosques and temples and work on nature trails and roads (holding signs to "Stop"). I am just getting started. We could employ a LOT of people to oversee their work which should be paid by the prisoner's assets and book sales. No interviews allowed of any of them except on their good social justice work. This would be like a renaissance for dark-souled humans to earn their place back into society, never to hold civil servant jobs again except for laboring for the good of our democracy. And they shall be banned from all cult propaganda programs including fox and Qanon. In fact, ban them from any social media and cell phones since they defiled the use of their phones and media against Truth and Justice. Give them landlines and old dial up phones to speak with their loved ones-- I am not heartless. Earn their rights back by good, hard work. For those who refuse to work in the social fabric rehab programs, send them to Guantanamo. Strip them of their citizenship and let them fish for their meat and provide them with containers, some bags of soil and seeds to grow veggies. I was thinking about that Wall...but I am too tired now. ...I am actually rather serious about a lot of this. Sitting in a cell is not how we should use their time. Make them pay back our society as part of their penances. Things of this sort might curtail others thinking about wanting to go rogue on our democracy. They are called "consequences" and consequences work.
I love your "social fabric rehab" approach to incarceration. The punishment would perfectly fit the crime. ( Nice touch, getting them to watch love stories " to teach them how to cry" !!!)
The “Hallmark Hour”. Love it. 😭😂
Agree agree agree, Pensa. Straight from the Peace Room instead of War Room. Sounds like a teacher in a classroom or a mom in the thick of it.
🗽
Guilty of being a former Montessori teacher and a therapist for adolescents. Rethugs need teachable moments immediately.
Proud of you, Pensa. I’ve never felt a moment of guilt being blessed from birth with the art of teaching. It’s in the DNA.
🗽
It seems that this is EXACTLY what happened to the German soldiers of the Third Reich after the war. A huge number were placed in POW camps throughout Europe, and assisted (with hard labor) the reconstruction of the countries they had destroyed. Their leaders were tried, and those who did not kill themselves first, were executed.
Very true, Joseph! We are, hopefully, more civilized. Our current traitors against America are extremely lucky we no longer hang or execute. Their orange flambé leader just stated that he would put people in concentration camps and execute if he wins the emperorship. He has no clue how close he is to being parted with his golden potty in exchange for a little porcelain one in an 8x10.
However, I would like us to have enough love and compassion to bring them into, or back into, some form of humanity by learning how to give of themselves to others with whom they feel superior. To see what that actually feels like to serve, with humility. It is about the process.
And, Joseph, I don't really think having the former guy pick up doggy poo is hard labor, do you? Someone had to clean his mob's feces and urine off the walls and floors of our Capitol. I think it is a fair and equitable consequence for the leader of the filthy mob of "special people." I am sure it is something of which he and his comrades can learn to "Be Best."
I don't personally buy into the "more civilized" trope.
There are, and have always been, and will always be good reasons to execute people.
In a just and functional society, it should be relatively rare.
But societies are neither just, nor terribly functional. Given free rein, governmental powers will be used to execute people for being black, for being a "witch," for being pregnant out-of-wedlock, or for being left-handed. Consequently, much of our legal effort goes into avoiding conviction and especially, execution.
That does not mean it should never be exacted.
Trump is clearly a pathological narcissist, and from everything I've read, or heard from friends in the mental health professions, this is an uncorrectable condition. He is also a criminal narcissist: he has situated himself in positions where committing crimes is more desirable for him than not. There is zero reason to believe that he could be rehabilitated. If allowed to go free, he will do more harm.
His crime would be, in any other society, or any other time in this society, capital.
The only sane, just, and prudent choices are life in prison without parole or pardon, or execution.
Pensa, without attribution (just indicating "a commenter elsewhere"), I shared on Facebook your excellent and hopefully doable suggestions. Thank you.
I really like this idea, Pensa. It is a delightful companion to your rant yesterday!
I recall from my long ago corrections academy days that the root word of "penitentiary" is "penance" and not "punish". This did, however, send me to the dictionary to be sure that I was using the right word. The two definitions certainly seem to fit with some "modernization" of meanings/institutions:
"penance: noun
1.
voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.
"he had done public penance for those hasty words"
2.
a Christian sacrament in which a member of the Church confesses sins to a priest and is given absolution."
I would love to see this come into play in a modern sense, where both accountability and reparations are part of the recovery process.
Thanks- my companion rant! Clever, Ally. And knowing you have worked in the penal system, I love your etymological additions to these words-- they will need to be very accurate.
It was eye-opening to remember the "Christian" penance and confessions. However, I would never trust them and they should not be given absolution until they have served their social justice time and towed the line. But public confessions of their crimes is a very appealing and healing thought for me, maybe for others?
Perhaps the gallows they were going to hang Mike Pence on could be turned into a public confessional booth on the Capital steps, on the day of their adjudications? If they do not confess- ship them out to Gitmo until they turn around.
Excellent ideas Pensa.
Doing penance and earning back their rights through work that helps the country makes so much more sense.
I love this idea!
I tried hearting this post, Pensa. I agree.
Even though you were serious, your humor wasn't lost. Love this concept of payback.
Wendy-- I am getting seriouser and seriouser about the orange flambé and how to "tame" him with humility. He hates dogs and animals. He and his propaganda machines shoveled so much poo at us for years that I think they could all qualify to doo some of their penance time as poo catchers. He of course will Be Best. I am sure he could sell his brandname of poo colored hats and ties....and brown shirts for all his besties!
Thanks for expounding upon your seriously funny and clever forms of punishment for the evil ones. You're on a roll. Also, in my early career I was a social worker specializing in treatment of adolescents. Your humor resonates with me, as does the strength of your passion for justice.
❤️ John Mitchell redo
The elephant in the room is corruption. Jumbo corruption. And while corruption is an equal opportunity corrupter, it's gone septic with the current "GOP.
They wanted a totalitarian regime and were willing for trump to create it.
The crime was unprecedented, it’s why the cover-up. Wonder how many times such has worked. Bet there are a lot of smirking Bushes (and their devotees) around some where…
Michael As a member of the Nixon White House Enemies List during Watergate, I differ with your ‘it’s not the crime, it’s the cover up.’ This statement was true regarding the stupid attempt to tap DNC offices. The Nixon cover up was shattered by Judge Sirica, the Erwin Senate Committee, and finally, Congress and the Supreme Court.
By contrast, with Trump and his Mafiosos, the BIG LIE, the 1/6 Capitol Building insurrection, and the insidious conspiracy are the CRIME. I agree that, in the subsequent cover up, the Secret Service ‘code of silence’ is of remarkable concern. Can a security service of the United States refuse to provide its internal data regarding one of most extraordinary constitutional breeches in America history?
The Church Committee in the early 1970s removed the secrecy veil from many of CIA’s untoward actions. We need the same to shatter the Secret Service’s ‘code of silence.’ (Newspaper accounts suggest that many Secret Service personnel were pro-Trump.)
I may have not been clear but I was referring to the Secret Service and DHS. Now maybe they committed crimes integral to the coup attempt, but we don't know that yet. It's reasonable to suspect that they were involved in a cover-up of unprecedented scope intended to destroy critical evidence.
Fascinating speculative Twitter thread that seems plausible: https://twitter.com/muellershewrote/status/1553016914183540736?s=21&t=BtNfOb_ByH_6l1ecsxGzqw
They were so entitled they didn’t think they’d need burner phones!
Tempted to order and paste large orange stickers across the Trump Pence 2020 lawn signs in our rural Wisconsin: First Term at Levanworth 2022-2052.