Ther have been follow up studies showing that the same percentage of women who birthed and gave up for adoption had the same kinds of sorrow, feelings of guilt, and self negation as those who aborted electively. I have seen no study since abortions are done with medications at home but would guess that for many women the sorrow would still be real. I support termination of pregnancy with counseling before and if needed after such procedures, but the state of "health care" now is not capable of doing what women may need, with the exception of clinics like Planned Parenthood. To forbid the procedure is just another piece of evidence that our society is shifting to the desire for power and control and leaving empathy and kindness behind. Do you feel that happening?
Women have a right to bodily autonomy. Full stop. "Counseling before and if needed after such procedures" is an unnecessary burden placed on more than half the population.
Culturally, for many centuries, masturbation was forbidden. This was due to the association of masturbation with witchcraft and wizardry -- acting to compel others through implanting and cultivating thoughts and urges, often as the target slept.
Elle, I agree counseling is a burden if required by the state, but perhaps it should be freely provided on demand as part of a system of universal healthcare to anyone who feels the need for it.
No matter how well-meaning the idea of counseling might be for women seeking abortions, I see it as the assumption that an abortion is wrong and the woman will regret it. The reasons for seeking an abortion range from simple to highly complex. These reasons are none of your business and the obsession with the need for counseling would be best channeled somewhere else. What Elle said: women...bodily autonomy...full stop!
Yep. This. I am about to say something that the men in this conversation might not want to hear, but here it is. Until MEN are LEGALLY MADE RESPONSIBLE for impregnating women--since it does require the insemination of male sperm to cause a pregnancy--they should SHUT UP. But because the lawmakers and judges who have decided to police women's bodies on everything from the contents of their uteruses to the clothing they wear (I'm talking about YOU, Missouri legislature!!!!) are overwhelmingly male and the women who belly up to the boyz bar are doing so because it advantages them personally and professionally--a situation known in my academic circles as the patriarchal bargain--men will never have to answer for the fact that THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR PREGNANCY. The late great Gerda Lerner, riffing off of Frederick Engels' 1890 essay On the Origins of the Family, Private Property, and the State, in her book The Creation of Patriarchy identifies the sexual enslavement of women in order to guarantee paternity (something Engels pointed out--women were the first humans to be "owned" by men) as the origins of imperialism, the enslavement of others, and ultimately fascism and all its inherent racist and misogynist systems. Gerda's work is a bit problematic in some of the ways she presented the pre-modern past (she was not well versed in the kinds of sources we in the feminist historian community use) and her argument was not particularly nuanced, but it is a compelling one.
So men: shut up. If you're an ally, BE AN ALLY and shut up. Preventing women's bodily autonomy is the last bastion of the autocracy of males. It is time for them to shut up, stop arguing with women, stop mansplaining about women's bodies, and get out of our way.
This is one of the issues that makes me furious. Really, really furious. And see above re: the patriarchal bargain if you want to argue with me about women who are joining the boyz to try to prevent women's bodily autonomy.
My son, a pastor, says men are responsible for every abortion. Until men understand they are complicit for unwanted pregnancies, the law recognizes and demands men be held accountable, women will be owned by men who decide what they can and cannot do with their lives. This was part a of a conversation we had.
Jesus doesn’t address abortion in the New Testament, at all. So that’s a big fat lie.
I do not participate in organized religion (weird, since my son was called to serve). But, I feel organized religion is responsible for wars, hate, persecution and false prophets in it for personal gain, and of course political power. So I completely disregard the religious aspect of this acute nonsense of control of one human being by another.
Women, we’re not demanding that something be done about men’s testicles! We need to start seriously discussing requirements for vasectomies for all men. After all, strict requirements for abortion are required for all women. There is a way to greatly reduce unwanted pregnancies. Stop the sperm, there’s way more sperm than eggs in the first place. Hey! New slogan! STOP THE SPERM!
I’m with you, Linda. As well-meaning as our male colleagues may be, it is hard to believe they truly understand the fundamental horror of being forced to carry a pregnancy against your will. Especially by the (MAGA-driven) State. Positively dystopian.
Back in the 70s, I had 2 abortions. I did not require counseling and in fact, I have read many times that women who choose abortion rarely need counseling before or afterwards. Indeed, men need to shut up. They have no right to interfere with a decision that isn't theirs to make. It's interesting that there is so much misogyny behind the "compassion" many men exhibit in their need to somehow make women who have abortions into victims who need professional counseling. Sorry, David Herrick, but please check yourself, ok?
Wow. What a fascinating discussion. The men on this page are attempting to show support for women. Of course they can't feel or know what a pregnancy or an abortion feels like. But telling 50% of the population to "shut up" and generalizing about their possible behavior or possible beliefs is bewildering to me.
Lumping "men" together is insulting and unproductive. The men here are probably going to be the men who will campaign for and vote for a women's right to reproductive freedom. And you don't think they should have a voice? Really?
Turning away the goodwill and the help of fellow humans suggest that you possibly have another agenda. Not sure what that is.
We are here to help. And you are not going to shut us up.
Sorry, I'm a male and I won't "shut up." Yet, wouldn't it be nice to remove male judges and legislators from the decision making process regarding freedom to choose? Just imagine if there were laws that controlled when and if men could have vasectomies? "Just try it, lady!" they would scream, as they unholster their pistols.
More women in the world need a safe place. There are 6 Matriarchal Societies Around the World. The Umoja tribe in Kenya created a village in 1990 as home to women who have experienced sexual or gender-based violence. Will American women who want to be safe have to start their own country?
One more voice in this chorus agreeing 100% with Linda. Let's be fair and recognize the many compassionate, empathic men that support women and their right to bodily autonomy. Unfortunately they seem to be in the minority. The rest, butt out of this discussion. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Well.. (Linda Mitchell - KCMO) I sure won't interrupt, but I will speak up. And I share in your words. Only area you didn't cover is the religion factor in all this. Since 1954 when we were decreed to be "under god".., women subrogated the right to privacy. Comment on that one.
I am in awe at the complexity and passion of response to the idea of offering counseling to any woman who might want it as part of her decision whether or not to end a pregnancy. The idea that this offering assumes that an abortion is wrong has a flip and harmful side: that women shouldn't have any mixed feelings about ending a pregnancy, and that if they do, they are somehow not truly liberated.
I was a nun for five years from 1963-1968, and when I left, I encountered women at booths in shopping malls advocating for legal abortion. I was appalled; didn't they know abortion was murder? But after a few discussions about why they were doing this work, I learned that when abortion is illegal, rich women (and the mistresses of rich men) fly to where it is legal and poor women and girls die, murdered by bad law. So while I might not ever have chosen to have an abortion myself, I fully support reproductive choice and am appalled at how Republicans have turned this debate into yet another cynical grab for power.
At the same time, I have had several discussion with a young woman who is very dear to me, who, years after a very difficult decision to have an abortion, still experiences regret and even guilt at that decision. Her emotional state is no less worthy of respect and support, which may need to include counseling, than that of a woman who is able to make this decision more easily and without regret. Full stop. (I debated adding "full stop" as too snarky, but somehow it felt right.)
Terry, I know very few women who have made the decision easily. Even when the right, or even only possible decision, it is usually not easy. And I've worked in women's healthcare for decades. There is no right or wrong reason, only the one they make. All of us live with our decisions. Autonomy requires that we be able to make them free of judgment. And yes, counseling in support of autonomous decision is a valuable goal. Maybe if we ever achieve universal health care, we can achieve equitable access to mental, as well as physical, care.
We all make decisions we wrestle with, and some we look back and wish we could rethink. Thank you for supporting your young friend.
Chaplain Terry, I appreciate your willingness to learn and to grow in wisdom. I think that some women truly "need" counseling and emotional support during this time. Of course it shouldn't be a "requirement"; that's just plain stupid. But to have it available for those who need it is necessary and humane.
I hope she gets the help she seeks and is able to internalize the fact that guilt is a useless thing. It largely arises from manmade religious ideology. Religion would serve its practitioners much better by focusing on tolerance.
I think when some women feel total relief after an abortion, there are other women who feel regret or maybe guilt. Women’s feelings about this issue are complex. It’s not an either or could be both.
I'm replying to myself because from the many comments below, it looks like I was not as clear as I might have been in response to the notion that offering counseling to women choosing to have an abortion assumes that there is something wrong with that choice.
What I was trying to say is that there is a harmful flip side to that notion, and that is that it implies that if a women does have mixed feelings or conflict about ending a pregnancy she's not as autonomous or "liberated" as a woman who does not.
I included the story of my dear young friend because she is quite autonomous and intelligent and she still deals with regret over her decision, especially regret that it was necessary at the time.
I have seen in my own life as well as in the lives of many family and friends the wounding that can happen to people when their feelings are judged in any way. Actions can and in some cases should be judged. But feelings need breathing room and acceptance if they are to flow through us rather than get stuck.
I have just returned to DC from 18 days in NYC with my sister who spent her last days in the hospital and died on Jan 20. So HCR's newsletter of 1/21 is the first I've read in that time. My sister was fiercely independent so it seemed fitting that I would have the opportunity to comment on the topic of women's autonomy and reproductive freedom while mourning her death.
I am in full support of your core concept. But abortion and healthcare services are everyone's business. You denigrate David who is not implying anything you are suggesting. While I am disgusted that so many of these decisions have been made by "old white guys", it would seem to be unproductive to alienate the "old white guys" like me who are in full support of your goals.
As you say, the decision can be highly complex. Offering professional help for free as part of a National Healthcare System is hardly invasive - it is the essence of social support. And there is absolutely no implication in such a system that "that an abortion is wrong and the woman will regret it." Couldn't a woman have an abortion for any of multiple legitimate reasons...and still feel like she wants to talk about it? Let's go back to your phrase "highly complex".
True, the decision by a woman to terminate a pregnancy or not should be entirely hers. And a compassionate civilized society would provide the full range of care for the procedure and any counseling the woman may ask for - or not.
We all vote on such stuff. I raise my voice in support of universal health care - for everyone. And that includes the full range of mental health needs. And frankly, don't we need men's votes to get there?
KathyF, your response to my comment shows that you need to learn to read more slowly and carefully before answering rudely.
I do not think abortion is wrong or that women will regret it, though I suppose some might, just as some might reasonably see it as a liberation. Every situation is unique.
Also, I do not suffer from any obsession I am aware of, with the possible exception of being told abortion is none of my business and that I should turn my thoughts elsewhere. It is definitely my business that the same people trying to limit a woman's right to an abortion will also likely try to limit other rights I hold dear.
So yes, "women and bodily autonomy!" But please spare me the "full stop".
David, there was nothing rude about Kathyf’s response. Presuming a need for pre/post abortion counseling plays into the hands of those who claim disingenuously that abortion is immoral and therefore a psychological burden.
The psychological burden is a fabrication of the unnecessary debate itself. Just as there is no other-side-ism to slavery, there is no other-side-ism to bodily autonomy. Forced labor after all is slavery.
Somehow, this conversation makes me think about “well-meaning” efforts of conversion therapy. While sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression aren’t the same as pregnancy, per se, the message is similar.
Absolutely Diane! And the definition of ally-ship in the LGBTQ+ community is not to "heterosplain," talk over people, claim to know better, etc. They ask allies to shut up and listen respectfully. The fact is that men--gay or straight but especially straight white men--are so rarely told to shut up and listen that they get their knickers in a twist when someone does so--especially if it is someone who is not white and/or is in possession of a uterus. If you are female, not straight, and/or not white, being told to "shut up and listen" is often an everyday occurrence. But yet again: the men who are protesting too much on this thread are doing so because they seem to feel that their very existence gives them rights that we don't have. And they're lousy listeners.
I must disagree that the idea of counseling constitutes an assumption that an abortion is wrong. Choosing abortion can be an emotionally wrenching decision and experience for some, though not all, women. An assumption that seeking counseling implies that a "woman has done something wrong" perpetuates the anti-abortion claims that having an abortion is automatically wrong, and simply piles on that attitude to a woman who has made a very difficult decision. Counseling must, however, be a matter of personal choice just as the decision to have an abortion should be.
Let me try to shed more light on my comment. It is the anti-abortionists who use counseling to try and persuade women against having an abortion because they think it is wrong. I fully support a woman's right to choose and support them should they want help in deciding. However, especially with the overturning of Roe v Wade, counseling, sometimes mandatory, can be a minefield of misinformation. Those of us who are pro-choice have let the anti-abortion movement frame abortion as one so fraught with emotional difficulties, it cannot be survived without counseling. While this is true for some women, I think studies tend to show that most women are able to make the decision without major difficulties and abortion is not linked to mental health difficulties. See two such studies: https://www.ansirh.org/sites/default/files/publications/files/mental_health_issue_brief_7-24-2018.pdf and https://www.apa.org/monitor/2022/09/news-facts-abortion-mental-health
A burden? It's imposing upon a woman someone else's idea of how she should handle her feelings surrounding a pregnancy. Women are very well acquainted with the strong feelings surrounding any pregnancy.
I am discouraged and completely baffled that men continue to weigh in on this subject.
You know what, Barbara? Besides agreeing with both you and Linda and many women who have commented, I say this.
I am so tired of defending women’s rights. Who decided we have to DEFEND our rights? And always in an “acceptable” fashion that does not anger anyone or make them feel guilty.
Defending our rights obviously implies someone, somewhere… tried to change or take away those rights.
I will not defend the right to speak of something that IS inherently my right….my body.
I will promote the right of every human to make personal decisions about their bodies. Whether I agree with it or not.
Allow me an example…. I no sooner would weigh in on the emotional or social “correctness” of vasectomies than the man in the moon. Or any trauma associated with it. What do I know of that? I just want that choice available and safe for any man.
Why is it the patriarchal bargain has always been to lead and decide for both genders?
Agree Christine. Thanks for your post. It is beyond infuriating and exhausting that men continue to weigh in on women's issues.
I was thinking of any time there was a totally male issue and what I did with my opinion. Then this memory came. During the Vietnam War there was the draft and also conscientious objectors. Given that I wasn't subject to being drafted I withheld any opinion on the issue.
And yes. I don't talk to men about their vasectomies either.
We (Men) "weigh in" because you women don't put up a united front. You tend to be your own worst enemy. You need us and we need you. But, I have to admit.., sometimes when I look in the mirror I see that I too have nipples and have to wonder if......
Ooops there’s that ‘four letter’ word again Universal healthcare! The maga cult leaders including Leo p Leo. Of the Federalist cabal prefer to have states under fund public education, why would they support Universal health care?
Consideration of the general well being (including mental health) of every patient relative to many procedure would be the ideal for exemplary health care. Even having a colonoscopy can be stressful and frightening. My main point though - I had an abortion of a 3rd pregnancy while married to protect the fragile family I already had. NO REGRETS. Many of my friends terminated pregnancies - NO REGRETS. I'd love to see any real data on post abortion regret in women. I would wager far more just move on with their lives - but maybe society will judge them as cruel while society prefers to judge women with regret as pitiful. Lose/lose for women again.
"The female?"A female horse is a mare. A female pig is a sow. A female chicken is a hen. A female human is a woman. If we're going to dignify animals by using the terms specific to them, can we not afford the same dignity to women?
Abortion is a medical procedure. It is one tool that enables women and their doctors to provide comprehensive health care. Jessica Valenti says pregnancy is to complex to legislate. I feel infuriated that a legislative body thinks it has the right to interfere in a person's healthcare decisions.
Full stop, in deed! Without the Right to control decisions pertaining to their bodies, women are relegated to second class status! Sammie Alito and his like minded and demented members of Roberts’ sham court are apex on our society!
This has been quite an exchange of opinions and ideas! Very, very captivating today! We’ve all done well with articulating our thoughts and feelings. Do we all agree if legislation exists that prohibits all women freedom regarding reproductive rights, should there not also exist legislation regarding men’s reproductive accountability? We can’t have “Johnny Spermseed”
impregnating women willy nilly with no accountability any longer. Or victims of abuse who must prove they’ve been assaulted by a male? That’s been the way of things and will continue until we WOMEN demand accountability from men. They must be forced to use reliable birth control, and have their lives legally affected by their irresponsibility when they do not. It’s what’s being demanded of us women. This must become a 2 way street. Demand male accountability. It’ll be good for all of us.
Agreed, but let's get the US Government to agree that women are entitled to equal rights under the law as a first step, tell President Biden to sign the already ratified Amendment 28 into the Constitution.
This is the email I sent the President: Dear Mr. President.
In 2020 we finally ratified Amendment 28 guaranteeing women Equal Rights under the Law, when Virginia ratified the ERA Amendment 28. All this law does is agree what is scientifically proven, we are all Homo sapiens, there are no sub-species and therefore both genders are entitled to equal recognition. The overturn over Roe v Wade merely amplifies the current status of inequality
Here's another approach. Before justices or legislators can be eligible to vote on an abortion ban, even in cases in which underage girls are raped, they must do the following. Get violently, anally raped by a stranger or family member and have the attacker's semen lodged in a large capsule up their rectum. At the end of nine months, perhaps with new found perspective, they may cast their vote.
Do you believe that a woman should be permitted to terminate a pregnancy—other than by early delivery through caesarean section or medical inducement—if she is 8 1/2 months pregnant with an apparently healthy fetus? Is so, you are in a very small minority. At some point, almost everyone agrees, society has a sufficient interest in the child to limit the mother’s options, just as it does by forbidding infanticide after the child is born.
The hard question is where, during pregnancy, to draw the line.
A woman who carries a pregnancy to 8.5 months does NOT decide to terminate said pregnancy on a whim. If you'd read statistics you'd know that a decision to abort at that stage is because of fetal abnormality inconsistent with life after birth, or extreme risk to the mother's health or life. Butt out!
Of course not. My point was simply that at SOME point society has a right to regulate what may happen to the fetus. For me, as I have explained elsewhere on this string, the court got it pretty much right in Roe, with the viability standard. And the fact that I am male (and a father of two daughters, if you care) does not mean that the societal interest is not there? (Pardon the double-negative.)*
And my point is that, no, at no point does "society" ( read: religion, patriarchy, what-ever) have a right to impose their "interests" upon this decision or its process. Hard no.
My point was that at some point the issue becomes one that is no longer purely personal. Society does have a legitimate interest. Do you believe that that is never true?
An 8 1/2 month pregnancy would be a live induced birth, not an abortion. You are confusing the delivery of a healthy fetus with a late term abortion, which is performed if the fetus is found not to be viable due to extreme abnormalities. In other words, healthy fetuses are never aborted at 8 1/2 months.
My illustration was extreme, but there is a point where most people would agree that society has an interest in what happens to the fetus/nascent child. When should that be? My own view is that the court got it pretty much right in Roe: when the fetus becomes viable outside the womb. That standard is only a guideline. There will be a debate over at what point viability occurs. And should it depend on whether the child could be cared for in a neonatal ICR? Should it make a difference whether the mother is a mature woman who could care for the child, or a teen for him caring for such a tiny infant would be too much to bear? I don't have answers to such questions. But I do believe that there is a time before birth when the likelihood of an independent life is sufficient for the state to set standards, even if I can't say exactly when that is.
Ew. A "mature woman" can't abort because she "can care for the child"? Here we go again. And not a word in your comment about the father!
You should try to recognize your own misogyny before you talk about "standards," namely that the state's "standards" are based in 2,000 years of misogyny and control of women.
Sorry to have caused such a ruckus. I should have said "offering non-mandatory counseling if requested." I really did not mean to imply mandatory counseling. No, I don't think all men need counseling before vasectomy, but there are some people, of all genders, who imagine they will have no regrets before abortion or sterilization who do not do so well after the procedures. Absolutism is not always the best policy, I certainly would hope people see that.
Where does this right come from? Where in general do rights come from? In the collective mind of the Founders, reflecting the Natural Law tradition of their schooling and reflected in the Declaration of Independence, rights are derived from duties.
This is also reflected in the wording of the Second Amendment: Men had the DUTY to bring their guns to militia training, so of course they had a right to own a gun. (And regarding the right of Black men -- Union veterans in the deep South -- to bear arms as part of a county militia, look up the Colfax Massacre.)
Thank you for the Founding Father background info! Lest we not forget, these men did NOT include women in the list of those who can vote! They get credit for negotiating to form The United States of America, but not for their lack of understanding of their phrase ‘All men (?) are created equal’ ! Indeed they did not consider men of color to be equal and the omission of women in their statement clearly was not unintended!
Frank, when you get pregnant, you can go through counseling, or any other hoop of fire you choose to jump through. Until then, mind your own business. Stop with your opinions of what you think women should have to submit to before being allowed to have a surgical procedure. How dare you.
DLM - Frank posted this to clarify his earlier post because so many, like yourself, made assumptions due to his less-clearly articulated original post:
"Frank Mitchell Jan 22
Sorry to have caused such a ruckus. I should have said "offering non-mandatory counseling if requested." I really did not mean to imply mandatory counseling. No, I don't think all men need counseling before vasectomy, but there are some people, of all genders, who imagine they will have no regrets before abortion or sterilization who do not do so well after the procedures. Absolutism is not always the best policy, I certainly would hope people see that."
High quality therapeutic counseling should be readily available to all who need or want it; it should not be a condition for access to reproductive health care.
I would be interested in studies related to the emotional reactions of the men who participated in creating the pregnancy. Of course, I’m talking about accountability, which is largely left out of all of this mishigas.
Frank, I agree with much of what you say, with the exception of "counseling." That word suggests that women are not intelligent enough to make such a decision on their own, and I find that offensive and paternalistic.
Frank, not to be rude, but using the word "studies" is a red herring. Name those studies, please, and note if they come from biased sources. Also, there are so many reasons for mood problems before, during and after pregnancy. What are the fluctuations of hormones, for example? What are the environmental influences at home?
Although your comment is concerned about women (thank you), nevertheless it is still advocating "control" in some way; an assumption of a woman's "need.".
But yes, there is a tidal wave of desperate attempts to return to a time of straight, white male supremacy (and of the women who support them.) Just look at Putin and Trump, for a prime example.
When was the last time it was recommended on the national stage that men get counseling? This counseling thing plays right into the age old "hysterical woman" patriarchy.
"Hyster" is the Latin word for uterus. Really, are men required to get counseling before a vasectomy? Throughout the ages women have been portrayed as confused, overly emotional, immature, stupid, flighty, shrill, bitter, etc.
True! Just what if all men were required to get counseling? Perhaps there would be much less violence in our society. No mass shootings with weapons of mass destruction. No domestic violence. No rapes, possibly no religion!! No superiority complex...ah, well....I have a dream...
Through the NIH national library of medicine one can access several articles, a very comprehensive review being:
SAGE Open Med. 2018; 6: 2050312118807624.
Published online 2018 Oct 29. doi: 10.1177/2050312118807624: Title is:
The abortion and mental health controversy: A comprehensive literature review of common ground agreements, disagreements, actionable recommendations, and research opportunities
That is actually a far more recent review than I recall . I used to keep a file of all the articles I read, but when I retired from practice of medicine I sent them to the recycle bin. My apologies and to those who think this is not anything a man should be talking about, I beg your indulgence. I was born male and have not decided in 79 years to change that.
Okay, Frank, thank you. I want to be clear that you can make recommendations, of course. My point is that men should be much more sensitive to "prescribing" for women. We really are capable of self-care and decisions about our reproductive health. Stating a well-thought-out opinion is one thing. Making a determination for women is another.
With that statement I agree wholeheartedly. I always looked at medical care as a partnership between information seeker and information "repository". Part of it was learning early on that "giving orders" didn't work at all for nearly anyone. (Communication theory - a book authored by a guy named Watzlawick - helped find alternatives.) Would that that were the norm, which I think has been one of the reasons that women in the nurse practitioner roles are gaining popularity and revolutionizing primary care.
Interesting post, Frank. In the 70s, pre-Roe, two young women in my dorm had illegal abortions. One brushed it off but the other was suicidally depressed. I had read that post-part depression can occur following either a birth or an abortion (due to the enormous changes in hormones), and I believed a lack of post-abortion care during the days of illegal abortion nearly caused this young woman’s death.
Or it could have been her mental state going into the abortion in the first place. Or it could have been her mental state from her upbringing, boyfriend issues, etc etc etc.
Requiring abortion counseling is abusive and invasive.
Counseling would probably be helpful in the case of any pregnancy: giving birth and becoming responsible for a human life is a forever life-altering decision.
And as far as adoption as an option: I don’t see how that is even comparable - carrying a pregnancy to term and then separating from the infant. Definitely need counseling there.
Thank you, Jeanne. Many birth mothers, and adoptees, suffer lifelong trauma of relinquishment.Although according to the Repubs, it’s all unicorns and rainbows…
We will more than forgive you any error you make because you correct them. And you must know how much we, (I know I can speak for most of your subscribers) love your "letters". I can't wait to read them and appreciate them more than I can say. So, thank you, thank you for your terrific "letters". The are brilliant and educational.
Messed up Harry Blackmun's name AGAIN!!! For some reason, I always want him to be "Lewis." Sorry about that.
Ther have been follow up studies showing that the same percentage of women who birthed and gave up for adoption had the same kinds of sorrow, feelings of guilt, and self negation as those who aborted electively. I have seen no study since abortions are done with medications at home but would guess that for many women the sorrow would still be real. I support termination of pregnancy with counseling before and if needed after such procedures, but the state of "health care" now is not capable of doing what women may need, with the exception of clinics like Planned Parenthood. To forbid the procedure is just another piece of evidence that our society is shifting to the desire for power and control and leaving empathy and kindness behind. Do you feel that happening?
Women have a right to bodily autonomy. Full stop. "Counseling before and if needed after such procedures" is an unnecessary burden placed on more than half the population.
Should there be a law requiring men to have counseling before and after masturbation?
I recommend talking it over with your wife first. There might be a far more enjoyable evening ahead if you do!
:-)
Yes, destroying potential life should be a crime.LOL
LOL
Before and after having a vasectomy?
Or a vasectomy ?
Culturally, for many centuries, masturbation was forbidden. This was due to the association of masturbation with witchcraft and wizardry -- acting to compel others through implanting and cultivating thoughts and urges, often as the target slept.
Elle, I agree counseling is a burden if required by the state, but perhaps it should be freely provided on demand as part of a system of universal healthcare to anyone who feels the need for it.
No matter how well-meaning the idea of counseling might be for women seeking abortions, I see it as the assumption that an abortion is wrong and the woman will regret it. The reasons for seeking an abortion range from simple to highly complex. These reasons are none of your business and the obsession with the need for counseling would be best channeled somewhere else. What Elle said: women...bodily autonomy...full stop!
Yep. This. I am about to say something that the men in this conversation might not want to hear, but here it is. Until MEN are LEGALLY MADE RESPONSIBLE for impregnating women--since it does require the insemination of male sperm to cause a pregnancy--they should SHUT UP. But because the lawmakers and judges who have decided to police women's bodies on everything from the contents of their uteruses to the clothing they wear (I'm talking about YOU, Missouri legislature!!!!) are overwhelmingly male and the women who belly up to the boyz bar are doing so because it advantages them personally and professionally--a situation known in my academic circles as the patriarchal bargain--men will never have to answer for the fact that THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR PREGNANCY. The late great Gerda Lerner, riffing off of Frederick Engels' 1890 essay On the Origins of the Family, Private Property, and the State, in her book The Creation of Patriarchy identifies the sexual enslavement of women in order to guarantee paternity (something Engels pointed out--women were the first humans to be "owned" by men) as the origins of imperialism, the enslavement of others, and ultimately fascism and all its inherent racist and misogynist systems. Gerda's work is a bit problematic in some of the ways she presented the pre-modern past (she was not well versed in the kinds of sources we in the feminist historian community use) and her argument was not particularly nuanced, but it is a compelling one.
So men: shut up. If you're an ally, BE AN ALLY and shut up. Preventing women's bodily autonomy is the last bastion of the autocracy of males. It is time for them to shut up, stop arguing with women, stop mansplaining about women's bodies, and get out of our way.
This is one of the issues that makes me furious. Really, really furious. And see above re: the patriarchal bargain if you want to argue with me about women who are joining the boyz to try to prevent women's bodily autonomy.
My son, a pastor, says men are responsible for every abortion. Until men understand they are complicit for unwanted pregnancies, the law recognizes and demands men be held accountable, women will be owned by men who decide what they can and cannot do with their lives. This was part a of a conversation we had.
Jesus doesn’t address abortion in the New Testament, at all. So that’s a big fat lie.
I do not participate in organized religion (weird, since my son was called to serve). But, I feel organized religion is responsible for wars, hate, persecution and false prophets in it for personal gain, and of course political power. So I completely disregard the religious aspect of this acute nonsense of control of one human being by another.
Women, we’re not demanding that something be done about men’s testicles! We need to start seriously discussing requirements for vasectomies for all men. After all, strict requirements for abortion are required for all women. There is a way to greatly reduce unwanted pregnancies. Stop the sperm, there’s way more sperm than eggs in the first place. Hey! New slogan! STOP THE SPERM!
I’m with you, Linda. As well-meaning as our male colleagues may be, it is hard to believe they truly understand the fundamental horror of being forced to carry a pregnancy against your will. Especially by the (MAGA-driven) State. Positively dystopian.
Back in the 70s, I had 2 abortions. I did not require counseling and in fact, I have read many times that women who choose abortion rarely need counseling before or afterwards. Indeed, men need to shut up. They have no right to interfere with a decision that isn't theirs to make. It's interesting that there is so much misogyny behind the "compassion" many men exhibit in their need to somehow make women who have abortions into victims who need professional counseling. Sorry, David Herrick, but please check yourself, ok?
Wow. What a fascinating discussion. The men on this page are attempting to show support for women. Of course they can't feel or know what a pregnancy or an abortion feels like. But telling 50% of the population to "shut up" and generalizing about their possible behavior or possible beliefs is bewildering to me.
Lumping "men" together is insulting and unproductive. The men here are probably going to be the men who will campaign for and vote for a women's right to reproductive freedom. And you don't think they should have a voice? Really?
Turning away the goodwill and the help of fellow humans suggest that you possibly have another agenda. Not sure what that is.
We are here to help. And you are not going to shut us up.
Sorry, I'm a male and I won't "shut up." Yet, wouldn't it be nice to remove male judges and legislators from the decision making process regarding freedom to choose? Just imagine if there were laws that controlled when and if men could have vasectomies? "Just try it, lady!" they would scream, as they unholster their pistols.
You are getting riled up about a completely legitimate issue, which is NOT happening in the comments here.
Show me where making counseling available to anyone who wants it infringes on any woman's right to reproductive freedom.
More women in the world need a safe place. There are 6 Matriarchal Societies Around the World. The Umoja tribe in Kenya created a village in 1990 as home to women who have experienced sexual or gender-based violence. Will American women who want to be safe have to start their own country?
https://www.townandcountrymag.com/society/tradition/g28565280/matriarchal-societies-list/
One more voice in this chorus agreeing 100% with Linda. Let's be fair and recognize the many compassionate, empathic men that support women and their right to bodily autonomy. Unfortunately they seem to be in the minority. The rest, butt out of this discussion. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Awesome!!
Well.. (Linda Mitchell - KCMO) I sure won't interrupt, but I will speak up. And I share in your words. Only area you didn't cover is the religion factor in all this. Since 1954 when we were decreed to be "under god".., women subrogated the right to privacy. Comment on that one.
Well said!
I agree wholeheartedly, Linda!
28 arguments showing men are responsible for pregnancy . EJACULATE RESPONSIBLY BY Blair
I am in awe at the complexity and passion of response to the idea of offering counseling to any woman who might want it as part of her decision whether or not to end a pregnancy. The idea that this offering assumes that an abortion is wrong has a flip and harmful side: that women shouldn't have any mixed feelings about ending a pregnancy, and that if they do, they are somehow not truly liberated.
I was a nun for five years from 1963-1968, and when I left, I encountered women at booths in shopping malls advocating for legal abortion. I was appalled; didn't they know abortion was murder? But after a few discussions about why they were doing this work, I learned that when abortion is illegal, rich women (and the mistresses of rich men) fly to where it is legal and poor women and girls die, murdered by bad law. So while I might not ever have chosen to have an abortion myself, I fully support reproductive choice and am appalled at how Republicans have turned this debate into yet another cynical grab for power.
At the same time, I have had several discussion with a young woman who is very dear to me, who, years after a very difficult decision to have an abortion, still experiences regret and even guilt at that decision. Her emotional state is no less worthy of respect and support, which may need to include counseling, than that of a woman who is able to make this decision more easily and without regret. Full stop. (I debated adding "full stop" as too snarky, but somehow it felt right.)
Terry, I know very few women who have made the decision easily. Even when the right, or even only possible decision, it is usually not easy. And I've worked in women's healthcare for decades. There is no right or wrong reason, only the one they make. All of us live with our decisions. Autonomy requires that we be able to make them free of judgment. And yes, counseling in support of autonomous decision is a valuable goal. Maybe if we ever achieve universal health care, we can achieve equitable access to mental, as well as physical, care.
We all make decisions we wrestle with, and some we look back and wish we could rethink. Thank you for supporting your young friend.
Chaplain Terry, I appreciate your willingness to learn and to grow in wisdom. I think that some women truly "need" counseling and emotional support during this time. Of course it shouldn't be a "requirement"; that's just plain stupid. But to have it available for those who need it is necessary and humane.
I hope she gets the help she seeks and is able to internalize the fact that guilt is a useless thing. It largely arises from manmade religious ideology. Religion would serve its practitioners much better by focusing on tolerance.
I think when some women feel total relief after an abortion, there are other women who feel regret or maybe guilt. Women’s feelings about this issue are complex. It’s not an either or could be both.
I'm replying to myself because from the many comments below, it looks like I was not as clear as I might have been in response to the notion that offering counseling to women choosing to have an abortion assumes that there is something wrong with that choice.
What I was trying to say is that there is a harmful flip side to that notion, and that is that it implies that if a women does have mixed feelings or conflict about ending a pregnancy she's not as autonomous or "liberated" as a woman who does not.
I included the story of my dear young friend because she is quite autonomous and intelligent and she still deals with regret over her decision, especially regret that it was necessary at the time.
I have seen in my own life as well as in the lives of many family and friends the wounding that can happen to people when their feelings are judged in any way. Actions can and in some cases should be judged. But feelings need breathing room and acceptance if they are to flow through us rather than get stuck.
I have just returned to DC from 18 days in NYC with my sister who spent her last days in the hospital and died on Jan 20. So HCR's newsletter of 1/21 is the first I've read in that time. My sister was fiercely independent so it seemed fitting that I would have the opportunity to comment on the topic of women's autonomy and reproductive freedom while mourning her death.
"that women shouldn't have any mixed feelings about ending a pregnancy, and that if they do, they are somehow not truly liberated."
Kindly explain what you mean by "liberated." It hints at misogyny.
I am in full support of your core concept. But abortion and healthcare services are everyone's business. You denigrate David who is not implying anything you are suggesting. While I am disgusted that so many of these decisions have been made by "old white guys", it would seem to be unproductive to alienate the "old white guys" like me who are in full support of your goals.
As you say, the decision can be highly complex. Offering professional help for free as part of a National Healthcare System is hardly invasive - it is the essence of social support. And there is absolutely no implication in such a system that "that an abortion is wrong and the woman will regret it." Couldn't a woman have an abortion for any of multiple legitimate reasons...and still feel like she wants to talk about it? Let's go back to your phrase "highly complex".
True, the decision by a woman to terminate a pregnancy or not should be entirely hers. And a compassionate civilized society would provide the full range of care for the procedure and any counseling the woman may ask for - or not.
We all vote on such stuff. I raise my voice in support of universal health care - for everyone. And that includes the full range of mental health needs. And frankly, don't we need men's votes to get there?
What about the man's need for counseling?
KathyF, your response to my comment shows that you need to learn to read more slowly and carefully before answering rudely.
I do not think abortion is wrong or that women will regret it, though I suppose some might, just as some might reasonably see it as a liberation. Every situation is unique.
Also, I do not suffer from any obsession I am aware of, with the possible exception of being told abortion is none of my business and that I should turn my thoughts elsewhere. It is definitely my business that the same people trying to limit a woman's right to an abortion will also likely try to limit other rights I hold dear.
So yes, "women and bodily autonomy!" But please spare me the "full stop".
David, there was nothing rude about Kathyf’s response. Presuming a need for pre/post abortion counseling plays into the hands of those who claim disingenuously that abortion is immoral and therefore a psychological burden.
The psychological burden is a fabrication of the unnecessary debate itself. Just as there is no other-side-ism to slavery, there is no other-side-ism to bodily autonomy. Forced labor after all is slavery.
David. You are outnumbered. You have been told in very clear terms it's really not your business.
Throwing in your rights with abortion is outlandish at best.
Exactly, Kathy. Thank you.
Kathy, the key words are, "on demand," and "for anyone who feels the need for it."
The choice would be up to the woman. David is not claiming this is any of his business. I think you do him an injustice.
If counseling were available as part of a National Health program, no one would be forced or coerced. They could choose it. Or not.
Thank you Cheryl! At least someone understands me.
Somehow, this conversation makes me think about “well-meaning” efforts of conversion therapy. While sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression aren’t the same as pregnancy, per se, the message is similar.
Absolutely Diane! And the definition of ally-ship in the LGBTQ+ community is not to "heterosplain," talk over people, claim to know better, etc. They ask allies to shut up and listen respectfully. The fact is that men--gay or straight but especially straight white men--are so rarely told to shut up and listen that they get their knickers in a twist when someone does so--especially if it is someone who is not white and/or is in possession of a uterus. If you are female, not straight, and/or not white, being told to "shut up and listen" is often an everyday occurrence. But yet again: the men who are protesting too much on this thread are doing so because they seem to feel that their very existence gives them rights that we don't have. And they're lousy listeners.
I must disagree that the idea of counseling constitutes an assumption that an abortion is wrong. Choosing abortion can be an emotionally wrenching decision and experience for some, though not all, women. An assumption that seeking counseling implies that a "woman has done something wrong" perpetuates the anti-abortion claims that having an abortion is automatically wrong, and simply piles on that attitude to a woman who has made a very difficult decision. Counseling must, however, be a matter of personal choice just as the decision to have an abortion should be.
Let me try to shed more light on my comment. It is the anti-abortionists who use counseling to try and persuade women against having an abortion because they think it is wrong. I fully support a woman's right to choose and support them should they want help in deciding. However, especially with the overturning of Roe v Wade, counseling, sometimes mandatory, can be a minefield of misinformation. Those of us who are pro-choice have let the anti-abortion movement frame abortion as one so fraught with emotional difficulties, it cannot be survived without counseling. While this is true for some women, I think studies tend to show that most women are able to make the decision without major difficulties and abortion is not linked to mental health difficulties. See two such studies: https://www.ansirh.org/sites/default/files/publications/files/mental_health_issue_brief_7-24-2018.pdf and https://www.apa.org/monitor/2022/09/news-facts-abortion-mental-health
A burden? It's imposing upon a woman someone else's idea of how she should handle her feelings surrounding a pregnancy. Women are very well acquainted with the strong feelings surrounding any pregnancy.
I am discouraged and completely baffled that men continue to weigh in on this subject.
You know what, Barbara? Besides agreeing with both you and Linda and many women who have commented, I say this.
I am so tired of defending women’s rights. Who decided we have to DEFEND our rights? And always in an “acceptable” fashion that does not anger anyone or make them feel guilty.
Defending our rights obviously implies someone, somewhere… tried to change or take away those rights.
I will not defend the right to speak of something that IS inherently my right….my body.
I will promote the right of every human to make personal decisions about their bodies. Whether I agree with it or not.
Allow me an example…. I no sooner would weigh in on the emotional or social “correctness” of vasectomies than the man in the moon. Or any trauma associated with it. What do I know of that? I just want that choice available and safe for any man.
Why is it the patriarchal bargain has always been to lead and decide for both genders?
Ummmm, no.
Salud!
🗽
Agree Christine. Thanks for your post. It is beyond infuriating and exhausting that men continue to weigh in on women's issues.
I was thinking of any time there was a totally male issue and what I did with my opinion. Then this memory came. During the Vietnam War there was the draft and also conscientious objectors. Given that I wasn't subject to being drafted I withheld any opinion on the issue.
And yes. I don't talk to men about their vasectomies either.
FYI, David said counseling is a burden if imposed by the state.
I agree.
And I agree that some women might well choose counseling with someone they trust if they are struggling to make the decision. our body, our choice.
We (Men) "weigh in" because you women don't put up a united front. You tend to be your own worst enemy. You need us and we need you. But, I have to admit.., sometimes when I look in the mirror I see that I too have nipples and have to wonder if......
IT IS FREELY PROVIDED. Has been for the last 50 years. I had a counseling session before the
procedure 30 YEARS AGO after being assaulted on a date.
Ooops there’s that ‘four letter’ word again Universal healthcare! The maga cult leaders including Leo p Leo. Of the Federalist cabal prefer to have states under fund public education, why would they support Universal health care?
Consideration of the general well being (including mental health) of every patient relative to many procedure would be the ideal for exemplary health care. Even having a colonoscopy can be stressful and frightening. My main point though - I had an abortion of a 3rd pregnancy while married to protect the fragile family I already had. NO REGRETS. Many of my friends terminated pregnancies - NO REGRETS. I'd love to see any real data on post abortion regret in women. I would wager far more just move on with their lives - but maybe society will judge them as cruel while society prefers to judge women with regret as pitiful. Lose/lose for women again.
Margaret, I've had much the same experience as you. I found one small study that reports some of what you request: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.socscimed.2019.112704
Thanks so much! Excellent scientific article. So why is there all the fuss about post abortion regret? Spin and headlines, I guess.
Thank you for this resource.
Very well said, Margaret.
Elle I agree only if that counseling is forced on the female. Counseling should be offered if the female wants it.
"The female?"A female horse is a mare. A female pig is a sow. A female chicken is a hen. A female human is a woman. If we're going to dignify animals by using the terms specific to them, can we not afford the same dignity to women?
Abortion is a medical procedure. It is one tool that enables women and their doctors to provide comprehensive health care. Jessica Valenti says pregnancy is to complex to legislate. I feel infuriated that a legislative body thinks it has the right to interfere in a person's healthcare decisions.
Full stop, in deed! Without the Right to control decisions pertaining to their bodies, women are relegated to second class status! Sammie Alito and his like minded and demented members of Roberts’ sham court are apex on our society!
Alito is the leak, Ginni Thomas pushed for the leak and Thomas is a patsy. The Supreme Circus.
LOL Thanks
Thank you, I do love modern men who are sufficiently sure of their own worth to share the rights with others.
This has been quite an exchange of opinions and ideas! Very, very captivating today! We’ve all done well with articulating our thoughts and feelings. Do we all agree if legislation exists that prohibits all women freedom regarding reproductive rights, should there not also exist legislation regarding men’s reproductive accountability? We can’t have “Johnny Spermseed”
impregnating women willy nilly with no accountability any longer. Or victims of abuse who must prove they’ve been assaulted by a male? That’s been the way of things and will continue until we WOMEN demand accountability from men. They must be forced to use reliable birth control, and have their lives legally affected by their irresponsibility when they do not. It’s what’s being demanded of us women. This must become a 2 way street. Demand male accountability. It’ll be good for all of us.
Agreed, but let's get the US Government to agree that women are entitled to equal rights under the law as a first step, tell President Biden to sign the already ratified Amendment 28 into the Constitution.
This is the email I sent the President: Dear Mr. President.
In 2020 we finally ratified Amendment 28 guaranteeing women Equal Rights under the Law, when Virginia ratified the ERA Amendment 28. All this law does is agree what is scientifically proven, we are all Homo sapiens, there are no sub-species and therefore both genders are entitled to equal recognition. The overturn over Roe v Wade merely amplifies the current status of inequality
Thank you,
Fay Reid
Excellent!
Absolutely 💯. I’m sick of that being left out flapping in the wind! Get to it!
Absolutely right. Karen.
Here's another approach. Before justices or legislators can be eligible to vote on an abortion ban, even in cases in which underage girls are raped, they must do the following. Get violently, anally raped by a stranger or family member and have the attacker's semen lodged in a large capsule up their rectum. At the end of nine months, perhaps with new found perspective, they may cast their vote.
Do you believe that a woman should be permitted to terminate a pregnancy—other than by early delivery through caesarean section or medical inducement—if she is 8 1/2 months pregnant with an apparently healthy fetus? Is so, you are in a very small minority. At some point, almost everyone agrees, society has a sufficient interest in the child to limit the mother’s options, just as it does by forbidding infanticide after the child is born.
The hard question is where, during pregnancy, to draw the line.
A woman who carries a pregnancy to 8.5 months does NOT decide to terminate said pregnancy on a whim. If you'd read statistics you'd know that a decision to abort at that stage is because of fetal abnormality inconsistent with life after birth, or extreme risk to the mother's health or life. Butt out!
Of course not. My point was simply that at SOME point society has a right to regulate what may happen to the fetus. For me, as I have explained elsewhere on this string, the court got it pretty much right in Roe, with the viability standard. And the fact that I am male (and a father of two daughters, if you care) does not mean that the societal interest is not there? (Pardon the double-negative.)*
And my point is that, no, at no point does "society" ( read: religion, patriarchy, what-ever) have a right to impose their "interests" upon this decision or its process. Hard no.
When you get pregnant, you can decide.
My point was that at some point the issue becomes one that is no longer purely personal. Society does have a legitimate interest. Do you believe that that is never true?
This is an absurd question, asked simply to piss people off. I am quite sure that this situation has never existed.
An 8 1/2 month pregnancy would be a live induced birth, not an abortion. You are confusing the delivery of a healthy fetus with a late term abortion, which is performed if the fetus is found not to be viable due to extreme abnormalities. In other words, healthy fetuses are never aborted at 8 1/2 months.
My illustration was extreme, but there is a point where most people would agree that society has an interest in what happens to the fetus/nascent child. When should that be? My own view is that the court got it pretty much right in Roe: when the fetus becomes viable outside the womb. That standard is only a guideline. There will be a debate over at what point viability occurs. And should it depend on whether the child could be cared for in a neonatal ICR? Should it make a difference whether the mother is a mature woman who could care for the child, or a teen for him caring for such a tiny infant would be too much to bear? I don't have answers to such questions. But I do believe that there is a time before birth when the likelihood of an independent life is sufficient for the state to set standards, even if I can't say exactly when that is.
Ew. A "mature woman" can't abort because she "can care for the child"? Here we go again. And not a word in your comment about the father!
You should try to recognize your own misogyny before you talk about "standards," namely that the state's "standards" are based in 2,000 years of misogyny and control of women.
Absa-damn-lutely!!
Sorry to have caused such a ruckus. I should have said "offering non-mandatory counseling if requested." I really did not mean to imply mandatory counseling. No, I don't think all men need counseling before vasectomy, but there are some people, of all genders, who imagine they will have no regrets before abortion or sterilization who do not do so well after the procedures. Absolutism is not always the best policy, I certainly would hope people see that.
Where does this right come from? Where in general do rights come from? In the collective mind of the Founders, reflecting the Natural Law tradition of their schooling and reflected in the Declaration of Independence, rights are derived from duties.
This is also reflected in the wording of the Second Amendment: Men had the DUTY to bring their guns to militia training, so of course they had a right to own a gun. (And regarding the right of Black men -- Union veterans in the deep South -- to bear arms as part of a county militia, look up the Colfax Massacre.)
Thank you for the Founding Father background info! Lest we not forget, these men did NOT include women in the list of those who can vote! They get credit for negotiating to form The United States of America, but not for their lack of understanding of their phrase ‘All men (?) are created equal’ ! Indeed they did not consider men of color to be equal and the omission of women in their statement clearly was not unintended!
Frank, when you get pregnant, you can go through counseling, or any other hoop of fire you choose to jump through. Until then, mind your own business. Stop with your opinions of what you think women should have to submit to before being allowed to have a surgical procedure. How dare you.
I didn’t read his post as saying this
Amen!
DLM - Frank posted this to clarify his earlier post because so many, like yourself, made assumptions due to his less-clearly articulated original post:
"Frank Mitchell Jan 22
Sorry to have caused such a ruckus. I should have said "offering non-mandatory counseling if requested." I really did not mean to imply mandatory counseling. No, I don't think all men need counseling before vasectomy, but there are some people, of all genders, who imagine they will have no regrets before abortion or sterilization who do not do so well after the procedures. Absolutism is not always the best policy, I certainly would hope people see that."
High quality therapeutic counseling should be readily available to all who need or want it; it should not be a condition for access to reproductive health care.
Yes, the stigmatization of mental health care should be abolished, and those who wish to control women would benefit from its availability.
I would be interested in studies related to the emotional reactions of the men who participated in creating the pregnancy. Of course, I’m talking about accountability, which is largely left out of all of this mishigas.
Frank, I agree with much of what you say, with the exception of "counseling." That word suggests that women are not intelligent enough to make such a decision on their own, and I find that offensive and paternalistic.
Well said. Thank you Nancy.
❤️At nearly 80, I have somewhat less tolerance for even well-intended paternalism
The complete abortion issue is a woman's business. Men have zero say in this.
Frank, not to be rude, but using the word "studies" is a red herring. Name those studies, please, and note if they come from biased sources. Also, there are so many reasons for mood problems before, during and after pregnancy. What are the fluctuations of hormones, for example? What are the environmental influences at home?
Although your comment is concerned about women (thank you), nevertheless it is still advocating "control" in some way; an assumption of a woman's "need.".
But yes, there is a tidal wave of desperate attempts to return to a time of straight, white male supremacy (and of the women who support them.) Just look at Putin and Trump, for a prime example.
When was the last time it was recommended on the national stage that men get counseling? This counseling thing plays right into the age old "hysterical woman" patriarchy.
"Hyster" is the Latin word for uterus. Really, are men required to get counseling before a vasectomy? Throughout the ages women have been portrayed as confused, overly emotional, immature, stupid, flighty, shrill, bitter, etc.
True! Just what if all men were required to get counseling? Perhaps there would be much less violence in our society. No mass shootings with weapons of mass destruction. No domestic violence. No rapes, possibly no religion!! No superiority complex...ah, well....I have a dream...
Gosh Hope think we should start a movement? The "Mandatory for Men!" movement.
Through the NIH national library of medicine one can access several articles, a very comprehensive review being:
SAGE Open Med. 2018; 6: 2050312118807624.
Published online 2018 Oct 29. doi: 10.1177/2050312118807624: Title is:
The abortion and mental health controversy: A comprehensive literature review of common ground agreements, disagreements, actionable recommendations, and research opportunities
That is actually a far more recent review than I recall . I used to keep a file of all the articles I read, but when I retired from practice of medicine I sent them to the recycle bin. My apologies and to those who think this is not anything a man should be talking about, I beg your indulgence. I was born male and have not decided in 79 years to change that.
Okay, Frank, thank you. I want to be clear that you can make recommendations, of course. My point is that men should be much more sensitive to "prescribing" for women. We really are capable of self-care and decisions about our reproductive health. Stating a well-thought-out opinion is one thing. Making a determination for women is another.
With that statement I agree wholeheartedly. I always looked at medical care as a partnership between information seeker and information "repository". Part of it was learning early on that "giving orders" didn't work at all for nearly anyone. (Communication theory - a book authored by a guy named Watzlawick - helped find alternatives.) Would that that were the norm, which I think has been one of the reasons that women in the nurse practitioner roles are gaining popularity and revolutionizing primary care.
Counseling? Hogwash! And as to that “follow up study”? More hogwash!
Interesting post, Frank. In the 70s, pre-Roe, two young women in my dorm had illegal abortions. One brushed it off but the other was suicidally depressed. I had read that post-part depression can occur following either a birth or an abortion (due to the enormous changes in hormones), and I believed a lack of post-abortion care during the days of illegal abortion nearly caused this young woman’s death.
Or it could have been her mental state going into the abortion in the first place. Or it could have been her mental state from her upbringing, boyfriend issues, etc etc etc.
Requiring abortion counseling is abusive and invasive.
I never said counseling should be required.
I never said you did.
Counseling would probably be helpful in the case of any pregnancy: giving birth and becoming responsible for a human life is a forever life-altering decision.
And as far as adoption as an option: I don’t see how that is even comparable - carrying a pregnancy to term and then separating from the infant. Definitely need counseling there.
Thank you, Jeanne. Many birth mothers, and adoptees, suffer lifelong trauma of relinquishment.Although according to the Repubs, it’s all unicorns and rainbows…
Are abortion doctors, who routinely dismember fetuses as part if the procedure, more likely to be alcoholics?
We will more than forgive you any error you make because you correct them. And you must know how much we, (I know I can speak for most of your subscribers) love your "letters". I can't wait to read them and appreciate them more than I can say. So, thank you, thank you for your terrific "letters". The are brilliant and educational.