407 Comments

Holy smokes, Heather ! This is one of the most interesting letters you’ve written thus far (my opinion). Such history, which we weren’t taught in school. Thank you !!

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I studied the American Revolution as a sixteen and seventeen-year old schoolboy in Britain. This was part of a history course, a "special subject" designed to teach us the study of documents and archives, the basics of historians' methodology.

If it weren't for that, I doubt if I'd be among you here...

I was very, very interested in the subject but, oh, this wonderfully illuminating detail! If only we'd had even a smidgen of it... And Benjamin West's picture sums it all up... with my compatriots dissolving into "Holy Smokes"...

So grateful. Reminds me, I must renew my subscription!

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Holy Smokes. An apt description!

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And this fabulous picture at the end. Talking about telling absence

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Jan 15, 2023·edited Jan 15, 2023

Olof,

I studied the picture/painting in great interest. All of the American men are clean shaven in a time before electricity.

Whenever I go anywhere in my town today, grocery store, diner, whatever, I see American men (usually under 35) with giant beards that sometimes span down to their chest like those guys on that show I never watched called Duck Dynasty.

I don't understand the modern origins of the ridiculously large beard on American men. Are they trying to look like the southern fighters in a Clint Eastwood movie?

I grew a shorter beard once at about age 35 and: 1) my wife hated it and 2) it was a time waster, it required too much messing around.

So, I shaved it off after 6 weeks or so. Plus, it looked dumb.

I am glad to see that those founding our country had the good sense to shave.

:-) :-)

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It’s interesting to read these musings. I’m wondering if any of your observations about facial hair also included observations about the powdered white wigs with curls, with the exception of Ben Franklin, of course. I’m no expert, but seems possible that the wigs hid balding heads and when they went out of fashion beards made up the difference. Just a guess.

Along those lines, men of the time also wore long stockings, brass buckle shoes, frilly blouses, and long waist coats. Makes me wonder what all the fuss is about when some men today choose to do the same. It’s perfectly clear that to our revered “Founding Fathers” this style was fashionable.

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Jen, great observations to ponder perhaps inconsequential but just the same, interesting to ponder. This classroom in which we’ve chosen to take part, adds so much to the learning of missing pieces or better stated, missing details and nuances of history. Interesting reading (always) this morning.

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Jan 15, 2023·edited Jan 15, 2023

I took no special interest in the no beards in the picture, but I am all with you on this issue. I resisted until last year to have a beard. Young folks are just trying to claim some authority of elders with having a beard, I thought; at the same time as elders don't have much authority!

I forgot my razor back home for a week, and two close friends thought it looked great. So, that's where I am today: trimming every second day and clean shaven around the mouth; a bit like my son in law. OK for me 77.

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Jan 15, 2023·edited Jan 15, 2023

Surprised by my strong negative reaction to men with beards, known a few that I’ve liked who came with beards — not boyfriends. While I never particularly liked beards, it appears that I’ve come to like them less. Your comment, Olof, prompted this confession and also to do a bit of research. There is at least one study about women’s attraction or lack there of to bearded men. I’m not alone, and I’m laughing!

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Agreed, Fern! There are many Vermont men with big beards and many with stubble. Men follow fashions too!

I love the way that comments here lead off in other directions where I usually learn something. :)

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My 30 year old son has had a nicely trimmed beard on and off for years. He finally decided that maintaining one is just too much hassle and it’s better to shave every other day. With or without facial hair, he’s still a mighty handsome young man (mom humble brag 😉).

My husband has had a mustache his entire adult life, and after 38 years together, if he shaved it, I may not recognize him.

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I think any mother with a decent kid is entitled to brag about that kid.

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I’ve had a mustache since late 1968 or early 1969. Around 1973, I had a beard for about 6 months, before I got tired of fiddling with it. What I do not understand are guys who think that scruffy “beards” look good. My first thought is, “You need a new blade in your razor.”

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I think lazy aligned with "hot looking". Why grubby looks hot, I have no idea.

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Grubby is the perfect description! Either grow a beard (if you have to) or dont. But the "look"? Just appears un-washed!

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I hate to think of the bugs and food in those horrid long beards. I also wonder what they are hiding from?

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Aye. Another bearded one, in the 1960s-1970s, here. Long hair, beard down to me chest, and the requisite sweat shirt. Was quite a shock for the campus I would spent my career at where faculty wore white shirts, ties, and polished shoes even when off campus. What a giggle. Until I donned my tweads and went to interview in Arkansas, a state that prided its real men for their short hair and being clean shaved, and strong opinions about northerners, Blacks, and liberals. Maybe it was something to do with the recent integration of a public school by a little Black girl and all the ruckus she c (we?) Caused and not me personally. What a contrast with today. Hard to tell the faculty from the townies here or in Arkansas. Now, as a clean-shavened, short, old, White liberal it would be the bearded wonders who would be harassing me and, like then, not know a thing about me. As I recall, the one thing the long beard was good for was as a catcher for snacks to be found later at night. ;)

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Aye, brother Fred. Have you EVER considered tkaing your full name - I an hear it now .... "Frederick of Wisconsin!"

So true for you to name the irony, today, of youngins castings aspesions on oldsters of today (us!), when we casted ... So now, I hear my father when I state, "TURN DOWN tha-aaat horrible music!"

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😁

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😄😄😄

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Mike S ~ After months of silence on this board, I'm now shaken alive to comment, on your topic of facial hairs!

I joyfully remember more than a decade ago when a new hair stylist, in Maine yet, happened to be a young asylee from west Africa. She took the clippers to my neat, pony tail. I asked for the hair to be over over the collar. Well, she certainly knew better than to abide by my request .... !

When finished, i look at the close cropped wave of hair ABOVE the collar, and exclaimed, "That's it!" I always returned to this dear gal, until she moved on. "Oh, where are you now?" Then came the realization for my beard, and off it went ...

My "Don Johnson look" of an eight hour facial growth has been my personal trademark, along with the shorter wavey crop albeit a bit over the collar. And of course, a spritz of Channel Blue to add just a sweet waft 😃

How refreshing to reveal on a public board MY personal experience of grooming!

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Courageous, and I love it.

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I will pick this post to chime in on my GROOMING HISTORY. In the late '50s when my mustache sprouted & mom made me shave it off. (Warning: Mom's don't do that - I stayed in the bathroom holding the single edge razor blade contemplating wrist cutting for the longest before EMASCULATING my peach fuzz mustache). After basic training in the Air Force, 1963 I let the mustache grow and never shaved it since. By 1973, I let my full beard and hair go uncut (Hippy) and the beard has been with me this past half-century (The long hair went away by the late '70s, too much trouble).

IDK why ppl are posting about beards being too much trouble. To me having to shave every day was much more bothersome than letting my beard grow naturally. And, unlike my grandmother's advice that I would never get a girl if I didn't shave, I got plenty of girls & guys during the free luv days and a woman even shared her life with me since 1980 with my full brown beard showing in our wedding pic. As my profile pic here shows my beard is now white and in this century I even got approached by young men who were attracted to that.

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For the first ten years, my husband had a mustache and beard -- until the day he shaved it all off while I was away for the weekend. I came home and as I removed my bags from the car, I heard him call my name. I turned, but instead of my husband, I saw my father-in-law striding toward me. Undaunted by my obvious confusion (and alarm), he asked me what was wrong. I blurted out, "What happened?"

I'd never seen his naked face before that minute, and I wasn't sure I was a fan of the new look. When he didn't say anything, I went one step further. "If I'd been gone one day longer, would you have shaved your legs and arse, too?"

It took me months to get used to him being clean-shaven. He never grew facial hair again -- and this all happened 35 years ago.

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I had to constantly trim my beard to keep it looking good. It would have looked ratty and ragged had I not done so. (It's hard to see from your picture, but yours looks neatly trimmed as far as I can tell.)

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My head hair is half missing, so getting a haircut by barbers is a ripoff. I once even offered to pay half price but they wouldn't go for it. So I bought my own clippers and every month or so, I run the clippers over my entire head, trimming my hair & beard.

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Mike, I finally found something to disagree with you! When I was in my twenties, I was dating an older woman. In an effort to look more mature, I grew a beard. A nice, trim it once a week beard. The girl friend is long gone. But I still have the beard - half a century later. I have no idea what I would look like without it.

I agree that the Smith Bros look is silly. But guys who won the Civil War looked like that... to each his own.

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In my 20s I had an older lady friend, but still a security guard & later police patrolman so no beard, just the mustache which she seemed to like. Maybe it made me look older, but ppl still thot she was my mother. (She was 4 years older than my mother)

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How much older than you was your mother?

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guys who won the Civil War probably didn't have time to mess with their beards. On the other hand, men with beards generally look more unwelcoming and intimidating, and I doubt that any of the southern boys were shaving.

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On the topic of beards: Most of the guys in law enforcement (in my time, 1985-2021) would grow beards on their vacations, and even more would grow them in retirement. Most agencies had a "clean shaven, mustaches OK" policy. Then, some years back, "No Shave November" became a thing. My department decided that if men wanted to participate, they could "buy" their way into a beard by donating money to "Kids First" (our local facility that is set up for kids to be interviewed by trained, certified "kid focused" investigators that was in a kid-friendly environment.) In the past few years, several local agencies have permitted beards (well-trimmed, well groomed) full time. I still think it looks unprofessional, but that just makes me a "dinosaur".

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Back in about 1972, we took on the case of a cop who had been suspended for having hair that the chief deemed too long. We represented him for five or six years, until the US Supreme Court came down with a decision that a police department could impose some regulations about hair. Today, I doubt that any police department, at least in the northeast, where I am, would look twice at his hair length.

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Our department had a “grooming” policy. Close trimmed mustaches and hair above the collar for men, and no “extreme” hairstyles for women.

It so happened that my graveyard partner (and by that I mean he worked one side of the county and I worked the other; the Sarge stayed “central” as a cover officer) had both had our hair cut by his sister-in-law. Sarge looks at us and said “Olsen, your hair is too long. House, your hair is too short (our hair was close to identical length). At the time of my retirement, about half of male patrol officers were shaved heads.

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I had that military approved mustache in 1968 when I joined the Harbor Police Dept. in New Orleans. In the year that I worked there, I was starting to hang out with the counter-culture young ppl and had a mod wide-leather watch band, wore bell-bottom Levis off duty and let my sideburns creep down my cheek and maybe my hair snuck over my collar, until a Lt. told me it was too long. That was close to the time I was being admonished for being friends with a black patrolman and knew my time on the dept. was coming to an end. Next chapter "Turn On, Tune In, Drop Out."

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Wonder what would have happened if you'd shaved your head.

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I’m finally glad to hear Somone talk about the ridiculous bearding on men these days, especially actors. They look like an armpit with teeth in it.

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😎

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Good one, Mike! I, too, wonder about the prevalence of beards among American white men. Since the burly beards you mention are prevalent among the MAGA men, I think it must be a statement about raw masculinity. But there are civilized men who have beards, too. Some of them are sparse and thin. If someone is romantically attracted to one of these men, you have to imagine what lies beneath. IMO, none are attractive. They catch food and maybe other things. They are not very kissable. I hope the trend is over soon.

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I don't know where you are, Mike S, but I'm six miles west of Harvard Square, and I don't see much in the way of giant beards, or even substantial beards.

In my 30s I worked at a publication, and I had a (short) beard at that time. One evening I shaved it. The next day, when I came into work, I got complements from all but one of the women on my appearance. I was around half my present age, but I've never had a beard since.

I do have a friend in Arlington Virginia who thinks beards are absolutely wonderful, and tries to convince me to grow one again. Not gonna happen.

I've often wondered about the evolutionary pressures that maintain beards. The only thing I can think of, and I probably read it somewhere, is that a lot of men look more intimidating with beards. But it is interesting to me that beards are mostly absent among American Indians, and I envy them not having to shave.

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Sometimes I think at least some men grow beards because they can't grow hair on the top of their heads. Lol

It seems that being bald, or shaving your head, has become fairly popular with men. I don't know why. But I really don't get the popularity of beards. Some are quite attractive, but others just look scruffy and weird.

Are they trying to look like the patriarchs of old and subtly assert mastery over women as it was in the olden days?

Seems like right wingers and their Supreme Court Justices are going that way. No beards for Thomas, Alito or Kavanaugh though. 🤔

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A little linguistic correction here.

I have never willfully grown a beard.

The beard grew naturally on its own,

(spurred by testosterone in adolescence.)

I merely stopped shaving off this natural hair growth,

(Which identifies me as a mature male of our species.)

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🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

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What an evocative painting... perhaps the first example of conceptual art, mirrored today by the Sacklers missing from the walls of art museums (having been removed for their sculduggery).

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The Colonial Ghost.

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I shared this to FB with the following-

I sat here on January 14th just blocks from the Maryland State House where the Treaty of Paris was ratified by 9 of the 13 states 245 years ago. I was not taught how hard people had to work to gain permission from the world to remain independent long enough to cobble together enough unity to assemble the civil agreements that became our constitution. I was too young and inexperienced to retain it anyway. Today I am humbled and grateful to all who contributed to this great event and to Ms. Richardson for this article. Because I learned to read in public schools. Once you can read, you can learn and relearn, because knowledge, understanding and experience do not grow up hand in hand.

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Yes, Penny! Your statement is profound. Especially your gratitude to Professor Richardson and this: “... Because I learned to read in public schools...” Public schools attempted to level the fields of knowledge and “intelligence.” It’s often now a political tool and battle of omission and religion. Charters, supported by taxpayers, that are dedicated to bias and distortion, perhaps accomplishing the opposite of the eventual intent of “public schools.” Although the Bible was one of the early readers. The idea of separation of Church and State is still controversial. But your statement shows the potential of public schools. Today our knowledge and attention and bias contribute to the debate. And as I write this, I think about education worldwide. Often females are excluded or religious schools are the only source of education. Or families cannot afford tuition or Children must work to contribute to family expenses. Much to think about. And history is part of the equation.

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Yes fascinating guess it was always a bit messy not at all how we were told in school

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Jan 15, 2023·edited Jan 15, 2023

Wow. One of the most amazing endings ever in Letters From An American series. The “half” painting speaks volumes. And one can be easily crafted today. I leave that idea to everyone’s Sunday imagination. Who, oh who, will be missing subjects in a modern day rendition?

Salud.

🗽

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Read some of her books!

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My sentiments exactly!!!! I am an old fart but I still remember some of my US History classes. Apparently I slept through that lesson (Treaty of Paris an all that led up to it, and after). More likely, it was touched on, while I along with half the class was engaged in clandestine rubber band fights or some such thing. It could be that a high school level US history class just cannot get into the weeds very much; that is for college history majors. But man - context is everything. Vital for a full understanding of what this nation is. It is so very lacking, especially among our political opponents. What a great history lesson today.

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Totally agree, Nickie. Every column I read by Heather makes me wonder what we studied in school…and I thought I had a solid education of American history.

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I was carried back with your descriptions to that time. Amazing to think about the frigid winter and the difficult journey between England and the new country, ours. I loved your final comment about the Brits refusing to pose for the painting to memorialize our freedom and the historic Treaty....and thus it was only half-finished by the artist. Heather, you are an awesome historian, teacher and have become a “friend” to thousands of your readers. Thank you for being so wonderful!

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My applause resonates thru the halls of home in honor of dear Heather. Keep on keeping on, young lady!

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Yes yes ditto🙏🙏

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What Elizabeth said.

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Treaty of Paris by Benjamin West (1783), Winterthur Museum, Winterthur, Delaware, image in public domain. This is the American delegation; the British delegation refused to pose for the painter, who could not complete the work.] “ thank you for posting this image .

American democracy is much like this unfinished painting waiting to be worked on by those who stand in the light of justice and the rule of law, even as muddy as it gets. Much has been gained and lost over the years. There is still much work to do if this great experiment is to hold, not only for this country, but for those who believe in humanity’s best efforts to save itself.

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"American democracy is much like this unfinished painting waiting to be worked on by those who stand in the light of justice and the rule of law, even as muddy as it gets. Much has been gained and lost over the years. There is still much work to do if this great experiment is to hold, not only for this country, but for those who believe in humanity’s best efforts to save itself."

Best quote of the month award!!! (such as it is).

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Elaine, appreciate your pointing out the history and artist. LOL I was looking at it thinking 'huh, pretty good artist where did they find this guy at a moment's notice'? West was American but living in England at time war broke out, "(w)hen the American Revolution broke out in 1776 he remained ambivalent, and neither spoke out for or against the Revolutionary War in his land of birth." So how does West just happen to drop into the negotiations in Paris and why would the British not sit for him given that he was King George's 'historical painter to the court'?

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West was well-connected in England , one of the most popular society painters and a friend of the king. So he was well versed in talking up a new painting. But he was also friends with Benjamin Franklin, and had plans for this painting to be the first in a series on the Revolution which he would, no doubt, exhibit in prominent places. I can imagine the British representative, Oswald, scowling at the idea of sitting for this "propaganda" that would tie him to England's loss for the ages.

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Elaine, I have included your quote - with your name on a repost. This is so important for others to know. Thank you.

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'in Order to form a more perfect Union..."

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Thank you for this wonderful history lesson! I wonder how much the travel times - within North America and also to Europe and England - allowed for thoughtful, civil, and responsible deliberations by the negotiators. No social media, Fox News, or AI algorithms to mess it all up. Whew!

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Yes! Overcoming natural occurring hardships have a knack for keeping folks grounded in reality!

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❗️ ❗️ ❗️

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So interesting about how the 13 colonies became independent and how they almost didn’t. The fact that their last representative who had been ill, showed up to sign the treaty, has a strong resemblance to the recent Dems’ House member, David Trone. Trone had surgery and rushed back to the House to cast his vote for Hakeem Jeffries. I guess when there’s a will, there’s a way. I just wish we had more Dems in the House.

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And don't forget John McCain who raced back to D.C., just days after finding out that he had terminal brain cancer, to cast the deciding vote for "Obamacare".

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Yes, who could forget that momentous day!!

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❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

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The balance of dems to repubs will shift back. It always does, and especially now that the midterms are over and repubs will show that they don't know how to govern.

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The most horrific quote I read recently was McCarthy's, ¨after this (the 15 times it took to become Speaker), we now no how to govern.¨

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Your misprint is so eloquent!

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McCarthy's freshman orientation as a House member must have been before January 7, 2007. I suppose 16 years is a long time to try to remember how (or that) the US government works.

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They truly have never learned, and this must become a prerequisite - along with a long list of changes that need to be made before anyone runs.

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McCarthy took office on Jan. 3, 2007 -- but the dysfunction of the U.S. government, especially the House, goes back further than that. Take a good look at what went down in the '90s under Newt Gingrich.

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One of my personal frustration with Gingrich in the '90s came with a phone call at work. I was an engineering manager dealing with plants around the world when the call came in. Some one had given the company phone book to the GOP, this was a major no-no as it was considered proprietary. Gingrich wanted money. I think the caller was rather surprised at the language I used, having learned it working heavy construction for a number of years. I never got another call.

.

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Patience!

Of course, it took time learning how to ensure that the US government does not and cannot work.

Time and an ego like an interplanetary boa constrictor, capable of ingurgitating worlds and all that in them is.

Nevertheless, the impatient greed of the want-it-all-NOW Fcaucus did give it indigestion... and made it promise them to take their emetic and cough it all up whenever ordered to do so.

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Had to stop eating my breakfast...but.....great image, Peter!!!

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I love the moments in history that you describe in such detail. Moments we never learned about in history classes have shaped our government, alliances, and character. Thank you!

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Frighteningly stupid. And it won't have won Jordan to his side.

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Yes, the party of no.

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The original was one of the great non sequiturs of the century!

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Speed the day. Right now all they're showing is viciousness.

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Matt Fulkerson, the, Repubs have lost their way. I am looking for the establishment of a new party with people who care about governance and actually have read and studied the documents that hold our country together. People who really care about governance more than the opportunity for publicity and a following of "no" minded people like themselves.

Self-serving opportunities....are no way to lead this country.

"Too many foxes in the chicken house!"

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https://constitutioncenter.org/news-debate/podcasts/the-history-of-the-speaker-of-the-house. Fascinating review of prominent Speakers of the House across our history on this podcast. Speakers like Clay, Reed (sp?), Cannon, Gingrich and Pelosi, all put a unique spin on the role - including Cannon's punishing uncooperative House members by putting them on the Acoustics Committee...

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I found this extremely interesting and informative. Takes an hour. If you haven't got an hour, listen to the last ten minutes.

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Jan 16, 2023·edited Jan 16, 2023

Thank you for this! I've added We the People and National Constitution Center to my Spotify.

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I’m mostly taken with the underlying reasons for personal sacrifice of all the early delegates and our modern Patriots like Trone and McCain. They set aside differences of opinion of their states and political beliefs to ensure the Public Good, of a United States, would prevail.

That dedication to common principles is obviously absent in the 118th Congress.

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Art, thank you....the perfect words filling my mind and heart....true Patriots. As I have shared before, there are other Patriots who quietly, steadily and faithfully, with brillance, good character and determination work to preserve the honorable qualities this country has exemplified as we strive for a "more perfect union". They serve within our country and without in many various areas.

I am grateful without being naive.....knowing that our country has also participated in destruction of human life, ie wars, theft of native lands, misuse of our National Parks, witholding rights of people of color and even today, the disrespectful treatment of women and others.

I am grateful without being blind....we still need warriors for good....to rebuild crumbling foundations. THANK YOU HEATHER!!!

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On the Repub side only. The Dems are exhibiting a lot of dedication to the Public Good

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Will you ever see the likes of that again?

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Heather, I’m a 71 year old man, with a college degree (2 year criminal justice) and I can honestly tell you that I don’t ever remember this being taught in school from elementary all the way through. We had American History, but I didn’t have anything like this.

This is quite interesting and I really appreciate you bringing this out and ‘teaching’ all of us a part of this country’s history.

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The history I remember felt more mythological than relatable, and the focus seemed to be the memorization of names and dates that I, for the most part, promptly forgot, to the extent I ever knew them.

But who doesn't like a good story? And this a chapter in the story of how now came to be.

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Absolutely. Memorize for the exam and immediately forget it because the instructor next year has an entirely different way to teach it. The textbooks were written in such a manner as not to upset any culture, race, ethnicity, or anyone else. Rather ‘bland’ writing. Definitely boring reading back then for sure.

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Dates! Always dates!!!

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Yes and who remembers any of them now? It's the drama and human element that makes this story more compelling and memorable.

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Dates -- 1919 - an important date - passage of the 19th amendment. (and I am male). Women could vote !! God help us if women didn't have the vote today.

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What's amazing is that so many women vote Republican a party that hasn't been all that friendly to women. But, yes it would be a very different landscape if women were still chattel.

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That is how history should be taught , as a story. It is after all, part of the word.

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I think you'd enjoy the more-than-usually-excellent treatment of the word "history" on Online Etymology Dictionary (https://www.etymonline.com/word/history). I knew that "history" and "story" have a common source that traces back via Old French to ancient Greek, but I hadn't been aware of Greek "histōr", meaning 'knowing, expert; witness', which very much describes our peerless guide.

History is the world's longest-running, juiciest, and most heartbreaking soap opera, and it's (mostly) not even fictional.

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Thank you so much for that reference. I am a retired museum professional, and I have always used the "history=story" mantra in my work. It is such a shame that the word "history" has been relegated to the "boring" column, because if it is taught as a never-ending story, it is fascinating (to me, anyway).

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Back in the 1950s, my mother and father, or often my mother alone, would often take me me to museums, which back then were very cheap or free entertainment. Because of the Great Depression, neither of my parents were college educated, but both were very curious and well read, and helped me understand the significance of what I saw. The exhibits, art, science, history, were sort of a reverse treasure hunt, Sherlock Holmesian puzzle pieces from which understanding of what was and is can be derived. There is something impactful about a real hunk of dinosaur, or the the actual "Christina's World" (that painting and it's significance left an indelible impression on me from a very young age) or primitive tool that was once a part of life, broadened the boundaries of my perceptive bubble. I believe that museums and exhibits are powerful educational and experiential resources, for which I am grateful. I also believe that vastly more interpretive signage and/or barcodes should be posted throughout our environment.

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Interpretation is the key. Facts, or artifacts, for that matter, mean little without explanation, relating them to the story being told.

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You're most welcome, Kathleen. I'm always glad to share the Online Etymology Dictionary; initials notwithstanding, it's not affiliated with the other OED, but the etymologies neatly summarize what's known without overstating what's speculative.

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The format of museums can also be an tool of pointed humor, as in this spoof:

https://djtrumplibrary.com/

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You'd be hard pressed to make up some of what's happening now.

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Certainly a route through a reasonable understanding of how something occurred. Without that thread of connection, historical factoids are as useful as being taught the mass of an electron without a grasp of the physics.

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Gosh folks, I WAS taught this in school, though not about the painting. At 63 I have to wonder whether my knowledge came from school or from being raised in Richmond, Va. with numerous trips to Jamestown, Yorktown and Williamsburg, thanks to school and my parents. I found it all fascinating and pursued studies later in college. When my daughter came along I have to admit she struggled at her studies. Nothing “caught fire”. Of course by that time (she’s 29) she was being taught to the test. Truly I think testing standards are killing intellectual curiosity.

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And killing intellectual curiosity just may be the real purpose of the educational "reforms" of the past 40 years...

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Corporate business wants interchangeable, disposable robots, be they silicon and hydraulics based, or "muscle and blood"; and 40 years is about how long we have lived in the shadow of the "Reagan Revolution".

“I must study Politics and War that my sons may have liberty to study Mathematics and Philosophy.”

– John Adams, letter to Abigail Adams, May 12, 1780.

Also

"Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you. " - Pericles

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My daughter's college offered some just-for-fun week-long summer classes (which the do no longer) for whomever. It was an interesting crowd that showed up for this, a number of professors and a scattering of politicians and other walks of life. I took one class in local geology, which being mountainous, glacial, and volcanic, was in your face in all directions. On the field trips we took, the tutor began the classes with the phrase "What do you notice"? There was no shortage of things to talk about. Then "How do you think it got that way"? Instant engagement.

A phase I used to hear more of in public discussion was "science literacy", national surveys of which have tended to be depressing. It occurred to me that while "literacy" is a great metaphor, their yardstick I see used might not be the best rule. Literacy is not knowing about language, but the incorporated facility to communicate, with originating and receptive, with written language; and that tests might not so much chart one's ability to think and understand scientifically, but to only describe this. It's like knowing all the sports stats but never thrown a ball.

We think of the brain as our seat of knowledge, but the nervous system extends thought the body, and no, its not just a CPU with sensors sending bits, although there are some aspects that are a reasonable analogy. I believe that without leaning into woo woo, we learn with our whole body, and with our whole experience. Online learning has it's uses, as does quiet contemplation, but it's not being there and doing it, which I think prepares the mind (traveling alongside a beam of light for example) to project beyond a possible experience. Tests measure something but they miss a lot.

And, because I think AND feel, see, hear, taste, smell, and self-reflect, I am. The arts, which to me are as valuable to human exploration of the EXPERIENCE of existence as the sciences, are also furthered by experiential learning. Human consciousness is by nature constructive, interactive, and creative, and evidence and logic keeps it honest.

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I like the way you think.

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Beautifullly said. Embracing and warm, not rigid and aloof. Thank you.

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I have a special experience in this. In 1957 I got an early discharge to attend college.

I decided to take History and after introductory courses my advisor encouraged me to take a 4 hour course geared for educators that focused on original documentation.

A much smaller class than the parallel American history class we learned to research and study the whereabouts and significance of documents leading to and resulting from historical events.

My point is this is the form of historical studies should be the basis of any history. Dr Richardson demonstrates this important basis for understanding our past each day with each essay.

Why such endeavor is not incorporated into normal education disappoints me.

The History Timelines can be condensed into a single page but the documents of those events are the real history. Even incomplete paintings express volumes.

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"Even incomplete paintings express volumes. "

Perhaps more than had the painting been completed. My college was the result of several University of Chicago professors transferring the Robert Maynard Hutchins "Great Books" program to a small Midwestern campus, at which we primarily studied (for the first two years) original source material, often beginning with ancient Greeks*. Just reading old books and papers could be as dry as dust, but we were expected to analyze and comment on these "seminal" writings in round (actually rectangular) table discussions. We even read thoughts that were once persuasive yet since discredited; from which I gained an understanding of how even the "wrong" idea, approached analytically and creatively, can be a stepping stone to a better one. While I see what we were doing as "a" fruitful approach, though not the only one, we were gaining a visceral sense of the evolution of contemporary thought.

Reliable history records the patterns we observe of how reality has behaved in the past, from protons to politicians, and that includes anything that follows this very moment. It's the best tool we have to grasp the circumstances of the moment we are in, and the moments that we might anticipate, with better than random guesswork, that are most likely to follow; our future.

* Our limited studies of the seminal thoughts of ancient Greeks was too Euro-centric, but wow, what some of them worked out with the tools then available remains astonishing.

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Daniel,

None of this stuff was taught in college or high school.

Honestly, I think the people writing the educational text books do not know these historical gems. They are probably more schooled in administration, currying favor, getting money, and politics than in history.

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Texas writes all the books, whitewashing as they go.

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Literally whitewashing, by removing anything that might reflect badly on the dominant (White) culture.

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Exactly. And this whitewashing is doing nothing but ruining our upcoming generations, keeping ‘racism’ alive and well, and not teaching anything about the true history of our country, or world.

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Texas is real good about that. But then again, look at the government they have running the state.

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Listen to the “Teaching Texas” podcast. :(

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I agree. Nowadays if what’s written in the textbooks isn’t at the agreement of the state’s governor, he’ll have them pulled. Case in point: Florida. DeStupid just had textbooks removed from the classroom for an abundance of reasons. One, if memory serves me correctly, something to do with the Civil War. Can’t you imagine him being our next President. Our children in schools across the country will be refused to learn whatever he doesn’t want them to learn.

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Would it shake your faith in the US educational system to know that almost all of our public school text books are published in Texas of all places? If it doesn’t, it should.

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It’s rather scary actually. Listen to the podcast, “Teaching Texas”. :(

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Honestly, nothing about this educational system today surprises me anymore.

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❗️ ❗️ ❗️

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It should also be noted that, pursuant to Article VII of the Treaty of Paris, the British were precluded from “carrying away any negroes or other property of the American inhabitants.” This provision, which was inserted into the Treaty at the insistence of the American treaty negotiators, led to concerted efforts for the return of the many thousands of slaves who had escaped to the British during the American Revolution. However, these efforts were rebuffed by the British who claimed that the slaves who had accepted British protection before the 1783 treaty was signed were not covered by Article VII. The British facilitated safe haven for these escaped slaves in places such as England, Nova Scotia, and Sierra Leone, a colony established on the west African coast. With the signing of a treaty in November 1794 to resolve various outstanding issues between the United States and Great Britain in November 1794, efforts by the United States to obtain compensation in lieu of the return of escaped slaves were also abandoned. In a debate on the 1794 treaty in the House of Representatives on 15 April 1796, James Madison complained that its result was that Great Britain was “wholly absolved from the obligation to fulfil one of the articles [of the Treaty of Paris of 1783], viz: that relating to the negroes.” He also complained about the “very extraordinary abandonment of the compensation due for the negroes.” For Madison, these matters meant that the treaty was “frequently wanting in both justice and reciprocity.”

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Jan 15, 2023·edited Jan 15, 2023

Peter, thank you for your explanation and history of the negotiations for slaves. Makes me think how fragile ideas, laws, religious and political beliefs are in determining our lives. Do we go left or right? What if at that time, Slavery had been outlawed? If enslaved people were not considered less than fully human beings, but included as full American citizens and women were also considered full citizens. That’s one of the values of History. To look back and forward.

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I have repeatedly wondered how different America would be if slavery had been outlawed in the Constitution or if anything like America could have occurred without gross injustice and conquest. I can only speculate.

And yes, the longer I live the more I realize that what makes life worth living is fragile if reasonably resilient, and the the best of what we have created as a species, and what enjoy by virtue of being part of this planet, is fragile and worthy of much more appreciation and care.

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Yes, JL. Fragile. “...what enjoy by virtue of being part of this planet, is fragile...” beautiful.

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Yet, as it is now, greed was the only reason that slavery was not outlawed. Noble sentiments were expressed in all of the documents written by the our "Founding Fathers", but they did not extend to slaves. (Won't go into women here.)

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It's complicated, but certainly the founding of the US has a Jekyll/Hyde nature to it. I have thought about four major poisons of reason and compassion, which are greed, fear, hate, and hubris, although there could easily be more lucid ways to think about it. All four of these proclivities are natural and perhaps essential components of human nature that can be observed to veto reason and conscience, the whole MAGA phenomenon replete with striking examples. To varying degrees, these same traits appear to render people vulnerable to manipulation, such as union members who gleefully support Republicans. I am inclined to attribute all of it to unbalanced ego.

When my preferences "TR#%P" your human rights my behavior is at the least obnoxious, and at worst, truly evil. We all, of necessity, pursue self interest, but grossly irresponsible or predatory self interest, and the urge to dominate, has been and remains humanity's glaring tragic flaw, and potential route to our own extinction.

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A truly brilliant reply! Thank you. "Unbalanced ego", well said. (Problem is that a lot of the maggots are sans ego. They're pure id -- e.g., the orange sadist, georgie porgie santos, and many, many more.) Love your name for the O.S.!

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Jan 15, 2023·edited Jan 15, 2023

Wow. Peter, thank you.

Highlighting how our founding fathers prioritized slavery and humans as property is totally awesome since one the things the Founding Fathers bequeathed to us is a society based on white supremacy that has heavily trodden onto generations of dark skinned Americans leaving them in great poverty and hardship.

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Your comment conscientized me to my ignorance of the history of slavery. Not comprehending that Britain could offer freedom to slaves living in the nascent republic, I had to search for more information. Doing so has left me in tears and psychic pain and a further realization of why it’s much easier to never know our putrid past. “Britain’s involvement in the transatlantic slave trade officially began, with royal approval, in 1663. In less than 150 years, Britain was responsible for transporting millions of enslaved Africans to colonies in the Americas, where men, women and children were forced to work on plantations and denied basic rights. This inhumane system led to the emergence of racist ideas and pseudoscience that were used to justify it.” https://www.bl.uk/restoration-18th-century-literature/articles/abolition-of-the-slave-trade-and-slavery-in-britain

Some other commenter has elevated the ability to read and the curiosity to do so today. Despite my placing the highest value on curiosity and reading and imparting those values to successive generations, in today’s environment of easy entertainment, I need help. The GOP are anti-the truth, and no help at all.

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That is a great link, thank you!

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❤️❤️❤️ Heather and her readers leading us to increasing knowledge like horses to a watering trough. Hope you have a wonderful day Ally!

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Really informative. Thank you.

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The American stance: sickening.

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Oh thank you for this Peter.

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This is a great book recounting the economic eight ball southerners faced, as well as an accounting of those who escaped servitude. Highly recommend. https://www.amazon.com/Internal-Enemy-Slavery-Virginia-1772-1832/dp/039334973X

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Peter, I included your quote acknowledging you in a repost. So important to know.

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Well said, sir. Thank you!

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My K-12 history units never taught me that the American Revolution was part of a more complicated global picture than us and Great Britain. ( Or I have forgotten all of it) Of course it makes sense such would be the case. Thank you for the lessons!

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Reality is context within context, within context, and so on. We wrap it up at the point we get tired.

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My, J.L. Graham, you've just written words worth framing and hanging on the wall!

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Or that the pain of it becomes too much to bear.

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That too. I am all too familiar with the urge to look away from painful realities. I think one of the pillars of successful social movements is to skillfully and persistently keeps painful;-to-acknowledge stuff in our face.

Beyond that is the seemingly impressive, yet severe, limits of human perception and cognition. At base, the scientific method is a workaround to extend those limits in very useful ways, yet although I think that science can help inform virtually all of our decisions, it cannot, in at least in many respects, make our decisions for us. I suspect that that the foundation of wisdom includes abiding awareness of our own limitations.

The entire universe is, as the name implies, all one thing, and what we had for breakfast an extended part of continuing unfolding of the Big Bang; but we can only hold so much awareness (not all that much) in our human nervous system, and sensing what is likely most "relevant" to keep track of is, I suspect, another component of wisdom.

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That and growing up in a home where you have the guidance and support for healthy processing of feelings. An area where “privilege” is frequently not recognized is the benefits of growing up in a stable and nurturing environment. It makes a world of difference in how well we cope.

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Hmmmm... as a retired 5th grade teacher, I remember TEACHING this stuff. I wonder what happened to the STUFF I taught.

Interestingly, just yesterday, I was talking to my 10 year old grandson, and he was describing how Washington crossed the Delaware River and surprised the Hessians on that Christmas long ago. It was even pointed out to him in that very famous painting of the crossing that a Black man is portrayed as one rowing the boat. (Prince Whipple - a freed slave, supposedly.). He is looking forward to studying about Yorktown soon because his Great x6 grandfather was part of the “forlorn hope” that stormed and took Redoubt No. 10. (You can either look this up or listen to the section In “Hamilton” called “The World Turned Upside Down.)

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Because of the testing here in FL we have a watered down version of all American History and Civics. I know because I have taught both subjects in this state for many years. Teach to the test and not so much else. However I always try to slip in extra information like Heathers info when I can.

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Yes, exactly, Maria!! “slip in extra information like Heathers info”. It’s what good teachers do.

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Just don’t do it the day you’re being observed!

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On parent's night my daughter's high school biology teacher explained why he was taking a brief side trip into chemistry with the students, which was a departure from "standards". He believed that you needed at least an inkling of chemistry to grasp what he was supposed to teach.

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You have your “Esteemed” Governor Ron DeSantis to than for the ‘watered down’ version of American History. And, hopefully he’ll nit get word of any of these good teachers and educators that are teaching the real truth about the History. Hell have them jailed. It’s what he does. The “POS!”

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And good students.

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Paul in Palatine, as a history major and as a constant student of history.....thank you for sharing. I am so happy for you that you can share your love of history with your grandson....what joy!

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Jan 15, 2023·edited Jan 15, 2023

Yorktown (The World Turned Upside Down)

Song by Original Broadway Cast of Hamilton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQt1RRW_xv0

LyricsListenVideos

The battle of Yorktown, 1781

Monsieur Hamilton

Monsieur Lafayette

In command where you belong

How you say, no sweat

Finally on the field, we've had quite a run

Immigrants, we get the job done

So what happens if we win?

I go back to France

I bring freedom to my people

If I'm given the chance

We'll be with you when you do

Go lead your men

I see you on the other side

'Til we meet again, let's go!

I am not throwin' away my shot!

I am not throwin' away my shot!

Hey yo, I'm just like my country

I'm young scrappy and hungry

And I'm not throwin' away my shot!

I am not throwin' away my shot!

'Til the world turns upside down

'Til the world turns upside down!

I imagine death so much, it feels more like a memory

This is where it gets me, on my feet the enemy ahead of me

If this is the end of me, at least I have a friend with me

Weapon in my hand, a command, and my men with me

Then I remember my Eliza's expecting me

Not only that, my Eliza's expecting

We gotta go, gotta get the job done

Gotta start a new nation, gotta meet my son!

Take the bullets out your gun! (What?)

The bullets out your gun! (What?)

We move undercover and we move as one

Through the night, we have one shot to live

Another day

We cannot let a stray gunshot give us away

We will fight up close, seize the moment and stay in it

It's either that or meet the business end of a bayonet

The code word is "Rochambeau", dig me? (Rochambeau!)

You have your orders now, go, man, go!

And so the American experiment begins

With my friends all scattered to the winds

Laurens is in South Carolina, redefining bravery

We'll never be free until we end slavery!

When we finally drive the British away

Lafayette is there waiting in Chesapeake Bay!

How did we know that this plan would work?

We had a spy on the inside, that's right

Hercules Mulligan!

A tailor spyin' on the British government!

I take their measurements, information and then I smuggle it! (Up)

To my brother's revolutionary covenant

I'm runnin' with the Sons of Liberty and I am lovin' it!

See, that's what happens when you up against the ruffians

We in the shit now, somebody gotta shovel it!

Hercules Mulligan, I need no introduction

When you knock me down I get the fuck back up again!

Left! Right! Hold!

Go!

What! What! What!

After a week of fighting, a young man in a red coat stands on a parapet

We lower our guns as he frantically waves a white handkerchief

And just like that, it's over, we tend to our wounded, we count our dead

Black and white soldiers wonder alike if this really means freedom

Not yet

We negotiate the terms of surrender

I see George Washington smile

We escort their men out of Yorktown

They stagger home single file

Tens of thousands of people flood the streets

There are screams and church bells ringing

And as our fallen foes retreat

I hear the drinking song they're singing

The world turned upside down

The world turned upside down

The world turned upside down

The world turned upside down

Down, down, down, down

Freedom for America, freedom for France!

Down, down, down

Gotta start a new nation, gotta meet my son

Down, down, down

We won!

We won!

We won!

We won!

The world turned upside down!

Source: Musixmatch

Songwriters: Lin-manuel Miranda

Yorktown (The World Turned Upside Down) lyrics © 5000 Broadway Music

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If only history would be taught more creatively in the public schools.

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Just a quickie: My great x4 grandfather was a 19 year old soldier at Yorktown (and part of the “forelorn hope.). “Rochambeau” was the signal, but was commonly understood as “Rush on, boys!”

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Great song!

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Just incredible!! And as I watched the play I wished I was closer to the words. Even sitting in the nosebleed seats it was...brilliant!!

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Miranda should be an American history professor. His lyrics are so educational. For months I cd in car radio so I could hear every word.

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The history of the US is so amazing! How little we the people, all tied up in our getting thru our daily lives, know about what happend way back then. Think, if you will, a head 50 or 75 years and consider how much of the present time, today's government, the list of men (and we hope soon women) who made the decisions and wrote the legislation will be known. Sad, for me, to say I won't be around 50 years from now but I'd like to come back to see what the presidential historians have to say and what is being taught to the students of the Class of 2073.

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And the text hopefully of how it will be taught will come from Letters from an American

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And teaching Critical Race Theory and the 1619 Project will be just part of the Truth and Justice foundation of History.

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Oh, me too, Bill! On the other hand, I've very frequently wondered what it is we're doing now that we perceive as progressive and best practice that will look barbaric 100 years from now. There's always something!

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Certainly the curve will bend towards progressive inclusion! That’s what GenZ is all about and successive generations. Too bad we won’t live to see its fruition, assuming of course that they will be able to overcome climate disaster. I will soon have my friends Bill Toone and Suni Black propose a spectacular low cost plan they are working on to accomplish real climate improvements and I will give you all links to it!

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Bill, hang in there as we will need you then too!

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Oh my gosh!!! This was absolutely incredible for me ~ I can’t tell you how much I learned in such a brilliantly concise recounting of the Ratification.

Thank you, thank you for lifting my spirits on a night of unceasing rain in the Sierra foothills of California ~ which of course was not yet a gleam in the eye of the new republic…

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Lorri, hope you continue to be safe. I’m in the Sierras with you and we still have more storms coming. We will honor MLK at the annual march and program at our Town Hall, on Monday, rain or shine. Think of the hardships and challenges our founding fathers and mothers endured for freedom and Justice. And how that struggle continues to this day. That’s why we honor those before us. Thank you , Professor Richardson, for today’s history lesson, so relevant to our nation today. Onward!

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Onward, Irenie!! ♥️

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Lorri, stay dry and safe! I just saw a tweet from your Governor thanking Biden for helping the stricken areas. Thank god we have Biden and not Dump....

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Thank you, Elisabeth! I’m very grateful for our Governor and our President ~ things are very challenging right now for Californians, but this is a resilient and beautiful state and I believe we’ll come through this time with ideas and plans for how to capture the rain that is now running into the Pacific. Live and learn!

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I hope you and yours get through these "atmospheric rivers" OK.

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This is the first that either I or my husband have heard how close the US came to not being. I can’t help thinking of the past two weeks and whether those representatives could have agreed quickly enough. In our history courses, the struggles after the battles were ignored. Thank you for filling in the gaps with prose equal to that of the best novels.

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Actually, I was lying here thinking just the opposite. I’m thinking that’s there’s no way this country would come to bring if this House of Representatives/Congress had to agree on anything with this. There’s no way in two hells this bunch would get it done. Not in this day and age.

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From left to right: John Jay, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Henry Laurens, and William Temple Franklin.

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I looked up WT Franklin. "Temple", as he was called (to distinguish him from his father, "William") was Ben Franklin's (twice) illegitimate grandson. He was only 23 years old when he went to France for negotiations!

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Who was Henry Laurens?

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Wiki: "Henry Laurens (March 6, 1724 – December 8, 1792) was an American Founding Father, merchant, slave trader, and rice planter from South Carolina who became a political leader during the Revolutionary War. A delegate to the Second Continental Congress, Laurens succeeded John Hancock as its president. He was a signatory to the Articles of Confederation and, as president, presided over its passage." (He became enormously wealthy through slave-trading here in Charleston, SC. A street near our house is named for him.)

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The only Revolutionary Wr era fort in what is now Ohio is named for him. Fort Laurens was to have been a supply depot for an aborted attack on the British at Fort Detroit in Michigan.

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Yorktown (The World Turned Upside Down)

Original Broadway Cast of Hamilton

Provided to YouTube by Atlantic Records

Yorktown (The World Turned Upside Down) · Original Broadway Cast of Hamilton

Hamilton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQt1RRW_xv0

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Jan 15, 2023·edited Jan 15, 2023

Fern, Thank you for the link to Hamilton’s “The World Turned Upside Down” “I’m Not Giving Away My Shot.” I sat in the second row for the live Broadway performance and I must have memorized the play. Unforgettable. I loved how the Hamilton cast performed at the Whitehouse. It’s brilliant. And the later discussions about the role Slavery played in Society. Here’s “One Last Time” for President Obama. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uV4UpCq2azs

Here is President Obama thanking the cast after this ending song. https://youtu.be/1R5dKwvtjlg

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Excellent, these links wonderfully extend this Ratification Day in America. Thank you, Irenie.

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Fern, I so appreciate that you posted Hamilton. I’m not sure I would have without your meaningful choices. That’s one of the true strengths of our conversations through our posting

and Heather’s analysis of politics and connection to history.

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Irenie, I am smiling. That's another aspecct of being together..

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Fern, that’s “wavelengths.”

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Now, you make it much wider, filled to the brim.

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We got to go see Hamilton here in Eugene when a traveling cast came through. We'd watched the televised recording of Hamilton when it was on for free, and I would go watch it again in a heart beat. Such a powerful performance.

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Ally, yes a powerful performance! Especially because it traveled and opened up a national conversation. Maybe International. I remember the criticism that there wasn’t enough attention to the concerns of Slavery. But those were the times and research will show that behind the scenes that was debated. This play is a great example as “Art for Social Change.”

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Thank you for these links Irenie! A great way to start my day! And such a bonus after Heather’s Letter this morning!

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Yes, this was a bonus. And thank Fern for first sharing the Hamilton scene and song and opening the conversation. “Together we can!” “Yes We Can.” Cesar Chavez and President Obama. The choices in society to “do good” or “do harm.”

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❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

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Thank you, Fern and Irenie, for these links! Gives me renewed hope for our country.

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You make me hopeful, Lynell, and your comments are full of information, hope and often, with delight.

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Fascinating. I never knew why one side of the painting was white.

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Isn't it marvellous? It speaks as clearly as words.

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Jan 15, 2023·edited Jan 15, 2023

Dr. Richardson.

Now, THIS history article is home run writing. Absolutely no doubt.

Thank you ever so much for taking the time to educate.

PS - I saw an article in the NY Times by another historian, Daniel Bessner, that might interest you, and everyone here on this reflector. Given that I discouraged my own son from pursuing a history degree (and recommended engineering), I guess, in a small way, I contributed to the problem, however, reading Daniel's essay yesterday I felt good that my son redirected to Mechanical Engineering.

It sounds like Academia is using outsourcing of poorly paid "adjuncts" much like American corporations use India and China, so that, of course, white male administrators can obtain giant bonuses while history education declines and falls.

Same exact thing is happening in engineering and software in big corporations, on a scale akin to slavery where work is outsourced to India and China, but, no worries, a very small number of fairly incompetent white men are getting gigantic bonuses on these outsourcing strategies so it's all good right?

NY Times Gift Link: On the sad state of historians in the US

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/14/opinion/american-history-college-university-academia.html?unlocked_article_code=_aRLM7A3IT-Mh12zXL0Di_-sZBIAzXq1AidGMeeuqTxQDKZfSjUaOYCY_90AxVN6Cb4erS6nsHqXp4rjYuCB-7noBFARWU6OshSrXqMmmWwP9UYQjtFFad0IMi-Dr9OkfAZmMtOmXrfjfdmmSQkfjaWu28JZfjzat0zB5UK_IQmKYVcvDfJvNJZvYwIpsWL6_QvZEA3lnMvKXcM-GTmt1ZfP6w2MEBUuOfUhbgGHKftrOTIIxxnuvqNfg9hk2bUIQ0ZG39FiKN_GjhiadskQPv_l3lneMus4ATvCKhBiQl2J9xhmq1wdCcrsgz7p9ZnkkILtSmm-I2f3jnk0gw6Db61mlsDP25cDu3Ca2KbCpcTLOcbe60M&smid=share-url

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Thank you for gifting & sharing

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Jan 15, 2023·edited Jan 15, 2023

No problem.

The story resonated with me because my son, in high school, had a great history teacher and wanted to follow that a bit. Perhaps inappropriately, I had "steered" him toward engineering and more vocational employment. I am an engineer. I greatly enjoyed about half my career which is nearly 20 years. But, I got paid enough to live.

Teachers in NY are not poor, but, especially recent teachers, get paid dirt. Back in the day they were paid well and got 100% of pay pension without putting anything into the kitty.

Sweet deal. I would take it, but, it no longer exists. Anyway, I posted this article.

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