The Germans have made more progress in one lifetime than American society seems to have made since the 1880s.
The Civil War went underground, it just became a Cold War. 35-40% of the US adores Trump because he says and does what they can’t. Racist, sexist and homophobic values right out there in public.
The reason they created the myth that they won the election is because four years of Trump is their dream come true, and they want to keep living the dream. They want to live in their racist and sexist and homophobic bubble as long as possible, and the Capitol Riot was their attack on the democratic egalitarian society that is leaving them behind. The Big Lie is wishful thinking: “Can’t we always live openly as racists and sexists? We didn’t lose the election. Racism and sexism forever!!”
White supremacy does not mean loving the KKK. White supremacy is every Republican and every Trump voter who wants males to have it better than females, whites to have it better than everybody else, and straights to have it better than non-straights. Every Trump voter is racist, sexist, anti-gay, or anti-Jew or some combination.
It’s ugly, but that’s the Civil War we are in. A “civil war” is a war in society. The old civil society versus the new civil society. Red versus blue. Trump versus the future. That is a civil war. That is OUR civil war.
A more nuanced statement about Trump voters and Republicans
All my life I’ve wondered what’s the difference between the two parties. Silly me, being an intellectual, I thought that there was some ideological distinction.
Conservatives like the word tradition. When you want to do marketing and commercial outreach to conservatives, you use words like “heritage,“ “tradition,“ and “history.“
Now I understand why.
They prefer to live in the past, in the days of the old social order, maybe not back to slavery, but certainly back to when whites and men and straights had most of the authority.
Nobody is going to agree if you call them a racist or a sexist or a homophobe. Those are dirty words.
However, what draws those people together is what Prince Harry calls their “unconscious bias.“ American conservatives by and large are not very self-aware. They are not aware of their unconscious biases. A person who is unconsciously biased towards whites and males and straights might not even admit it to themselves. So obviously they would be incapable of admitting it to anybody else.
Maybe it sounds harsh when I say “every Trump voter is racist, sexist, anti-gay or anti-Jew or a combination.”
But like it or not, that’s what the January 6 Trump Rioters and Republican senators and Republican congressman and congresswomen and your average country club conservatives have in common: they are all biased in favor of whites, males, straights, and Christians and against the other groups and classes. That includes all those sicko Q people.
And that’s why I said white supremacy does not necessarily mean having a favorable opinion of the KKK. That’s the lame excuse that closet racists and sexists and homophobes use to justify and cover up the fact that they are social lepers. If you have a problem with the team of Stacey Plaskett, Jamie Raskin (a Jew), Nancy Pelosi who is 3rd in line for the presidency behind Kamala who is 2nd in line, et al, it’s because you are racist and sexist even if you can’t see it.
You get uncomfortable with women in their power. You get uncomfortable with non-Christians and non-whites. You don’t have the guts or the integrity to admit it to yourself, so you just go along with the Republican crowd and find words that are (pseudo) politically correct. Using a word like “nasty“ to describe a black or Latina woman in her power telling you to shove your racism and sexism up your ass. Questioning our black President’s heritage. Telling non-white congresswomen to go back where they came from. etc etc
If you vote for the person who says all that, it’s because you agree. You’re too much of a stinking wimp to come right out in public and say those things yourself, but you admire the man who does.
The Christians who are on the wrong side of history, like Mike Pence, are over there because they are attached to the pre-1960s model of one man one woman + children everyone straight man-has-more-power outdated Hallmark Channel family model. He is just as white supremacist and misogynistic as the sewer rats from January 6, he just puts a glossy coat of paint over it.
After reading this long argument, please reflect. Please don’t say Trump is going to go away. Please stop hoping that this problem will disappear. Please don’t put your head in the sand. The Christians who are attached to the old family model are not going to disappear. Racism and sexism and misogyny and homophobia and anti-Semitism are not disappearing, even if they are being slowly replaced. Ignorant people are subject to those illnesses. Stupid people continue to choose to believe them and act on them. Get used to it.
Roland, I agree that there is a deep seated fear in people about others. Trump magnified that fear. Biden has the key to unlocking this fear - treating each person as an individual to be listen to, empathized with and helped where he can. No screaming, no capital letter tweets, no drama - all of which heighten the fear. Biden's refusal to be drawn into the impeachment drama was prescient. Biden is quietly just plugging away at his job.
Shining light into all the dark corners is how you clean out the basement and the attic. Now it’s going to sound like I’m contradicting myself, but I’m not. We just had 4 years of the Confederacy and Nazi Germany in the WH, in the Executive, imo the voter backlash to our first African-American President. Jefferson Davis in the Oval Office woke everybody up. Now we have the awareness we need to fight back tooth and nail in every election from here on out.
Clever turn of phrase brought me some insight. As he goes, so go his followers. His demise is a learning opportunity for his followers, since they identify so closely with him. First of all losing the presidency: they are in complete denial of that event, obviously. And then losing the Senate, he is being blamed widely for that. And eventually losing his freedom but gaining an orange jumpsuit. It’s not a good time for Trumpsters.
PS I’ve seen a lot of different labels for followers of Cheeto, but I like “Trumpster” because it rhymes with dumpster.
Pence has remained as silent as a lamb. We have to wonder why he stayed loyal to a “dude” (said by Sasse) who ordered his murder. He, we know, is a Ken doll with no balls.
He is cleverly staying out of the news. Heather talked of his silence on her FB chat yesterday (you can find the exceptional chat on her page) by saying he was hailed during the Trial as a patriot and hero for not caving to trump on the 6th. QED, he is someone the "business Republicans" (I've also heard them referred to as "mainstream Republicans") can nominate in 2024.
It still amazes me that after the mob got so close to Pence and he understood Trump was inciting the mob to go after him and heard the chants to hang Pence, that he then refused to remove Trump from office. What kind of future leader does that?
We can not call such people "leaders". It is prostituting the language and giving meaning were it is not due. We should all teach that Just because someone won an election, does not make them a leader. Just because someone has a position of power, does not make them a leader.
A leader serves for the good, the advancement of followers in a moral, ethical, and legal manner, fulfilling their needs and wants, protecting their lives, ensuring their liberty, with equal advancement and protection to pursue their happiness.
Pence puts his dominionist beliefs ahead of politics. Like other 'end times' folks, he believes he had a role to play in carrying out 'God's plan'?, just as tp played a role, during these 'end times'. He's done his part and so he fades. The former president however, denies his part is over.
What baffles me is why the left hasn't picked up on the 'Antichrist' label the dominionists/end times believers use to brand leaders they despise? To declare tp to be the 'Antichrist', would be to sow seeds of doubt and question in the minds of those believers.
I read somewhere that we per capita we are more armed than Yemen, and more secular than Turkey. Seems like the Christian right is even more radical than the gun lovers, and almost as zealous as the white supremist. Strange that it is only the issue of abortion that binds the white evangelicals and their lobby to the Republicans.
The "end of times" worldview also validates Pence's fatalism and do nothing approach to the Pandemic as well. Whatever happened to separation of church and state? To acknowledge the pandemic and that we can control it ( as we have had done before since learning lessons from 1918 many times), would mean an acceptance of science. That's a bad road for the Christian fundamentalist like Pence, because he cant sell that in his twisted spirituality. He would have to accept global warming, and you just can't do that when you are on Charles Koch's and the Petroleum industry's payroll.
You know, that has crossed my mind. That would have been a powerful, and insidious, attack on tp's base of Christian voters. A message that an attack dog like the Lincoln Project could have carried out. If I were a political messaging professional, it would have been tempting. Dangerous, but tempting.
He had radio show before becoming a Congressman. I'm not sure he is a part of the biz Republicans. But, I do think his silence is way to keep one leg in each camp. Even though he is on his 3rd marriage, he is a member of the Christian Right wing. I think the Republicans are more complex and diverse than just these two camps of biz and white supremist populist. There is the Christian Right, the Libertarian wing, gun freaks, more? Pence uses populism same as Alex Jones and DT, just in a Christian Right wing message/theme.
Roland, you are painting "conservatives" with a very broad (and harsh) brush. No doubt there are plenty of "conservatives" who fit your description, but certainly not all. With all respect, in your self-described rant you are coming across much like the people you vilify, only from the opposite side.
Yes I’m sure. It’s venting from a lifetime of having this father, a father who is bossy and pushy and who stands for so much of what I deplore. It builds up.
It has taken me this long to get to the bottom of what makes him and his enormous social circle tick. I can’t even begin to tell you all how grateful I am for your help in understanding conservatives and Republicans and my dad. The therapy benefits have been deep and invaluable. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
I don't understand many of these people, but I always think it is dangerous to generalize. The following article may provide some insight. It was sent to me by a friend who does not in the least fit your description of "Christians on the wrong side of history." For many, it was a tough choice between Biden and Trump.
This kind of “Christian” rationalization for voting for Trump is infuriating. If abortion is really your issue you would vote for the party that believes in sex education, free birth control, SNAP, healthcare for all, a living wage. You would vote for the party that actually supports women and families. You would vote for the party that actually reduces abortion by increasing the social safety net and requiring employers to pay a living wage. This new version of Christianity is what drove me out of the church.
Yep. But Christianity as an institution has always been--and will always be--hypocritical, and many, many Christians (no, I will not tar all of them with the same brush but dang they're persistent) have always been--and will always be--hypocrites. However, all religions as institutions are, in their particular ways, racist, sexist, homophobic: they're just not as well organized as Christianity. The extremism in the Islamicist community is modeled on Christian extremism (albeit from the medieval period), with the historical fantasy of some notional "caliphate" from the past that never did anything that they claim occurred. Judaism has had to be decentralized since 70 CE and the destruction of the Second Temple; Israel does not speak for Jews although a huge number (especially in the USA) seem to be comfortable with Apartheid when it comes to Israeli policies. The religions of India (lumped together as "Hinduism" in the West but that really isn't a thing) are viciously racist and sexist. Even Buddhism had its imperial period and, in certain places (Burma, anyone?!), it behaves like any other organized religion. Organizations have to be self-regulating and self-perpetuating at all costs in order to survive. If Christianity actually operated on the principles of "feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick" it would have disappeared a long time ago.
One, single issue. Never mind climate change, international cooperation, bringing an end to the pandemic. This rationale for Trump from a man who calls childless married couples “godless” and the practice of yoga “evil”. Oh Please ....
I agree completely Elizabeth. And reversing Roe v. Wade would not end choice anyway. Estimates of the number of illegal abortions in the 1950s and 1960s ranged from 200,000 to 1.2 million per year. One analysis, extrapolating from data from North Carolina, concluded that an estimated 829,000 illegal or self-induced abortions occurred in 1967." - Guttmacher Institute. What reversing Roe v. Wade would do is to drive women underground, significantly increasing the likelihood that they will resort to an illegal abortion carried out under unsafe conditions. Studies show that the number of abortions decrease once societies have good sex education and free access to contraception. And when SNAP, healthcare for all, and a living wage are added to the mix, the number of abortions are likely to plummet.
Thank you for putting what I feel into words....my stepson is a pastor in a small congregation (and also a police officer!) and did struggle a bit with trump...not liking him personally but....insert all rationalizations!
Perhaps it’s a faux pas to try to mine the multiple scholars here for info and if so I humbly apologize. I’m more of a scientist and very much a novice when it comes to religious history. I’m only aware of Christian missionaries. Do other organized religions send out their flock to “convert” total strangers to their own beliefs.
Elizabeth, since this letter is now a couple of days old, I don't know if many people will see this reply. I've had time to reflect on the many comments to my post of Dr. Mohler's article. I shared it because I assume his thinking represents a significant block of voters, and they are not people who blindly followed Trump. They are operating from a different set of presuppositions that we need to try to understand and respect if we are to have any hope of unifying our country. Or at least identifying common ground.
I collect quotes I like, and one of them is "Let’s say you are adamant about being anti-abortion. Are you adamant about raising the baby when it gets here? Are you adamant about the baby having health care? Are you adamant about the baby having food and education? You can’t be for life inside the womb and not be for life outside the womb."
I couldn’t agree more. I once had a private opportunity to ask Flip Benham, of Operation Rescue “fame,” what became of the babies they rescued. “Well, they need fathers in the home.” I didn’t even bother with a follow up. 🤦♀️
How many children become foster kids - because their home is not safe - they are not cared for etc? I agree - time for these anti-abortion people to put their money & time where their mouth is! My daughter-in-law has raised several foster children and adopted several! Parents either abused them or just could not care for them. And there are many many kids in that situation.
This article is exactly why so-called Christians scare the heck out of me! Now that many of their services are on TV or online, any sermon the Sunday before an election is Exhibit 1 for why their tax-exempt status should be removed!
Voters should separate their religious beliefs from their political beliefs ... and vote accordingly ... and pray accordingly. This is why so many immigrants came here in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries. By the 20th, we were already mingling too much religion with politics.
And the fact the large footprints of their physical buildings and parking lots, exempt from taxes if I’m not mistaken? Yet they have the $$ to lobby politicians.
I found this article and this man's rationalizations to be outrageous! I think in general that single issue voters are shallow and self-serving and not well-educated about the complexities of the society we live in. To overlook Trump's moral failings and mendacity in favor of his position on abortion is so much excuse making. So we had Trump for four years and now we have an ultra-conservative Supreme Court. We almost lost our democracy because of this man and we are still in grave danger from white supremacists and domestic terrorists as a result of Trump. Does this make you happy, Albert Mohler? Was it worth it?
Mr Mohler is clearly a one-issue voter, despite his interminable rationalizations. And his lack of consideration for women’s rights is sickening. All backed by his own personal god. Ugh.
I have the perfect solution to the problem, so lengthily put forth, regarding the Christian one-issue solution in selecting a United States of America president.
When that righteous selection is blind to every other moral & ethical characteristic save anti-abortion advocacy (and, boy-oh-boy, Trump sure has your number) then I’ve the perfect answer to your quest to force WOMEN to bear the burden of an unwanted child. It takes two to tango but usually it’s the woman who bears all the shame and burdens of raising “their” child alone.
All evangelical/anti-abortion advocates can become financial partners in the raising of these “unwanted”children through the age of 21, adulthood.
This would include housing, food, sundries, decent clothing, medical co-pays and of course proper schooling including college.
Unless, of course, there were problems. That being the case, paying would shift for all costs associated with any legal fees and all, humanely enforced, incarceration should circumstances require. This would include any medical situations and, of course, the psychiatric counseling that currently is denied due to costs.
This would take the burden away from all tax paying Americans. We could throw in a clause that all pro-choice advocates should pay into a pool for any costs associated with legally sanctioned abortions.
Problem solved! What do ya say one-issue evangelicals?
Wait... no? Oh, well, there’s that horrid term again. The unconscious racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic wolf in sheep’s clothing metaphor.
Put your money where your mouth is or rethink your hypocrisy.
Wow. That article is really something. So erudite. And yet...aargh!! My only response is that I do not believe that a loving god, creator of all this...would look down on this specific planet and country, in the condition we are in today...and appreciate that logic and that decision.
Amazing Judy Mc. I read that very article some time ago and I was appalled by Dr. R. Albert Mohler Jr. need to turn himself inside out to vote for Trump. That kind of twisted logic is why I left religion.
What it came down to, in the end, is his position on abortion. For those of us who live in a country where abortion is legal, with the equally consistent view that the death penalty is outlawed) we see the issue of abortion as one where government (almost always a bunch of old white men) should not force their moral views on women. Each woman is a person, thoughtful, principled and with their own moral standard and each woman deserves respect. They are entitled to make their own moral choice. If a woman opposes abortion, and many do, then they will not get an abortion.
I live not far from a village called Karlin. When the old Catholic Church was for sale, a group of us considered buying it and renaming it "The United Church of Carlin", our prophet being the wise George. Recliners instead of pews, comedy instead of tomes, and, recently legalized substances instead of wine. One member was a seminary dropout who takes The New Testament very seriously, so he would be our guide. Then a furnace company bought the building for storage. George probably would find the humor, and lesson, in that.
So the gist is: the idea that every woman should have a decision over her own body AND welfare just doesnt come into this. Quite honestly, I have NO idea if I would ever have had an abortion, BUT its MY decision - not someone elses! The older I get (and I'm 82) the more I feel that way. Voting for trump after stating all the reasons why not? Thats an excuse and not a good one.
France has suffered greatly over the last 40 years as "68ers" have come to power and have spent that time working out in public their father-related complexes. The pre-68 family relationships were patriarchal, catholic and "conservative". The mess France is in now is a result of these "young poiticians'" incapacity to appreciate that their was some good in the way society, work and education was organized prior and that their upbringing as adolescents may have been fraught with rigidities and conflict at some point but all was not to be thrown out unless you have something pretty solid to replace it. Their focus has been the slogan "it is forbidden to forbid" and on the destruction of what their fathers stood for. Unfortunately the result has been far from brilliant...steadily increasing and massive unemployment, declining relative wealth of the nation, cultural chaos and growing popular anger at being ignored by the highly educated Numbskulls who are ruling them without listening, who are telling them that they are wrong to fear loss of cultural identity and socio-economic slippage, who are ignorant if they feel that the areas outside of Paris are ignored by the ruling elite. Come-uppance time is very close indeed! The yellow vest revolt was but a foretaste of things to come....1789 was not pretty but it is the way French society changes political systems.
Judy while tolerance is important and the Buddhist sentiment “don’t try to enlighten the unenlightened.” apply here. It is important to see Roland’s final point that ignorance of biases subjects us to our illnesses and stupidity enables us to choose to continue to believe our illnesses are correct. I personally have all of the biases towards straight, white, males, after all I am one, but I can recognize people who are not me as worthy. I can extend them all the courtesies due any one of us because they are human. We are all on this same boat together. If only it were not so hard to work together. Working together requires dropping our blinders. Trumpistas don’t seem to want to work together. Generally speaking those who support his tRumpiness fit Roland’s mold. And generally speaking those of us who support the new President aren’t quite as subject to stupidity. That is the stupidity of unconscious bias.
I agree with Roland, at least on the stance that most people who voted for Trump either represent a gang, openly hostile to all but white men, and privileged business owners protecting their business interests.
My only point of divergence is with Latino Latina Trump voters, especially Floridians. Most of those folks escaped either Cuba or El Salvador and the horrors of their autocrats. They were probably hit the hardest with anti-Democrat propaganda by telling them they would be voting for the kind of country they left.
Reaching that desperation point in people is the current Republican brand. And though many of us are savvy enough to see through them, there are so many people who connect to their fears with those triggering commercials. And Trump championed the art of pressing on those fears.
I bring this up to remind people that we have a long way to go to convince people that they don’t have to fear a Democratic government; that a government that invites everybody to participate is a better government than one which glorifies a single leader - a brand instead of substance.
Agreed, though I think that’ll be a tough nut to crack. I think right now, we should demand that the politicians who serve is not lie to us for political gain. Everybody understands sarcasm and hyperbole, but if push a conspiracy theory or an outright lie that advances your career, you can be open to legal action and censure.
Heather’s Facebook chat yesterday included a very good explanation of the term “conservative”. It changed my perspective on the word and anyone here who hasn’t seen it would likely benefit from the information she shares.
The previous reply that says they are uploaded to her YouTube channel but with a delay is exactly what I came back to say. Hope you are able to find it - the above referenced post included a link, as well.
Yes, Carol, you can subscribe, for $5 per month, to Heather's Letters From an American newsletter, which will appear in your inbox daily. Just Google it.
Sorry, I caught up with yesterday's lecture. I think i get it now.
Republicans ARE not "conservative" anymore. The goalposts have moved, or better analogy, they replaced the goal post with flagpoles and call them goalposts.
To conserve, Lincoln meant conserving the Union and the organizing principles of our founders.
Today, pre Fascists are using the term "conservative" falsely. Like all authoritarian regimes, the corrupt the language to corrupt the opinions of the working class masses. I suspect the business class is in on it. But now legally corporations are people, just lacking souls. And just like in 1930's Germany, the conservatives losing power and credibility, bind up with the fascists to maintain power.
The only thing they wish to conserve is their power through voter suppression and since Jan 6th serious insurrection, they are promoting and encouraging mass political violence. To conserve their power they promote all government spending and agency's as wasteful and incompetent ( save for defense). They want to pay as little in taxes as possible. Today's Oligarchy, like those before it, already have plenty of resources to take care of themselves in everyway. The wealthy do not need Government for anything save for defense. This American Oligarchy sees any government as a threat to their continued wealth amassing. They want no government oversight for the environment, no financial regulation, no respect or increased funding for education and Public Health, and thus no respect for human dignity.
But Republicans are not pre Fascists now. They are Fascists. They are a cult to a dear leader. "Fascism is a patriarchal cult of the leader, who promises national restoration in the face of supposed humiliation by a treacherous and power-hungry global elite, who have encouraged minorities to destabilize the social order as part of their plan to dominate the “true nation,” and fold them into a global world government. The fascist leader is the father of his nation, in a very real sense like the father in a traditional patriarchal family. He mobilizes the masses by reminding them of what they supposedly have lost, and who it is that is responsible for that loss – the figures who control democracy itself, the elite; Nazi ideology is a species of fascism in which this global elite are Jews.
"The future promised by the fascist leader is one in which there are plentiful blue collar jobs, reflecting the manly ideals of hard work and strength. In Nazi propaganda, many white collar jobs, the domain of Jews – running department stores, banking – were for the idle. And the fascist nation’s heart and soul is the military – as Hitler writes, “[w]hat the German people owes to the army can be briefly summed up in a single word, to wit: everything.” The fascist future is a kind of restoration of a glorious past, but a modern version – replete with awesome technology that glorifies the nation to the world. The German V-2 rocket was a characteristic representation of Nazi might. The fascist future is, in the famous description of Jeffrey Herf, a kind of reactionary modernism."
Unconscious bias is a concept to be handled with extreme care. This seemingly irrefutable arguement....as you are not aware of being so biased and don't necessarily express it other than by lifestyle...can easily become the imposition of another's opinion in the place of your own and in the process you are being told you are stupid for not knowing you had it. How long will it take, with a weapon like this in people's hands before it becomes a method of control and limitation of free speech and thought, imposing the "official line" and acceptable wisdom of a segment of the population...elite or otherwise...It must be said that the Chinese State is particularly advanced along this line and quite adept at imposing its will in this way. Through "re-education" camps and citizenship "performance" monitoring and "nudging" in the right direction impenitent backsliders. With such powers, how long will it be before we follow them and start to punish those who don't want the official biases imposed upon their "unconscious ones and thius are pushed to the margins of society.
I agree with everything you said, Roland, but alas am not enamored of the ending. :) I hope instead of 'getting used to it,' we can proactively disempower it. Your description of the problem being a subconscious need to cling to a glorified past, and implying fear of a progressive future--one where straight white males are no longer dominant, but part of a diverse community--is brilliant. When we understand that, hopefully we can address and allay people's fears. To do so, we need to shine a light on the benefits of a better future. We need new stories. Ones that no longer glorify the rugged solo cowboy, but highlight the camaraderie of the diverse group of people sitting around the campfire together.
"Your description of the problem being a subconscious need to cling to a glorified past, and implying fear of a progressive future--one where straight white males are no longer dominant, but part of a diverse community--is brilliant."
Hello Imogene. You are kind, thank you. Please give yourself credit, along with everyone else here on HCR, because this is one of 3 places where I worked this all out. HCR, Greg Olear, and the original progressive teacher and mentor, my wife.
My science-fiction-future-society-story-in-development has no cowboys, no loners, only teams. Well, I take it back, one character was raised in cowboy country, a conservative state, but he is there to prove the point that the future of society is in egalitarian teamwork. He is there to bring along all the people in society he represents.
Much of what you say, Roland, is true. Sadly, these divisions run deep and provide a rich soil for the growth of authoritarianism. The forty-three Senators who voted for acquittal made an unequivocal endorsement of a dictator who would seize power and negate our votes, in a heartbeat.
For me the key issue is: what is our path to be, to maintain and grow equality and democracy? It is easy to rouse a crowd with hatred and that is what we have witnessed and there will be more.
How do we stand and gain ground. Clearly we need a constant drumbeat of "vote and serve", "vote and serve." Our daily dialogue with our neighbors must reflect this.
But please let's not fall into the same trap as the "Movement Conservatives" and divide our country into what" Saints and Scum? Let's build the awareness and the power of the solid majority and, whenever possible, chip away at the iceberg (90% underwater) of division, racism and hatred.
At first glance perhaps it looks like I’m being divisive. But actually I love my father very much, even though in some major ways we are definitely not on the same page. I got fortunate with both of my sisters, all three of us *are* on the same page re: politics and society. I work with truck drivers and warehouse guys ((and the occasional gal)). Vast majority are Trumpsters. Oh well. Probably 80% of the people I work with are Trumpsters. We are all cut from the same cloth, are we not? Love thy neighbor as thyself because thy neighbor is thyself. The distinction between self and other is an illusion. We are all facets of one huge gem.
Roland, you've definitely launched a fire storm here.
First, I'm going to challenge you on the Germans. They too have the problems we do. Right-wing extremist, racist attitudes about select foreign groups, etc. What they have done, is made every high school student visit a concentration camp for a day. They have universal conscription. And, they stammtisch where people can meet in informal meetings talk civilly about the issues of the day. Too bad we don't follow that model in this country.
Second, I'm a Christian in a national prominent denomination that supports equal rights for all people, support women in leadership roles, supports gay rights, supports social justice, etc. They may have a different view on abortion, but they're not against planned parenthood. Nor charity. Nor taking care of their neighbors and members of the congregation. When Covid hit, many of our congregation received the Covid relief checks and donated it to a church fund to help our less fortunate members and when they wasn't needed, helped out those in our community. That's the Christianity I belong too and frankly I am tired of reading people chastising the faith when they apparently know so little about the faith except what they read/hear from media pundits. True, there are those "fundamentalist" who believe what you say. But, they don't set the tone for a majority of Christian congregations in this country, but they do make great stories for the media.
So I'm not a clueless dummy bashing Christians. I am a moral person who is opposed to Christians supporting a world-class criminal and serial sex offender. If you are Mike Pence, there is something wrong with your moral code.
"First, I'm going to challenge you on the Germans"
Ok, challenge away!
My knowledge of Germans is dated, I lived there in the 70s, my parents were born there in the 1930s. I did phrase that statement carefully, because I can't say I know for sure that Germans made more progress since the 1940s than Americans since the Civil War. It's a conversation starter. But given how right-wing our society is, given that close to 40% of America favors Trump, I have to give the Germans the edge. They are more progressive than we are, or so it seems, again I am not current. Our European-based commenters here, like Stuart and R Dooley and Gailee and our newcomers from the UK, + Daria in Mexico, and our resident scholars, could provide more substantive arguments. I am certainly open to being educated.
"Second, I'm a Christian..."
Well, Larry, you are certainly my kind of Christian!! Unitarian Universalism (UU) goes against the grain of most Christian denominations, many of which are rooted in the past and/or rooted in superstition, old beliefs that have not caught up with current social reality. Obviously I do not include enlightened Christian faith in my generalization about Mike Pence. Joe Biden is Catholic, but so far he is magnificent. Barack and Michelle Obama went to church, naturally I wouldn't include them either in my sweeping generalization. I know the California Catholic church, which has Franciscan and Jesuit roots, is excellent and fascinating in many ways, my wife is linked in to a whole network of Italian-heritage Catholics in the SF Bay Area. They are awesome people.
Let me say that I don't get my opinions about Christianity from the media, nor are my opinions superficial or ill-informed. I like to speak definitely and forcefully only when I have knowledge and experience to back it up. My father was raised Roman Catholic in Bavaria, so that's my whole paternal side. My sisters and me went to Sunday school during my elementary school years at a Lutheran church in the San Francisco Bay Area, he was making a concession to my mom. I have been to family seders and bar mitzvahs in high school in Germany (remember, Joshua was a Jew). I visited many different Christian churches over the years, because I was curious, and searching. At one point, believe it or not, I applied to Yale Divinity School and received a full scholarship offer because of the entrance interview where me and the interviewer discussed M. Scott Peck. I decided not to go that path, turned down the offer, but not before I had to choose a denomination as part of the entrance requirements. UU in Boston. I have studied the roots and history of the LDS church going all the way back to a book report in elementary school. I happen to know that Joseph Smith was inspired by a vision of the emerald tablets. I have an excellent if dated book called Extraordinary Groups by Kephart and Gellner that is fascinating, talks about JW, LDS, Shakerism, Old World Amish, and other religious groups in America. The LDS Church is the fastest growing religion in the world, with intriguing origins. I study the origins, those same Emerald Tablets of Thoth.
It is the origins of religions that interests me, because the founders are inspired individuals, bringing us something special. I have unconventional views on this subject, views that would be controversial even here. I think Joshua really did walk on water and turn water into wine. I don't think those stories were made up after the fact by starry-eyed devotees, because the various original "gospels" agree on certain points like this one. In my mind, there are certain exceptional individuals, men and women both, who have skills-abilities that the rest of us have forgotten. Carlos Castaneda wrote about the Huichol tradition, and his mentors Don Juan and Don Genaro were able to do many of the same magical things Joshua is purported to have done. These exceptional individuals bring with them a light which we could all benefit from, an enlightened view. Unfortunately but predictably, events like the Council of Nicaea tend to dilute and distort the purity of the original message, hence superstition becomes a factor over time.
I have read every historical account of Joshua and his life I could find (but not in the last several decades), from Biblical gospels to Urantia Book. Even The Da Vinci Code. Was Mary from Magdala the wife of Joshua? That is a wide open question, and you wouldn't have to work hard to persuade me that her life was X-ed out because of sexism.
All that investigative work aside, imo Joshua's Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and every great religion drinks from the same well. Mitra. Zoroaster. We are being shown who we are. We are being shown a better way to think and to behave and to live. Francis of Assisi. My patron saint, because I was born in St. Francis Memorial Hospital in San Francisco. Be kind to others. Help those in need. Treat your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others. I am an Eagle Scout, and what hooked me into Scouting is the ethics, the motto, the moral code. I believe that morality and ethics and basic humanity rules the world of society, and every person, Christian or religious or non-religious, is equal in the eyes of the Goddess and the Divine and deserves utmost care.
Roland, thanks for sharing this. It helps understand your point of view. Did your parents leave before the war or after? Have read alot about Nazi Germany, am writing my own fiction book/story about German POWs in the US during the war, etc. My effort was to understand how a nation of civilized people could allow what they did to the Jews and others. Then, I see similar leaning in our country and it makes me angry.
As for religion, glad we have a similar view as to what Christian is supposed to be but is more often failed by man than promoted by its believers. But, I've learned that the best way to "spread" the faith isn't by pontificating about the teachings as much as demonstrating them. It's worked for me.
btw Larry I have commented extensively here on HCR and also on Greg Olear about the Trump and Hitler connection. Trump has read and studied Hitler, a 1941 book in English that was given to him. Trump's practices imitated Hitler's. That has been a frequent point of discussion here on HCR. Whenever anyone talks Hitler's Germany and mentions Trump, they are speaking my language, and incidentally my first language was German. My paternal side of the family is the most Hitler-friendly of the 2 sides, although I have been told that my paternal grandfather did not like Hitler. However, I think he was in the minority in that society, he was certainly in the minority in my dad's family.
CORRECTION. The Germans no longer have conscription. They stopped it in 2011, but Merkel had considered bringing it back when the military wasn't reaching its recruiting goals.
Hmmm, thought provoking reply as usual. I rant here on HCR, and Greg Olear and Lucian Truscott and in my journal. I rant when I am hashing out concepts in the story, just to myself and a few other people. But so far none of my characters have ranted in the book.
Actually only one of my characters is an American who grew up in a conservative, Republican state. My work here on that subject is helping me be able to write this character intelligently, without sounding like an ignoramus. Although my dad is an arch conservative, my schooling is in California and Germany, progressive training. I really needed to understand this part of society to write this character plausibly and powerfully. I want certain people to identify with him with ease.
Having been born ad raised in Alabama and a self-described recovering racist, let me help you with understanding that part of society. In your original post, in reference to racists, you wrote: "You don’t have the guts or the integrity to admit it to yourself, . . ." When your very existence, much like the air you breath, is racist, you don't comprehend that YOU are part of the problem so there is nothing to admit. When challenging their world view, a racist will not admit to something they have no foundation to comprehend.
So true, Kelly! If we're really honest, we are all recovering racists. Ibram X. Kendi was on Brene Brown's podcast last summer. He had this to say about how we are all immersed in racism just by virtue of growing up in the U.S. “If we talk about racist ideas…..to grow up in America is to grow up with racist ideas constantly being rained on your head and you have no umbrella and you don’t even know… that you’re wet with those racist ideas…because those racist ideas cause you to think that you’re dry.”
We don't get let off the hook, though, just because we can't avoid the environment in which we are raised. Once we know better, we must be better.
Yes! Love Brene Brown. Need to make time to listen to her Podcasts. I'm not sure when, exactly, I started describing myself as a "recovering racist" but it's been awhile. My oldest grandchild is 7 so sometime since then. I was like Debby Irving, who wrote Waking Up White. I thought I wasn't racist and would have denied it but I now recognize that, even today, I have embedded thoughts that I have to reprogram. I feel I have made huge leaps in progress and try to make others aware. Kendi has it right!
The Germans have made more progress in one lifetime than American society seems to have made since the 1880s.
The Civil War went underground, it just became a Cold War. 35-40% of the US adores Trump because he says and does what they can’t. Racist, sexist and homophobic values right out there in public.
The reason they created the myth that they won the election is because four years of Trump is their dream come true, and they want to keep living the dream. They want to live in their racist and sexist and homophobic bubble as long as possible, and the Capitol Riot was their attack on the democratic egalitarian society that is leaving them behind. The Big Lie is wishful thinking: “Can’t we always live openly as racists and sexists? We didn’t lose the election. Racism and sexism forever!!”
White supremacy does not mean loving the KKK. White supremacy is every Republican and every Trump voter who wants males to have it better than females, whites to have it better than everybody else, and straights to have it better than non-straights. Every Trump voter is racist, sexist, anti-gay, or anti-Jew or some combination.
It’s ugly, but that’s the Civil War we are in. A “civil war” is a war in society. The old civil society versus the new civil society. Red versus blue. Trump versus the future. That is a civil war. That is OUR civil war.
A more nuanced statement about Trump voters and Republicans
All my life I’ve wondered what’s the difference between the two parties. Silly me, being an intellectual, I thought that there was some ideological distinction.
Conservatives like the word tradition. When you want to do marketing and commercial outreach to conservatives, you use words like “heritage,“ “tradition,“ and “history.“
Now I understand why.
They prefer to live in the past, in the days of the old social order, maybe not back to slavery, but certainly back to when whites and men and straights had most of the authority.
Nobody is going to agree if you call them a racist or a sexist or a homophobe. Those are dirty words.
However, what draws those people together is what Prince Harry calls their “unconscious bias.“ American conservatives by and large are not very self-aware. They are not aware of their unconscious biases. A person who is unconsciously biased towards whites and males and straights might not even admit it to themselves. So obviously they would be incapable of admitting it to anybody else.
Maybe it sounds harsh when I say “every Trump voter is racist, sexist, anti-gay or anti-Jew or a combination.”
But like it or not, that’s what the January 6 Trump Rioters and Republican senators and Republican congressman and congresswomen and your average country club conservatives have in common: they are all biased in favor of whites, males, straights, and Christians and against the other groups and classes. That includes all those sicko Q people.
And that’s why I said white supremacy does not necessarily mean having a favorable opinion of the KKK. That’s the lame excuse that closet racists and sexists and homophobes use to justify and cover up the fact that they are social lepers. If you have a problem with the team of Stacey Plaskett, Jamie Raskin (a Jew), Nancy Pelosi who is 3rd in line for the presidency behind Kamala who is 2nd in line, et al, it’s because you are racist and sexist even if you can’t see it.
You get uncomfortable with women in their power. You get uncomfortable with non-Christians and non-whites. You don’t have the guts or the integrity to admit it to yourself, so you just go along with the Republican crowd and find words that are (pseudo) politically correct. Using a word like “nasty“ to describe a black or Latina woman in her power telling you to shove your racism and sexism up your ass. Questioning our black President’s heritage. Telling non-white congresswomen to go back where they came from. etc etc
If you vote for the person who says all that, it’s because you agree. You’re too much of a stinking wimp to come right out in public and say those things yourself, but you admire the man who does.
The Christians who are on the wrong side of history, like Mike Pence, are over there because they are attached to the pre-1960s model of one man one woman + children everyone straight man-has-more-power outdated Hallmark Channel family model. He is just as white supremacist and misogynistic as the sewer rats from January 6, he just puts a glossy coat of paint over it.
After reading this long argument, please reflect. Please don’t say Trump is going to go away. Please stop hoping that this problem will disappear. Please don’t put your head in the sand. The Christians who are attached to the old family model are not going to disappear. Racism and sexism and misogyny and homophobia and anti-Semitism are not disappearing, even if they are being slowly replaced. Ignorant people are subject to those illnesses. Stupid people continue to choose to believe them and act on them. Get used to it.
Roland, I agree that there is a deep seated fear in people about others. Trump magnified that fear. Biden has the key to unlocking this fear - treating each person as an individual to be listen to, empathized with and helped where he can. No screaming, no capital letter tweets, no drama - all of which heighten the fear. Biden's refusal to be drawn into the impeachment drama was prescient. Biden is quietly just plugging away at his job.
You gotta love what he and Kamala are doing. Brilliant work. My anxiety level has dropped precipitously.
That said, the good news is this:
THE NIGHTMARE IS OVER
Shining light into all the dark corners is how you clean out the basement and the attic. Now it’s going to sound like I’m contradicting myself, but I’m not. We just had 4 years of the Confederacy and Nazi Germany in the WH, in the Executive, imo the voter backlash to our first African-American President. Jefferson Davis in the Oval Office woke everybody up. Now we have the awareness we need to fight back tooth and nail in every election from here on out.
His number isn't just 45. It's also 2 -- the Confederacy's second president.
Whatever it is, soon his number is up.
Clever turn of phrase brought me some insight. As he goes, so go his followers. His demise is a learning opportunity for his followers, since they identify so closely with him. First of all losing the presidency: they are in complete denial of that event, obviously. And then losing the Senate, he is being blamed widely for that. And eventually losing his freedom but gaining an orange jumpsuit. It’s not a good time for Trumpsters.
PS I’ve seen a lot of different labels for followers of Cheeto, but I like “Trumpster” because it rhymes with dumpster.
Der PussenGropenTrumpenFuhrer
🤣😂😅
Last year it was good fun to build fake German sentences around that moniker. The laughing stopped in January.
That is hysterical!
Traitor in Chief to me.
Fake45. Stole the election.
100%
I read that word, 'trumpster' and immediately flash to when Madame Tussauds dumped his wax sculpture into their dumpster.
Best memory ever.
I like the image - orange jumpsuit to match the orange hair.
If he does go to prison,will he be able to get his skin and hair dye jobs done?
If only to match the jumpsuit. But do we care?
Nice!
Pence has remained as silent as a lamb. We have to wonder why he stayed loyal to a “dude” (said by Sasse) who ordered his murder. He, we know, is a Ken doll with no balls.
He is cleverly staying out of the news. Heather talked of his silence on her FB chat yesterday (you can find the exceptional chat on her page) by saying he was hailed during the Trial as a patriot and hero for not caving to trump on the 6th. QED, he is someone the "business Republicans" (I've also heard them referred to as "mainstream Republicans") can nominate in 2024.
It still amazes me that after the mob got so close to Pence and he understood Trump was inciting the mob to go after him and heard the chants to hang Pence, that he then refused to remove Trump from office. What kind of future leader does that?
A power worshiper. NOT A LEADER does that.
Power worshiper, that's a good one.
We can not call such people "leaders". It is prostituting the language and giving meaning were it is not due. We should all teach that Just because someone won an election, does not make them a leader. Just because someone has a position of power, does not make them a leader.
A leader serves for the good, the advancement of followers in a moral, ethical, and legal manner, fulfilling their needs and wants, protecting their lives, ensuring their liberty, with equal advancement and protection to pursue their happiness.
I know! There are no words to describe my disdain for most cult Republicans.
Pence puts his dominionist beliefs ahead of politics. Like other 'end times' folks, he believes he had a role to play in carrying out 'God's plan'?, just as tp played a role, during these 'end times'. He's done his part and so he fades. The former president however, denies his part is over.
What baffles me is why the left hasn't picked up on the 'Antichrist' label the dominionists/end times believers use to brand leaders they despise? To declare tp to be the 'Antichrist', would be to sow seeds of doubt and question in the minds of those believers.
I read somewhere that we per capita we are more armed than Yemen, and more secular than Turkey. Seems like the Christian right is even more radical than the gun lovers, and almost as zealous as the white supremist. Strange that it is only the issue of abortion that binds the white evangelicals and their lobby to the Republicans.
The "end of times" worldview also validates Pence's fatalism and do nothing approach to the Pandemic as well. Whatever happened to separation of church and state? To acknowledge the pandemic and that we can control it ( as we have had done before since learning lessons from 1918 many times), would mean an acceptance of science. That's a bad road for the Christian fundamentalist like Pence, because he cant sell that in his twisted spirituality. He would have to accept global warming, and you just can't do that when you are on Charles Koch's and the Petroleum industry's payroll.
You know, that has crossed my mind. That would have been a powerful, and insidious, attack on tp's base of Christian voters. A message that an attack dog like the Lincoln Project could have carried out. If I were a political messaging professional, it would have been tempting. Dangerous, but tempting.
Especially when they own 666 5th Avenue.
He had radio show before becoming a Congressman. I'm not sure he is a part of the biz Republicans. But, I do think his silence is way to keep one leg in each camp. Even though he is on his 3rd marriage, he is a member of the Christian Right wing. I think the Republicans are more complex and diverse than just these two camps of biz and white supremist populist. There is the Christian Right, the Libertarian wing, gun freaks, more? Pence uses populism same as Alex Jones and DT, just in a Christian Right wing message/theme.
Anatomically incorrect former vice president
It took over an hour to spot the Silence of the Lambs ref. Yay Marlene!
TJP- I picked it up as soon as I read it-LOL!
He’ll have to check with mother to see if he can grow them.
Baaaa ba...
Looking sharp in that tux, man.
Thanks, I clean up well, but its a seldom occurrence.
I shower once a week, whether I need it or not .....
Trust me, she wants you to shower everyday, maybe twice.
Marlene Lemer-Bigley I like the phrase "silent as a lamb" Kinda fits, given that the insurrectionists were looking to kill him.
Roland, you are painting "conservatives" with a very broad (and harsh) brush. No doubt there are plenty of "conservatives" who fit your description, but certainly not all. With all respect, in your self-described rant you are coming across much like the people you vilify, only from the opposite side.
Yes I’m sure. It’s venting from a lifetime of having this father, a father who is bossy and pushy and who stands for so much of what I deplore. It builds up.
It has taken me this long to get to the bottom of what makes him and his enormous social circle tick. I can’t even begin to tell you all how grateful I am for your help in understanding conservatives and Republicans and my dad. The therapy benefits have been deep and invaluable. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
I don't understand many of these people, but I always think it is dangerous to generalize. The following article may provide some insight. It was sent to me by a friend who does not in the least fit your description of "Christians on the wrong side of history." For many, it was a tough choice between Biden and Trump.
https://albertmohler.com/2020/10/26/christians-conscience-and-the-looming-2020-election
This kind of “Christian” rationalization for voting for Trump is infuriating. If abortion is really your issue you would vote for the party that believes in sex education, free birth control, SNAP, healthcare for all, a living wage. You would vote for the party that actually supports women and families. You would vote for the party that actually reduces abortion by increasing the social safety net and requiring employers to pay a living wage. This new version of Christianity is what drove me out of the church.
Yep. But Christianity as an institution has always been--and will always be--hypocritical, and many, many Christians (no, I will not tar all of them with the same brush but dang they're persistent) have always been--and will always be--hypocrites. However, all religions as institutions are, in their particular ways, racist, sexist, homophobic: they're just not as well organized as Christianity. The extremism in the Islamicist community is modeled on Christian extremism (albeit from the medieval period), with the historical fantasy of some notional "caliphate" from the past that never did anything that they claim occurred. Judaism has had to be decentralized since 70 CE and the destruction of the Second Temple; Israel does not speak for Jews although a huge number (especially in the USA) seem to be comfortable with Apartheid when it comes to Israeli policies. The religions of India (lumped together as "Hinduism" in the West but that really isn't a thing) are viciously racist and sexist. Even Buddhism had its imperial period and, in certain places (Burma, anyone?!), it behaves like any other organized religion. Organizations have to be self-regulating and self-perpetuating at all costs in order to survive. If Christianity actually operated on the principles of "feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick" it would have disappeared a long time ago.
One, single issue. Never mind climate change, international cooperation, bringing an end to the pandemic. This rationale for Trump from a man who calls childless married couples “godless” and the practice of yoga “evil”. Oh Please ....
I agree completely Elizabeth. And reversing Roe v. Wade would not end choice anyway. Estimates of the number of illegal abortions in the 1950s and 1960s ranged from 200,000 to 1.2 million per year. One analysis, extrapolating from data from North Carolina, concluded that an estimated 829,000 illegal or self-induced abortions occurred in 1967." - Guttmacher Institute. What reversing Roe v. Wade would do is to drive women underground, significantly increasing the likelihood that they will resort to an illegal abortion carried out under unsafe conditions. Studies show that the number of abortions decrease once societies have good sex education and free access to contraception. And when SNAP, healthcare for all, and a living wage are added to the mix, the number of abortions are likely to plummet.
Thank you for putting what I feel into words....my stepson is a pastor in a small congregation (and also a police officer!) and did struggle a bit with trump...not liking him personally but....insert all rationalizations!
Perhaps it’s a faux pas to try to mine the multiple scholars here for info and if so I humbly apologize. I’m more of a scientist and very much a novice when it comes to religious history. I’m only aware of Christian missionaries. Do other organized religions send out their flock to “convert” total strangers to their own beliefs.
Well said.
Ditto.
Elizabeth, since this letter is now a couple of days old, I don't know if many people will see this reply. I've had time to reflect on the many comments to my post of Dr. Mohler's article. I shared it because I assume his thinking represents a significant block of voters, and they are not people who blindly followed Trump. They are operating from a different set of presuppositions that we need to try to understand and respect if we are to have any hope of unifying our country. Or at least identifying common ground.
I collect quotes I like, and one of them is "Let’s say you are adamant about being anti-abortion. Are you adamant about raising the baby when it gets here? Are you adamant about the baby having health care? Are you adamant about the baby having food and education? You can’t be for life inside the womb and not be for life outside the womb."
They are though! It’s more about controlling a woman’s body than anything to do with affirming life.
I've heard them called "pro-birth."
I couldn’t agree more. I once had a private opportunity to ask Flip Benham, of Operation Rescue “fame,” what became of the babies they rescued. “Well, they need fathers in the home.” I didn’t even bother with a follow up. 🤦♀️
I like this thought.
The best one is the last one you stated.
How many children become foster kids - because their home is not safe - they are not cared for etc? I agree - time for these anti-abortion people to put their money & time where their mouth is! My daughter-in-law has raised several foster children and adopted several! Parents either abused them or just could not care for them. And there are many many kids in that situation.
This article is exactly why so-called Christians scare the heck out of me! Now that many of their services are on TV or online, any sermon the Sunday before an election is Exhibit 1 for why their tax-exempt status should be removed!
Voters should separate their religious beliefs from their political beliefs ... and vote accordingly ... and pray accordingly. This is why so many immigrants came here in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries. By the 20th, we were already mingling too much religion with politics.
And the fact the large footprints of their physical buildings and parking lots, exempt from taxes if I’m not mistaken? Yet they have the $$ to lobby politicians.
I found this article and this man's rationalizations to be outrageous! I think in general that single issue voters are shallow and self-serving and not well-educated about the complexities of the society we live in. To overlook Trump's moral failings and mendacity in favor of his position on abortion is so much excuse making. So we had Trump for four years and now we have an ultra-conservative Supreme Court. We almost lost our democracy because of this man and we are still in grave danger from white supremacists and domestic terrorists as a result of Trump. Does this make you happy, Albert Mohler? Was it worth it?
Jesus weeps.
Indeed if the embodiment of Christ were here with us that person would weep for us.
Mr Mohler is clearly a one-issue voter, despite his interminable rationalizations. And his lack of consideration for women’s rights is sickening. All backed by his own personal god. Ugh.
I haven’t read the article, but there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for making women second class. None. Anything else is kaka.
Yes, that’s absolutely what I took from his article.
I have the perfect solution to the problem, so lengthily put forth, regarding the Christian one-issue solution in selecting a United States of America president.
When that righteous selection is blind to every other moral & ethical characteristic save anti-abortion advocacy (and, boy-oh-boy, Trump sure has your number) then I’ve the perfect answer to your quest to force WOMEN to bear the burden of an unwanted child. It takes two to tango but usually it’s the woman who bears all the shame and burdens of raising “their” child alone.
All evangelical/anti-abortion advocates can become financial partners in the raising of these “unwanted”children through the age of 21, adulthood.
This would include housing, food, sundries, decent clothing, medical co-pays and of course proper schooling including college.
Unless, of course, there were problems. That being the case, paying would shift for all costs associated with any legal fees and all, humanely enforced, incarceration should circumstances require. This would include any medical situations and, of course, the psychiatric counseling that currently is denied due to costs.
This would take the burden away from all tax paying Americans. We could throw in a clause that all pro-choice advocates should pay into a pool for any costs associated with legally sanctioned abortions.
Problem solved! What do ya say one-issue evangelicals?
Wait... no? Oh, well, there’s that horrid term again. The unconscious racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic wolf in sheep’s clothing metaphor.
Put your money where your mouth is or rethink your hypocrisy.
Wow. That article is really something. So erudite. And yet...aargh!! My only response is that I do not believe that a loving god, creator of all this...would look down on this specific planet and country, in the condition we are in today...and appreciate that logic and that decision.
Amazing Judy Mc. I read that very article some time ago and I was appalled by Dr. R. Albert Mohler Jr. need to turn himself inside out to vote for Trump. That kind of twisted logic is why I left religion.
What it came down to, in the end, is his position on abortion. For those of us who live in a country where abortion is legal, with the equally consistent view that the death penalty is outlawed) we see the issue of abortion as one where government (almost always a bunch of old white men) should not force their moral views on women. Each woman is a person, thoughtful, principled and with their own moral standard and each woman deserves respect. They are entitled to make their own moral choice. If a woman opposes abortion, and many do, then they will not get an abortion.
I live not far from a village called Karlin. When the old Catholic Church was for sale, a group of us considered buying it and renaming it "The United Church of Carlin", our prophet being the wise George. Recliners instead of pews, comedy instead of tomes, and, recently legalized substances instead of wine. One member was a seminary dropout who takes The New Testament very seriously, so he would be our guide. Then a furnace company bought the building for storage. George probably would find the humor, and lesson, in that.
Wow.
This idiot is exactly the same as the Obvious Idiots. He just covers up better.
Well, this has been a fun thread. Thanks for all the comments!
So the gist is: the idea that every woman should have a decision over her own body AND welfare just doesnt come into this. Quite honestly, I have NO idea if I would ever have had an abortion, BUT its MY decision - not someone elses! The older I get (and I'm 82) the more I feel that way. Voting for trump after stating all the reasons why not? Thats an excuse and not a good one.
France has suffered greatly over the last 40 years as "68ers" have come to power and have spent that time working out in public their father-related complexes. The pre-68 family relationships were patriarchal, catholic and "conservative". The mess France is in now is a result of these "young poiticians'" incapacity to appreciate that their was some good in the way society, work and education was organized prior and that their upbringing as adolescents may have been fraught with rigidities and conflict at some point but all was not to be thrown out unless you have something pretty solid to replace it. Their focus has been the slogan "it is forbidden to forbid" and on the destruction of what their fathers stood for. Unfortunately the result has been far from brilliant...steadily increasing and massive unemployment, declining relative wealth of the nation, cultural chaos and growing popular anger at being ignored by the highly educated Numbskulls who are ruling them without listening, who are telling them that they are wrong to fear loss of cultural identity and socio-economic slippage, who are ignorant if they feel that the areas outside of Paris are ignored by the ruling elite. Come-uppance time is very close indeed! The yellow vest revolt was but a foretaste of things to come....1789 was not pretty but it is the way French society changes political systems.
Judy while tolerance is important and the Buddhist sentiment “don’t try to enlighten the unenlightened.” apply here. It is important to see Roland’s final point that ignorance of biases subjects us to our illnesses and stupidity enables us to choose to continue to believe our illnesses are correct. I personally have all of the biases towards straight, white, males, after all I am one, but I can recognize people who are not me as worthy. I can extend them all the courtesies due any one of us because they are human. We are all on this same boat together. If only it were not so hard to work together. Working together requires dropping our blinders. Trumpistas don’t seem to want to work together. Generally speaking those who support his tRumpiness fit Roland’s mold. And generally speaking those of us who support the new President aren’t quite as subject to stupidity. That is the stupidity of unconscious bias.
Thank you David this is beautiful.
I agree with Roland, at least on the stance that most people who voted for Trump either represent a gang, openly hostile to all but white men, and privileged business owners protecting their business interests.
My only point of divergence is with Latino Latina Trump voters, especially Floridians. Most of those folks escaped either Cuba or El Salvador and the horrors of their autocrats. They were probably hit the hardest with anti-Democrat propaganda by telling them they would be voting for the kind of country they left.
Reaching that desperation point in people is the current Republican brand. And though many of us are savvy enough to see through them, there are so many people who connect to their fears with those triggering commercials. And Trump championed the art of pressing on those fears.
I bring this up to remind people that we have a long way to go to convince people that they don’t have to fear a Democratic government; that a government that invites everybody to participate is a better government than one which glorifies a single leader - a brand instead of substance.
Restoring a strengthened Fairness Doctrine will reduce the frequency and impact of fear-mongering campaign ads.
Agreed, though I think that’ll be a tough nut to crack. I think right now, we should demand that the politicians who serve is not lie to us for political gain. Everybody understands sarcasm and hyperbole, but if push a conspiracy theory or an outright lie that advances your career, you can be open to legal action and censure.
Heather’s Facebook chat yesterday included a very good explanation of the term “conservative”. It changed my perspective on the word and anyone here who hasn’t seen it would likely benefit from the information she shares.
Is there any other place to see this besides Facebook? Thanks.
These usually are uploaded to her YouTube channel, but on a delayed basis. Facebook provides the best immediacy.
Here's the link I have: https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=1311270322605117&ref=notif¬if_id=1613509309594136¬if_t=live_video_explicit
Thank you!
The previous reply that says they are uploaded to her YouTube channel but with a delay is exactly what I came back to say. Hope you are able to find it - the above referenced post included a link, as well.
Yes, Carol, you can subscribe, for $5 per month, to Heather's Letters From an American newsletter, which will appear in your inbox daily. Just Google it.
Hi Randy. She's asking about watching Heather's Chats on FB Watch Chats on Tuesdays at 4 and Thursdays at 1. :-)
oops
Could u elaborate on this?
Sorry, I caught up with yesterday's lecture. I think i get it now.
Republicans ARE not "conservative" anymore. The goalposts have moved, or better analogy, they replaced the goal post with flagpoles and call them goalposts.
To conserve, Lincoln meant conserving the Union and the organizing principles of our founders.
Today, pre Fascists are using the term "conservative" falsely. Like all authoritarian regimes, the corrupt the language to corrupt the opinions of the working class masses. I suspect the business class is in on it. But now legally corporations are people, just lacking souls. And just like in 1930's Germany, the conservatives losing power and credibility, bind up with the fascists to maintain power.
The only thing they wish to conserve is their power through voter suppression and since Jan 6th serious insurrection, they are promoting and encouraging mass political violence. To conserve their power they promote all government spending and agency's as wasteful and incompetent ( save for defense). They want to pay as little in taxes as possible. Today's Oligarchy, like those before it, already have plenty of resources to take care of themselves in everyway. The wealthy do not need Government for anything save for defense. This American Oligarchy sees any government as a threat to their continued wealth amassing. They want no government oversight for the environment, no financial regulation, no respect or increased funding for education and Public Health, and thus no respect for human dignity.
But Republicans are not pre Fascists now. They are Fascists. They are a cult to a dear leader. "Fascism is a patriarchal cult of the leader, who promises national restoration in the face of supposed humiliation by a treacherous and power-hungry global elite, who have encouraged minorities to destabilize the social order as part of their plan to dominate the “true nation,” and fold them into a global world government. The fascist leader is the father of his nation, in a very real sense like the father in a traditional patriarchal family. He mobilizes the masses by reminding them of what they supposedly have lost, and who it is that is responsible for that loss – the figures who control democracy itself, the elite; Nazi ideology is a species of fascism in which this global elite are Jews.
"The future promised by the fascist leader is one in which there are plentiful blue collar jobs, reflecting the manly ideals of hard work and strength. In Nazi propaganda, many white collar jobs, the domain of Jews – running department stores, banking – were for the idle. And the fascist nation’s heart and soul is the military – as Hitler writes, “[w]hat the German people owes to the army can be briefly summed up in a single word, to wit: everything.” The fascist future is a kind of restoration of a glorious past, but a modern version – replete with awesome technology that glorifies the nation to the world. The German V-2 rocket was a characteristic representation of Nazi might. The fascist future is, in the famous description of Jeffrey Herf, a kind of reactionary modernism."
https://www.justsecurity.org/74504/movie-at-the-ellipse-a-study-in-fascist-propaganda/
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Unconscious bias is a concept to be handled with extreme care. This seemingly irrefutable arguement....as you are not aware of being so biased and don't necessarily express it other than by lifestyle...can easily become the imposition of another's opinion in the place of your own and in the process you are being told you are stupid for not knowing you had it. How long will it take, with a weapon like this in people's hands before it becomes a method of control and limitation of free speech and thought, imposing the "official line" and acceptable wisdom of a segment of the population...elite or otherwise...It must be said that the Chinese State is particularly advanced along this line and quite adept at imposing its will in this way. Through "re-education" camps and citizenship "performance" monitoring and "nudging" in the right direction impenitent backsliders. With such powers, how long will it be before we follow them and start to punish those who don't want the official biases imposed upon their "unconscious ones and thius are pushed to the margins of society.
I agree with everything you said, Roland, but alas am not enamored of the ending. :) I hope instead of 'getting used to it,' we can proactively disempower it. Your description of the problem being a subconscious need to cling to a glorified past, and implying fear of a progressive future--one where straight white males are no longer dominant, but part of a diverse community--is brilliant. When we understand that, hopefully we can address and allay people's fears. To do so, we need to shine a light on the benefits of a better future. We need new stories. Ones that no longer glorify the rugged solo cowboy, but highlight the camaraderie of the diverse group of people sitting around the campfire together.
Yes! New Stories!!!
"Your description of the problem being a subconscious need to cling to a glorified past, and implying fear of a progressive future--one where straight white males are no longer dominant, but part of a diverse community--is brilliant."
Hello Imogene. You are kind, thank you. Please give yourself credit, along with everyone else here on HCR, because this is one of 3 places where I worked this all out. HCR, Greg Olear, and the original progressive teacher and mentor, my wife.
My science-fiction-future-society-story-in-development has no cowboys, no loners, only teams. Well, I take it back, one character was raised in cowboy country, a conservative state, but he is there to prove the point that the future of society is in egalitarian teamwork. He is there to bring along all the people in society he represents.
Much of what you say, Roland, is true. Sadly, these divisions run deep and provide a rich soil for the growth of authoritarianism. The forty-three Senators who voted for acquittal made an unequivocal endorsement of a dictator who would seize power and negate our votes, in a heartbeat.
For me the key issue is: what is our path to be, to maintain and grow equality and democracy? It is easy to rouse a crowd with hatred and that is what we have witnessed and there will be more.
How do we stand and gain ground. Clearly we need a constant drumbeat of "vote and serve", "vote and serve." Our daily dialogue with our neighbors must reflect this.
But please let's not fall into the same trap as the "Movement Conservatives" and divide our country into what" Saints and Scum? Let's build the awareness and the power of the solid majority and, whenever possible, chip away at the iceberg (90% underwater) of division, racism and hatred.
At first glance perhaps it looks like I’m being divisive. But actually I love my father very much, even though in some major ways we are definitely not on the same page. I got fortunate with both of my sisters, all three of us *are* on the same page re: politics and society. I work with truck drivers and warehouse guys ((and the occasional gal)). Vast majority are Trumpsters. Oh well. Probably 80% of the people I work with are Trumpsters. We are all cut from the same cloth, are we not? Love thy neighbor as thyself because thy neighbor is thyself. The distinction between self and other is an illusion. We are all facets of one huge gem.
Roland, you've definitely launched a fire storm here.
First, I'm going to challenge you on the Germans. They too have the problems we do. Right-wing extremist, racist attitudes about select foreign groups, etc. What they have done, is made every high school student visit a concentration camp for a day. They have universal conscription. And, they stammtisch where people can meet in informal meetings talk civilly about the issues of the day. Too bad we don't follow that model in this country.
Second, I'm a Christian in a national prominent denomination that supports equal rights for all people, support women in leadership roles, supports gay rights, supports social justice, etc. They may have a different view on abortion, but they're not against planned parenthood. Nor charity. Nor taking care of their neighbors and members of the congregation. When Covid hit, many of our congregation received the Covid relief checks and donated it to a church fund to help our less fortunate members and when they wasn't needed, helped out those in our community. That's the Christianity I belong too and frankly I am tired of reading people chastising the faith when they apparently know so little about the faith except what they read/hear from media pundits. True, there are those "fundamentalist" who believe what you say. But, they don't set the tone for a majority of Christian congregations in this country, but they do make great stories for the media.
There's hope for me yet! ❤
Always!
So I'm not a clueless dummy bashing Christians. I am a moral person who is opposed to Christians supporting a world-class criminal and serial sex offender. If you are Mike Pence, there is something wrong with your moral code.
The long message "Ok, challenge away!" is 1st, this "clueless dummy" post is 2nd.
Thank You for this.
"First, I'm going to challenge you on the Germans"
Ok, challenge away!
My knowledge of Germans is dated, I lived there in the 70s, my parents were born there in the 1930s. I did phrase that statement carefully, because I can't say I know for sure that Germans made more progress since the 1940s than Americans since the Civil War. It's a conversation starter. But given how right-wing our society is, given that close to 40% of America favors Trump, I have to give the Germans the edge. They are more progressive than we are, or so it seems, again I am not current. Our European-based commenters here, like Stuart and R Dooley and Gailee and our newcomers from the UK, + Daria in Mexico, and our resident scholars, could provide more substantive arguments. I am certainly open to being educated.
"Second, I'm a Christian..."
Well, Larry, you are certainly my kind of Christian!! Unitarian Universalism (UU) goes against the grain of most Christian denominations, many of which are rooted in the past and/or rooted in superstition, old beliefs that have not caught up with current social reality. Obviously I do not include enlightened Christian faith in my generalization about Mike Pence. Joe Biden is Catholic, but so far he is magnificent. Barack and Michelle Obama went to church, naturally I wouldn't include them either in my sweeping generalization. I know the California Catholic church, which has Franciscan and Jesuit roots, is excellent and fascinating in many ways, my wife is linked in to a whole network of Italian-heritage Catholics in the SF Bay Area. They are awesome people.
Let me say that I don't get my opinions about Christianity from the media, nor are my opinions superficial or ill-informed. I like to speak definitely and forcefully only when I have knowledge and experience to back it up. My father was raised Roman Catholic in Bavaria, so that's my whole paternal side. My sisters and me went to Sunday school during my elementary school years at a Lutheran church in the San Francisco Bay Area, he was making a concession to my mom. I have been to family seders and bar mitzvahs in high school in Germany (remember, Joshua was a Jew). I visited many different Christian churches over the years, because I was curious, and searching. At one point, believe it or not, I applied to Yale Divinity School and received a full scholarship offer because of the entrance interview where me and the interviewer discussed M. Scott Peck. I decided not to go that path, turned down the offer, but not before I had to choose a denomination as part of the entrance requirements. UU in Boston. I have studied the roots and history of the LDS church going all the way back to a book report in elementary school. I happen to know that Joseph Smith was inspired by a vision of the emerald tablets. I have an excellent if dated book called Extraordinary Groups by Kephart and Gellner that is fascinating, talks about JW, LDS, Shakerism, Old World Amish, and other religious groups in America. The LDS Church is the fastest growing religion in the world, with intriguing origins. I study the origins, those same Emerald Tablets of Thoth.
It is the origins of religions that interests me, because the founders are inspired individuals, bringing us something special. I have unconventional views on this subject, views that would be controversial even here. I think Joshua really did walk on water and turn water into wine. I don't think those stories were made up after the fact by starry-eyed devotees, because the various original "gospels" agree on certain points like this one. In my mind, there are certain exceptional individuals, men and women both, who have skills-abilities that the rest of us have forgotten. Carlos Castaneda wrote about the Huichol tradition, and his mentors Don Juan and Don Genaro were able to do many of the same magical things Joshua is purported to have done. These exceptional individuals bring with them a light which we could all benefit from, an enlightened view. Unfortunately but predictably, events like the Council of Nicaea tend to dilute and distort the purity of the original message, hence superstition becomes a factor over time.
I have read every historical account of Joshua and his life I could find (but not in the last several decades), from Biblical gospels to Urantia Book. Even The Da Vinci Code. Was Mary from Magdala the wife of Joshua? That is a wide open question, and you wouldn't have to work hard to persuade me that her life was X-ed out because of sexism.
All that investigative work aside, imo Joshua's Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and every great religion drinks from the same well. Mitra. Zoroaster. We are being shown who we are. We are being shown a better way to think and to behave and to live. Francis of Assisi. My patron saint, because I was born in St. Francis Memorial Hospital in San Francisco. Be kind to others. Help those in need. Treat your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others. I am an Eagle Scout, and what hooked me into Scouting is the ethics, the motto, the moral code. I believe that morality and ethics and basic humanity rules the world of society, and every person, Christian or religious or non-religious, is equal in the eyes of the Goddess and the Divine and deserves utmost care.
Roland, thanks for sharing this. It helps understand your point of view. Did your parents leave before the war or after? Have read alot about Nazi Germany, am writing my own fiction book/story about German POWs in the US during the war, etc. My effort was to understand how a nation of civilized people could allow what they did to the Jews and others. Then, I see similar leaning in our country and it makes me angry.
As for religion, glad we have a similar view as to what Christian is supposed to be but is more often failed by man than promoted by its believers. But, I've learned that the best way to "spread" the faith isn't by pontificating about the teachings as much as demonstrating them. It's worked for me.
Again, thanks for this conversation.
btw Larry I have commented extensively here on HCR and also on Greg Olear about the Trump and Hitler connection. Trump has read and studied Hitler, a 1941 book in English that was given to him. Trump's practices imitated Hitler's. That has been a frequent point of discussion here on HCR. Whenever anyone talks Hitler's Germany and mentions Trump, they are speaking my language, and incidentally my first language was German. My paternal side of the family is the most Hitler-friendly of the 2 sides, although I have been told that my paternal grandfather did not like Hitler. However, I think he was in the minority in that society, he was certainly in the minority in my dad's family.
Yes. Demonstrate. Model.
I live not far from Beale AFB, which used to be “Camp Beale,” I’ve heard some rumored stories about German POWs held there.
My parents were born early 1930s, front row seat for the entire show. They emigrated to the US in the ‘50s. They met in SF, that’s my birthplace.
CORRECTION. The Germans no longer have conscription. They stopped it in 2011, but Merkel had considered bringing it back when the military wasn't reaching its recruiting goals.
Much wisdom here. I can imagine certain of Roland's characters expressing some similar views.
Hmmm, thought provoking reply as usual. I rant here on HCR, and Greg Olear and Lucian Truscott and in my journal. I rant when I am hashing out concepts in the story, just to myself and a few other people. But so far none of my characters have ranted in the book.
Actually only one of my characters is an American who grew up in a conservative, Republican state. My work here on that subject is helping me be able to write this character intelligently, without sounding like an ignoramus. Although my dad is an arch conservative, my schooling is in California and Germany, progressive training. I really needed to understand this part of society to write this character plausibly and powerfully. I want certain people to identify with him with ease.
Having been born ad raised in Alabama and a self-described recovering racist, let me help you with understanding that part of society. In your original post, in reference to racists, you wrote: "You don’t have the guts or the integrity to admit it to yourself, . . ." When your very existence, much like the air you breath, is racist, you don't comprehend that YOU are part of the problem so there is nothing to admit. When challenging their world view, a racist will not admit to something they have no foundation to comprehend.
So true, Kelly! If we're really honest, we are all recovering racists. Ibram X. Kendi was on Brene Brown's podcast last summer. He had this to say about how we are all immersed in racism just by virtue of growing up in the U.S. “If we talk about racist ideas…..to grow up in America is to grow up with racist ideas constantly being rained on your head and you have no umbrella and you don’t even know… that you’re wet with those racist ideas…because those racist ideas cause you to think that you’re dry.”
We don't get let off the hook, though, just because we can't avoid the environment in which we are raised. Once we know better, we must be better.
Yes! Love Brene Brown. Need to make time to listen to her Podcasts. I'm not sure when, exactly, I started describing myself as a "recovering racist" but it's been awhile. My oldest grandchild is 7 so sometime since then. I was like Debby Irving, who wrote Waking Up White. I thought I wasn't racist and would have denied it but I now recognize that, even today, I have embedded thoughts that I have to reprogram. I feel I have made huge leaps in progress and try to make others aware. Kendi has it right!