JL, I was there in '56 as a toddler (but my Dad, a Diplomat and former Intelligence Officer
with SOE in WWII was engaged). I was there in '68 as a teenager. And I was next door as an old fart in Feb. 2022. I've seen too much, to believe in fairy tales, and easy struggles.
When Russia kills anyone who disagreed with their dictatorship. The …
JL, I was there in '56 as a toddler (but my Dad, a Diplomat and former Intelligence Officer
with SOE in WWII was engaged). I was there in '68 as a teenager. And I was next door as an old fart in Feb. 2022. I've seen too much, to believe in fairy tales, and easy struggles.
When Russia kills anyone who disagreed with their dictatorship. The traitors like Tucker Carlson, Rudy Giuliani, etc. etc. are already at work here with force and terror. My ancestors fled Russia in 1923 when dictators tried to impose totalitarianism on them, but many cousins died or went to the Gulag for 40, 50, 60 years when they didn't fight or leave.
The seemingly "easy part" would be for enough people to focus and think about the choice to empower or reject or sit out the transition to a "wannabee dictator". But somehow, exactly that seems to be the hard part.
Yes, it’s going to be very hard. For Republicans, cruelty is the point. There are upwards of 74 million US citizens who endorse that strategy and vote to make it the law of the land (although “law” seems like too noble a concept to describe the machinations of Orbsn acolytes).
Here’s the issue as I see it. MAGA Republicans can think all they want, but as Americans they’ve never lived it. Go ask any Eastern European how much they enjoyed totalitarian rule under the Jack boot of the Soviets. Nazi Germany where school kids were encouraged to denounce their parents if they didn’t agree with Hitler. The problem is, getting totalitarian rule is much easier than getting rid of it. Once these MAGA fools realize what they’ve done, it’s too late.
I recently read Joanne D. Gilbert's book "A victory for Miriam: the little Jewish girl who defied the Nazis". While the focus is evasion of Nazi soldiers etc, there are a number of sectors in which Miriam Brysk describes living in the Russian sectors she and her parents ended up in several times during their flight from the Nazis. The only difference from the Nazis is that they weren't sending Jews to be murdered. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/48920056-a-victory-for-miriam
Thanks, Joanne, subscriber here I think, or on another substack I subscribe to. After you mentioned your books, I ordered "A Victory for Miriam" and downloaded "Women of Valor" for my Christmas travel reading.
Rickey, do me a favor. Take a pause from reading the Applebaum (can you say Russiaphobe? Sure you can!) book and watch the following three-way interview on Gaza/Israel and Ukraine/Russia. There will probably be things said that you don’t agree with, but if you are at all curious about the world outside of the American narrative, you might also learn something that you didn’t fully grasp before. The interview is slightly over an hour and a half, but well worth it. Peace, t
Thanks Tom, but we will have to disagree on Applebaum. Red Famine is an in depth history of Ukraine and Russia. Then you can add Timothy Snyder in the mix. IF you also want to pick up something beyond the American narrative try some Naomi Klein, and the book Guns, Germs, and Steel. Lots of history about where this all leads.
It’s an in-depth look at one period of history, in which Applebaum took primary source material and then layered her anti-Russian American propagandist bias on it. Think Victoria Nuland channeling Bandera, post-2014 coup. See this Amazon review - “Reviewed in the United States on October 20, 2017
Having worked through Conquest's 'Harvest of Sorrows' and Wheatcroft and Davies' 'The Years of Hunger', I am trying to work out whether it's worth taking up this book.
Based on the reviews, it doesn't seem so.
Wheatcroft and Davies have already worked through what the Soviet authorities in Kyiv and Moscow knew and what they did (and didn't do) based on the archival documents. The evidence accepted by the 97% on the 1932-33 famine is that millions died, especially across Ukraine, the Kuban and into Kazakhstan, that local authorities were ruthless in methods to secure grain, and that the death toll was a combination of poor weather and an unfinished and ongoing struggle with a peasantry that were seen as hostile to Moscow, exacerbated if not primarily caused by a lack of good, trustworthy and timely information about conditions on the ground.
To take this and brand the famine "Stalin's War on Ukraine" is a highly political move. Perhaps Applebaum's thesis is more nuanced than her title suggests, but in the context of current international relations between Russia, Ukraine and the US with journalists like Applebaum committed to opposing Moscow's 'campaigns of misinformation', it's hard not to see this book as another front in such a war. Applebaum thus seems predisposed to approach this historical fact with a particular, not-too-hidden, agenda that concurs with the line that the Ukrainian state has been trying to push since 1991 -- that this tragic famine was in fact a genocide.
To call this famine a war suggests it was man-made, while the regular famines across Russia preceding it and that year's climactic conditions suggest otherwise. To call it Stalin's war would seem to neglect the role of everyone else, including Russians and Ukrainians, and the longstanding antagonisms between Party and peasantry. To call it a war on Ukraine does no justice to half of the casualties who neither lived in Ukraine nor spoke Ukrainian - especially in Kazakhstan and southern Russia.
My suggestion to those here would be to read instead Wheatcroft and Davies' Years of Hunger. Yes, it will be considerably drier, but it's chock full of primary documents which allow you to make your own judgement based on the available evidence.”
No to Snyder. Have read all of Klein’s books, and G,G&S. I’m not saying Red Famine isn’t factual, I’m saying Applebaum is a neo-con Russiaphobe. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2NJrZtJxzY
I just asked you to take a pause and watch the interview I linked. Did you?
Yes. My take is that American policy is dictated by American business interest. Take Iran, then South American, Southeast Asia. All dictated by the fear of communism. Prequel -Rachel Maddow.
It is good to see how well read you are so it forms a foundation of being able to discuss and disagree.
The interview and the young man's confrontation is admirable. I wish Ann had invited him to meet with her for a full discussion. As far as her views, do not disregard her views on Russia come from experience. Being a Polish resident she has heard of the Russian atrocities. I would say that experience influences her viewpoints.
While I appreciate the referral, I am not too impressed with the source. I am not sure these guys realize that this kind of journalism would have them in jail in Russia or now Hungary.
Calling her a Russiaphobe, is in my humble opinion, naive as i explained. She has much more knowledge about this than we do. She lives in Poland as well as the U.S. That first hand experience cannot be discounted. Putin is a soviet communist at heart. Soviet communist had one goal at heart - domination at all costs. Her book brings that to light.
Have a mountain of holiday food prep to do today. Will reply this evening.
Ok, finally off my feet. I’m sure Applebaum’s views do come from experience. I’m sure they also come from a belief system coming out of that experience that is constantly reinforced by the people she surrounds herself with, who are, sorry, Russiaphobes. No different than a religious fundamentalist has experiences which led them on that path, and then had a belief system reinforced by other fundamentalists.
America has been Russiaphobic since 1917. It ebbs and flows in intensity, but never, ever, is allowed to die. As to Applebaum knowing more than we do, that has nothing to do whether her judgement vis a vis U.S. policy towards Russia is reasoned or logical, much less in the best interest of the U.S. as regards our own national security. Plenty of smart people voted/lobbied for the Iraq War, voted/lobbied for the proxy war in Ukraine, voted/lobbied to keeping funding a genocide by Israel in Gaza, all of which were/are inherently stupid.
As to the communist Soviets having one goal of domination. So what? Not excusing any of the atrocities committed by them post-WWII, but any cursory look at their history will tell you that paranoia over national security will drive abhorrent behavior by those in power; see America post-9/11 torture, etc. We (the CIA) drove a lot of Stalin’s paranoia; couple that with their overriding fear of being overthrown/undermined by the West since 1917, being invaded by outside forces and having millions dead from WWII(Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were pimples compared to that stage four skin cancer), and if one understood the mindset, pushing NATO membership on Ukraine, or letting them think it was a possibility, was absurd.
As to the conversation I linked, it is irrelevant whether or not the individuals would be arrested in Russia or Hungary. What matters is the content. You were not ‘impressed with the source’. Specifically, why or why not? Because they weren’t regurgitating American propaganda on Ukraine or Gaza?
Back to Applebaum. I’m sure she is a decent writer. Doesn’t mean she can’t be wrong. I love Jane Mayer; her book ‘Dark Money’, is in my Top Twenty public policy books if you want to understand why America is circling the drain. But that doesn’t mean she can’t be right about the influence of money on our politics and dead wrong when it comes to Russiagate, and double down on that wrong to deflect from the Bidens/Ukraine. See the link below.
JL, I was there in '56 as a toddler (but my Dad, a Diplomat and former Intelligence Officer
with SOE in WWII was engaged). I was there in '68 as a teenager. And I was next door as an old fart in Feb. 2022. I've seen too much, to believe in fairy tales, and easy struggles.
When Russia kills anyone who disagreed with their dictatorship. The traitors like Tucker Carlson, Rudy Giuliani, etc. etc. are already at work here with force and terror. My ancestors fled Russia in 1923 when dictators tried to impose totalitarianism on them, but many cousins died or went to the Gulag for 40, 50, 60 years when they didn't fight or leave.
The seemingly "easy part" would be for enough people to focus and think about the choice to empower or reject or sit out the transition to a "wannabee dictator". But somehow, exactly that seems to be the hard part.
Yes, it’s going to be very hard. For Republicans, cruelty is the point. There are upwards of 74 million US citizens who endorse that strategy and vote to make it the law of the land (although “law” seems like too noble a concept to describe the machinations of Orbsn acolytes).
Here’s the issue as I see it. MAGA Republicans can think all they want, but as Americans they’ve never lived it. Go ask any Eastern European how much they enjoyed totalitarian rule under the Jack boot of the Soviets. Nazi Germany where school kids were encouraged to denounce their parents if they didn’t agree with Hitler. The problem is, getting totalitarian rule is much easier than getting rid of it. Once these MAGA fools realize what they’ve done, it’s too late.
Exactly. Or the ughuirs in China or the Rohingya in Myanmar or thearmenians or Kurds in Türkiye or …
I recently read Joanne D. Gilbert's book "A victory for Miriam: the little Jewish girl who defied the Nazis". While the focus is evasion of Nazi soldiers etc, there are a number of sectors in which Miriam Brysk describes living in the Russian sectors she and her parents ended up in several times during their flight from the Nazis. The only difference from the Nazis is that they weren't sending Jews to be murdered. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/48920056-a-victory-for-miriam
Thanks, Joanne, subscriber here I think, or on another substack I subscribe to. After you mentioned your books, I ordered "A Victory for Miriam" and downloaded "Women of Valor" for my Christmas travel reading.
I am currently engrossed in Red Famine by Anne Applebaum about Ukraine and the tragedy of Soviet policies on the Ukrainians.
I’m reading Timothy Snyder’s Bloodlands, same subject. I find that I can only read it in small bites, because it’s so horrifying.
Rickey, do me a favor. Take a pause from reading the Applebaum (can you say Russiaphobe? Sure you can!) book and watch the following three-way interview on Gaza/Israel and Ukraine/Russia. There will probably be things said that you don’t agree with, but if you are at all curious about the world outside of the American narrative, you might also learn something that you didn’t fully grasp before. The interview is slightly over an hour and a half, but well worth it. Peace, t
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L59yXaPaXI&t=5074s
Thanks Tom, but we will have to disagree on Applebaum. Red Famine is an in depth history of Ukraine and Russia. Then you can add Timothy Snyder in the mix. IF you also want to pick up something beyond the American narrative try some Naomi Klein, and the book Guns, Germs, and Steel. Lots of history about where this all leads.
It’s an in-depth look at one period of history, in which Applebaum took primary source material and then layered her anti-Russian American propagandist bias on it. Think Victoria Nuland channeling Bandera, post-2014 coup. See this Amazon review - “Reviewed in the United States on October 20, 2017
Having worked through Conquest's 'Harvest of Sorrows' and Wheatcroft and Davies' 'The Years of Hunger', I am trying to work out whether it's worth taking up this book.
Based on the reviews, it doesn't seem so.
Wheatcroft and Davies have already worked through what the Soviet authorities in Kyiv and Moscow knew and what they did (and didn't do) based on the archival documents. The evidence accepted by the 97% on the 1932-33 famine is that millions died, especially across Ukraine, the Kuban and into Kazakhstan, that local authorities were ruthless in methods to secure grain, and that the death toll was a combination of poor weather and an unfinished and ongoing struggle with a peasantry that were seen as hostile to Moscow, exacerbated if not primarily caused by a lack of good, trustworthy and timely information about conditions on the ground.
To take this and brand the famine "Stalin's War on Ukraine" is a highly political move. Perhaps Applebaum's thesis is more nuanced than her title suggests, but in the context of current international relations between Russia, Ukraine and the US with journalists like Applebaum committed to opposing Moscow's 'campaigns of misinformation', it's hard not to see this book as another front in such a war. Applebaum thus seems predisposed to approach this historical fact with a particular, not-too-hidden, agenda that concurs with the line that the Ukrainian state has been trying to push since 1991 -- that this tragic famine was in fact a genocide.
To call this famine a war suggests it was man-made, while the regular famines across Russia preceding it and that year's climactic conditions suggest otherwise. To call it Stalin's war would seem to neglect the role of everyone else, including Russians and Ukrainians, and the longstanding antagonisms between Party and peasantry. To call it a war on Ukraine does no justice to half of the casualties who neither lived in Ukraine nor spoke Ukrainian - especially in Kazakhstan and southern Russia.
My suggestion to those here would be to read instead Wheatcroft and Davies' Years of Hunger. Yes, it will be considerably drier, but it's chock full of primary documents which allow you to make your own judgement based on the available evidence.”
No to Snyder. Have read all of Klein’s books, and G,G&S. I’m not saying Red Famine isn’t factual, I’m saying Applebaum is a neo-con Russiaphobe. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2NJrZtJxzY
I just asked you to take a pause and watch the interview I linked. Did you?
Yes. My take is that American policy is dictated by American business interest. Take Iran, then South American, Southeast Asia. All dictated by the fear of communism. Prequel -Rachel Maddow.
It is good to see how well read you are so it forms a foundation of being able to discuss and disagree.
The interview and the young man's confrontation is admirable. I wish Ann had invited him to meet with her for a full discussion. As far as her views, do not disregard her views on Russia come from experience. Being a Polish resident she has heard of the Russian atrocities. I would say that experience influences her viewpoints.
While I appreciate the referral, I am not too impressed with the source. I am not sure these guys realize that this kind of journalism would have them in jail in Russia or now Hungary.
Calling her a Russiaphobe, is in my humble opinion, naive as i explained. She has much more knowledge about this than we do. She lives in Poland as well as the U.S. That first hand experience cannot be discounted. Putin is a soviet communist at heart. Soviet communist had one goal at heart - domination at all costs. Her book brings that to light.
Have a mountain of holiday food prep to do today. Will reply this evening.
Ok, finally off my feet. I’m sure Applebaum’s views do come from experience. I’m sure they also come from a belief system coming out of that experience that is constantly reinforced by the people she surrounds herself with, who are, sorry, Russiaphobes. No different than a religious fundamentalist has experiences which led them on that path, and then had a belief system reinforced by other fundamentalists.
America has been Russiaphobic since 1917. It ebbs and flows in intensity, but never, ever, is allowed to die. As to Applebaum knowing more than we do, that has nothing to do whether her judgement vis a vis U.S. policy towards Russia is reasoned or logical, much less in the best interest of the U.S. as regards our own national security. Plenty of smart people voted/lobbied for the Iraq War, voted/lobbied for the proxy war in Ukraine, voted/lobbied to keeping funding a genocide by Israel in Gaza, all of which were/are inherently stupid.
As to the communist Soviets having one goal of domination. So what? Not excusing any of the atrocities committed by them post-WWII, but any cursory look at their history will tell you that paranoia over national security will drive abhorrent behavior by those in power; see America post-9/11 torture, etc. We (the CIA) drove a lot of Stalin’s paranoia; couple that with their overriding fear of being overthrown/undermined by the West since 1917, being invaded by outside forces and having millions dead from WWII(Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were pimples compared to that stage four skin cancer), and if one understood the mindset, pushing NATO membership on Ukraine, or letting them think it was a possibility, was absurd.
As to the conversation I linked, it is irrelevant whether or not the individuals would be arrested in Russia or Hungary. What matters is the content. You were not ‘impressed with the source’. Specifically, why or why not? Because they weren’t regurgitating American propaganda on Ukraine or Gaza?
Back to Applebaum. I’m sure she is a decent writer. Doesn’t mean she can’t be wrong. I love Jane Mayer; her book ‘Dark Money’, is in my Top Twenty public policy books if you want to understand why America is circling the drain. But that doesn’t mean she can’t be right about the influence of money on our politics and dead wrong when it comes to Russiagate, and double down on that wrong to deflect from the Bidens/Ukraine. See the link below.
https://consortiumnews.com/2023/12/23/when-the-new-yorker-tried-to-preempt-a-future-biden-impeachment/?eType=EmailBlastContent&eId=872556ed-bc6d-4f25-b4ba-3e5eb6fc6f2a