I might say it a bit differently, more like Liz Cheney.
All who remember the day Trump attempted to overthrow the government, which resulted in both death and destruction, will do our best to insure proper consequences are applied to those who both led the insurrection and supported it.
I might say it a bit differently, more like Liz Cheney.
All who remember the day Trump attempted to overthrow the government, which resulted in both death and destruction, will do our best to insure proper consequences are applied to those who both led the insurrection and supported it.
Now. That's a tall order in a country where prosecuting rich, white men has historically been, and remains, taboo.
However, consequences are what must be applied to the perpetrators. If not, the United States will cease as a Democracy. Sooner or later.
Just as Liz Cheney indicated yesterday.
Honestly, it really is too bad George Washington and John Adams are no longer around. I am guessing if they were, Trump would have already experienced said consequences by getting up close and personal with a rope.
I was thinking last night that these coming prosecutions of rich white men are a step along the path of "white privilege" coming to an end. Bout time. Justice has been waiting in the wings to make an entrance.
Side note: Mike Pence was the one who ordered the National Guard to activate. That was only supposed to have been the right of POTUS. Right there Mike Pence activated Amendment 25 and took the President's authority when the President was unable (his big ego got in the way) to act. No vote by cabinet and others in the administration. Pence did what needed to be done to protect lives and most importantly our democratic republic.
Yes, after four years crawling and mewling at Trump's feet to ably do Trump's every last bidding, Pence, at the end, found something he was not comfortable doing.
Overthrowing our government with lies and violence.
Pence's bar for "fed up" was pretty high though, to be honest.
Yup. And remember that Trump had already given up the game a couple days earlier when he blinked in face of the DOJ mass resignation threat. That was the moment he'd shown himself too cowardly to play it out, and from that point all his minions and spawn were well aware that they were on their own. None were willing to stick their necks any further out (tho Stone made a pretty good game out of it while seeming to straddle the legality line).
Pence was simply the most visible of the minions saying "nope, nope, nope...
Well, he had more and closer contact with the Swamp Thang than I ever will, so there's that. Maybe Pence is so embedded in the dreck that is Trump's ecosystem that he can't tell how bad it really is...
WAY TOO LITTLE WAY TOO LATE imho. Heard last night this disgusting person voice tfg should not be prosecuted by DOJ. I need a shower after listening to his smarmy voice. Gives me the creeps.
Well, just enough, and just in the nick of time, but everything else he supported was always revolting. I can’t imagine him as President. Please, God, no!
I have a sudden memory picture: tfg awarding a medal to a service dog. He can't stroke the dog, the dog knows it. Dog accepts a caress from Pence, in the background.
Just because Pence refused to overthrow our government and Cheney helped investigate Trump doesn’t mean they are good people who should have a hand in running our government. Pence is a Christian Nationalist and Cheney opposed Biden every step of the way. If Pence and Cheney ride a popular wave into the Whitehouse, the results will be the same as if Trump got elected, although not so obvious. At least those two would take away our rights politely.
Bout time, Sally. White MALE privilege. And your comment about Pence activating the National Guard reminded me of seeing on film Nancy Pelosi trying every which way to get help ar the Capitol on that historic day. She was awesome. Thank you for your comments.
I have been thinking about white privilege too. This can be (and will be, I hope!) a crack in that privilege. And through that Crack, may creep in TRUE equal justice under the law, though it's a very long road yet to be travelled.
Let's hope. There are many white males who voted for Trump because he was a businessman and not a Dem. And they had the privilege to be able to overlook Trump's treatment of women. Never mind they have a mother, grandmother, wife, daughter(s). Other things are more important. This is a problem for me.
George Washington spent, what? EIGHT years (or thereabout) living in a tent, marching, leading soldiers, slitting throats and killing British solidiers to bring self rule to these shores?
Do you think Washington would put up with a spoiled, rich kid trying to undo his eight years of slogging hard work to kick the British out?
Not hardly. Washington would have had Trump hanging by the end of the day of January 06, 2021.
And it was true he was impeached by the House for "inciting an insurrection". And a majority of Senators voted to impeach him also......was it two thirds?
You've raised the question of capital punishment. As a nation, we have moved away from recognizing execution as legitimate. I believe a significant portion of that shift was based on innocent men and women being executed, pointing to a systemic corruption in the process of sentencing and performing executions.
We've never addressed the issue of when execution is appropriate, and when it is NECESSARY.
If you go back to the Greeks, they had a tendency of completing a conquest by killing the king, his wife, his lovers, his extended family, and ALL of his offspring, even the infants. The point was to leave no legitimate claim to power still living.
The penalty for treason has rarely been anything less than death or exile, and exile never worked all that well. Look at Napoleon.
Trump has committed a coup. He has already promised to do it again.
If there is any justification for execution, I believe it exists in the case of Trump.
And I need to be very clear about something. I'm not calling for Trump's death, I'm calling for his execution. There is a profound difference. Execution can only occur as part of a legal process, and carries the entire weight of the Rule of Law. Death by any other means isn't the same thing at all.
I am against the death penalty. Even for Trumpty Dumpty. Let him rot for the rest of his pathetic little life in a prison or in his self-made prison called his mind. If he even has one.
Can you articulate WHY you are opposed? Not looking for an argument, just an explanation.
I am also generally opposed to the death penalty, because it is so subject to misuse, particularly in an administrative state like the one we have. There is no real connection between the execution and the victims of the crime that incurs the penalty, and the administrators are often corrupt: you need look no further than the lynch mobs (extra-legal) shading into police brutality shading into bureaucratic mishandling.
That said, there are cases where it seems to me both appropriate and even necessary. Trump is a case in point. He will continue to drive insurrection from prison, unless the terms of his sentence also silence his public voice. Even then, "ghost writers" claiming to be Trump will rise up, and disinformation programs. Imagine a suddenly-far-more-intelligent "Trump" addressing his loyalists from behind the gray walls of his prison, made up of an entire team of propagandists. A "president-in-exile" can be at least as dangerous to the Republic as one in power.
Dear Joseph, I appreciate your question. I think because I was raised to treasure all life, I lived through the terrible (and I think very wrong) execution of the Rosenbergs during the Cold War, the Sacco and Vanzetti case was discussed at our dinner table with the horror of lynching and murder of Black, Jewish and Catholic citizens in the south, made me feel strongly the death penalty accomplishes NOTHING. If Dump is executed for treason, he will become a permanent presence in our history. Let him rot in prison, or a “prison” at Merde A Lardo, as hard as that is to envision. He and his goons and enablers have broken laws and broken all trust in the process of fairness. In view of that, he deserves to be punished. I am not sure what else to say….have a lovely holiday.
I think in essence we agree on the outcome. Executing Trump makes him a permanent fixture in our national history. That is one thing (perhaps the only thing) the death penalty actually does accomplish. Which is certainly not "nothing."
I would heartily agree that our use of it as a nation has been careless, unconscious, and utterly immoral in many, many cases. I'd even agree that perhaps, as a nation, that blatant carelessness is a clear indication that we should not use it at all: like an alcoholic who cannot take a drink safely, the United States cannot take one of its citizens' lives safely. I would accept that argument.
Where we differ, I think, is whether there is sometimes a NEED for the state to end a life. There are not many such cases, in my opinion. Certainly not using it as a "worse" and "more scary" penalty as a deterrent. I think that is where our nation never got it right.
The reason for the state to execute someone is specifically to write that someone INTO OUR HISTORY, as a symbolic act. It is specifically to ensure that the person is never forgotten, and -- as I started off this whole thread -- never forgiven. They represent something that marks a clear line in the sand, that says, "Do this, and we will end you."
Donald Trump declared war on the United States. He said, "Your elections are stupid, your democratic process is stupid, and I will fix that by taking control of it and destroying your entire form of government, replacing it with a hero(ME)-worshipping Imperium." He is still at war with the US. Only a fool will feel safe from him until after he is dead.
I don't think we can afford to forget him, as a nation. Benedict Arnold was a nobody by comparison.
“At the British surrender at Yorktown, Benedict Arnold was burned in effigy and his name has since become synonymous with traitor. The British didn't treat him very well after the war either. After prevailing in a libel action, he was awarded only a nominal amount because his reputation was already so tarnished.” Benedict Donald. That is who Dump will be remembered as: a traitor and criminal. I’ll go with that, rather than killing an already dead man.
Joseph,
I might say it a bit differently, more like Liz Cheney.
All who remember the day Trump attempted to overthrow the government, which resulted in both death and destruction, will do our best to insure proper consequences are applied to those who both led the insurrection and supported it.
Now. That's a tall order in a country where prosecuting rich, white men has historically been, and remains, taboo.
However, consequences are what must be applied to the perpetrators. If not, the United States will cease as a Democracy. Sooner or later.
Just as Liz Cheney indicated yesterday.
Honestly, it really is too bad George Washington and John Adams are no longer around. I am guessing if they were, Trump would have already experienced said consequences by getting up close and personal with a rope.
I was thinking last night that these coming prosecutions of rich white men are a step along the path of "white privilege" coming to an end. Bout time. Justice has been waiting in the wings to make an entrance.
Side note: Mike Pence was the one who ordered the National Guard to activate. That was only supposed to have been the right of POTUS. Right there Mike Pence activated Amendment 25 and took the President's authority when the President was unable (his big ego got in the way) to act. No vote by cabinet and others in the administration. Pence did what needed to be done to protect lives and most importantly our democratic republic.
Sally,
Yes, after four years crawling and mewling at Trump's feet to ably do Trump's every last bidding, Pence, at the end, found something he was not comfortable doing.
Overthrowing our government with lies and violence.
Pence's bar for "fed up" was pretty high though, to be honest.
Yup. And remember that Trump had already given up the game a couple days earlier when he blinked in face of the DOJ mass resignation threat. That was the moment he'd shown himself too cowardly to play it out, and from that point all his minions and spawn were well aware that they were on their own. None were willing to stick their necks any further out (tho Stone made a pretty good game out of it while seeming to straddle the legality line).
Pence was simply the most visible of the minions saying "nope, nope, nope...
It definitely doesn't qualify him to be president.
But last night I heard Pence say he hopes Trump is never charged...that the whole scenario is only Trump's "wrecklessness"......
Well, he had more and closer contact with the Swamp Thang than I ever will, so there's that. Maybe Pence is so embedded in the dreck that is Trump's ecosystem that he can't tell how bad it really is...
Pence - Too little, Too late in my opinion.
WAY TOO LITTLE WAY TOO LATE imho. Heard last night this disgusting person voice tfg should not be prosecuted by DOJ. I need a shower after listening to his smarmy voice. Gives me the creeps.
Well, just enough, and just in the nick of time, but everything else he supported was always revolting. I can’t imagine him as President. Please, God, no!
I have a sudden memory picture: tfg awarding a medal to a service dog. He can't stroke the dog, the dog knows it. Dog accepts a caress from Pence, in the background.
Just because Pence refused to overthrow our government and Cheney helped investigate Trump doesn’t mean they are good people who should have a hand in running our government. Pence is a Christian Nationalist and Cheney opposed Biden every step of the way. If Pence and Cheney ride a popular wave into the Whitehouse, the results will be the same as if Trump got elected, although not so obvious. At least those two would take away our rights politely.
Tom Pence and Cheney will be elected to the White House just after I am elected Pope. (I am not Catholic, but neither was Jesus.)
Bout time, Sally. White MALE privilege. And your comment about Pence activating the National Guard reminded me of seeing on film Nancy Pelosi trying every which way to get help ar the Capitol on that historic day. She was awesome. Thank you for your comments.
I have been thinking about white privilege too. This can be (and will be, I hope!) a crack in that privilege. And through that Crack, may creep in TRUE equal justice under the law, though it's a very long road yet to be travelled.
Let's hope. There are many white males who voted for Trump because he was a businessman and not a Dem. And they had the privilege to be able to overlook Trump's treatment of women. Never mind they have a mother, grandmother, wife, daughter(s). Other things are more important. This is a problem for me.
A businessman. How many bankruptcies? Where were his tax returns? "You're fired!"?
Exactly. That's what I said!
Don't count your chickens before they are hatched.
Pence is supporting Trump now.
I don't think Pence's support counts for much.
I didn't mean that Pence supports him for president but supports him in his efforts not to be punished.
excellent point
Sally Pence isn’t all bad, but I wouldn’t give a farthing for this pence.
Mike, I like that image….it made me laugh. George Washington, tall and stately, holding the noose over the wriggling, red faced, squealing 45. OMG.
George Washington spent, what? EIGHT years (or thereabout) living in a tent, marching, leading soldiers, slitting throats and killing British solidiers to bring self rule to these shores?
Do you think Washington would put up with a spoiled, rich kid trying to undo his eight years of slogging hard work to kick the British out?
Not hardly. Washington would have had Trump hanging by the end of the day of January 06, 2021.
That is exactly what not sentencing Trump, and his cohorts to long sentences means, The demise of democracy.
Love that last paragraph…
And it was true he was impeached by the House for "inciting an insurrection". And a majority of Senators voted to impeach him also......was it two thirds?
You've raised the question of capital punishment. As a nation, we have moved away from recognizing execution as legitimate. I believe a significant portion of that shift was based on innocent men and women being executed, pointing to a systemic corruption in the process of sentencing and performing executions.
We've never addressed the issue of when execution is appropriate, and when it is NECESSARY.
If you go back to the Greeks, they had a tendency of completing a conquest by killing the king, his wife, his lovers, his extended family, and ALL of his offspring, even the infants. The point was to leave no legitimate claim to power still living.
The penalty for treason has rarely been anything less than death or exile, and exile never worked all that well. Look at Napoleon.
Trump has committed a coup. He has already promised to do it again.
If there is any justification for execution, I believe it exists in the case of Trump.
And I need to be very clear about something. I'm not calling for Trump's death, I'm calling for his execution. There is a profound difference. Execution can only occur as part of a legal process, and carries the entire weight of the Rule of Law. Death by any other means isn't the same thing at all.
I am against the death penalty. Even for Trumpty Dumpty. Let him rot for the rest of his pathetic little life in a prison or in his self-made prison called his mind. If he even has one.
Can you articulate WHY you are opposed? Not looking for an argument, just an explanation.
I am also generally opposed to the death penalty, because it is so subject to misuse, particularly in an administrative state like the one we have. There is no real connection between the execution and the victims of the crime that incurs the penalty, and the administrators are often corrupt: you need look no further than the lynch mobs (extra-legal) shading into police brutality shading into bureaucratic mishandling.
That said, there are cases where it seems to me both appropriate and even necessary. Trump is a case in point. He will continue to drive insurrection from prison, unless the terms of his sentence also silence his public voice. Even then, "ghost writers" claiming to be Trump will rise up, and disinformation programs. Imagine a suddenly-far-more-intelligent "Trump" addressing his loyalists from behind the gray walls of his prison, made up of an entire team of propagandists. A "president-in-exile" can be at least as dangerous to the Republic as one in power.
Dear Joseph, I appreciate your question. I think because I was raised to treasure all life, I lived through the terrible (and I think very wrong) execution of the Rosenbergs during the Cold War, the Sacco and Vanzetti case was discussed at our dinner table with the horror of lynching and murder of Black, Jewish and Catholic citizens in the south, made me feel strongly the death penalty accomplishes NOTHING. If Dump is executed for treason, he will become a permanent presence in our history. Let him rot in prison, or a “prison” at Merde A Lardo, as hard as that is to envision. He and his goons and enablers have broken laws and broken all trust in the process of fairness. In view of that, he deserves to be punished. I am not sure what else to say….have a lovely holiday.
I think in essence we agree on the outcome. Executing Trump makes him a permanent fixture in our national history. That is one thing (perhaps the only thing) the death penalty actually does accomplish. Which is certainly not "nothing."
I would heartily agree that our use of it as a nation has been careless, unconscious, and utterly immoral in many, many cases. I'd even agree that perhaps, as a nation, that blatant carelessness is a clear indication that we should not use it at all: like an alcoholic who cannot take a drink safely, the United States cannot take one of its citizens' lives safely. I would accept that argument.
Where we differ, I think, is whether there is sometimes a NEED for the state to end a life. There are not many such cases, in my opinion. Certainly not using it as a "worse" and "more scary" penalty as a deterrent. I think that is where our nation never got it right.
The reason for the state to execute someone is specifically to write that someone INTO OUR HISTORY, as a symbolic act. It is specifically to ensure that the person is never forgotten, and -- as I started off this whole thread -- never forgiven. They represent something that marks a clear line in the sand, that says, "Do this, and we will end you."
Donald Trump declared war on the United States. He said, "Your elections are stupid, your democratic process is stupid, and I will fix that by taking control of it and destroying your entire form of government, replacing it with a hero(ME)-worshipping Imperium." He is still at war with the US. Only a fool will feel safe from him until after he is dead.
I don't think we can afford to forget him, as a nation. Benedict Arnold was a nobody by comparison.
Well, here is something interesting:
“At the British surrender at Yorktown, Benedict Arnold was burned in effigy and his name has since become synonymous with traitor. The British didn't treat him very well after the war either. After prevailing in a libel action, he was awarded only a nominal amount because his reputation was already so tarnished.” Benedict Donald. That is who Dump will be remembered as: a traitor and criminal. I’ll go with that, rather than killing an already dead man.