Happy Birthday!
A comment on your freewheeling birthday chat ... you observed that Lenin, Mussolini, James Henry Hammond, Senator Mike Lee, etc., all have a common thread that democracy is dangerous and that people need someone or some group to lead them. You mentioned the challenge of why people vote against their own self interest ...…
A comment on your freewheeling birthday chat ... you observed that Lenin, Mussolini, James Henry Hammond, Senator Mike Lee, etc., all have a common thread that democracy is dangerous and that people need someone or some group to lead them. You mentioned the challenge of why people vote against their own self interest ... how to make progress when people don't "come along".
You did not offer a solution ... and perhaps as a historian, that is not your role. Nevertheless, I think we do need to find our way to a solution ... and I view the Nordic social democratic systems as systems to help guide us. What is important is what the Federal Government "Country Study" series observed regarding Finland:
" ... the social security system was an outgrowth of the traditional Nordic belief that the state was not inherently hostile to the well-being of its citizens, but could intervene benevolently on their behalf. According to some social historians, the basis of this belief was a relatively benign history that had allowed the gradual emergence of a free and independent peasantry in the Nordic countries and had curtailed the dominance of the nobility and the subsequent formation of a powerful right wing."
Interesting to contemplate this regarding the news today. What a concept, that government could be "of the people, by the people, for the people" ... the Nordic countries with their basis of public health, public education, partnership among labor, employers, and government ... seem to be much more "democratic" than us, yet because of their parliamentary systems are "republics" because each district is about 30 thousand people and there are no massive marketing campaigns to influence millions of votes by (negative) ads.
The Finnish writer Anu Partanen has an interesting book and several interesting articles on the topic of correcting the misinformed idea that the Nordic countries are not capitalist; an excellent article is her NY Times Sunday Review article from last December ... "Finland is a Capitalist Paradise" ... in large part because citizens are supported in their education, healthcare, etc. because people and corporations pay taxes for services to make a more free and equal society.
Perhaps a review from you as a historian on why this country seems so opposed to the sentiment of Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes that "I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization". We as a country seem to hate taxes so much that we fail to support basic services or unlike the Nordic countries where everyone is entitled (to healthcare, education, etc.) we focus on providing benefits to citizens as a form of public charity and consider those needing public services as "unworthy" or "lessor" people. This sentiment does not exist in Nordic countries because everyone is entitled ... benefits are universal, government and society has an interest in supporting people, helping them to be free to achieve what they may be able to accomplish.
Back to my question to you regarding a solution to the problem of people voting against their self interest ... perhaps this is part of the cultural difference between the Nordic countries where there is much focus and interest on working together instead of rugged individualism ... ???
Americans hate taxes because they get nothing for them, except a huge military-industrial complex and constant war, overt or covert, while the wealthy and large corporations pay nothing.
I don't mind reasonable taxes, if the wealthy pay their fair share. And Stuart Attewell is correct - I want my taxes to be spent on other things and not just the military and cops.
I certainly don’t mind my taxes going for infrastructure, first responders, and yes even welfare, because too many struggle with disabilities, and/or economic injustice. I’m not rich, but I’m willing to help those who are less fortunate.
Reading the replies below is interesting ... let me take this to a state level, the state of Wisconsin, for example. Under former Governor Scott Walker and still under the Republicans dominating the state legislature, the University of Wisconsin system has been gutted ... and continues to shrink from what was once a great land grant University system. This seems to be because the people of Wisconsin do not want to support public higher education for people of the state. They would rather have the short term benefit of smaller taxes than have an educated population. We have a serious problem in this country (certainly in the state of Wisconsin) of placing a value on education ... not just to "get a job" but to be an educated people.
Extend this to healthcare ... we as a nation are not willing to support healthcare for all but would rather be subject to the authority of the private insurance industry in terms of deciding if we receive care ... we as a nation struggle with the concept of doing what is best "for the greater good". We love charity so long as we choose who benefits ... we are not a very generous nation in terms of supporting the "public" ... as the Nordic countries are.
True Jean, but Allen is some what correct about income taxes. It used to be we would get infrastructure, but our roads and bridges are crumbling now. People need health insurance provided before Medicare age.
This morning, I woke up in terror — dreaming that I had to immediately get busy and find a job —ASAP! The reality? I’m 75 years old, had a stroke about three weeks ago and am currently recovering, but unsteady on my feet. Should I laugh or cry? Welcome to what we have wrought.
My heart goes out to you. I have had episodes of SVT, where my heart rate exceeds 200 bpm since March. My husband had 3 strokes in 4 days almost 8 years ago. Both caused by extreme stress. Take a break from all this...just be sure to vote. 💙🗳
I have a friend who has a small business. She thinks all the money she pays in payroll taxes is her money. It has been pointed out to her that part of that is an employee contribution. She does not get it
Well, we do have public education, public roads, and an aging but pretty efficient national highway system (thanks, Republican Pres. Eisenhower). But I agree that too much of our taxes goes to the military, considering the monumental fraud we pay for from crooked contractors who don't submit to any oversight. I'd rather see that money go to our infrastructure, aid to cities, and K-12 education, which right now is a patchwork of systems, some not very good.
Although I don't think it will happen in my lifetime, I'd like to see implementation of universal health care. Our country would be so much stronger and more peaceful if the poorest and most disenfranchised among us had a level playing field to work in.
And speaking of the disenfranchised, the news that Alito and Thomas want to revisit Obergefell v. Hodges to repeal same-sex marriage is heinous. I've never liked Thomas because I don't think he can be fair or humane. He's always seemed just mean-spirited to me.
By that I mean the observation of people's knee jerk reaction to, and discontent with taxation, which breeds contempt towards government. Personally, I feel you get the government you pay for, and the benefits derived from good governance are well worth the price.
However much many of us in the United States would incorporate Nordic social democracy into our political system, solutions start with recognition of our diversity. Today we are split among reactionaries (including Movement Conservatives, evangelicals, and extreme right wing groups), traditional Republicans (including yesterday’s RINOs and today’s Lincoln Project), majority Democrats, and progressive left wing social democrats (Bernie Sanders, AOC, et al.). The “problem of people voting against their self interest” and not appreciating the value of taxes is painted too broadly. It alienates the very segment of people who would support Nordic social democracy.
It matters to recognize the diversity of today’s political landscape because solutions start with a good assessment of the problem.
A very important aspect of social democracy and Nordic social democracy in particular is engagement and participation by all in decisions. For example, the partnership between labor, employers, and government (representing "we the people"). Nordic social democracy in particular strives to find political solutions through engagement among all. Nordic social democracy formed in the early twentieth century through engagement among labor, agrarian society, employers, and the elite ... rather than a violent revolution as in the Russian revolution or the situation in Germany where the Weimar Republic was destroyed by the elite aligning themselves with the Nazis to prevent "socialism". The Nordic countries followed a nonviolent "revolution" where the elite ceded power to society and a government of "we the people".
In George Lakey's book "Viking Economics", he mentions a conversation in Norway with the Kristin Clemet, the head of a leading Conservative think tank named Citiva. She is a prominent conservative politician and observed that President Obama would be considered right wing in Norway ... she would be happy to have him as a member of the Conservative Party in Norway.
My point is that we are so far from being balanced in our politics in this country ... what we consider the "center" would be considered far right wing in Nordic countries.
So ... a good assessment of the problem in this country is that our diversity is not very diverse at all ... we are largely a very conservative, right wing country. Until we are willing to look at ourselves in the mirror and recognize ourselves for what we really are ... progress is very challenging.
"The Nordic countries followed a nonviolent 'revolution' where the elite ceded power to society and a government of 'we the people'." It's the "elite ceded..." part that has us stuck, IMHO. I don't think our elite would "nonviolently" cede. T
I would love to post a couple of your statements, especially the one from Oliver Wendell Holmes. There has been so much bad mouthing about paying taxes, it is no wonder that that is the only pony the gop (and some democrats) have been able to ride. Needless to say the knee jerk reaction to anything that has anything at all to do with taxation makes having a reasonable and educated discussion about taxation has been impossible for years and years - before Reagan - but certainly the crowd against any taxation has grown even deeper roots since Reagan. The U.S. Tax Code is woefully inequitable. That needs to be addressed for sure. 45's own tax situation and the huge breaks the real estate industry uses to cut their own taxes and reap refunds and credits must be completely overhauled. No wonder folks cannot get reasonably priced housing.
I think you have hit on something....this working together vs rugged individualism. There is no balance or compromise between these two right now in the U.S. And our so called leader has done nothing to bring our country together. Our culture is a mix of those who want to work together and those who don't. At this point, I can't even guess which path we will ultimately take.
Though in Nordic countries there is a common view of what represents self interest and it is very much collective. It effectively produces a significant, community-policed conformity of view on what constitutes social relations and the relationship of the individual to the collectivity. Excentricity and otherwise "alternative" views are not encouraged...quite the contrary.
This reminds me of a comment a Swedish colleague made to me after the 2016 elections here. I was lamenting the results and expressing my depression ... and he mentioned this aspect of Sweden. He mentioned that perhaps 15% of the people in Sweden are rather "nasty", "mean" people ... perhaps similar to here. The big difference is that in Sweden everybody votes ... typical voter turnout is around 90%. So, even if all the 15% of the "nasty" people turn out and vote, they don't win. His comment was that you need to have people engaged in their society and government.
We typically struggle to have a voter turnout of 50% ... so 15% can have a big impact on the result. I think a major difference between Nordic social democracy and here is that in Nordic social democracy, people are engaged in their society and government ... they don't "sit out" but instead participate because the government is "we the people".
So, yes, there is a common collective view in Nordic social democracy ... because the conversation is a conversation among all ... not just the elite or highly vocal factions.
The participation rate is of course very important but your figures suggest a striking conformity of views of 85% of the population and little tolerance for the "unacceptable" views of the other15%.
Just an anecdote but a greek friend who ran a major swedish, de-luxe, pre-fabricated house-building i met in the US . He was married to a swedish lady. He said simply that the only way he could put up with the "iron-clad" conformity and the resulting impossible boredom was to escape for 2 months a year to their house in Majorca.
I would like to know how to see the "Freewheeling birthday chat" and other live talks by HCR. I can't seem to find a reference as to how to access these live events.
Happy Birthday!
A comment on your freewheeling birthday chat ... you observed that Lenin, Mussolini, James Henry Hammond, Senator Mike Lee, etc., all have a common thread that democracy is dangerous and that people need someone or some group to lead them. You mentioned the challenge of why people vote against their own self interest ... how to make progress when people don't "come along".
You did not offer a solution ... and perhaps as a historian, that is not your role. Nevertheless, I think we do need to find our way to a solution ... and I view the Nordic social democratic systems as systems to help guide us. What is important is what the Federal Government "Country Study" series observed regarding Finland:
" ... the social security system was an outgrowth of the traditional Nordic belief that the state was not inherently hostile to the well-being of its citizens, but could intervene benevolently on their behalf. According to some social historians, the basis of this belief was a relatively benign history that had allowed the gradual emergence of a free and independent peasantry in the Nordic countries and had curtailed the dominance of the nobility and the subsequent formation of a powerful right wing."
Interesting to contemplate this regarding the news today. What a concept, that government could be "of the people, by the people, for the people" ... the Nordic countries with their basis of public health, public education, partnership among labor, employers, and government ... seem to be much more "democratic" than us, yet because of their parliamentary systems are "republics" because each district is about 30 thousand people and there are no massive marketing campaigns to influence millions of votes by (negative) ads.
The Finnish writer Anu Partanen has an interesting book and several interesting articles on the topic of correcting the misinformed idea that the Nordic countries are not capitalist; an excellent article is her NY Times Sunday Review article from last December ... "Finland is a Capitalist Paradise" ... in large part because citizens are supported in their education, healthcare, etc. because people and corporations pay taxes for services to make a more free and equal society.
Perhaps a review from you as a historian on why this country seems so opposed to the sentiment of Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes that "I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization". We as a country seem to hate taxes so much that we fail to support basic services or unlike the Nordic countries where everyone is entitled (to healthcare, education, etc.) we focus on providing benefits to citizens as a form of public charity and consider those needing public services as "unworthy" or "lessor" people. This sentiment does not exist in Nordic countries because everyone is entitled ... benefits are universal, government and society has an interest in supporting people, helping them to be free to achieve what they may be able to accomplish.
Back to my question to you regarding a solution to the problem of people voting against their self interest ... perhaps this is part of the cultural difference between the Nordic countries where there is much focus and interest on working together instead of rugged individualism ... ???
Americans hate taxes because they get nothing for them, except a huge military-industrial complex and constant war, overt or covert, while the wealthy and large corporations pay nothing.
That's not hatred of taxes but of the republican-deformed tax system and budget.
I don't mind reasonable taxes, if the wealthy pay their fair share. And Stuart Attewell is correct - I want my taxes to be spent on other things and not just the military and cops.
I certainly don’t mind my taxes going for infrastructure, first responders, and yes even welfare, because too many struggle with disabilities, and/or economic injustice. I’m not rich, but I’m willing to help those who are less fortunate.
Joan Demman, I feel the same way
Reading the replies below is interesting ... let me take this to a state level, the state of Wisconsin, for example. Under former Governor Scott Walker and still under the Republicans dominating the state legislature, the University of Wisconsin system has been gutted ... and continues to shrink from what was once a great land grant University system. This seems to be because the people of Wisconsin do not want to support public higher education for people of the state. They would rather have the short term benefit of smaller taxes than have an educated population. We have a serious problem in this country (certainly in the state of Wisconsin) of placing a value on education ... not just to "get a job" but to be an educated people.
Extend this to healthcare ... we as a nation are not willing to support healthcare for all but would rather be subject to the authority of the private insurance industry in terms of deciding if we receive care ... we as a nation struggle with the concept of doing what is best "for the greater good". We love charity so long as we choose who benefits ... we are not a very generous nation in terms of supporting the "public" ... as the Nordic countries are.
We love charity so long as we choose who benefits ... we are not a very generous nation in terms of supporting the "public"
Sad but true. How often do we hear, "I don't want my tax money supporting... (too often BIPOC)".
Our payroll taxes fund Medicare and Social Security, and as someone working very hard to get to retirement, I don't mind that at all.
True Jean, but Allen is some what correct about income taxes. It used to be we would get infrastructure, but our roads and bridges are crumbling now. People need health insurance provided before Medicare age.
This morning, I woke up in terror — dreaming that I had to immediately get busy and find a job —ASAP! The reality? I’m 75 years old, had a stroke about three weeks ago and am currently recovering, but unsteady on my feet. Should I laugh or cry? Welcome to what we have wrought.
My heart goes out to you. I have had episodes of SVT, where my heart rate exceeds 200 bpm since March. My husband had 3 strokes in 4 days almost 8 years ago. Both caused by extreme stress. Take a break from all this...just be sure to vote. 💙🗳
:( I hope you're recovering well!
Oh, Patricia! What a terrible way to wake! I hope you are feeling better by now and that you have all the supports you need!
Patricia Andrews, I had a bizarre dream last night too. Steve Bannon was in it, so I guess it was a nightmare.
I', 75 too, feel constant anxiety, had terrible dreams last night, but thank God I'm healthy so far... Thinking of you and hoping for the best.
I have a friend who has a small business. She thinks all the money she pays in payroll taxes is her money. It has been pointed out to her that part of that is an employee contribution. She does not get it
Well, we do have public education, public roads, and an aging but pretty efficient national highway system (thanks, Republican Pres. Eisenhower). But I agree that too much of our taxes goes to the military, considering the monumental fraud we pay for from crooked contractors who don't submit to any oversight. I'd rather see that money go to our infrastructure, aid to cities, and K-12 education, which right now is a patchwork of systems, some not very good.
Although I don't think it will happen in my lifetime, I'd like to see implementation of universal health care. Our country would be so much stronger and more peaceful if the poorest and most disenfranchised among us had a level playing field to work in.
And speaking of the disenfranchised, the news that Alito and Thomas want to revisit Obergefell v. Hodges to repeal same-sex marriage is heinous. I've never liked Thomas because I don't think he can be fair or humane. He's always seemed just mean-spirited to me.
Sorry. Rant over.
Spot on.
By that I mean the observation of people's knee jerk reaction to, and discontent with taxation, which breeds contempt towards government. Personally, I feel you get the government you pay for, and the benefits derived from good governance are well worth the price.
However much many of us in the United States would incorporate Nordic social democracy into our political system, solutions start with recognition of our diversity. Today we are split among reactionaries (including Movement Conservatives, evangelicals, and extreme right wing groups), traditional Republicans (including yesterday’s RINOs and today’s Lincoln Project), majority Democrats, and progressive left wing social democrats (Bernie Sanders, AOC, et al.). The “problem of people voting against their self interest” and not appreciating the value of taxes is painted too broadly. It alienates the very segment of people who would support Nordic social democracy.
It matters to recognize the diversity of today’s political landscape because solutions start with a good assessment of the problem.
A very important aspect of social democracy and Nordic social democracy in particular is engagement and participation by all in decisions. For example, the partnership between labor, employers, and government (representing "we the people"). Nordic social democracy in particular strives to find political solutions through engagement among all. Nordic social democracy formed in the early twentieth century through engagement among labor, agrarian society, employers, and the elite ... rather than a violent revolution as in the Russian revolution or the situation in Germany where the Weimar Republic was destroyed by the elite aligning themselves with the Nazis to prevent "socialism". The Nordic countries followed a nonviolent "revolution" where the elite ceded power to society and a government of "we the people".
In George Lakey's book "Viking Economics", he mentions a conversation in Norway with the Kristin Clemet, the head of a leading Conservative think tank named Citiva. She is a prominent conservative politician and observed that President Obama would be considered right wing in Norway ... she would be happy to have him as a member of the Conservative Party in Norway.
My point is that we are so far from being balanced in our politics in this country ... what we consider the "center" would be considered far right wing in Nordic countries.
So ... a good assessment of the problem in this country is that our diversity is not very diverse at all ... we are largely a very conservative, right wing country. Until we are willing to look at ourselves in the mirror and recognize ourselves for what we really are ... progress is very challenging.
"The Nordic countries followed a nonviolent 'revolution' where the elite ceded power to society and a government of 'we the people'." It's the "elite ceded..." part that has us stuck, IMHO. I don't think our elite would "nonviolently" cede. T
I would love to post a couple of your statements, especially the one from Oliver Wendell Holmes. There has been so much bad mouthing about paying taxes, it is no wonder that that is the only pony the gop (and some democrats) have been able to ride. Needless to say the knee jerk reaction to anything that has anything at all to do with taxation makes having a reasonable and educated discussion about taxation has been impossible for years and years - before Reagan - but certainly the crowd against any taxation has grown even deeper roots since Reagan. The U.S. Tax Code is woefully inequitable. That needs to be addressed for sure. 45's own tax situation and the huge breaks the real estate industry uses to cut their own taxes and reap refunds and credits must be completely overhauled. No wonder folks cannot get reasonably priced housing.
And no wonder Americans hate to pay taxes. We see the inequities. I would feel a lot better if I thought our tax code was fair.
I think you have hit on something....this working together vs rugged individualism. There is no balance or compromise between these two right now in the U.S. And our so called leader has done nothing to bring our country together. Our culture is a mix of those who want to work together and those who don't. At this point, I can't even guess which path we will ultimately take.
“. . .the sentiment of Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes that ‘I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization’”. WOW!
I quote it often.
That is a great quote!
Though in Nordic countries there is a common view of what represents self interest and it is very much collective. It effectively produces a significant, community-policed conformity of view on what constitutes social relations and the relationship of the individual to the collectivity. Excentricity and otherwise "alternative" views are not encouraged...quite the contrary.
This reminds me of a comment a Swedish colleague made to me after the 2016 elections here. I was lamenting the results and expressing my depression ... and he mentioned this aspect of Sweden. He mentioned that perhaps 15% of the people in Sweden are rather "nasty", "mean" people ... perhaps similar to here. The big difference is that in Sweden everybody votes ... typical voter turnout is around 90%. So, even if all the 15% of the "nasty" people turn out and vote, they don't win. His comment was that you need to have people engaged in their society and government.
We typically struggle to have a voter turnout of 50% ... so 15% can have a big impact on the result. I think a major difference between Nordic social democracy and here is that in Nordic social democracy, people are engaged in their society and government ... they don't "sit out" but instead participate because the government is "we the people".
So, yes, there is a common collective view in Nordic social democracy ... because the conversation is a conversation among all ... not just the elite or highly vocal factions.
The participation rate is of course very important but your figures suggest a striking conformity of views of 85% of the population and little tolerance for the "unacceptable" views of the other15%.
Just an anecdote but a greek friend who ran a major swedish, de-luxe, pre-fabricated house-building i met in the US . He was married to a swedish lady. He said simply that the only way he could put up with the "iron-clad" conformity and the resulting impossible boredom was to escape for 2 months a year to their house in Majorca.
I would like to know how to see the "Freewheeling birthday chat" and other live talks by HCR. I can't seem to find a reference as to how to access these live events.
Vickie, they are posted on Heather’s Facebook page and, later, on her YouTube page.
Thanks! I found it, watched it once and then shared with my husband-great info and my level of admiration for HCR just keeps rising.