The Hamas attack and the Netanyahu counter attack clearly demonstrate the harm extremists inflict upon the majority of citizens. And civilians pay the price. Hamas needs to be dismantled and those left alive imprisoned for war crimes. And Netanyahu needs to resign and be investigated for war crimes. And the people terrorizing the Palesti…
The Hamas attack and the Netanyahu counter attack clearly demonstrate the harm extremists inflict upon the majority of citizens. And civilians pay the price. Hamas needs to be dismantled and those left alive imprisoned for war crimes. And Netanyahu needs to resign and be investigated for war crimes. And the people terrorizing the Palestinian civilians on the West Bank need to be investigated for war crimes. They sad thing is most folks in the middle on both sides likely want peace and would settle for a 2 state solution if it were not for the extremists wishing to annihilate each other. I hope the people here in the US take a good hard look at the consequences of electing an extremist into power.
I think we can be a little more precise: an extremist whose goal in taking up the mantle of the nation's highest office is to jack up the government so as to avoid prosecution. In this Netanyahu and Trump are eerily similar.
I am grateful to Heather for noting a path out toward a two state solution, but I would caution against imagining that Fatah would be part of it. They have pulled back from it so many times before.
Netanyahu has repeatedly told his citizens that this war will be long. I am no military tactician but I do see that a deeply unscrupulous Prime Minister who is facing the possibility of spending the remainder of his life in prison might wish the war to go on as long as there was a single member of Hamas alive. In this way it would be he who is using Palestinians as human shields.
At the very least it is clear that his motives are not simeon pure, and not fully aligned with the people he leads. Yesterday’s question of him resigning was aptly asked.
Eric, although I haven't heard it broached publicly, it would not surprise me to learn that Netanyahu deliberately ignored intelligence prior to the October 7 Hamas attack in order to distract attention from the thousands who have been demonstrating against his administration and his Trump-like corruption. It is just too difficult to believe that Israel's defenses and intelligence were so deficient as to have allowed this attack to occur. I see something much more nefarious, and I never tout conspiracy theories.
Your comment is logical if it can be accepted that somebody could be amoral at such a scale and that others near to him would be complicit. Surely it is not only N. who would have received such intelligence. I would honestly prefer to believe that people at or near the highest echelons of leadership would have the country’s best interests at heart.
Regardless, for the good of Israel this war needs to be short and efficient. With each day that passes, people who feel inimical to a. Netanyahu b. Israel or c. all Jews see this more as a vengeful slaughter with limits that Israel is indifferent to.
Personally I see the long, long shadow of the Holocaust. One must grant Israel some license to think and act as they do for they have one of the most terrible memories to live with.
Nonetheless their massive military power is such that they have become the lion in the jungle of the Middle East. They have not always been wise in their use of that status. Their constant encroachment in the West Bank is such to engender deep bitterness in Palestinians. And Gaza is an insult to the concept of humanity.
Absolutely, Eric. My thoughts have been similar to yours regarding skepticism of deliberate dismissal of intelligence among Netanyahu's upper echelons, but you have only to look at this country to see the damage that Trump and the extreme right wing have caused. Our democracy is hanging by a thread.
While the Holocaust was the stimulus for the creation of Israel, antisemitism preceded the Holocaust by centuries, and for the most part those in power during and after WWII were too afraid of their constituents to welcome Jews into their countries, including the United States. They salved their collective conscience by giving the Holocaust survivors Arab lands, and the result is what we are all seeing today. If the Palestinians had been offered an autonomous state, perhaps we wouldn't be faced with what is happening now. It is not the fault of Israelis as a whole, but of their feckless leaders, who have marginalized the Palestinians and pushed them into the arms of terrorists.
I'm just as horrified that Palestinian civilians are being slaughtered as I am by what is happening to innocent Israelis, and there is no excuse for the encroachment that has happened on the West Bank and the insufferable conditions that existed in Gaza even before the current conflict. Telling Gaza's civilian population to go south, then bombing the south is cruel and deliberate. These people have no choice but to remain where they are and suffer the consequences.
Details of the time after WW2: "The Last Million" by David Nasaw...One million displaced people in Germany...20% were Jews..........interviews of Prof. Nasaw on C-span and youtube....the book is "a page turner"...all 672 pages.
I was just talking to my husband about how the Jewish people we resettling in the West Bank and making it Israeli. I compared it to the white men pushing out the Indians. In thinking that way, I felt badly for the Palestinian people ( not Homas)
I never pay attention to conspiracy theories either....I like facts.......But, Netanyahoo is pretty evil and desperate........I saw a video on someone's phone that the camera's on the Gaza border were turned off, the military didn't come for 10 (!!) hours...and other stuff pointing to that possibility.......And, I have heard from credible sources that the Israel military looks forward excuses to go in and destroy homes and arrest or kill people....Keeping people in miserable conditions with no hope has to make some of them "misbehave".....I need to get that person to send me that video.....
The Israeli response was sadly lacking, and considering the strength of Israel's military and intelligence strengths, it's difficult to understand how the October 7th attack could have happened.
Another problem is that people conflate ordinary Palestinian citizens with Hamas. I'm sure that civilians are angry and frustrated with the fact that they're trapped in Gaza and not allowed to leave that area even in ordinary times, nor are they allowed to have a say in their politics, but that doesn't translate to being considered terrorists or an unreasonable threat.
Netanyahu has mismanaged the Palestinian situation, in addition to being a corrupt authoritarian, and now it is boiling over. It is sad for Israeli citizens as well as the Palestinians, and the entire region is likely to be affected.
I am really hoping that someone will force a vote of no confidence in the knesset. Netanyahu was warned that his self serving stuff was a security risk. Moreover, any suggestion that Netanyahu is endangering IDF soldiers for personal reasons will really harm his prospects.
Settlements, settlements, settlements are at the heart of Palenstinian resistance to proposed Palestinian states in recent history. That is the FUNCTION of the settlements, and has been for a long time — to make it nearly impossible to craft a rational Palestinian state criss crossed by private Israeli roads and giant “settlements.” Many issues exist to be resolved, but this is — as it appears to me — the BIGGEST. [Moving Israel’s capitol to Jerusalem and continuing to evict Palestinians from their homes in East Jerusalem, or make it otherwise impossible for them to live there, is more …]
The so-called "Two State Solution" is a fraud and a long-con. It always has been. The Zionists throw it out for cover. The goal has always been ethnic cleansing of what is now the "occupied territories." The two territories are not connected. Is there a country anywhere in two separate parts? Other than islands. With another country between them. The West Bank is covered with settlements of some 700,000 Israelis. Neither Gaza or the WB control the basic necessities such as water, power, fuel, and taxation.
The "Single State Solution" would be accepting Palestinians as full members of a state. But they would be a majority and the Zionists could never accept that.
Frankly, there is no solution. But that was known in 1948. Israel would always be a source of conflict. Both within and outside their country. The US is starting to look like that.
"Hamas needs to be dismantled". ! Wow. Sounds so masculine, so manly. Dismantle sounds so mechanistic, so formulaic, maybe like an obsolete machine. Scrap it boys, as we did my first ship in the Navy. Hamas consists of people, people who've been battered, marginalized , excluded for a lifetime on the outside looking in, in numerous ways we cannot begin to imagine. The only tribe they know is the vengeful one. They are easily, and readily recruited while still in diapers. We men have screwed humanity from the beginning of time with the total addiction to controlling, or killing the ones we deem unworthy of living. My firm contention is that women would never have chosen the perpetual plundering lifestyle men chose in the beginning. Where have all the flowers gone indeed, Pete Seeger. Gone to graveyards, every one!
When I was growing up we learned about the saying that "the sun never sets on the British Empire." Interesting that such a small country as England could wreak so much havoc on the world and many regions of the world were not as lucky as the USA to overthrow their colonization and rise up in their independence. It is England who colonized Palestine, during which time they helped to settle the Jews in Palestine and to create the modern State of Israel? Here are 3 different points of view on that settlement.
Clearly the Palestinians did not come out of that colonization like the USA did, or this entire situation would be discussed differently. However, England did not act alone in turning Israel into the Nation it is today. It had the backing of other anti-Semetic nations in Europe and the USA who did not want to welcome the displaced Jews liberated from European countries to their home countries. Jews were desperate to leave before and during WWII.
What did England and the Allies do to help resettle Jews who survived the Holocaust and clearly could not return to the European countries filled with hostile anti-Semetic people?
European countries and the USA were reluctant to take Jewish settlers, so it is understandable that people would want to go to Israel, or Palestine, which is what that was then. Right now Jews and Muslims are subject to hostility and ugliness in many places in the world, but I know that there are more Muslims in the other countries except for the USA and Israel, than there are Jews. How will this impact the outcomes? How does this affect safety? We need US diplomats in the region. They are being blocked by Rand Paul and Ted Cruz. There needs to be a push made by our elected officials to get around them. This is hugely important for our Jewish and Muslim citizens as well as in Israel and Palestine. Greg Olear writes in his Substack that Mike Johnson has a biblical Evangelical position on why the Ukrainians should lose and the Russians should win, and how that will play itself out in Israel. https://gregolear.substack.com/p/the-revelation-of-mike-johnson-the
We should be writing our politicians in support of good governance, and not in support of Johnson's extreme positions. The clamor of the people should drown Mike Johnson out.
Humanity has been moving and conquering since forever. Perhaps we can only see the horror in that when we see others do it. And before the modern era we were never able to really see it. After all, history is told by the victors.
There are a lot of moving pieces to life right now that we should be aware of. I cannot imagine either Trump or Mike Johnson taking this over. Let us hope that Biden stays in good health, which I am assuming and Harris does too.
Surprised you would make this about gender. And I would mention “dismantle” suggests strategy as opposed to an all out leveling killing civilians indiscriminately. That we can perhaps understand what helped create Hamas does not mean they should continue to exist this way. They are extremists that wish to kill all Jews at the expense of the Palestinian civilians.
Gender absolutely matters here and I think it’s insightful of Jim to bring it up. Consider the difference between a matriarchal solution and the patriarchy that got “us” (them) here. Since children are most harmed in these conflicts, and the conflict is passed down through generations, we need some true Mother-thinking! (Anecdotally, how many times did my mother say, “Fight like hell, then” when I said my brother started it? Zero times. 😉)
My thought was Jim criticized my use of language considering my choices masculine. And I am a woman. That seemed odd to me to be criticized for sounding like a man in his opinion. Is there even a feminine way to state Hamas must be dismantled? (Which I believe as do military experts is the case.)
Right on Jim! The sheer destruction in Gaza is truly indigestible. As a female armchair general, I would order all of those tanks to hunt out entrances to the tunnels and sit and wait for however long it takes to force Hamas out.
The unprovoked killing of 1400 Jews is horrific and it's unbearable to hear the families of hostages talk about their pain. Why is it that we haven't heard very much about the close to 9000 Palestinians killed in Gaza and hear their relatives talk about their pain?? Why is it that people show outrage at the outright killing of so many Palestinians, as AOC cited in Congress, the cry is "anti-Semitism?"
Exactly! Criticizing a 5-year old's bad behavior is not hate but calling out bad behavior. Looks like Israelis do not like being called out for their bad behavior....
Jim, this is quite a surprise to me early in the am. I agree in a way except that there are women who have been nearly as bad. I just finished a history of Middle Europe which mentioned Maria Theresa and Catherine the Great. Then there are all the howling banshees in politics who seem to lost something of the feminine (and I don't mean looks and other superficial things), but something far more fundamental. I note your post below about tipping points blowin' in the wind and I consider global warming to be that tipping point and we are indeed getting stronger winds among other things.
I used to blame it on the men...And, why didn't the women just say, "Stay home, no fighting and making trouble"...which lands her and the kiddies in a refugee camp.
Eventually, I had to conclude that it's not the men with their excess testosterone... It's not the fault of the females; goodness knows, we had enough on our hands keeping house for the offspring.........It's the human race. The only mammal that ends up with the next generation in terrible circumstances. Every other mammal procreates, forages for the babies and continues on for centuries on end. Not us.
If there ever was a god, he/she/it has moved on in disgust with what his/her/it's highest animal is doing to this perfect planet.
Wow. I sure do remember that song. It comes to mind often. I think there is some truth in your reference to gender. There could be a big difference between a patriarchal and matriarchal society. Or consider a society that is actually balanced between the two genders. I am not much of a history buff, but I can imagine Golda Meir as prime minister in place of Netanyahu for the current period of time prior to the attack by Hamas on Israel. Think there would be a different outcome?
In the song Joe, Mr Seeger referenced the fact we make war, rest, and repeat. The atavistic tendency for humans to never have enough. A novice in history as well, still, I'm aware women have some backstory as warriors as well. Far and away, we outnumber them enormously though. In evolutionary terms, women exceed men in cognitive skills by 25,000 years.generally smaller cortex's, BUT, with more cortical representation in left hemisphere/ communication skills. Not only oral speech, but listening with comprehension as well. Also, both reading, and writing comprehension skills to boot ! Ref. The Female Brain, Dr. Louann Brizendine MD. No pedestals for women, but, my feminine side (yes, Libra), tells me most women won't gladly turn over the ones they carried in them for close to a year, then raised to adulthood, to a war profiteering cause to artificially boost the New York Stock Exchange, or the likes of.
How many countries/cultures/religions tell the women what to wear, what to do, where to go, who to associate with? Men need to protect that piece of ass they won...to keep her services and to not end up raising some other guy's offspring.
very interesting. Matches my experience. It seems that society has conditioned women to accept a subservient role for many centuries... but that is changing. There is hope for the future.
Hamas, like ISIS, has lost any vestige of moral compass, as clearly seen in the terrorist attack. Beyond that, yes, Israeli policies that marginalized and mistreated Palestinians — not to mention the onging treatment of Gaza and what so many see as “collective punishment” of Palestinians for the behavior of members of Hamas, has made it too easy for Hamas to recruit and radicalize NEW members …
I believe Hamas needs to be dismantled, too. Not by blowing up every Palestinian in the near vicinity of every suspected member of Hamas.
There needs to be a better way to find peace in Israel. The people there deserve peace.
Tipping points are real. Humanity is at a crossroad of grave importance now as we continue floating the notion that band-aids are going to close the gapping, gushing wounds we perpetually inflict on one another. The answers are blowing in the wind, it seems.
Well said Brandy. Especially the last sentence. As I sit secure, warm, with my morning routine I wonder the numbers of people having no clue as to the chaos that would be eventual upon bringing the MAGA coalition into full power.
It boggles my mind .
Nor can I even fathom the negotiations to get some semblance of toned down control for the two state premise.
That whole melting pot area , centuries of unrest,hatred,war, extremists, yada yada...I’m sure there are many amongst this wonderful group who have studied this extensively.
Do you understand it ? Is there a less than 500 word essay ( need 1,000?) that would put it into a reasonably understandable context?
Me back here ????? I have confusion around the mess right here ! The facts of lying, corruption, greed, hatred, and disinformation ...can only lead me to understand its just normal ....🤷♀️🤦♀️😕
But let the radicals have their way?...our own terrorists, right? Any doubt , folks?
Not here.
Best to our Blinken , Biden, their teams and strategists .
I found it through a copied format. Thanks, Helen.
Quite the read.
I posted about the separation of the church from state today, and several sometimes ago.
If I thought I could sum up, simplify, or make sense …I’d probably be tripping and I did say I’d never do that again!
Now …I’d really like to ask Our Joe ‘s opinion 😁 this stuff makes me think THAT kind of stuff..
He , Joe, walks his Faith. It’s how I really feel it …sort of glows seems to me. Carries himself with a mentors humility … I feel ….like Jesus would (since this is one of the themes)
If Mike wants to believe all that …religious freedom, right…that’s what America was based on ie coming here not to get persecuted …
How confused , regulated, directed , threatening does it have to get…if YOU like it, it works for you, OK with me, if you don’t like something don’t do it, don’t be it.
It’s moral compass and we can’t legislate them…
But if people go around bombing the shit out of, murdering , cutting off heads…and …and …and well we probably should try to have some rules and allll work for a solution(s)…(but…not.what.autocrats.do.)
Oh …zealots…they’re a bunch , huh? … like radicals
Patricia, Thanks for reading the complicated, head spinning article. I referred to it because it helped me understand the Christian Nationalist viewpoint ( I think) and where the new speaker is coming from, because it is influencing how he will lead, to our great detriment. And I agree with what you said about our Joe. He radiates faith and love. I am a practicing Catholic of the social justice movement but respect other faiths or non- faiths because our country was founded on separation of church and state. Everything is so disheartening now and I am just trying to understand history and how it’s affecting us now. But thank you again for taking the time to read the article and respond. 💙💙💙💙
Hamas will be gone. Then a nice peace loving government takes their place. The "open air Prison" of Gaza, where the Israeli Military has free rein to go in on a regular basis to destroy infrastructure and family homes and kill anyone, will be no problema. So Much Better!
Oh, and BTW: the people terrorizing the Palestinian civilians on the West Bank will be investigated for war crimes.
“Israel, ruthlessly, is going after the families, wives, kids, brothers, sisters, parents of Hamas political and military leaders.” He said fourteen members of the family of Ismail Haniya, the political leader of Hamas based in Qatar, had already been killed. Within two days of the October 7 raid, he said, the widow of Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi, a Hamas co-founder who was assassinated in 2004, was killed. Similarly, he said, eight members of the family of Muhammed Deif, the Hamas military leader, were killed in safe homes.”
I have believed from when Israel started bombing Palestine: they didn't give a damn about those captives......how would they know where they are being held? They didn't. Now they know they in being kept in some part of the tunnels.... they are firing into and destroying tunnels.
I heard somewhere that the Israeli Military knew Hamas was planning the attack and were told to stand down ...to me that counts as a conspiracy theory. I do not give that kind of thing any credence. I like facts. However....the Israeli Military didn't arrive for 10 hours???
Prime Minister Netanyahu has repeatedly told his people that the war will be long and hard. I’m no military tactician, but I can easily see the following. A deeply unscrupulous Prime Minister facing the fact that he might well spend his post-political life in prison might have every reason personally to continue the war until he deems that every last member of Hamas has been killed. By doing so he would be prolonging his life as a free man, while in effect using the IDF and the Palestinians as human shields. At the very least it can be justly said that his motives at this critical time are not aligned with those of his citizens.
Yesterday’s question as to whether he would resign was almost certainly rhetorical. Sadly he won’t.
In a survey of Gazans completed on October 6, the Arab Barometer - a long-standing and well regarded poll, found the large majority of Gazans 1) do not have trust in Hamas as a governing entity; 2) believe Hamas is corrupt; and 3) would like a “two-state solution” to the end the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
All Gazans don't want all Israelis dead, although some may wish for that. Mostly, they're just really mad at their terrible circumstances that were created by Israelis.
Brandy, excellent. Extremists of any kind are always a problem for the majority of people who are not. They are all true believers in their vision no matter whether is religious or political, making sensible solutions impossible. They already have seen what an extremist and an extremist party can do and those who are true believers refuse to be persuaded. It is up to the rest of us to see that they do not gain complete power. The new Speaker is a religious extremist and as one of my friends noted, smarmy. Just looking at him makes me sick.
Indeed. His comparison of the refusal of leading abolitionists to condemn Nat Turner and his bloody uprising to the current conflict was a light bulb moment for me.
It was also a "light bulb moment" for Norman. I had Consortium saved but now I put myself on their email list....so. I won't miss anything. My GOD! This is exhausting....But, I won't give up learning more and more.........
It is exhausting, but as you say, you might as well embrace being on a continual learning curve. One tip I’ll pass on, that being, it helps to be able to laugh now and then while the learning is going on. To that end, Matt Taibbi’s Racket News (subscription required) site and Katie Halper’s Useful Idiots (I just bookmark the YouTube channel, although you can pay for extra content) always make me laugh out loud. Taibbi has a weekly podcast with Walter Kirn, and Katie and Aaron Mate host a couple of hour+ long podcasts/interviews per week that are always informative. Hang in there. Peace, t
I think I just paid for Katie...(or will)...she's not only cute (just did her hair up; I kinda liked the dark roots..) but, she's really got it going on. I just watched former IDF soldiers horrified at the violence...Breaking the Silence guy: it's sad that he's taking on a such a sisyphean journey. I'll check out "Taibbi has a weekly podcast with Walter Kirn, and Katie and Aaron Mate host a couple of hour+ long podcasts/interviews per week that are always informative."
I was thinking the same thing about extremist in power. I just wonder why Netanyahu is in power in light of the huge protest against him. Did people vote him in and then he changed the game rules? I know in one state a woman campaigned as a democrat-pro choice etc, got elected and did a complete turn around and adopted republican ideals.
There is only one side that wants total extermination and its Hamas. They rape women and behead children. Israel on the other hand wants the extermination of Hamas and anyone
who wages war against Israel. THEY DON"T TARGET women and children.
Wrong wrong and wrong again. Please stop posting misinformation about children being beheaded which even the White House had said was an unconfirmed report which no one including the IDF or any international news agency has been able to corroborate or for which no one has been able to find evidence. Even the Israeli journalist who first reported it has retracted it as hasty and unsubstantiated. Continuing to post it is inflammatory and fake news. And to say that the Israelis don’t target women and children is tragically laughable. Who do you think make up a large percentage of the civilians killed by Israeli bombing since Oct 7? Thousands of children - thousands - have been killed by the Israelis in very targeted attacks on civilian areas where the Israelis believe Hamas is sequestered and using women and children as “human shields” willingly or not.
To the Israelis every Palestinian is culpable. Who else on the planet tells civilians to evacuate and then bombs the only roads on which they can escape?
No one is arguing the atrocity and barbarity of Hamas’s attack for one second, nor their murder of children, but to spread proven inflammatory disinformation and at the same time be naive - or stubborn- enough to fail to acknowledge Israel’s action’s as well keeps us chained to the ugly position of no possible resolution and no chance of peace or a ceasefire. Is that what you prefer?
Thank you Lin! The conflation of grouping Palestinians with Hamas and/or suggesting all Israelis are innocent from killing or encroaching on Palestinians is ridiculous. In fact I have been seeing news reports of Israelis on the West Bank using this tragic time to kill Palestinian civilians in their quest to further their settlements. Yet I believe the majority on both sides are peaceful and that it is the extremists who cause most of the horror. In fact I’ve read most Israelis themselves believe Netanyahu to be culpable and wish him out of office particularly as he wishes to dismantle their Democracy and prevent his crimes from being tried. And I’ve also seen reports that Palestinians in Gaza wish to be rid of Hamas - who clearly uses them as human shields and think they are expendable. I wish there was a magic spell for getting rid of the extremists on both sides! 😭
The Hamas attack and the Netanyahu counter attack clearly demonstrate the harm extremists inflict upon the majority of citizens. And civilians pay the price. Hamas needs to be dismantled and those left alive imprisoned for war crimes. And Netanyahu needs to resign and be investigated for war crimes. And the people terrorizing the Palestinian civilians on the West Bank need to be investigated for war crimes. They sad thing is most folks in the middle on both sides likely want peace and would settle for a 2 state solution if it were not for the extremists wishing to annihilate each other. I hope the people here in the US take a good hard look at the consequences of electing an extremist into power.
I think we can be a little more precise: an extremist whose goal in taking up the mantle of the nation's highest office is to jack up the government so as to avoid prosecution. In this Netanyahu and Trump are eerily similar.
I am grateful to Heather for noting a path out toward a two state solution, but I would caution against imagining that Fatah would be part of it. They have pulled back from it so many times before.
Netanyahu has repeatedly told his citizens that this war will be long. I am no military tactician but I do see that a deeply unscrupulous Prime Minister who is facing the possibility of spending the remainder of his life in prison might wish the war to go on as long as there was a single member of Hamas alive. In this way it would be he who is using Palestinians as human shields.
At the very least it is clear that his motives are not simeon pure, and not fully aligned with the people he leads. Yesterday’s question of him resigning was aptly asked.
Eric, although I haven't heard it broached publicly, it would not surprise me to learn that Netanyahu deliberately ignored intelligence prior to the October 7 Hamas attack in order to distract attention from the thousands who have been demonstrating against his administration and his Trump-like corruption. It is just too difficult to believe that Israel's defenses and intelligence were so deficient as to have allowed this attack to occur. I see something much more nefarious, and I never tout conspiracy theories.
Your comment is logical if it can be accepted that somebody could be amoral at such a scale and that others near to him would be complicit. Surely it is not only N. who would have received such intelligence. I would honestly prefer to believe that people at or near the highest echelons of leadership would have the country’s best interests at heart.
Regardless, for the good of Israel this war needs to be short and efficient. With each day that passes, people who feel inimical to a. Netanyahu b. Israel or c. all Jews see this more as a vengeful slaughter with limits that Israel is indifferent to.
Personally I see the long, long shadow of the Holocaust. One must grant Israel some license to think and act as they do for they have one of the most terrible memories to live with.
Nonetheless their massive military power is such that they have become the lion in the jungle of the Middle East. They have not always been wise in their use of that status. Their constant encroachment in the West Bank is such to engender deep bitterness in Palestinians. And Gaza is an insult to the concept of humanity.
Absolutely, Eric. My thoughts have been similar to yours regarding skepticism of deliberate dismissal of intelligence among Netanyahu's upper echelons, but you have only to look at this country to see the damage that Trump and the extreme right wing have caused. Our democracy is hanging by a thread.
While the Holocaust was the stimulus for the creation of Israel, antisemitism preceded the Holocaust by centuries, and for the most part those in power during and after WWII were too afraid of their constituents to welcome Jews into their countries, including the United States. They salved their collective conscience by giving the Holocaust survivors Arab lands, and the result is what we are all seeing today. If the Palestinians had been offered an autonomous state, perhaps we wouldn't be faced with what is happening now. It is not the fault of Israelis as a whole, but of their feckless leaders, who have marginalized the Palestinians and pushed them into the arms of terrorists.
I'm just as horrified that Palestinian civilians are being slaughtered as I am by what is happening to innocent Israelis, and there is no excuse for the encroachment that has happened on the West Bank and the insufferable conditions that existed in Gaza even before the current conflict. Telling Gaza's civilian population to go south, then bombing the south is cruel and deliberate. These people have no choice but to remain where they are and suffer the consequences.
Brilliant. Thank you for enlarging my scope of knowledge.
Details of the time after WW2: "The Last Million" by David Nasaw...One million displaced people in Germany...20% were Jews..........interviews of Prof. Nasaw on C-span and youtube....the book is "a page turner"...all 672 pages.
I was just talking to my husband about how the Jewish people we resettling in the West Bank and making it Israeli. I compared it to the white men pushing out the Indians. In thinking that way, I felt badly for the Palestinian people ( not Homas)
I never pay attention to conspiracy theories either....I like facts.......But, Netanyahoo is pretty evil and desperate........I saw a video on someone's phone that the camera's on the Gaza border were turned off, the military didn't come for 10 (!!) hours...and other stuff pointing to that possibility.......And, I have heard from credible sources that the Israel military looks forward excuses to go in and destroy homes and arrest or kill people....Keeping people in miserable conditions with no hope has to make some of them "misbehave".....I need to get that person to send me that video.....
The Israeli response was sadly lacking, and considering the strength of Israel's military and intelligence strengths, it's difficult to understand how the October 7th attack could have happened.
Another problem is that people conflate ordinary Palestinian citizens with Hamas. I'm sure that civilians are angry and frustrated with the fact that they're trapped in Gaza and not allowed to leave that area even in ordinary times, nor are they allowed to have a say in their politics, but that doesn't translate to being considered terrorists or an unreasonable threat.
Netanyahu has mismanaged the Palestinian situation, in addition to being a corrupt authoritarian, and now it is boiling over. It is sad for Israeli citizens as well as the Palestinians, and the entire region is likely to be affected.
I have had that exact thought.
I am really hoping that someone will force a vote of no confidence in the knesset. Netanyahu was warned that his self serving stuff was a security risk. Moreover, any suggestion that Netanyahu is endangering IDF soldiers for personal reasons will really harm his prospects.
IDF soldiers have been traumatized by what they have witnessed and what they have done.
Also, it might take a long war to stop 47 nations whose religion tells them to anialate anyone they choose to call sn infidel.
It is super hard to annihilate an idea. Twenty years of US might, and the Taliban is right where they started.
Settlements, settlements, settlements are at the heart of Palenstinian resistance to proposed Palestinian states in recent history. That is the FUNCTION of the settlements, and has been for a long time — to make it nearly impossible to craft a rational Palestinian state criss crossed by private Israeli roads and giant “settlements.” Many issues exist to be resolved, but this is — as it appears to me — the BIGGEST. [Moving Israel’s capitol to Jerusalem and continuing to evict Palestinians from their homes in East Jerusalem, or make it otherwise impossible for them to live there, is more …]
Absolutely!
The so-called "Two State Solution" is a fraud and a long-con. It always has been. The Zionists throw it out for cover. The goal has always been ethnic cleansing of what is now the "occupied territories." The two territories are not connected. Is there a country anywhere in two separate parts? Other than islands. With another country between them. The West Bank is covered with settlements of some 700,000 Israelis. Neither Gaza or the WB control the basic necessities such as water, power, fuel, and taxation.
The "Single State Solution" would be accepting Palestinians as full members of a state. But they would be a majority and the Zionists could never accept that.
Frankly, there is no solution. But that was known in 1948. Israel would always be a source of conflict. Both within and outside their country. The US is starting to look like that.
"Hamas needs to be dismantled". ! Wow. Sounds so masculine, so manly. Dismantle sounds so mechanistic, so formulaic, maybe like an obsolete machine. Scrap it boys, as we did my first ship in the Navy. Hamas consists of people, people who've been battered, marginalized , excluded for a lifetime on the outside looking in, in numerous ways we cannot begin to imagine. The only tribe they know is the vengeful one. They are easily, and readily recruited while still in diapers. We men have screwed humanity from the beginning of time with the total addiction to controlling, or killing the ones we deem unworthy of living. My firm contention is that women would never have chosen the perpetual plundering lifestyle men chose in the beginning. Where have all the flowers gone indeed, Pete Seeger. Gone to graveyards, every one!
When I was growing up we learned about the saying that "the sun never sets on the British Empire." Interesting that such a small country as England could wreak so much havoc on the world and many regions of the world were not as lucky as the USA to overthrow their colonization and rise up in their independence. It is England who colonized Palestine, during which time they helped to settle the Jews in Palestine and to create the modern State of Israel? Here are 3 different points of view on that settlement.
https://www.gchq.gov.uk/information/palestine-mandate
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/myths-facts-the-british-mandate-period?utm_content=cmp-truehttps://www.aljazeera.com/features/2018/11/2/more-than-a-century-on-the-balfour-declaration-explained
Clearly the Palestinians did not come out of that colonization like the USA did, or this entire situation would be discussed differently. However, England did not act alone in turning Israel into the Nation it is today. It had the backing of other anti-Semetic nations in Europe and the USA who did not want to welcome the displaced Jews liberated from European countries to their home countries. Jews were desperate to leave before and during WWII.
https://www.annefrank.org/en/anne-frank/go-in-depth/impossibilities-escaping-1933-1942/
What did England and the Allies do to help resettle Jews who survived the Holocaust and clearly could not return to the European countries filled with hostile anti-Semetic people?
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/11/09/searching-for-refuge-after-the-second-world-war
European countries and the USA were reluctant to take Jewish settlers, so it is understandable that people would want to go to Israel, or Palestine, which is what that was then. Right now Jews and Muslims are subject to hostility and ugliness in many places in the world, but I know that there are more Muslims in the other countries except for the USA and Israel, than there are Jews. How will this impact the outcomes? How does this affect safety? We need US diplomats in the region. They are being blocked by Rand Paul and Ted Cruz. There needs to be a push made by our elected officials to get around them. This is hugely important for our Jewish and Muslim citizens as well as in Israel and Palestine. Greg Olear writes in his Substack that Mike Johnson has a biblical Evangelical position on why the Ukrainians should lose and the Russians should win, and how that will play itself out in Israel. https://gregolear.substack.com/p/the-revelation-of-mike-johnson-the
We should be writing our politicians in support of good governance, and not in support of Johnson's extreme positions. The clamor of the people should drown Mike Johnson out.
Well said, Linda.
Israel : Palestine United States : Native Nations
Humanity has been moving and conquering since forever. Perhaps we can only see the horror in that when we see others do it. And before the modern era we were never able to really see it. After all, history is told by the victors.
...and then not quite accurately 😉
Yes Linda, Greg Olear’s Substack should be read by all.
I also think people should read Hussein Ibish's story in The Atlantic. I don't know if you have a subscription, but it is titled Israel's Dangerous Delusion. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/11/israel-gaza-after-hamas/675856/?utm_campaign=one-story-to-read-today&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=20231101&utm_term=One+Story+to+Read+Today
There are a lot of moving pieces to life right now that we should be aware of. I cannot imagine either Trump or Mike Johnson taking this over. Let us hope that Biden stays in good health, which I am assuming and Harris does too.
Will read
Thanks Linda, Helen directed me to Olear’s piece and I hunted a l o n g time for it.🫶
Jim, I believe also that women would not have chosen the violent path men have chosen and continue to choose. Love the song you quote 🎶
Thought: women have been forced to evolve; most men have not.
Surprised you would make this about gender. And I would mention “dismantle” suggests strategy as opposed to an all out leveling killing civilians indiscriminately. That we can perhaps understand what helped create Hamas does not mean they should continue to exist this way. They are extremists that wish to kill all Jews at the expense of the Palestinian civilians.
Gender absolutely matters here and I think it’s insightful of Jim to bring it up. Consider the difference between a matriarchal solution and the patriarchy that got “us” (them) here. Since children are most harmed in these conflicts, and the conflict is passed down through generations, we need some true Mother-thinking! (Anecdotally, how many times did my mother say, “Fight like hell, then” when I said my brother started it? Zero times. 😉)
My thought was Jim criticized my use of language considering my choices masculine. And I am a woman. That seemed odd to me to be criticized for sounding like a man in his opinion. Is there even a feminine way to state Hamas must be dismantled? (Which I believe as do military experts is the case.)
Ahhh yes, I see your point!
Just like no one seems to mention gender when speaking of our homegrown white nationalist terrorists responsible for most mass murders -They are 97% MEN. 141 men shooters to 4 women. https://www.statista.com/statistics/476445/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-shooter-s-gender/
Men have too much time on their hands....to build, create, invent, conquer, destroy. Women make people.... to feed, clean, protect....
Humans: the bad animal.
Right on Jim! The sheer destruction in Gaza is truly indigestible. As a female armchair general, I would order all of those tanks to hunt out entrances to the tunnels and sit and wait for however long it takes to force Hamas out.
The unprovoked killing of 1400 Jews is horrific and it's unbearable to hear the families of hostages talk about their pain. Why is it that we haven't heard very much about the close to 9000 Palestinians killed in Gaza and hear their relatives talk about their pain?? Why is it that people show outrage at the outright killing of so many Palestinians, as AOC cited in Congress, the cry is "anti-Semitism?"
If criticizing Israel is anti-semitic, then color me anti-semitic.
Exactly! Criticizing a 5-year old's bad behavior is not hate but calling out bad behavior. Looks like Israelis do not like being called out for their bad behavior....
causes righteous fury...and lies.
Jim, this is quite a surprise to me early in the am. I agree in a way except that there are women who have been nearly as bad. I just finished a history of Middle Europe which mentioned Maria Theresa and Catherine the Great. Then there are all the howling banshees in politics who seem to lost something of the feminine (and I don't mean looks and other superficial things), but something far more fundamental. I note your post below about tipping points blowin' in the wind and I consider global warming to be that tipping point and we are indeed getting stronger winds among other things.
I used to blame it on the men...And, why didn't the women just say, "Stay home, no fighting and making trouble"...which lands her and the kiddies in a refugee camp.
Eventually, I had to conclude that it's not the men with their excess testosterone... It's not the fault of the females; goodness knows, we had enough on our hands keeping house for the offspring.........It's the human race. The only mammal that ends up with the next generation in terrible circumstances. Every other mammal procreates, forages for the babies and continues on for centuries on end. Not us.
If there ever was a god, he/she/it has moved on in disgust with what his/her/it's highest animal is doing to this perfect planet.
Wow. I sure do remember that song. It comes to mind often. I think there is some truth in your reference to gender. There could be a big difference between a patriarchal and matriarchal society. Or consider a society that is actually balanced between the two genders. I am not much of a history buff, but I can imagine Golda Meir as prime minister in place of Netanyahu for the current period of time prior to the attack by Hamas on Israel. Think there would be a different outcome?
In the song Joe, Mr Seeger referenced the fact we make war, rest, and repeat. The atavistic tendency for humans to never have enough. A novice in history as well, still, I'm aware women have some backstory as warriors as well. Far and away, we outnumber them enormously though. In evolutionary terms, women exceed men in cognitive skills by 25,000 years.generally smaller cortex's, BUT, with more cortical representation in left hemisphere/ communication skills. Not only oral speech, but listening with comprehension as well. Also, both reading, and writing comprehension skills to boot ! Ref. The Female Brain, Dr. Louann Brizendine MD. No pedestals for women, but, my feminine side (yes, Libra), tells me most women won't gladly turn over the ones they carried in them for close to a year, then raised to adulthood, to a war profiteering cause to artificially boost the New York Stock Exchange, or the likes of.
How many countries/cultures/religions tell the women what to wear, what to do, where to go, who to associate with? Men need to protect that piece of ass they won...to keep her services and to not end up raising some other guy's offspring.
very interesting. Matches my experience. It seems that society has conditioned women to accept a subservient role for many centuries... but that is changing. There is hope for the future.
Hamas, like ISIS, has lost any vestige of moral compass, as clearly seen in the terrorist attack. Beyond that, yes, Israeli policies that marginalized and mistreated Palestinians — not to mention the onging treatment of Gaza and what so many see as “collective punishment” of Palestinians for the behavior of members of Hamas, has made it too easy for Hamas to recruit and radicalize NEW members …
I believe Hamas needs to be dismantled, too. Not by blowing up every Palestinian in the near vicinity of every suspected member of Hamas.
There needs to be a better way to find peace in Israel. The people there deserve peace.
Yes Jim. 😔
Tipping points are real. Humanity is at a crossroad of grave importance now as we continue floating the notion that band-aids are going to close the gapping, gushing wounds we perpetually inflict on one another. The answers are blowing in the wind, it seems.
Amen AMEN, Jim!
Well said Brandy. Especially the last sentence. As I sit secure, warm, with my morning routine I wonder the numbers of people having no clue as to the chaos that would be eventual upon bringing the MAGA coalition into full power.
It boggles my mind .
Nor can I even fathom the negotiations to get some semblance of toned down control for the two state premise.
That whole melting pot area , centuries of unrest,hatred,war, extremists, yada yada...I’m sure there are many amongst this wonderful group who have studied this extensively.
Do you understand it ? Is there a less than 500 word essay ( need 1,000?) that would put it into a reasonably understandable context?
Me back here ????? I have confusion around the mess right here ! The facts of lying, corruption, greed, hatred, and disinformation ...can only lead me to understand its just normal ....🤷♀️🤦♀️😕
But let the radicals have their way?...our own terrorists, right? Any doubt , folks?
Not here.
Best to our Blinken , Biden, their teams and strategists .
💙💙VOTE💙💙
One good book: Contested Land, Contested Memory by Jo Roberts.
Thanks🫶 I am interested.
Thanks, I have ordered it.
Patricia Davis, read Greg Olear’s Substack article from yesterday. It explains a long look at the history of wars in the Middle East.
Not finding it Helen, I’ll look again.
https://gregolear.substack.com/p/the-revelation-of-mike-johnson-the?utm_campaign=email-half-post&r=14oonh&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
Thanks to Judy. Wonderful to have y’all helping…I get so lost sometimes …🤣
It was from 10/31 and was called “ The Revelation of Mike Johnson as speaker”
I found it through a copied format. Thanks, Helen.
Quite the read.
I posted about the separation of the church from state today, and several sometimes ago.
If I thought I could sum up, simplify, or make sense …I’d probably be tripping and I did say I’d never do that again!
Now …I’d really like to ask Our Joe ‘s opinion 😁 this stuff makes me think THAT kind of stuff..
He , Joe, walks his Faith. It’s how I really feel it …sort of glows seems to me. Carries himself with a mentors humility … I feel ….like Jesus would (since this is one of the themes)
If Mike wants to believe all that …religious freedom, right…that’s what America was based on ie coming here not to get persecuted …
How confused , regulated, directed , threatening does it have to get…if YOU like it, it works for you, OK with me, if you don’t like something don’t do it, don’t be it.
It’s moral compass and we can’t legislate them…
But if people go around bombing the shit out of, murdering , cutting off heads…and …and …and well we probably should try to have some rules and allll work for a solution(s)…(but…not.what.autocrats.do.)
Oh …zealots…they’re a bunch , huh? … like radicals
💙💙VOTE💙💙
Patricia, Thanks for reading the complicated, head spinning article. I referred to it because it helped me understand the Christian Nationalist viewpoint ( I think) and where the new speaker is coming from, because it is influencing how he will lead, to our great detriment. And I agree with what you said about our Joe. He radiates faith and love. I am a practicing Catholic of the social justice movement but respect other faiths or non- faiths because our country was founded on separation of church and state. Everything is so disheartening now and I am just trying to understand history and how it’s affecting us now. But thank you again for taking the time to read the article and respond. 💙💙💙💙
Hamas will be gone. Then a nice peace loving government takes their place. The "open air Prison" of Gaza, where the Israeli Military has free rein to go in on a regular basis to destroy infrastructure and family homes and kill anyone, will be no problema. So Much Better!
Oh, and BTW: the people terrorizing the Palestinian civilians on the West Bank will be investigated for war crimes.
Fat chance.
“Israel, ruthlessly, is going after the families, wives, kids, brothers, sisters, parents of Hamas political and military leaders.” He said fourteen members of the family of Ismail Haniya, the political leader of Hamas based in Qatar, had already been killed. Within two days of the October 7 raid, he said, the widow of Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi, a Hamas co-founder who was assassinated in 2004, was killed. Similarly, he said, eight members of the family of Muhammed Deif, the Hamas military leader, were killed in safe homes.”
https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/the-labyrinth-war?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=1377040&post_id=138465481&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=false&r=dw1an&utm_medium=email
I have believed from when Israel started bombing Palestine: they didn't give a damn about those captives......how would they know where they are being held? They didn't. Now they know they in being kept in some part of the tunnels.... they are firing into and destroying tunnels.
I heard somewhere that the Israeli Military knew Hamas was planning the attack and were told to stand down ...to me that counts as a conspiracy theory. I do not give that kind of thing any credence. I like facts. However....the Israeli Military didn't arrive for 10 hours???
Prime Minister Netanyahu has repeatedly told his people that the war will be long and hard. I’m no military tactician, but I can easily see the following. A deeply unscrupulous Prime Minister facing the fact that he might well spend his post-political life in prison might have every reason personally to continue the war until he deems that every last member of Hamas has been killed. By doing so he would be prolonging his life as a free man, while in effect using the IDF and the Palestinians as human shields. At the very least it can be justly said that his motives at this critical time are not aligned with those of his citizens.
Yesterday’s question as to whether he would resign was almost certainly rhetorical. Sadly he won’t.
In a survey of Gazans completed on October 6, the Arab Barometer - a long-standing and well regarded poll, found the large majority of Gazans 1) do not have trust in Hamas as a governing entity; 2) believe Hamas is corrupt; and 3) would like a “two-state solution” to the end the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
All Gazans don't want all Israelis dead, although some may wish for that. Mostly, they're just really mad at their terrible circumstances that were created by Israelis.
Brandy, excellent. Extremists of any kind are always a problem for the majority of people who are not. They are all true believers in their vision no matter whether is religious or political, making sensible solutions impossible. They already have seen what an extremist and an extremist party can do and those who are true believers refuse to be persuaded. It is up to the rest of us to see that they do not gain complete power. The new Speaker is a religious extremist and as one of my friends noted, smarmy. Just looking at him makes me sick.
On Hamas - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx5oigt_sIQ&t=58s
Norman Finkelstein: my hero!!....in the first speech I heard from him, he says that he cannot condemn the brutal acts of Hamas in Israel.
Indeed. His comparison of the refusal of leading abolitionists to condemn Nat Turner and his bloody uprising to the current conflict was a light bulb moment for me.
This one dovetails with Norman’s take on the ‘condemn’ issue : https://consortiumnews.com/2023/11/01/asad-abukhalil-do-you-condemn-israel/?eType=EmailBlastContent&eId=82faf6a8-13da-49d4-9966-1c3077801a6e
It was also a "light bulb moment" for Norman. I had Consortium saved but now I put myself on their email list....so. I won't miss anything. My GOD! This is exhausting....But, I won't give up learning more and more.........
It is exhausting, but as you say, you might as well embrace being on a continual learning curve. One tip I’ll pass on, that being, it helps to be able to laugh now and then while the learning is going on. To that end, Matt Taibbi’s Racket News (subscription required) site and Katie Halper’s Useful Idiots (I just bookmark the YouTube channel, although you can pay for extra content) always make me laugh out loud. Taibbi has a weekly podcast with Walter Kirn, and Katie and Aaron Mate host a couple of hour+ long podcasts/interviews per week that are always informative. Hang in there. Peace, t
I think I just paid for Katie...(or will)...she's not only cute (just did her hair up; I kinda liked the dark roots..) but, she's really got it going on. I just watched former IDF soldiers horrified at the violence...Breaking the Silence guy: it's sad that he's taking on a such a sisyphean journey. I'll check out "Taibbi has a weekly podcast with Walter Kirn, and Katie and Aaron Mate host a couple of hour+ long podcasts/interviews per week that are always informative."
I was thinking the same thing about extremist in power. I just wonder why Netanyahu is in power in light of the huge protest against him. Did people vote him in and then he changed the game rules? I know in one state a woman campaigned as a democrat-pro choice etc, got elected and did a complete turn around and adopted republican ideals.
The scourge on the good Earth are extremist of all stripes. Wars are always bad economics, regardless of what the arms dealers tell you.
Many similarities here is the USA
Netanyahu war crimes? Are you kidding?
There is only one side that wants total extermination and its Hamas. They rape women and behead children. Israel on the other hand wants the extermination of Hamas and anyone
who wages war against Israel. THEY DON"T TARGET women and children.
Wrong wrong and wrong again. Please stop posting misinformation about children being beheaded which even the White House had said was an unconfirmed report which no one including the IDF or any international news agency has been able to corroborate or for which no one has been able to find evidence. Even the Israeli journalist who first reported it has retracted it as hasty and unsubstantiated. Continuing to post it is inflammatory and fake news. And to say that the Israelis don’t target women and children is tragically laughable. Who do you think make up a large percentage of the civilians killed by Israeli bombing since Oct 7? Thousands of children - thousands - have been killed by the Israelis in very targeted attacks on civilian areas where the Israelis believe Hamas is sequestered and using women and children as “human shields” willingly or not.
To the Israelis every Palestinian is culpable. Who else on the planet tells civilians to evacuate and then bombs the only roads on which they can escape?
No one is arguing the atrocity and barbarity of Hamas’s attack for one second, nor their murder of children, but to spread proven inflammatory disinformation and at the same time be naive - or stubborn- enough to fail to acknowledge Israel’s action’s as well keeps us chained to the ugly position of no possible resolution and no chance of peace or a ceasefire. Is that what you prefer?
Notice: No One Likes James' stupid post.
Thank you Lin! The conflation of grouping Palestinians with Hamas and/or suggesting all Israelis are innocent from killing or encroaching on Palestinians is ridiculous. In fact I have been seeing news reports of Israelis on the West Bank using this tragic time to kill Palestinian civilians in their quest to further their settlements. Yet I believe the majority on both sides are peaceful and that it is the extremists who cause most of the horror. In fact I’ve read most Israelis themselves believe Netanyahu to be culpable and wish him out of office particularly as he wishes to dismantle their Democracy and prevent his crimes from being tried. And I’ve also seen reports that Palestinians in Gaza wish to be rid of Hamas - who clearly uses them as human shields and think they are expendable. I wish there was a magic spell for getting rid of the extremists on both sides! 😭