Here is a fabulous article making the case that overturning Roe would be an unconscionable infringement on the religious freedom of orthodox Jews. Jewish law goes back over 5,000 years or something like …
Here is a fabulous article making the case that overturning Roe would be an unconscionable infringement on the religious freedom of orthodox Jews. Jewish law goes back over 5,000 years or something like that. I had really been wondering why Freedom of Religion wasn't part of the discussion arguing against Alito's draft position on Roe. Alito also ignores Amendment 9 of the Bill of Rights which should be an integral part of originalist thinking. "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." The Constitution explicitly says it is not naming all the rights RETAINED BY THE PEOPLE. To me that means if the significant majority of the people say it is their right it is a right. Time to impeach Alito and Thomas.
Another thing I like about the explanation of Jewish Law in this article is a theme I've been stating many times over. The OR world of black and white is just not sufficient in dealing with all the implications of many issues in life and most certainly in a women's choice. To me Patriarchy is the OR world - you're right or wrong, one up or one down, very primitive. The AND world is egalitarianism where you have the Synergy of multiple perspectives brought together to come up with better solutions for all.
This was a very good article and actually, surprising for me to know that the Orthodox Jews want to protect the woman. Traditionally, the man is seen as the breadwinner, the ruler of the home, etc. The wife is the cook, the cleaner, the educator. I am happy to see there is somewhat of a realistic and caring viewpoint from them.
Per the Mishna and Talmud, the fetus is a part of the woman's body ("like her thigh bone") until it has left her body. And it is not fully human until "God breathes life into it as He did to Adam."
There are several faith traditions that the fetus is not alive until it's first breath.
Can't wait to see what the theocrats on the Supreme Court do with these facts.
Respectfully, those aren't facts, those are beliefs. The concept of viability is relatively new, due to observations of prenatal development, and modern medicine's ability to keep a premature birth alive by mechanical interventions. Thus, viability becomes earlier and earlier– weeks before a newborn could survive out of the womb. Even though most Americans want legal abortions, there is an uncomfortable gray area about when a fetus becomes a baby. Personally, I ask myself if I could abort a pregnancy in the final trimester, and I could not unless things went terribly wrong. These are the dilemmas many Americans face; no abortions vs all abortions whenever. The majority opinion lies somewhere in between. I believe Roe vs. Wade needs revamping, not dissolution, and certainly not by a mandate of 5 very strange guys on the SCOTUS.
The point is, different religions have different beliefs, none of which should be running our secular government, but also none of which represent all religious people. Third trimester abortions happen when a pregnancy goes terribly wrong. Intruding politicians into such difficult times does no good to any one.
I think you hit the nail on the head. We are supposed to have a clear separation of church and state. The Bill of Rights states, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion“. This is often interpreted to require separation of church and state.” There are still issues in balancing the establishment clause and the free exercise clause. There are several US Supreme Court cases revolving around this issue trying to parse what is and is not a violation of the establishment clause.
The question of when a fetus becomes a person was settled for Catholics when the Pope decided the soul enters the body at conception. This standard seems to have been taken up by evangelicals, even though they don’t recognize papal authority. The whole conservative stand on abortion turns on a religious answer to what should be a scientific question. But science can’t answer this particular question in a way Christian conservatives like, and apparently they don’t care what Jews think, either.
I agree with your ideas here, Hope. But as Joan says, no one's religious beliefs or personal choices should be running our government. And I personally think men should butt out of the conversation. It falls largely to the woman to bear and raise the child. It's mainly her "labor" which births and nourishes the child through at least the first years. Men have no idea of the cost of a woman's energies in doing this. (And, in addition, many women work full time jobs and care for their parents and take care of the house!)
Viability is also a delicate idea, at best. I recently read a piece by a Neonatologist that described the process of ATTEMPTING to keep a very premature infant alive, and it fails most of the time. These babies are too underdeveloped to survive without extreme measures that too often are simply not enough, and the babies that do survive often have severe disabilities. It's a slippery slope.
Hope, You have interest in further inquiry into the role of religion with reference to the abortion rights and to Roe v. Wade. The following is just one source.
'Abortion, Justice, and Religion - Center for American'
'Feb 17, 2022 — So, laws banning abortion are a freedom of religion on two fronts. First of all, they theoretically impose one notion about when life begins or... '
In traditional Jewish communities, the ideal occupation for a man is religious study. Although scholars are partially supported by other men who work in paying jobs, wives commonly produce income (and quite literally make the bread). It’s a very different culture from Christian fundamentalism.
Did you know that Steve Schmidt is completing his studies to become a Jew? Republican to Democrat. Christian to Jewish. Steve seems to be getting it right.
He also tweeted this week that Rupert Murdoch is a naturalized citizen and there is a process for denaturalizing. Apparently is happened to Murdoch in England.
From WaPo in Jan 1981 “At a dinner last month in Washington Honoring MR Murdoch for his work on behalf of Mr. Reagan, Representative Jack Kemp, a New York Republican, said “Rupert Murdoch used the editorial page, the front page, and every other page necessary to elect Ronald Reagan President.” “. Rupert has been the power behind the evil for more decades than is commonly known. His take over of our communication system was planned, executed and put in place while Reagan Democrats were still celebrating. Bill Moyers noticed
Religion and Politics are really two sides of the same coin. Both require moral “decisions” and “tribal” loyalties (loosely interpreted). Schmidt’s dual switch is not only unsurprising, but predictable. Good for him.
That has always been a standard in that culture. I’ve seen it in many Jewish homes that I grew up with having many Jewish friends in junior high school.
Thank you for my first big grin of the am here on the left coast. Just up with my first cup of coffee which fortunately I was not drinking when I read your post.
Smart woman. I’m still learning that coffee should be sipped and swallowed before reading. That way, my cat doesn’t get showered and I don’t have to clean up one more time before continuing to read. 😎
Wait! Orthodox men separate themselves from women. At least in NYC, women must sit in the back of busses, walk behind men and all the other trappings of unreformed beliefs. Of course, as with conservative Catholics and all religions, appreciate the person, but religions restrictions are so outdated regardless.
In Ultra Orthodox practices, women walk ten paces behind the man. My viewpoint about religion is that mostly all of them create barriers. My parents used to tell me I would marry a Jewish lawyer or a doctor. I rebelled and married a nice Irish Catholic boy. We had two girls and we claimed their religion was JIrish. This marriage has lasted 46 years.
No one claimed that Orthodox Judaism is a feminist practise. The claim is twofold: one, Orthodox Judaism is not Christian fundamentalism. two, government laws forbidding abortion violate the religious freedom of Orthodox Jews, whose religious law not only places such decisions in the hands of the pregnant person, but actually requires abortion when it is necessary to save the life of the pregnant person.
This is relevant to the Roe v Wade discussion because the reactionaries are claiming to speak in the name of all religion. They do not. They do not even speak in the name of all right wing religious people. Many Orthodox Jews in the US have in fact seen Republicans as the lesser evil and voted accordingly. They are a group some of whom are going to vote differently as a result of the Alito opinion.
I've said this before but it bears repeating, a great read is A J Jabob's book "A Year of Living Biblically" So enlightening, so darn right spit out your coffee funny, so sincere, its among the top ten books I always recommend!
I believe that all religion is humanly created mumbo jumbo mind control. But as a "goy" who has lived with and loved Jews for 50 plus years, I have always respected the continuous discussion factor. There is this endless re-examination of how traditions and rules should apply to an ever changing world. In a sense, it's how the Founders of our Nation viewed the Constitution.
I guess the only religious tradition I find even slightly worthwhile is a Seder. There is a discussion! Hardship followed by success! I like the food :) There is wine. Lots of wine.
And I can attest from more than one personal experience, the role of the woman, the mother, the sister in Jewish life is powerful in a way that is quite special. And often, quite wise.
The tradition I truly admire is the Bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah, the coming of age ceremony for young teenagers, something sorely missing in American culture. In front of the entire community, they recite all the passages studied and memorized, receive testimony, and generally are told -here are all these great privileges you now have....and here are your new responsibilities. Young people are desperate for an opportunity to demonstrate their readiness for adulthood if we would just give them the chance.
Unfortunately, my experience was that, after several years of Hebrew school (after regular school 4 days/wk), I could read Hebrew, like a parrot, but did not know what the words meant. So the passage of the Torah I read during my Bar Mitzvah was a complete mystery to me. Neither the Rabbi nor anyone else ever discussed it with me. A great waste of time and a lost opportunity. At the time I was a "good boy" and just did what I was told. When I visited Israel many years later, I realized the depth of the problem. Now in (sort of) old age (81) I've taken up the study of Hebrew for enlightenment, but also as a form of "revenge". I've heard from several friends and acquaintances that this method of teaching was common in Hebrew schools at the time. I don't know about now. Also, as far as I know, there were no Bat Mitzvahs in those days, and the women in our congregation sat upstairs in the gallery of the synagogue, separate from the men. It was an Orthodox but not fanatic congregation, although, with the separation of the sexes, one may dispute that. I have no comment.
Coming of age rituals are missing in so many different ways, and the various kinds of wisdom passed down from elders in those initiations. That's what Robert Bly and James Hollis created in their men's groups, and I am honored to be in one modeled on their inspiration.
Recipe for a perfect world. How comprehensive, inclusive and inspiring. I imagine this document generates lively discussion in your classroom. If our Founding Fathers had access to this document when framing The Constitution generations ago, there would be a lot less ambiguity for the Supreme Court to quibble over.
..."religion is humanly created mumbo jumbo mind control." I disagree with your statement. Religions were manifested to give voice to that other part of ourselves that realizes beatific visions in nature, the rapture of seeing a birth, and the explicable yearning for that which lifts us up. The basic concepts are pure. There are millennia of pure devotees to a religion just as there are are people who will deface anything for their own use.
I personally believe that until humanity regains their spiritual center either through an organized religion or a personal spiritual journey based on some core fundamentals we will never ever respect and care of this planet.
Religion can and has connected us with that undefinable sacred center in ourselves.
It sounds as if you are referring to a type of personal spirituality. I suspect that brings you peace and happiness. Sounds great. I have mine as well.
When I say "religion" I am referring to the institutions that have declared theirs to be "the one true faith" and slaughtered those who did not agree. There are a few admirable faith systems for sure. But most organized religions have an awful track record.
I suspect that if we sat down over a cup of coffee and compared values, we would find much in common. But as far as I can see right now, most "Christians" have left the teachings of Jesus in the dust and are now leading promoters of intolerance, exclusion, hate and pure evil.
I like the science of the mind of Tibetan Buddhism. The study and practice of Buddhist concepts keeps me on my mental toes; especially for my Western mind. It's the meditation aspect that settles my dust and actually makes me a nicer person to be around.
And the Tao is so lovely. With its own set of challenges. Those koans....... Wait a minute. Zen has the koans. Right? My apology.
"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose." -- from the great song "Me & Bobby McGee" by Kris Kristofferson. Thanks for the article Cathy. Making laws about something that is a decision that should be made by a woman and her doctor is totally wrong. If Roe is overturned by this so-called "Supreme" court, all hell will break lose. That hell being what over 20 states using what is called 'triggers' to make a woman's right to choose illegal and in many cases a felony for her. These mostly old men have no right to overturn Roe, for if they do, many women will likely die. One wonders if we could then charge the majority of the court with at least manslaughter or perhaps murder. And these folks who use religion in their argument against abortion have a right to their views. But they have no right to impose those views on the rest of us. Whatever happened to the separation of church and state?
I think this is not about abortion for most to the people pushing this rift, Richard. I think it is more that they see it as an opening gambit for power and control, with the clear intent to move on to other opportunities that banning abortion would open up. There is a tremendous backlash, but no way to tell what the outcome of that will be. Maybe the "Court" will come back to basic principles of the rights entrained in the Declaration of Independence, which would be a welcome relief. Or maybe they'll pick out a few things in Roe that would open some control to the states, or even send it to lower courts for review (unlikely, but would certainly make for a strange time). Or maybe they'll overturn it with less strained reasoning than the "Alito draft". In which case there is a movement already in motion to bypass that. I hope to hell it doesn't come to that. Abortion has been a woman's choice from the beginning of time, with the exception of the eugenics movement. Gotta keep that in mind too. That movement began in the early 20th century in the USA.
"One wonders if we could then charge the majority of the court with at least manslaughter or perhaps murder."
It is my understanding that all judges - Supreme or not - have essentially total immunity from both civil and criminal liability from consequences of their decisions. They have been granted this immunity because otherwise they would susceptible to 'outside pressure' - and no other profession is granted such free license to behave corruptly. We, the people, have no legal means of redress when judges behave badly.
Separation of Church and State is in the First Amendment to the Constitution. I do not believe there are any laws on the books, either state or federal making violations criminal.
The only route I know of is to find someone with standing who can bring a case to court that claims they are being harmed by the lack of separation of church and state.
That's a hard find. And with the religious zealots now in majority on the,Supreme Court, I doubt anyone would have any success.
‘Originalist’…PT Barnum must have ‘coined’ that word! Consider, the ‘Originals’ who wrote the Constitution allowed for only white men to vote!…..stop..think about it!….the so called originalists should be advocating for a return to that limitation…..now that I think about it, seems like the red states wacky legislators are trying to blast us back to that era with their restrictive voting laws!
It’s hard for me to believe that a modern man, let alone a Supreme Court Justice, would hinge a judgment on the mentality of antiquity. It’s just so backwards! What is happening to the progress of life, liberty & the pursuit
Alioto had to go back to England for a "common law" reference. In American "common law" in the earliest non-Catholic settlements, abortion was not illegal until 1820, and it was only illegal then "after the time of the quickening." Per midwives and church records, 16-20 weeks. For many centuries, that's when God breathed The Holy Spirit into the developing human being--ensoulment.
I don't think it a coincidence that the international average gestational age for a woman to be able to make her own decision to end her pregnancy is 16 weeks.
That was my point all along. Abortion bans are a war on the woman VOTER, not just the women. Same as Immigration restrictions are a war against Black and Brown VOTERS All these “minority” groups will be majority over the White voters within the next 10 years. Women already are more than 50% over men voters
YES, and I have been saying that all along! The inter-mingling of different races and cultures should actually be encouraged because only then, will these white supremacists be brought down to their knees.
At 16, I was (happily) kicked out of conservative Jewish consecration class for making that same point, Marlene. We were encouraged by our teacher, the rabbi's wife to socialize solely within our tribe. After pointing out that that approach would likely result in others fearing us and possibly hating us for being different, I was pointed to the door. Diversity, at least of thought, is an essential component of a democracy. I guess the more observant value debate, only amongst themselves.
We never had consecration classes! I was raised conservative also. You see, Wendy, they all want to manage our lives. Thank goodness there are plenty of people who see beyond that and say “no thank you”.
The perfect recipe for women & people of color to go to any length to VOTE! I am hopeful that these Republican tactics will be an exercise in shooting them selves in the foot! 🌊🌊🌊🌊
Both/and thinking usually creates a more positive outcome than either/or thinking. The Republican Taliban is actually quite primitive when you think about it.
I first ran into them just before Carter was elected President. At the time, it was vaguely amusing. First, God wanted Republican Reagan elected, then changed his mind and went for Democrat Carter. Go figure.
Thank you, Cathy. This is an informative article. I also like your second paragraph about black and white thinking. I wonder why so many prefer to be told what is right rather than to deal with complexities and take agency in making decisions for themselves. I wonder what the root is, psychologically.
Daniel Kahnemann would tell you that thinking takes energy, it's hard work. People are mentally lazy and save their psychic energy for choosing which Macdo to eat.
Partially. I’m certain that there are people who thrive on being told what to do and how to do it. There is a comfort (for some) in having that rigid structure.
My brother & I were talking about this in regards to our adult children & how our sons are into black & white thinking & get irate with grey areas. We are a bit dumbfounded because we don't see that among our 8 siblings, so where did this come from?
Yes. I’ve not been much of a fan of “either-or”…much to my dad’s pride and dismay. I’m more of a “but-and” kind of person. It’s just so much more inclusive and fun.
Thank you for sharing this link. It's time to either begin impeachment proceedings and/or expand this Stench Bench. Six extremists, five of whom are Catholic, do not have the authority - whether they have a lifetime appointment to wear a robe or not - to overturn the first amendment to our Constitution and dictate their own religious beliefs to an entire nation and over half of its citizens. This is not the 12th century, and they are not the Catholic Inquisition reinstated, no matter what they think about themselves. They are a bunch of unregulated, spoiled, dishonest thugs that WE pay to sit on those thrones and "judge" others.
Well one can of course try to talk to the extreme right (or often these days even the extreme left) about protecting the jewish religion and culture but.......history and much current political and ideological stupidity might suggest that they would be more than somewhat motivated to gleefully continue on their way while thanking you for bringing them such good news.....and probably with rude gestures to accompany their disdainful words.
Yes, Stuart, that is my fear. Having been raised Jewish by Holocaust victims, in a small southern Baptist town, is a reminder of what may come. I am not a very religious person but I do support my heritage, my own history.
Jews believe life begins upon the exit from the womb. Not before. Jews do not hold baby showers. They wait until that wee creature in swaddling clothes is viable. As to the reversal of Roe: This has been a long slog for evangelical faux Christians. Alito sees himself as the new "Don of the Supreme Court", writing a terribly pithy opinion. Those Justices, so concerned about the fetus, can care less once that wee being is out into the world. Republicans love to hang on the coat tails of those driven by sinister and evil beliefs.
Lots of people say it that (wrong) way. It was said by all the characters on "The West Wing" years ago. Of course it's clear what you (and they) meant, but it's easy to say it correctly, and it makes sense that way!
Yes, but....this is not a unilateral position, as the article points out. I am aware of situations in my work where Orthodox women have told their physicians they did not want to continue a pregnancy because of the severe genetic complications and were forced by their rabbis and husbands to do so. Maybe some Orthodox women are "empowered" but by and large many are not. I'm glad this woman had an option, but, it is also of note that we are not told what her choice was. The cultural and religious pressure she was under may have in the end, proved determinative.
If you read the article, it says clearly that there is a range of opinions among Orthodox rabbis. (That’s actually a safe statement on any topic whatsoever. Judaism values conflicting opinions as a path to understanding.) Any woman is going to be dealing with pressures within her family and community when making important choices. Strengthening womens positions within those contexts is another part of the work. The point here, is that Jewish law says it is her choice to make - and that laws taking away that choice violate her ability to do so.
The same would apply if a state law took away her choice to have a baby. Keep in mind that the era of illegal abortion was also a time of forced sterilization of women of color. The white supremacists are openly saying their goal is a larger ratio of white people. That’s the “logic” behind mass shootings.
On a less grim note, according to Jewish law a fetus - no matter how eagerly expected - becomes a person at its first breath outside the woman’s body. It’s a theological question. There’s a Jewish joke that a fetus is not considered viable until it graduates from medical school.
In any case, in Jewish law a woman is a person. A pregnant woman is one person, and that person is the woman.
Thank you for bringing up our history of forced sterilization. What concerns me the most about overturning Roe v Wade is a government that has the power to determine you can’t have an abortion is a government that can turn around and determine you can’t have children when it suits its purpose. Be that forced sterilization, or as former policy in China, a restriction on how many children you are allowed to have.
Thanks, Joan. In you last paragraph you wrote "The white supremacists are openly saying their goal is a lager ratio of white people." I agree with you, but I believe they would like that ration to be 100% white to 0% people of color. America is a Gun, that's a short poem of just a few lines that make perfect sense.
https://www.jta.org/2022/05/19/opinion/overturning-roe-would-be-an-unconscionable-infringement-on-the-religious-freedom-of-orthodox-jews
Here is a fabulous article making the case that overturning Roe would be an unconscionable infringement on the religious freedom of orthodox Jews. Jewish law goes back over 5,000 years or something like that. I had really been wondering why Freedom of Religion wasn't part of the discussion arguing against Alito's draft position on Roe. Alito also ignores Amendment 9 of the Bill of Rights which should be an integral part of originalist thinking. "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." The Constitution explicitly says it is not naming all the rights RETAINED BY THE PEOPLE. To me that means if the significant majority of the people say it is their right it is a right. Time to impeach Alito and Thomas.
Another thing I like about the explanation of Jewish Law in this article is a theme I've been stating many times over. The OR world of black and white is just not sufficient in dealing with all the implications of many issues in life and most certainly in a women's choice. To me Patriarchy is the OR world - you're right or wrong, one up or one down, very primitive. The AND world is egalitarianism where you have the Synergy of multiple perspectives brought together to come up with better solutions for all.
This was a very good article and actually, surprising for me to know that the Orthodox Jews want to protect the woman. Traditionally, the man is seen as the breadwinner, the ruler of the home, etc. The wife is the cook, the cleaner, the educator. I am happy to see there is somewhat of a realistic and caring viewpoint from them.
Per the Mishna and Talmud, the fetus is a part of the woman's body ("like her thigh bone") until it has left her body. And it is not fully human until "God breathes life into it as He did to Adam."
There are several faith traditions that the fetus is not alive until it's first breath.
Can't wait to see what the theocrats on the Supreme Court do with these facts.
Respectfully, those aren't facts, those are beliefs. The concept of viability is relatively new, due to observations of prenatal development, and modern medicine's ability to keep a premature birth alive by mechanical interventions. Thus, viability becomes earlier and earlier– weeks before a newborn could survive out of the womb. Even though most Americans want legal abortions, there is an uncomfortable gray area about when a fetus becomes a baby. Personally, I ask myself if I could abort a pregnancy in the final trimester, and I could not unless things went terribly wrong. These are the dilemmas many Americans face; no abortions vs all abortions whenever. The majority opinion lies somewhere in between. I believe Roe vs. Wade needs revamping, not dissolution, and certainly not by a mandate of 5 very strange guys on the SCOTUS.
The point is, different religions have different beliefs, none of which should be running our secular government, but also none of which represent all religious people. Third trimester abortions happen when a pregnancy goes terribly wrong. Intruding politicians into such difficult times does no good to any one.
Amen, Joan!
Agree!
I think you hit the nail on the head. We are supposed to have a clear separation of church and state. The Bill of Rights states, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion“. This is often interpreted to require separation of church and state.” There are still issues in balancing the establishment clause and the free exercise clause. There are several US Supreme Court cases revolving around this issue trying to parse what is and is not a violation of the establishment clause.
The question of when a fetus becomes a person was settled for Catholics when the Pope decided the soul enters the body at conception. This standard seems to have been taken up by evangelicals, even though they don’t recognize papal authority. The whole conservative stand on abortion turns on a religious answer to what should be a scientific question. But science can’t answer this particular question in a way Christian conservatives like, and apparently they don’t care what Jews think, either.
Well stated!
❤️
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I agree with your ideas here, Hope. But as Joan says, no one's religious beliefs or personal choices should be running our government. And I personally think men should butt out of the conversation. It falls largely to the woman to bear and raise the child. It's mainly her "labor" which births and nourishes the child through at least the first years. Men have no idea of the cost of a woman's energies in doing this. (And, in addition, many women work full time jobs and care for their parents and take care of the house!)
Viability is also a delicate idea, at best. I recently read a piece by a Neonatologist that described the process of ATTEMPTING to keep a very premature infant alive, and it fails most of the time. These babies are too underdeveloped to survive without extreme measures that too often are simply not enough, and the babies that do survive often have severe disabilities. It's a slippery slope.
Don't forget the one strange Handmaiden.
White is not white, Black is not black. Abortion is horrible; the alternative may be far worse.
Hope, You have interest in further inquiry into the role of religion with reference to the abortion rights and to Roe v. Wade. The following is just one source.
'Abortion, Justice, and Religion - Center for American'
Progresshttps://www.americanprogress.org › article › abortion-j...
'Feb 17, 2022 — So, laws banning abortion are a freedom of religion on two fronts. First of all, they theoretically impose one notion about when life begins or... '
Thank you, Fern. I so respect your many inputs here that I wish we could meet in person someday. Namaste!
Namaste. Do we live near one another? Wouldn't it be wonderful if groups of us could meet together semi-annually?
IGNORE, if it doesn't make THEIR case.
In traditional Jewish communities, the ideal occupation for a man is religious study. Although scholars are partially supported by other men who work in paying jobs, wives commonly produce income (and quite literally make the bread). It’s a very different culture from Christian fundamentalism.
Did you know that Steve Schmidt is completing his studies to become a Jew? Republican to Democrat. Christian to Jewish. Steve seems to be getting it right.
He also tweeted this week that Rupert Murdoch is a naturalized citizen and there is a process for denaturalizing. Apparently is happened to Murdoch in England.
and Australia made it clear Rupert Murdoch and his media empire were not particularly welcome.
I look forward to a critical analysis of the “King of the Snake Pit” some day.
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From WaPo in Jan 1981 “At a dinner last month in Washington Honoring MR Murdoch for his work on behalf of Mr. Reagan, Representative Jack Kemp, a New York Republican, said “Rupert Murdoch used the editorial page, the front page, and every other page necessary to elect Ronald Reagan President.” “. Rupert has been the power behind the evil for more decades than is commonly known. His take over of our communication system was planned, executed and put in place while Reagan Democrats were still celebrating. Bill Moyers noticed
Religion and Politics are really two sides of the same coin. Both require moral “decisions” and “tribal” loyalties (loosely interpreted). Schmidt’s dual switch is not only unsurprising, but predictable. Good for him.
That has always been a standard in that culture. I’ve seen it in many Jewish homes that I grew up with having many Jewish friends in junior high school.
The woman is the rib???
Well, I’ve always said, without the ribs, a man would deflate like a punctured balloon full of hot air.
Thank you for my first big grin of the am here on the left coast. Just up with my first cup of coffee which fortunately I was not drinking when I read your post.
Smart woman. I’m still learning that coffee should be sipped and swallowed before reading. That way, my cat doesn’t get showered and I don’t have to clean up one more time before continuing to read. 😎
“Man was created out of woman’s rib because he should stand beside her, not rule over her or stamp her under his foot”.
Better source material than the dust man was fashioned from.
Wait! Orthodox men separate themselves from women. At least in NYC, women must sit in the back of busses, walk behind men and all the other trappings of unreformed beliefs. Of course, as with conservative Catholics and all religions, appreciate the person, but religions restrictions are so outdated regardless.
In Ultra Orthodox practices, women walk ten paces behind the man. My viewpoint about religion is that mostly all of them create barriers. My parents used to tell me I would marry a Jewish lawyer or a doctor. I rebelled and married a nice Irish Catholic boy. We had two girls and we claimed their religion was JIrish. This marriage has lasted 46 years.
No one claimed that Orthodox Judaism is a feminist practise. The claim is twofold: one, Orthodox Judaism is not Christian fundamentalism. two, government laws forbidding abortion violate the religious freedom of Orthodox Jews, whose religious law not only places such decisions in the hands of the pregnant person, but actually requires abortion when it is necessary to save the life of the pregnant person.
This is relevant to the Roe v Wade discussion because the reactionaries are claiming to speak in the name of all religion. They do not. They do not even speak in the name of all right wing religious people. Many Orthodox Jews in the US have in fact seen Republicans as the lesser evil and voted accordingly. They are a group some of whom are going to vote differently as a result of the Alito opinion.
I've said this before but it bears repeating, a great read is A J Jabob's book "A Year of Living Biblically" So enlightening, so darn right spit out your coffee funny, so sincere, its among the top ten books I always recommend!
I believe that all religion is humanly created mumbo jumbo mind control. But as a "goy" who has lived with and loved Jews for 50 plus years, I have always respected the continuous discussion factor. There is this endless re-examination of how traditions and rules should apply to an ever changing world. In a sense, it's how the Founders of our Nation viewed the Constitution.
I guess the only religious tradition I find even slightly worthwhile is a Seder. There is a discussion! Hardship followed by success! I like the food :) There is wine. Lots of wine.
And I can attest from more than one personal experience, the role of the woman, the mother, the sister in Jewish life is powerful in a way that is quite special. And often, quite wise.
The tradition I truly admire is the Bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah, the coming of age ceremony for young teenagers, something sorely missing in American culture. In front of the entire community, they recite all the passages studied and memorized, receive testimony, and generally are told -here are all these great privileges you now have....and here are your new responsibilities. Young people are desperate for an opportunity to demonstrate their readiness for adulthood if we would just give them the chance.
Unfortunately, my experience was that, after several years of Hebrew school (after regular school 4 days/wk), I could read Hebrew, like a parrot, but did not know what the words meant. So the passage of the Torah I read during my Bar Mitzvah was a complete mystery to me. Neither the Rabbi nor anyone else ever discussed it with me. A great waste of time and a lost opportunity. At the time I was a "good boy" and just did what I was told. When I visited Israel many years later, I realized the depth of the problem. Now in (sort of) old age (81) I've taken up the study of Hebrew for enlightenment, but also as a form of "revenge". I've heard from several friends and acquaintances that this method of teaching was common in Hebrew schools at the time. I don't know about now. Also, as far as I know, there were no Bat Mitzvahs in those days, and the women in our congregation sat upstairs in the gallery of the synagogue, separate from the men. It was an Orthodox but not fanatic congregation, although, with the separation of the sexes, one may dispute that. I have no comment.
Thanks you for sharing your personal experience & observations, only-oldish J.!
Coming of age rituals are missing in so many different ways, and the various kinds of wisdom passed down from elders in those initiations. That's what Robert Bly and James Hollis created in their men's groups, and I am honored to be in one modeled on their inspiration.
Recipe for a perfect world. How comprehensive, inclusive and inspiring. I imagine this document generates lively discussion in your classroom. If our Founding Fathers had access to this document when framing The Constitution generations ago, there would be a lot less ambiguity for the Supreme Court to quibble over.
..."religion is humanly created mumbo jumbo mind control." I disagree with your statement. Religions were manifested to give voice to that other part of ourselves that realizes beatific visions in nature, the rapture of seeing a birth, and the explicable yearning for that which lifts us up. The basic concepts are pure. There are millennia of pure devotees to a religion just as there are are people who will deface anything for their own use.
I personally believe that until humanity regains their spiritual center either through an organized religion or a personal spiritual journey based on some core fundamentals we will never ever respect and care of this planet.
Religion can and has connected us with that undefinable sacred center in ourselves.
It sounds as if you are referring to a type of personal spirituality. I suspect that brings you peace and happiness. Sounds great. I have mine as well.
When I say "religion" I am referring to the institutions that have declared theirs to be "the one true faith" and slaughtered those who did not agree. There are a few admirable faith systems for sure. But most organized religions have an awful track record.
I suspect that if we sat down over a cup of coffee and compared values, we would find much in common. But as far as I can see right now, most "Christians" have left the teachings of Jesus in the dust and are now leading promoters of intolerance, exclusion, hate and pure evil.
I make a distinction between spirituality and religion, too.
So agree, Bill. Many a current-day “Christian” could hardly declare themselves true Jesus followers.
Nice. I had not jumped to a specific assumption about your personal path. But reflecting on your original comment, it makes so much sense!
I am at my best when I follow the Tao. I need to revisit the book. I keep it nearby. It helps me "settle my dust".
I like the science of the mind of Tibetan Buddhism. The study and practice of Buddhist concepts keeps me on my mental toes; especially for my Western mind. It's the meditation aspect that settles my dust and actually makes me a nicer person to be around.
And the Tao is so lovely. With its own set of challenges. Those koans....... Wait a minute. Zen has the koans. Right? My apology.
Beautiful thoughts.
"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose." -- from the great song "Me & Bobby McGee" by Kris Kristofferson. Thanks for the article Cathy. Making laws about something that is a decision that should be made by a woman and her doctor is totally wrong. If Roe is overturned by this so-called "Supreme" court, all hell will break lose. That hell being what over 20 states using what is called 'triggers' to make a woman's right to choose illegal and in many cases a felony for her. These mostly old men have no right to overturn Roe, for if they do, many women will likely die. One wonders if we could then charge the majority of the court with at least manslaughter or perhaps murder. And these folks who use religion in their argument against abortion have a right to their views. But they have no right to impose those views on the rest of us. Whatever happened to the separation of church and state?
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I think this is not about abortion for most to the people pushing this rift, Richard. I think it is more that they see it as an opening gambit for power and control, with the clear intent to move on to other opportunities that banning abortion would open up. There is a tremendous backlash, but no way to tell what the outcome of that will be. Maybe the "Court" will come back to basic principles of the rights entrained in the Declaration of Independence, which would be a welcome relief. Or maybe they'll pick out a few things in Roe that would open some control to the states, or even send it to lower courts for review (unlikely, but would certainly make for a strange time). Or maybe they'll overturn it with less strained reasoning than the "Alito draft". In which case there is a movement already in motion to bypass that. I hope to hell it doesn't come to that. Abortion has been a woman's choice from the beginning of time, with the exception of the eugenics movement. Gotta keep that in mind too. That movement began in the early 20th century in the USA.
"One wonders if we could then charge the majority of the court with at least manslaughter or perhaps murder."
It is my understanding that all judges - Supreme or not - have essentially total immunity from both civil and criminal liability from consequences of their decisions. They have been granted this immunity because otherwise they would susceptible to 'outside pressure' - and no other profession is granted such free license to behave corruptly. We, the people, have no legal means of redress when judges behave badly.
https://globalwrong.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/judicial-immunity.pdf
I was taught that we have laws that uphold the separation of church & state in high school. Has the law changed? Or is it just not being enforced?
Not being enforced
Not enforced.😔😡
So if it’s not being enforced, who do we petition to get the law that separates church from state then?
Separation of Church and State is in the First Amendment to the Constitution. I do not believe there are any laws on the books, either state or federal making violations criminal.
The only route I know of is to find someone with standing who can bring a case to court that claims they are being harmed by the lack of separation of church and state.
That's a hard find. And with the religious zealots now in majority on the,Supreme Court, I doubt anyone would have any success.
Pretty pitiful, isn't it?
‘Originalist’…PT Barnum must have ‘coined’ that word! Consider, the ‘Originals’ who wrote the Constitution allowed for only white men to vote!…..stop..think about it!….the so called originalists should be advocating for a return to that limitation…..now that I think about it, seems like the red states wacky legislators are trying to blast us back to that era with their restrictive voting laws!
There’s a reason Alito’s draft references an English male judge from the 1300s who burned women as witches. That’s where he wants to go.
It’s hard for me to believe that a modern man, let alone a Supreme Court Justice, would hinge a judgment on the mentality of antiquity. It’s just so backwards! What is happening to the progress of life, liberty & the pursuit
of happiness?
Alioto had to go back to England for a "common law" reference. In American "common law" in the earliest non-Catholic settlements, abortion was not illegal until 1820, and it was only illegal then "after the time of the quickening." Per midwives and church records, 16-20 weeks. For many centuries, that's when God breathed The Holy Spirit into the developing human being--ensoulment.
I don't think it a coincidence that the international average gestational age for a woman to be able to make her own decision to end her pregnancy is 16 weeks.
That was my point all along. Abortion bans are a war on the woman VOTER, not just the women. Same as Immigration restrictions are a war against Black and Brown VOTERS All these “minority” groups will be majority over the White voters within the next 10 years. Women already are more than 50% over men voters
YES, and I have been saying that all along! The inter-mingling of different races and cultures should actually be encouraged because only then, will these white supremacists be brought down to their knees.
At 16, I was (happily) kicked out of conservative Jewish consecration class for making that same point, Marlene. We were encouraged by our teacher, the rabbi's wife to socialize solely within our tribe. After pointing out that that approach would likely result in others fearing us and possibly hating us for being different, I was pointed to the door. Diversity, at least of thought, is an essential component of a democracy. I guess the more observant value debate, only amongst themselves.
It is so important to go off script.
We never had consecration classes! I was raised conservative also. You see, Wendy, they all want to manage our lives. Thank goodness there are plenty of people who see beyond that and say “no thank you”.
Powerful, Wendy, and by 16 (perhaps before)!
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The perfect recipe for women & people of color to go to any length to VOTE! I am hopeful that these Republican tactics will be an exercise in shooting them selves in the foot! 🌊🌊🌊🌊
Both/and thinking usually creates a more positive outcome than either/or thinking. The Republican Taliban is actually quite primitive when you think about it.
Ah! Yes! They go with the Shiite Christians, right?
Absolutely. Something sub.
The Christo-fascists don't care about anyone's freedom of religion but their own. And they want to force it on the rest of us.
This is so true. They have been organizing for years.
I first ran into them just before Carter was elected President. At the time, it was vaguely amusing. First, God wanted Republican Reagan elected, then changed his mind and went for Democrat Carter. Go figure.
They have been very focused and adamant, and I fear that we are less so, and may lose a lot because of this.
My hope is that many who are silent pay attention and will vote.
If overturning Roe v Wade would pose an "unconscionable infringement" to Jews the anti-Jewish zealots in this Country would be happy.
Thank you, Cathy. This is an informative article. I also like your second paragraph about black and white thinking. I wonder why so many prefer to be told what is right rather than to deal with complexities and take agency in making decisions for themselves. I wonder what the root is, psychologically.
Daniel Kahnemann would tell you that thinking takes energy, it's hard work. People are mentally lazy and save their psychic energy for choosing which Macdo to eat.
I'm reading The Undoing Project by Michael Lewis now. It's amazing how illogical and biased the human mind, even a "scientific" mind, can be.
Yes, I think laziness is a human trait, something we all have to grapple with. Cynicism, though, is a judgment.
Laziness.
Partially. I’m certain that there are people who thrive on being told what to do and how to do it. There is a comfort (for some) in having that rigid structure.
My brother & I were talking about this in regards to our adult children & how our sons are into black & white thinking & get irate with grey areas. We are a bit dumbfounded because we don't see that among our 8 siblings, so where did this come from?
Yes. I’ve not been much of a fan of “either-or”…much to my dad’s pride and dismay. I’m more of a “but-and” kind of person. It’s just so much more inclusive and fun.
Thank you for sharing this link. It's time to either begin impeachment proceedings and/or expand this Stench Bench. Six extremists, five of whom are Catholic, do not have the authority - whether they have a lifetime appointment to wear a robe or not - to overturn the first amendment to our Constitution and dictate their own religious beliefs to an entire nation and over half of its citizens. This is not the 12th century, and they are not the Catholic Inquisition reinstated, no matter what they think about themselves. They are a bunch of unregulated, spoiled, dishonest thugs that WE pay to sit on those thrones and "judge" others.
‘Stench bench’….a brilliant name for a foul group of 6!
Well one can of course try to talk to the extreme right (or often these days even the extreme left) about protecting the jewish religion and culture but.......history and much current political and ideological stupidity might suggest that they would be more than somewhat motivated to gleefully continue on their way while thanking you for bringing them such good news.....and probably with rude gestures to accompany their disdainful words.
Yes, Stuart, that is my fear. Having been raised Jewish by Holocaust victims, in a small southern Baptist town, is a reminder of what may come. I am not a very religious person but I do support my heritage, my own history.
Jews believe life begins upon the exit from the womb. Not before. Jews do not hold baby showers. They wait until that wee creature in swaddling clothes is viable. As to the reversal of Roe: This has been a long slog for evangelical faux Christians. Alito sees himself as the new "Don of the Supreme Court", writing a terribly pithy opinion. Those Justices, so concerned about the fetus, can care less once that wee being is out into the world. Republicans love to hang on the coat tails of those driven by sinister and evil beliefs.
" Those Justices, so concerned about the fetus, can care less once that wee being is out into the world. " I think you mean "couldn't care less".
I always seem to confuse that term! But, in fairness, my thought is not lost -- I hope.
Lots of people say it that (wrong) way. It was said by all the characters on "The West Wing" years ago. Of course it's clear what you (and they) meant, but it's easy to say it correctly, and it makes sense that way!
Got it. Point made.
I’m an AND; the ORs are those who see the world as a round hole and only the “roundest” fit.
Yes, but....this is not a unilateral position, as the article points out. I am aware of situations in my work where Orthodox women have told their physicians they did not want to continue a pregnancy because of the severe genetic complications and were forced by their rabbis and husbands to do so. Maybe some Orthodox women are "empowered" but by and large many are not. I'm glad this woman had an option, but, it is also of note that we are not told what her choice was. The cultural and religious pressure she was under may have in the end, proved determinative.
If you read the article, it says clearly that there is a range of opinions among Orthodox rabbis. (That’s actually a safe statement on any topic whatsoever. Judaism values conflicting opinions as a path to understanding.) Any woman is going to be dealing with pressures within her family and community when making important choices. Strengthening womens positions within those contexts is another part of the work. The point here, is that Jewish law says it is her choice to make - and that laws taking away that choice violate her ability to do so.
The same would apply if a state law took away her choice to have a baby. Keep in mind that the era of illegal abortion was also a time of forced sterilization of women of color. The white supremacists are openly saying their goal is a larger ratio of white people. That’s the “logic” behind mass shootings.
On a less grim note, according to Jewish law a fetus - no matter how eagerly expected - becomes a person at its first breath outside the woman’s body. It’s a theological question. There’s a Jewish joke that a fetus is not considered viable until it graduates from medical school.
In any case, in Jewish law a woman is a person. A pregnant woman is one person, and that person is the woman.
And according to Jewish law, a girl becomes a woman and a boy becomes a man at the age of thirteen. I love that Jewish joke about a fetus!
Thank you for bringing up our history of forced sterilization. What concerns me the most about overturning Roe v Wade is a government that has the power to determine you can’t have an abortion is a government that can turn around and determine you can’t have children when it suits its purpose. Be that forced sterilization, or as former policy in China, a restriction on how many children you are allowed to have.
One has to wonder if once birth control is outlawed, will the Republicans next demand involuntary mandatory insemination?
Thanks, Joan. In you last paragraph you wrote "The white supremacists are openly saying their goal is a lager ratio of white people." I agree with you, but I believe they would like that ration to be 100% white to 0% people of color. America is a Gun, that's a short poem of just a few lines that make perfect sense.
Thanks for your clear thinking on this.
Great share! Thank you.