For all the Pollyannas who have been posting that we have to be nicer to the other side, I post the 43 GOP controlled legislatures currently working to undermine if not destroy the democracy that allegedly underpins this constitutional democratic republic. Anyone want to try "nice talk" with those people? In the current situation, those …
For all the Pollyannas who have been posting that we have to be nicer to the other side, I post the 43 GOP controlled legislatures currently working to undermine if not destroy the democracy that allegedly underpins this constitutional democratic republic. Anyone want to try "nice talk" with those people? In the current situation, those people are The Enemy. They have delcared war on the country, whether anyone here likes it or not. Nice talk and longings for bipartisanship don't work with wolverines.
TC, you are sometimes a bit blunt, but I always respect your opinion, and mostly agree with you. Today, I TOTALLY agree with you. I don't want to see the Democratic Party turn into a more liberal version of the Republican Party, but for now, I think the big stick needs to come out. I seriously cannot wrap my brain around how we got to another phase in our history where the "leaders" in our states are trying to take us backward into a time where prejudice is the norm and if you aren't white, you shouldn't have the same rights. Back to pretending oil will last forever and alternative energy isn't needed; a time where climate change is completely ignored, and so are killer viruses. And back to a time where lies flow like honey out of the mouths of demagogues that we have allowed to take power because it is easier to believe their BS than it is to fight for equality and the rights of all people. I really really don't want to go back there again. And I don't want my grandchildren to grow up in that poison. I agree, nice talk and longing for bipartisanship just feeds their rhetoric and the hatred that comes out of it. We can and must do better, and we are seriously running out of time.
I do not think they are trying to take us backwards in time. I think this country has never really moved on from the Civil War division. People hate “other.” It is present and fully thriving in this country.
Republican leadership has proved themselves unworthy of careful consideration or bipartisan negotiation. It’s time for Democrats to lead. Republicans can either follow or get out of the way. What we can no longer allow is their obstruction. America awaits our action; end the filibuster and get on with governing.
We also need to let our Democratic Senators and Representatives know that bipartisanship is not a high priority for us. I've written to mine (Murray, Cantwell, Larsen) at least twice now that I don't care about bipartisanship at this point; I do care about getting things done.
T: Yesterday’s Letter recounted the March to Selma. The use of a most powerful force of nonviolence. Sit-ins, disruption of economic activity, voter registration drives, etc - all set against the threats of ropes and nooses, dogs and kidnappings ...
These efforts were based on love and ‘just anger’. There was no attempt to falsely carry on "nice talk”. This movement begins within one’s heart. A moral strength lived within people who acted so courageously.
So I felt a need to clarify, for myself in this spirit of the March to Selma, that I see no need to disparage and insult another person or a group of people on this board, as I had done. I agree with you about everything you have stated about the actions of the GOP. But please do not mistake my intention to be less significant than another in our struggle.
I feel it does me, imho - no good to waste my mental energy on creating within me a life of fear, hatred and an obsession of The Enemy. Ironically, the pastor of the home church for King, Rev Raphael Warnock, is now a US Senator from Georgia! Senator Warnock has the moral force with him!
Fittingly, the man who has stayed above the political infighting, Joe Biden, now sees soaring approval ratings, as he simply makes the moral case for the survival of our democracy. Biden will be the guide for our collective march, arm-in-arm, toward a more just society. Appropriately, Biden takes the moral high ground, by starting, “I am the president for all Americans, whether you voted for me or not. I will be your president”
What a breath of clear, fresh air, after too many years of angst, hatred and dissonance! Biden’s approval proves that a kind heart gathers unknown friends and allies.
I agree that we must not become obsessed with the opposition. However, I also agree with TC's belief that the current majority in the Republican party is dangerous to this nation and its citizens - all of them, even if they haven't realized it yet. I am thrilled with President Biden, and his remaining above the fray is political genius, as well as a sign of his decency and honor. However, Biden always has a Plan B in case his staying above the fray doesn't work. I believe it translates to walking softly, but carrying a big stick.
Well, if we are going to compare Biden first to FDR, like everybody in the news is doing now, and then to Teddy Roosevelt, he’s going to have a hell of a legacy.
That’s funny, but when I was writing that Biden is probably the best president of my lifetime, I had to consider JFK and Eisenhower. I was too young to know them or what they were doing and I haven’t researched them: I’m not a historian. Trust me, six weeks ago I had no idea that I would be praising Biden like this. I am not raving about him, I don’t feel that level of adoration in me. I am just watching these words come out, in astonishment, because I really didn’t have any respect for him.
Biden's delivery lacks the charisma of Roosevelt (FDR) because of his speech struggles, and Kennedy could have been a movie star with his looks and stage presence (and beautiful, patrician Jackie), but more and more I believe that Biden has the chops. I recall Eisenhower's "I like Ike" slogan, but was too young to have any idea whether he was competent. We might be speaking too soon, considering the short time he's been in office, and with so much damage control ahead, but I believe the potential for greatness is there. He has certainly delivered amazingly these last 48 days - enough so that we're beginning to see many in the GOP scrambling to readjust their images, if that's possible. They see the threat.
You could be a journalist. I think you’re talking for upwards of 100 million people in this country alone. You’re probably talking for 80 or 90% of this forum.
Wow, now that's flattery! At my age, and with no training in journalism, I think you're being way too nice, but I am flattered. When Geoff Duncan, our Lt. Governor, boycotted the newest voter suppression legislation in Georgia, I had an aha moment. He sees landmines, and is wanting to have broader appeal, as has Romney. They're betting on rewards if they can manage to lose the Trumpstink. I'm guessing that the entire world is grateful, and a bit surprised at Biden's performance - no Sleepy Joe visible.
I’ve posted here several times in the past that we need to listen to the other side, we need to understand them, and we need to not underestimate them. I am with you, Daria - I have never said be nice to them. Know thine enemy. If you don’t know / understand them you can’t fight or defend against them.
I have a good deal of respect for your comments and can identify with much of your personal journey. Most of my family was and is liberal, though my maternal grandparents were as conservative and bigoted as the day is long. Their very narrow opinions made for a lot of friction in my youth including me letting them know how objectionable they were socially and morally. I'm afraid I lacked tact and grace more than I do now and by the time I was 20 had damaged my relationship with them beyond repair. When my grandfather died in 1974 we were on very bitter terms. My relationship with my grandmother improved a great deal but still, by the time she died in the early aughts, there were huge gaps in our relationship because of our personal beliefs. Now, I am constantly at loggerheads with my in-laws. They are wealthy, well educated and viciously Republican. If there has been a silver lining in Covid it's been our inability, (and unwillingness), to travel freely thus reducing my face to face exposure to their ever growing hate. They are in their 80s and 90s and will never change their points of view. All this despite the fact they have a Black granddaughter. They are unwilling to acknowledge how potentially damaging their beliefs are to her future as an American. She is eight. There will come a time, though, if they live long enough, where their bigotry and racism will become more apparent and impactful to her personally. I hope it never goes that far.
“Why do I surprise you?” Thank you for your transparency about yourself. That honesty answers the question. I didn’t have really good words for how to describe your post: sharp, biting, incisive. You just have a wickedly good insight into the whole Republican-Party-Kissing- Trump’s-Ass thing that just happened. Super nice insight.
Your tale about your in-laws: my dad is Republican conservative wealthy and downright stupid. I’m trying to decide what is harder, well-educated bigoted conservative in-laws or Dummkopf conservative bigoted father. The one constant is that they all seem to be rockheads. A jackhammer wouldn’t even do the trick of cracking them.
Ah, well, thanks. I appreciate that. I honestly believe wealthy, well educated bigots inflict a lot more harm in both the short and long run. They have the money to influence and frequently the ability to craft appealing rhetoric that sounds both logical and socially appropriate. They can justify murder if they have a mind to.
A lot of factors have brought me to where I am today. A lot about my childhood and teenage years did not strike me as unusual at the time. The realization that most people didn't have a 5 day a week maid or places to spend the summer just didn't hit home while I was "living in it". I look back on what was normal for my family at and am stunned by how fortunate we were, how much we took for granted. How many assumptions I made. The first huge eye opener was in the summer between my Junior and Senior years. I participated in a summer theater program at Montgomery Blair High School in Silver Spring, MD. I became friends with a Black girl from DC during that summer. One day, she didn't come back to the theater from the restroom. I went to find her because we were reading scenes and we're up next. I found her in the bathroom beaten up, with a wet head, full of bubble gum. Her head had been dunked in the toilet. Several of Montgomery County's finest white girls were responsible. As horrified and angry as I was I cannot begin to understand the pain that young woman felt. I cannot imagine living with that experience embedded in my brain for the rest of my life. Of course, she never came back. And, of course, it didn't make the Post or the Star, because events like that were kept quiet and brushed under the rug. I'd love to tell you that that story is a figment of my imagination, but it's not. I will tell you that it was a huge epiphany for me. Had I seen racism before that day? Yes. Had I ever encountered that level of violence on a personal level before that incident? No. That one day forced me to understand racism viscerally, not just intellectually. It forced me to reevaluate everyone and everything around me. And speak up.
Daria, I had a little time to read comments this evening. Your story, stopped me from going on. Seeing the attack on your friend appears to be embedded in you. I wasn't a witness as you were, but the ugliness, disrespect and condescension that I saw as a child impressed me to know more. My antipathy to racism seems to be brain wired. Thank you, Daria, for sharing your experience.
Daria this is just brilliant. I have to include lynching and vicious violence in my screeds about the Republican Party being the bastion of the old Confederacy. I have to mention summary killings of Native Americans, by U.S. Cavalry, by settlers, by Spaniards and Texans and Californians and . . . . . . . Whites-first, racism, is not just genteel policy arguments on HCR and in the halls of Congress and state legislatures. Racism is DANGEROUS. Racism is GENOCIDAL. Racism, sexism, gay-ism, kills people. These are not polite conversation. When TC talks about “they pull out a knife, you pull out a gun,” these are not empty metaphors.
TC, easily the best post of the day and possibly your best work here on HCR. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
The last time I saw my grandmother in 1987 she was in her 80s and in a nursing home in Mississippi. I didn’t tell her that I had married a “nigra” woman & don’t know if anyone else in the family let her in on this ‘secret.’ I was her first grandson and sort of favorite. What would be the point? She and her generation were leaving.
Hey, I don’t have a problem with anyone nice-talking the enemy. And then while someone is nice-talking them, hit them with the
effing sledgehammer. Pass SB1, eliminate gerrymandering and the other bogus crap, and relegate those people to permanent minority status. All the while people can sweet talk them. Who cares about talk.
Roland, Lynn, there is a danger in all this for the country's defenders: you're dealing with deluders and the deluded. And... this remark of Karl Popper's has become like a jack-in-the-box in my mind:
"To attack a man for talking nonsense is like finding your mortal enemy drowning in a swamp and jumping in after him with a knife."
Someone mentioned the need for thigh boots when wading into this swamp.
Hey, Peter. Not sure if you are talking to me here (some people call me Lynn) but just wanted to clarify that my comment went more to correcting the source of the line TC used re pulling a gun over a knife. It wasn't from the movie Raiders, but the movie The Untouchables.
This got me to thinking, since TC is pretty accurate in his comments. So I did a search and came up with this from SNOPES:
"As it turned out, the comment was indeed made by then-Senator Obama at a fundraising event in the City of Brotherly Love, and it was not ignored by mainstream media outlets at the time. The New York Times, reported on 14 June 2008 that:
"Senator Barack Obama was fund-raising in Philadelphia. But he was talking about 'the Chicago way.'
"Channeling the mob drama, 'The Untouchables,' Mr. Obama said in reference to the general election rumble with the Republicans: 'If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun.'”
Just FYI: Being a fan of living in a civilized society, I am not invested in the use of either a knife or a gun to make things "right." But I do enjoy the fantasy of a good movie where all kinds of laws are broken in the pursuit of justice. Just sayin'.
No, Lynell, I seem to have had an attack of the gremlins and don't know where "Lynn" came from. I was responding to Roland and (I guess) Diane Love.
I'd noticed the talk of guns and knives, but the quote from Karl Popper was nothing to do with all that. Just about the difficulties and dangers of dealing with knaves, suckers and their swamp, without getting drawn into it.
I'll admit to making frequent use of other men's sayings, but surely there's no harm in that when they express my thoughts better than I could express them myself. My hackles are raised by secondhand thinking -- when people adopt readymade prejudices. And I don't care whose prejudices we're talking about. I just want to ask people, what do YOU think, what do YOU feel?
That is what I appreciate when reading this thread.
If I said yesterday that, for me, David Carroll was welcome to ask his questions and put his views, I still feel the same way. What I'm not interested in is what his granddad or his party told him he was supposed to think. But the same goes for everyone, from right, from left, from center.
There's no interest in anyone, let alone politicians, who just says the right thing. We need to be one with our word.
How refreshing to be part of an online community where people quote Karl Popper. Alas, that thoughtful conservative would be a liberal in America's conservative party, or more likely, unwelcome altogether. Alas!
I always love that line too. TC you’re pulling that line out at exactly the right time. I could be wrong, but it looks like Biden is sweet talking them to their face and stabbing them in the back. Sweetly. Just as you suggest.
Biden has the Republicans’ backs too. They just can’t recognize it. When we remove the knife they might see the reality that they have become better off as a result of his tough love.
We all need to remember that there are Republican politicians, then Republican citizens. Of course, the third subset is Trumpublicans - hopefully an endangered species.
His years in politics are serving all of us magnificently. I did not think I would catch myself saying this, Joe Biden was not my first choice, but he might be the best president I have seen in my lifetime. He is doing everything I would’ve wanted my first choice to do, and more. He is an attack dog. TC, are you seeing what I’m seeing with this Biden character? Does he meet up to your Sean Connery and Harrison Ford standards?
They actually just came up with that on the fly doing the scene. originally, Indy was supposed to use his bullwhip, but Harrison Ford said that all the Han Solo fans who were going to come see the movie weren't going to buy him doing that after he killed Greedo in the good Star Wars movie.
I heard a different story, that he was sick that day and just trying to get through the day. He came up with the idea on the fly to end the scene quickly. I met my first actor ever a month ago, I’ll have to ask her.
The story I heard is from the era when Indiana Jones was produced, so perhaps you are right. Who knows. I’m not in that industry.
Hey TC, I asked you some questions elsewhere in this great discussion you started. I called Joe Biden an attack dog, among other things, (really? did I say that?) and I actually said that I thought, against my earlier opinion, that he might actually be living up to your Sean Connery and Harrison Ford standard. I was wondering what your take is on that. Like I said elsewhere here, Joe Biden was not my first choice, and I did not think I was going to like him. But now you are bringing the subject up. What’s your opinion?
My first reaction was “but that’s what TFG (the former guy) would and did do.” I’ve got to toughen up and get more ballsy, admittedly an anatomical stretch for me, as does the rest of the Democratic Party.
"The GOP-led Georgia Senate just voted 29-20 to PASS #SB241, one of the worst voter suppression bills in the country. It would end no-excuse mail voting, increase voter prosecution, and add racist ID requirements. The GOP continues their relentless attack on voting rights."
I suspect that the ACLU and many other groups have all the paperwork pre-set for the law suits to start rolling in. It is going to be important to help finance the legal defense funds that are going to be litigating against these New Jim Crow laws.
After reading a story in The Hill (I wait for Letters until the coffee is brewed) on the "surprise retirement" of a half dozen Republican senators, I had the idle thought as I poured the magic bean fluid of "We are going to have to Abrams the s*%t out of those states".
Quote from Matt Damon in "The Martian" where he says he has to "science the s*%t out of his surroundings to insure his survival.
Ally, this comment makes my day! I’m all about science-ing the s*%t out of stuff, but had never thought of my modus operandi in those terms. And Abrams-ing the s*%t out of several states is my new goal. Let’s go!!
The bright side: voter suppression has never been this obvious. Every news article I read calls it what it is, even if it doesn’t always mention the racist underpinning.
This is also creating problems within GA's GOP, as they realise this voter suppression can also hurt THEM. Abrams and GA Democrats are on it, so I don't think it will proceed without a fight. Even Raffensperger and Gov. Kemp oppose restricting mail-in voting. After all, it WAS put forward several years ago by the GA GOP. I don't expect things to necessarily sail through without resistance. It'd be curious to see how H.R. 1, currently before Congress, might affect some of these blatantly discriminatory voting restrictions.
Ah yes. Geoff Duncan is boycotting. I smell a run for higher office coming. Kemp has to be careful to not alienate moderate Republicans, suburban women, and the moderate Democrats, since Trumpers want to burn him at the stake.
As Bruce Sellers wrote, “This is also creating problems within GA's GOP, as they realise this voter suppression can also hurt THEM.”
Remember: it is by shining the light into the dark corners that you root out the cockroaches and the corruption. Personally I think we have the Social Lepers party on the run. Between the Trumpster versus principled Republican fights, which includes and likely inspired the half dozen recent Senatorial retirements, and the spotlight on racist voter suppression legislation, the Good Side is winning. But I’m with TC and the rest of you: pedal to the metal. Keep the accelerator floored. Keep the aircraft throttle firewalled. GO TEAM‼️🎉❤️
Not sure “nice talk” will be necessary. Their act is slowly becoming irrelevant. Georgia’s potential law is so nakedly racist that it will achieve at best, a Pyrrhic victory.
The struggle will admittedly be long and hard. But the Neanderthals are clearly on the run.
I often wonder, “What is the barrier to entry” to becoming a State (or Federal) legislature. Any state that would pass, or attempt to pass, a law making it illegal to feed, provide water, or in any way give material comfort to people waiting waiting in line to vote, would seem to have searched for the dumbest of the dumb to prop up in a legislative capacity. In the above case the fact that this is the product of panicked, vicious minds is obvious. But it’s not even self-serving. It is simply the capstone on a law that will provide vigorous, determined and highly motivated resistance.
The cracks are already appearing in this minority party. Mitt Romney and others are beginning to embrace the possibility of social programs, etc. So, some of the opposition are realizing that they have to change their game plan. Even though Georgia Republicans are abandoning any attempt to portray themselves as pro-citizen, the Lt. Governor is boycotting this slew of repressive legislation. My guess is that he realizes that there will be tremendous pushback, and he has higher political aspirations that will be in danger That's good, but we need to continue to resist, and relax only a bit when it is clear that the Republicans have abandoned their forays into fascism and have a common goal of representing all citizens, not the interests of big business. As you so aptly stated Eric,, "the struggle will admittedly be long and hard."
Nancy- Your words are true, holding "the enemies of Democracy accountable without apology or being "pollyanna" about this dire attack on Democracy. I wish to emmulate your razor sharp words that surgically expose the cancer of autocracy. Even though you are gracious, no one should mistake you for being Pollyanna.
Jay, thank you so much for the compliments. Yes, I talk way too much, and spend some time "counseling" friends who are much nicer than I when they fret about "how could they do that" and man's inhumanity to man. I'm something of a mild cynic, and while I hope for the best in people and institutions, I see potential pitfalls. True - no Pollyanna here.😉
I have long believed in the adage (I think it might be a Chinese saying - not sure): one cannot reason with mad dogs. Generally, where I grew up, a "mad dog" was handled with a burst of icy water. What I long for is to ice the GOP. Maybe if these obstructionist ancients have to stand and orate for hours on end a few of them will drop. One can hope.
Being criminalized certainly qualifies as an icy blast of cold. Half a dozen Republican senators retiring, that’s another blow to their collective egos. Ellen, have you seen any of the video of whiners who were at the January 6 Riot and then were placed on the No Fly list, or Richard Barnett’s temper tantrum in court? That’s just the beginning. The biggest wake-up call for them will probably be Donald Trump going to jail. Before that happens, all 800 January 6 rioters will already be arrested. All of this pushback from the justice system and from their corporate funders is a big wake-up call for these smug buffoons.
TC, get your facts straight. First, there are 49 legislatures that can be "controlled" as you put it. Nebraska is a unicameral legislature who's members are voted in nonpartisan.
As of February 1, 2021, 30 legislatures are totally controlled by Republicans with 23 States where the legislature and governorship is Republican. 18 legislatures are controlled by Democrats with 15 States having both the legislature and governor being Democrat. So where did the 43 come from?
When HCR talked about the one-party South from 1878 to the 1960s, she wasn't referring to "Dixiecans" but "Dixiecrats." The Democratic Party has a longer history of disenfranchisement of voting and other rights than the Republicans.
"The Democratic Party has a longer history of disenfranchisement of voting and other rights"
So what?? That was then, this is now. It's tedious to listen to folks who can't, or won't, distinguish between the Dems of the 1850s or Jim Crow era, and the contemporary Party. It is literally ignorant, i.e. ignor-ant, a deliberate choice to remain uninformed by disregarding facts. After the VRA in 1965, southern Dem vote suppressors migrated to the GOP where they found a hearty welcome. They've spent 50 years perfecting the suppression strategy and STILL won't cease and desist.
Another crucial difference today is that the GQP seeks, not to control or limit democracy, but to destroy it. The mob of filthy, seditious insurrectionists who stormed the Capitol was overwhelmingly Repuglycan; they will wear that badge of dishonor for eternity. It's not necessary to reprise their dismal litany of illegal and unconstitutional actions under Der Pu$$enGropenFuhrer, but anyone who doesn't see the pattern is ignor-ant. Dems have never had anything like the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy Hillary identified many years ago. Now, excuse me, I'm off to burn the Confederate flag in public.
I think you missed my point about the problem of one party domination. HCR referred to the time period, not I. And that period was lead by Democrats. I had written more, but chose to delete it.
As for the so what of history, perhaps Foner's 2017 interview in the Nation can shed some light.
I don't deal in abstractions. National one-party rule is an abstraction, far less important than the actual, concrete results of GQP voter suppression and gerrymandering -- the product of one-party domination of red states. Dr Foner is a friendly acquaintance whose work is very familiar to me. Anyone can rummage through his oeuvre to find something that might support their views, especially from an interview which carries less weight than written publications. But his entire career shows that the large majority of his thought runs counter to yours.
I wrote a long reply, posted it, and then deleted it.
First, as I see it, you are dealing in abstractions now. You, and others, have yet to prove that the GOP gerrymanders and that their success in "red" states is a result of such a charge. More importantly, you and others make it sound that Dems have never engaged in such activity. More importantly, as this inane threat started, it's based on an opinion that will be spread as truth. I only pointed out the facts and reassert what HCR stated, one party domination is wrong. We saw it with the Southern Democrats in the South for nearly 100 years. Your better argument would have been, right, but we've learned our lessons and are trying to change.
Second, I've read Dr. Foner's work. Agree with some, not sure I accept other points of view. But, I do agree that we need a usable history to make progress at working towards the goals of our Constitution. Maybe we should adopt the high school requirements of the Germans. Make our students visit slave housings on a plantation or German/Italian/Japanese internment camps (built during the Democratic Presidencies of Wilson and Roosevelt) or walk the streets of disadvantaged neighborhoods/slums/jails/battlefields where Native Americans died, etc. Maybe then they'll realize what our history is really like and make an effort to do better.
Third, and final point, I believe we need to start looking for common ground versus the great divide we now endure. It's hard work, but it needs to be done. And, I believe President Biden's call to end this Uncivil War, one that both parties share in the blame, must be started. That doesn't mean rolling over and playing dead. But, it does mean listening to what others say. Dems hold the national power now. If they want to continue to and disrupt the trend of mid-term elections, the party needs to find a common ground to bring Republicans into their camp. Calling them the GQP isn't it.
Ok, on the gerrymandering question, I already mentioned California's history, that's all I know. End of story. The other experts here will have to engage you, and by now, they are reading the current HCR discussion. This page is old news.
I am of the opinion that the Southern Democrat Party bears little or no relation to the modern Democratic Party, but here again, Dr. Richardson or TPJ or Stuart or someone else will have to step in. In Lincoln's election, it was more like Europe is today, a multi-party system instead of a 2-party system, with 4 viable parties competing for representation in the WH. Somehow Lincoln won the election in what I have seen called in California a "jungle" election, which is a free-for-all, with everyone on the same ballot and not separate ballots like a primary election. The Southern Democrats became the party of the KKK, as disaffected Southerners, because it was the party of Southerners to begin with. Then somehow the Southern Democrats became merged with the Democrats, or changed names, I don't know, then LBJ and the Voting Rights Act drove them to the Republican Party.
I've never read Dr. Foner. That's between you and TPJ.
Of course I am in complete agreement with your statement about the high school requirements of the Germans. As far as I'm concerned, getting American high school students out of the classroom and into the field would give them education and knowledge they sorely lack.
Your final point about common ground: of course I agree completely, why else are you and I here having this conversation. I have had my father all my life, and I have engaged (albeit to a limited degree) in his social circle for decades, so I am accustomed to engagement and finding common ground. He and I love each other, even though we have so little in common, as it turns out, politically and socially. But nevertheless common ground is there, kindness, civility, generosity, mutual respect, there is plenty to recommend my father. People rave about him to me all the time.
I have received a bit of blowback, nothing serious but noticeable, here on HCR and elsewhere for taking what are apparently controversial positions. To your point: I think Adam Kinzinger, Ben Sasse, Mitt Romney voting for impeachment the 1st time, and other Republicans I could name, make a lot of sense, and they get my respect. Not my approval necessarily, not my undying love, but my respect. Even McConnell, whose methods I despise, has come out against the criminal Trump.
I hope you are ok with me disparaging 45, because this guy is so dirty in so many ways that it's impossible to keep track. He will need a presidential library just to contain all the evidence. Greg Olear on Substack has done numerous deep dive investigations, and nothing that comes out is ever pretty. Often, when the context is pertinent, I write his name as Tя☭mp because of his partnership with Putin. Remember them in Helsinki? Finland is kinda, sorta, in the Russian sphere of influence. From the Russian point of view, Finland is neutral ground, a fitting place for that meeting. Did we ever think we'd see a president who is friends with the leader of Russia? There is also sex crimes, there is NYC mob history (real estate related), there is financial corruption, each of these categories will require an entire wing in his presidential library.
Dr. Heather Cox Richardson tends to limit herself to what she knows, she has made that very clear, which means U.S. history. Russia is not her area of knowledge or expertise, so she stays on firm ground. However, I do not run this web site, I am not a respected historian with a reputation to uphold, I am merely a student, so I can speak as I please. These named Republicans care about the democracy enough, and are unswayed by the current anti-democratic tide enough, to get my tacit approval. My father voted for Mitt Romney back when he was running against Obama. I would have a conversation with Larry Hogan or Ben Sasse in a heartbeat. They might not get my vote if I were in their district, but hey, they would probably get my dad's vote.
Personally, I don't find it offensive to call the GOP the "GQP." However, I want to set the table with you, and that conversation is quite a bit more controversial than what we have been discussing, so I'll table it for now. I will say this: I do not identify as a Democrat. I may vote Democrat, but that's it, I do not affiliate with parties, although I could call myself a Green, which, curiously and ironically, appeared in Bavaria, the home of my heritage. If the Democratic Party started attracting racists and anti-Semites to its cause, I would disown them in a heartbeat. The man with the shirt that says "Camp Auschwitz" on the front and "Staff" on the back is not my friend. My wife saw that in real time, on TV, on January 6. She is half Jewish, her maternal relatives were wiped out of their town in what is now Belarus by the Germans. That's just an aside, but it's pertinent because it refreshes my other point, that these genteel words in print on HCR's web page may seem divorced from the real world, but they are not. Anti-Semitism wasted millions of lives. I have relatives who fought and died on what Nazi Germany called "the Eastern front," when Russians and eastern Europeans were considered subhumans. So blood is at stake here. Lives at are stake.
Speaking for myself, a party that coddles and takes in money and support from that demographic is not going to make me smile or make me just walk away.
In closing, Larry, I just want to say I am not conflict averse. I have defused tensions here. Not always successfully, but that seems to be my role, much more than being a source of history knowledge. So you can bring up anything with me that you like, anything. I can handle it. If I don't know enough, if my resources are insufficient, I will say so. I am that guy who runs counter to the stereotype: I use maps. I get directions. I read the instructions. I rely on resources and information, and I'm not shy about it. But I also don't accept information blindly, I am acutely aware of the reliability of a source, and even then, you have to remain cautious. For example, I am very skeptical of giving a political news TV show the name "Reliable Sources." Come on. If you just believe what people tell you, you deserve the consequences of being a misguided fool. That's how the Russians view DT, by the way, "a useful fool," a tool.
I stand on firm ground in certain areas, and when I do, you will have to use convincing arguments to get me to agree.
Good talking to you.
Hope your experience here in Dr. Richardson's subscriber community goes more smoothly from now on.
Enjoy the rest of your day and week. My best to you and your family.
Hello again Larry! I'm at home, on my laptop, I can actually follow the discussion much more easily because of the much larger screen. It's snowing where I live in rural mountainous California, I'm not working tomorrow, perfect time to get back to you. Van Morrison is on Pandora, my wife is playing something called the J.J. Cale music channel, Lord knows what that is, but I love the songs that are playing. We just finished watching latest episode of To Tell The Truth, with Anthony Anderson and his mom Doris.
I am setting a scene to let you know I am a real person. You gave us a ton of information about yourself, but unfortunately I don't have access to it now: I'm sorry you deleted your post, it had a wealth of information. Normally we don't delete posts here, even with errors, we just correct in an add-on post. If I'd known this would happen, I would have copied and stored your words.
Since we are getting to know each other, a few things about me that most of the people here already know: I am 62. White, male and straight. That's important, it turns out, when we are discussing U.S. politics. I am not a FB or Tw or social media user, opposed to the business model. This forum is my first on-line community. Otherwise Greg Olear and Lucian Truscott on Substack, TC referred me to Lucian, and we have text groups in my family, that's it.
My parents were born in Germany and my dad in particular had a front-row seat for the entire Hitler administration, because he is from Munich. Our family lived in Germany in my teens, I knew my pro-Hitler grandmother, visited the paternal childhood home often, visited Dachau once, so I have some education with that period. All my heritage is German. I speak German, and am something of a linguist, certainly a better linguist than historian. I am the first in my immediate family born in this country, 2nd overall behind my 1st cousin Mike, my parents met in San Francisco and had me there. Public school in SF and the metro area, later graduated from a civilian school with an American high school diploma in Germany, college in southern California, engineering degree, Eagle Scout (you can take the boy out of Scouting, but you can't take Scouting out of the man), yada yada yada.
Not a historian, rely on the wealth and depth of knowledge here in this group, and trust me, it is extensive. I do not recommend underestimating that depth of knowledge, TPJ for example is a working history teacher in Boston, Linda Mitchell another history expert, TCinLA (I call him "TC") 20thC and WW2 and military and beyond expert, and the list goes on and on . . .
I am surmising you have been a Republican for a long time, perhaps are now, based on your post. My father is a diehard German-born conservative, and once he arrived in this country, lifetime Republican. Votes like clockwork, watches Fox and reads WSJ regularly. Drives me crazy my entire life, this month I have finally figured him out.
It has taken me a lifetime to discover who I am politically and socially. My wife is from southern California and moved to the SF area as soon as she could, but she could easily have been born in Berkeley, and in fact she lived next-door in Oakland for decades. Some of her closest friends are Cal grads. Her parents are actual Communists. Had to change lifestyle during Joe McCarthy years. Union organizer parents, mom with social worker degree from UCLA, believed in the ideal of communism until disillusioned by the Soviet Union and then abandoned it.
I didn't meet my wife knowing about her politics, that showed up later. I met her in a personal growth environment, what my dad would derisively call a hippie setting.
In context of a recent HCR discussion about Christianity, I found myself posting about my Christian pedigree. I didn't even know I had a Christian pedigree until a few weeks ago. Father raised Roman Catholic in Bavaria, where Josef Ratzinger, the last pope, is from. Went to Sunday School as an elementary school age kid. Even applied to Yale Divinity School in my 20s and got offered full ride scholarship, but changed my mind and took a different direction, aviation technology program. Learned mechanical stuff, machines and engines and aircraft and autos.
I have had more jobs than I can remember, my C.V. would run on for 10 to 20 pages. Transportation and psychology are the biggest themes. Very briefly aviation mechanic, 6 years limo and van driver, and for the last 23 years, trucking, so that's over 30 years in transport.
On this forum, I am testing out my knowledge of politics and society and U.S. history like never before. I'm no dummy, I was first (in my class of just 44) in H.S., but didn't take any history or politics in college, and my WW2 and Nazi Germany knowledge is self-taught.
Most of what I know about U.S. politics I learned in the past 12 months here on HCR and by reading the news. I defer to others constantly. Until now, spurned politics.
Hello Larry. I’m not in a great position right now to give your post the respect it deserves. I’m on the road working, driving truck, with my little iPhone. I think I had to scroll down 12 to 15 times just to read your entire post. For now, I will say this: I am glad that you are being honest about where you stand, and I accept your challenge of providing evidence and reasonable counter arguments to your points. But you’ll have to wait. I’ll give you just one small teaser: is there proof that removing gerrymandering sidelines Republican politicians? No, of course not. I’m not sure it’s provable. However, there is excellent evidence that a goodbye to gerrymandering means a goodbye to Republican power. In California after the 2010 census, a citizens group redistricted the entire state. Lots of public scrutiny of the entire process, tremendous amount of data and information brought to bear to decide exactly where to draw the lines. Widespread public approval of the process. In 2018, out of 53 California House districts, only 7 Republican House members. After 2020 election, I believe 12 Republican House members out of 53. Super majorities in both state legislatures. In California, the republican party as a political force is neutered, an endangered species. Still millions and millions of Republican citizens, just no political power. OK back to work. Thank you for engaging, I’ll get back to you.
“As of February 19, 2021, state lawmakers have carried over, prefiled, or introduced 253 bills with provisions that restrict voting access in 43 states, and 704 bills with provisions that expand voting access in a different set of 43 states.”
Ellie, that does not mean 43 states are Republican or Republican controlled. In my own state, a blue one with both chambers and governor being Democrat, such bills have been introduced. How they fare time will tell.
MediaBias/Fact Check ranks the Brennan Center as highly factual, but puts the following caveat in their description of the organization.
"These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes) to favor liberal causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information, but may require further investigation."
I only supported the statistic of 43 states in which voter suppression measures have been introduced, as cited by the Brennan Center. I wrote nothing about the legislatures being Republican controlled or projecting how those bills would fare.
As for MediaBias, NY Times and WaPo did not even make their cut of unbiased, but North Korea Times did. MarketWatch has a better graph locating media on a left-right axis and factual-non-factual.
For all the Pollyannas who have been posting that we have to be nicer to the other side, I post the 43 GOP controlled legislatures currently working to undermine if not destroy the democracy that allegedly underpins this constitutional democratic republic. Anyone want to try "nice talk" with those people? In the current situation, those people are The Enemy. They have delcared war on the country, whether anyone here likes it or not. Nice talk and longings for bipartisanship don't work with wolverines.
TC, you are sometimes a bit blunt, but I always respect your opinion, and mostly agree with you. Today, I TOTALLY agree with you. I don't want to see the Democratic Party turn into a more liberal version of the Republican Party, but for now, I think the big stick needs to come out. I seriously cannot wrap my brain around how we got to another phase in our history where the "leaders" in our states are trying to take us backward into a time where prejudice is the norm and if you aren't white, you shouldn't have the same rights. Back to pretending oil will last forever and alternative energy isn't needed; a time where climate change is completely ignored, and so are killer viruses. And back to a time where lies flow like honey out of the mouths of demagogues that we have allowed to take power because it is easier to believe their BS than it is to fight for equality and the rights of all people. I really really don't want to go back there again. And I don't want my grandchildren to grow up in that poison. I agree, nice talk and longing for bipartisanship just feeds their rhetoric and the hatred that comes out of it. We can and must do better, and we are seriously running out of time.
"Sometimes?" Lol.
Nice Syd you got a smile out of me 😉
I do not think they are trying to take us backwards in time. I think this country has never really moved on from the Civil War division. People hate “other.” It is present and fully thriving in this country.
Sadly, I have to agree. Here I though all naive 20-something that I was back then, that the fights we won back in the 60s were permanent.
Agreed‼️ We are all one.
“Today, I TOTALLY agree with you.”
Republican leadership has proved themselves unworthy of careful consideration or bipartisan negotiation. It’s time for Democrats to lead. Republicans can either follow or get out of the way. What we can no longer allow is their obstruction. America awaits our action; end the filibuster and get on with governing.
We also need to let our Democratic Senators and Representatives know that bipartisanship is not a high priority for us. I've written to mine (Murray, Cantwell, Larsen) at least twice now that I don't care about bipartisanship at this point; I do care about getting things done.
T: Yesterday’s Letter recounted the March to Selma. The use of a most powerful force of nonviolence. Sit-ins, disruption of economic activity, voter registration drives, etc - all set against the threats of ropes and nooses, dogs and kidnappings ...
These efforts were based on love and ‘just anger’. There was no attempt to falsely carry on "nice talk”. This movement begins within one’s heart. A moral strength lived within people who acted so courageously.
So I felt a need to clarify, for myself in this spirit of the March to Selma, that I see no need to disparage and insult another person or a group of people on this board, as I had done. I agree with you about everything you have stated about the actions of the GOP. But please do not mistake my intention to be less significant than another in our struggle.
I feel it does me, imho - no good to waste my mental energy on creating within me a life of fear, hatred and an obsession of The Enemy. Ironically, the pastor of the home church for King, Rev Raphael Warnock, is now a US Senator from Georgia! Senator Warnock has the moral force with him!
Fittingly, the man who has stayed above the political infighting, Joe Biden, now sees soaring approval ratings, as he simply makes the moral case for the survival of our democracy. Biden will be the guide for our collective march, arm-in-arm, toward a more just society. Appropriately, Biden takes the moral high ground, by starting, “I am the president for all Americans, whether you voted for me or not. I will be your president”
What a breath of clear, fresh air, after too many years of angst, hatred and dissonance! Biden’s approval proves that a kind heart gathers unknown friends and allies.
I agree that we must not become obsessed with the opposition. However, I also agree with TC's belief that the current majority in the Republican party is dangerous to this nation and its citizens - all of them, even if they haven't realized it yet. I am thrilled with President Biden, and his remaining above the fray is political genius, as well as a sign of his decency and honor. However, Biden always has a Plan B in case his staying above the fray doesn't work. I believe it translates to walking softly, but carrying a big stick.
Well, if we are going to compare Biden first to FDR, like everybody in the news is doing now, and then to Teddy Roosevelt, he’s going to have a hell of a legacy.
That’s funny, but when I was writing that Biden is probably the best president of my lifetime, I had to consider JFK and Eisenhower. I was too young to know them or what they were doing and I haven’t researched them: I’m not a historian. Trust me, six weeks ago I had no idea that I would be praising Biden like this. I am not raving about him, I don’t feel that level of adoration in me. I am just watching these words come out, in astonishment, because I really didn’t have any respect for him.
Biden's delivery lacks the charisma of Roosevelt (FDR) because of his speech struggles, and Kennedy could have been a movie star with his looks and stage presence (and beautiful, patrician Jackie), but more and more I believe that Biden has the chops. I recall Eisenhower's "I like Ike" slogan, but was too young to have any idea whether he was competent. We might be speaking too soon, considering the short time he's been in office, and with so much damage control ahead, but I believe the potential for greatness is there. He has certainly delivered amazingly these last 48 days - enough so that we're beginning to see many in the GOP scrambling to readjust their images, if that's possible. They see the threat.
You could be a journalist. I think you’re talking for upwards of 100 million people in this country alone. You’re probably talking for 80 or 90% of this forum.
Wow, now that's flattery! At my age, and with no training in journalism, I think you're being way too nice, but I am flattered. When Geoff Duncan, our Lt. Governor, boycotted the newest voter suppression legislation in Georgia, I had an aha moment. He sees landmines, and is wanting to have broader appeal, as has Romney. They're betting on rewards if they can manage to lose the Trumpstink. I'm guessing that the entire world is grateful, and a bit surprised at Biden's performance - no Sleepy Joe visible.
You never heard me say be nicer to the other side, that's for damned sure.
I’ve posted here several times in the past that we need to listen to the other side, we need to understand them, and we need to not underestimate them. I am with you, Daria - I have never said be nice to them. Know thine enemy. If you don’t know / understand them you can’t fight or defend against them.
Daria, you surprise me.
And delight me.
Ha! Thanks, Roland!. Why do I surprise you?
I have a good deal of respect for your comments and can identify with much of your personal journey. Most of my family was and is liberal, though my maternal grandparents were as conservative and bigoted as the day is long. Their very narrow opinions made for a lot of friction in my youth including me letting them know how objectionable they were socially and morally. I'm afraid I lacked tact and grace more than I do now and by the time I was 20 had damaged my relationship with them beyond repair. When my grandfather died in 1974 we were on very bitter terms. My relationship with my grandmother improved a great deal but still, by the time she died in the early aughts, there were huge gaps in our relationship because of our personal beliefs. Now, I am constantly at loggerheads with my in-laws. They are wealthy, well educated and viciously Republican. If there has been a silver lining in Covid it's been our inability, (and unwillingness), to travel freely thus reducing my face to face exposure to their ever growing hate. They are in their 80s and 90s and will never change their points of view. All this despite the fact they have a Black granddaughter. They are unwilling to acknowledge how potentially damaging their beliefs are to her future as an American. She is eight. There will come a time, though, if they live long enough, where their bigotry and racism will become more apparent and impactful to her personally. I hope it never goes that far.
“Why do I surprise you?” Thank you for your transparency about yourself. That honesty answers the question. I didn’t have really good words for how to describe your post: sharp, biting, incisive. You just have a wickedly good insight into the whole Republican-Party-Kissing- Trump’s-Ass thing that just happened. Super nice insight.
Your tale about your in-laws: my dad is Republican conservative wealthy and downright stupid. I’m trying to decide what is harder, well-educated bigoted conservative in-laws or Dummkopf conservative bigoted father. The one constant is that they all seem to be rockheads. A jackhammer wouldn’t even do the trick of cracking them.
Ah, well, thanks. I appreciate that. I honestly believe wealthy, well educated bigots inflict a lot more harm in both the short and long run. They have the money to influence and frequently the ability to craft appealing rhetoric that sounds both logical and socially appropriate. They can justify murder if they have a mind to.
A lot of factors have brought me to where I am today. A lot about my childhood and teenage years did not strike me as unusual at the time. The realization that most people didn't have a 5 day a week maid or places to spend the summer just didn't hit home while I was "living in it". I look back on what was normal for my family at and am stunned by how fortunate we were, how much we took for granted. How many assumptions I made. The first huge eye opener was in the summer between my Junior and Senior years. I participated in a summer theater program at Montgomery Blair High School in Silver Spring, MD. I became friends with a Black girl from DC during that summer. One day, she didn't come back to the theater from the restroom. I went to find her because we were reading scenes and we're up next. I found her in the bathroom beaten up, with a wet head, full of bubble gum. Her head had been dunked in the toilet. Several of Montgomery County's finest white girls were responsible. As horrified and angry as I was I cannot begin to understand the pain that young woman felt. I cannot imagine living with that experience embedded in my brain for the rest of my life. Of course, she never came back. And, of course, it didn't make the Post or the Star, because events like that were kept quiet and brushed under the rug. I'd love to tell you that that story is a figment of my imagination, but it's not. I will tell you that it was a huge epiphany for me. Had I seen racism before that day? Yes. Had I ever encountered that level of violence on a personal level before that incident? No. That one day forced me to understand racism viscerally, not just intellectually. It forced me to reevaluate everyone and everything around me. And speak up.
It's good to share this harrowing story, Daria. Hopefully she went past the trauma to become a fierce activist for civil rights.
Daria, I had a little time to read comments this evening. Your story, stopped me from going on. Seeing the attack on your friend appears to be embedded in you. I wasn't a witness as you were, but the ugliness, disrespect and condescension that I saw as a child impressed me to know more. My antipathy to racism seems to be brain wired. Thank you, Daria, for sharing your experience.
Daria this is just brilliant. I have to include lynching and vicious violence in my screeds about the Republican Party being the bastion of the old Confederacy. I have to mention summary killings of Native Americans, by U.S. Cavalry, by settlers, by Spaniards and Texans and Californians and . . . . . . . Whites-first, racism, is not just genteel policy arguments on HCR and in the halls of Congress and state legislatures. Racism is DANGEROUS. Racism is GENOCIDAL. Racism, sexism, gay-ism, kills people. These are not polite conversation. When TC talks about “they pull out a knife, you pull out a gun,” these are not empty metaphors.
TC, easily the best post of the day and possibly your best work here on HCR. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
The last time I saw my grandmother in 1987 she was in her 80s and in a nursing home in Mississippi. I didn’t tell her that I had married a “nigra” woman & don’t know if anyone else in the family let her in on this ‘secret.’ I was her first grandson and sort of favorite. What would be the point? She and her generation were leaving.
I get that.
Hey, I don’t have a problem with anyone nice-talking the enemy. And then while someone is nice-talking them, hit them with the
effing sledgehammer. Pass SB1, eliminate gerrymandering and the other bogus crap, and relegate those people to permanent minority status. All the while people can sweet talk them. Who cares about talk.
Roland, Lynn, there is a danger in all this for the country's defenders: you're dealing with deluders and the deluded. And... this remark of Karl Popper's has become like a jack-in-the-box in my mind:
"To attack a man for talking nonsense is like finding your mortal enemy drowning in a swamp and jumping in after him with a knife."
Someone mentioned the need for thigh boots when wading into this swamp.
Lynell Abbott3 min ago
Hey, Peter. Not sure if you are talking to me here (some people call me Lynn) but just wanted to clarify that my comment went more to correcting the source of the line TC used re pulling a gun over a knife. It wasn't from the movie Raiders, but the movie The Untouchables.
This got me to thinking, since TC is pretty accurate in his comments. So I did a search and came up with this from SNOPES:
"As it turned out, the comment was indeed made by then-Senator Obama at a fundraising event in the City of Brotherly Love, and it was not ignored by mainstream media outlets at the time. The New York Times, reported on 14 June 2008 that:
"Senator Barack Obama was fund-raising in Philadelphia. But he was talking about 'the Chicago way.'
"Channeling the mob drama, 'The Untouchables,' Mr. Obama said in reference to the general election rumble with the Republicans: 'If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun.'”
Just FYI: Being a fan of living in a civilized society, I am not invested in the use of either a knife or a gun to make things "right." But I do enjoy the fantasy of a good movie where all kinds of laws are broken in the pursuit of justice. Just sayin'.
"Mr Ness, I do not approve of your methods!"
"Well, you're not from Chicago."
No, Lynell, I seem to have had an attack of the gremlins and don't know where "Lynn" came from. I was responding to Roland and (I guess) Diane Love.
I'd noticed the talk of guns and knives, but the quote from Karl Popper was nothing to do with all that. Just about the difficulties and dangers of dealing with knaves, suckers and their swamp, without getting drawn into it.
I'll admit to making frequent use of other men's sayings, but surely there's no harm in that when they express my thoughts better than I could express them myself. My hackles are raised by secondhand thinking -- when people adopt readymade prejudices. And I don't care whose prejudices we're talking about. I just want to ask people, what do YOU think, what do YOU feel?
That is what I appreciate when reading this thread.
If I said yesterday that, for me, David Carroll was welcome to ask his questions and put his views, I still feel the same way. What I'm not interested in is what his granddad or his party told him he was supposed to think. But the same goes for everyone, from right, from left, from center.
There's no interest in anyone, let alone politicians, who just says the right thing. We need to be one with our word.
(Having said which, I hope I can live up to it!)
Great perspective you have, Peter. I've read your comments. My opinion is you do "live up to it"!
How refreshing to be part of an online community where people quote Karl Popper. Alas, that thoughtful conservative would be a liberal in America's conservative party, or more likely, unwelcome altogether. Alas!
Beware Logical Positivism bearing gifts to world hunger. It is cold hearted.
I don't endorse Popper's views; it's just gratifying that LFAAers operate on an intellectual level high enough to encompass him.
“They pull a knife, you pull a gun. They send one of yours to the hospital, you send one of theirs to the morgue."
Sean Connery, The Untouchables. Always loved that line!
Sean Connery: the cop who teaches Eliot Ness (Kevin Costner) about "The Chicago way."
I always love that line too. TC you’re pulling that line out at exactly the right time. I could be wrong, but it looks like Biden is sweet talking them to their face and stabbing them in the back. Sweetly. Just as you suggest.
Biden has the Republicans’ backs too. They just can’t recognize it. When we remove the knife they might see the reality that they have become better off as a result of his tough love.
We all need to remember that there are Republican politicians, then Republican citizens. Of course, the third subset is Trumpublicans - hopefully an endangered species.
David100%
David! Nicely said! 🏆🏆
His years in politics are serving him well - at least obstruct them or step over them.
Thank you Nancy 🙏
His years in politics are serving all of us magnificently. I did not think I would catch myself saying this, Joe Biden was not my first choice, but he might be the best president I have seen in my lifetime. He is doing everything I would’ve wanted my first choice to do, and more. He is an attack dog. TC, are you seeing what I’m seeing with this Biden character? Does he meet up to your Sean Connery and Harrison Ford standards?
I loved that scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark when Indiana Jones pulls out his gun.
They actually just came up with that on the fly doing the scene. originally, Indy was supposed to use his bullwhip, but Harrison Ford said that all the Han Solo fans who were going to come see the movie weren't going to buy him doing that after he killed Greedo in the good Star Wars movie.
I heard a different story, that he was sick that day and just trying to get through the day. He came up with the idea on the fly to end the scene quickly. I met my first actor ever a month ago, I’ll have to ask her.
I've heard that too.
I now suspect he came up with the story I heard to make it sound more "actorly"
The story I heard is from the era when Indiana Jones was produced, so perhaps you are right. Who knows. I’m not in that industry.
Hey TC, I asked you some questions elsewhere in this great discussion you started. I called Joe Biden an attack dog, among other things, (really? did I say that?) and I actually said that I thought, against my earlier opinion, that he might actually be living up to your Sean Connery and Harrison Ford standard. I was wondering what your take is on that. Like I said elsewhere here, Joe Biden was not my first choice, and I did not think I was going to like him. But now you are bringing the subject up. What’s your opinion?
My first reaction was “but that’s what TFG (the former guy) would and did do.” I’ve got to toughen up and get more ballsy, admittedly an anatomical stretch for me, as does the rest of the Democratic Party.
A Latino professor here in Miami once told his class that having "cojones" applied to either gender.
Thank you Rob! Thank you MaryB! Thank you TC for this great discussion!
Yep and maybe not wait for them to make the first move.
The state legislatures are rolling fast:
"The GOP-led Georgia Senate just voted 29-20 to PASS #SB241, one of the worst voter suppression bills in the country. It would end no-excuse mail voting, increase voter prosecution, and add racist ID requirements. The GOP continues their relentless attack on voting rights."
https://twitter.com/fairfightaction/status/1369052609529716736?s=20
I suspect that the ACLU and many other groups have all the paperwork pre-set for the law suits to start rolling in. It is going to be important to help finance the legal defense funds that are going to be litigating against these New Jim Crow laws.
mark elias!!!
What a setback, Ellie. I pray Stacey et al. will be able to overcome.
Meanwhile, here in Virginia things are looking up:
https://www.npr.org/2021/02/26/971366621/virginia-is-poised-to-approve-its-own-voting-rights-act
https://www.wric.com/news/virginia-voting-rights-act-passes-as-supreme-court-case-threatens-federal-protections/
After reading a story in The Hill (I wait for Letters until the coffee is brewed) on the "surprise retirement" of a half dozen Republican senators, I had the idle thought as I poured the magic bean fluid of "We are going to have to Abrams the s*%t out of those states".
Quote from Matt Damon in "The Martian" where he says he has to "science the s*%t out of his surroundings to insure his survival.
Agree as to making Abrams a verb!
Absolutely. Unlike "Borking," "to Abrams" has a positive meaning.
Ally, this comment makes my day! I’m all about science-ing the s*%t out of stuff, but had never thought of my modus operandi in those terms. And Abrams-ing the s*%t out of several states is my new goal. Let’s go!!
😂👍🏼🙏🏼
And Florida is going in the other direction. https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/opinion/editorials/2021/03/02/editorial-desantis-mistakes-election-integrity-voter-suppression/6883048002/
It is with dismay that I read about what is going on in Florida and the other states. I hope donations to FairFight and the Democrats will hep.
The bright side: voter suppression has never been this obvious. Every news article I read calls it what it is, even if it doesn’t always mention the racist underpinning.
This is also creating problems within GA's GOP, as they realise this voter suppression can also hurt THEM. Abrams and GA Democrats are on it, so I don't think it will proceed without a fight. Even Raffensperger and Gov. Kemp oppose restricting mail-in voting. After all, it WAS put forward several years ago by the GA GOP. I don't expect things to necessarily sail through without resistance. It'd be curious to see how H.R. 1, currently before Congress, might affect some of these blatantly discriminatory voting restrictions.
https://georgiarecorder.com/2021/03/09/no-excuse-voting-ban-creates-gop-schism-as-georgia-senate-presses-on/
In case you want to help Abrams:
https://fairfight.com/
Ah yes. Geoff Duncan is boycotting. I smell a run for higher office coming. Kemp has to be careful to not alienate moderate Republicans, suburban women, and the moderate Democrats, since Trumpers want to burn him at the stake.
These are getting beyond ridiculous: GOP proposal in Arizona would reject ballots that are postmarked after the Thursday before an election, even if the ballot arrives at the election office before the close of the polls https://trackbill.com/bill/arizona-senate-bill-1593-early-voting-time-limits-envelope/2009157/
As Bruce Sellers wrote, “This is also creating problems within GA's GOP, as they realise this voter suppression can also hurt THEM.”
Remember: it is by shining the light into the dark corners that you root out the cockroaches and the corruption. Personally I think we have the Social Lepers party on the run. Between the Trumpster versus principled Republican fights, which includes and likely inspired the half dozen recent Senatorial retirements, and the spotlight on racist voter suppression legislation, the Good Side is winning. But I’m with TC and the rest of you: pedal to the metal. Keep the accelerator floored. Keep the aircraft throttle firewalled. GO TEAM‼️🎉❤️
And now Iowa:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/08/politics/kim-reynolds-voting-iowa/index.html
Not sure “nice talk” will be necessary. Their act is slowly becoming irrelevant. Georgia’s potential law is so nakedly racist that it will achieve at best, a Pyrrhic victory.
The struggle will admittedly be long and hard. But the Neanderthals are clearly on the run.
I often wonder, “What is the barrier to entry” to becoming a State (or Federal) legislature. Any state that would pass, or attempt to pass, a law making it illegal to feed, provide water, or in any way give material comfort to people waiting waiting in line to vote, would seem to have searched for the dumbest of the dumb to prop up in a legislative capacity. In the above case the fact that this is the product of panicked, vicious minds is obvious. But it’s not even self-serving. It is simply the capstone on a law that will provide vigorous, determined and highly motivated resistance.
The cracks are already appearing in this minority party. Mitt Romney and others are beginning to embrace the possibility of social programs, etc. So, some of the opposition are realizing that they have to change their game plan. Even though Georgia Republicans are abandoning any attempt to portray themselves as pro-citizen, the Lt. Governor is boycotting this slew of repressive legislation. My guess is that he realizes that there will be tremendous pushback, and he has higher political aspirations that will be in danger That's good, but we need to continue to resist, and relax only a bit when it is clear that the Republicans have abandoned their forays into fascism and have a common goal of representing all citizens, not the interests of big business. As you so aptly stated Eric,, "the struggle will admittedly be long and hard."
Nancy- Your words are true, holding "the enemies of Democracy accountable without apology or being "pollyanna" about this dire attack on Democracy. I wish to emmulate your razor sharp words that surgically expose the cancer of autocracy. Even though you are gracious, no one should mistake you for being Pollyanna.
Jay, thank you so much for the compliments. Yes, I talk way too much, and spend some time "counseling" friends who are much nicer than I when they fret about "how could they do that" and man's inhumanity to man. I'm something of a mild cynic, and while I hope for the best in people and institutions, I see potential pitfalls. True - no Pollyanna here.😉
I don't think they understand nice talk, or even truths that are self evident!
You got that right
I have long believed in the adage (I think it might be a Chinese saying - not sure): one cannot reason with mad dogs. Generally, where I grew up, a "mad dog" was handled with a burst of icy water. What I long for is to ice the GOP. Maybe if these obstructionist ancients have to stand and orate for hours on end a few of them will drop. One can hope.
Being criminalized certainly qualifies as an icy blast of cold. Half a dozen Republican senators retiring, that’s another blow to their collective egos. Ellen, have you seen any of the video of whiners who were at the January 6 Riot and then were placed on the No Fly list, or Richard Barnett’s temper tantrum in court? That’s just the beginning. The biggest wake-up call for them will probably be Donald Trump going to jail. Before that happens, all 800 January 6 rioters will already be arrested. All of this pushback from the justice system and from their corporate funders is a big wake-up call for these smug buffoons.
TC, get your facts straight. First, there are 49 legislatures that can be "controlled" as you put it. Nebraska is a unicameral legislature who's members are voted in nonpartisan.
As of February 1, 2021, 30 legislatures are totally controlled by Republicans with 23 States where the legislature and governorship is Republican. 18 legislatures are controlled by Democrats with 15 States having both the legislature and governor being Democrat. So where did the 43 come from?
When HCR talked about the one-party South from 1878 to the 1960s, she wasn't referring to "Dixiecans" but "Dixiecrats." The Democratic Party has a longer history of disenfranchisement of voting and other rights than the Republicans.
https://www.ncsl.org/research/about-state-legislatures/partisan-composition.aspx#
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_the_Southern_United_States#1948:_Dixiecrat_revolt
"The Democratic Party has a longer history of disenfranchisement of voting and other rights"
So what?? That was then, this is now. It's tedious to listen to folks who can't, or won't, distinguish between the Dems of the 1850s or Jim Crow era, and the contemporary Party. It is literally ignorant, i.e. ignor-ant, a deliberate choice to remain uninformed by disregarding facts. After the VRA in 1965, southern Dem vote suppressors migrated to the GOP where they found a hearty welcome. They've spent 50 years perfecting the suppression strategy and STILL won't cease and desist.
Another crucial difference today is that the GQP seeks, not to control or limit democracy, but to destroy it. The mob of filthy, seditious insurrectionists who stormed the Capitol was overwhelmingly Repuglycan; they will wear that badge of dishonor for eternity. It's not necessary to reprise their dismal litany of illegal and unconstitutional actions under Der Pu$$enGropenFuhrer, but anyone who doesn't see the pattern is ignor-ant. Dems have never had anything like the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy Hillary identified many years ago. Now, excuse me, I'm off to burn the Confederate flag in public.
E Foner, The Story of American Freedom
A Keyssar, The Right to Vote
L Litwack, Trouble in Mind
D White, To Heavy a Load
I think you missed my point about the problem of one party domination. HCR referred to the time period, not I. And that period was lead by Democrats. I had written more, but chose to delete it.
As for the so what of history, perhaps Foner's 2017 interview in the Nation can shed some light.
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/trump-is-just-tearing-off-the-mask-an-interview-with-eric-foner/
I don't deal in abstractions. National one-party rule is an abstraction, far less important than the actual, concrete results of GQP voter suppression and gerrymandering -- the product of one-party domination of red states. Dr Foner is a friendly acquaintance whose work is very familiar to me. Anyone can rummage through his oeuvre to find something that might support their views, especially from an interview which carries less weight than written publications. But his entire career shows that the large majority of his thought runs counter to yours.
I wrote a long reply, posted it, and then deleted it.
First, as I see it, you are dealing in abstractions now. You, and others, have yet to prove that the GOP gerrymanders and that their success in "red" states is a result of such a charge. More importantly, you and others make it sound that Dems have never engaged in such activity. More importantly, as this inane threat started, it's based on an opinion that will be spread as truth. I only pointed out the facts and reassert what HCR stated, one party domination is wrong. We saw it with the Southern Democrats in the South for nearly 100 years. Your better argument would have been, right, but we've learned our lessons and are trying to change.
Second, I've read Dr. Foner's work. Agree with some, not sure I accept other points of view. But, I do agree that we need a usable history to make progress at working towards the goals of our Constitution. Maybe we should adopt the high school requirements of the Germans. Make our students visit slave housings on a plantation or German/Italian/Japanese internment camps (built during the Democratic Presidencies of Wilson and Roosevelt) or walk the streets of disadvantaged neighborhoods/slums/jails/battlefields where Native Americans died, etc. Maybe then they'll realize what our history is really like and make an effort to do better.
Third, and final point, I believe we need to start looking for common ground versus the great divide we now endure. It's hard work, but it needs to be done. And, I believe President Biden's call to end this Uncivil War, one that both parties share in the blame, must be started. That doesn't mean rolling over and playing dead. But, it does mean listening to what others say. Dems hold the national power now. If they want to continue to and disrupt the trend of mid-term elections, the party needs to find a common ground to bring Republicans into their camp. Calling them the GQP isn't it.
Hi Larry.
Damn, I wish I had your post from yesterday.
Ok, on the gerrymandering question, I already mentioned California's history, that's all I know. End of story. The other experts here will have to engage you, and by now, they are reading the current HCR discussion. This page is old news.
I am of the opinion that the Southern Democrat Party bears little or no relation to the modern Democratic Party, but here again, Dr. Richardson or TPJ or Stuart or someone else will have to step in. In Lincoln's election, it was more like Europe is today, a multi-party system instead of a 2-party system, with 4 viable parties competing for representation in the WH. Somehow Lincoln won the election in what I have seen called in California a "jungle" election, which is a free-for-all, with everyone on the same ballot and not separate ballots like a primary election. The Southern Democrats became the party of the KKK, as disaffected Southerners, because it was the party of Southerners to begin with. Then somehow the Southern Democrats became merged with the Democrats, or changed names, I don't know, then LBJ and the Voting Rights Act drove them to the Republican Party.
I've never read Dr. Foner. That's between you and TPJ.
Of course I am in complete agreement with your statement about the high school requirements of the Germans. As far as I'm concerned, getting American high school students out of the classroom and into the field would give them education and knowledge they sorely lack.
Your final point about common ground: of course I agree completely, why else are you and I here having this conversation. I have had my father all my life, and I have engaged (albeit to a limited degree) in his social circle for decades, so I am accustomed to engagement and finding common ground. He and I love each other, even though we have so little in common, as it turns out, politically and socially. But nevertheless common ground is there, kindness, civility, generosity, mutual respect, there is plenty to recommend my father. People rave about him to me all the time.
I have received a bit of blowback, nothing serious but noticeable, here on HCR and elsewhere for taking what are apparently controversial positions. To your point: I think Adam Kinzinger, Ben Sasse, Mitt Romney voting for impeachment the 1st time, and other Republicans I could name, make a lot of sense, and they get my respect. Not my approval necessarily, not my undying love, but my respect. Even McConnell, whose methods I despise, has come out against the criminal Trump.
I hope you are ok with me disparaging 45, because this guy is so dirty in so many ways that it's impossible to keep track. He will need a presidential library just to contain all the evidence. Greg Olear on Substack has done numerous deep dive investigations, and nothing that comes out is ever pretty. Often, when the context is pertinent, I write his name as Tя☭mp because of his partnership with Putin. Remember them in Helsinki? Finland is kinda, sorta, in the Russian sphere of influence. From the Russian point of view, Finland is neutral ground, a fitting place for that meeting. Did we ever think we'd see a president who is friends with the leader of Russia? There is also sex crimes, there is NYC mob history (real estate related), there is financial corruption, each of these categories will require an entire wing in his presidential library.
Dr. Heather Cox Richardson tends to limit herself to what she knows, she has made that very clear, which means U.S. history. Russia is not her area of knowledge or expertise, so she stays on firm ground. However, I do not run this web site, I am not a respected historian with a reputation to uphold, I am merely a student, so I can speak as I please. These named Republicans care about the democracy enough, and are unswayed by the current anti-democratic tide enough, to get my tacit approval. My father voted for Mitt Romney back when he was running against Obama. I would have a conversation with Larry Hogan or Ben Sasse in a heartbeat. They might not get my vote if I were in their district, but hey, they would probably get my dad's vote.
Personally, I don't find it offensive to call the GOP the "GQP." However, I want to set the table with you, and that conversation is quite a bit more controversial than what we have been discussing, so I'll table it for now. I will say this: I do not identify as a Democrat. I may vote Democrat, but that's it, I do not affiliate with parties, although I could call myself a Green, which, curiously and ironically, appeared in Bavaria, the home of my heritage. If the Democratic Party started attracting racists and anti-Semites to its cause, I would disown them in a heartbeat. The man with the shirt that says "Camp Auschwitz" on the front and "Staff" on the back is not my friend. My wife saw that in real time, on TV, on January 6. She is half Jewish, her maternal relatives were wiped out of their town in what is now Belarus by the Germans. That's just an aside, but it's pertinent because it refreshes my other point, that these genteel words in print on HCR's web page may seem divorced from the real world, but they are not. Anti-Semitism wasted millions of lives. I have relatives who fought and died on what Nazi Germany called "the Eastern front," when Russians and eastern Europeans were considered subhumans. So blood is at stake here. Lives at are stake.
Speaking for myself, a party that coddles and takes in money and support from that demographic is not going to make me smile or make me just walk away.
In closing, Larry, I just want to say I am not conflict averse. I have defused tensions here. Not always successfully, but that seems to be my role, much more than being a source of history knowledge. So you can bring up anything with me that you like, anything. I can handle it. If I don't know enough, if my resources are insufficient, I will say so. I am that guy who runs counter to the stereotype: I use maps. I get directions. I read the instructions. I rely on resources and information, and I'm not shy about it. But I also don't accept information blindly, I am acutely aware of the reliability of a source, and even then, you have to remain cautious. For example, I am very skeptical of giving a political news TV show the name "Reliable Sources." Come on. If you just believe what people tell you, you deserve the consequences of being a misguided fool. That's how the Russians view DT, by the way, "a useful fool," a tool.
I stand on firm ground in certain areas, and when I do, you will have to use convincing arguments to get me to agree.
Good talking to you.
Hope your experience here in Dr. Richardson's subscriber community goes more smoothly from now on.
Enjoy the rest of your day and week. My best to you and your family.
Roland
Hello again Larry! I'm at home, on my laptop, I can actually follow the discussion much more easily because of the much larger screen. It's snowing where I live in rural mountainous California, I'm not working tomorrow, perfect time to get back to you. Van Morrison is on Pandora, my wife is playing something called the J.J. Cale music channel, Lord knows what that is, but I love the songs that are playing. We just finished watching latest episode of To Tell The Truth, with Anthony Anderson and his mom Doris.
I am setting a scene to let you know I am a real person. You gave us a ton of information about yourself, but unfortunately I don't have access to it now: I'm sorry you deleted your post, it had a wealth of information. Normally we don't delete posts here, even with errors, we just correct in an add-on post. If I'd known this would happen, I would have copied and stored your words.
Since we are getting to know each other, a few things about me that most of the people here already know: I am 62. White, male and straight. That's important, it turns out, when we are discussing U.S. politics. I am not a FB or Tw or social media user, opposed to the business model. This forum is my first on-line community. Otherwise Greg Olear and Lucian Truscott on Substack, TC referred me to Lucian, and we have text groups in my family, that's it.
My parents were born in Germany and my dad in particular had a front-row seat for the entire Hitler administration, because he is from Munich. Our family lived in Germany in my teens, I knew my pro-Hitler grandmother, visited the paternal childhood home often, visited Dachau once, so I have some education with that period. All my heritage is German. I speak German, and am something of a linguist, certainly a better linguist than historian. I am the first in my immediate family born in this country, 2nd overall behind my 1st cousin Mike, my parents met in San Francisco and had me there. Public school in SF and the metro area, later graduated from a civilian school with an American high school diploma in Germany, college in southern California, engineering degree, Eagle Scout (you can take the boy out of Scouting, but you can't take Scouting out of the man), yada yada yada.
Not a historian, rely on the wealth and depth of knowledge here in this group, and trust me, it is extensive. I do not recommend underestimating that depth of knowledge, TPJ for example is a working history teacher in Boston, Linda Mitchell another history expert, TCinLA (I call him "TC") 20thC and WW2 and military and beyond expert, and the list goes on and on . . .
I am surmising you have been a Republican for a long time, perhaps are now, based on your post. My father is a diehard German-born conservative, and once he arrived in this country, lifetime Republican. Votes like clockwork, watches Fox and reads WSJ regularly. Drives me crazy my entire life, this month I have finally figured him out.
It has taken me a lifetime to discover who I am politically and socially. My wife is from southern California and moved to the SF area as soon as she could, but she could easily have been born in Berkeley, and in fact she lived next-door in Oakland for decades. Some of her closest friends are Cal grads. Her parents are actual Communists. Had to change lifestyle during Joe McCarthy years. Union organizer parents, mom with social worker degree from UCLA, believed in the ideal of communism until disillusioned by the Soviet Union and then abandoned it.
I didn't meet my wife knowing about her politics, that showed up later. I met her in a personal growth environment, what my dad would derisively call a hippie setting.
In context of a recent HCR discussion about Christianity, I found myself posting about my Christian pedigree. I didn't even know I had a Christian pedigree until a few weeks ago. Father raised Roman Catholic in Bavaria, where Josef Ratzinger, the last pope, is from. Went to Sunday School as an elementary school age kid. Even applied to Yale Divinity School in my 20s and got offered full ride scholarship, but changed my mind and took a different direction, aviation technology program. Learned mechanical stuff, machines and engines and aircraft and autos.
I have had more jobs than I can remember, my C.V. would run on for 10 to 20 pages. Transportation and psychology are the biggest themes. Very briefly aviation mechanic, 6 years limo and van driver, and for the last 23 years, trucking, so that's over 30 years in transport.
On this forum, I am testing out my knowledge of politics and society and U.S. history like never before. I'm no dummy, I was first (in my class of just 44) in H.S., but didn't take any history or politics in college, and my WW2 and Nazi Germany knowledge is self-taught.
Most of what I know about U.S. politics I learned in the past 12 months here on HCR and by reading the news. I defer to others constantly. Until now, spurned politics.
Ok, now to your post.
Roland
Oh my. Hey TC, check this out, TPJ’s fuse got lit on your watch.
I’m giving TC the credit, semi-facetiously. Nobody has to agree with that.
Tom, love your passion. 🙏❤️😊❤️
Nice work holding your ground Larry Keeton. Keep up the good work.
Thanks Roland.
Hello Larry. I’m not in a great position right now to give your post the respect it deserves. I’m on the road working, driving truck, with my little iPhone. I think I had to scroll down 12 to 15 times just to read your entire post. For now, I will say this: I am glad that you are being honest about where you stand, and I accept your challenge of providing evidence and reasonable counter arguments to your points. But you’ll have to wait. I’ll give you just one small teaser: is there proof that removing gerrymandering sidelines Republican politicians? No, of course not. I’m not sure it’s provable. However, there is excellent evidence that a goodbye to gerrymandering means a goodbye to Republican power. In California after the 2010 census, a citizens group redistricted the entire state. Lots of public scrutiny of the entire process, tremendous amount of data and information brought to bear to decide exactly where to draw the lines. Widespread public approval of the process. In 2018, out of 53 California House districts, only 7 Republican House members. After 2020 election, I believe 12 Republican House members out of 53. Super majorities in both state legislatures. In California, the republican party as a political force is neutered, an endangered species. Still millions and millions of Republican citizens, just no political power. OK back to work. Thank you for engaging, I’ll get back to you.
“As of February 19, 2021, state lawmakers have carried over, prefiled, or introduced 253 bills with provisions that restrict voting access in 43 states, and 704 bills with provisions that expand voting access in a different set of 43 states.”
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/state-voting-bills-tracker-2021
ALEC must be busy.
Ellie, that does not mean 43 states are Republican or Republican controlled. In my own state, a blue one with both chambers and governor being Democrat, such bills have been introduced. How they fare time will tell.
MediaBias/Fact Check ranks the Brennan Center as highly factual, but puts the following caveat in their description of the organization.
"These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes) to favor liberal causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information, but may require further investigation."
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/brennan-center-for-justice/
I only supported the statistic of 43 states in which voter suppression measures have been introduced, as cited by the Brennan Center. I wrote nothing about the legislatures being Republican controlled or projecting how those bills would fare.
As for MediaBias, NY Times and WaPo did not even make their cut of unbiased, but North Korea Times did. MarketWatch has a better graph locating media on a left-right axis and factual-non-factual.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-biased-is-your-news-source-you-probably-wont-agree-with-this-chart-2018-02-28
TC, your discussion is easily the best of the day and is possibly your best work here on HCR. 🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
All my favorite people are showing up here.
You are welcome. :-)