The testimonies today were heartbreaking. Two teenage girls, a nine year old girl, a female firefighter who wanted to help medically but they refused to let her. A man who kept calling for Chauvin to lift his knee off George Floyd’s neck, realized he had just witnessed a murder and called 911. They all watched him die, and they are all…
The testimonies today were heartbreaking. Two teenage girls, a nine year old girl, a female firefighter who wanted to help medically but they refused to let her. A man who kept calling for Chauvin to lift his knee off George Floyd’s neck, realized he had just witnessed a murder and called 911. They all watched him die, and they are all haunted by his preventable death. And tonight, I am haunted by their testimony. They all will live with the trauma of what they witnessed for the rest of their lives. - one a nine year old girl, two 17 year old girls, one of which had the courage and the wisdom to capture that video on the other’s phone. This nightmare will follow them forever. The firefighter who knew this man was dying and couldn’t persuade the officers to let her check for a pulse, noting that the placement and pressure of Derek Chauvin’s knee on George Floyd’s neck would have caused him intense pain. This country will live with the trauma of what happened for decades to come.
I find the defense's argument flawed that George Floyd had comorbidities that caused his death. If I were on the jury, I would want to know whether George Floyd would have died that day of those comorbidities but for the intervention of a knee on his neck while on his stomach, handcuffed, with the weight of 2 "grown men" on his back (not counting Chauvin).
I am a (retired) police use of force instructor. I have taught the LVNR (lateral vascular neck restraint, aka carotid restraint, both of which are mechanically different from a choke hold, a martial arts submission hold) and I have been taught (because I was too close to retirement to have the department train me to be an instructor) taser application. On our force matrix/guide/continuum, consideration of a persons age, visible medical conditions, or disability was ALWAYS a concern and mentioned in all of our training. We also taught that force is applied until compliance is gained, then the person is restrained, the force application stops, and medical care is given if necessary. Concerns regarding positional asphyxia were also emphasized, and restrained subjects were never to be placed either prone or supine for any length of time.
I cannot fathom the casual indifference displayed by Chauvin.
Like I mentioned yesterday, a small nurse and I managed to take down crazy large men in a psych hospital with no weapons and without killing them. If they were too large a code was called and every assistant rushed to the unit to help. There were 4 pigs on scene and yet they killed a man WHO WAS IN HANDCUFFS. The other 3 should be charged with felony murder just like with any gang killing.
Chauvin’s posture looked indifferent, but, the look on his face was pure arrogance. I read that he was not only the officer in charge, but, also training new officers. So they all obeyed his command to hold Mr Floyd down and keep witnesses away. He was setting an example. God help us all.
Thank you for your comments. Similar opinion voiced by a guest on CNN, a former police commissioner from PA....” force is applied until compliance is gained, then the person is restrained, the force application stops, and medical care is given if necessary. Concerns regarding positional asphyxia were also emphasized, and restrained subjects were never to be placed either prone or supine for any length of time.” He was already cuffed, he was not resisting; the part where Chauvin exhorted him to “get up, get in the car” over and over was sickening, as his knee was still in place. He didn’t even move when the ambulance arrived...and I thought those guys were a little too casual also.
Ally The casual indifference you mention was apparently personal. There are officers whose previous histories with their perps leads to such personal indifference. I am not a prosecutor but I feel there is a case for first degree murder here. I also believe we will be lucky if Chauvin goes to jail for any length of time
Agreed. All the techniques and technicalities mean nothing when police act subjectively, as Chauvin did with Mr Floyd because they had a prior history. Then there's pulling Mr Floyd out of the car. Someone handcuffed and subdued in a police car is complying, period. There is no need for officers to instigate violent contact.
Hello TPJ, it’s me. I am responding to an offer you made back in early February when you invited me to suggest books to read, index and footnotes only. If you see this post, here’s my suggestion: Reincarnation: The Phoenix Fire Mystery, Sylvia Cranston, ed.
Ally, I couldn't say that Chauvin was 'indifferent' about what he was doing. He looked quite purposeful is his behavior. Does he care that he killed George Floyd? I don't know how he feels about the attention. Chauvin's feelings, that's hard to know.
Yes! What evil is that?! I guess he is a sociopath.... and will the defense try to pull out the old ‘mental issues’ and ‘abused as a child?!’ He and those people make me so sick! And they are police officers?!
I differ in what I saw. It seemed to me that he had "zoned out". It was as if he lost a sense of where he was or what he was doing. Especially in light of onlookers and other professionals pleading with him to stop what he was doing.
He did not care. He showed depraved indifference to the risk of the loss of life. He had a crowd of cops around him. They could have put Mr. Floyd in the police car at any time. His pose, the smirk on his face, he looked as though he was enjoying the spectacle and the sense of his own power.
That’s a very empathetic perspective. And it very well may be that when the ‘switch’ is flipped inside a psychopath’s brain... like they go to ‘dial tone’, it may be a subtle defense mechanism to separate them from their actions?!
His eyes locked with both the eyes of the young woman who was videoing him and with the lens on her camera. He was fully aware of what he was doing and of the fact that he was both observed and being recorded. His eyes were focussed and he smirked as he looked into the camera. That is about as far from being "zoned out" as you can get. I am of the opinion that not only was he fully aware of what he was doing, he also assumed that the fact he had witnesses made no difference. He assumed he would simply get away with it- because up to now, cops always had.
Annie, my memory of Chauvin's face is very vivid. He was starring down the camera with a cruel, fixed, determined, territorial defiance. He was a human animal on his prey daring anyone to interfere. What a memory. I can feel the experience of seeing him as I describe it here.
I don't buy that. He was a trained and experienced police officer who was training others. For him to "freeze" in a chaotic situation defies his job description. Especially when he was the one in control of that situation.
Your point is well made. The same argument was fomented by right wing Trump supporters spreading the canard that Doctors were reaping “bounties” on COVID-19 patients applying false certificates of death to people who died of heart failure while coincidently having COVID-19.
But there is also a classic “Black thug” defense strategy being promoted as well. That is to show that he was big, dangerous, high on drugs and of course Black. A real “gangsta” who got what he deserved.
I’ve seen this disgusting dog whistling racist ploy played out in the Trayvon Martin murder here in Flawriduh.
I watched the 9 minute 29 second video. The prosecutor is right. The video says it all. Chauvin committed Murder in the Second Degree. He is a genuine sociopath if ever there was one.
And he did it effortlessly and I felt he was enjoying his power whilst his comrades protected him from anyone intervening. No one needs a jury for this kind of blatant crime against humanity.
This is the exact argument I presented to a "nonvaxer" today, who "doesn't believe more than 500,000 Americans have died from covid. I asked her if she believed Floyd died from a guy kneeling on his neck until he lost consciousness, or did he just have a heart attack, cause that's their defense of the indefensible.
And what did the non-believer/non-vaxer say in response? We all saw the murder for ourselves. The evidence is traumatizing for normal people to witness. These impunity laws for government employees and how the Supreme Court protects them is one more thing on our country's list of Things to Do for Change to protect our citizens from corrupt officials.
can we stop using those who want the vaccine and those who don’t a reason to create more divisiveness ? Do we really need any more of that in this country?
I’m sorry, Elaine, but it is not us here who are creating the divisiveness. It is those that refuse to use their common sense and intellect to actually look at the truth and make decisions based on that. A good friend from college told me yesterday that she wasn’t able to spend Easter with her family because she got the vaccine. What? Yep. Her ill-informed relatives said she would “shed” the virus when she saw them. None of the vaccines even use virus in their development and the two main ones use mRNA technology. This is not a hidden fact. But the lies that spread this nonsense are what is causing the divisiveness.
And those "fearless" individuals who refuse the vaccine don't understand (or care) that if they're not vaccinated and catch the virus, they will pass it to others who haven't been able to get an appointment to be vaccinated. It is not all about them and their rights!
How sad. I am pleased that Biden and his administration regularly references science in his comments, because it’s going to take several years to make a dent in the anti-science view of the previous occupants of the White House.
I still maintain that people have the right to their own choices and when we take those choices away (And make fun of them because we think they’re not as smart as we are)it’s going to come back to haunt us. I’m 70 and I’ve come to a place in my life that I’m really grateful for which is that I make my choices based on what I think are facts and I am aware that at some point I may find out that those facts are really not true. We are all doing the best we can. I still maintain that people have the right to their own choices and when we take those choices away because we feel they are not educated enough or not aware enough, it’s going to come back to haunt us.
"I still maintain that people have the right to their own choices"
Thank you, Elaine. I usually appreciate your comments, but this is off the mark. In a pandemic no one lives or decides in a vacuum. People who go maskless or unvaccinated affect other people's health beyond simple matters of convenience or personal philosophies of rights. They effectively choose to place others at risk who have not made the same choice, and that is not a right; it is wrong.
It's not because they're perceived as ignorant or stupid, though they may well be factors. It's because of real, actual consequences of not contributing to protect public health. Your concerns are abstract, they are possibilities; the contrary view addresses concrete realities.
Here in MA a couple of years ago, Gov Baker mandated flu shots for all. Now he rejects mandating Covid vaccination. Why? Because he panders to business and other interests with selfish agendas. Perhaps worse, it looks like he's running for president and is trawling for votes from Trumpsky supporters. That has nothing to do with protecting public health in the state that elected him, and much to do with his political ambitions. In late Jan he also, infamously, expressed qualified approval of the Jan 6 insurrectionists, similar to Trumpsky saying there were "good people on both sides" in the 2017 Charlottesville tragedy.
With rights come responsibilities and obligations We can't have one without the other.
Hi Elaine. When it comes to science and factual information, people certainly can make the choice to ignore or deny it, but their denial does not alter the truth and the people who point that out are not "taking those choices away." People are entitled to their opinions, but empirical, factual data is not subject to opinion. Choosing not to become vaccinated based on faulty science and conspiracy nonsense while claiming it to be a choice or a right is, well, not very logical.
Elaine, respectfully, people who refuse to wear masks, social distance, and reject a vaccine are not affecting only themselves. They affect everyone around themselves - family, friends, and strangers. As I said earlier, if they never leave their house and don't allow visitors, and then refuse to practice proven means to prevent the virus's spread, that could be acceptable; but if their decisions end up affecting me or others, then it's flatly not okay. I've been at home for about a year. I go out only to buy groceries or other essential errands, and wear a mask and maintain distance from others. We cancelled Thanksgiving, Christmas, birthdays and vacations. None of that hurt, considering that I endangered nobody and we were as safe as possible. It has been a difficult, sad year, but I know I didn't contribute to the ghastly number of deaths. Over half a million died, and many could have been saved had everyone done what so many did and used common sense. This often has little to do with intelligence, but everything to do with character.
Elaine, l would like to elaborate on the stance of freedom of choice. Let us first accept the argument, while putting it in context. We are dealing with a worldwide health crisis. We live a country that can vaccinate the entire population, for whom it is necessary, in a month or so. There is ample scientific and medical evidence that if people continue to wear their face masks and about 75% of the population takes the vaccine, which have proven to be immensely effective in protecting individuals, we will soon thereafter be able to return to close to normal daily life. Unfortunately, social-media has sites rife with misinformation and conspiracy theories at odds with the facts. People who are vulnerable to that sort of propaganda/alternative facts’ and others who only want to do what they feel like doing without regard for the health of others, represent a societal threat. In a health and moral crisis such as this, what do you recommend?
Just a thought, I don’t mean to offend anyone, but the people who seem to be perpetuating the stance that it is their “choice”, not to get the vaccine are the same people that don’t understand the right of every women to “choose” what to do with her body. Now, they may argue that one choice ends a life, but aren’t they putting our lives at risk?
As for the comment that Florida is a different world, it certainly is. I have watched three republican governors destroy Special Education. I know that because I taught Special Education for 21 years. Sorry for the soap box.
People have a lot of rights. But all of those come with consequences. Once the vaccine is fully distributed we need to consider restrictions for school, employment, etc. That sorts out the anti vaxxers right to pass along disease and my right to stay alive.
What should haunt one is the knowledge that the heartless insistence that one has the right to reject the COVIID 19 vaccine may lead to the death of many others.
There are some pretty far fetched opinions, aren’t there? But there are also opinions somewhere in the middle. It’s not either logical people making decisions OR crazy uninformed People . There’s a whole gray area. My professor used to say to me “always watch the gray area”. That’s where the truth is.
Elaine, people who do not believe that 545,000 people have died is petrifying. This is not divisiveness, this is conspiracy theorists who have been brainwashed. If no one helps them to wake up, you have a country that can be completely taken over by those who believe they are superior in all things. Take the SS for instance in the the 1930's hauling innocent people off to jail because they believe what the Fuhrer told them about Jews being vermin and beneath them. This is about ethical behaviors and stopping a pandemic where I know people who have suffered horrific deaths from this virus. You have a right to be passive, we have a right to want to end this pandemic and to want protection for ourselves and one another.
How do you propose to stop fanatics and conspiracy theorists in all walks of life if you do not call them out on their ignorance— PARTICULARLY when their actions and beliefs can lethally harm others? I do not see this as divisive as much as educational for the good of the whole.
That the people died...that is certain and doubt is unforgiveable ignorance.....As long as you remember that 80% of the deaths in Europe have been of people with significant possibly lethal "other" medical conditions. In France the health institution even gets a budget increase for every death that they certify as "covid related" ....my mother in law's death was certified as covid related ....which was true in a way as the isolation led her to "giving up"...but she had no symptomes what so ever and was in good health for her 94 years until she was quarantined.
Their other defense--there was a crowd gathered yelling at Chauvin who was afraid--makes no sense. First, per the video, there was no "crowd" (in the common use of that descriptor) nor fear on Chauvin's face. Second, isn't that counterintuitive? If he truly was in fear, why didn't he stop? His actions clearly upset on-lookers and this defense shows he was aware that it did. The testifying witnesses clearly were fearful of Chauvin or they would have done more to stop him, as I understand their testimony. I agree with other commenters who are concerned about the jury in Minneapolis.
Yes! based on the video from several angles there were less onlooker then one would typically see at the scene of a bad car wreck. You may recall how the defense constantly urged the witnesses to agree that there was a large mob and lots of chaos... The Black guy was absolutely correct to call Chauvin a “bum” which he did not tie together with the F-Bomb much at all which frankly surprised me.
I want to know why? Why with three cops subduing Floyd, who after being pulled from the police car to the ground was more than willing to cooperate after Chauvin put the choke knee on his neck; Three cops whi made NO attempt to upright him, to calm him or put him back in the car. I mean just what were they waiting for except for him to be dead.
There is no proof that Chauvin was afraid. He will need to take the stand to give that evidence. Otherwise, this is just defense counsel wool-gathering...
Sadly, education and infrastructure.... and both would surely benefit everyone, and perhaps stem the tide of racism and unemployment..... it’s so screwed up, everywhere.
The testimonies today were heartbreaking. Two teenage girls, a nine year old girl, a female firefighter who wanted to help medically but they refused to let her. A man who kept calling for Chauvin to lift his knee off George Floyd’s neck, realized he had just witnessed a murder and called 911. They all watched him die, and they are all haunted by his preventable death. And tonight, I am haunted by their testimony. They all will live with the trauma of what they witnessed for the rest of their lives. - one a nine year old girl, two 17 year old girls, one of which had the courage and the wisdom to capture that video on the other’s phone. This nightmare will follow them forever. The firefighter who knew this man was dying and couldn’t persuade the officers to let her check for a pulse, noting that the placement and pressure of Derek Chauvin’s knee on George Floyd’s neck would have caused him intense pain. This country will live with the trauma of what happened for decades to come.
I find the defense's argument flawed that George Floyd had comorbidities that caused his death. If I were on the jury, I would want to know whether George Floyd would have died that day of those comorbidities but for the intervention of a knee on his neck while on his stomach, handcuffed, with the weight of 2 "grown men" on his back (not counting Chauvin).
I am a (retired) police use of force instructor. I have taught the LVNR (lateral vascular neck restraint, aka carotid restraint, both of which are mechanically different from a choke hold, a martial arts submission hold) and I have been taught (because I was too close to retirement to have the department train me to be an instructor) taser application. On our force matrix/guide/continuum, consideration of a persons age, visible medical conditions, or disability was ALWAYS a concern and mentioned in all of our training. We also taught that force is applied until compliance is gained, then the person is restrained, the force application stops, and medical care is given if necessary. Concerns regarding positional asphyxia were also emphasized, and restrained subjects were never to be placed either prone or supine for any length of time.
I cannot fathom the casual indifference displayed by Chauvin.
Like I mentioned yesterday, a small nurse and I managed to take down crazy large men in a psych hospital with no weapons and without killing them. If they were too large a code was called and every assistant rushed to the unit to help. There were 4 pigs on scene and yet they killed a man WHO WAS IN HANDCUFFS. The other 3 should be charged with felony murder just like with any gang killing.
Chauvin’s posture looked indifferent, but, the look on his face was pure arrogance. I read that he was not only the officer in charge, but, also training new officers. So they all obeyed his command to hold Mr Floyd down and keep witnesses away. He was setting an example. God help us all.
I hope the prosecution has expert witnesses as articulate as you.
Thank you for your comments. Similar opinion voiced by a guest on CNN, a former police commissioner from PA....” force is applied until compliance is gained, then the person is restrained, the force application stops, and medical care is given if necessary. Concerns regarding positional asphyxia were also emphasized, and restrained subjects were never to be placed either prone or supine for any length of time.” He was already cuffed, he was not resisting; the part where Chauvin exhorted him to “get up, get in the car” over and over was sickening, as his knee was still in place. He didn’t even move when the ambulance arrived...and I thought those guys were a little too casual also.
If Chauvin's motive was law enforcement, he did everything wrong. If Chauvin's motive was personal, he did everything right.
Thank you, Ally. I hope the expert testimony that is to come will include witnesses of your caliber.
Ally The casual indifference you mention was apparently personal. There are officers whose previous histories with their perps leads to such personal indifference. I am not a prosecutor but I feel there is a case for first degree murder here. I also believe we will be lucky if Chauvin goes to jail for any length of time
Agreed. All the techniques and technicalities mean nothing when police act subjectively, as Chauvin did with Mr Floyd because they had a prior history. Then there's pulling Mr Floyd out of the car. Someone handcuffed and subdued in a police car is complying, period. There is no need for officers to instigate violent contact.
Hello TPJ, it’s me. I am responding to an offer you made back in early February when you invited me to suggest books to read, index and footnotes only. If you see this post, here’s my suggestion: Reincarnation: The Phoenix Fire Mystery, Sylvia Cranston, ed.
Ally, I couldn't say that Chauvin was 'indifferent' about what he was doing. He looked quite purposeful is his behavior. Does he care that he killed George Floyd? I don't know how he feels about the attention. Chauvin's feelings, that's hard to know.
Chauvin did not appear indifferent or absent to me, rather determined. To have HIS way.
Yes! What evil is that?! I guess he is a sociopath.... and will the defense try to pull out the old ‘mental issues’ and ‘abused as a child?!’ He and those people make me so sick! And they are police officers?!
Those in training will say they had to follow his lead. But as humans, they did not.
I differ in what I saw. It seemed to me that he had "zoned out". It was as if he lost a sense of where he was or what he was doing. Especially in light of onlookers and other professionals pleading with him to stop what he was doing.
He did not care. He showed depraved indifference to the risk of the loss of life. He had a crowd of cops around him. They could have put Mr. Floyd in the police car at any time. His pose, the smirk on his face, he looked as though he was enjoying the spectacle and the sense of his own power.
That’s a very empathetic perspective. And it very well may be that when the ‘switch’ is flipped inside a psychopath’s brain... like they go to ‘dial tone’, it may be a subtle defense mechanism to separate them from their actions?!
Cynthia, Your description of disruptive brain function was brilliant, whether non-fiction or fiction is conveys the danger.
Differences in perception, that's what makes juror duty among other forms of group activity so fascinating.
His eyes locked with both the eyes of the young woman who was videoing him and with the lens on her camera. He was fully aware of what he was doing and of the fact that he was both observed and being recorded. His eyes were focussed and he smirked as he looked into the camera. That is about as far from being "zoned out" as you can get. I am of the opinion that not only was he fully aware of what he was doing, he also assumed that the fact he had witnesses made no difference. He assumed he would simply get away with it- because up to now, cops always had.
Annie, my memory of Chauvin's face is very vivid. He was starring down the camera with a cruel, fixed, determined, territorial defiance. He was a human animal on his prey daring anyone to interfere. What a memory. I can feel the experience of seeing him as I describe it here.
I don't buy that. He was a trained and experienced police officer who was training others. For him to "freeze" in a chaotic situation defies his job description. Especially when he was the one in control of that situation.
Good point.
Yikes! That sounds too much like a defense. Your honor, I just zoned out and did not know what I was doing.
I think it is a mental illness defense, but counsel did not claim that as the defendant is pleading not guilty.
Thank you for the clear explanation
Your point is well made. The same argument was fomented by right wing Trump supporters spreading the canard that Doctors were reaping “bounties” on COVID-19 patients applying false certificates of death to people who died of heart failure while coincidently having COVID-19.
But there is also a classic “Black thug” defense strategy being promoted as well. That is to show that he was big, dangerous, high on drugs and of course Black. A real “gangsta” who got what he deserved.
I’ve seen this disgusting dog whistling racist ploy played out in the Trayvon Martin murder here in Flawriduh.
I watched the 9 minute 29 second video. The prosecutor is right. The video says it all. Chauvin committed Murder in the Second Degree. He is a genuine sociopath if ever there was one.
Rodney King's video also said it all, as did Eric Garner's, and Walter Scott's, etc., etc. White supremacy is a powerful dragon.
Especially accompanied with hostility and an overpowering need for power.
And he did it effortlessly and I felt he was enjoying his power whilst his comrades protected him from anyone intervening. No one needs a jury for this kind of blatant crime against humanity.
Yes, bully showing off for his followers.
Yes!
This is the exact argument I presented to a "nonvaxer" today, who "doesn't believe more than 500,000 Americans have died from covid. I asked her if she believed Floyd died from a guy kneeling on his neck until he lost consciousness, or did he just have a heart attack, cause that's their defense of the indefensible.
And what did the non-believer/non-vaxer say in response? We all saw the murder for ourselves. The evidence is traumatizing for normal people to witness. These impunity laws for government employees and how the Supreme Court protects them is one more thing on our country's list of Things to Do for Change to protect our citizens from corrupt officials.
Her response, also disappointing, "I haven't seen the video, I do not want to see it."
Sigh, we need an engaged citizenry too, eh?
“I don’t WANT to see it” applies to all of it including the 500,000 dead. It is exactly the problem. Our minds are rather amazing
At times I’ve been envious of those who can’t see that which is right in front of them
can we stop using those who want the vaccine and those who don’t a reason to create more divisiveness ? Do we really need any more of that in this country?
I’m sorry, Elaine, but it is not us here who are creating the divisiveness. It is those that refuse to use their common sense and intellect to actually look at the truth and make decisions based on that. A good friend from college told me yesterday that she wasn’t able to spend Easter with her family because she got the vaccine. What? Yep. Her ill-informed relatives said she would “shed” the virus when she saw them. None of the vaccines even use virus in their development and the two main ones use mRNA technology. This is not a hidden fact. But the lies that spread this nonsense are what is causing the divisiveness.
And those "fearless" individuals who refuse the vaccine don't understand (or care) that if they're not vaccinated and catch the virus, they will pass it to others who haven't been able to get an appointment to be vaccinated. It is not all about them and their rights!
Not unlike those who have been ignoring CDC guidance around travel, social distancing and mask wearing. Many understand. Many don’t care.
How sad. I am pleased that Biden and his administration regularly references science in his comments, because it’s going to take several years to make a dent in the anti-science view of the previous occupants of the White House.
I still maintain that people have the right to their own choices and when we take those choices away (And make fun of them because we think they’re not as smart as we are)it’s going to come back to haunt us. I’m 70 and I’ve come to a place in my life that I’m really grateful for which is that I make my choices based on what I think are facts and I am aware that at some point I may find out that those facts are really not true. We are all doing the best we can. I still maintain that people have the right to their own choices and when we take those choices away because we feel they are not educated enough or not aware enough, it’s going to come back to haunt us.
"I still maintain that people have the right to their own choices"
Thank you, Elaine. I usually appreciate your comments, but this is off the mark. In a pandemic no one lives or decides in a vacuum. People who go maskless or unvaccinated affect other people's health beyond simple matters of convenience or personal philosophies of rights. They effectively choose to place others at risk who have not made the same choice, and that is not a right; it is wrong.
It's not because they're perceived as ignorant or stupid, though they may well be factors. It's because of real, actual consequences of not contributing to protect public health. Your concerns are abstract, they are possibilities; the contrary view addresses concrete realities.
Here in MA a couple of years ago, Gov Baker mandated flu shots for all. Now he rejects mandating Covid vaccination. Why? Because he panders to business and other interests with selfish agendas. Perhaps worse, it looks like he's running for president and is trawling for votes from Trumpsky supporters. That has nothing to do with protecting public health in the state that elected him, and much to do with his political ambitions. In late Jan he also, infamously, expressed qualified approval of the Jan 6 insurrectionists, similar to Trumpsky saying there were "good people on both sides" in the 2017 Charlottesville tragedy.
With rights come responsibilities and obligations We can't have one without the other.
So, If I choose to drive 100 MPH in a 40 MPH zone, that's OK?
If I have a deadly sexually transmitted disease and choose to have sex without a condom, that's OK?
If I could be harboring a deadly airborne virus and choose not to wear a mask when in close proximity to others, that's OK?
Hi Elaine. When it comes to science and factual information, people certainly can make the choice to ignore or deny it, but their denial does not alter the truth and the people who point that out are not "taking those choices away." People are entitled to their opinions, but empirical, factual data is not subject to opinion. Choosing not to become vaccinated based on faulty science and conspiracy nonsense while claiming it to be a choice or a right is, well, not very logical.
Elaine, respectfully, people who refuse to wear masks, social distance, and reject a vaccine are not affecting only themselves. They affect everyone around themselves - family, friends, and strangers. As I said earlier, if they never leave their house and don't allow visitors, and then refuse to practice proven means to prevent the virus's spread, that could be acceptable; but if their decisions end up affecting me or others, then it's flatly not okay. I've been at home for about a year. I go out only to buy groceries or other essential errands, and wear a mask and maintain distance from others. We cancelled Thanksgiving, Christmas, birthdays and vacations. None of that hurt, considering that I endangered nobody and we were as safe as possible. It has been a difficult, sad year, but I know I didn't contribute to the ghastly number of deaths. Over half a million died, and many could have been saved had everyone done what so many did and used common sense. This often has little to do with intelligence, but everything to do with character.
Elaine, l would like to elaborate on the stance of freedom of choice. Let us first accept the argument, while putting it in context. We are dealing with a worldwide health crisis. We live a country that can vaccinate the entire population, for whom it is necessary, in a month or so. There is ample scientific and medical evidence that if people continue to wear their face masks and about 75% of the population takes the vaccine, which have proven to be immensely effective in protecting individuals, we will soon thereafter be able to return to close to normal daily life. Unfortunately, social-media has sites rife with misinformation and conspiracy theories at odds with the facts. People who are vulnerable to that sort of propaganda/alternative facts’ and others who only want to do what they feel like doing without regard for the health of others, represent a societal threat. In a health and moral crisis such as this, what do you recommend?
Phyllis D. Florida
Just a thought, I don’t mean to offend anyone, but the people who seem to be perpetuating the stance that it is their “choice”, not to get the vaccine are the same people that don’t understand the right of every women to “choose” what to do with her body. Now, they may argue that one choice ends a life, but aren’t they putting our lives at risk?
As for the comment that Florida is a different world, it certainly is. I have watched three republican governors destroy Special Education. I know that because I taught Special Education for 21 years. Sorry for the soap box.
People have a lot of rights. But all of those come with consequences. Once the vaccine is fully distributed we need to consider restrictions for school, employment, etc. That sorts out the anti vaxxers right to pass along disease and my right to stay alive.
What should haunt one is the knowledge that the heartless insistence that one has the right to reject the COVIID 19 vaccine may lead to the death of many others.
If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.
There are some pretty far fetched opinions, aren’t there? But there are also opinions somewhere in the middle. It’s not either logical people making decisions OR crazy uninformed People . There’s a whole gray area. My professor used to say to me “always watch the gray area”. That’s where the truth is.
Elaine, people who do not believe that 545,000 people have died is petrifying. This is not divisiveness, this is conspiracy theorists who have been brainwashed. If no one helps them to wake up, you have a country that can be completely taken over by those who believe they are superior in all things. Take the SS for instance in the the 1930's hauling innocent people off to jail because they believe what the Fuhrer told them about Jews being vermin and beneath them. This is about ethical behaviors and stopping a pandemic where I know people who have suffered horrific deaths from this virus. You have a right to be passive, we have a right to want to end this pandemic and to want protection for ourselves and one another.
How do you propose to stop fanatics and conspiracy theorists in all walks of life if you do not call them out on their ignorance— PARTICULARLY when their actions and beliefs can lethally harm others? I do not see this as divisive as much as educational for the good of the whole.
That the people died...that is certain and doubt is unforgiveable ignorance.....As long as you remember that 80% of the deaths in Europe have been of people with significant possibly lethal "other" medical conditions. In France the health institution even gets a budget increase for every death that they certify as "covid related" ....my mother in law's death was certified as covid related ....which was true in a way as the isolation led her to "giving up"...but she had no symptomes what so ever and was in good health for her 94 years until she was quarantined.
No, we can't. Public health is just that, public. Those who refuse to get a vaccination
(or wear a mask) in the name of their "choice", affect my health. Like second hand smoke, they infect the air i breathe.
Kelly Sullivan (FL)just now
Their other defense--there was a crowd gathered yelling at Chauvin who was afraid--makes no sense. First, per the video, there was no "crowd" (in the common use of that descriptor) nor fear on Chauvin's face. Second, isn't that counterintuitive? If he truly was in fear, why didn't he stop? His actions clearly upset on-lookers and this defense shows he was aware that it did. The testifying witnesses clearly were fearful of Chauvin or they would have done more to stop him, as I understand their testimony. I agree with other commenters who are concerned about the jury in Minneapolis.
Yes! based on the video from several angles there were less onlooker then one would typically see at the scene of a bad car wreck. You may recall how the defense constantly urged the witnesses to agree that there was a large mob and lots of chaos... The Black guy was absolutely correct to call Chauvin a “bum” which he did not tie together with the F-Bomb much at all which frankly surprised me.
I want to know why? Why with three cops subduing Floyd, who after being pulled from the police car to the ground was more than willing to cooperate after Chauvin put the choke knee on his neck; Three cops whi made NO attempt to upright him, to calm him or put him back in the car. I mean just what were they waiting for except for him to be dead.
There is no proof that Chauvin was afraid. He will need to take the stand to give that evidence. Otherwise, this is just defense counsel wool-gathering...
I watched his face during the entire video, and saw not a trace of fear.
We know the answer to that question - NO!
The witnesses should sue Chauvin and the Minneapolis Police Dept over the pain and suffering they suffered and still endure.
I heard that this has already cost the city of Mpls $27,000,000.... and it’s not over yet!
Imagine what the city could have done with 27 million dollars.
Sadly, education and infrastructure.... and both would surely benefit everyone, and perhaps stem the tide of racism and unemployment..... it’s so screwed up, everywhere.