Did HCR treat the last line of President Biden's speech at Royal Castle in the Poland too lightly -- much too lightly?
“For God’s sake,” he said, “this man cannot remain in power.”
'That last line seemed a logical conclusion to the argument Biden has been making about the struggle between democracy and autocracy, rallying democratic countr…
Did HCR treat the last line of President Biden's speech at Royal Castle in the Poland too lightly -- much too lightly?
“For God’s sake,” he said, “this man cannot remain in power.”
'That last line seemed a logical conclusion to the argument Biden has been making about the struggle between democracy and autocracy, rallying democratic countries to stay unified against Putin as his troops smash Ukraine. But it prompted a flurry of media stories saying Biden had made a gaffe, changing his long-standing insistence that the U.S. is not engaging in regime change but rather is trying to defend Ukraine’s right to exist independently of Russia.' (Letter)
Biden's line a 'gaffe'? “For God’s sake,” he said, “this man cannot remain in power.” … 'an unintentional act or remark causing embarrassment to its originator; a blunder.
Biden's line was in my opinion far more consequential than a 'gaffe'. Here we are in the midst of Putin seeking to wreak Ukraine and the threat of using nuclear weapons is not idle talk.
I don't think it a mystery how Putin took Biden's line. It came at a time when Putin is suffering a crucial loss to his sense of invincibility, Biden's line was extremely provocative. It is not so much how the media toys with Joe's costly mouthing; it is about what Putin makes of it, and he won't forget.
This isn't what friendly folks want or don't want. It is about being smart during wartime. Joe's mouth was out of control. It wasn't the least bit smart. Do you see the administration running away from it to no avail?
Anyway. President Biden was flanked by members of NATO. They obviously chose him to speak for them. He has decades of foreign experience. He has knowledge of behind the scenes information we can't even begin to imagine the content.
I refuse to follow along with the petty press and call this a gaffe. Why pick it apart? I see no good in it except to further wobble support for this President and his mission of shoring up Democracy here and around the world.
He has been hailed by NATO allies. But back in America we continue to pick pick pick.
I very much dislike how the word “gaffe” has now and forever been associated with Biden’s speaking, driven by the media’s characterization of him. If we disagree with what he said (which, to be fair, is what most like-minded people think), call it something else, but not a gaffe, or you cement thinking of him like this. Was it a mistake to say what he said? I don’t know, probably. But maybe we could talk about it using a different word.
Indeed, Biden, the quintessential Deep State swamp creature,, has "knowledge behind the scenes"; he knows where a lot of bodies are buried. And regarding "information we can't even begin to imagine the content," please read on:
My assessment of the habitual mendacity of the mainstream news media, including its deplorable coverage of the situation in Ukraine, together with my inclinication to condemn the genocidal imperialism emanating from Washington, D.C., has been strongly influenced over the past three decades by my reading of Davison Budhoo's 100-page resignation letter from the International Monetary Fund, which I view as essentially honest, and which is a taboo subject, blacked out of the mainstream news media.
And now, for the first time, the first 29 pages are readily available online. I'll share a few quotes:
"To me resignation is a priceless liberation, for with it I have taken the first big step to that place where I may hope to wash my hands of what in my mind’s eye is the blood of millions of poor and starving peoples. Mr. Camdessus, the blood is so much, you know, it runs in rivers."
"The charges that I make are not light charges - they are charges that touch at the very heart of western society and western morality and post-war inter-governmental institutionalism that have degenerated into fake and sham under the pretext of establishing and maintaining international economic order and global efficiency."
"Will the world be content merely to brand our institution as among the most insidious enemies of humankind? Will our fellowmen condemn us thus and let the matter rest? Or will the heirs of those whom we have dismembered in our own peculiar Holocaust clamor for another Nuremberg?
"I don’t mind telling you that this matter has haunted me; it has haunted me particularly over the past five years. It has haunted me because I know that if I am tried I will be found guilty, very guilty, without extenuating circumstance."
"In guilt and self-realization of my own worthlessness as a human being, what I would like to do most of all is to so propel myself that I can get the man-in-the-street of North and South and East and West and First and Second and Third and Fourth and All Other Worlds to take an interest in what is happening to his single planet, his single habitat, because our institution was allowed to evolve in a particular way in late twentieth century international society, and allowed to become the supra-national authority that controls the day-to-day lives of hundreds of millions of people everywhere."
"We get away with our works of Dracula hiding behind the mask of Superior Technocracy and a Greater Wisdom striving for “financial balance” and “structural adjustment” in the Third World."
"And so it goes on and on and on. And nothing changes in the developing world except more death and destitution for the people in the slums, and more power for the Fund. And with the passing of every meeting our staff becomes even more reinvigorated; they wield a sharper and more bloodied tool; an even more terrifying Executor’s Axe stand poised for service everywhere in the South. And the children scream, Sir; my God, how they scream!"
(Budhoo is referring here to the incessant screaming of starving infants. When they stop screaming, you know that death is near.)
"The business of a New York journalist is to distort the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of Mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread, or for what is about the same -- his salary. You know this, and I know it; and what foolery to be toasting an 'Independent Press! We are the tools and vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are jumping-jacks. They pull the string and we dance. Our time, our talents, our lives, our possibilities, are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes." ~John Swinton (1829–1901)
Barbara, in recent months you have attacked subscribers who differed with President Biden and or criticized our country. While in the past you were associated with causes that opposed actions by the U.S. government -- not now. You have written comments indicating that at this time you found such 'negativity' almost unpatriotic. I think your position is undemocratic. It is as though you are on a mission to quell dissent. We cannot all be fans as you have become. As much as I am grateful that Biden is our president and impressed by his efforts to improve the lives of many, he is not infallible. Joe Biden is not king. I shall break your rule to say at best, I think you have been overbearing in your zeal.
An old saying I've often heard: when you point your finger at someone in judgement, keep in mind that your other fingers are pointing back toward yourself. A country way of saying projection, and you might think about that, Fern.
While your posts are generally intelligently written, they are not necessarily insightful or deep, and too often get stuck on inconsequential details or simply arguing about who is right, keeping the focus on you and how intelligent you are compared to others. It's tiresome.
Annie, You make it your business to judge people and obviously have a high opinion of your talent or wouldn't feel up to doing it so often. Being on the forum affords you plenty of subjects. You're in the right place Annie, and not pleasant, while you're at it. Salud.
Fern, I rarely disagree with you. But I believe Joe Biden said what needed to be said. Everything Biden does to oppose this genocide will anger Putin. Biden is showing leadership. Perhaps if Putin dares to show up at the G20, all the leaders from democracies will turn their backs on him or simply exit the room if he enters.
There is little hope for diplomacy now. There is only carefully applied strength. There are signs that it is working.
It wouldn't be a bad idea for the Russian people to see their leader dissed on the largest international stage. Putin is a pariah and his people should see that.
Good grief, Fern. What is this really all about? Making overmuch of something that isn't all that important. The scales simply do not balance on the amount of energy being put into it. For what? To come out on top? Can we stop this, please?
It's about piling on. One faction piles on another. You must be able to recognize that by now as its become quite a popular sport on this page. And we all play the game here, n'est pas?
I don't know how you came to believe I was referring at all to the Russians or suggesting the use of 'kid gloves'. My point is Putin was getting very negative marks and that it was not 'smart', of Biden calling negative attention to himself when the enemy is under klieg lights. The question and answer that I raised is how to speak strategically during wartime and not run your mouth
Rjs, You referred to Russians. What 'negative' remarks are you talking about? I found fault with Biden's unwise adlib, you disagree. That is fine with me. What are you complaining about?
Hello Fern! I do not think the last line of Biden's speech in Poland changed much of anything. Despite a failing military campaign with egregious losses, the Russians are not serious about a diplomatic solution. To them, Ukraine seems to be Chechnya on a larger scale.
Also, I would be totally gobsmacked if Putin has not assumed that the US/EU have wanted him out for the past 22 years. The invasion of Ukraine, the subjugation of Chechnya, the partial take over of Georgia, are all really aimed at preventing regime change in Russia. Did Biden foolishly touch a sore spot by saying Putin must go? Yes. Will those 9 words change the trajectory of what is happening in Russia, Ukraine, and Europe? No.
Vladimir Putin worries a lot more about his own people than what Joe Biden says or does. He sits in deep paranoia at the end of an endlessly long table, attends banquets but does not eat, drink, or touch anything. You think this man worries about us here in the US? Maybe, but his deepest fear is that Russians figure out who he really is, the Kleptocrat in Chief, the liar, the manipulator, the guy who doesn't care one whit about whether any other Russians live or die. His time will come, and it won't be pretty!
Do you dismiss the motive of revenge? At a time when Putin is mad out of mind because of the military embarrassment in Ukraine, when word of the war is getting out to some Russians and his country's economy is being shut down -- when he seems less invincible -- Joe's mouth gets out of control. Do you ignore the Putin - Trump alliance; Russian's ways on social media; the midterms... do you think Putin's natural instincts have been calmed or excited? On this one Steve, we are not aligned. Have you noticed how fast the administration is running away from it -- to no avail? Biden may have adlibbed, but this is no gaffe; it was lack of control at a price. Let Putin's mistakes fester without bringing negative attention to yourself, Mr. President.
Hi Fern. Putin has done far more damage to Putin than a sentence uttered by Joe Biden ever could. Putin's "natural instincts" have been excited for months. The Russian economy is being dismantled by sanctions. Their military has proven to be a very rusty tiger. The upper and middle management of Russian bureaucracy is made up, by intention, of not very talented people. Once the Russian stock market reopened, the Chinese started to not-so-quietly buy up Russian companies at bargain prices. This is public knowledge. The myth of Putin's "invincibility" has been exposed for lo these many weeks. As for revenge, what, really, can Putin do that is not already in motion? Nukes? Yes, that is why diplomacy is the only realistic way out of this mess. Did Biden's "Putin must go" remark make that more difficult? Yes. Insurmountable? No. Putin already has an unchewable mouthful. Biden's distraction from that fact really does not change anything.
Hi Steve. I appreciate this opportunity for us to elaborate on different points of view. I am sorry that Biden moved the klieg lights that were on Putin to himself. I also think that Biden provided 'them' with propaganda. Biden's line will have no effect on regime change. As I've written Biden diverted attention at a time. He should not be the subject now. In the ways I have suggested, his line did move the needle. It is possible to incite a wild animal to feed the monster's appetite. I cannot join you, Steve, with conclusion nothing happened. I wish it hadn't happened. You did in this comment move a little closer to 'something did happen'. I'm smiling, because we are two of friendliest with different points of view.
Hang in there Fern. I don't like disagreeing with you because you are brilliant. We'll see where and how far the needle moves in the coming days. The world is in a very reactive and distractable place right now. I never thought Biden's remark was nothing, I just don't think it is a game changer.
Steve, I will always 'hang in there', with you. I wasn't joking when I wrote that I appreciated the opportunity to elaborate on our differences of opinion. Most arguments, unfortunately, aren't as friendly as ours. Big smile.
I agree that though his last remark is what most of us are feeling, President Biden saying it took attention away from the body of this speech that was both brilliant and historical. It will be up to the MSM to pull back from the attention they are giving it. The MSM already put trump in office with the unbelievable amount of free press he was afforded. You’d think they’d have learned their lesson that ratings are not worth losing our democracy or inflaming an embarrassed tyrant. Is this me being naive?
Sharon, I wouldn't put this on MSM. I've already seen very qualified people expressing their concern about the line and Biden owns it. Not a 'gaffe' from my point of view but a strategic error of note. I don't think that it can be missed or dismissed. We don't know the consequences, but I'd say the line was regrettable.
I suspect it has not been much of an "embarrassment" for Putin: That is western propaganda spin. Russia's principal initual goal has been to degrade Ukraine's military capability, especially of the Ukrainian right-wing neo-Nazi military formations, and most especially in the Donbass area.
Russia has refrained from wholesale assaults on Jkrainian cities, with the significant exception of Maruipol, where the so-called Azov battalion (regiment) has a fanatic attachment, and where these neo-Nazis have been holding the civilian population hostage.
Oh, are we a minority, Lisa! I don't know if it has anything to do with being in recovery from the former president, but many subscribers seem to me to be oversensitive to any fault found with Biden. It may also have to do with the weakness of democracy in the USA. Do you think, paradoxically, that there is an undemocratic flavor to it? I don't mind being in the minority as it isn't a new experience me. Understandably, it feels good to hear Biden talk tough and express what the people themselves (including me) feel about Putin. It is one thing to have your feelings ratified by the president and for the world to hear but another to speak strategically in war time -- why inflame the enemy when his failure in Ukraine is burning bright under klieg lights. Why take any of that negative attention away from Putin?. My uneasiness is the reluctance of quite a few to even consider that perspective.
I hate to jump in here, but I think it’s more a wartime mentality that any harsh criticism of “our” side provides ammunition to the other side, be that our own home-grown autocratic, anti-democracy Republicans, or Putin and Russia. As I said in another comment, I don’t know if what Biden said was a mistake or not. None of us can truly know that, at least not yet. I think it likely that we’re all at least partly right - the comment can both provide ammunition to Putin and reflect western thinking and not matter very much at the same time. And I completely agree with you that we must support people’s right to make these criticisms. I defend your right to do so, but the fear of weakening our own position by doing so is, I think, not entirely misplaced. Thank goodness we still live somewhere where this kind of political discourse is possible.
Hi Charlie, Did anyone suggest that Biden didn't know what he was saying or that he lacked conviction? The line was not a 'gaffe' in my opinion and wrote so a few times, I don't understand why you addressed your statement to me, Charlie. What was your point?
Yes, Laura. My mind has centered on what Putin will do with that line of Biden's so has almost everyone else.
'How Biden sparked a global uproar with nine ad-libbed words about Putin'
'By declaring that the Russian leader ‘cannot remain in power,’ the U.S. president seemed to suggest a drastic change in U.S. policy — prompting a scramble by White House officials.'
“The words of a president matter,” he said more than once. “They can move markets. They can send our brave men and women to war. They can bring peace.”
'They can also, as Biden discovered on Saturday, spark a global uproar in the middle of a war.'
'With nine ad-libbed words at the end of a 27-minute speech, Biden created an unwanted distraction to his otherwise forceful remarks by calling for Russian President Vladimir Putin to be pushed out of office.'
“For God’s sake, this man cannot remain in power,” Biden said.'
'Shortly after the speech, a White House official sought to clarify the comments.
“The president’s point was that Putin cannot be allowed to exercise power over his neighbors or the region. He was not discussing Putin’s power in Russia or regime change,” the official said.'
“The speech was quite remarkable,” said Aaron David Miller, a veteran diplomat and senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. “This is one of those speeches where the one-liner in many ways drowns out the intent of the speech. Because that’s exactly what people are focusing on.”
“What it tells me, and worries me, is that the top team is not thinking about plausible war termination,” said Michael O’Hanlon, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and author of the book “The Art of War in an Age of Peace: U.S. Grand Strategy and Resolute Restraint.”
“If they were, Biden’s head wouldn’t be in a place where he’s saying, ‘Putin must go.’ The only way to get to war termination is to negotiate with this guy,” O’Hanlon said.' (Washington Post) See link below.
Fern, I happen to nudge towards your angle on this. Biden has a history of gaffes. This line plays into our historic knowledge of “Uncle Joe”. I believe it opened a Hugh front to divert attention from the crisis to the MSM entertainment/outrage machine. By saying such a consequential line, at such a pivotal moment in the war, it emboldens all the conspiracists - Putin included- to claim that America has only wanted regime change. And our history with “regime-change” blunders feeds this. It’s a remark that will vibrate a force to split Americans further, and most unfortunately, endanger the fragile solidarity of NATO. All the while Zelensky is passionately criticizing NATO for eloquent words but no muscled effectual help.
Michele, You extended the understanding of how Biden's line interrupted very significant business. I never considered his mouthing this time a 'gaffe' because in my opinion it was more consequential than that. During wartime, to incite the enemy and provide propaganda -- not made up stuff -- but right out there for the world to see -- that is a strategic mistake written large. You pointed to our history of 'regime change'. We're an easy mark on that score. I don't know that it will split NATO, but it is definitely cause for concern. I think TC frequently says, 'It's not easy.' Is it not!
Just want to thank Fern, et al, for the above discussion. I came in late to the thread this Sunday so I am just now getting into it. This back and forth keeps us from being a bubbly echo chamber!!!
I think that you have expressed the democratic spirit, Carol, in favor of robust exchange and a search for the truth. That isn't so easy -- plenty of shades in the mix. This is a very difficult time as we work together in the midst of a tragic, uncalled for war and a wobbly democracy at home. No matter - when I think of the Ukrainian people, I feel good as they have shown us strength as well as sorrow. Too many bad actors around and many more good ones, including the subscribers on the forum. Cheers, Carol, on we go.🌈🌻❤️
Heather Cox Richardson and others may want to consider President Biden's recent speech as a calculated response to President Putin's speech of Feb. 23:
Did HCR treat the last line of President Biden's speech at Royal Castle in the Poland too lightly -- much too lightly?
“For God’s sake,” he said, “this man cannot remain in power.”
'That last line seemed a logical conclusion to the argument Biden has been making about the struggle between democracy and autocracy, rallying democratic countries to stay unified against Putin as his troops smash Ukraine. But it prompted a flurry of media stories saying Biden had made a gaffe, changing his long-standing insistence that the U.S. is not engaging in regime change but rather is trying to defend Ukraine’s right to exist independently of Russia.' (Letter)
Biden's line a 'gaffe'? “For God’s sake,” he said, “this man cannot remain in power.” … 'an unintentional act or remark causing embarrassment to its originator; a blunder.
Biden's line was in my opinion far more consequential than a 'gaffe'. Here we are in the midst of Putin seeking to wreak Ukraine and the threat of using nuclear weapons is not idle talk.
I don't think it a mystery how Putin took Biden's line. It came at a time when Putin is suffering a crucial loss to his sense of invincibility, Biden's line was extremely provocative. It is not so much how the media toys with Joe's costly mouthing; it is about what Putin makes of it, and he won't forget.
So everyone is clamoring for President Biden to get tough and when he does everyone runs and hides under the covers. Which is it folks.
Exactly. And too many Democrats and the media play the Tone Card when Democrats bluntly speak truth.
This isn't what friendly folks want or don't want. It is about being smart during wartime. Joe's mouth was out of control. It wasn't the least bit smart. Do you see the administration running away from it to no avail?
Huh? What friendly folk?
Anyway. President Biden was flanked by members of NATO. They obviously chose him to speak for them. He has decades of foreign experience. He has knowledge of behind the scenes information we can't even begin to imagine the content.
I refuse to follow along with the petty press and call this a gaffe. Why pick it apart? I see no good in it except to further wobble support for this President and his mission of shoring up Democracy here and around the world.
He has been hailed by NATO allies. But back in America we continue to pick pick pick.
I very much dislike how the word “gaffe” has now and forever been associated with Biden’s speaking, driven by the media’s characterization of him. If we disagree with what he said (which, to be fair, is what most like-minded people think), call it something else, but not a gaffe, or you cement thinking of him like this. Was it a mistake to say what he said? I don’t know, probably. But maybe we could talk about it using a different word.
So agree, KR!! Stop with Biden’s “gaffes” already!
!!! Agree
Indeed, Biden, the quintessential Deep State swamp creature,, has "knowledge behind the scenes"; he knows where a lot of bodies are buried. And regarding "information we can't even begin to imagine the content," please read on:
My assessment of the habitual mendacity of the mainstream news media, including its deplorable coverage of the situation in Ukraine, together with my inclinication to condemn the genocidal imperialism emanating from Washington, D.C., has been strongly influenced over the past three decades by my reading of Davison Budhoo's 100-page resignation letter from the International Monetary Fund, which I view as essentially honest, and which is a taboo subject, blacked out of the mainstream news media.
And now, for the first time, the first 29 pages are readily available online. I'll share a few quotes:
"To me resignation is a priceless liberation, for with it I have taken the first big step to that place where I may hope to wash my hands of what in my mind’s eye is the blood of millions of poor and starving peoples. Mr. Camdessus, the blood is so much, you know, it runs in rivers."
"The charges that I make are not light charges - they are charges that touch at the very heart of western society and western morality and post-war inter-governmental institutionalism that have degenerated into fake and sham under the pretext of establishing and maintaining international economic order and global efficiency."
"Will the world be content merely to brand our institution as among the most insidious enemies of humankind? Will our fellowmen condemn us thus and let the matter rest? Or will the heirs of those whom we have dismembered in our own peculiar Holocaust clamor for another Nuremberg?
"I don’t mind telling you that this matter has haunted me; it has haunted me particularly over the past five years. It has haunted me because I know that if I am tried I will be found guilty, very guilty, without extenuating circumstance."
"In guilt and self-realization of my own worthlessness as a human being, what I would like to do most of all is to so propel myself that I can get the man-in-the-street of North and South and East and West and First and Second and Third and Fourth and All Other Worlds to take an interest in what is happening to his single planet, his single habitat, because our institution was allowed to evolve in a particular way in late twentieth century international society, and allowed to become the supra-national authority that controls the day-to-day lives of hundreds of millions of people everywhere."
"We get away with our works of Dracula hiding behind the mask of Superior Technocracy and a Greater Wisdom striving for “financial balance” and “structural adjustment” in the Third World."
"And so it goes on and on and on. And nothing changes in the developing world except more death and destitution for the people in the slums, and more power for the Fund. And with the passing of every meeting our staff becomes even more reinvigorated; they wield a sharper and more bloodied tool; an even more terrifying Executor’s Axe stand poised for service everywhere in the South. And the children scream, Sir; my God, how they scream!"
(Budhoo is referring here to the incessant screaming of starving infants. When they stop screaming, you know that death is near.)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oJzvpfFzIKu76oE1CkzZlarRiVpYIggFMFzSt6OgHx0/mobilebasic
----
"The business of a New York journalist is to distort the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of Mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread, or for what is about the same -- his salary. You know this, and I know it; and what foolery to be toasting an 'Independent Press! We are the tools and vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are jumping-jacks. They pull the string and we dance. Our time, our talents, our lives, our possibilities, are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes." ~John Swinton (1829–1901)
copy, paste, repeat...
Barbara, in recent months you have attacked subscribers who differed with President Biden and or criticized our country. While in the past you were associated with causes that opposed actions by the U.S. government -- not now. You have written comments indicating that at this time you found such 'negativity' almost unpatriotic. I think your position is undemocratic. It is as though you are on a mission to quell dissent. We cannot all be fans as you have become. As much as I am grateful that Biden is our president and impressed by his efforts to improve the lives of many, he is not infallible. Joe Biden is not king. I shall break your rule to say at best, I think you have been overbearing in your zeal.
An old saying I've often heard: when you point your finger at someone in judgement, keep in mind that your other fingers are pointing back toward yourself. A country way of saying projection, and you might think about that, Fern.
While your posts are generally intelligently written, they are not necessarily insightful or deep, and too often get stuck on inconsequential details or simply arguing about who is right, keeping the focus on you and how intelligent you are compared to others. It's tiresome.
Annie, You make it your business to judge people and obviously have a high opinion of your talent or wouldn't feel up to doing it so often. Being on the forum affords you plenty of subjects. You're in the right place Annie, and not pleasant, while you're at it. Salud.
Perhaps you might also need to take issue with all the folks who agree with my posts.
Barbara, Shall I decide that or will you?
Fern, I rarely disagree with you. But I believe Joe Biden said what needed to be said. Everything Biden does to oppose this genocide will anger Putin. Biden is showing leadership. Perhaps if Putin dares to show up at the G20, all the leaders from democracies will turn their backs on him or simply exit the room if he enters.
There is little hope for diplomacy now. There is only carefully applied strength. There are signs that it is working.
It wouldn't be a bad idea for the Russian people to see their leader dissed on the largest international stage. Putin is a pariah and his people should see that.
Actually, have any of us in America learned that you cannot reason with power narcissists? They are incapable of diplomacy, on most levels.
Some of us are learning this, slowly and painfully.
Hear hear!
Good grief, Fern. What is this really all about? Making overmuch of something that isn't all that important. The scales simply do not balance on the amount of energy being put into it. For what? To come out on top? Can we stop this, please?
It's about piling on. One faction piles on another. You must be able to recognize that by now as its become quite a popular sport on this page. And we all play the game here, n'est pas?
Sorry Fern Russians do not get kid gloves.. AND you are right Putin has been out of CONTROL for quite a FEW years......
I don't know how you came to believe I was referring at all to the Russians or suggesting the use of 'kid gloves'. My point is Putin was getting very negative marks and that it was not 'smart', of Biden calling negative attention to himself when the enemy is under klieg lights. The question and answer that I raised is how to speak strategically during wartime and not run your mouth
We are talking about PUTIN so get off the negative remarks.....
Rjs, You referred to Russians. What 'negative' remarks are you talking about? I found fault with Biden's unwise adlib, you disagree. That is fine with me. What are you complaining about?
Hello Fern! I do not think the last line of Biden's speech in Poland changed much of anything. Despite a failing military campaign with egregious losses, the Russians are not serious about a diplomatic solution. To them, Ukraine seems to be Chechnya on a larger scale.
Also, I would be totally gobsmacked if Putin has not assumed that the US/EU have wanted him out for the past 22 years. The invasion of Ukraine, the subjugation of Chechnya, the partial take over of Georgia, are all really aimed at preventing regime change in Russia. Did Biden foolishly touch a sore spot by saying Putin must go? Yes. Will those 9 words change the trajectory of what is happening in Russia, Ukraine, and Europe? No.
Vladimir Putin worries a lot more about his own people than what Joe Biden says or does. He sits in deep paranoia at the end of an endlessly long table, attends banquets but does not eat, drink, or touch anything. You think this man worries about us here in the US? Maybe, but his deepest fear is that Russians figure out who he really is, the Kleptocrat in Chief, the liar, the manipulator, the guy who doesn't care one whit about whether any other Russians live or die. His time will come, and it won't be pretty!
Do you dismiss the motive of revenge? At a time when Putin is mad out of mind because of the military embarrassment in Ukraine, when word of the war is getting out to some Russians and his country's economy is being shut down -- when he seems less invincible -- Joe's mouth gets out of control. Do you ignore the Putin - Trump alliance; Russian's ways on social media; the midterms... do you think Putin's natural instincts have been calmed or excited? On this one Steve, we are not aligned. Have you noticed how fast the administration is running away from it -- to no avail? Biden may have adlibbed, but this is no gaffe; it was lack of control at a price. Let Putin's mistakes fester without bringing negative attention to yourself, Mr. President.
Hi Fern. Putin has done far more damage to Putin than a sentence uttered by Joe Biden ever could. Putin's "natural instincts" have been excited for months. The Russian economy is being dismantled by sanctions. Their military has proven to be a very rusty tiger. The upper and middle management of Russian bureaucracy is made up, by intention, of not very talented people. Once the Russian stock market reopened, the Chinese started to not-so-quietly buy up Russian companies at bargain prices. This is public knowledge. The myth of Putin's "invincibility" has been exposed for lo these many weeks. As for revenge, what, really, can Putin do that is not already in motion? Nukes? Yes, that is why diplomacy is the only realistic way out of this mess. Did Biden's "Putin must go" remark make that more difficult? Yes. Insurmountable? No. Putin already has an unchewable mouthful. Biden's distraction from that fact really does not change anything.
Hi Steve. I appreciate this opportunity for us to elaborate on different points of view. I am sorry that Biden moved the klieg lights that were on Putin to himself. I also think that Biden provided 'them' with propaganda. Biden's line will have no effect on regime change. As I've written Biden diverted attention at a time. He should not be the subject now. In the ways I have suggested, his line did move the needle. It is possible to incite a wild animal to feed the monster's appetite. I cannot join you, Steve, with conclusion nothing happened. I wish it hadn't happened. You did in this comment move a little closer to 'something did happen'. I'm smiling, because we are two of friendliest with different points of view.
Hang in there Fern. I don't like disagreeing with you because you are brilliant. We'll see where and how far the needle moves in the coming days. The world is in a very reactive and distractable place right now. I never thought Biden's remark was nothing, I just don't think it is a game changer.
Steve, I will always 'hang in there', with you. I wasn't joking when I wrote that I appreciated the opportunity to elaborate on our differences of opinion. Most arguments, unfortunately, aren't as friendly as ours. Big smile.
I agree that though his last remark is what most of us are feeling, President Biden saying it took attention away from the body of this speech that was both brilliant and historical. It will be up to the MSM to pull back from the attention they are giving it. The MSM already put trump in office with the unbelievable amount of free press he was afforded. You’d think they’d have learned their lesson that ratings are not worth losing our democracy or inflaming an embarrassed tyrant. Is this me being naive?
Sharon, I wouldn't put this on MSM. I've already seen very qualified people expressing their concern about the line and Biden owns it. Not a 'gaffe' from my point of view but a strategic error of note. I don't think that it can be missed or dismissed. We don't know the consequences, but I'd say the line was regrettable.
I suspect it has not been much of an "embarrassment" for Putin: That is western propaganda spin. Russia's principal initual goal has been to degrade Ukraine's military capability, especially of the Ukrainian right-wing neo-Nazi military formations, and most especially in the Donbass area.
Russia has refrained from wholesale assaults on Jkrainian cities, with the significant exception of Maruipol, where the so-called Azov battalion (regiment) has a fanatic attachment, and where these neo-Nazis have been holding the civilian population hostage.
Oh, are we a minority, Lisa! I don't know if it has anything to do with being in recovery from the former president, but many subscribers seem to me to be oversensitive to any fault found with Biden. It may also have to do with the weakness of democracy in the USA. Do you think, paradoxically, that there is an undemocratic flavor to it? I don't mind being in the minority as it isn't a new experience me. Understandably, it feels good to hear Biden talk tough and express what the people themselves (including me) feel about Putin. It is one thing to have your feelings ratified by the president and for the world to hear but another to speak strategically in war time -- why inflame the enemy when his failure in Ukraine is burning bright under klieg lights. Why take any of that negative attention away from Putin?. My uneasiness is the reluctance of quite a few to even consider that perspective.
I hate to jump in here, but I think it’s more a wartime mentality that any harsh criticism of “our” side provides ammunition to the other side, be that our own home-grown autocratic, anti-democracy Republicans, or Putin and Russia. As I said in another comment, I don’t know if what Biden said was a mistake or not. None of us can truly know that, at least not yet. I think it likely that we’re all at least partly right - the comment can both provide ammunition to Putin and reflect western thinking and not matter very much at the same time. And I completely agree with you that we must support people’s right to make these criticisms. I defend your right to do so, but the fear of weakening our own position by doing so is, I think, not entirely misplaced. Thank goodness we still live somewhere where this kind of political discourse is possible.
KR, I appreciate your thoughtful weighing of our various responses. Thank you. (The second heart is a result of me not being about to open the first.)
KR, thank you.
❤️ KR, I appreciate your thoughtful weighing of our various responses. Thank you.
Trap? Explain
He knew precisely what he was saying. And Biden delivered the line with conviction.
Hi Charlie, Did anyone suggest that Biden didn't know what he was saying or that he lacked conviction? The line was not a 'gaffe' in my opinion and wrote so a few times, I don't understand why you addressed your statement to me, Charlie. What was your point?
Agree, Fern. As powerful a speech as it was, that last line plays right into Putin's hands.
Yes, Laura. My mind has centered on what Putin will do with that line of Biden's so has almost everyone else.
'How Biden sparked a global uproar with nine ad-libbed words about Putin'
'By declaring that the Russian leader ‘cannot remain in power,’ the U.S. president seemed to suggest a drastic change in U.S. policy — prompting a scramble by White House officials.'
“The words of a president matter,” he said more than once. “They can move markets. They can send our brave men and women to war. They can bring peace.”
'They can also, as Biden discovered on Saturday, spark a global uproar in the middle of a war.'
'With nine ad-libbed words at the end of a 27-minute speech, Biden created an unwanted distraction to his otherwise forceful remarks by calling for Russian President Vladimir Putin to be pushed out of office.'
“For God’s sake, this man cannot remain in power,” Biden said.'
'Shortly after the speech, a White House official sought to clarify the comments.
“The president’s point was that Putin cannot be allowed to exercise power over his neighbors or the region. He was not discussing Putin’s power in Russia or regime change,” the official said.'
“The speech was quite remarkable,” said Aaron David Miller, a veteran diplomat and senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. “This is one of those speeches where the one-liner in many ways drowns out the intent of the speech. Because that’s exactly what people are focusing on.”
“What it tells me, and worries me, is that the top team is not thinking about plausible war termination,” said Michael O’Hanlon, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and author of the book “The Art of War in an Age of Peace: U.S. Grand Strategy and Resolute Restraint.”
“If they were, Biden’s head wouldn’t be in a place where he’s saying, ‘Putin must go.’ The only way to get to war termination is to negotiate with this guy,” O’Hanlon said.' (Washington Post) See link below.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/27/russia-ukraine-war-news-putin-live-updates/
Fern, could it be that Bidens comment was a nod to the Russian people to remove Putin from power? Therefore ending the war.
Putin has blocked their access to practically everything. I also don't know if most Russians would be incensed by what Biden said.
Fern, I happen to nudge towards your angle on this. Biden has a history of gaffes. This line plays into our historic knowledge of “Uncle Joe”. I believe it opened a Hugh front to divert attention from the crisis to the MSM entertainment/outrage machine. By saying such a consequential line, at such a pivotal moment in the war, it emboldens all the conspiracists - Putin included- to claim that America has only wanted regime change. And our history with “regime-change” blunders feeds this. It’s a remark that will vibrate a force to split Americans further, and most unfortunately, endanger the fragile solidarity of NATO. All the while Zelensky is passionately criticizing NATO for eloquent words but no muscled effectual help.
Michele, You extended the understanding of how Biden's line interrupted very significant business. I never considered his mouthing this time a 'gaffe' because in my opinion it was more consequential than that. During wartime, to incite the enemy and provide propaganda -- not made up stuff -- but right out there for the world to see -- that is a strategic mistake written large. You pointed to our history of 'regime change'. We're an easy mark on that score. I don't know that it will split NATO, but it is definitely cause for concern. I think TC frequently says, 'It's not easy.' Is it not!
Just want to thank Fern, et al, for the above discussion. I came in late to the thread this Sunday so I am just now getting into it. This back and forth keeps us from being a bubbly echo chamber!!!
I think that you have expressed the democratic spirit, Carol, in favor of robust exchange and a search for the truth. That isn't so easy -- plenty of shades in the mix. This is a very difficult time as we work together in the midst of a tragic, uncalled for war and a wobbly democracy at home. No matter - when I think of the Ukrainian people, I feel good as they have shown us strength as well as sorrow. Too many bad actors around and many more good ones, including the subscribers on the forum. Cheers, Carol, on we go.🌈🌻❤️
Heather Cox Richardson and others may want to consider President Biden's recent speech as a calculated response to President Putin's speech of Feb. 23:
https://sputniknews.com/20220224/putin-authorizes-special-operation-in-donbass-1093318890.html