American power, hard and soft, gives rise to imitation.
Would-be rivals have always been inspired by American exceptionalism.
The racist policies of Hitler and Nazism drew on American ideas and realities. Everywhere, tyrants and would-be tyrants have claimed that Might is Right and, like America, the States they lead are too big to be subject to any Law other than their leader's will.
This comes uncomfortably close to how millions of armed-to-the-teeth individual Americans view what they call "Liberty".
Putin, for one, has always cited America's imperial example in defense of his every action.
"ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL. BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS"
Orwell's derisive slogan says it all.
Every view, every policy that is grounded in exceptionalism, notions of intrinsic inequality, races of masters, races of servants, races unworthy to exist, races above Law, races subject to the power that comes out from the barrel of a gun, is adding many miles to the wrong road. The road that leads to hell on earth.
Such views undermine not only our humanity but the survival of humanity. Not only the survival of humanity, but that of life on the surface of our planet.
By Ishaan Tharoor, with Sammy Westfall, in Today's World View, Washington Post, newsletter
'The U.S. invasion of Iraq, which occurred 20 years ago this week, was seen at the time by critics as both “wholly unjustified” and potentially “brutal” — views that have only become more widespread in the years that followed.'
'The Bush administration sold a false bill of goods to justify its “preemptive” intervention against the regime of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein. Its hunt for Iraq’s supposed weapons of mass destruction proved futile and built on bad intelligence. Its insistence that regime change would bring greater stability to the Middle East proved exactly the opposite, sowing a legacy of instability that would lead to the rise of extremist organizations like the Islamic State and the growing regional influence of Washington nemesis Iran. Its vision for stamping liberal democracy on Iraq proved illusory, with the country consumed by years of political upheaval, parliamentary paralysis and corruption.'
'Iraqis have their own diverse views on the legacy of the U.S. invasion, but some baseline realities are inescapable: Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians were killed in the wake of Saddam’s ouster, their deaths at least indirectly linked to the chaos unleased by the United States. The American conduct of the war also has numerous grim chapters, from the torture chambers of Abu Ghraib to the near destruction of the city of Fallujah.'
'The Iraqi author Sinan Antoon told me this in 2021: “No matter what — and I say this as someone who was opposed to Saddam’s regime since childhood and wrote his first novel about life under dictatorship — had the regime remained in power, tens of thousands of Iraqis would still be alive today, and children in Fallujah would not be born with congenital defects every day.”
'What does this have to do with Ukraine? For months, U.S. and European officials have cast the conflict in Ukraine in stark moral terms. If Putin can succeed with a war of aggression across his borders, the argument has gone, then a dark agenda of territorial conquest and might making right wins out. President Biden has framed the contest as a clash between “all democracies” and Putin’s authoritarian project. Last November, U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin described the collective efforts of Ukraine’s Western allies as a reflection of “how much countries around the world value and respect the rules-based international order.”
'The legacy of Iraq undermines this rhetoric. For many people in the Middle East and elsewhere in the global South, the U.S. invasion is the most glaring recent episode in a long history of Western meddling and U.S. hypocrisy on the world stage. For officials in China and Russia, de facto adversaries of the United States, the Iraq War is an easy precedent to put forward to shoot down Washington’s talking points, no matter how self-serving and cynical that may be.'
“U.S. officials frequently invoke [the rules-based order] when criticizing or making demands of China,” noted Paul Pillar, a veteran former U.S. intelligence officer. “In no way can the offensive war against Iraq be seen as consistent with respect for a rules-based international order, or else the rules involved are strange rules.” (Sorry that gifted link is not available)
Does not all this -- both crime and punishment -- prove that rules are not enough?
Rules are only proof of failure, mere compensations for inadequacy... a fleshless skeleton; scaffolding for the work of first salvaging, then rebuilding better. If we can...
If we can?
We human beings have no choice but to do better. No choice but to achieve the impossible.
Does this not mean aiming beyond what is now seen as impossible?
Only one force can achieve that. A force neither material nor mechanical.
A force beyond naming, therefore I leave this space blank.
[We do have names for this. Only we must reach out beyond names, reach out beyond thinking and saying "the right thing", reach out towards living it.]
Peter, rules are crucial but without upholding them through monitoring and educated populace, they are as you wrote or I would say 'ghosts' that haunt our failure.
Peter “The right thing” in war is determined by the winners. In private life, frequently it is cloaked in religiosity, which, unfortunately, has not been especially pure historically.
Thank you, but has HCR not been showing us how close the losing side has come to conclusively winning the Civil War?
Have we not all seen the resurrection of Nazism and Fascism, which those of us who are old enough to remember WW2 believed to be defeated, dead and buried?
Do we not know how China's skilled Mandarinate transformed the defeat and humiliation of the Empire by barbarians from the borderlands into the means of vast territorial expansion?
There's that Spanish saying, "The defeated are defeated, the victor is lost".
As I write this, I see that the loser in 2020 is at this very moment rallying his troops for yet another attempt to transform his defeat into victory.
Those who burrow into history may now remember such episodes as the Nike riots that came close to overthrowing the Roman Empire or the Taiping rebellion that cost tens of millions of Chinese lives.
Peter I vividly recall the Nuremberg War Crime Trials and the Japanese War Crimes Trials in Tokyo and elsewhere. I have no memory of trials of Allies who violated ‘rules of humanity.’
I recall someone saying “The victors write history.” Of course many years later other might add post scripts. I was a student of both sides’ accounts of the American war in the Philippines 1898-early 1900s. The American military behavior often was despicable. Several of the most despicable officers were decorated and promoted.
We shouldn’t need rules. We break them all the time anyway. We shouldn’t need rules. In the kingdom of old king Cole there would not be enough rules. We could write until the end of time and not have enough rules. We shouldn’t need rules to be who we need to be.
Peter Burnett, the force is love, right? Reach out toward loving and the right actions will come from this. People who love don't lie, don't hurt others, and are energized by chasing after the truth.
I followed the Bush administrations hollow justification of invading Iraq closely and was amazed that Bush was allowed to perpetrate the crime. The aftermath with every aspect of the occupation and destruction of any forms of Governance by Paul Bremer ensured the chaos of a divided religious society.
But trying to use Iraq as a comparison to Ukraine is unfair to both episodes.
Especially telling is the Wests abandonment of the Bush/ Cheney crimes compared to Joe Biden’s reforming of the NATO decision to fully support the elected Government of Ukraine.
I think each war effort is separate and any comparison weakens the obvious justification of defending Democracy against Totalitarian expansion. If there is any viable comparison it is that of Hitler quietly daring the Allies with the occupation of Rhineland and so encouraged began his Eastward expansion.
Art, I think that it is absolutely appropriate to compare the US’s invasion of Iraq with Putin’s war on Ukraine. The US attacked with a false premise for self-interest and greed. The invasion was based on a lie. This country’s moral superiority over Russia looks rather quaint to me on this basis.
PS To compare the US with Russia on this basis does not minimize the culpability of both nor in any way mitigate Putin’s genocidal actions against Ukraine.
I totally didn't agree with how we particiapted in the Iraq conflict (not a declared war). However, the US didn't try to annex Iraq into our country and take over their government (as putin is doing in Ukraine). The plan was to free the people to run themselves. However, that certainly didn't happen. I blame it mostly on the greedy corporations who were managing Bush and getting rich off the whole fiasco.
I don't think the American Public ever got a sensible reason for Iraq, and indications at the time were that -- and I don't think there's been any real clarification since -- it was a "crime of opportunity." The NeoCons were looking for a new Pearl Harbor (i.e. an outrageous attack on the US, which they got with 9/11), to justify a major war somewhere, anywhere. The Pentagon was looking for a reason to exist post-USSR. Peak oil was projected for 2005. Bush was looking for a "legacy." Cheney was looking for power, and God-alone-knows what else.
So it's hard to compare it to anything, without comparing it to everything.
”the US didn’t try to “annex Iraq into our country and take over the government”
Huge difference — Iraq was “never” part of the USA. I hope we can agree that’s not an accurate comparison. Ukraine and Russia’s history are completely different than the USA & Iraq.
Curious if The International Criminal Court has figured out who destroyed the Nord-Stream Pipeline? And just like Putin’s charges, we should all assume whomever was responsible for the pipeline’s destruction would also receive an arrest warrant…yes/no?
My view is that in Iraq the nation was sold the notion that sinister weapons of mass destruction had been developed by Hussein. This translated to nuclear and chemical weapons.
In the wake of 9/11 the plausibility of a threat to America was implicit with delivery not necessarily through military might but terrorist subterfuge.
This is far removed from agreeing to support the pleas of the Democratically elected leader for support of his efforts to stop Russia.
I think remaining silent in the Russian invasion of Crimea was Obama’s biggest error. But aiding a nation from being eradicated by another nation is not the same as invading a nation, destroying its culture and walking away.
Art, Please don’t conflate the comparison of the US invasion of Iraq and Putin’s War on Ukraine with questioning the US’ and NATO’s support for Ukraine. Total support for Ukraine was never in question.
Setting aside Democracy and Totalitarianism, the issue is whether to allow an ally to suffer at the hands of a bully, or to give assistance to that ally to fight off the bully, especially when the bully has additional victims in mind.
Putin wants everyone to agree that someone else’s crime justifies his crime. As everyone’s mother has said, two wrongs don’t make a right. Right (meaning correct), or Right (a moral entitlement.)
Putin and his defenders want the issue to be our hypocrisy, not his actions. Pure distraction technique, Other Things Are Worse (Whataboutism). OK, we are hypocrites. So what?
“In no way can the offensive war against Iraq be seen as consistent with respect for a rules-based international order, or else the rules involved are strange rules.”
Yes. We can definitely, in part, blame ourselves/the USA, for the war of aggression currently being waged by Putin on Ukraine.
After all: George W. Bush role modeled ignoring international law, human rights, the ICC rules, as he invaded both Afghanistan and Iraq.
If we, the USA, are going to role model behavior, well, we, the USA should expect others to emulate that behavior.
Like Putin. Who is emulating George W. Bush at the moment.
It is impossible to "like" this fact unless we hate ourselves and hate America, yet we must accept the truth. Only by accepting the reality of our errors can we learn from them. Only by learning from our errors can we overcome them.
As I have heard in hallowed rooms many times over 28 years: If I am not the problem, there is not solution.
Realizing I am accountable is an act of self love and strength! I can hold two thoughts about the USA at the same time: I love it and we have done and continue to take horrible, cruel actions. I love it enough to want to help prevent our soul-searing mistakes. As we hurt others, we hurt ourselves.
Shamefully, at the present time, the Repubs refuse to accept "the reality of our errors" AND refuse to learn from them. CRT? Woke? Nothing more than pretense that US is completely and absolutely "exceptional"! Perfect!
The metaphor that has always come to me for the far-Right's war against woke is a horrible one: trying to stuff back into an abscess the pus that has oozed forth from it.
Considering how dreadful the almost unending nightmare of oppression has been, one might have expected "woke" reactions to be more extreme.
I was among the millions who marched in an attempt to stop GWB from committing the atrocity we call the Iraq War.
I was listening to the radio (Thom Hartmann on Air America radio) when Shock and Awe hit Baghdad. Just sound because radio, but it was so horrendous that I was on my knees and crying as the bombs rained down on so many innocent people.
SinceTrump is so horrible, we tend to forget the war crimes committed by GW Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Condi Rice, Paul Wolfowitz, etc., but they ruined Iraq and led to so much unnecessary death and destruction!
I did the same! I couldn't believe that the crowds of us ythat marched in Washington and all over the country couldn't force them to stop this travesty, though I been part of the Anti War movement in Vietnam..."when will we ever learn..."
The most awful thing is how many generations may suffer the damage inflicted by actions like these, in Iraq, throughout the region and far beyond it. Without forgetting the effects on those who took part in the assault.
U.S. foreign policy exists in a hall of mirrors of hypocrisy.
Biden has begun sending political refugees back to Russia.
“Immigration advocates were taken by surprise when a young Russian man, who came to the US fleeing Vladimir Putin’s efforts to mobilize citizens to fight in Ukraine, was abruptly deported at the weekend from the US back to Russia.”
FIRST—How do we get this KAFKA IN AMERICA lunacy out into the open from our hole-in-a-corner discussion here and shine bright arc lights on it? How do we make it a national issue—as VOLTAIRE would have done?
Maybe the Guardian's use of the words “BIDEN” and “BIDEN ADMINISTRATION” do just that. The first is manifestly unfair yet points to where the buck ultimately stops; the second is a statement of fact, outrageous fact, showing how the reality of malign bureaucratic idiocy can and does hide in any and every administration, public or private, that is trying to do its job.
Not only in America, in Ukraine and in many European countries too, the horror unleashed by one criminal madman at the head of a vast bureaucratic cobweb has brought hell to ordinary human beings—branded “Russians”—doing their damnedest to escape from the demons and their poisoned trap.
Revulsion at what Russians are doing and have done infects both victims and witnesses with the vile racist plague Putin has unleashed on the world.
Germans and German Jews trying to escape Hitler had to face this—read Auden's Refugee Blues now. Yes. Read it TODAY. https://allpoetry.com/refugee-blues
“Saw a poodle in a jacket fastened with a pin,
Saw a door opened and a cat let in:
But they weren't German Jews, my dear, but they weren't German Jews.”
*
One significant cavil about both the Guardian article AND the crazed bumblings of America's immigration services:
Even if you want to send all Russian refugees back to Putin in a big package tied with a red bow, HOW THE HELL DO YOU PROPOSE TO DO IT?
Russia is sealed off from the rest of the world both on the inside and on the outside. Do you send them to Erdogan's Turkey or to Xi's China—maybe to Tblissi, Georgia—for “Return to Sender”?
Sounds more like labeling them “Stateless” and delivering them to bureaucratic limbos—like the kids escaping with or without parents from their Central American hells, grabbed on Drumpf's orders... then lost in the Ice's labyrinth...
*
Even further down in these cellars far under the main discussions of the day, JL Graham draws attention to KAFKA IN TENNESSEE:
Excuse me, Sir, for repeating your references to ordinary everyday American-as-apple-pie oppression here—but the sorry tale raises one and the same issue: How do we get these gross scandals out into the open?
HOW?
How do we educate the seemingly uneducable, seemingly unreformable officials in our midst and prevent them from committing crimes even greater than those they themselves are paid to prevent?
HOW?
Noting, all the time, that in drawing attention to the endemic diseases of bureaucracy, we shall be feeding the evil propaganda of so-called libertarians, happy to damn all government activity save that which they themselves have instigated for their own nefarious purposes.
"The racist policies of Hitler and Nazism drew on American ideas and realities."
Correct. In particular, the Nazis carefully studied the U.S. Jim Crow laws as part of defining who was a Jew during the building the racist Nazi empire.
However, for the Nazi's, Jim Crow was too harsh. Instead of "one drop of blood" in a relative, like the Jim Crow definition of "Black", Jews were defined as Jews if they had one grandparent that was Jewish.
"The racist policies of Hitler and Nazism drew on American ideas and realities." Before laying all this on the USA, we should remember that the rising and brutal anti semitism of the late 19th and early 20th centuries in eastern and central Europe had nothing to do with American ideas. Eugenics as an ethnically and racially biased concept was widespread across modern nations - Europeans and Americans widely believed in their "inherent superiority" over the races they had either conquered and/or enslaved. What kicked antisemitism into high gear in Germany and elsewhere was the 19th century mass migrations of Jews from Ukraine / Russia thanks to the expansion of the Russian imperial state. Small wonder the Nazis focussed on Poland in the "final solution"... cruel as Jim Crow was, hardly a match for the 12 million murdered or incinerated in the German crematoria. (6 million Jews, and 6 million others)
Without downplaying the horror of the holocaust, it is necessary also to consider that Soviet Russia starved or murdered perhaps twice the number of humans the Nazis murdered; and slavery, Jim Crow and continuing systemic racism in the US has cost many millions of lives as well. None of this grim history means that the US and its allies are wrong to support Ukraine as Putin imitates Stalin.
Any retracing of the roots of evil must be too simplistic, must ultimately be vain. We can only fail in our responsibility, in our duty, if we dwell on attributing blame.
Our best possible look into the past is, at least from my perspective, often very important. In fact, that is why I am reading Dr. Richardson's page every day.
She connects the past to the present to help us better understand the world as it is today.
If we take a pass on condemning that which, in the past, certainly needs to be condemned, then, we might be taking a pass on letting it all happen again.
I am in truth very much with you on this, or we would not be sharing the same reading or engaging in this conversation.
Insistence on NOW does not mean denial of the vast root system of our Now.
I once said to a friend that we need sometimes to go down into our roots, but we cannot live there, without air or light.
Besides, we cannot indulge in killing the tree by uprooting it to examine and analyse all that's hidden from plain sight...
My emphasis on America is entirely an effect of American power now, but when I write of American deeds, misdeeds, ideas and policies, I am never forgetting those of my own or other countries, other people. That should go without saying.
Thoughtfilled discussion for me. Our nation's leaders and policies have not ever been pure ... or consistently right. Impulsive, adhering to the beliefs and grudges of some portion of our people, too often. Yet, some how, despite our impure and too often policies with horrifying loses in live of our nation's sons and daughters, where on the arc do we continue to pursue the good on behalf of humanity or democracy as we propose it? Fern, Peter, Mike, Keith ... your questioning and experiences remind me (us?) of the importance of being critical of tents in light of our history. I think we can do right things, sometimes for the wrong reasons, but can never claim the high ground as defense for trying to do so or as shade for hypocrisy. Thanks to all of you at HCR LFAA. By the way, IMHO, I do see our helping coalesce nation's in defense of Ukraine as one of those right things to do in defense of liberal Western democracy as we know it. Perhaps because I forsee lessons from those democracies as pertinent to our struggles to achieve our aspirations and as a leader (model?) nation among them.
Then we wake up and find ourselves lying there in the filth.
The answer’s dead simple.
STAND UP!
Stand up, look for water, wash, then get on with living.
Yesterday, I used the term “Original Sin” in another context. But there’s no such thing as Original Sin, that’s just a brand for our backsides. A Scarlet Letter to keep us feeling guilty, the better to oppress and control us. When I’ve fallen, the choice is simple: lie there and grovel or rise to my feet as soon as I’m able to.
When the ICC was formed the president was W, who himself could have been indicted for war crimes for attack on Iraq, which of course had neither nukes nor viable biological weapons, was president. Of course the “greatest democracy “ wouldn’t submit its dear leader to an international court.
America’s greatness has passed. We have outrageous inequality, half the wealth owned by less than 1% of the population while children sleep in cars, and the wealthy pay virtually nothing in taxes but buy congress and seats on the Supreme Court, which says of course it’s perfectly legal.
Maybe my cynicism will be ameliorated a bit if Old Teety does a peep walk. On Fifth Avenue would be appropriate.
It's looking like Trump will actually be indicted and arrested this coming Tuesday, so I hope your cynicism will be so ehwt ameliorate.
I do disagree that America's greatness has passed. It seems to me that we have not yet achieved the greatness so many like to claim. I hope to see us move toward it during my lifetime though, admittedly, these times are pretty dark. 😪
Dumpty claims he’ll be arrested. Far from something to bet on, and he won’t be arrested but asked to come in. You might assume he’ll refuse in favor of making a big drama out of it. That is probably a safe bet.
I hope your optimism is warranted. I don’t think humanity has the time for any more glory. I expect more wars, more squabbling over resources and population displacement. 8 billion is far too many humans.
It looks like most, if not all, of the charges against tr... will be misdemeanors, but it might start the cascading effect of all the other cases in line, which can eventually bring that crook down. We can only hope!
Campaign finance violations are misdemeanors. When a crime is committed in furtherance of another crime, it’s a felony. That’s the Bragg case, and the fact that he waited so long to bring it (if indeed he does, as dumpty is braying this morning) seems auspicious. I’m more hopeful about the RICO case in Georgia , which might get Meadows, Giuliani and graham along with others and the fat orange Cheeto himself.
And then there what Jack Smith is pursuing. As a former ICC corruption dragon, I’m optimistic about at the least the documents case, but also the coup case.
Am so disappointed in Garland. He would have made a far better Supreme Court justice, with his careful weighing of matters, than a knight fighting corruption and crime. Imo the worst crime ever committed on American soil.
Not sure, but those children entered our borders on their own volition or with family, rather than being dragged into our country and then "placed for adoption." That doesn't excuse the atrocity, but it is not the same thing. Having said that, our own aggressive history of wars and incursions brings shame to the US, too. It is hard to reconcile that with our own love of country.
Hope, your comment is the first I have read today, and I wish I hadn't. Your "of their own volition" characterization implies that the children of any age are responsible for the consequences of their actions, that these babies should have been aware of the risks they took and cognizant of the unsettled political climate on our side of our border with them.. It smacks of the charge that poor folks are responsible for their condition; worse, that a 10-or-12 year old girl should have known she might be impregnated during rape and should have acted accordingly.
Some children hopped "The Beast" the slow freight train that meanders through Mexico. Usually they are pre-teens or older. I should have said "by their own means." Migration is a problem that is immense, world wide. 100 million people are migrating. Their home countries are corrupt, in war, destitute, and ravaged by climate issues.
As someone who lived in Central America I understand the causes of migration. I am also someone who lived among the very poor and continue to do all in my power to illuminate the causes of poverty. They are horrific. However, once again, unlike the issues of Putin's indictment, no one in this nation entered another country and abducted children to be raised here. I am responding to the original question far above, "Why wasn't Trump also singled out by the ICC?"
The assumption that I am blaming the children who entered the United States is very far off base. Frankly, I hope Trump is indicted right here in this country for his many conscienceless actions.
This country repeatedly entered other nations and abducted children from their families and communities, either to be reared by white families (or used as servants), or placed in schools deliberately located to be difficult or impossible for parents to find. This continued until just a few decades ago. I'm not blaming you: overlooking these events is a convenience imployed throughout America to preserve our sense of privilege. It's easier to admit the wrongs done overseas, it seems.
I really appreciate your reminder, Annie. After 400+ years, the large majority of Americans still want to act like the extermination of millions of Native people and the assimilation efforts and oppression of millions more wasn't an enormous atrocity.
Living as an Anglo in New Mexico the last 20+ yrs., with multiple Pueblo and Hispanic communities nearby, I've slowly learned how blind, brainwashed, and mythologized I was before re: the US's "Westward Expansion". Northern Europeans, and especially English-speakers (my ancestors), had an awesome arrogance and willingness to treat other cultures ruthlessly - for centuries.
These terrible injustices should be taught straight out in our schools. The periodic brutality of tribes to one another should not be skipped either. The depravity of Jim Crow can not be downplayed. But neither should thousands of acts of bravery, kindness, and wisdom by Americans from dozens of backgrounds. It's complicated!!
Most of human history carries tons of cruel baggage. My highest hope is that people - starting right here and right now - will start getting steadily better at squarely facing the evil, remembering those who did very moral and/or inspiring things, and holding all of that at one time.
If that becomes the rule rather than the exception say 50 yrs from now (assuming we've survived), Americans will be repulsed by the idea of repeating things like our Iraq invasion and putting immigrant children in cages.
But there will still be tyrants in the world who want to steal territory for wealth and power, crushing communities in the process. Many nations, working together, will still need to violently stop them. Just without the self-righteousness of "our people have never done such a thing".
I certainly agree, Annie. I hope you realize that I am only referring to the current moment in time; the equivalency of Putin's scheme and genocide with Trump's immigration policy, not this nation's horrific history of slavery, assimilation, and it's own form of genocide.
IMO, Putin deserves every illumination upon his craven criminality. I think I will keep that focus for the time being, while hoping next week sees indictments of Trump, too. Like Putin, the charges may be small potatoes in comparison with a lifetime of depravity, but it's the outcome that matters.
Your point is much clearer with this post, and I adjust my reply in consideration of that. Sometimes what is intended and what is read are misaligned, as in this case. As far as your second part, "no one in this nation" , I hope you are referring to recent history so I don't react as I did previously. History shows us repeatedly that the Overclass, some of whom were formerly Underclass, controls the policies, the financial strength, the direction and the narrative, and as a result place those not in their camp in the Underclass to be dismissed, maligned, treated poorly, and stomped on at every opportunity. We are approaching Dictatorship status in our country, and soon what is left of our middle class will be seriously depleted, to increase the population of lower socio-economic levels. Best if I stop here. Thank you for reiterating your earlier comment.
Well, infants, toddlers, children and adolescents were torn from their family and tossed to the wind. Perhaps go back to WSJ archives and see how many full page ads were ran by various adoption resources. Your last point is well taken. Wars and incursions to support and preserve corporate profits.
Hello? How did you conclude I was blaming the kids? Please note I used the word "atrocity" when referring to Trump's policy. I was saying that unlike Putin, our "dear leader" did not go to another country and devise a scheme for repatriating its children.
Hope, it was simple to come to that conclusion because that is exactly the language you used. Perhaps it would be helpful to admit that you need to be more careful with how you express your thoughts rather than blaming others for "misunderstanding" you.
I think that my response was so far down the line from the opening question, why wasn't Trump indicted by the ICC, that it truly was misunderstood. I also acknowledged that "own volition" should have been "by their own means," i.e. older children.
I strongly reacted to the impression others had that I disregarded the children themselves. I would never do that, Annie. Yes, taken out of context, I can see the misunderstanding that I also had.
I've spent a life-time reaching out to the world's disadvantaged people and I am of the mind that the issue of immigration (far different form Putin's actions) is an immense problem which I hope will see the influx of funding and attention to causes that it needs, desperately.
No. He's simply saying the children entering the United States entered under their own or their parents volition. They came for opportunities not incarceration. The Ukrainian children have literally been kidnapped. They and their parents had no interest in becoming Russian. Many of these children are too young to understand what's happening to them. When they do, they'll be angry.
Some children hopped "The Beast" the slow freight train that meanders through Mexico. Usually they are pre-teens or older. I should have said "by their own means." Zella, you really need to get this, because it is a problem that is immense. World wide, 100 million people are migrating. Their home countries are corrupt, in war, destitute, and or ravaged by climate issues.
As someone who lived in Central America I understand the causes of migration. They are horrific. However, once again, unlike the issues of Putin's indictment, no one in this nation entered another country and abducted children to be raised here. I am responding to the original question far above, "Why wasn't Trump also singled out by the ICC?"
The assumption that I am blaming the children who entered the United States is very far off base. Frankly, I hope Trump is indicted right here in this country for his many conscienceless actions.
Our government, whichever party is in power, has never wanted to be held liable for all of the war crimes that we have committed over the years, so the U.S. has always refused to join the ICC.
The US is not a member of the ICC. Exactly why George W. Bush has not been in jail for the last 20 years after the huge number of war crimes he committed in Afghanistan and Iraq. At least Trump did not machine gun the migrant children like George W. Bush did.
"KABUL - Troops in attack helicopters that belong to the U.S.-led coalition in Afghanistan mistakenly killed nine boys Tuesday with machine-gun and rocket fire as they collected firewood, the international forces acknowledged Wednesday.
U.S. Army Gen. David Petraeus, who heads the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan, ordered all field commanders and helicopter crew members to study their orders again on when coalition aircraft can open fire on people on the ground.
The coalition said it was "deeply sorry" for the error."
Or, torture the kids parents like George W. Bush did:
"Documents popularly known as the Torture Memos came to light a few years later. These documents, prepared in the months leading up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq by the United States Department of Justice, authorized certain "enhanced interrogation techniques" (generally held to involve torture) of foreign detainees. The memoranda also argued that international humanitarian laws, such as the Geneva Conventions, did not apply to American interrogators overseas. Several subsequent U.S. Supreme Court decisions, including Hamdan v. Rumsfeld (2006), have overturned Bush administration policy, ruling that the Geneva Conventions do apply."
Betsy, that's the truth of it! We are blind in many ways, but conscious enough of our own guilt to fear submitting many of our leaders to that jurisdiction
I, too, am very disappointed in HCR for failing to mention that the US does not recognize the ICC, and in fact sanctioned its members for their attempt to hold us accountable for the torture of prisoners at Guantanamo. The issue of the Putin indictment seems an excellent source of insight into war crimes committed by ANY nation.
There's only so much room in these letters. Bush and Guantamo aren't current events. But it probably does explain Bush staying in Texas and painting. He'd be vulnerable to arrest in countries that are signees of the ICC.
Yes there are countries who found members of the George W Bush administration guilty of war crimes in abstentia and there are active arrest warrants to serve if those found guilty travel outside the US to certain areas.
United States participation in the ICC treaty regime would also be unconstitutional because it would allow the trial of U.S. citizens for crimes committed on U.S. soil, which are otherwise entirely within the judicial power of the United States. Actually, dozens of countries are not ICC members, including China, India, Russia, and the United States.
We are also one of a handful of nations who did not join the ban on the use of land mines. These devices are notorious for injuring civilians long after the military combat has ended.
“That the warrant focuses on children is also significant. Of the 123 countries that are parties to the Rome Statute that created the International Criminal Court, 33 are African, 19 are in the Asia-Pacific region, 18 are in Eastern Europe, 28 are in Latin America and the Caribbean, and 25 are in Western Europe and elsewhere.”
“The international assessment that Putin has engaged in war crimes is significant in the United States as well, even though the U.S. is not a signatory to the Rome Statute. “
HCR wrote “ The international assessment that Putin has engaged in war crimes is significant in the United States as well, even though the U.S. is not a signatory to the Rome Statute.”
The U.S. is not part of the ICC. Frankly, I'd be happy if Russia kidnapped Trump, Miller, Meadow, Stone and a dozen others. Relocate them to Siberia, keep them in cages like they kept the little ones at the border.
Thank you. I just subscribed. "Free" is more doable for me, as I am retired on fixed income. I was fascinated at one time by and with Greco-Roman history. Perhaps this has rekindled that interest!
They realise that it's probably pointless. The US is not a member of the ICC, and in a more general sense, is more or less untouchable by the outside world where its internal affairs and policies are concerned.
We get all shame-scaping about the Russian children's relocation program (which I consider an horrific crime) while the Trump Admin farmed out children to "parents" who were not their biological parents. In fairness, for the most part those children have been paired back with their biological parents. Yet, we do not get a "pass".
Why hasn’t the ICC issued an arrest warrant for Trump and his Homeland Security chief for kidnapping migrant children?
EXCEPTIONALISM AS ORIGINAL SIN
American power, hard and soft, gives rise to imitation.
Would-be rivals have always been inspired by American exceptionalism.
The racist policies of Hitler and Nazism drew on American ideas and realities. Everywhere, tyrants and would-be tyrants have claimed that Might is Right and, like America, the States they lead are too big to be subject to any Law other than their leader's will.
This comes uncomfortably close to how millions of armed-to-the-teeth individual Americans view what they call "Liberty".
Putin, for one, has always cited America's imperial example in defense of his every action.
"ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL. BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS"
Orwell's derisive slogan says it all.
Every view, every policy that is grounded in exceptionalism, notions of intrinsic inequality, races of masters, races of servants, races unworthy to exist, races above Law, races subject to the power that comes out from the barrel of a gun, is adding many miles to the wrong road. The road that leads to hell on earth.
Such views undermine not only our humanity but the survival of humanity. Not only the survival of humanity, but that of life on the surface of our planet.
By Ishaan Tharoor, with Sammy Westfall, in Today's World View, Washington Post, newsletter
'The U.S. invasion of Iraq, which occurred 20 years ago this week, was seen at the time by critics as both “wholly unjustified” and potentially “brutal” — views that have only become more widespread in the years that followed.'
'The Bush administration sold a false bill of goods to justify its “preemptive” intervention against the regime of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein. Its hunt for Iraq’s supposed weapons of mass destruction proved futile and built on bad intelligence. Its insistence that regime change would bring greater stability to the Middle East proved exactly the opposite, sowing a legacy of instability that would lead to the rise of extremist organizations like the Islamic State and the growing regional influence of Washington nemesis Iran. Its vision for stamping liberal democracy on Iraq proved illusory, with the country consumed by years of political upheaval, parliamentary paralysis and corruption.'
'Iraqis have their own diverse views on the legacy of the U.S. invasion, but some baseline realities are inescapable: Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians were killed in the wake of Saddam’s ouster, their deaths at least indirectly linked to the chaos unleased by the United States. The American conduct of the war also has numerous grim chapters, from the torture chambers of Abu Ghraib to the near destruction of the city of Fallujah.'
'The Iraqi author Sinan Antoon told me this in 2021: “No matter what — and I say this as someone who was opposed to Saddam’s regime since childhood and wrote his first novel about life under dictatorship — had the regime remained in power, tens of thousands of Iraqis would still be alive today, and children in Fallujah would not be born with congenital defects every day.”
'What does this have to do with Ukraine? For months, U.S. and European officials have cast the conflict in Ukraine in stark moral terms. If Putin can succeed with a war of aggression across his borders, the argument has gone, then a dark agenda of territorial conquest and might making right wins out. President Biden has framed the contest as a clash between “all democracies” and Putin’s authoritarian project. Last November, U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin described the collective efforts of Ukraine’s Western allies as a reflection of “how much countries around the world value and respect the rules-based international order.”
'The legacy of Iraq undermines this rhetoric. For many people in the Middle East and elsewhere in the global South, the U.S. invasion is the most glaring recent episode in a long history of Western meddling and U.S. hypocrisy on the world stage. For officials in China and Russia, de facto adversaries of the United States, the Iraq War is an easy precedent to put forward to shoot down Washington’s talking points, no matter how self-serving and cynical that may be.'
“U.S. officials frequently invoke [the rules-based order] when criticizing or making demands of China,” noted Paul Pillar, a veteran former U.S. intelligence officer. “In no way can the offensive war against Iraq be seen as consistent with respect for a rules-based international order, or else the rules involved are strange rules.” (Sorry that gifted link is not available)
Does not all this -- both crime and punishment -- prove that rules are not enough?
Rules are only proof of failure, mere compensations for inadequacy... a fleshless skeleton; scaffolding for the work of first salvaging, then rebuilding better. If we can...
If we can?
We human beings have no choice but to do better. No choice but to achieve the impossible.
Does this not mean aiming beyond what is now seen as impossible?
Only one force can achieve that. A force neither material nor mechanical.
A force beyond naming, therefore I leave this space blank.
[We do have names for this. Only we must reach out beyond names, reach out beyond thinking and saying "the right thing", reach out towards living it.]
Peter, rules are crucial but without upholding them through monitoring and educated populace, they are as you wrote or I would say 'ghosts' that haunt our failure.
Yes, structure is crucial, order is crucial, foundations are crucial. But, as you make clear, all depends on how we bring life to them.
Thank you for the deeper insight in your last sentence.
Peter “The right thing” in war is determined by the winners. In private life, frequently it is cloaked in religiosity, which, unfortunately, has not been especially pure historically.
Thank you, but has HCR not been showing us how close the losing side has come to conclusively winning the Civil War?
Have we not all seen the resurrection of Nazism and Fascism, which those of us who are old enough to remember WW2 believed to be defeated, dead and buried?
Do we not know how China's skilled Mandarinate transformed the defeat and humiliation of the Empire by barbarians from the borderlands into the means of vast territorial expansion?
There's that Spanish saying, "The defeated are defeated, the victor is lost".
As I write this, I see that the loser in 2020 is at this very moment rallying his troops for yet another attempt to transform his defeat into victory.
Those who burrow into history may now remember such episodes as the Nike riots that came close to overthrowing the Roman Empire or the Taiping rebellion that cost tens of millions of Chinese lives.
Peter I vividly recall the Nuremberg War Crime Trials and the Japanese War Crimes Trials in Tokyo and elsewhere. I have no memory of trials of Allies who violated ‘rules of humanity.’
I recall someone saying “The victors write history.” Of course many years later other might add post scripts. I was a student of both sides’ accounts of the American war in the Philippines 1898-early 1900s. The American military behavior often was despicable. Several of the most despicable officers were decorated and promoted.
Peter, magnificent
Thank you, but no.
Magnificent will be when Americans, having exhausted the entire range of possible errors, learn from them and do the right thing.
And when the world does likewise.
But it is hard enough for individuals to learn from their errors.
We shouldn’t need rules. We break them all the time anyway. We shouldn’t need rules. In the kingdom of old king Cole there would not be enough rules. We could write until the end of time and not have enough rules. We shouldn’t need rules to be who we need to be.
Peter Burnett, the force is love, right? Reach out toward loving and the right actions will come from this. People who love don't lie, don't hurt others, and are energized by chasing after the truth.
I followed the Bush administrations hollow justification of invading Iraq closely and was amazed that Bush was allowed to perpetrate the crime. The aftermath with every aspect of the occupation and destruction of any forms of Governance by Paul Bremer ensured the chaos of a divided religious society.
But trying to use Iraq as a comparison to Ukraine is unfair to both episodes.
Especially telling is the Wests abandonment of the Bush/ Cheney crimes compared to Joe Biden’s reforming of the NATO decision to fully support the elected Government of Ukraine.
I think each war effort is separate and any comparison weakens the obvious justification of defending Democracy against Totalitarian expansion. If there is any viable comparison it is that of Hitler quietly daring the Allies with the occupation of Rhineland and so encouraged began his Eastward expansion.
Art, I think that it is absolutely appropriate to compare the US’s invasion of Iraq with Putin’s war on Ukraine. The US attacked with a false premise for self-interest and greed. The invasion was based on a lie. This country’s moral superiority over Russia looks rather quaint to me on this basis.
PS To compare the US with Russia on this basis does not minimize the culpability of both nor in any way mitigate Putin’s genocidal actions against Ukraine.
I totally didn't agree with how we particiapted in the Iraq conflict (not a declared war). However, the US didn't try to annex Iraq into our country and take over their government (as putin is doing in Ukraine). The plan was to free the people to run themselves. However, that certainly didn't happen. I blame it mostly on the greedy corporations who were managing Bush and getting rich off the whole fiasco.
I don't think the American Public ever got a sensible reason for Iraq, and indications at the time were that -- and I don't think there's been any real clarification since -- it was a "crime of opportunity." The NeoCons were looking for a new Pearl Harbor (i.e. an outrageous attack on the US, which they got with 9/11), to justify a major war somewhere, anywhere. The Pentagon was looking for a reason to exist post-USSR. Peak oil was projected for 2005. Bush was looking for a "legacy." Cheney was looking for power, and God-alone-knows what else.
So it's hard to compare it to anything, without comparing it to everything.
Joyce, the degree to which the US would control Iraq with a win … cannot be thought to be minor.
Dear Joyce —
”the US didn’t try to “annex Iraq into our country and take over the government”
Huge difference — Iraq was “never” part of the USA. I hope we can agree that’s not an accurate comparison. Ukraine and Russia’s history are completely different than the USA & Iraq.
Curious if The International Criminal Court has figured out who destroyed the Nord-Stream Pipeline? And just like Putin’s charges, we should all assume whomever was responsible for the pipeline’s destruction would also receive an arrest warrant…yes/no?
Maybe we could start here…. https://rumble.com/v2c4twd-biden-promising-to-end-the-nord-stream-pipeline.html
My view is that in Iraq the nation was sold the notion that sinister weapons of mass destruction had been developed by Hussein. This translated to nuclear and chemical weapons.
In the wake of 9/11 the plausibility of a threat to America was implicit with delivery not necessarily through military might but terrorist subterfuge.
This is far removed from agreeing to support the pleas of the Democratically elected leader for support of his efforts to stop Russia.
I think remaining silent in the Russian invasion of Crimea was Obama’s biggest error. But aiding a nation from being eradicated by another nation is not the same as invading a nation, destroying its culture and walking away.
Art, Please don’t conflate the comparison of the US invasion of Iraq and Putin’s War on Ukraine with questioning the US’ and NATO’s support for Ukraine. Total support for Ukraine was never in question.
Setting aside Democracy and Totalitarianism, the issue is whether to allow an ally to suffer at the hands of a bully, or to give assistance to that ally to fight off the bully, especially when the bully has additional victims in mind.
Putin wants everyone to agree that someone else’s crime justifies his crime. As everyone’s mother has said, two wrongs don’t make a right. Right (meaning correct), or Right (a moral entitlement.)
Putin and his defenders want the issue to be our hypocrisy, not his actions. Pure distraction technique, Other Things Are Worse (Whataboutism). OK, we are hypocrites. So what?
“In no way can the offensive war against Iraq be seen as consistent with respect for a rules-based international order, or else the rules involved are strange rules.”
Yes. We can definitely, in part, blame ourselves/the USA, for the war of aggression currently being waged by Putin on Ukraine.
After all: George W. Bush role modeled ignoring international law, human rights, the ICC rules, as he invaded both Afghanistan and Iraq.
If we, the USA, are going to role model behavior, well, we, the USA should expect others to emulate that behavior.
Like Putin. Who is emulating George W. Bush at the moment.
It is impossible to "like" this fact unless we hate ourselves and hate America, yet we must accept the truth. Only by accepting the reality of our errors can we learn from them. Only by learning from our errors can we overcome them.
"The truth shall make you free."
As I have heard in hallowed rooms many times over 28 years: If I am not the problem, there is not solution.
Realizing I am accountable is an act of self love and strength! I can hold two thoughts about the USA at the same time: I love it and we have done and continue to take horrible, cruel actions. I love it enough to want to help prevent our soul-searing mistakes. As we hurt others, we hurt ourselves.
Shamefully, at the present time, the Repubs refuse to accept "the reality of our errors" AND refuse to learn from them. CRT? Woke? Nothing more than pretense that US is completely and absolutely "exceptional"! Perfect!
No need to teach any kind of history.
The metaphor that has always come to me for the far-Right's war against woke is a horrible one: trying to stuff back into an abscess the pus that has oozed forth from it.
Considering how dreadful the almost unending nightmare of oppression has been, one might have expected "woke" reactions to be more extreme.
And thus our attention to the history that teaches us, that these letters sparkle with.
What’s not to “like” about the truth?
The truth is sans jingoism, false patriotism or love of “country”.
😊😊
Say amen Brother.
Robert🙏👍
I was among the millions who marched in an attempt to stop GWB from committing the atrocity we call the Iraq War.
I was listening to the radio (Thom Hartmann on Air America radio) when Shock and Awe hit Baghdad. Just sound because radio, but it was so horrendous that I was on my knees and crying as the bombs rained down on so many innocent people.
SinceTrump is so horrible, we tend to forget the war crimes committed by GW Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Condi Rice, Paul Wolfowitz, etc., but they ruined Iraq and led to so much unnecessary death and destruction!
I did the same! I couldn't believe that the crowds of us ythat marched in Washington and all over the country couldn't force them to stop this travesty, though I been part of the Anti War movement in Vietnam..."when will we ever learn..."
Thank you, Cheryl, for the painful reminder.
The most awful thing is how many generations may suffer the damage inflicted by actions like these, in Iraq, throughout the region and far beyond it. Without forgetting the effects on those who took part in the assault.
U.S. foreign policy exists in a hall of mirrors of hypocrisy.
Biden has begun sending political refugees back to Russia.
“Immigration advocates were taken by surprise when a young Russian man, who came to the US fleeing Vladimir Putin’s efforts to mobilize citizens to fight in Ukraine, was abruptly deported at the weekend from the US back to Russia.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/18/biden-administration-russia-deportations
This is horrible! I read the article and am stunned! It makes no sense!
Our immigration policies are a mess! And a lethal mess for all too many people.
What?
Yes - WHAT??
FIRST—How do we get this KAFKA IN AMERICA lunacy out into the open from our hole-in-a-corner discussion here and shine bright arc lights on it? How do we make it a national issue—as VOLTAIRE would have done?
Maybe the Guardian's use of the words “BIDEN” and “BIDEN ADMINISTRATION” do just that. The first is manifestly unfair yet points to where the buck ultimately stops; the second is a statement of fact, outrageous fact, showing how the reality of malign bureaucratic idiocy can and does hide in any and every administration, public or private, that is trying to do its job.
Not only in America, in Ukraine and in many European countries too, the horror unleashed by one criminal madman at the head of a vast bureaucratic cobweb has brought hell to ordinary human beings—branded “Russians”—doing their damnedest to escape from the demons and their poisoned trap.
Revulsion at what Russians are doing and have done infects both victims and witnesses with the vile racist plague Putin has unleashed on the world.
Germans and German Jews trying to escape Hitler had to face this—read Auden's Refugee Blues now. Yes. Read it TODAY. https://allpoetry.com/refugee-blues
“Saw a poodle in a jacket fastened with a pin,
Saw a door opened and a cat let in:
But they weren't German Jews, my dear, but they weren't German Jews.”
*
One significant cavil about both the Guardian article AND the crazed bumblings of America's immigration services:
Even if you want to send all Russian refugees back to Putin in a big package tied with a red bow, HOW THE HELL DO YOU PROPOSE TO DO IT?
Russia is sealed off from the rest of the world both on the inside and on the outside. Do you send them to Erdogan's Turkey or to Xi's China—maybe to Tblissi, Georgia—for “Return to Sender”?
Sounds more like labeling them “Stateless” and delivering them to bureaucratic limbos—like the kids escaping with or without parents from their Central American hells, grabbed on Drumpf's orders... then lost in the Ice's labyrinth...
*
Even further down in these cellars far under the main discussions of the day, JL Graham draws attention to KAFKA IN TENNESSEE:
Mar 18
This "hidden in plain sight major crime against humanity has attracted far, far, too little attention and redress. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/09/trump-administration-family-separation-policy-immigration/670604/
Mar 19
More of the same: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/18/police-stopped-a-couple-in-tennessee-then-they-took-their-children-away
Excuse me, Sir, for repeating your references to ordinary everyday American-as-apple-pie oppression here—but the sorry tale raises one and the same issue: How do we get these gross scandals out into the open?
HOW?
How do we educate the seemingly uneducable, seemingly unreformable officials in our midst and prevent them from committing crimes even greater than those they themselves are paid to prevent?
HOW?
Noting, all the time, that in drawing attention to the endemic diseases of bureaucracy, we shall be feeding the evil propaganda of so-called libertarians, happy to damn all government activity save that which they themselves have instigated for their own nefarious purposes.
"The racist policies of Hitler and Nazism drew on American ideas and realities."
Correct. In particular, the Nazis carefully studied the U.S. Jim Crow laws as part of defining who was a Jew during the building the racist Nazi empire.
However, for the Nazi's, Jim Crow was too harsh. Instead of "one drop of blood" in a relative, like the Jim Crow definition of "Black", Jews were defined as Jews if they had one grandparent that was Jewish.
reference: The 1619 Book Project.
"The racist policies of Hitler and Nazism drew on American ideas and realities." Before laying all this on the USA, we should remember that the rising and brutal anti semitism of the late 19th and early 20th centuries in eastern and central Europe had nothing to do with American ideas. Eugenics as an ethnically and racially biased concept was widespread across modern nations - Europeans and Americans widely believed in their "inherent superiority" over the races they had either conquered and/or enslaved. What kicked antisemitism into high gear in Germany and elsewhere was the 19th century mass migrations of Jews from Ukraine / Russia thanks to the expansion of the Russian imperial state. Small wonder the Nazis focussed on Poland in the "final solution"... cruel as Jim Crow was, hardly a match for the 12 million murdered or incinerated in the German crematoria. (6 million Jews, and 6 million others)
Without downplaying the horror of the holocaust, it is necessary also to consider that Soviet Russia starved or murdered perhaps twice the number of humans the Nazis murdered; and slavery, Jim Crow and continuing systemic racism in the US has cost many millions of lives as well. None of this grim history means that the US and its allies are wrong to support Ukraine as Putin imitates Stalin.
Let us focus on the world as it is now.
Any retracing of the roots of evil must be too simplistic, must ultimately be vain. We can only fail in our responsibility, in our duty, if we dwell on attributing blame.
We must do better or die.
*
Thank you for the reminder.
Peter,
Our best possible look into the past is, at least from my perspective, often very important. In fact, that is why I am reading Dr. Richardson's page every day.
She connects the past to the present to help us better understand the world as it is today.
If we take a pass on condemning that which, in the past, certainly needs to be condemned, then, we might be taking a pass on letting it all happen again.
I am in truth very much with you on this, or we would not be sharing the same reading or engaging in this conversation.
Insistence on NOW does not mean denial of the vast root system of our Now.
I once said to a friend that we need sometimes to go down into our roots, but we cannot live there, without air or light.
Besides, we cannot indulge in killing the tree by uprooting it to examine and analyse all that's hidden from plain sight...
My emphasis on America is entirely an effect of American power now, but when I write of American deeds, misdeeds, ideas and policies, I am never forgetting those of my own or other countries, other people. That should go without saying.
Peter, Mike; your thoughts here are some of the best of the best I’ve read in these letters. Great conversation
Understood and thank you for the amplification.
Thoughtfilled discussion for me. Our nation's leaders and policies have not ever been pure ... or consistently right. Impulsive, adhering to the beliefs and grudges of some portion of our people, too often. Yet, some how, despite our impure and too often policies with horrifying loses in live of our nation's sons and daughters, where on the arc do we continue to pursue the good on behalf of humanity or democracy as we propose it? Fern, Peter, Mike, Keith ... your questioning and experiences remind me (us?) of the importance of being critical of tents in light of our history. I think we can do right things, sometimes for the wrong reasons, but can never claim the high ground as defense for trying to do so or as shade for hypocrisy. Thanks to all of you at HCR LFAA. By the way, IMHO, I do see our helping coalesce nation's in defense of Ukraine as one of those right things to do in defense of liberal Western democracy as we know it. Perhaps because I forsee lessons from those democracies as pertinent to our struggles to achieve our aspirations and as a leader (model?) nation among them.
I like your analogy of root systems and trees. Makes me think.
Frank, we ARE "Bad to the bone!"
No, Emily, that won’t do.
We’ve fallen, we’re KO.
Then we wake up and find ourselves lying there in the filth.
The answer’s dead simple.
STAND UP!
Stand up, look for water, wash, then get on with living.
Yesterday, I used the term “Original Sin” in another context. But there’s no such thing as Original Sin, that’s just a brand for our backsides. A Scarlet Letter to keep us feeling guilty, the better to oppress and control us. When I’ve fallen, the choice is simple: lie there and grovel or rise to my feet as soon as I’m able to.
Great kickass tune
This "hidden in plain sight major crime against humanity has attracted far, far, too little attention and redress. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/09/trump-administration-family-separation-policy-immigration/670604/
More of the same: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/18/police-stopped-a-couple-in-tennessee-then-they-took-their-children-away
When the ICC was formed the president was W, who himself could have been indicted for war crimes for attack on Iraq, which of course had neither nukes nor viable biological weapons, was president. Of course the “greatest democracy “ wouldn’t submit its dear leader to an international court.
America’s greatness has passed. We have outrageous inequality, half the wealth owned by less than 1% of the population while children sleep in cars, and the wealthy pay virtually nothing in taxes but buy congress and seats on the Supreme Court, which says of course it’s perfectly legal.
Maybe my cynicism will be ameliorated a bit if Old Teety does a peep walk. On Fifth Avenue would be appropriate.
It's looking like Trump will actually be indicted and arrested this coming Tuesday, so I hope your cynicism will be so ehwt ameliorate.
I do disagree that America's greatness has passed. It seems to me that we have not yet achieved the greatness so many like to claim. I hope to see us move toward it during my lifetime though, admittedly, these times are pretty dark. 😪
Dumpty claims he’ll be arrested. Far from something to bet on, and he won’t be arrested but asked to come in. You might assume he’ll refuse in favor of making a big drama out of it. That is probably a safe bet.
I hope your optimism is warranted. I don’t think humanity has the time for any more glory. I expect more wars, more squabbling over resources and population displacement. 8 billion is far too many humans.
It looks like most, if not all, of the charges against tr... will be misdemeanors, but it might start the cascading effect of all the other cases in line, which can eventually bring that crook down. We can only hope!
Campaign finance violations are misdemeanors. When a crime is committed in furtherance of another crime, it’s a felony. That’s the Bragg case, and the fact that he waited so long to bring it (if indeed he does, as dumpty is braying this morning) seems auspicious. I’m more hopeful about the RICO case in Georgia , which might get Meadows, Giuliani and graham along with others and the fat orange Cheeto himself.
And then there what Jack Smith is pursuing. As a former ICC corruption dragon, I’m optimistic about at the least the documents case, but also the coup case.
Am so disappointed in Garland. He would have made a far better Supreme Court justice, with his careful weighing of matters, than a knight fighting corruption and crime. Imo the worst crime ever committed on American soil.
Not sure, but those children entered our borders on their own volition or with family, rather than being dragged into our country and then "placed for adoption." That doesn't excuse the atrocity, but it is not the same thing. Having said that, our own aggressive history of wars and incursions brings shame to the US, too. It is hard to reconcile that with our own love of country.
Hope, your comment is the first I have read today, and I wish I hadn't. Your "of their own volition" characterization implies that the children of any age are responsible for the consequences of their actions, that these babies should have been aware of the risks they took and cognizant of the unsettled political climate on our side of our border with them.. It smacks of the charge that poor folks are responsible for their condition; worse, that a 10-or-12 year old girl should have known she might be impregnated during rape and should have acted accordingly.
Thank you Ed. Sometimes you have to point out the obvious. Thank you for doing so in this case.
Please see my comment directly below.
Some children hopped "The Beast" the slow freight train that meanders through Mexico. Usually they are pre-teens or older. I should have said "by their own means." Migration is a problem that is immense, world wide. 100 million people are migrating. Their home countries are corrupt, in war, destitute, and ravaged by climate issues.
As someone who lived in Central America I understand the causes of migration. I am also someone who lived among the very poor and continue to do all in my power to illuminate the causes of poverty. They are horrific. However, once again, unlike the issues of Putin's indictment, no one in this nation entered another country and abducted children to be raised here. I am responding to the original question far above, "Why wasn't Trump also singled out by the ICC?"
The assumption that I am blaming the children who entered the United States is very far off base. Frankly, I hope Trump is indicted right here in this country for his many conscienceless actions.
This country repeatedly entered other nations and abducted children from their families and communities, either to be reared by white families (or used as servants), or placed in schools deliberately located to be difficult or impossible for parents to find. This continued until just a few decades ago. I'm not blaming you: overlooking these events is a convenience imployed throughout America to preserve our sense of privilege. It's easier to admit the wrongs done overseas, it seems.
I really appreciate your reminder, Annie. After 400+ years, the large majority of Americans still want to act like the extermination of millions of Native people and the assimilation efforts and oppression of millions more wasn't an enormous atrocity.
Living as an Anglo in New Mexico the last 20+ yrs., with multiple Pueblo and Hispanic communities nearby, I've slowly learned how blind, brainwashed, and mythologized I was before re: the US's "Westward Expansion". Northern Europeans, and especially English-speakers (my ancestors), had an awesome arrogance and willingness to treat other cultures ruthlessly - for centuries.
These terrible injustices should be taught straight out in our schools. The periodic brutality of tribes to one another should not be skipped either. The depravity of Jim Crow can not be downplayed. But neither should thousands of acts of bravery, kindness, and wisdom by Americans from dozens of backgrounds. It's complicated!!
Most of human history carries tons of cruel baggage. My highest hope is that people - starting right here and right now - will start getting steadily better at squarely facing the evil, remembering those who did very moral and/or inspiring things, and holding all of that at one time.
If that becomes the rule rather than the exception say 50 yrs from now (assuming we've survived), Americans will be repulsed by the idea of repeating things like our Iraq invasion and putting immigrant children in cages.
But there will still be tyrants in the world who want to steal territory for wealth and power, crushing communities in the process. Many nations, working together, will still need to violently stop them. Just without the self-righteousness of "our people have never done such a thing".
I certainly agree, Annie. I hope you realize that I am only referring to the current moment in time; the equivalency of Putin's scheme and genocide with Trump's immigration policy, not this nation's horrific history of slavery, assimilation, and it's own form of genocide.
IMO, Putin deserves every illumination upon his craven criminality. I think I will keep that focus for the time being, while hoping next week sees indictments of Trump, too. Like Putin, the charges may be small potatoes in comparison with a lifetime of depravity, but it's the outcome that matters.
Your point is much clearer with this post, and I adjust my reply in consideration of that. Sometimes what is intended and what is read are misaligned, as in this case. As far as your second part, "no one in this nation" , I hope you are referring to recent history so I don't react as I did previously. History shows us repeatedly that the Overclass, some of whom were formerly Underclass, controls the policies, the financial strength, the direction and the narrative, and as a result place those not in their camp in the Underclass to be dismissed, maligned, treated poorly, and stomped on at every opportunity. We are approaching Dictatorship status in our country, and soon what is left of our middle class will be seriously depleted, to increase the population of lower socio-economic levels. Best if I stop here. Thank you for reiterating your earlier comment.
And thank you for your compassionate response.
Well, infants, toddlers, children and adolescents were torn from their family and tossed to the wind. Perhaps go back to WSJ archives and see how many full page ads were ran by various adoption resources. Your last point is well taken. Wars and incursions to support and preserve corporate profits.
Hello? How did you conclude I was blaming the kids? Please note I used the word "atrocity" when referring to Trump's policy. I was saying that unlike Putin, our "dear leader" did not go to another country and devise a scheme for repatriating its children.
Hope, it was simple to come to that conclusion because that is exactly the language you used. Perhaps it would be helpful to admit that you need to be more careful with how you express your thoughts rather than blaming others for "misunderstanding" you.
I think that my response was so far down the line from the opening question, why wasn't Trump indicted by the ICC, that it truly was misunderstood. I also acknowledged that "own volition" should have been "by their own means," i.e. older children.
I strongly reacted to the impression others had that I disregarded the children themselves. I would never do that, Annie. Yes, taken out of context, I can see the misunderstanding that I also had.
I've spent a life-time reaching out to the world's disadvantaged people and I am of the mind that the issue of immigration (far different form Putin's actions) is an immense problem which I hope will see the influx of funding and attention to causes that it needs, desperately.
No. He's simply saying the children entering the United States entered under their own or their parents volition. They came for opportunities not incarceration. The Ukrainian children have literally been kidnapped. They and their parents had no interest in becoming Russian. Many of these children are too young to understand what's happening to them. When they do, they'll be angry.
Some children hopped "The Beast" the slow freight train that meanders through Mexico. Usually they are pre-teens or older. I should have said "by their own means." Zella, you really need to get this, because it is a problem that is immense. World wide, 100 million people are migrating. Their home countries are corrupt, in war, destitute, and or ravaged by climate issues.
As someone who lived in Central America I understand the causes of migration. They are horrific. However, once again, unlike the issues of Putin's indictment, no one in this nation entered another country and abducted children to be raised here. I am responding to the original question far above, "Why wasn't Trump also singled out by the ICC?"
The assumption that I am blaming the children who entered the United States is very far off base. Frankly, I hope Trump is indicted right here in this country for his many conscienceless actions.
I was wondering exactly the same!
It seems that the US is not a member of the ICC ..."the US does not recognize the court". https://apnews.com/article/icc-putin-war-crimes-ukraine-9857eb68d827340394960eccf0589253
Our government, whichever party is in power, has never wanted to be held liable for all of the war crimes that we have committed over the years, so the U.S. has always refused to join the ICC.
Correct,
The US is not a member of the ICC. Exactly why George W. Bush has not been in jail for the last 20 years after the huge number of war crimes he committed in Afghanistan and Iraq. At least Trump did not machine gun the migrant children like George W. Bush did.
https://www.aba-icc.org/about-the-icc/the-us-icc-relationship/#:~:text=At%20present%20123%20nations%20have,is%20not%20a%20State%20Party.
"KABUL - Troops in attack helicopters that belong to the U.S.-led coalition in Afghanistan mistakenly killed nine boys Tuesday with machine-gun and rocket fire as they collected firewood, the international forces acknowledged Wednesday.
U.S. Army Gen. David Petraeus, who heads the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan, ordered all field commanders and helicopter crew members to study their orders again on when coalition aircraft can open fire on people on the ground.
The coalition said it was "deeply sorry" for the error."
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/world/asia/03afghan.html?unlocked_article_code=2uOxq3Vjk5kEq8PYilLS7qBcuVhJneWc-8UL067B8wC_UdtERY46JNohjNIJ-fktEkb2pWZvhUjMU39_s1F1nfL5R5nUrWdOkvV5dbohElzvw82jo8kNDNEKYx6pCpyyic3OfckSnBe6Z0ZqLcFbg9ZIGiPKdZauMZX4oNN0lRTbEBMMbWeI6oEr5En-rTq2vPO6CLROTPwM5FcoV4W5VHc-WILNqQapiu8AlAOBTioQKILyZir5FzktIQonari8x0eloQaGWnV7m_2-aoadw8lyoen8MSQlEHoyzOA0VhkxPQbTUmg37R6d-EkAxnUQQz9GaOg&smid=share-url
Or, torture the kids parents like George W. Bush did:
"Documents popularly known as the Torture Memos came to light a few years later. These documents, prepared in the months leading up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq by the United States Department of Justice, authorized certain "enhanced interrogation techniques" (generally held to involve torture) of foreign detainees. The memoranda also argued that international humanitarian laws, such as the Geneva Conventions, did not apply to American interrogators overseas. Several subsequent U.S. Supreme Court decisions, including Hamdan v. Rumsfeld (2006), have overturned Bush administration policy, ruling that the Geneva Conventions do apply."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse
Thank you Betsy. I never knew this.
which is why they can never forgive Assange.
Huh…
Betsy, that's the truth of it! We are blind in many ways, but conscious enough of our own guilt to fear submitting many of our leaders to that jurisdiction
That sounds right.
I, too, am very disappointed in HCR for failing to mention that the US does not recognize the ICC, and in fact sanctioned its members for their attempt to hold us accountable for the torture of prisoners at Guantanamo. The issue of the Putin indictment seems an excellent source of insight into war crimes committed by ANY nation.
There's only so much room in these letters. Bush and Guantamo aren't current events. But it probably does explain Bush staying in Texas and painting. He'd be vulnerable to arrest in countries that are signees of the ICC.
Yes there are countries who found members of the George W Bush administration guilty of war crimes in abstentia and there are active arrest warrants to serve if those found guilty travel outside the US to certain areas.
but not the ICC itself, right? I did find Kuala Lampur for one, and it's been considered a mock trial.
did the ICC ever indict Bush? Never heard of it myself.
United States participation in the ICC treaty regime would also be unconstitutional because it would allow the trial of U.S. citizens for crimes committed on U.S. soil, which are otherwise entirely within the judicial power of the United States. Actually, dozens of countries are not ICC members, including China, India, Russia, and the United States.
The U.S. did not sign the Rome Statute.
Well, she *did* mention it: "the U.S. is not a signatory to the Rome Statute."
You’re right, Mike. On my first cup of coffee—missed it.
We are also one of a handful of nations who did not join the ban on the use of land mines. These devices are notorious for injuring civilians long after the military combat has ended.
That still strikes me as one of our greatest humanitarian failures. 😡😓
“That the warrant focuses on children is also significant. Of the 123 countries that are parties to the Rome Statute that created the International Criminal Court, 33 are African, 19 are in the Asia-Pacific region, 18 are in Eastern Europe, 28 are in Latin America and the Caribbean, and 25 are in Western Europe and elsewhere.”
“The international assessment that Putin has engaged in war crimes is significant in the United States as well, even though the U.S. is not a signatory to the Rome Statute. “
Jack, she did mention it.
" ...even though the U.S. is not a signatory to the Rome Statute." She does. Russia does not recognize it.
That’s correct.
Russia doesn’t, either.
HCR wrote “ The international assessment that Putin has engaged in war crimes is significant in the United States as well, even though the U.S. is not a signatory to the Rome Statute.”
It was part of the next section.
The U.S. is not part of the ICC. Frankly, I'd be happy if Russia kidnapped Trump, Miller, Meadow, Stone and a dozen others. Relocate them to Siberia, keep them in cages like they kept the little ones at the border.
Why would they? Trump has been Putin's most successful project.
Thank you. I just subscribed. "Free" is more doable for me, as I am retired on fixed income. I was fascinated at one time by and with Greco-Roman history. Perhaps this has rekindled that interest!
Caveat Emptor.
Buyer beware. Something I should know?
They realise that it's probably pointless. The US is not a member of the ICC, and in a more general sense, is more or less untouchable by the outside world where its internal affairs and policies are concerned.
. . . and Governors Abbot (TX) & DeSantis (FL) for kidnapping migrant adults & children!
We get all shame-scaping about the Russian children's relocation program (which I consider an horrific crime) while the Trump Admin farmed out children to "parents" who were not their biological parents. In fairness, for the most part those children have been paired back with their biological parents. Yet, we do not get a "pass".
When did you have your traitorous epiphany