So, despite the fact that people like Stepien KNOW they are supporting bullshit and testify under oath they supported bullshit they continue to work for candidates who are knowingly spreading bullshit. How can this possibly be legal?
The millions trump raised under false pretenses–isn't that considered wire fraud, mail fraud or some suc…
So, despite the fact that people like Stepien KNOW they are supporting bullshit and testify under oath they supported bullshit they continue to work for candidates who are knowingly spreading bullshit. How can this possibly be legal?
The millions trump raised under false pretenses–isn't that considered wire fraud, mail fraud or some such thing?
Updated: I know wire fraud was brought up in the Letter. As usual, I can't wrap my head around how some people get away with grafting and grafting their entire lives. In reality I know how but sometimes I'm naive enough to think this time they won't get away with it. As Mike S Upstate NY says, rich white men do whatever they want [and get away with it].
I'm sure that journalists will be all over Stepien and Harriet Hageman, the candidate he's serving who's running on the Big Lie. I wonder if she's going to fire him so she can continue to promote that. But now Liz Cheney can use all of this against them. I sure hope she wins.
Me too - but unfortunately (I heard yesterday) she’s apparently behind Hageman in polling by double digits. Because her own party state and local officials keep promoting The Big Lie and Faux News and other right wing media keep throwing Cheney under the bus for her “disloyalty” to TFG. And so people keep believing...
In one sense, Liz is living with the fall out that her father fostered. He helped degrade the gop as much as trump and Gingrich et.al. Now it’s at a point where it could all crash down and she’s trying to clean up the mess. But after that, she’s still Liz Cheney and her policies are her fathers. And we are left having to be thankful she acted like an American? She’s iving with the legacy of weapons of mass destruction. Turns out it was the gop.
Liz might just pull a fast one out of her hat. Her dad, one of the most destructive men of our time, along with Gingrich, yes, has friends who may be propping her up. Your statement about WMD = GOP is absolutely correct.
I was watching Cheney during the hearing just loving her and thought who would have thought Liz Cheney would now be my hero. She normally stands for everything I hate. The world's turned upside down
If their misled voters eliminate Cheney from office, she will continue to be a strong voice against the Big Lie and other corruption in the GOP in other venues. She's now broadly known across the electorate as a champion of integrity and courage. They can't cancel her.
Grace, yes I heard that as well. It doesn't sound like she has any chance in winning. We'll, this has to be the first time I have ever lamented about a Republican losing. 😆
The voters are aware of the Big Lie. They don't care. This their moment. They will hurt themselves to stick it to the elites. trump gave them a voice (which was a brilliant marketing move on his part). They will not stop giving him money and they will not stop hating every single thing about her as much as people hate every single thing about trump.
The divide in this Country may be permanent. Time will tell.
You're probably right, but for some reason I am still rooting for the "City on the hill" America, the "Beacon of hope" America , the "New Jerusalem" that is the America I was raised to believe in. It is the Democracy my father fought in two wars for. It seems like these ideals may have just been reduced to sentimentalism now but I still believe that these dreams can still be our "Beacon of hope" that lights our way once again.
Yes, it is indeed wire fraud per attorney Laurence Tribe whose Tweet Heather shared:
“Actually, @RepZoeLofgren, somebody has decided: Congress criminalized wire fraud long ago. 18 USC 1343. DOJ will need to decide whether Trump's conduct in violation of sec 1343 was excusable because, well, because he was above the law. But weren't we told NO-ONE is above the law?”
If the DOJ doesn’t nail tfg for leading an  insurrection, let’s hope they nail him and his cohorts for wire fraud.
If any of @RepZoeLofgren 's constituents who are age 65 or older were solicited to donate to a non-existent entity, that could be criminal elder abuse under California law. I know a fraudulent solicitation is enough to require a mandated reporter to report suspected elder abuse to the California Attorney General's office. But I'm not an attorney like Congresswoman Lofgren and @RepAdamSchiff and don't know if a small donation is needed to prove it.
Wouldn’t that be something if the California Attorney General’s office opened an investigation of elder abuse?! There’s no question in my mind that many in the 65+ crowd have been pouring money into tfg’s coffers. And in many cases, it was money they could ill afford to lose. 😡
Convicting trump of wire fraud for this particular grift would have to overcome the fact that all those emails included small print saying the money would go to trump’s ‘save America PAC’, which it did.
He’s certainly very successful at cheating people, until he’s not, and then he finds someone else to cheat. He was about to go under financially - no bank in NY would do business with him, and he had squandered his inheritance - when the Kremlin stepped in and backstopped a loan from DeutscheBank. International money laundering saved his financial assets. Is it cleverness to sell yourself to Vladimir Putin?
Yesterday I was stopped behind a car that had a "Save American Again" bumper sticker sitting just inside the back window. Wondered about it bcz I hadn't see that phrase previously. Wonder if I was behind one of the grifted.
Unfortunately, all of the proposed lawsuits will still be floating around the courts long after Trump is dead and buried--all paid for by the very funds he illegally solicited.
Trump spent his entire life doing things every day that someone subsequently asked:
"How can this be legal?"
One example: In Atlantic City, Trump hired thousands of small business contractors to build a casino. Thousands of toilets were installed, sinks, floors, walls, windows......with small contractors.
Then, Trump managed that casino into the ground even though his own Dad poured his own money into to it.
At no time did Trump ever even slightly show any sign of paying all of the contractors that had built the casino.
In fact, he declared bankruptcy, which, in Israel or Germany or in early America, would have put him in jail.
Thousands of small contractors went under because most of their work for years had been at the casino. Trump never paid them a dime.
But, in today's America where rich, white men have written 100% of the laws since inception?
Trump has never gone to jail.
So, basically, the answer to your question is: This is America my friend.
Mike, thank you for pointing out the fact that tfg has so far slithered away from that specific grift. Those facts were known before he won his first election, along with a host of others. Are we too optimistic that somewhere along the line he will pay? Or was he right about his Fifth Avenue brag?
If the duty of the government and those who represent us (one way or another) is to serve us, and we can in some cases be prosecuted for lying to the government, why are those who work in government held accountable (at least when it matters) for lying to us? To err is human, but actual lies are a choice, and sometimes a choice that can be proved.
Some lies can kill, in wars, in racial violence, with COVID, etc.
Correct Daria , Fraud in the Inducement. Calling on New Jersey LFAA Commenters to provide background on Bill Sepien's days in New Jersey during the infamous "Bridgegate" fiasco. I recall Steve Kornacki was already a top notch political reporter in NJ back then before he was scooped up by MSNBC. Update: Per the Guardian's Adam Gabbatt on 7/16/20, "In 2014 [Sepien) was publicly named & shamed by New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie ..." for his active role in New Jersey's "Bridgegate" i.e. his role in inflicting human suffering. Per LA TImes' Mat Pearce, 1/8/14, in the purposely inflicted bridge back-up, paramedics were delayed in reaching an "unconscious 91 year old woman from Ft. Lee, New Jersey." No post-mortem to my knowledge.
Testifying under oath we finally learn what was always whispered and known. Lying to the American People for political gain is “business as usual”. Yesterday’s testimony made me realize I need to look at the whole trump whorl best through the Lens of THE GRIFT. He conned the system on a larger scale than he had for decades, but it is still the same grift. My greatest hope is that through these revelations under oath, many of his supporters begin to see they were used. I know many of them will deny it to the grave because it shows them to be such fools. But there are others who may snap out of the cult-think grip they are in. Then what? I’m not sure. They will still hate Dems no matter what. That’s their Brand.
Totally agree with you Daria! trump has committed so many blatant crimes it is troubling he has not been arrested. And, what is also very disturbing is the rat packs that still are out there! "Nonetheless, leading Republicans are willing to embrace the Big Lie in order to skew our election system to keep those like Trump in power."
George Conway is thinking it could be. Hoffa wasn't convicted of his crimes against people but he was convicted of fraud and jury tampering. Here is an article on the fraud case.
Daria, I love sensing that your outrage is palpable. As for the sinister alliance between Stepien and Hageman, aside from donating to Cheney’s campaign, I’m seriously considering seeking out groups in her district that support her candidacy and doing all I can to support their work.
He’s like the Pied Piper. His base is too enamored with him to believe that he would dupe them. I mean, how could he? He’s their messiah they’ve been waiting for all of their lives…to arise from the ashes.
Septian, not an impressive witness! Failed public speaking 101 as evidenced by repeated verbal pause between sentence fragments! Did dopey Don ever pay him?
We aren't grading on public speaking skills. The frequent verbal pauses were most likely measuring his words under oath. This guy was trump's Campaign Manager. He is working very hard not to be culpable.
Not aware of such ‘hit man’ incidences. Like his abuse of Rex Tillerson while holding the title of Sec of State, tfg was in fact the sec of state undermining NATO and the European Union as per instructions from Putin! Septian May have had the title of campaign manager, but NoOne manages dopey don!
So, despite the fact that people like Stepien KNOW they are supporting bullshit and testify under oath they supported bullshit they continue to work for candidates who are knowingly spreading bullshit. How can this possibly be legal?
The millions trump raised under false pretenses–isn't that considered wire fraud, mail fraud or some such thing?
Updated: I know wire fraud was brought up in the Letter. As usual, I can't wrap my head around how some people get away with grafting and grafting their entire lives. In reality I know how but sometimes I'm naive enough to think this time they won't get away with it. As Mike S Upstate NY says, rich white men do whatever they want [and get away with it].
I'm sure that journalists will be all over Stepien and Harriet Hageman, the candidate he's serving who's running on the Big Lie. I wonder if she's going to fire him so she can continue to promote that. But now Liz Cheney can use all of this against them. I sure hope she wins.
Me too!
Me too - but unfortunately (I heard yesterday) she’s apparently behind Hageman in polling by double digits. Because her own party state and local officials keep promoting The Big Lie and Faux News and other right wing media keep throwing Cheney under the bus for her “disloyalty” to TFG. And so people keep believing...
In one sense, Liz is living with the fall out that her father fostered. He helped degrade the gop as much as trump and Gingrich et.al. Now it’s at a point where it could all crash down and she’s trying to clean up the mess. But after that, she’s still Liz Cheney and her policies are her fathers. And we are left having to be thankful she acted like an American? She’s iving with the legacy of weapons of mass destruction. Turns out it was the gop.
Liz might just pull a fast one out of her hat. Her dad, one of the most destructive men of our time, along with Gingrich, yes, has friends who may be propping her up. Your statement about WMD = GOP is absolutely correct.
I despise her politics, but have some hope since she changed her position on LGBQT rights last year (for her sister).
I despise her politics too. She did change her mind but not about voting for the Equality Act. See the last paragraph. https://www.npr.org/2021/09/27/1040856038/liz-cheney-says-she-was-wrong-in-opposing-same-sex-marriage
I was watching Cheney during the hearing just loving her and thought who would have thought Liz Cheney would now be my hero. She normally stands for everything I hate. The world's turned upside down
The question of our time, And I thought that was as low as repubs could go.
Can anybody shut Rupert up? That has always been the question…
YES to this, Jeri. It’s what I keep saying now. Down with Faux “News”!!
Only if he and his ilk are deported.
Not even then - the devils have to be "departed."
If their misled voters eliminate Cheney from office, she will continue to be a strong voice against the Big Lie and other corruption in the GOP in other venues. She's now broadly known across the electorate as a champion of integrity and courage. They can't cancel her.
My hope is she launches "The Big Split" in the Republican party.
Grace, yes I heard that as well. It doesn't sound like she has any chance in winning. We'll, this has to be the first time I have ever lamented about a Republican losing. 😆
She's like 30 pts down.
But Cheney has huge financial backing. What’s that Cajun phrase?
I hope you are correct. My faith is the MSM media - in terms of "telling both sides of the story - is dismal.
Nothing of the sort will happen. The Big Lie mentality is too embedded as a superfluous fact in our National Politics. It will be politics as usual.
The voters are aware of the Big Lie. They don't care. This their moment. They will hurt themselves to stick it to the elites. trump gave them a voice (which was a brilliant marketing move on his part). They will not stop giving him money and they will not stop hating every single thing about her as much as people hate every single thing about trump.
The divide in this Country may be permanent. Time will tell.
Oh my!
You're probably right, but for some reason I am still rooting for the "City on the hill" America, the "Beacon of hope" America , the "New Jerusalem" that is the America I was raised to believe in. It is the Democracy my father fought in two wars for. It seems like these ideals may have just been reduced to sentimentalism now but I still believe that these dreams can still be our "Beacon of hope" that lights our way once again.
That doesn't mean we give up! This is who and what we are dealing with. I am with you. We fight.
Yes, it is indeed wire fraud per attorney Laurence Tribe whose Tweet Heather shared:
“Actually, @RepZoeLofgren, somebody has decided: Congress criminalized wire fraud long ago. 18 USC 1343. DOJ will need to decide whether Trump's conduct in violation of sec 1343 was excusable because, well, because he was above the law. But weren't we told NO-ONE is above the law?”
If the DOJ doesn’t nail tfg for leading an  insurrection, let’s hope they nail him and his cohorts for wire fraud.
If any of @RepZoeLofgren 's constituents who are age 65 or older were solicited to donate to a non-existent entity, that could be criminal elder abuse under California law. I know a fraudulent solicitation is enough to require a mandated reporter to report suspected elder abuse to the California Attorney General's office. But I'm not an attorney like Congresswoman Lofgren and @RepAdamSchiff and don't know if a small donation is needed to prove it.
Wouldn’t that be something if the California Attorney General’s office opened an investigation of elder abuse?! There’s no question in my mind that many in the 65+ crowd have been pouring money into tfg’s coffers. And in many cases, it was money they could ill afford to lose. 😡
But gave willingly, even knowing the truth.
Jeri, willingly yes. Accepting it , no. You are right.
Wire fraud is cleanest indictment.
Well, that's interesting!
all we need to keep in mind they didn't convict Capone of murder, but of tax evasion, small justice for those he murdered, but it worked
Convicting trump of wire fraud for this particular grift would have to overcome the fact that all those emails included small print saying the money would go to trump’s ‘save America PAC’, which it did.
Exactly. This was a well thought out con. I may add, it's still going on. I received another request this morning.
Ugh!
Marlene, it's as if these hearings aren't happening
But they are, Linda, and we have to keep that in mind. Garland and his prosecutors are watchimg.
TFG is diabolically clever. He's been grifting like this all his life. And getting away with it. So far.
He’s certainly very successful at cheating people, until he’s not, and then he finds someone else to cheat. He was about to go under financially - no bank in NY would do business with him, and he had squandered his inheritance - when the Kremlin stepped in and backstopped a loan from DeutscheBank. International money laundering saved his financial assets. Is it cleverness to sell yourself to Vladimir Putin?
Yesterday I was stopped behind a car that had a "Save American Again" bumper sticker sitting just inside the back window. Wondered about it bcz I hadn't see that phrase previously. Wonder if I was behind one of the grifted.
Judith, yes it's Trumps 2024 slogan. With an outrageous "donation" he was giving these to donors, I mean stooges.
It's a trump in 2024 slogan.
Looks like wire fraud---maybe it will bring a few people down. Al Capone was sent to prison for tax evasion.
I hope so G, I truly do.
Unfortunately, all of the proposed lawsuits will still be floating around the courts long after Trump is dead and buried--all paid for by the very funds he illegally solicited.
I think he spends it as he gets it.
So do I…on paying his attorneys.
I understand that he sometimes doesn't pay his attorneys.
Besides, unless you've heard otherwise, he doesn't need to because the RNC has taken on paying his legal fees.
daria,
"How can this possibly be legal?"
Trump spent his entire life doing things every day that someone subsequently asked:
"How can this be legal?"
One example: In Atlantic City, Trump hired thousands of small business contractors to build a casino. Thousands of toilets were installed, sinks, floors, walls, windows......with small contractors.
Then, Trump managed that casino into the ground even though his own Dad poured his own money into to it.
At no time did Trump ever even slightly show any sign of paying all of the contractors that had built the casino.
In fact, he declared bankruptcy, which, in Israel or Germany or in early America, would have put him in jail.
Thousands of small contractors went under because most of their work for years had been at the casino. Trump never paid them a dime.
But, in today's America where rich, white men have written 100% of the laws since inception?
Trump has never gone to jail.
So, basically, the answer to your question is: This is America my friend.
Rich, white men can do whatever they want.
Mike, thank you for pointing out the fact that tfg has so far slithered away from that specific grift. Those facts were known before he won his first election, along with a host of others. Are we too optimistic that somewhere along the line he will pay? Or was he right about his Fifth Avenue brag?
And tRump knows it, and brags about it.
Mike, trump lives by the motto, "Rich white men can do whatever they want".
So it is being demonstrated
If the duty of the government and those who represent us (one way or another) is to serve us, and we can in some cases be prosecuted for lying to the government, why are those who work in government held accountable (at least when it matters) for lying to us? To err is human, but actual lies are a choice, and sometimes a choice that can be proved.
Some lies can kill, in wars, in racial violence, with COVID, etc.
sorry, Not held accountable.
Correct Daria , Fraud in the Inducement. Calling on New Jersey LFAA Commenters to provide background on Bill Sepien's days in New Jersey during the infamous "Bridgegate" fiasco. I recall Steve Kornacki was already a top notch political reporter in NJ back then before he was scooped up by MSNBC. Update: Per the Guardian's Adam Gabbatt on 7/16/20, "In 2014 [Sepien) was publicly named & shamed by New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie ..." for his active role in New Jersey's "Bridgegate" i.e. his role in inflicting human suffering. Per LA TImes' Mat Pearce, 1/8/14, in the purposely inflicted bridge back-up, paramedics were delayed in reaching an "unconscious 91 year old woman from Ft. Lee, New Jersey." No post-mortem to my knowledge.
So really, Stepien has always been about lies big and small.
"Went into labor?"
Named and shamed by Chris Christie?? Ha! That's rich.....
Deflecting when he thought he might run against tfg.
Spreading bullshit is allowed for the same reason Fox News is allowed to continue- money. Follow the money, always.
Yes, yes, this is what I was saying earlier. They knew and did nothing . . .
Testifying under oath we finally learn what was always whispered and known. Lying to the American People for political gain is “business as usual”. Yesterday’s testimony made me realize I need to look at the whole trump whorl best through the Lens of THE GRIFT. He conned the system on a larger scale than he had for decades, but it is still the same grift. My greatest hope is that through these revelations under oath, many of his supporters begin to see they were used. I know many of them will deny it to the grave because it shows them to be such fools. But there are others who may snap out of the cult-think grip they are in. Then what? I’m not sure. They will still hate Dems no matter what. That’s their Brand.
Totally agree with you Daria! trump has committed so many blatant crimes it is troubling he has not been arrested. And, what is also very disturbing is the rat packs that still are out there! "Nonetheless, leading Republicans are willing to embrace the Big Lie in order to skew our election system to keep those like Trump in power."
George Conway is thinking it could be. Hoffa wasn't convicted of his crimes against people but he was convicted of fraud and jury tampering. Here is an article on the fraud case.
https://www.nytimes.com/1964/07/27/archives/hoffa-convicted-on-use-of-funds-faces-20-years-he-and-6-others-are.html#:~:text=HOFFA%20CONVICTED%20ON%20USE%20OF%20FUNDS%3B%20FACES%2020%20YEARS%3B%20He%20and%206%20Others%20Are%20Guilty%20of%20Fraud%20and%20Conspiracy%20With%20Teamster%20Pensions
Daria, I love sensing that your outrage is palpable. As for the sinister alliance between Stepien and Hageman, aside from donating to Cheney’s campaign, I’m seriously considering seeking out groups in her district that support her candidacy and doing all I can to support their work.
Barbara, I am absolutely in synch with you.
I was just trying to figure out the same thing Daria
Karen, how brazen he is and his base loves it.
He’s like the Pied Piper. His base is too enamored with him to believe that he would dupe them. I mean, how could he? He’s their messiah they’ve been waiting for all of their lives…to arise from the ashes.
Septian, not an impressive witness! Failed public speaking 101 as evidenced by repeated verbal pause between sentence fragments! Did dopey Don ever pay him?
We aren't grading on public speaking skills. The frequent verbal pauses were most likely measuring his words under oath. This guy was trump's Campaign Manager. He is working very hard not to be culpable.
True, but his constant use of "you know" was maddening.
Yes. But it was a "convincing technique." It's a way of getting buy in.
Interesting. I've never considered it that way.
I've known folks in Sales. They learn all kinds of techniques. A campaign manager is the ultimate sales manager in my opinion.
I do not know Louis, but tfg certainly liked his Roy Cohn, hit man style.
Not aware of such ‘hit man’ incidences. Like his abuse of Rex Tillerson while holding the title of Sec of State, tfg was in fact the sec of state undermining NATO and the European Union as per instructions from Putin! Septian May have had the title of campaign manager, but NoOne manages dopey don!
❤️
He needs Toastmasters to whip him into shape.