How does this work? Every attorney takes an unconditional oath to support the Constitution. I do not think there are exclusions for insurrections either. The oaths may vary by state except with support for the constitution. Pence is an attorney. His attorney Greg Jacob writing a three-page letter (redundant alert) is an attorney. Greg is…
How does this work? Every attorney takes an unconditional oath to support the Constitution. I do not think there are exclusions for insurrections either. The oaths may vary by state except with support for the constitution. Pence is an attorney. His attorney Greg Jacob writing a three-page letter (redundant alert) is an attorney. Greg is writing about what the "president and his supporters were demanding Pence do the next day would break the 1887 Electoral College Act." Really? John Eastman is an attorney. Most of Congress are attorneys. They all swore oaths to support the constitution.
Seems to me we can hold a mass disbarment of those who failed to take action in warning people of the insurrection on the 6th (Pence and Jacob) and those who were silent. The committee already has the evidence. These people need to experience what the inside of a jail cell looks like.
Why are there exceptions for these critters while the insurrectionists who showed up on the 6th are being dealt with in courts and jail cells. Why do they get a by? In comparison, these people are worse than the insurrectionists. They knew, sat back, and "let" it all happen.
Law school, the Bar exams ... much of it is a haze, but I recall taking the Oath like it was yesterday. Members of Congress swore another Oath when they took office.
There was a time when an Oath meant something - people were held to account if they violated it.
It still means something the same as the oath I took to enter the Marine Corps in 68 and later as an NCO. There was no ignoring it or writing a letter. I would have gone to the Brig like so many I took there for disobeying their oath.
They should be jailed or charged just like the insurrectionists attacking the capitol. It is not an idea, it is a fact.
Attorneys are not protected from the law. They incited a riot. They failed to warn authorities. They n should be disbarred also. Their is no freedom from an oath,
His brother Charles was part of this too, and he holds a command post in the Navy. We must try to get all of them we possibly can. Bag 'em, tag 'em, and ship them to Gitmo for an extended, offline vacation.
I, too, swore an oath, and as one who holds a retired commission card, I still uphold it. Those are not just words you mouth as you raise your right had and swear, to the best of your ability, to (whatever version of "protect and defend the Constitution of the United States to the best of my ability" your particular oath held; mine also included "keep my private life unsullied, and to obey the laws of the land") but it is a promise to do just that. Apparently, an oath means nothing to some people. Not to me.
Ah, but remember, these people interpret the Constitution in their "own" way, twisting meanings to suit their warped views that many of us cannot agree with or understand the thought process behind. Similar to the supposed "originalist" judges who band together for their backwards viewpoints.
The oath they took says they will support the constitution, not interpret it to suit their individual beliefs. Upon enlisting or being drafted, the oath I took:
"I, (name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same . . . "
There is nothing there which says I can interpret it differently. The oath is different than the Constitution. Court may interpret it differently, this we know. This court is made up of "originalists." I believe they would hold to the same words even though law is interpretive. The oath is not law even though it is assertion. I would call it a rule.
I was bound by the UCMJ. If there was nothing in the UCMJ which covered an issue, there was always Article 38 which was called the "Captain's Cloak," which covered anything unspecified. This is outside of the topic.
I still believe many of those you mention will eventually be prosecuted. Some also may well be disbarred.
In large conspiracy cases like this one, the I vestigations are long and deep. They build from the bottom up, so the footsoldiers always get arrested first. Some will probably flip and give evidence against those further up the chain of command.
We have no guarantee, but the Committee cannot prosecute. It is laying out the evidence.
DOJ is, slowly, it seems, beginning to move up the chain. Wewill get there.
We must get there! If not, we may well lose our country in the next coup attempt.
The next 'attempt' is already well under way. Armed poll watchers? Ongoing tampering with election infrastructure, and democratic majorities being ruled by an illegitimate minority.
Apparently, they see the Constitution as an ink blot which affords them the freedom to interpret it anyway they choose. If so, their interpretation provides us with a roadmap to a diagnosis (charge) and treatment (punishment). Let’s get on with it.
I don’t see it that way. He did nothing to ”decide” not to be a traitor until he consulted with others who warned and counseled him. I remember thinking at the time….he had to be convinced? Please. He is a minion.
An attorney does not commit a crime by breaking her/his oath of admission to the bar, but bar discipline up to disbarment is possible. In the case of those who participated actively in T___p’s attempt to overthrow the Constitution, I expect that a number of them will become cooperating witnesses for the prosecutions that I devoutly hope are coming down the road. Most of those will probably escape prosecution, but they may well loses their law licenses, viz. John Dean.
Bill, the image of a mass disbarment is in the realm of spectacular disbelief - - it would be a perfect summation of the preamble of the constitution. Is it more movie than reality? Leave it to Spike Lee or Quentin Tarantino? I would rather see it live at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C.
Great sermon! I like your mass disbarment idea. Besides lawyers taking an oath to support the Constitution, I am pretty sure all Congressional members must take this type of oath too. That would also include the POTUS. Whether or not these Republicans who were involved in this believe in the Big Lie or not, their fealty is to their constituents. How can these people honestly represent said constituents when they believe(?) that Trump is still POTUS?
Oaths obviously depend on the character and integrity of the person taking the oath. Oaths are sacred, as they should be, to those responding here. As we have seen throughout the last 5 years, with impeachment hearings as a glaring example, many of our elected officials have neither character nor integrity. They take an oath and hire a lawyer.
If only we paid attention to character and integrity, in addition to platform, as we cast our ballots.
Mitch McConnell is the poster child for this problem. He took the oath; voted against impeachment; publicly admitted Trump’s crimes; said he would vote for him again.
Well said, and precisely what we have all been feeling for months as The Coup II is well under way. We can't permit them to cheat us, lie to us and steal from us anymore.
Oath only lasted as long as they were employed (paid, toted). Moved on once they revised their resumes to appear that they were innocent bystanders/objectors. Reborn honorable. Never knew about the camps. Sad.
This isn't an original thought, it's been expressed before, but seriously the Republican Party could have gotten rid of this goiter on the side of their necks during the last impeachment trial. I don't know how this will end, I am sure the R's will win the majority in the House of Representatives, and of course the investigation at the congressional level will end. And the Trump stain will remain with the Republican Party only in history books. Really sad thing is, it does prove that justice is not handed out evenly or equally. Elections going forward will be under a cloud. There is for the first time in my 68 years a feeling our 'Great Experiment' might be coming to an end. All because of one man's incredible ego, and his ability to take advantage of those who think tribally, forgetting the meaning of the pledge to the flag we all have made countless times: .......indivisable, with liberty and justice for all.
Are you 68 years old or did you not count when you were young? I am 73 and have seen a lot in my 40-something years of working. I sometimes believe I walked uphill both ways to get to where I am today. I was in the Corps at 19 in 68 and that was old in many respects. I had worked with my dad as a laborer when I was 16 till I was 18 and than full time at 18. Those was some tough critters. Boilermakers for lunch and back to the scaffolds many flors up.
Do you remember 2007/8 when Wall Street blew up the economy and Main Street was hammered? We paid a horrendous price for Wall Street and banks gambling with CDS/naked CDS with no reserves or pennies on the dollar. Banks were doing liar mortgages. People lied able income and assets and banks did not checking on the reality of them. Goldman Sachs called in on their CDS which AIG owned. AIG did not have enough cash. The Fed (pretty sure stepped in).
Obama passed the ARRA which was opposed by Republicans. Much of it got through but it was cut, not targeted correctly, and people whined about the debt and people being unemployed longer than expected. He wasn't a failure, he was a Black President stymied by Repubs for political and personal reasons.
Fast forward to 2020, Biden gets into office in spite of Repubs failing to fight an insurrection before it happened. They own this and they are jut s bad as those at the capitol on the 6th, There is no excuse for them or anyone else associated with trump not ratting on this to authorities.
I hold Bidden responsible for student loan issues. He may have learned the lessons from 2008. Everything he did to stimulate the economy has worked where with in two years we are just shy of employment being where it was prepandemic. The fiscal stimulus got into the right hands and people spent the economy back to prosperity. By far we are better off than we were in 2009/2010.
Yes we have inflation, much of it caused by supply chain issues. Some like automotive did the same thing they did in 2008. They did not maintain their orders for things like key fogs, doors and dashes, etc. So the tiers did not order. Just the start up at the NXPs, Panasonics, Infineons, etc. are a month to grow the wafers and a couple of months to bring those fab plants back on line. I lived the same issue in 2008. Company profits are yuge as trump might say.
Gasoline is high but not as high as 2008 when inflation is considered. If people would drive the speed limit, it would ease demand. I worry about healthcare for children and the extra funds going in their direction. That helped them and the economy a lot. We have Manchin blocking the BBB program as he preaches from his house boat "Almost Heaven" to kayaks below picketing him.
Maybe John Denver painted it a bit too rosy. West Virginia has one of the worst opioid problems in the United States. It is ranked near the bottom for living quality and has a decreasing population. Those programs Biden pushed helped West Virginia's population tremendously. There is an article "Senator Manchin Telling a Story" written by some guy called run75441. Good story about opioids and how we got to today.
Maybe I am full of crap (not in the things I am telling you) but in we have a chance to win big if people start to realize what happened after Biden took office. But Dems don't talk, we commiserate. If I did not understand the economics of all of this, I would be thinking just like you. Don't be down, push back.
We can win. This is not a catastrophe. Quite the opposite. It is very positive. Yes there is inflation, the majority caused by business interests. Biden did well.
Thanks Bill, you are right on point on so many things, and thanks for serving our country. Someday I hope to make it out to Arizona to visit that beautiful state once again. I have been active in politics my entire adult life. And you are right, we have had crises that theatened our way of life economically and constitutionally. As you brought up 2008 was 'yuge', hell, 1968, the year you joined the Marine Corps was a test, with King and RFK being assissinated within months of each other, the civil rights disconntent, the Vietnam War. But the constitution to me was always there like strong marble pillars that hold up a building. It held strong during the Nixon debacle, for example. I am going to continue to fight, to continue to be involved here in Pennsylvania (like Arizona without those pesky "cyber ninjas") to maintain democracy for my grandchildren. I live in a hotly contested congressional district and I am not cowering or bailing out! But it is somewhat depressing. Sounds like you grew up in the Northeast? I worked in NYC and lived in North Jersey just a couple years following your boilermaker story, and although I didn't actually see that stuff, I know it was happening. But I am getting off point. Your points on Biden are very well articulated by the way!
Don't be so sure Repubs will take over the majority this November. I have my fears too, but being sure of loss is not helpful. It only helps bring about what you expect.
How does this work? Every attorney takes an unconditional oath to support the Constitution. I do not think there are exclusions for insurrections either. The oaths may vary by state except with support for the constitution. Pence is an attorney. His attorney Greg Jacob writing a three-page letter (redundant alert) is an attorney. Greg is writing about what the "president and his supporters were demanding Pence do the next day would break the 1887 Electoral College Act." Really? John Eastman is an attorney. Most of Congress are attorneys. They all swore oaths to support the constitution.
Seems to me we can hold a mass disbarment of those who failed to take action in warning people of the insurrection on the 6th (Pence and Jacob) and those who were silent. The committee already has the evidence. These people need to experience what the inside of a jail cell looks like.
Why are there exceptions for these critters while the insurrectionists who showed up on the 6th are being dealt with in courts and jail cells. Why do they get a by? In comparison, these people are worse than the insurrectionists. They knew, sat back, and "let" it all happen.
Sermon complete.
Amen and good idea, Bill.
Law school, the Bar exams ... much of it is a haze, but I recall taking the Oath like it was yesterday. Members of Congress swore another Oath when they took office.
There was a time when an Oath meant something - people were held to account if they violated it.
Again - a great idea!
R Dooley:
It still means something the same as the oath I took to enter the Marine Corps in 68 and later as an NCO. There was no ignoring it or writing a letter. I would have gone to the Brig like so many I took there for disobeying their oath.
They should be jailed or charged just like the insurrectionists attacking the capitol. It is not an idea, it is a fact.
Attorneys are not protected from the law. They incited a riot. They failed to warn authorities. They n should be disbarred also. Their is no freedom from an oath,
And lose healthcare, pensions and pay back pay for when they began to break their oaths of office and to We The People— their employers.
Think Michael Flynn. I still think he should have been recalled to the military, put on trial, convicted and thrown in the brig.
His brother Charles was part of this too, and he holds a command post in the Navy. We must try to get all of them we possibly can. Bag 'em, tag 'em, and ship them to Gitmo for an extended, offline vacation.
Well said. There is no freedom from an oath, only the responsibility to uphold it.
AGREE!
This.
I, too, swore an oath, and as one who holds a retired commission card, I still uphold it. Those are not just words you mouth as you raise your right had and swear, to the best of your ability, to (whatever version of "protect and defend the Constitution of the United States to the best of my ability" your particular oath held; mine also included "keep my private life unsullied, and to obey the laws of the land") but it is a promise to do just that. Apparently, an oath means nothing to some people. Not to me.
The so-called "Oath Keepers" would more accurately be referred to as the "Oath BREAKERS."
Ah, but remember, these people interpret the Constitution in their "own" way, twisting meanings to suit their warped views that many of us cannot agree with or understand the thought process behind. Similar to the supposed "originalist" judges who band together for their backwards viewpoints.
The oath they took says they will support the constitution, not interpret it to suit their individual beliefs. Upon enlisting or being drafted, the oath I took:
"I, (name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same . . . "
There is nothing there which says I can interpret it differently. The oath is different than the Constitution. Court may interpret it differently, this we know. This court is made up of "originalists." I believe they would hold to the same words even though law is interpretive. The oath is not law even though it is assertion. I would call it a rule.
I was bound by the UCMJ. If there was nothing in the UCMJ which covered an issue, there was always Article 38 which was called the "Captain's Cloak," which covered anything unspecified. This is outside of the topic.
Just like the evangelical rabid right "interpreted" their professed Scripture in their lust for temporal power.
Yep.
I still believe many of those you mention will eventually be prosecuted. Some also may well be disbarred.
In large conspiracy cases like this one, the I vestigations are long and deep. They build from the bottom up, so the footsoldiers always get arrested first. Some will probably flip and give evidence against those further up the chain of command.
We have no guarantee, but the Committee cannot prosecute. It is laying out the evidence.
DOJ is, slowly, it seems, beginning to move up the chain. Wewill get there.
We must get there! If not, we may well lose our country in the next coup attempt.
The next 'attempt' is already well under way. Armed poll watchers? Ongoing tampering with election infrastructure, and democratic majorities being ruled by an illegitimate minority.
Apparently, they see the Constitution as an ink blot which affords them the freedom to interpret it anyway they choose. If so, their interpretation provides us with a roadmap to a diagnosis (charge) and treatment (punishment). Let’s get on with it.
Leading off with Ginni Thomas.
McCarthy first, then Ginni. I suspect it will be Meadows and Scavino, though.
I’d say, disbar and charge Eastman first.
Absolutely. Many at center of power have law degrees from Ivy League schools. For sure something not working correctly.
A bunch of those ivy graduates are not smart enough to stop publicly incriminating themselves.
In itself amazing.
Hmm, only, Pence is being painted as a hero who refused to break the law ...?
A hero would have reported what was going on before during and after the election leaving nothing out
Maybe he will be a "surprise witness" for the 1/6 committee.
Not a chance, unfortunately. He and Mother still think God is calling him to be POTUS. The base would never support him if he helped the committee.
Wouldn't that be great but I doubt it
Seems "hero" has been cheapened in our vernacular.
I don’t see it that way. He did nothing to ”decide” not to be a traitor until he consulted with others who warned and counseled him. I remember thinking at the time….he had to be convinced? Please. He is a minion.
An attorney does not commit a crime by breaking her/his oath of admission to the bar, but bar discipline up to disbarment is possible. In the case of those who participated actively in T___p’s attempt to overthrow the Constitution, I expect that a number of them will become cooperating witnesses for the prosecutions that I devoutly hope are coming down the road. Most of those will probably escape prosecution, but they may well loses their law licenses, viz. John Dean.
Expelled from office and prohibited from holding office for life.
Bill, the image of a mass disbarment is in the realm of spectacular disbelief - - it would be a perfect summation of the preamble of the constitution. Is it more movie than reality? Leave it to Spike Lee or Quentin Tarantino? I would rather see it live at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C.
Great sermon! I like your mass disbarment idea. Besides lawyers taking an oath to support the Constitution, I am pretty sure all Congressional members must take this type of oath too. That would also include the POTUS. Whether or not these Republicans who were involved in this believe in the Big Lie or not, their fealty is to their constituents. How can these people honestly represent said constituents when they believe(?) that Trump is still POTUS?
Not one of them believed it.
Check General Mark Hertling’s Twitter feed about the Constitutional oath. Says it all.
Oaths obviously depend on the character and integrity of the person taking the oath. Oaths are sacred, as they should be, to those responding here. As we have seen throughout the last 5 years, with impeachment hearings as a glaring example, many of our elected officials have neither character nor integrity. They take an oath and hire a lawyer.
If only we paid attention to character and integrity, in addition to platform, as we cast our ballots.
Mitch McConnell is the poster child for this problem. He took the oath; voted against impeachment; publicly admitted Trump’s crimes; said he would vote for him again.
Well said, and precisely what we have all been feeling for months as The Coup II is well under way. We can't permit them to cheat us, lie to us and steal from us anymore.
🙏
Oath only lasted as long as they were employed (paid, toted). Moved on once they revised their resumes to appear that they were innocent bystanders/objectors. Reborn honorable. Never knew about the camps. Sad.
Yuk.
Start with low-hanging fruit?
This isn't an original thought, it's been expressed before, but seriously the Republican Party could have gotten rid of this goiter on the side of their necks during the last impeachment trial. I don't know how this will end, I am sure the R's will win the majority in the House of Representatives, and of course the investigation at the congressional level will end. And the Trump stain will remain with the Republican Party only in history books. Really sad thing is, it does prove that justice is not handed out evenly or equally. Elections going forward will be under a cloud. There is for the first time in my 68 years a feeling our 'Great Experiment' might be coming to an end. All because of one man's incredible ego, and his ability to take advantage of those who think tribally, forgetting the meaning of the pledge to the flag we all have made countless times: .......indivisable, with liberty and justice for all.
John:
Are you 68 years old or did you not count when you were young? I am 73 and have seen a lot in my 40-something years of working. I sometimes believe I walked uphill both ways to get to where I am today. I was in the Corps at 19 in 68 and that was old in many respects. I had worked with my dad as a laborer when I was 16 till I was 18 and than full time at 18. Those was some tough critters. Boilermakers for lunch and back to the scaffolds many flors up.
Do you remember 2007/8 when Wall Street blew up the economy and Main Street was hammered? We paid a horrendous price for Wall Street and banks gambling with CDS/naked CDS with no reserves or pennies on the dollar. Banks were doing liar mortgages. People lied able income and assets and banks did not checking on the reality of them. Goldman Sachs called in on their CDS which AIG owned. AIG did not have enough cash. The Fed (pretty sure stepped in).
Obama passed the ARRA which was opposed by Republicans. Much of it got through but it was cut, not targeted correctly, and people whined about the debt and people being unemployed longer than expected. He wasn't a failure, he was a Black President stymied by Repubs for political and personal reasons.
Fast forward to 2020, Biden gets into office in spite of Repubs failing to fight an insurrection before it happened. They own this and they are jut s bad as those at the capitol on the 6th, There is no excuse for them or anyone else associated with trump not ratting on this to authorities.
I hold Bidden responsible for student loan issues. He may have learned the lessons from 2008. Everything he did to stimulate the economy has worked where with in two years we are just shy of employment being where it was prepandemic. The fiscal stimulus got into the right hands and people spent the economy back to prosperity. By far we are better off than we were in 2009/2010.
Yes we have inflation, much of it caused by supply chain issues. Some like automotive did the same thing they did in 2008. They did not maintain their orders for things like key fogs, doors and dashes, etc. So the tiers did not order. Just the start up at the NXPs, Panasonics, Infineons, etc. are a month to grow the wafers and a couple of months to bring those fab plants back on line. I lived the same issue in 2008. Company profits are yuge as trump might say.
Gasoline is high but not as high as 2008 when inflation is considered. If people would drive the speed limit, it would ease demand. I worry about healthcare for children and the extra funds going in their direction. That helped them and the economy a lot. We have Manchin blocking the BBB program as he preaches from his house boat "Almost Heaven" to kayaks below picketing him.
Maybe John Denver painted it a bit too rosy. West Virginia has one of the worst opioid problems in the United States. It is ranked near the bottom for living quality and has a decreasing population. Those programs Biden pushed helped West Virginia's population tremendously. There is an article "Senator Manchin Telling a Story" written by some guy called run75441. Good story about opioids and how we got to today.
Maybe I am full of crap (not in the things I am telling you) but in we have a chance to win big if people start to realize what happened after Biden took office. But Dems don't talk, we commiserate. If I did not understand the economics of all of this, I would be thinking just like you. Don't be down, push back.
John:
We can win. This is not a catastrophe. Quite the opposite. It is very positive. Yes there is inflation, the majority caused by business interests. Biden did well.
Thanks Bill, you are right on point on so many things, and thanks for serving our country. Someday I hope to make it out to Arizona to visit that beautiful state once again. I have been active in politics my entire adult life. And you are right, we have had crises that theatened our way of life economically and constitutionally. As you brought up 2008 was 'yuge', hell, 1968, the year you joined the Marine Corps was a test, with King and RFK being assissinated within months of each other, the civil rights disconntent, the Vietnam War. But the constitution to me was always there like strong marble pillars that hold up a building. It held strong during the Nixon debacle, for example. I am going to continue to fight, to continue to be involved here in Pennsylvania (like Arizona without those pesky "cyber ninjas") to maintain democracy for my grandchildren. I live in a hotly contested congressional district and I am not cowering or bailing out! But it is somewhat depressing. Sounds like you grew up in the Northeast? I worked in NYC and lived in North Jersey just a couple years following your boilermaker story, and although I didn't actually see that stuff, I know it was happening. But I am getting off point. Your points on Biden are very well articulated by the way!
Don't be so sure Repubs will take over the majority this November. I have my fears too, but being sure of loss is not helpful. It only helps bring about what you expect.