Big virtual hugs to the people who scared off the deranged idiots wanting to complain about arrested insurrectionist being "political prisoners," by calling Gaetz a pedophile & blowing a whistle to drown out their disgusting lies!
Big virtual hugs to the people who scared off the deranged idiots wanting to complain about arrested insurrectionist being "political prisoners," by calling Gaetz a pedophile & blowing a whistle to drown out their disgusting lies!
This caught my attention. I think strong non-violent counter protesting is a viable tool for change. My hometown has been holding peaceful counter protests since before the elections when out of town trumpsters organized weekly stand outs downtown. We played music, held flags - realized we also needed some stars and stripes since the alternative group felt they only owned it. A few times things got rowdy. But with good organization and *training*, counter protests can drown out the lies, since we can't prevent them. And both sides are protected by the first amendment. When they are allowed to lie unchallenged - the lies get legitimized. The must be challenged every way possible.
We are better, Christopher. We aren't lying. Do you see no differences? A small crowd challenged several dishonest, fascistic, conspiracy spreading elected representatives.
Those demonstrators demonstrated the work of the people. They are us and we will follow their example by making our voices heard throughout the country.
The protesters were brilliant! The fact that they were able to shutdown the RepubThugs so completely made my day. Gotta love those peacefully disruptive tactics!
No matter how heinous their intent, they had a right to be there to spew their false talking points. Should we be proud about denying 1st Amendment rights with those whom we disaheagree?
Does that not give their supporters license to do the same to us?
Never been a fan of cancelling the other side. It's better to let them speak and then pummel them with the fallacy of their own words.
It's OK to jeer, but shutting down a legal event does not make us look better, it makes us look afraid of hearing what they had to say. Avoidance is not a good strategy in cases like these.
They ran away from the crowd that shouted some tough questions at them, and they were being heckled. No cancelling went on. This group that ran away never stops spewing their lies and conspiracies. They couldn't stand up to a crowd that stood up to them.
It wasn't the heckling, but the whistle that made it useless to try and continue. It's better to let them speak. Mo Brooks can now be sued for his remarks on Jan 6. Had he been silenced, he'd have gotten away with it.
Do blatant lies, meant to foment mistrust and violence really deserve a public podium? They had nothing new to say, it was just a photo op. So glad they folded so quickly.
These people have scripts, which are repeated endlessly. How often do regular folks have the opportunities to be heard as compared to the folks you are defending? They hardly suffer from a loss of 1st amendment rights. Their spiels play endlessly on loops, at rallies, on social media, Fox, and any old street corner of their choice.
Because IтАЩm a lifelong Democrat who has voted in every election since тАШ72. Because IтАЩm a veteran. Because IтАЩm a former union steward. Because IтАЩm a father and grandfather. Because I paid my $50 plus donations and gifted subscriptions. Because IтАЩm not afraid to ask tough questions and stand up for the Constitution for what it is and not what I want it to be. And in this case heckling is a poor substitute for protesting. Finally, little good is accomplished without controversy, the hecklers ended the event according to the papers. WeтАЩll never know what they could have said that could be used against them under oath.
Please donтАЩt question my right to participate, itтАЩs contrary to the purpose of this platform.
Have a better day.
Typed on my phone waits for Costco to open because they ended the early hour for seniors.
Christopher, I enjoyed our argument and still await an explanation for the fault in my logic.
Sorry that you were put on the spot. We thrive on differences of opinion as well as supportive comments, new information and other perspectives. We have all been through a lot. I noted to Kay that we get short tempered and impatient, but need to remember the value different points of view and respect for subscribers who differ with us.
Kay, Given all we have been through - the former president - the pandemic - the lies - and attacks on public health, the free press, Covid, etc., etc., our tolerance of differences may have worn thin. We are all susceptible to impatience and short tempers. I posted Christopher mentioning that I thought it inappropriate for is presence among us to be questioned. His robust reply told us more about Christopher, for which I am glad, but, again I was sorry that he was put on the spot. I hope you are not annoyed with me for bringing this up. The main point I hope to make, is for all of us to be respectful when encountering an opinion, which seems to be in opposition to ours.
The protest definitely did not shut down the event Christopher. To tell the truth, Green looked nonplussed and was hurried away by her handler when confronted by a single protester blowing a whistle. What was evident and telling is that they had no supporters there to cheer them on. Gaetz had reporters and a person following him to his car yelling тАЬare you a pedophile, Mr. Gaetz?тАЭ
I think the Proud Boys and their ilk already shut down liberal protest. However, I do expect our paid elected officials to do more than spread lies and disinformation.
There are plenty of ways to protest at events like that one. Acting like a magahat yahoo is not one of them imho. What I saw was a race to the bottom that only served to play into miscreant GOP script. It will only serve to escalate more bad behavior from the right.
The hecklers were lucky it was a small event with low attendance. Definitely they deserve points for showing up but the execution was rank amateurish.
There are much better ways to get into "good trouble". That's not what I saw today, what I saw was one step removed from a drum circle.
I was listening and thinking hard about your comments as I always do. You back up your comments with your philosophies. But. What do you mean about тАЬone step removed from a drum circleтАЭ?
There is a cherished tradition during season on a well known beach o on the west coast of Florida. Usually on weekend. Drummers (amateur and professional) of all faiths hold a drum circle in the tradition of cultural celebrations of nature and community. Every circle is so well attended and emanates good will and peace.
When you talked about singers in song such as Battle Hymn of the Republic, I thought good idea. With a few drummers to set the beat.
Most protests I've participated in have had them but they tended to be ornamental, like Deadheads looking for a venue. They add color to the event for the participants but don't add much else. I'm a musical creature and appreciate their performance but they aren't the reason or the goal of the protest, but they do no harm and like you say provide a beat. What you described is something different more along the lines of the Native American tradition or even African or South Asian where drums are part of the religious tradition.
The folks who disrupted the faux event by MTG and company succeeded in shutting it down but the optics were bad imho. Drum circles at protests can have less than ideal optics to outsiders, I think that's what I was trying to convey. Probably a bad example since I've never seen a drum circle try to drum out a GOP event.
Firstly, this was not a 'legal' event, it was a press conference.
Secondly, we already know what they have to say, they've said it ad nauseum and it stinks to high heaven. They were looking to create sound bites for their entertainment channel AKA Fox "News".
Thirdly, when a child throws a tantrum (of which this was tantamount to), one does not gain anything by pretending that they have anything valid to add to the conversation by this particular tactic. Yes, if they have something valid to say, let them say it and back it up with facts and truth. If they are going to throw a tantrum, holding up signs behind them is not 'rank amateurish', it's a good strategy in the moment and I'm thrilled that they got it together as quickly as they did. Of course, the GQP will learn from this mistake and not repeat it, as the optics are much much worse for them. We need to stay fleet and nimble and come up with creative ways to counter their tantrums. Facts and Truth are great ways to do that.
Well, the next time AOC speaks and gets shutdown will you praise the rightwing hecklers?
The legality of the presser is not relevant. They surely had to get permission from DoJ to do it.
Whether or not they were going spew the same old vomit is not a valid reason. Of course it was to make a FoxNews soundbite, there's no law against that. They might have said something so egregious it could have led to subpoenas.
Facts mean nothing to them in the moment. Facts only work when they are dominating the news cycle and it puts them on the defensive.
Why is your America so small? Let them hang themselves with their own words.
One thing is for sure, if you shut them up they will retaliate in kind.
I've been reading this thread with interest. I'm rather conflicted about civility in encounters with the magahats and their ilk - this is because my blood boils very quickly at injustice and lies and I react before thinking at times. It is perhaps for this aspect of my personality that I enjoy seeing people like Gaetz and MTG shut down in public.
However, your point about the same thing happening to AOC hits home. I have tremendous respect for the work she and the Squad are doing in Congress and am often appalled (if not surprised) at the reactions of the right-wing to her very articulate speeches. I am also appalled (and surprised) by the reactions against the Squad within the ranks of the left, in particular from Democratic women who are resisting the progressive efforts of younger Congresswomen.
I don't think it unfair to consider a number of our elected representatives as purveyors of death as well as misinformation. When challenging their messages, I am in favor of vigorous protest.
'More recently Taylor Green compared the Biden administrations door-to-door vaccine push to the Nazi paramilitary wing Sturmabteilung, colloquially referred to as тАЬbrownshirts.тАЭ
тАЬPeople have a choice, they donтАЩt need your medical brown shirts showing up at their door ordering vaccinations," Greene wrote in early July. тАЬYou canтАЩt force people to be part of the human experiment." (Yahoo News, 7/26/21)
'Marjorie Taylor Greene calls Fauci an 'enemy to our nation' and says he should be indicted' (Yahoo News, 7/21/21)
'Florida Rep Matt Gaetz refused to say whether he has been vaccinated against Covid-19 as the House reinstates a mask mandate to combat the spread of coronavirus.' (AP)
тАЬIтАЩm not in favour of it,тАЭ Mr Gaetz told The Independent.
'In WednesdayтАЩs session, the majority of House Republicans could be seen wearing masks inside the chamber, along with all Democrats. But a cluster of maskless Republicans sat in a back center aisle in defiance, including Reps. Matt Gaetz (R., Fla.), Mary Miller (R., Ill.) and others.' (Wall St. Journal) 7/28/21
Yet, I wonder how good at distinguishing various types of speech people who seem uncomfortable with confrontation are. This is what is fascinating about this discussion for me. I think we all agree that the messages of the right need to be fought. The fitness of using a rape whistle to shut down Matt Gaetz is probably lost on just about everyone who didn't know that was what the whistle was designed for. And I do think there is a clear difference between name-calling - which the right indulges in toward outspoken progressive women vociferously - and loud, articulate, pointed protest. I see a difference, you see a difference - whereas some herein see only rudeness and incivility on both sides. As long as we are ALL doing our parts to fight the right, does it matter our methods? I think that, just as not all of us have the same learning style, neither do we all have the same style of doing good trouble. This fight needs ALL of us.
I guess I don't understand why you are given such a hard time here. Michelle Obama herself said When they go low, we go high." It seems to me you are saying the same thing.
Often it's a matter of interpretation and personal biases. I used to be a "my party right or wrong" kinda guy until I realized that my party seemed to be more wrong than right when it comes to the things that matter most to me.
If I'm going to challenge others here, I have to accept it coming right back at me. I'll keep saying this until it sticks: "Little good is accomplished without controversy."
I've got to say that I agree with you. The Dems have to be careful not to go low or we're no better. These things do come back to bite. We don't want to stoop to their level. We have to have faith that truth and justice will prevail. There could be a time when stooping low is the only choice, but we are hopefully nowhere near that now. I am thinking of the riots in MO when businesses were burned and looted in 2014. My 20-something son said to me, "Mom, they feel like they have no other choice. They have not been heard or listened to for so long."
Well said. Like JFK said "..we do these things because they are hard". It's ironic that stemming the tide of rightwing lies is astronomically harder than sending someone to the moon, but there we are.
Where is the American spirit that got us through the Great Depression and WWII? I contend it's been co-opted by the American plutocracy but it's really a question for Heather.
It was a bitter pill for me to swallow when I realized the hole we Democrats find ourselves in today is a result of decades of the party turning its back on the least among us that metastasized into including most working and middle class folks.
These protesters were prepared. They had more than a whistle with them.
'Rep Louie Gohmert, one of the members of Congress to speak at the news conference, briefly returned to speak to reporters after the news conference dissolved into chaos but was drowned out by a large brass band, DC Critical Condition, which was apparently contracted by demonstrators to show up and drown out the news conference with music'. See link below:
Much better I hadn't seen that, brass is class. Still that can't be rehashed every time they want to speak.
When you let them speak, as I just pointed out elsewhere, you let them put themselves in jeopardy of causing a "yelling FIRE in a theater" moment, and then you've got 'em. If demonstrators had shut up Mo Brooks treasonous Jan 6 tirade he might have been able to be defended by DoJ, but now he can't because he was able to speak.
The speakers at this event are what I consider the Knuckle-Draggers Caucus. They are always in trouble. We need to worry about the Ivy Leaguers like Hawley and Cruz who are far more dangerous in the long run.
Yes, it's a cost of being an American. We used to talk about the pendulum swinging back and forth between left and right, but nowadays it has started to move in 3 dimensions, left and right and forward and back. We've been going backwards and right since Reagan.
It's time to move left and forward again thanks to things Biden has done I honestly didn't suspect but am so glad to see. Thanks to him many things are showing those signs of moving in positive directions but a lack of courage and an abundance of turf protecting in Congress is impeding progress.
Christopher, Our somewhat different perspectives require more expansive discussion and time, which this form does not encourage. I was very happy to hear from you. We both have had rich experiences and reflected on socio-political issues for some time. I do not have time now and do not know how we may proceed. It is too bad that we do not live near one another. That would enable us to enjoy face to face elaborations on our positions. I think, perhaps, we will have to depend of a number of fairly short exchanges over time. Until the next time, Salud!
Christopher, I would at some point like to learn about podcasting from you. As to utilizing that means of communication now in order to elaborate upon our varying perspectives about propaganda from the far-right, and I go further to accuse the movement of being a death machine, would not to my liking. Given the deaths from the pandemic here (many unnecessary); calls to 'freedom' from facemasks and vaccines; delegitimizing the presidential election and the free press as well as support for white supremacy, I see the signs of tyranny. There are a few wise, contemporary thinkers whose writing I look to for understanding. I am not one of those people. For me to be a speaking on the current risks to our country and much of the world is unthinkable. My concern is at the highest level and ability to offer discourse on its roots and contributing forces is at a low level. For you and I to exchange thoughts on how to counteract the extreme, far-right perpetrators on this forum is the appropriate means of exchange from my point of view.
I am listening carefully to you, Christopher. And I understand what you are saying. What do you think would have worked for the Germans/Jews/gays/ etc. in retaliation against Hitler's brainwashing of his people that they are the chosen ones and developed his Nazi regime using fear and lies.
His People were spoken to in rallies and programmed to march and carry out the most heinous crimes against their own people. I am not seeing much difference in the past five years. I see a well-armed, seditious/terrorist militia that includes trained police, veterans. And you pointed out that had there been more Gaetz/Green supporters, there could have been a very different outcome in violence perpetrated against the counter-protesters. What happens is we are a nation full of fear perpetrated against us by an authoritarian regime. They do not give an iota about real rights--over our bodies, our votes, our colors, our religions, our ultimately our Constitution and laws. We are in a dangerous time that is leading nowhere but to war. We are also full of PTSD, sick, tired, and struggling with a pandemic which prevents many of us from marching in huge groups.
We have plenty to charge all of these idiots with crimes against our country.
Allowing liars to spew their mindbending crap on vulnerable or white supremacists has not been working well for us or those who protect us. These authoritarians have infiltrated our government systems of justice and thwarted democracy. This Jan. 67th commission is the first inkling of bi-partison, truth-seeking people. To hear them and the four officers yesterday was mindbending in itself because it was so honest and real. To have shit thrown at them that they are actors is raising an anger that needs some kind of release after all the patience we have had to uphold for 5 years. Tell me, Christopher, do we wait and not try new ways of shutting up liars and brainwashers until there are concentrations camps like the ones they built for refugee children at our border? Justice is right around the corner we hear. Right around the corner. Tell that to all the officers who tried to protect our democracy from these insurrectionists. Good people were harmed, brain-injured, eye-gouged, stabbed with flag-poles. A hangman's noose was constructed to hang the Vice frigging President of the United States of America. These idiots were searching for him and others to kill. And I do not like Mike Pence one iota, but where does this stop? I ask you--where and how does insanity and lying this stop?
One last thing and we stick a fork in this one. History doesn't so much repeat as it does rhyme. While conditions seem like what happened in Germany, it's still a minority behind it. America writ large has not forgotten the Nazi regime and the killing of 6 million Jews and 400, 000 American troops, but many have yet to wake up and accept things today are not right. More do so everyday and our main job should be enlightening all those Americans too busy just meeting their basic needs, and don't have the luxury we enjoy swimming in the toxic political pool.
The insanity and lying might stop when their lying becomes so toxic it poisons itself but we had better be working towards decency and sanity delivered in a humane and common sensical fashion. More wisdom, less whistles, not saying no whistles but don't make that the strategy if you want to ultimately win.
We have to realize the differences between Germany then and America now. Then the government took control of the papers and airwaves, now our mainstream media is a near monopoly owned by plutocrats or their corporations BUT here we are reading LFAA and all the other Substack newsletter. We have access to many like minded content providers on YouTube and other non-mainstream outlets we can stream online.
The more we repeat their madness, the more we suck out the oxygen of the counter position, namely our position.
It scares me more when I read liberals cowering in fear of the antics of idiots than the actual acts of those morons. When you let them know they scare you they win, but by the same token, the more you act like them the more they win also.
Michele Obama got it half right. What is better is to add a little something like: When they go low, we go high and then we kick them in the nut sack with relentless truth delivered calmly with a smile or with humor.
The hecklers had a quick and lucky result but had there been a rabid maga-maniac in the crowd there could have been some serious injuries.
Where does it stop? It stops when the Democrats in Congress do the right thing. We have the too many of the wrong ones in there right now because of their recalcitrance over the past 4 decades to stand up for the majority of their lower income voters. The failure of the party to have a 50 state strategy has given them a majority of the states with a minority of the voters and the Supreme Court to boot.
This is what we need to be pissed about and should be working to fix.
Thank you for your well-thought out responses. My rational mind agrees with you. My experience and patience of the past five years and my obsession with WWII make me very wary of how patience might not work out based on the destruction of our systems of checks and balances and lack of an entire party not agreeing to operate within our rules of law. That has crippled our democracy. My heart says to believe we will bounce back much stronger, but what I have witnessed is the trampling of our justice systems, our rights to vote with all these suppressions, gerrymandering, the EC, bullying and crudeness and threats to our elected officials and their families, destruction of post offices, etc.. On and on adnauseam.
I do not belong to either major party due to them being owned by corporations and the wealthy. But this has it has always been, has it not? But the dems are more rational than the cult of repubs now.
I am not so confident that the small, highly arrogant, riled up, armed, white supremacist movement of the dying patriarchy (hopefully!) have almost committed a successful coup against our country and government. I will not be confident until I see a lot more elected officials in prison for seditious acts against our country.
The dilemma of our silence and keeping pandemically safe тАФтАФ crickets or whistles? There are many kinds of whistles-- like writing, calling, speaking truth to lies. I am with the Whistlers rather than the deniers, liars and those willing to destroy our democracy.
This makes me wonder if there is also a color/gender issue with trusting a system that has been run like a caste, dominated by white men since it's inception, and is currently being trashed by mostly white men because it was almost beginning to work (election of Obama). They fear losing their power over the rest of us-- women, people of color, LGBTQ, different spiritual belief systems (Those who have been waiting, mostly respectfully, for the laws to protect us as People equally, our right to vote, to choose for ourselves what happens to our spirits and bodies? What happens to us simply because of the pigment in our skin?
White privileged males may be more patient about our 1st Amendment speech than those of us on the end of hate speech or actions. It is a very serious predicament. But right now, I am not as afraid of trampling our 1st Amendment as I am of saving our democracy. Because all of our rights will not matter much if this republican inspired, Putin/Mercer/Murdock/Koch backed coup succeeds in destroying what so many of died for, including all the Native Americans who were genocided to take their lands and resources, and the atrocities of slavery that made supremely white men rich. My only hope is that we have the Power because there are more of us than them as you say, and that, some how, the wheels of our laws and justice system will miraculously begin to work to protect All The PeopleтАФ this time.
NO matter what happens, we are a much more engaged and educated population than we were when the 2016 election shattered our country.
Amen, Penelope! And you did it without sinking low, so perhaps have a better chance of getting through. Although his comments fomented a lot of discussion, I am glad Christopher decided to try to thoroughly explain his position (parts of which I also hold, but not everything). And I think you, Penelope, may have struck on where the division could lie between/amongst us. I've often found that otherwise very progressive white men of my age group trust in the system more than younger white men schooled by the feminists of my generation to respect the opinions of women, of BIPOC, of the underserved as highly as their own opinions, and to view the world through a somewhat less privileged and roseate lens than that of their fathers. (I suspect you might be one of that sort, Stephen?)
I am in awe of the rising power of those who do not fall into the Rich White Entitled Male category. I make it a point to support those who have a steeper hill to climb. There are so many voices in this column who have my undying respect and support for the uphill battle that we face as we move forward.
But I. believe you said they shouldn't be allowed to spread their unwanted speech. That's one side of it, to stop them from speaking.
The other side is to let them speak so you know what they are up to. It's not always the same rehashed trash. They keep digging deeper and deeper. That's why the DoJ is not going to defend the MoCs who spoke at the Jan 6 storming of the Capitol. You can still disrupt while they are speaking if only to rattle their cage and put the on the defensive.
Given the left's inability to mount a real attack the only alternative is to let the fascists bury themselves with their own words.
There is no "third way" if that's what you're driving at. Either you stop them from speaking completely or you let them spew waiting for that "yelling fire in a theater" moment and then pounce.
I never said that they shouldn't be allowed to spread their speech, just that we can have creative ways of countering it. If that means holding up signs that say Traitors and Rapists, sit down, then so be it. BTW, I didn't see that in your list of extensive options... :) They may speak in front of those signs, they may run and cower. Either way, the world has already heard their tired tirade and no one is in the dark as to 'what's going on'.
Signs are a given and preferred but a little noise is always an option just don't go overboard or it will be returned in kind and we have no recourse.
Again, it's not what they've said in the past, it's what they are going to say next. If they don't escalate they lose attention and airtime. Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves eventually.
Don't beat yourself up! I tweeted today almost 700 million Americans had died from Covid. Before I could correct it several trolls had a field day. I don't take offense from folks with less than 30 followers.
Big virtual hugs to the people who scared off the deranged idiots wanting to complain about arrested insurrectionist being "political prisoners," by calling Gaetz a pedophile & blowing a whistle to drown out their disgusting lies!
This caught my attention. I think strong non-violent counter protesting is a viable tool for change. My hometown has been holding peaceful counter protests since before the elections when out of town trumpsters organized weekly stand outs downtown. We played music, held flags - realized we also needed some stars and stripes since the alternative group felt they only owned it. A few times things got rowdy. But with good organization and *training*, counter protests can drown out the lies, since we can't prevent them. And both sides are protected by the first amendment. When they are allowed to lie unchallenged - the lies get legitimized. The must be challenged every way possible.
Yes, absolutely. The training and organizing are the bedrock of grassroots organizations.
Thing is they are allowed to lie. We need to be better than that.
We are better, Christopher. We aren't lying. Do you see no differences? A small crowd challenged several dishonest, fascistic, conspiracy spreading elected representatives.
A commentary I saw called it a "rape whistle," a defensive tool used in case of attack.
Thank you, Syd. You've explained the rhyme and reason behind the 'rape whistle' given the presence of Gaetz.
That is seriously witty. ЁЯШВ
Meidas Touch is selling Q whistles "You too can interrupt a traitor's press conference with our new GQP Repellent whistles."
https://store.meidastouch.com/products/q-busters-whistle
I checked this out. So great! Thanks.
The whistles are brilliant. They resonate as a general "call to stop bad behavior" device.
I loved that that was used to drown out any words from these crazies!!
Those demonstrators demonstrated the work of the people. They are us and we will follow their example by making our voices heard throughout the country.
Yes indeed, what great examples they are.
Totally agree Eve! Gaetz and Green scurried away like the little rats they are!
Methinks that little incident portends of greater things to come. Next, I expect protesters to follow them around blowing whistles. Nice touch.
Meidas Touch is selling Q whistles "You too can interrupt a traitor's press conference with our new GQP Repellent whistles."
https://store.meidastouch.com/products/q-busters-whistle
Gotta love the American entrepreneurial spirit.
Brilliant! I posted the link on my FB page! Doing my part, one whistle at a time!
I think she's more of a medium sized rodent, and he's a long, thin snake. Please pardon my intrusion, Christine.
Not at all, Fern. Good morning and nice embellishment on your part!
IтАЩm hearing the peopleтАЩs drumbeat finally!
An insult to all snakes and rats!
...and what about the poor turtles stuck around Mitch's neck?
How many at last count? ЁЯШВ
Too many to count!
ЁЯдкЁЯдгЁЯдгЁЯдг
laughing. out. loud.
Me, too. I love turtles and hate to see them in that environment.
The protesters were brilliant! The fact that they were able to shutdown the RepubThugs so completely made my day. Gotta love those peacefully disruptive tactics!
No matter how heinous their intent, they had a right to be there to spew their false talking points. Should we be proud about denying 1st Amendment rights with those whom we disaheagree?
Does that not give their supporters license to do the same to us?
Never been a fan of cancelling the other side. It's better to let them speak and then pummel them with the fallacy of their own words.
It's OK to jeer, but shutting down a legal event does not make us look better, it makes us look afraid of hearing what they had to say. Avoidance is not a good strategy in cases like these.
They ran away from the crowd that shouted some tough questions at them, and they were being heckled. No cancelling went on. This group that ran away never stops spewing their lies and conspiracies. They couldn't stand up to a crowd that stood up to them.
Thou shalt be subpoenaed...
I am really hoping Gaetz and MTG will be subpoenaed, aling with a host of others. LetтАЩs hope the Truth will out!
It will. Count on it.
You can be so devout and racy at the same time. Brava!
It wasn't the heckling, but the whistle that made it useless to try and continue. It's better to let them speak. Mo Brooks can now be sued for his remarks on Jan 6. Had he been silenced, he'd have gotten away with it.
Let them speak under oath. Big difference.
Your reply is key. Thank you, Kay.
Do blatant lies, meant to foment mistrust and violence really deserve a public podium? They had nothing new to say, it was just a photo op. So glad they folded so quickly.
These people have scripts, which are repeated endlessly. How often do regular folks have the opportunities to be heard as compared to the folks you are defending? They hardly suffer from a loss of 1st amendment rights. Their spiels play endlessly on loops, at rallies, on social media, Fox, and any old street corner of their choice.
Disagree
What do you disagree with? Was there any untruth in my post?
No. I disagree with your logic.
Why are you here?
Because IтАЩm a lifelong Democrat who has voted in every election since тАШ72. Because IтАЩm a veteran. Because IтАЩm a former union steward. Because IтАЩm a father and grandfather. Because I paid my $50 plus donations and gifted subscriptions. Because IтАЩm not afraid to ask tough questions and stand up for the Constitution for what it is and not what I want it to be. And in this case heckling is a poor substitute for protesting. Finally, little good is accomplished without controversy, the hecklers ended the event according to the papers. WeтАЩll never know what they could have said that could be used against them under oath.
Please donтАЩt question my right to participate, itтАЩs contrary to the purpose of this platform.
Have a better day.
Typed on my phone waits for Costco to open because they ended the early hour for seniors.
Christopher, I enjoyed our argument and still await an explanation for the fault in my logic.
Sorry that you were put on the spot. We thrive on differences of opinion as well as supportive comments, new information and other perspectives. We have all been through a lot. I noted to Kay that we get short tempered and impatient, but need to remember the value different points of view and respect for subscribers who differ with us.
Blah, blah, blah. I voted in the тАШ72 election. Unlike you, I still have to work and cannot go to Costco on a weekday. Stop whining.
Nicely stated
Kay, Given all we have been through - the former president - the pandemic - the lies - and attacks on public health, the free press, Covid, etc., etc., our tolerance of differences may have worn thin. We are all susceptible to impatience and short tempers. I posted Christopher mentioning that I thought it inappropriate for is presence among us to be questioned. His robust reply told us more about Christopher, for which I am glad, but, again I was sorry that he was put on the spot. I hope you are not annoyed with me for bringing this up. The main point I hope to make, is for all of us to be respectful when encountering an opinion, which seems to be in opposition to ours.
Not annoyed, just MYOB.
The protest definitely did not shut down the event Christopher. To tell the truth, Green looked nonplussed and was hurried away by her handler when confronted by a single protester blowing a whistle. What was evident and telling is that they had no supporters there to cheer them on. Gaetz had reporters and a person following him to his car yelling тАЬare you a pedophile, Mr. Gaetz?тАЭ
I think the Proud Boys and their ilk already shut down liberal protest. However, I do expect our paid elected officials to do more than spread lies and disinformation.
Christopher Johnson
Tolerance can be taken too far. If we are tolerant of the intolerant, it will eventually destroy us.
That being said, the signs that people were holding did more to shut them down than the whistle did. 'Traitors and rapists, sit down' indeed!
There are plenty of ways to protest at events like that one. Acting like a magahat yahoo is not one of them imho. What I saw was a race to the bottom that only served to play into miscreant GOP script. It will only serve to escalate more bad behavior from the right.
The hecklers were lucky it was a small event with low attendance. Definitely they deserve points for showing up but the execution was rank amateurish.
There are much better ways to get into "good trouble". That's not what I saw today, what I saw was one step removed from a drum circle.
I was listening and thinking hard about your comments as I always do. You back up your comments with your philosophies. But. What do you mean about тАЬone step removed from a drum circleтАЭ?
There is a cherished tradition during season on a well known beach o on the west coast of Florida. Usually on weekend. Drummers (amateur and professional) of all faiths hold a drum circle in the tradition of cultural celebrations of nature and community. Every circle is so well attended and emanates good will and peace.
When you talked about singers in song such as Battle Hymn of the Republic, I thought good idea. With a few drummers to set the beat.
Most protests I've participated in have had them but they tended to be ornamental, like Deadheads looking for a venue. They add color to the event for the participants but don't add much else. I'm a musical creature and appreciate their performance but they aren't the reason or the goal of the protest, but they do no harm and like you say provide a beat. What you described is something different more along the lines of the Native American tradition or even African or South Asian where drums are part of the religious tradition.
The folks who disrupted the faux event by MTG and company succeeded in shutting it down but the optics were bad imho. Drum circles at protests can have less than ideal optics to outsiders, I think that's what I was trying to convey. Probably a bad example since I've never seen a drum circle try to drum out a GOP event.
Firstly, this was not a 'legal' event, it was a press conference.
Secondly, we already know what they have to say, they've said it ad nauseum and it stinks to high heaven. They were looking to create sound bites for their entertainment channel AKA Fox "News".
Thirdly, when a child throws a tantrum (of which this was tantamount to), one does not gain anything by pretending that they have anything valid to add to the conversation by this particular tactic. Yes, if they have something valid to say, let them say it and back it up with facts and truth. If they are going to throw a tantrum, holding up signs behind them is not 'rank amateurish', it's a good strategy in the moment and I'm thrilled that they got it together as quickly as they did. Of course, the GQP will learn from this mistake and not repeat it, as the optics are much much worse for them. We need to stay fleet and nimble and come up with creative ways to counter their tantrums. Facts and Truth are great ways to do that.
Well, the next time AOC speaks and gets shutdown will you praise the rightwing hecklers?
The legality of the presser is not relevant. They surely had to get permission from DoJ to do it.
Whether or not they were going spew the same old vomit is not a valid reason. Of course it was to make a FoxNews soundbite, there's no law against that. They might have said something so egregious it could have led to subpoenas.
Facts mean nothing to them in the moment. Facts only work when they are dominating the news cycle and it puts them on the defensive.
Why is your America so small? Let them hang themselves with their own words.
One thing is for sure, if you shut them up they will retaliate in kind.
I've been reading this thread with interest. I'm rather conflicted about civility in encounters with the magahats and their ilk - this is because my blood boils very quickly at injustice and lies and I react before thinking at times. It is perhaps for this aspect of my personality that I enjoy seeing people like Gaetz and MTG shut down in public.
However, your point about the same thing happening to AOC hits home. I have tremendous respect for the work she and the Squad are doing in Congress and am often appalled (if not surprised) at the reactions of the right-wing to her very articulate speeches. I am also appalled (and surprised) by the reactions against the Squad within the ranks of the left, in particular from Democratic women who are resisting the progressive efforts of younger Congresswomen.
Thank you for the food for thought, Christopher.
I don't think it unfair to consider a number of our elected representatives as purveyors of death as well as misinformation. When challenging their messages, I am in favor of vigorous protest.
'More recently Taylor Green compared the Biden administrations door-to-door vaccine push to the Nazi paramilitary wing Sturmabteilung, colloquially referred to as тАЬbrownshirts.тАЭ
тАЬPeople have a choice, they donтАЩt need your medical brown shirts showing up at their door ordering vaccinations," Greene wrote in early July. тАЬYou canтАЩt force people to be part of the human experiment." (Yahoo News, 7/26/21)
'Marjorie Taylor Greene calls Fauci an 'enemy to our nation' and says he should be indicted' (Yahoo News, 7/21/21)
'Florida Rep Matt Gaetz refused to say whether he has been vaccinated against Covid-19 as the House reinstates a mask mandate to combat the spread of coronavirus.' (AP)
тАЬIтАЩm not in favour of it,тАЭ Mr Gaetz told The Independent.
'In WednesdayтАЩs session, the majority of House Republicans could be seen wearing masks inside the chamber, along with all Democrats. But a cluster of maskless Republicans sat in a back center aisle in defiance, including Reps. Matt Gaetz (R., Fla.), Mary Miller (R., Ill.) and others.' (Wall St. Journal) 7/28/21
Total agreement!
Yet, I wonder how good at distinguishing various types of speech people who seem uncomfortable with confrontation are. This is what is fascinating about this discussion for me. I think we all agree that the messages of the right need to be fought. The fitness of using a rape whistle to shut down Matt Gaetz is probably lost on just about everyone who didn't know that was what the whistle was designed for. And I do think there is a clear difference between name-calling - which the right indulges in toward outspoken progressive women vociferously - and loud, articulate, pointed protest. I see a difference, you see a difference - whereas some herein see only rudeness and incivility on both sides. As long as we are ALL doing our parts to fight the right, does it matter our methods? I think that, just as not all of us have the same learning style, neither do we all have the same style of doing good trouble. This fight needs ALL of us.
I guess I don't understand why you are given such a hard time here. Michelle Obama herself said When they go low, we go high." It seems to me you are saying the same thing.
Often it's a matter of interpretation and personal biases. I used to be a "my party right or wrong" kinda guy until I realized that my party seemed to be more wrong than right when it comes to the things that matter most to me.
If I'm going to challenge others here, I have to accept it coming right back at me. I'll keep saying this until it sticks: "Little good is accomplished without controversy."
'Little good is accomplished without controversy'. To that I can give a whole-hearted Amen.
Their press conference was NOT a legal event.
I've got to say that I agree with you. The Dems have to be careful not to go low or we're no better. These things do come back to bite. We don't want to stoop to their level. We have to have faith that truth and justice will prevail. There could be a time when stooping low is the only choice, but we are hopefully nowhere near that now. I am thinking of the riots in MO when businesses were burned and looted in 2014. My 20-something son said to me, "Mom, they feel like they have no other choice. They have not been heard or listened to for so long."
Well said. Like JFK said "..we do these things because they are hard". It's ironic that stemming the tide of rightwing lies is astronomically harder than sending someone to the moon, but there we are.
Where is the American spirit that got us through the Great Depression and WWII? I contend it's been co-opted by the American plutocracy but it's really a question for Heather.
It was a bitter pill for me to swallow when I realized the hole we Democrats find ourselves in today is a result of decades of the party turning its back on the least among us that metastasized into including most working and middle class folks.
The siren call of "power money" can be very alluring. One must be even more dedicated to the greater good than to power to resist it.
I don't know who the guy with the whistle was, but I can give $25 to help keep him supplied with Acme Thunderers.
These protesters were prepared. They had more than a whistle with them.
'Rep Louie Gohmert, one of the members of Congress to speak at the news conference, briefly returned to speak to reporters after the news conference dissolved into chaos but was drowned out by a large brass band, DC Critical Condition, which was apparently contracted by demonstrators to show up and drown out the news conference with music'. See link below:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/gaetz-taylor-greene-brass-band-b1891648.html
I can think of nothing finer and more patriotic than a large brass band to fend off paedophiles and fascists.
These protesters are the best. Between them and you, I've had my first laugh of the day.
Oh no, Fern! It's past 7 your time! You need to catch up on laughter before bedtime!!
Much better I hadn't seen that, brass is class. Still that can't be rehashed every time they want to speak.
When you let them speak, as I just pointed out elsewhere, you let them put themselves in jeopardy of causing a "yelling FIRE in a theater" moment, and then you've got 'em. If demonstrators had shut up Mo Brooks treasonous Jan 6 tirade he might have been able to be defended by DoJ, but now he can't because he was able to speak.
The speakers at this event are what I consider the Knuckle-Draggers Caucus. They are always in trouble. We need to worry about the Ivy Leaguers like Hawley and Cruz who are far more dangerous in the long run.
Christopher they all breed trouble at the very least.
Yes, it's a cost of being an American. We used to talk about the pendulum swinging back and forth between left and right, but nowadays it has started to move in 3 dimensions, left and right and forward and back. We've been going backwards and right since Reagan.
It's time to move left and forward again thanks to things Biden has done I honestly didn't suspect but am so glad to see. Thanks to him many things are showing those signs of moving in positive directions but a lack of courage and an abundance of turf protecting in Congress is impeding progress.
Christopher, Our somewhat different perspectives require more expansive discussion and time, which this form does not encourage. I was very happy to hear from you. We both have had rich experiences and reflected on socio-political issues for some time. I do not have time now and do not know how we may proceed. It is too bad that we do not live near one another. That would enable us to enjoy face to face elaborations on our positions. I think, perhaps, we will have to depend of a number of fairly short exchanges over time. Until the next time, Salud!
Je dit salut!
We could always do a podcast. That's one of my side gigs.
Christopher, I would at some point like to learn about podcasting from you. As to utilizing that means of communication now in order to elaborate upon our varying perspectives about propaganda from the far-right, and I go further to accuse the movement of being a death machine, would not to my liking. Given the deaths from the pandemic here (many unnecessary); calls to 'freedom' from facemasks and vaccines; delegitimizing the presidential election and the free press as well as support for white supremacy, I see the signs of tyranny. There are a few wise, contemporary thinkers whose writing I look to for understanding. I am not one of those people. For me to be a speaking on the current risks to our country and much of the world is unthinkable. My concern is at the highest level and ability to offer discourse on its roots and contributing forces is at a low level. For you and I to exchange thoughts on how to counteract the extreme, far-right perpetrators on this forum is the appropriate means of exchange from my point of view.
I'll be back in a day or two.
Meidas Touch is selling Q whistles "You too can interrupt a traitor's press conference with our new GQP Repellent whistles."
https://store.meidastouch.com/products/q-busters-whistle
Qapitalism is alive and well! $10 for a piece of plastic!!!
I am listening carefully to you, Christopher. And I understand what you are saying. What do you think would have worked for the Germans/Jews/gays/ etc. in retaliation against Hitler's brainwashing of his people that they are the chosen ones and developed his Nazi regime using fear and lies.
His People were spoken to in rallies and programmed to march and carry out the most heinous crimes against their own people. I am not seeing much difference in the past five years. I see a well-armed, seditious/terrorist militia that includes trained police, veterans. And you pointed out that had there been more Gaetz/Green supporters, there could have been a very different outcome in violence perpetrated against the counter-protesters. What happens is we are a nation full of fear perpetrated against us by an authoritarian regime. They do not give an iota about real rights--over our bodies, our votes, our colors, our religions, our ultimately our Constitution and laws. We are in a dangerous time that is leading nowhere but to war. We are also full of PTSD, sick, tired, and struggling with a pandemic which prevents many of us from marching in huge groups.
We have plenty to charge all of these idiots with crimes against our country.
Allowing liars to spew their mindbending crap on vulnerable or white supremacists has not been working well for us or those who protect us. These authoritarians have infiltrated our government systems of justice and thwarted democracy. This Jan. 67th commission is the first inkling of bi-partison, truth-seeking people. To hear them and the four officers yesterday was mindbending in itself because it was so honest and real. To have shit thrown at them that they are actors is raising an anger that needs some kind of release after all the patience we have had to uphold for 5 years. Tell me, Christopher, do we wait and not try new ways of shutting up liars and brainwashers until there are concentrations camps like the ones they built for refugee children at our border? Justice is right around the corner we hear. Right around the corner. Tell that to all the officers who tried to protect our democracy from these insurrectionists. Good people were harmed, brain-injured, eye-gouged, stabbed with flag-poles. A hangman's noose was constructed to hang the Vice frigging President of the United States of America. These idiots were searching for him and others to kill. And I do not like Mike Pence one iota, but where does this stop? I ask you--where and how does insanity and lying this stop?
One last thing and we stick a fork in this one. History doesn't so much repeat as it does rhyme. While conditions seem like what happened in Germany, it's still a minority behind it. America writ large has not forgotten the Nazi regime and the killing of 6 million Jews and 400, 000 American troops, but many have yet to wake up and accept things today are not right. More do so everyday and our main job should be enlightening all those Americans too busy just meeting their basic needs, and don't have the luxury we enjoy swimming in the toxic political pool.
The insanity and lying might stop when their lying becomes so toxic it poisons itself but we had better be working towards decency and sanity delivered in a humane and common sensical fashion. More wisdom, less whistles, not saying no whistles but don't make that the strategy if you want to ultimately win.
We have to realize the differences between Germany then and America now. Then the government took control of the papers and airwaves, now our mainstream media is a near monopoly owned by plutocrats or their corporations BUT here we are reading LFAA and all the other Substack newsletter. We have access to many like minded content providers on YouTube and other non-mainstream outlets we can stream online.
The more we repeat their madness, the more we suck out the oxygen of the counter position, namely our position.
It scares me more when I read liberals cowering in fear of the antics of idiots than the actual acts of those morons. When you let them know they scare you they win, but by the same token, the more you act like them the more they win also.
Michele Obama got it half right. What is better is to add a little something like: When they go low, we go high and then we kick them in the nut sack with relentless truth delivered calmly with a smile or with humor.
The hecklers had a quick and lucky result but had there been a rabid maga-maniac in the crowd there could have been some serious injuries.
Where does it stop? It stops when the Democrats in Congress do the right thing. We have the too many of the wrong ones in there right now because of their recalcitrance over the past 4 decades to stand up for the majority of their lower income voters. The failure of the party to have a 50 state strategy has given them a majority of the states with a minority of the voters and the Supreme Court to boot.
This is what we need to be pissed about and should be working to fix.
Thank you for your well-thought out responses. My rational mind agrees with you. My experience and patience of the past five years and my obsession with WWII make me very wary of how patience might not work out based on the destruction of our systems of checks and balances and lack of an entire party not agreeing to operate within our rules of law. That has crippled our democracy. My heart says to believe we will bounce back much stronger, but what I have witnessed is the trampling of our justice systems, our rights to vote with all these suppressions, gerrymandering, the EC, bullying and crudeness and threats to our elected officials and their families, destruction of post offices, etc.. On and on adnauseam.
I do not belong to either major party due to them being owned by corporations and the wealthy. But this has it has always been, has it not? But the dems are more rational than the cult of repubs now.
I am not so confident that the small, highly arrogant, riled up, armed, white supremacist movement of the dying patriarchy (hopefully!) have almost committed a successful coup against our country and government. I will not be confident until I see a lot more elected officials in prison for seditious acts against our country.
The dilemma of our silence and keeping pandemically safe тАФтАФ crickets or whistles? There are many kinds of whistles-- like writing, calling, speaking truth to lies. I am with the Whistlers rather than the deniers, liars and those willing to destroy our democracy.
This makes me wonder if there is also a color/gender issue with trusting a system that has been run like a caste, dominated by white men since it's inception, and is currently being trashed by mostly white men because it was almost beginning to work (election of Obama). They fear losing their power over the rest of us-- women, people of color, LGBTQ, different spiritual belief systems (Those who have been waiting, mostly respectfully, for the laws to protect us as People equally, our right to vote, to choose for ourselves what happens to our spirits and bodies? What happens to us simply because of the pigment in our skin?
White privileged males may be more patient about our 1st Amendment speech than those of us on the end of hate speech or actions. It is a very serious predicament. But right now, I am not as afraid of trampling our 1st Amendment as I am of saving our democracy. Because all of our rights will not matter much if this republican inspired, Putin/Mercer/Murdock/Koch backed coup succeeds in destroying what so many of died for, including all the Native Americans who were genocided to take their lands and resources, and the atrocities of slavery that made supremely white men rich. My only hope is that we have the Power because there are more of us than them as you say, and that, some how, the wheels of our laws and justice system will miraculously begin to work to protect All The PeopleтАФ this time.
NO matter what happens, we are a much more engaged and educated population than we were when the 2016 election shattered our country.
Tres besos y muchas corazons for that one Penelope!
Gracias, Stephen. You don't think I went a little overboard?
What you said cannot be said enough. Preach it sister!
Amen, Penelope! And you did it without sinking low, so perhaps have a better chance of getting through. Although his comments fomented a lot of discussion, I am glad Christopher decided to try to thoroughly explain his position (parts of which I also hold, but not everything). And I think you, Penelope, may have struck on where the division could lie between/amongst us. I've often found that otherwise very progressive white men of my age group trust in the system more than younger white men schooled by the feminists of my generation to respect the opinions of women, of BIPOC, of the underserved as highly as their own opinions, and to view the world through a somewhat less privileged and roseate lens than that of their fathers. (I suspect you might be one of that sort, Stephen?)
I am in awe of the rising power of those who do not fall into the Rich White Entitled Male category. I make it a point to support those who have a steeper hill to climb. There are so many voices in this column who have my undying respect and support for the uphill battle that we face as we move forward.
We live in a binary world conundrum of always having 2 choices. In this hornets nest I've shaken it boils down to:
1. Shutdown the opposition and not hear what they have to say
2. Let them speak so we know what's going on.
I like to think that's behind the Washington Post's masthead(?) that says:
"Democracy dies in darkness"
I prefer to stand in the light. I need to see and hear as much from the enemy as I can.
I do not live in a binary world. I seek always more options.
But I. believe you said they shouldn't be allowed to spread their unwanted speech. That's one side of it, to stop them from speaking.
The other side is to let them speak so you know what they are up to. It's not always the same rehashed trash. They keep digging deeper and deeper. That's why the DoJ is not going to defend the MoCs who spoke at the Jan 6 storming of the Capitol. You can still disrupt while they are speaking if only to rattle their cage and put the on the defensive.
Given the left's inability to mount a real attack the only alternative is to let the fascists bury themselves with their own words.
There is no "third way" if that's what you're driving at. Either you stop them from speaking completely or you let them spew waiting for that "yelling fire in a theater" moment and then pounce.
I never said that they shouldn't be allowed to spread their speech, just that we can have creative ways of countering it. If that means holding up signs that say Traitors and Rapists, sit down, then so be it. BTW, I didn't see that in your list of extensive options... :) They may speak in front of those signs, they may run and cower. Either way, the world has already heard their tired tirade and no one is in the dark as to 'what's going on'.
Signs are a given and preferred but a little noise is always an option just don't go overboard or it will be returned in kind and we have no recourse.
Again, it's not what they've said in the past, it's what they are going to say next. If they don't escalate they lose attention and airtime. Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves eventually.
Excuse me, I meant Jan. 6th commission, not 67th.
Don't beat yourself up! I tweeted today almost 700 million Americans had died from Covid. Before I could correct it several trolls had a field day. I don't take offense from folks with less than 30 followers.
Typos are my personal trademark тДвя╕П
Agr├йe!