Thank you for your measured discussion of cluster munitions. Unfortunately, with Russia using them against Ukrainians, the Ukrainians already have the danger of unexplored munitions.
I’d like to see a US or Chinese minesweeper travel through international waters to clear a path for grain ships to stave off starvation for so many.
Thank you for your measured discussion of cluster munitions. Unfortunately, with Russia using them against Ukrainians, the Ukrainians already have the danger of unexplored munitions.
I’d like to see a US or Chinese minesweeper travel through international waters to clear a path for grain ships to stave off starvation for so many.
If the US Sixth Fleet did for Ukrainian grain ships what was done for international oil tankers in the Persian Gulf 10 years ago, which called Iran's bluff, that would solve the problem. Putin may huff and puff and threaten to blown the house down, but that collection of garbage scows he calls a "navy" would be out of their minds to try and intervene with an escorted convoy. The Russian Navy knows they have been nothing but targets for other navies for the past 200+ years.
Tom If Putin blocks grain shipments, bombs Odessa, and threatens ships, Zelensky should announce that he WILL destroy the bridge between Russia and Crimea. Built illegally by Putin—and destroyed by Zelensky. Looking for the photo op.
Mine Sweepers are a truly unique, limited asset. Last I checked we had exactly SEVEN and they were not on active service (they have to activated). It's something they should at least think about.
I really, really hope all NATO nations are thinking and planning for their use, because grain riots in the continent of Africa doesn't bear thinking. I assume at least the Brits, French and Germans have them, as well as the US?
The disparity is probably even larger than that. The U.S. "advertised" dud rate is 2.35%, but it's probably more like the 5% you stated. I've seen assessments of Russian dud rates as high as 40%. The munitions are a big deal. If provided in large quantities, they can absolutely change the battlefield (ask the Iraqi Army, ca. 1991 about this). The bottom line is exactly as Heather stated--IT'S THE UKRAINIANS' TERRITORY. This is NOT the time for Western useful idiot sanctimoniousness.
One factor to consider here is that Russia has been using cluster munitions for the entire war, generally on civilian targets as terror weapons. Also, there are millions of Russian and Ukrainian mines and unknown numbers of unexploded artillery shells in the ground in Ukraine. The cluster munitions Ukraine is using will be used in open rural areas on the current front line, so a limited part of Ukraine's territory. It will take years of careful de-mining to find all the munitions, and they won't find all of them that's true - and also true of mines and unexploded artillery shells. War IS hell.....
I have read that the orcs have also placed landmines throughout Ukraine's best farmland. Putin, his generals, and his orcs, should be the ones forced to remove them when the war is over and Ukraine has all its territory out from under the boot.
There won't be an opportunity to fill those trenches until after the war is over, which is months to years from now. Until then, Ukrainian soldiers will have occupy and traverse that territory, so clearing of unexploded ordinance will be necessary. Any unexploded bombs are a danger, but yes, the deeper a bomb is, the less likely it is to explode and then cause damage. But over time, soil erodes, utility trenches are dug, and soil is overturned for farming. Basements for buildings may be dug. Sometimes, buried items migrate upwards due to effects of drying/wetting and freeze/thaw cycles. Bottom line is that while buried explosives pose less risk than those at the surface, they will continue to be dangerous for decades.
Thank you for the detailed reply. Had wondered if current cluster munitions are smaller than the long-lived bombs of WWI and that since they were aimed at trenches whether they would be buried more easily. The reminders of soil movement with freezing, thawing, etc., are clear too. I have seen the green fields of Northern France and hope with all my heart that the Ukrainians will be able to grow wheat sooner than the French have been able to.
Every year, farmers in Europe on sites of WWI battles dig up or collect surfaced artillery shells and grenades from that war, and they are collected by local army demolition experts - over 100 years after the end of the "Great War".....
Thank you for your measured discussion of cluster munitions. Unfortunately, with Russia using them against Ukrainians, the Ukrainians already have the danger of unexplored munitions.
I’d like to see a US or Chinese minesweeper travel through international waters to clear a path for grain ships to stave off starvation for so many.
If the US Sixth Fleet did for Ukrainian grain ships what was done for international oil tankers in the Persian Gulf 10 years ago, which called Iran's bluff, that would solve the problem. Putin may huff and puff and threaten to blown the house down, but that collection of garbage scows he calls a "navy" would be out of their minds to try and intervene with an escorted convoy. The Russian Navy knows they have been nothing but targets for other navies for the past 200+ years.
Tom If Putin blocks grain shipments, bombs Odessa, and threatens ships, Zelensky should announce that he WILL destroy the bridge between Russia and Crimea. Built illegally by Putin—and destroyed by Zelensky. Looking for the photo op.
Hmm calling Putin's bluff vs calling the ayatollahs' bluff?
10 years ago vs today?
Not exactly equivalent perhaps.
Mine Sweepers are a truly unique, limited asset. Last I checked we had exactly SEVEN and they were not on active service (they have to activated). It's something they should at least think about.
I really, really hope all NATO nations are thinking and planning for their use, because grain riots in the continent of Africa doesn't bear thinking. I assume at least the Brits, French and Germans have them, as well as the US?
Here in Germany, Ukraine is just a little over 1,000 miles by car. Wondering how desperate Putin is to make himself a hero in his own little eyes.
Spot-on comment Mary with a proposed international-waters solution to reduce risk of human starvation in vulnerable populations.
I read somewhere that Russian cluster munitions detonate at a far lower rate, like 70% vs. 95%.
End of comment :-).
The disparity is probably even larger than that. The U.S. "advertised" dud rate is 2.35%, but it's probably more like the 5% you stated. I've seen assessments of Russian dud rates as high as 40%. The munitions are a big deal. If provided in large quantities, they can absolutely change the battlefield (ask the Iraqi Army, ca. 1991 about this). The bottom line is exactly as Heather stated--IT'S THE UKRAINIANS' TERRITORY. This is NOT the time for Western useful idiot sanctimoniousness.
One factor to consider here is that Russia has been using cluster munitions for the entire war, generally on civilian targets as terror weapons. Also, there are millions of Russian and Ukrainian mines and unknown numbers of unexploded artillery shells in the ground in Ukraine. The cluster munitions Ukraine is using will be used in open rural areas on the current front line, so a limited part of Ukraine's territory. It will take years of careful de-mining to find all the munitions, and they won't find all of them that's true - and also true of mines and unexploded artillery shells. War IS hell.....
One thing I have always loved about this comment section is the solutions offered here.
I have read that the orcs have also placed landmines throughout Ukraine's best farmland. Putin, his generals, and his orcs, should be the ones forced to remove them when the war is over and Ukraine has all its territory out from under the boot.
Is it possible that when Ukrainians fill the trenches in their fields much unexploded ammo will be too deeply buried to explode?
There won't be an opportunity to fill those trenches until after the war is over, which is months to years from now. Until then, Ukrainian soldiers will have occupy and traverse that territory, so clearing of unexploded ordinance will be necessary. Any unexploded bombs are a danger, but yes, the deeper a bomb is, the less likely it is to explode and then cause damage. But over time, soil erodes, utility trenches are dug, and soil is overturned for farming. Basements for buildings may be dug. Sometimes, buried items migrate upwards due to effects of drying/wetting and freeze/thaw cycles. Bottom line is that while buried explosives pose less risk than those at the surface, they will continue to be dangerous for decades.
Thank you for the detailed reply. Had wondered if current cluster munitions are smaller than the long-lived bombs of WWI and that since they were aimed at trenches whether they would be buried more easily. The reminders of soil movement with freezing, thawing, etc., are clear too. I have seen the green fields of Northern France and hope with all my heart that the Ukrainians will be able to grow wheat sooner than the French have been able to.
Every year, farmers in Europe on sites of WWI battles dig up or collect surfaced artillery shells and grenades from that war, and they are collected by local army demolition experts - over 100 years after the end of the "Great War".....
In Northern France acres and acres of unsafe farmland. I have seen them from the Somme.