Over the weekend, I found myself stuck when someone recited Fox News talking points at my face. In panic at my own weakness, I was not able to retrieve all that I know from Heather Cox Richardson about the successes of this administration. I did refute the dementia claim with a simple question: how do you know he has dementia? I walked a…
Over the weekend, I found myself stuck when someone recited Fox News talking points at my face. In panic at my own weakness, I was not able to retrieve all that I know from Heather Cox Richardson about the successes of this administration. I did refute the dementia claim with a simple question: how do you know he has dementia? I walked away from the conversation frustrated with myself because I had not memorized the truth that is in this letter today. Now I will.
I think many of us are trying to figure out how to respond to the Fox "News" sound bites. A Republican Trump loving friend asked me what we were going to do about voter suppression in Arizona. We're in Texas and that is now two years old! She asked me what I thought about it. Fortunately, I came up with an answer that made her think a bit. I told her I was concerned that the people who did the audit in AZ were not qualified and did not know how to do an audit. That was new information to her that she did try to digest. Years ago I owned property in Maricopa County. Those "auditors" ruined all the voter machines to the point they can't be used again costing the taxpayers in Maricopa County something like a million dollars to replace. If I were still paying taxes there I would be livid. We're all trying to figure out how to make conversation without getting pulled into the conspiracy theories. I recommend attending the webinars with the Research Collaborative. https://researchcollaborative.org/our-team They test messaging to see how it works. In most cases it seems to make about a 3% difference in how people would vote. With all the tight races that can make all the difference. Here with the community we have reading Heather's Letters is a great place to share what works and what doesn't. Anat Shenker-Osorio is a brilliant communicator. Here is her website: https://www.asocommunications.com/ She is also one of the principal presenters on the Research Collaborative webiars. She shows you what words and messages are stronger -- such as Trump Republicans or MAGA Republicans is stronger than saying Republicans or Extremists. Another example is "Protect our freedoms" or "Ensure the will of the people prevails" rather than "defend our democracy" or "protect our democracy" -- why? - because democracy is an abstraction. I understand your frustration; my brother is a Tea Party type. The main thing we agree on is not to let politics get in the way of our love for each other. We're all struggling with this but I have a lot of hope that we'll make a difference just by trying! And, we are going to win this!
Thank you for your kind words, D4N. I also loved your response about speaking calmly. It reminded of a time when I needed to talk to a senior VP in the corporation I worked for (a highly ethical fortune 100 technology company) where I could sense he didn't want to hear what I needed to say. It was like a wall between us. I decided to speak calmly and quietly and slip under his wall. It worked! I also like Ruth Bader Ginsberg quote: "Reacting in anger or annoyance will not advance one's ability to persuade."
I recently bought a sweatshirt/hoodie from Penzeys Spices: On the back it says: "Kindness can't simply sit down because anger has stood up." I have several MAGA folks in my extended family--young ones, too--and have had some success with calmness on things we do agree about so that I can slide some reality talk onto the table.
Thank you Cathy, this is so helpful! Off to view the website, meanwhile, I'm now working to protect our freedoms and ensure that the will of the people prevails!" What scares me a tiny bit about the second phrase about the will of the people is, "which people?" Back to working at the state and local levels....one postcard/conversation/person at a time!
I’m joining a webinar Tuesday night addressing this very point via Younify.org titled Faith or Fear. I’m hoping to pick up strategies for discussions whose decibel levels remain sane.
Good message, Cathy. I quibble about using "Protect our freedoms" as a motto because the MAGA Republicans use "freedom" as a defense for owning assault weapons and other guns, and not wearing masks to protect themselves and others from Covid, etc., etc. One of the best mottos I've read is "When Republicans win, you lose." Or "When Democrats win, you win."
Mim, I'm holding the Republican Party as a whole accountable and have vowed not to vote for any Republican at any level - local, state and federal. Hope this will become a movement. However, the issue of freedom is larger than the two-party bickering. Both parties are extreme one way or the other. I'm an Independent now. Heather Cox Richardson's latest Letter was particularly excellent on how President Biden is steadily working toward the bottom up and middle out economy to address income disparity and strengthen the economy for everyone. And, getting results that are becoming visible now. We still need to address the dark money and overturn Citizens United and the other things the dark money driven Supreme Court is doing which are anti-democracy and pro plutocracy. We all win then even the Republicans who are caught up in the conspiracy theories and Fox sound bites. We, the People, all of us this time!
Rational people will always be at a loss debating the delusional. I wouldn’t lose sleep over it Charlotte. Just encourage young people and non voters to vote.
No worries and don't feel bad. Dr. Richardson avoids the one sentence demonization that Fox uses all day long every day ... so ... your weapons are few.
So, you will never have those quick demonization bullets that people who watch Fox have to use from HCR. So, don't try to correct a Fox News lover by disagreeing with any demonization of Biden. They believe Jesus is just about to return tomorrow and all the dead will rise up from the graves and float up to heaven. You CANNOT change their belief. BUT, you can hit on what they DO know to be true.
Their uneducated kid is still living at home working at McDonald's instead of working at Ford making $50 bucks an hour.
So!! you CAN memorize a few things that are true AND that the Fox numbed will understand:
1) We have done trickle down economics for 43 years and during that time all manufacturing left the USA (remember when it was all here?) and all white middle class jobs for those without a college education disappeared as a direct consequence. Hence, trickle down killed the not college educated middle class. DEAD. This is a fact and FOX lovers KNOW IT. Although, it is more complicated than the one sentence, this will do.
2) We have cut taxes on corporations for 43 years which has resulted in? Again, the destruction of those jobs that were formerly for high school educated whites. Those jobs are all gone to Asia. What did that actually result in???? Only a very, very small number of white guys, no smarter than YOU, (you say to them) have benefitted, through gigantic bonuses, from the trickle down/cutting corporate taxes strategy.
Then: you conclude your short and sweet delivery with: IS THAT FAIR TO YOU?? Leave them with that question. Now, this will hit home. I promise.
Even dumb white people know there are no good jobs for their kid that cannot get into the local community college (for whatever reason). So the above, carefully enunciated with good eye contact, will register, however, that will NOT change their minds that Democrats are demons.
Also, The Fox News lovers ALSO know that the white guys at the top of corporations are getting huge bonuses......tie that to Republican policy.
BUT, don't bother trying to convince them that Biden is a good President. Waste of time. Again, that is like trying to get them to believe Satan is a good guy. Never mind they have never seen Satan, heard Satan speak, or know anything about Satan.
I gave up long ago even trying to present facts to Republicans. Facts don’t matter and will only cause them to fuss and fume. Now what about those space lasers that force the voting machines to give the Democrats more votes? See what I mean?
Trust that I'm aware Jack. The thing I've had to realize, and worse accept, is that there's more than one reason that so many have 'bought in'. I consider them ill folks, and speak my truth of facts in evidence, then walk away. When the public at large chorus is on the same song so to speak, the followers will follow or languish. Speak truth, try not to convince or control is what I've had to learn on many levels.
Even with all the best points fresh in your mind it would be daunting to refute Faux claims. You would likely end up frustrated in any case. Getting the other person to talk about their experience and feelings, rather than attempting to reply sometimes makes the encounter more palatable. At least you gain insight to their mindset, maybe you create an opening for change.
Charlotte, a little tidbit for you. When someone makes comments that you are in disagreement with, just say “I believe you feel that way.” And then walk away. They will never figure out that you dissed them!
I actually like "I'm sorry you feel that way" Because I want them to know that I don't agree. But I won't engage with them, because as someone else said, delusions, which are fixed ideas that don't respond to evidence or facts, only strengthen if you take them on directly.
And the most powerful ending is to walk away, literally and figuratively. If they need to have their "last word," so be it. It can be directed to my backside or to the silence I leave behind.
one dishonest but effective debate tactic used by Trump, etc, which your "someone" used was simply to ask as many questions as possible. This leaves you trying to explain in depth an issue, while they are on to the 10th question. Doesn't matter, of course, how valid the question is. Think of Trump's questioning Obama's citizenship. He just asked the question incessantly, without any proof, and many people thought it was true, simply because of repetition.
So true, don’t answer, ask them back. I used to just say, “where did you hear that.” They would say Fox, I would just smile and say I thought so. Now they won’t say Fox, they learned
Jeri, That exactly how I handle the few I run into. I always ask for specifics. I always get the same answer. “They lie” then I ask “about what?” “Everything”. That’s not an answer. “Exactly what did they lie about?” “Everything”. “I see...” as I walk away shaking my head. “You have no answer .” Usually how it goes...
Most of those type folks are seasoned influencers and / or obsessively faux schooled koolaid guzzlers, defending to the death the mistakes in judgement they've made, but can't bring themselves to admit... sort of like addiction addled. Others, just passionately angry, hateful, resentful. No reasoning with those types. Just speak your truth calmly and walk away - smiling all the while.
Reading this and the resulting comments and I think trying to argue or convince is usually fruitless with these folks. Maybe the best thing is to come up with a succinct stinger along the lines of "You can believe whatever you want, but that doesn't make it true" or "I'd rather be kind than cruel" or "I'd rather think than blindly follow." I don't know, these aren't that good but you get what I mean.
Dear Charlotte, I am reminded of research that shows how Republicans and Democrats have different brain structures and that research points a way to engage the person who is disagreeing with you.
The research showed at 77%+ reliability the a Republican would have a larger amygdala than a Democrat. This part of the brain governs feelings, especially fear. And that a Democrat would have a larger prefrontal cortex which is a thinking part of the brain. One point of the research was to point a way to engage the person with whom you disagree. First find where you do agree and find a way to validate the other person’s concerns. Otherwise you are serving the agenda of keeping us polarised haters.
Dear Mary; I've been aware of 'that' research for a very long time - decades in fact. Pardon that I'm not a total subscriber, yet I'm aware that many take that whole bit comfortably, hook, line, and sinker. I've found in practice that such comfort misleads some to feel a level of smug superiority and some to find it to be a thing worthy of usefulness for the aim of manipulation. Hopefully, you'll not think my thoughts to be any 'arrow' aimed at you; only thoughts to consider in general. As confusing and unsettling as it might be for me, I think folks don't all fit into little boxes that we can honestly and completely simplify in such ways. It's obviously more comforting to do so, but I think such a generalization without closer examination, misses the true marks that might be gleaned by comparing actions with words. jmho Mary. Best wishes !
Do not kick yourself too hard, in my experience they wouldn't have listened anyway. They are only interested in their opinions and talking points, especially if their source is Faux News. When I come up against peeps like that I just nod and walk away.
Refuting wild claims about Biden’s mental state is usually energy wasted on people willing to bring that up in the first place; they are not serious individuals
Better to respond, “so, how’s that trickle down been working for you personally, seen any of that billionaire money in your checking account lately?”
You’ll probably have to explain “trickle down” to them though… more wasted energy
Ditto Charlotte. Since the vaccine and then Covid, my memory has been greatly affected. I know they're full of crap but I can't remember details to give it back to them. It is extremely frustrating.
I feel validated by your comment. Thanks. I am confident in my abilities in most things, but - as all these comments show - the slippery slope of maintaining high ground in a place where I insist on being a kind, ethical, thoughtful and thought provoking democrat (to prove we exist) can feel treacherous.
Over the weekend, I found myself stuck when someone recited Fox News talking points at my face. In panic at my own weakness, I was not able to retrieve all that I know from Heather Cox Richardson about the successes of this administration. I did refute the dementia claim with a simple question: how do you know he has dementia? I walked away from the conversation frustrated with myself because I had not memorized the truth that is in this letter today. Now I will.
I think many of us are trying to figure out how to respond to the Fox "News" sound bites. A Republican Trump loving friend asked me what we were going to do about voter suppression in Arizona. We're in Texas and that is now two years old! She asked me what I thought about it. Fortunately, I came up with an answer that made her think a bit. I told her I was concerned that the people who did the audit in AZ were not qualified and did not know how to do an audit. That was new information to her that she did try to digest. Years ago I owned property in Maricopa County. Those "auditors" ruined all the voter machines to the point they can't be used again costing the taxpayers in Maricopa County something like a million dollars to replace. If I were still paying taxes there I would be livid. We're all trying to figure out how to make conversation without getting pulled into the conspiracy theories. I recommend attending the webinars with the Research Collaborative. https://researchcollaborative.org/our-team They test messaging to see how it works. In most cases it seems to make about a 3% difference in how people would vote. With all the tight races that can make all the difference. Here with the community we have reading Heather's Letters is a great place to share what works and what doesn't. Anat Shenker-Osorio is a brilliant communicator. Here is her website: https://www.asocommunications.com/ She is also one of the principal presenters on the Research Collaborative webiars. She shows you what words and messages are stronger -- such as Trump Republicans or MAGA Republicans is stronger than saying Republicans or Extremists. Another example is "Protect our freedoms" or "Ensure the will of the people prevails" rather than "defend our democracy" or "protect our democracy" -- why? - because democracy is an abstraction. I understand your frustration; my brother is a Tea Party type. The main thing we agree on is not to let politics get in the way of our love for each other. We're all struggling with this but I have a lot of hope that we'll make a difference just by trying! And, we are going to win this!
Thank you Cathy. Caring nothing about being redundant, I love the way you think. As always, awesome input !
Thank you for your kind words, D4N. I also loved your response about speaking calmly. It reminded of a time when I needed to talk to a senior VP in the corporation I worked for (a highly ethical fortune 100 technology company) where I could sense he didn't want to hear what I needed to say. It was like a wall between us. I decided to speak calmly and quietly and slip under his wall. It worked! I also like Ruth Bader Ginsberg quote: "Reacting in anger or annoyance will not advance one's ability to persuade."
I recently bought a sweatshirt/hoodie from Penzeys Spices: On the back it says: "Kindness can't simply sit down because anger has stood up." I have several MAGA folks in my extended family--young ones, too--and have had some success with calmness on things we do agree about so that I can slide some reality talk onto the table.
Looooove Penzeys!
I gave that to my sister for Christmas!
You always have the right words Cathy. Truly, I seek out your responses....
Fabulous, Cathy.
🗽
Thank you Cathy, this is so helpful! Off to view the website, meanwhile, I'm now working to protect our freedoms and ensure that the will of the people prevails!" What scares me a tiny bit about the second phrase about the will of the people is, "which people?" Back to working at the state and local levels....one postcard/conversation/person at a time!
I’m joining a webinar Tuesday night addressing this very point via Younify.org titled Faith or Fear. I’m hoping to pick up strategies for discussions whose decibel levels remain sane.
many thanks. I see you are widely appreciated here. I don't see comments often, but I will review them regularly now. Appreciate you.
Good message, Cathy. I quibble about using "Protect our freedoms" as a motto because the MAGA Republicans use "freedom" as a defense for owning assault weapons and other guns, and not wearing masks to protect themselves and others from Covid, etc., etc. One of the best mottos I've read is "When Republicans win, you lose." Or "When Democrats win, you win."
Mim, I'm holding the Republican Party as a whole accountable and have vowed not to vote for any Republican at any level - local, state and federal. Hope this will become a movement. However, the issue of freedom is larger than the two-party bickering. Both parties are extreme one way or the other. I'm an Independent now. Heather Cox Richardson's latest Letter was particularly excellent on how President Biden is steadily working toward the bottom up and middle out economy to address income disparity and strengthen the economy for everyone. And, getting results that are becoming visible now. We still need to address the dark money and overturn Citizens United and the other things the dark money driven Supreme Court is doing which are anti-democracy and pro plutocracy. We all win then even the Republicans who are caught up in the conspiracy theories and Fox sound bites. We, the People, all of us this time!
Great info, Cathy!
Thank you!
Rational people will always be at a loss debating the delusional. I wouldn’t lose sleep over it Charlotte. Just encourage young people and non voters to vote.
Charlotte,
No worries and don't feel bad. Dr. Richardson avoids the one sentence demonization that Fox uses all day long every day ... so ... your weapons are few.
So, you will never have those quick demonization bullets that people who watch Fox have to use from HCR. So, don't try to correct a Fox News lover by disagreeing with any demonization of Biden. They believe Jesus is just about to return tomorrow and all the dead will rise up from the graves and float up to heaven. You CANNOT change their belief. BUT, you can hit on what they DO know to be true.
Their uneducated kid is still living at home working at McDonald's instead of working at Ford making $50 bucks an hour.
So!! you CAN memorize a few things that are true AND that the Fox numbed will understand:
1) We have done trickle down economics for 43 years and during that time all manufacturing left the USA (remember when it was all here?) and all white middle class jobs for those without a college education disappeared as a direct consequence. Hence, trickle down killed the not college educated middle class. DEAD. This is a fact and FOX lovers KNOW IT. Although, it is more complicated than the one sentence, this will do.
2) We have cut taxes on corporations for 43 years which has resulted in? Again, the destruction of those jobs that were formerly for high school educated whites. Those jobs are all gone to Asia. What did that actually result in???? Only a very, very small number of white guys, no smarter than YOU, (you say to them) have benefitted, through gigantic bonuses, from the trickle down/cutting corporate taxes strategy.
Then: you conclude your short and sweet delivery with: IS THAT FAIR TO YOU?? Leave them with that question. Now, this will hit home. I promise.
Even dumb white people know there are no good jobs for their kid that cannot get into the local community college (for whatever reason). So the above, carefully enunciated with good eye contact, will register, however, that will NOT change their minds that Democrats are demons.
Also, The Fox News lovers ALSO know that the white guys at the top of corporations are getting huge bonuses......tie that to Republican policy.
BUT, don't bother trying to convince them that Biden is a good President. Waste of time. Again, that is like trying to get them to believe Satan is a good guy. Never mind they have never seen Satan, heard Satan speak, or know anything about Satan.
Well said!
Thanks Bill.
Mike
Perfect, Mike.
I gave up long ago even trying to present facts to Republicans. Facts don’t matter and will only cause them to fuss and fume. Now what about those space lasers that force the voting machines to give the Democrats more votes? See what I mean?
Stopped banging my head against a wall with Foxers decades ago. Propaganda works. Rupert knows that well
It's not that facts don't matter to them. They believe facts are fake. Try lying to them. They will believe you then.
Lol. Ok.
Trust that I'm aware Jack. The thing I've had to realize, and worse accept, is that there's more than one reason that so many have 'bought in'. I consider them ill folks, and speak my truth of facts in evidence, then walk away. When the public at large chorus is on the same song so to speak, the followers will follow or languish. Speak truth, try not to convince or control is what I've had to learn on many levels.
Even with all the best points fresh in your mind it would be daunting to refute Faux claims. You would likely end up frustrated in any case. Getting the other person to talk about their experience and feelings, rather than attempting to reply sometimes makes the encounter more palatable. At least you gain insight to their mindset, maybe you create an opening for change.
Fox is emotion all the way, facts just confuse their sheep
People tend to vote based on emotion and the Rethug propaganda machine has made good use of this fact.
Charlotte, a little tidbit for you. When someone makes comments that you are in disagreement with, just say “I believe you feel that way.” And then walk away. They will never figure out that you dissed them!
I actually like "I'm sorry you feel that way" Because I want them to know that I don't agree. But I won't engage with them, because as someone else said, delusions, which are fixed ideas that don't respond to evidence or facts, only strengthen if you take them on directly.
And the most powerful ending is to walk away, literally and figuratively. If they need to have their "last word," so be it. It can be directed to my backside or to the silence I leave behind.
Perhaps chuckling as you walk away?
Absolutely!
Simple. Elegant
No muss, no fuss
one dishonest but effective debate tactic used by Trump, etc, which your "someone" used was simply to ask as many questions as possible. This leaves you trying to explain in depth an issue, while they are on to the 10th question. Doesn't matter, of course, how valid the question is. Think of Trump's questioning Obama's citizenship. He just asked the question incessantly, without any proof, and many people thought it was true, simply because of repetition.
So true, don’t answer, ask them back. I used to just say, “where did you hear that.” They would say Fox, I would just smile and say I thought so. Now they won’t say Fox, they learned
Jeri, That exactly how I handle the few I run into. I always ask for specifics. I always get the same answer. “They lie” then I ask “about what?” “Everything”. That’s not an answer. “Exactly what did they lie about?” “Everything”. “I see...” as I walk away shaking my head. “You have no answer .” Usually how it goes...
Most of those type folks are seasoned influencers and / or obsessively faux schooled koolaid guzzlers, defending to the death the mistakes in judgement they've made, but can't bring themselves to admit... sort of like addiction addled. Others, just passionately angry, hateful, resentful. No reasoning with those types. Just speak your truth calmly and walk away - smiling all the while.
Reading this and the resulting comments and I think trying to argue or convince is usually fruitless with these folks. Maybe the best thing is to come up with a succinct stinger along the lines of "You can believe whatever you want, but that doesn't make it true" or "I'd rather be kind than cruel" or "I'd rather think than blindly follow." I don't know, these aren't that good but you get what I mean.
Dear Charlotte, I am reminded of research that shows how Republicans and Democrats have different brain structures and that research points a way to engage the person who is disagreeing with you.
The research showed at 77%+ reliability the a Republican would have a larger amygdala than a Democrat. This part of the brain governs feelings, especially fear. And that a Democrat would have a larger prefrontal cortex which is a thinking part of the brain. One point of the research was to point a way to engage the person with whom you disagree. First find where you do agree and find a way to validate the other person’s concerns. Otherwise you are serving the agenda of keeping us polarised haters.
Dear Mary; I've been aware of 'that' research for a very long time - decades in fact. Pardon that I'm not a total subscriber, yet I'm aware that many take that whole bit comfortably, hook, line, and sinker. I've found in practice that such comfort misleads some to feel a level of smug superiority and some to find it to be a thing worthy of usefulness for the aim of manipulation. Hopefully, you'll not think my thoughts to be any 'arrow' aimed at you; only thoughts to consider in general. As confusing and unsettling as it might be for me, I think folks don't all fit into little boxes that we can honestly and completely simplify in such ways. It's obviously more comforting to do so, but I think such a generalization without closer examination, misses the true marks that might be gleaned by comparing actions with words. jmho Mary. Best wishes !
Do not kick yourself too hard, in my experience they wouldn't have listened anyway. They are only interested in their opinions and talking points, especially if their source is Faux News. When I come up against peeps like that I just nod and walk away.
I can appreciate how you felt, but know that all the facts in the world would not change the mind of a "true believer".
Refuting wild claims about Biden’s mental state is usually energy wasted on people willing to bring that up in the first place; they are not serious individuals
Better to respond, “so, how’s that trickle down been working for you personally, seen any of that billionaire money in your checking account lately?”
You’ll probably have to explain “trickle down” to them though… more wasted energy
Ditto Charlotte. Since the vaccine and then Covid, my memory has been greatly affected. I know they're full of crap but I can't remember details to give it back to them. It is extremely frustrating.
I feel validated by your comment. Thanks. I am confident in my abilities in most things, but - as all these comments show - the slippery slope of maintaining high ground in a place where I insist on being a kind, ethical, thoughtful and thought provoking democrat (to prove we exist) can feel treacherous.
I am printing it out and will carry it around with me, thanks to you, Charlotte.
I can relate to that Char.