This is my first time making a comment. Hi everyone. (But I e been reading these wonderful Heather letters for a while.) I love the practical undramatic way that events are unraveled and placed in the present as well as an historical context.
Tonight I am flummoxed by all the criticism Joe Biden is receiving in the NYT for not placing s…
This is my first time making a comment. Hi everyone. (But I e been reading these wonderful Heather letters for a while.) I love the practical undramatic way that events are unraveled and placed in the present as well as an historical context.
Tonight I am flummoxed by all the criticism Joe Biden is receiving in the NYT for not placing sanctions on Saudi Arabia and leveling no consequences for the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. If you understand all the sides of this, I’d love to know.
Now that we don't need their oil, we ought to let those 7th-century camel fornicators go back to being the desert nomad barbarians they were prior to 1921 when Abdul Azziz created Saudi Arabia. Their "Wahabbi Fundamentalist Islam" IS the jihadi islam we are supposedly fighting in the War on Terror (16 of 19 of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis and it's well known the attack was financed by rich Wahabbis who supported Bin Laden - the hijackers are known to have gotten support and assistance from people in the Saudi embassy in Washington). They are directly responsible for most of the islamic radicalism of the past 30 years, as they have planted Wahabbi schools throughout the islamic world and transformed the religion. I have Muslim friends in Malaya who would personally like to kill every damn Saudi they could find for what those jihadi madrassahs have done to civil society there. Biden was right to call them "pariahs" and it's what we ought to make them. In 30 years, the only "good" Saudi I've ever heard of was Kashoggi, and the ones I have met have not been "good ambassadors" shall we say.
TC as usual giving it to us without the gilded finish. He knows whereof he speaks, however harsh the delivery may appear. I have to agree. Pariahs. Kashoggi being the only good Saudi we know who is in the public eye. I find it amazing that no one in the press ever puts the words “Saudi national“ in front of the name “Osama bin Laden.” I have to assume that the press is muzzled in some way, or the journalists have to avoid talking about Saudi Arabia when discussing 9/11. Maybe it’s the oil industry’s influence, I don’t know. Dick Cheney pulled off one of the biggest scams in recent US history by diverting all the attention away from Saudi Arabia and deflecting to Iraq, a relative non-combatant in the 9/11 plot. The Bush family is all oil money, they’ve been in bed with the Saudi‘s forever, so Georgie was completely motivated to provide cover for them. Oh well. Another nasty event in human history, not like there’s a shortage.
I have to agree, Roland. I remember waking up one day hearing about US going after Iraq and thinking, huh? I couldn't make the connection to 9/11. Surprise! There was no there there.
I had read Shrub, by Molly Ivins a couple of months before 9/11. One of the serious points she made in the book was how obsessed W was about Iraq, and how he wanted to avenge his father, or prove himself to his father... It seemed like he was just looking for an excuse to attack Iraq, and 9/11 provided that opportunity.
But there was a lot of there there with the Saudi's and Bushes. And when we were under NO FLY, guess who was allowed to fly out of America? At least that was what I remember. There was also a very large plane flying very, very low up the CT river, north towards Canada, which many of us called in. We never heard who that airplane belonged to. It did not look military.
I thought exactly the same thing. A few days later, when a group of us were discussing it at the office, another person told me that I was unpatriotic (after explaining why I believed there was no connection). She went on a rant about WMD and other Fox/Cheney yakity yak. If I told her today that those theories had been debunked, she'd be glad to tell me that I'm wrong.
Thanks, Roland, words like that cause wars... And my adopted, ½ Iranian daughter was called a "camel jockey" and worse in high school. It was pure racist by white boys who were not used to being around a nappy-headed, olive complexioned female. When she finally got tired of it, she demonstrated that she wrestle them and pin them to the ground and sit on them. I had to pull her off a couple of times after school at pick-up. Behind the scenes I let her know that I wished I had her spunk and muscle when I was her age. But it is her brilliant brain I wanted her to hone to outdo them. She did hone that, but I think the young bucks stopped teasing her due to her fierce show of strength over them muscle-wise in front of the other young bucks. She did not hurt them, but she embarrassed them, which come to think of it, was using her brain!
Name-calling should be judicially done and factual. We have had a poor role model in our so-called "leader" for the past four years. I myself have gotten suspended on Youtube and and slammed for using the words seditionist, white supremacist, Nazi (...and maybe wanker) in the recent past, but I have facts to back me up. ;-)
Penelope, your daughter sounds aaaMAZing! And I hope she continues to be fierce, as well was developing her intellectual talents: may she succeed with bells on in whatever she does. I agree that racist language should really be out of bounds especially on this platform. But I draw the line at wanker--which is not racist; it is just an accurate description of the behavior of some members of the human race with, um, dangling members. It is a word my students find amusing when I use it to refer to historical figures, but if the shoe fits . . .!
That said, I agree with Roland and TC (for all his usual attempts to out-Jim Wright that plain-speaking Texan). The US alliance with Saudi Arabia has been toxic for the US and many of its other allies and enormously beneficial for Saudi Arabia, which has been able to sustain its stranglehold on politics in the Middle East while continuing to be protected and ignored concerning its enslavement of South Asians and Pacific Islanders (as domestic workers), its virtual enslavement of all women, its abysmal human rights record especially with respect to Muslims who are not adherents of Wahabbism, and its very clear connections to Osama bin Ladin and Al-Qaeda. All but 2 of the 9-11 assassins were Saudis and they had been well protected by the Saudi government. But the Bushes and the Cheneys were in the pockets of the Saudis--and had been for decades--and so they prevented that essential fact from becoming the primary one, instead diverting attention and blame to the execrable--but absolutely blameless in terms of 9-11--Iraqi regime. It was the ultimate bait-and-switch and a playbook for the kinds of misinformation the just-past administration turned into a high art. And it is one reason why, while I appreciate Liz Cheney's condemnation of Drumpf with all my heart, I don't trust her about almost anything else.
Thank you Linda. The only thing I would add is that the Saudi elites, all those multi millionaires supposedly related to each other, are vicious and medieval in their ability to backstab each other and do incredibly dirty and violent things to each other. I only pray I never come back in a family like that, I would disown them. We are so blessed and so naïve in America. Except for maybe the mob, or a few other groups hiding under rocks, we don’t see the kind of vicious murderous behavior that people like MBS and his relatives engage in amongst themselves. In that way, they do resemble the royals of history.
Ok, I’m back. I was working at the LA warehouse. Penelope I have to respond to you first, and this is also for Reid. Listen, if you guys think I’m being an apologist for TC, and that me or him need to be raked over the coals, by all means say so. I am not conflict averse. I happen to think TC is not racist, otherwise I would not be nearly so forgiving. As a truck driver believe me, I have had more than one white a—h—-e talk to me in confidence as a fellow white boy about ragheads or whatever racist terminology was coming out of their potty mouth. I don’t mind profanity where it’s justified, but I do not tolerate racist terminology for the sake of being racist. However, any of you reading this may have a different take, and by all means don’t put up with anything you don’t want to put up with. I doubt very much that TC uses the term camel-anything anywhere else in life except online where he is protected by his anonymity. If I were him, I would be perfectly clear that I am talking about the Saudi elite that deserve those insults, not the Saudi people as a whole. That’s the difference. OK, I’m done defending myself. If you think I’m full of it, don’t hold back. And of course Penelope I think your daughter is way cool.
Oh, Roland, you misunderstood my comment. I loved that you asked readers to "look past the fornicator part." I wish I was as succinct as you and TPC can be. My comment was more about TC's unnecessary use of the racist statement.
The story of my daughter was is an example of how people of color have to cope with racial ignorance in America. And though she is amazing and I admire her, there are invisible scars. I have always told her that some people are just jealous because she is a Golden Child and beautifully exotic. I know the scars from just being a white woman dealing with sexism, male lack of control, and deeply inhibited freedom to walk alone in certain places such as the woods or the sand dunes of a deserted beach. Yet, I am still of privileged color.
But, add darker pigment to the skin of a woman. No way of blending in and being unseen. So, they have to be stronger, smarter, more courageous, more able to ignore idiots. I am a privileged little peanut compared to my darker daughter and my black/brown/yellow female peers. But the atrocities committed on my paternal Cherokee side, only evident in my cheekbones, vies with the Daughter of the American Revolution on my maternal side.
Within me is the oppressed and the oppressor. It keeps me awake and vigilant. It prevents me from feeling the word "Patriotic" because of the genocide of my ancestors by my other ancestors.
And I like that the complexity of the world is inside of my body, and I believe, helps the light of my burning flame of justice stay balanced and empathic. I am no better than anyone else, because I am Everyone. (Whoa! Deep hunh?)
Anyway, I am not sure if that is what makes me able to stand up and fight for justice when anyone is treated unfairly or has a knee on their neck. And that is exactly why I feel like a pit bull surrounding these Seditionists who have acted against our country. I am not about to let go of them paying the consequences of their actions against our country.
For the first time, I feel a sense of patriotism, thanks to He Who Shall Not Be Named and his GOP cult. When I traveled across country here, after having traveled in most of the countries of Europe. I was awakened for the first time of how small the scale of Europe actually is compared to that of the USA. I visited Mount Rushmore for the first time and got a real perspective.
What we are trying to do here in this Great Experiment on this giant landmass Under One Government. I stood there and read the Declaration of Independence, in awe and tears, under all those flags of our nation. (30 of the 43-44 Euro countries can fit into the USA).
My heart broke open for this country, despite its colonial foundation of cruel genocide and slavery. There is something here unlike any other country on our planet. And that is HOPE. That we can do what others cannot or are even interested in. But the world knows what we are attempting to do and many of them want to live here, too.
We are indigenous people, and people from around the world—born here, dragged here, emigrated here or seeking asylum here from dictators and warlords. We encompass so many traditions, languages, religious beliefs (or not), skin colors and ancestral histories. Does everyone understand how remarkable this Thing is we are trying to LIVE (warts and all)? We are participating in the most beautiful (sometimes very painful) thing and we need to help our children understand that and participate in it with us. Because we ALMOST LOST IT. And the lives and deaths our our indigenous people, our slaves and our soldiers better well be damned worth it all to be here with our freedoms today.
Okay, okay, this feeling I am experiencing right now must be what a real Patriot feels like, I suppose, so I now own it— thanks to these fricking Seditionists who have revealed to me to my Self. I now own the mantel of an "Patriot": a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors (and I add seditionists/oppressors). But I will never be blinded by that mantel and how we got here, and the path ahead.
Roland, you are astute, kind and tolerant. Nothing to apologize for. TC steps over the line at times and someone always calls him out. We police ourselves quite well on this forum.
Your daughter sounds like a true young woman of TODAY! Good for her. Its a shame that many children lack her confidence! Two of my granddaughters do not!
Hi Penelope— the smartest friend I have had for about 43 years occasionally reminds me of the fact that we humans are animals continually evolving. I get it and it helps me to comprehend the outrageous behavior of some humans.
At some point you might even have a laugh, Penelope, with your daughter as the Camel Jockey's in the Arab world actually can make a great deal of money. They are mostly young Pakistani boys who are treated like champion jockey's in Europe or America....as long as they stay firmly in the shadow of one royal haras or another and don't try to run away.
Interesting, Stuart! She is now of an age where I think she might laugh. I never really told her how clever one must be to ride a camel, at speed, and stay on and not injured...you know, down below!
Well, again, I liked that Roland politely asked us to not focus on the racist statement and look at the content of what TC was saying. We all know that TCinLA lets loose sometimes. Rather than slapping him down, I told a family story about racism, that I hope was educational for him, or someone. It was safer than sicking my daughter on him!
I guess I will defend TC as well altho I once also took him to task for hurling a rude insult to another poster. However his indecorous comments about 7th Century desert nomad barbarians – applying it to the very current actions of the Crown Prince’s barbarism didn’t bother me. As you said, maybe “boys will be boys.” However, that puts us into the archaic dichotomy of language too impolite to speak in the presence of ladies. I come from the counter-culture era when that was completely abandoned and “ladies” could be as foul-mouthed as the guys.
Personally, I find it cathartic to express my feelings honestly. I have been calling #45 an Asswipe for years (along with other Repugnants). I occasionally do a verbal impression of Samuel L. Jackson when really upset. Venting may be a way to let off steam. Notice the description by neighbors of most serial killers after they were caught – “He was always such a nice, quiet, polite man.”
Yes words cause wars. Camel jockey is only 1 of the very offensive terms being used on this thread. And the fact that TCLA doesn’t seem to be as popular as others who are posting hateful rhetoric is just as disturbing. Let’s attack TCLA but not others.
Let's just say that expletives have a cultural context and this particular one is quite common-place in middle eastern parlance. In France, one of the less interesting additions to the French Culture that has been offered by descendants of Arab immigration is "Nique ta mère" used to fend off any criticism of some otherwise unacceptable street aggressivity. The best translation would be "Go F*uck your mother". It is somewhat interesting to speculate whether in the minds of the perpetrating users, they consider Oedipian relations to be worse than Zoophilia.
You are attempting to justify a bigoted characterization with false equivalencies and arguments about how other countries say bad things to each other? Bigotry is bigotry and should be unacceptable to us.
Hmmmm..we’ll they like to think they’re so sexually sophisticated that it’s ok to take advantage of underaged humans. I think they lump it all together equally. I have a French sister in law whose father abused her sisters children. He admitted to the whole family. As she explained to me — it’s common.
100%, Kay. Roland is commendably fair-minded, but I prefer insights without insults from TCinLA.
On my FIRST DAY here TC told me to "Go f--- yourself, you millennial f---wit." I almost canceled my subscription on the spot, but received reassurance from Substack that he's monitored as abusive.
It's not just the insupportable vulgarity, bigotry and insults. The frequent violent fantasies and suggestions to harm others are frankly unnerving. and just look at today's LFAA; a single crack about camels sends the discussion careening off track. This is bad trouble, not good trouble.
TPJ, I agree 100%. TC has much to contribute but his many descents into abusive language—and his cruelty toward others in this community—leave me less than inclined to admire his talents as a writer. He reminds me of a former boyfriend... brilliant but quickly former because of a drinking problem and a temper. TC is looking more and more like that inconsiderate bully. Thank you for calling out persistent bad behavior.
“On my FIRST DAY here TC told me to "Go f--- yourself, you millennial f---wit." I almost canceled my subscription on the spot,”
Wow, I forgot about that. The guy who professes to despise Trump is just as bad and usually much worse in his insulting behavior. I’m sorry TPJ, that totally sucks. I’m starting to think that I’ve been acting like a schmuck. The problem is we don’t have a search feature: I can’t go back and review just how many times, and just how viciously, TC has been derogatory. He’s like the homeless guy on the street corner who is ranting and making nasty insults nonstop. The problem is that I have a bad habit sometimes of being loving and kind to someone even when they don’t deserve it anymore. I’m not surprised that Kay Ingram mistakes that for the white boy protecting the other white boy, it can sure look that way.
OBL was stripped of his Saudi citizenship in 1994, years before Sept 11 and his later demise. He was arguably still Saudi, but definitely not a Saudi national while the world was aware of him.
Yes, Liz. Here in MA we benefited from Marty's stewardship as Boston Globe editor. Ironically, his reputation owes much to Liev Schreiber's performance in Spotlight along with his own work.
This is racist and should be deleted. There is no place for this kind of bigotry here. You entirely undermine the talking points you present when you use that language.
It is racist. But read through many, many more comments here and they are just as bad regarding how Saudis are being described and referenced. Commenters forget that there is an a tire nation of citizens under oppression in the KSA. It’s wrong to assume that all Saudis mirror the leaders we hear about through MSM.
It's because his comment so closely echoes a 19C bigot. You and I had a tense exchange a couple of weeks ago, but I came away from it respecting you. Keep the comments coming.
I commented that I wouldn't travel to SA, because of the way that women are treated. If the leadership was different, that would change my opinion. It has nothing to do with race.
However, having lived and socialized amongst the Saudis (children, women and men) I learned so much about their culture, religious beliefs, and government. Why not learn up close and personal about other cultures and beliefs? Aside from that, the Arabian desert and other geographical regions (i.e. farming, sustainable living, dairy) is absolutely amazing.
I envy you the opportunity to do that. Were you allowed to go out unescorted, drive, etc.? Of course, living there full time and having the opportunity to forge relationships lends a very different cast to the experience. My perspective in going as a tourist, and knowing how oppressed their citizens are, and not knowing the intricacies of their customs, I'd worry about running afoul through my ignorance. The closest parallel I can think of is that on a trip to China, I chatted with a young woman who was our tour guide on a day trip. I recall telling her how much I was enjoying her commentary, and asked if she'd ever been to the US. Immediately, her entire demeanor changed, she looked nervously at a man who was on tour with us, although clearly a local and not a tourist, and she ended up not responding, and avoided me for the rest of the tour. My husband and I assumed that the man was a government watchdog, and was observing us and some other tourists because of information on our visas about occupations, etc. We had been warned by people familiar with tourism in China that our hotel room would be wired and we'd be observed while visiting. Rather unsettling.
Not sure what you're getting at with your response here. I can't delete TC's comment. I was only mentioning that there's a ton of pretty awful comments throughout this thread today regarding Saudi's. And again, I'm coming at this as a person who lived in the KSA. I'm talking about the citizens. NOT the brutal governmental leaders or religious police. There are a lot of generalizations here today.
Apologies for not being clear, Tricia; I amended the previous comment. The delete suggestion is for moderators at Substack. Subscribers can delete only their own comments. You are 100% right about stereotyped remarks on the Middle East.
Thank you TCînLA! Perhaps betrayal is why GWB had such a quizzical look on his face when he first heard the news on 9/11. I’ve never forgotten that image. ❤️🤍💙
I have nothing profound to contribute here. “Follow the money” has most often been a true factor in so much body politic. But, coincidentally, I came across a photo of my daughter from 9/15/2001 where she and her friends had set up a lemonade stand with a sign that said “all money goes to Red Cross.” Remember those days of care and concern for fellow citizens? My daughter turns 30 next month and I am pulling together an album/scrap book as her gift. It started out as a plan to choose a photo from each birthday to mark the years. Seeing that photo of the Red Cross effort from a 10-year old and her friends caused me pause. She is the same empathetic individual to this day, did social work for troubled Alaskan youth using wilderness environs to teach transferable skills to every day life. She was incredibly frustrated, and disappointed, at the beginning of the pandemic when the simple act of community care was to wear a mask but it became so political. Not sure how this fits with today’s comments, but thought it interesting that 9/11 was brought up, and I had just come across that photo.
"go back to being the desert nomad barbarians they were prior to 1921 when Abdul Azziz created Saudi Arabia" (with apologies to Omar Sharif)......with a little help from their friends, Laurence of Arabia and the Allied powers fighting the Ottoman Empire, bedfellow of Kaiser Wilhelm. I think things will get a little cooler in the Alliance and a "more acceptable" face will be put on the Saudi regime, which will only thinly mask the reality. It's another case of my enemy's enemy i'm afraid as well as the financial heft of what is left of their oil riches. Given that they are now unfreezing relations with Isreal, this report is not likely to be allowed to get in the way of dealing with Iran.
With oil/gas going up in price, I think the Saudi's are doing just fine currently and we don't currently have the green infrastructure in place to not need oil. Additionally, looking at Germany who invested quite a bit into their green/renewable infrastructure shows it is not robust enough to serve their needs which is why they are all in on the Russian pipeline which is about 90% completed. Imagine being dependent upon Russia for your energy needs. So I believe Saudi Arabia will still be relevant as a large player/option in the energy sector. Incidentally, if we are going to reindustrialize to decrease our dependence and exposure to China, our energy needs will only increase.
And Germany needs desperately to phase out their pollution disaster aging brown coal (lignite) burning stations which they had to resuscitate after "courageously" and quickly shutting down their nuclear capacity.
Take out some of the colorful descriptors you’ve used here and I agree with your brief historical analysis of the kingdom. Having lived in Saudi for 10 years and studied its culture, government, and propaganda up close and personal, I feel for its citizens. The Saudis I knew and socialized with were not jihadists or radicals — those would be the religious police, the government leaders, the ultra wealthy who removed their ghutras on a flight out of the kingdom and once out of Saudi airspace and downed Glenlivet like water. Those in power and much like we see in our own nation, right?
If you look close enough and long enough, you can see parallels. And God help us if Trump is re-elected in 2024 and Kushner reasserts himself and his friendship with BSM. There is a chance BSM will be king eventually.
Given the chance I’d return to live in KSA for the rest of my life if I could. I’d love to immerse myself in international human rights again. Especially children and women.
On a side note, ‘The Kingdom: Arabia and the House of Sa’ud’ is worth reading.
Bullseye, Tricia. Lacey's The Kingdom was my early intro to Saudi Arabia. Iranians and Saudis in their millions yearn to be unmolested by their governments and fully participate in the modern world.
I got to thinking a bit and MBS was 14-years-old when I lived in KSA. At the time something like 55% of the male population was under the age of 18 and I remember being briefed by the Saudi consulate about the significance of that fact and what could happen to the country over the next 20 years or so. Those words ring pretty true today. I won't drop names in a public forum like this but we socialized with people who knew things and did things. It was a foreign world to me, literally and figuratively, but I learned a lot about international politics. And cultures and peoples of course. I'm not Saudi defender but those years in the KSA taught me a lot. As did my life abroad in general. I've never been happy living in the USA since returning. We are such a shallow people. Myself included.
Perhaps you need to find more diverse people to hang out with who are not like you. Do you know people who make less than $40,000 per year? That would be 50% of the U.S. adult population.
The racist and rude rhetoric that TC uses should not tarnish your view of the kingdom. See my comment up thread but having lived and worked in Saudi for 10 years, I’d go back in a minute. Beautiful country. Beautiful and suppressed people. The government, religious police, propaganda, and jihads are barbaric — and some of their practices mirror what the Trump administration was trying to do .. and successfully in some ways.
I've felt for years that many Americans don't venture beyond our shores, because there truly is so much to see and do here. However, travel helps to broaden one's horizons. It's too easy to stereotype people, based on someone else's interpretation. We would all benefit from leaving our comfort zone. Perhaps this is the reason that Europeans and Asians are more open-minded and sophisticated in many ways, and also explains the "ugly American," who is so comfortable with feeling entitled and superior.
So true, with the same feeling here. We can travel so far, see so much, yet never leave America. It lowers the horizon over the rest of the world. We are not the whole world.
PS, any fans of Rick Steves' Europe here? It's a fun, fine stand-in until we can travel again.
TP, I have an Indian acquaintance who was born in Zambia and now lives here. Do you have any information about the origins of Indians' arrival in Zambia?
VERY briefly, there is a millennium-long South Asian presence in the East African coast, Red and Arabian Seas. Also a corresponding but smaller African presence across the Indian Ocean.
Large-scale migration began in the 19C, bringing indentured labor for sugar in Natal, and the railroad in Kenya. From there "Indians" (millions are Africans now for several generations) spread inland, and into commerce, business and other middling occupations. Success as a market-dominant minority has drawn a reputation for sharp dealing, and discriminatory laws and treatment in several African countries, some expelling them altogether.
The feature film "Mississippi Masala" is a marvelous look at "Indian" immigrants, from Ugandan exile to settling in America. Watch and discuss with your acquaintance. If you want good friends, have African friends. Cheers!
K Chaudhuri, Trade & Civilisation in the Indian Ocean
F&L Dotson, Indian Minority of Zambia, Rhodesia, Malawi
I add my welcome. This is a highly talented and civil group.
Non-expert here. Big grain of salt needed. I think unreservedly that this is very canny behavior by Biden and Co.
It’s measured and nuanced. Biden no doubt realized that his days of talking only with the King are numbered. He is 85 and losing his grip mentally. There was debate as to how much of the conversation he even understood.
The Saudis know Biden knows that. So I would say it’s even more of a slap in the face to MBS that Biden choose to talk with a leader with dementia over the presumptive heir. No doubt that would sting MBS, given what we know about him.
To an extent Biden can only do so much in re-litigating the past - with Khashoggi, with the Russians, and with the war on Yemen. The Times, I believe it was, had an article in which an expert said that Yemen could be facing the worst humanitarian crisis ever seen. That sounds hyperbolic to me - it would have to go some to surpass the Holodomor - but nonetheless this is a *current* situation - one which the US may wish to ameliorate. Stepping on the toes of MBS (with whom he will surely be dealing in the not too distant future) as he did is a stark warning. The big guns (so to speak) can be held in abeyance.
I feel exactly as sanguine about his first shot across the bow with Russia. He spoke softly, but indicated the big stick.
I think America is back - in a measured but resolute way. Time will tell if he follows through with consistency, but this is a good start.
Now, if we could only deal firmly and swiftly with our own most refractory citizens.
Welcome! At this time of night, it’s usually the people living in Europe, the night owls in America, and people in the US who are working a night shift like me. I’m in California working a night shift as a truck driver. I’ll get back to you with a comment on your question about Biden and MBS, but chances are there will be lots of other people replying to you.
Good morning, Roland. I’m an early riser in SoCal, up at 4:30 am so I can read HRC and fellow readers’ illuminating posts before caring for my husband and trying to get some writing work done. Thanks to you and so many others, I learn so much I’d spend hours searching for elsewhere. Today was especially helpful re Saudi Arabia.
Morning Roland! I am glad to say that after a brutal week I managed to get a decent night's sleep! I hope you have had a safe night shift and that you have a restful weekend!
ACK! I just tried it to the rhythms of "Hernando's Hideaway" and IT WORKS!! You've forever ruined the poem for me...or maybe "Hernando's Hideaway" will never be the same!! ;-)
I love that poem, even though my wife and I once abused it by having a group chant it to the tune of Fernando's Hideaway while we danced what was meant to be a comic tango.
Yes. I know Frost’s poetry from high school a capella choir singing. There was a music arranger who turned several of the poems into choral music. Hauntingly beautiful before I understood the deeper meanings. The Road Not Taken was another we sang. I understood that 😊
Welcome aboard, Bonnie. Don't let this be your last comment.
Hopefully today's steps are just the first from Biden (at least with SA more than Syrian bombings). Apart from progressive sanctions, the admin is adopting a careful, painstaking approach toward security threats and major crimes, whether committed in the Middle East, at American military bases, or the US Capitol grounds. I say take the necessary time to build rock-solid prosecutions, then lower the boom. Boom!
It is very frustrating that MBS seemed to get a slap on the wrist. I imagine, however, there may be something happening in the backroom that we don’t know about. Biden will only converse with the King and apparently he told him that their country’s violations of human rights will not be tolerated and the possibility of sanctions are there. I don’t get why those sanctions weren’t enforced immediately when Biden took ownership.
I think Biden is giving the King a chance to discipline his son or something himself, rather than going straight to sanctions or other heavy-duty reactions. There's more than one way to get results.
Nice Laura! MBS is only 35. Spoiled rotten I’m sure, like any lifetime multimillionaire. Gets away with murder and all kinds of other nasty misdeeds. The Saudi elites, with some individual exceptions, as a group are rotten to the core. They understand the Bushes’ and Trumps’ greedy selfish ways. What they don’t understand is principled Americans. They are scared of America, because they see what happened to Saddam. They know we could regime-change them in a heartbeat if we wanted to. Don’t believe the royalty crap. It’s a self-imposed label. They are as Royal as my Royal vacuum cleaner from the 80s.
Ibn Saud was a warlord who crushed his opponents, ruthlessly exploited resources at hand, and placed a crown on his own head. (Come to think of it, that's true for most founders of dynasties.) The House of Saud, with its connections to Wahhabism, marks a century-long rupture in more longstanding patterns of religious and political authority in the Arabian peninsula. It succeeds with oil money, military force, co-opting an elite, and the cachet that comes with guarding Islam's Holy Places. That is no formula for longterm stability. The brutal war in Yemen may be contained through international efforts, or it may commence a great unraveling in Arabia -- something the world cannot afford. Nothing is guaranteed.
PS, Yemen, with its shattered health system, damaged civil society, and poor monitoring and data-keeping, is potentially a monumental global health risk. It's the kind of state where diseases, including Covid-19, become endemic, survive and burst out in future pandemic or epidemic outbreaks.
They are so scared that they come and go as they please, spend a lot of time in the US, use the Mayo clinic etc as if they own it (which they could do), invest in real estate in New York and elsewhere......just as they do in Paris and London. Money talks!
I love the vacuum cleaner metaphore......and they are just as efficient in their running of their country....leaving dirt everywhere. What they do efficiently however is hoover up the money we pay them for the oil making sure that nothing remains on the ground and all stays firmly stuck to their magic flying carpet all the way back to Western Banks etc.
I remember my first contracts in Nigeria...the locals said that in 1974 it cost $100 million to get rid of a dictater and by the time I last went in 1992 it cost $1 Billion and none of the oil money to this day ever touches the African shore. Quid erat demonstrandum! (QED)
I knew a couple who lived in Saudi Arabia for years on a consultancy basis. The wife told me that at a dinner party she asked a question pertaining to the status of women and the man explained simply that it’s because women don’t have souls ...bone chilling.
Friends of mine lived in Abu Dhabi on contrat to develop and run the port. They complained ..tongue in cheek..that they had to get a permit to buy alcohol; the permit allowed them to order a truck load. Hypocracy rampant!
Not all Muslim sects are quite so blatant but this was and continues to be a debate in theological circles. Of course, it was also a debate in early Christianity, too . . .
Can you imagine what evil can be justified by the belief that someone, including all women, does not have a soul? With all due respect to Mecca, I don’t think Saudi Arabia society is a Mecca for anything else. I don’t think anybody in their right mind would think of it as a tourist destination.
I'm not worried about the "royalty" of the king, or how spoiled his son indubitably is. His son is still his subject, and he has been extraordinarily ruthless in the past even with family members who created trouble for either the king or the kingdom. MBS has done both, and who knows what will happen. I think Biden has made it clear that something will if MBS isn't dealt with.
He has myriads of Brothers and Sisters who are extremely wary of him. A coup against him by the opportunistic and threatenedfamily members is more likely than a decision by the father. MBS has spent much of his energy trying to make sure this doesn't happen....putting the family in jail as fast as he can expose their own corruption....without touching his own of course. This is entirely normal in a dictatership.....and the reason why male Pharoah of ancient Egypt married their sisters and vice-versa....old as the hills. Killing each other is the only way they can advance in this system.
Today's power politicking may be even more sharp-elbowed than we realize. MBS is King Salman's third heir in six years since he ascended the throne. While he appears strong now, he's faced serious opposition in the past, not least within the royal family. Wishful thinking for the demise of a monster? Sure. But given America's long record of foreign intervention, and Biden's vast experience in arm-twisting, MBS's coronation is hardly guaranteed. We shall see. Be surprised at nothing.
In this case, I think Biden's reputation for being a benign grandfather is serving him well. He smiles, reasons, cajoles, but beneath all of that, I'm beginning to see that he knows all the angles and has the steely resolve to manipulate all of them when necessary. He was undervalued for decades.
Roland, that is so nice of you! I love all of your commentary, too - especially when you stop to clean up some of TC's colorful language, which I love, too. I should have added to my earlier post that I also undervalued Biden - my bad.
Yes, nothing would surprise me and what chance would there be that whatever sibling/relative who might dethrone MBS would be any better? Seems the system itself, a "royal" dictatorship propped up by religious tribalism, is the problem.
MBS is an outrageous criminal against humanity, and even Mr Khashoggi's cruel demise pales compared to the horrific war in Yemen. Let's take our chances with almost any other Saudi prince. As my dad said decades ago, If people do something wrong they should be punished. "Let justice be done though the heavens may fall!"
But why is it the American government's job to punish this criminal? Let them take care of their own. Biden has performed an excellent chess move here. Stop arms sales. Make USA position on Yemen known. Refuse to talk to any Saudi official aside from the King.
I would love MBS to face his karma in terms of both Kashoggi and Yemen but this is a huge decision for the king and he is tough but MBS will not go down easily.
I read this on Wikipedia: "The current ruler of Saudi Arabia is King Salman, who succeeded King Abdullah on his death on 23 January 2015. On the same day, Prince Muqrin became Crown Prince only to be replaced three months later by Muhammad bin Nayef at the order of Salman.
On the morning of 21 June 2017, Muhammad bin Nayef was deposed as Crown Prince and Salman's son Mohammad bin Salman was appointed to the position. The current crown prince is a grandson of Ibn Saud, the second of his generation to be officially placed first in the line of succession. The Allegiance Council was created in 2006 to facilitate the royal transfer of power."
Don’t know how many sons he has or how they keep track of sons with their harems but I’m betting MBS isn’t the one he loves best just thought he was the one who’d take charge.
Yes, MBS does have serious opposition within the royal family. Remember, he had members detained. The lust for power commonly runs stronger than the ties of blood. The man is evil, probably why Trump got along with him so well.
I would even go farther and say Biden might be giving the King a chance to name a new Crown Prince. Although if I remember correctly MBS has consolidated his power and a considerable portion of the wealth to himself.
Exactly. Biden is showing respect (whether you agree that is the way to approach this or not) to the Saudis culture and practices. I respect and fully understand what Biden is doing here and I think much of the world leaders feel the same.
I’m not sure where I heard this but I believe the State Department has evidence of the planes MBS used in flying in the assassins to Turkey. I think it’s all going to come out soon— the mountain of evidence that DT was concealing so he and Jared could cozy up to MBS and the Arab oil money.
They’re cooking something up that they’re not telling us about yet. I agree Marlene. I also have a sneaking suspicion that there are all kinds of communications taking place that are not part of that official Biden talk with the king.
Yes to this. And to the basic idea that citizens rarely know what is going on in real time. It will be more clear in about 25 years. Thank goodness for the “kitten in string “ skills of HCR! We at least have clues.
Yes, I agree. While it would have been extremely edifying to see this autocratic murderer get his comeuppance publicly and immediately, SA is still a very powerful ally in an unstable region. Biden can afford to make it clear that MBS needs to be curbed by the king (I assume one of the conditions is that he will no longer be the designated crown prince) and then wait to see what happens. He still has direct sanctions in his pocket if he needs them.
New here commenting, hello all. I’d read intel chief and intervention squad WERE sanctioned by Joe now. Why is no sanctions claimed? Because the king himself was not sanctioned? Please clear this up for a confused seeker. Thanks.
Hello, and welcome to Heather’s Cafe! I am not as knowledgeable about this issue, but you will find a big batch of very intelligent and well-read folks here that will surely answer all your questions and provide links and sources to everything you may want to know.
I read the Nytimes every day and think that what you are referring to has to do with timing. Biden now has made a reversal in terms of foreign diplomacy. So under DT the State Department was part of the so called deep state and he did everything he could to dismantle it. Biden has returned to the traditional protocols. So the NYTIMES correct reported when there were no sanctions and now Biden has clearly signaled this is changing.
The information from the investigation has just been released and is new to most people. Perhaps Biden is giving the King a chance to do the right thing with the prince. It is a crime that happened there and during the former president.
Hi Bonnielou. Welcome to the participation of thoughts side of HCR’s letters. I’m also a fan of the way HCR blends current events with historical content, and she never fails to bring my heart rate down after watching the, hair on fire, news.
I’ll let more intellectual opinion writers answer your question about NYT criticism on Biden’s decision, but my first thought was, whaaaat? That’s it? Not even one tiny sanction?
Welcome! I’ve commented a few times throughout this thread today and especially in Saudi being that I lived and worked in the kingdom for 10 years. So my perspective on news about the KSA comes from personal insight. I’d suggest reading (or listening to since it’s on audio now) ‘The Kingdom: Arabia and the House of Sa’ud’.
From what I perused, it was written in 2009 and based on his time there for about 3 years. Just ordered a copy. Interested in his perceptions and how things have changed since I left. The Kingdom was written in 1982.
This is my first time making a comment. Hi everyone. (But I e been reading these wonderful Heather letters for a while.) I love the practical undramatic way that events are unraveled and placed in the present as well as an historical context.
Tonight I am flummoxed by all the criticism Joe Biden is receiving in the NYT for not placing sanctions on Saudi Arabia and leveling no consequences for the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. If you understand all the sides of this, I’d love to know.
Now that we don't need their oil, we ought to let those 7th-century camel fornicators go back to being the desert nomad barbarians they were prior to 1921 when Abdul Azziz created Saudi Arabia. Their "Wahabbi Fundamentalist Islam" IS the jihadi islam we are supposedly fighting in the War on Terror (16 of 19 of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis and it's well known the attack was financed by rich Wahabbis who supported Bin Laden - the hijackers are known to have gotten support and assistance from people in the Saudi embassy in Washington). They are directly responsible for most of the islamic radicalism of the past 30 years, as they have planted Wahabbi schools throughout the islamic world and transformed the religion. I have Muslim friends in Malaya who would personally like to kill every damn Saudi they could find for what those jihadi madrassahs have done to civil society there. Biden was right to call them "pariahs" and it's what we ought to make them. In 30 years, the only "good" Saudi I've ever heard of was Kashoggi, and the ones I have met have not been "good ambassadors" shall we say.
TC as usual giving it to us without the gilded finish. He knows whereof he speaks, however harsh the delivery may appear. I have to agree. Pariahs. Kashoggi being the only good Saudi we know who is in the public eye. I find it amazing that no one in the press ever puts the words “Saudi national“ in front of the name “Osama bin Laden.” I have to assume that the press is muzzled in some way, or the journalists have to avoid talking about Saudi Arabia when discussing 9/11. Maybe it’s the oil industry’s influence, I don’t know. Dick Cheney pulled off one of the biggest scams in recent US history by diverting all the attention away from Saudi Arabia and deflecting to Iraq, a relative non-combatant in the 9/11 plot. The Bush family is all oil money, they’ve been in bed with the Saudi‘s forever, so Georgie was completely motivated to provide cover for them. Oh well. Another nasty event in human history, not like there’s a shortage.
I have to agree, Roland. I remember waking up one day hearing about US going after Iraq and thinking, huh? I couldn't make the connection to 9/11. Surprise! There was no there there.
I had read Shrub, by Molly Ivins a couple of months before 9/11. One of the serious points she made in the book was how obsessed W was about Iraq, and how he wanted to avenge his father, or prove himself to his father... It seemed like he was just looking for an excuse to attack Iraq, and 9/11 provided that opportunity.
always the argument that the father didn't finish the job. The father had more sense.
But there was a lot of there there with the Saudi's and Bushes. And when we were under NO FLY, guess who was allowed to fly out of America? At least that was what I remember. There was also a very large plane flying very, very low up the CT river, north towards Canada, which many of us called in. We never heard who that airplane belonged to. It did not look military.
Our government facilitated the operation that flew out the entire bin Laden family
"A Lannister (Bush) always pays his debts."
I thought exactly the same thing. A few days later, when a group of us were discussing it at the office, another person told me that I was unpatriotic (after explaining why I believed there was no connection). She went on a rant about WMD and other Fox/Cheney yakity yak. If I told her today that those theories had been debunked, she'd be glad to tell me that I'm wrong.
I know it’s not easy, but try to look past the camel fornicator part. Just look at his facts.
Thanks, Roland, words like that cause wars... And my adopted, ½ Iranian daughter was called a "camel jockey" and worse in high school. It was pure racist by white boys who were not used to being around a nappy-headed, olive complexioned female. When she finally got tired of it, she demonstrated that she wrestle them and pin them to the ground and sit on them. I had to pull her off a couple of times after school at pick-up. Behind the scenes I let her know that I wished I had her spunk and muscle when I was her age. But it is her brilliant brain I wanted her to hone to outdo them. She did hone that, but I think the young bucks stopped teasing her due to her fierce show of strength over them muscle-wise in front of the other young bucks. She did not hurt them, but she embarrassed them, which come to think of it, was using her brain!
Name-calling should be judicially done and factual. We have had a poor role model in our so-called "leader" for the past four years. I myself have gotten suspended on Youtube and and slammed for using the words seditionist, white supremacist, Nazi (...and maybe wanker) in the recent past, but I have facts to back me up. ;-)
Penelope, your daughter sounds aaaMAZing! And I hope she continues to be fierce, as well was developing her intellectual talents: may she succeed with bells on in whatever she does. I agree that racist language should really be out of bounds especially on this platform. But I draw the line at wanker--which is not racist; it is just an accurate description of the behavior of some members of the human race with, um, dangling members. It is a word my students find amusing when I use it to refer to historical figures, but if the shoe fits . . .!
That said, I agree with Roland and TC (for all his usual attempts to out-Jim Wright that plain-speaking Texan). The US alliance with Saudi Arabia has been toxic for the US and many of its other allies and enormously beneficial for Saudi Arabia, which has been able to sustain its stranglehold on politics in the Middle East while continuing to be protected and ignored concerning its enslavement of South Asians and Pacific Islanders (as domestic workers), its virtual enslavement of all women, its abysmal human rights record especially with respect to Muslims who are not adherents of Wahabbism, and its very clear connections to Osama bin Ladin and Al-Qaeda. All but 2 of the 9-11 assassins were Saudis and they had been well protected by the Saudi government. But the Bushes and the Cheneys were in the pockets of the Saudis--and had been for decades--and so they prevented that essential fact from becoming the primary one, instead diverting attention and blame to the execrable--but absolutely blameless in terms of 9-11--Iraqi regime. It was the ultimate bait-and-switch and a playbook for the kinds of misinformation the just-past administration turned into a high art. And it is one reason why, while I appreciate Liz Cheney's condemnation of Drumpf with all my heart, I don't trust her about almost anything else.
Thank you Linda. The only thing I would add is that the Saudi elites, all those multi millionaires supposedly related to each other, are vicious and medieval in their ability to backstab each other and do incredibly dirty and violent things to each other. I only pray I never come back in a family like that, I would disown them. We are so blessed and so naïve in America. Except for maybe the mob, or a few other groups hiding under rocks, we don’t see the kind of vicious murderous behavior that people like MBS and his relatives engage in amongst themselves. In that way, they do resemble the royals of history.
Completely agree— it’s the only time I have felt good about a Cheney and I can’t wait for the Monday announcement from Biden about Saudi Arabia Linda.
Agree. Enough bamboozlement by big oil.
You seemed to jump from a factual historical report to, I believe, too strong an association of Liz Chaney's character with her father's.
I still stand by “The Repugnant Party.” It ain’t name-calling if it’s true.
And they sure are repugnant!! Cant deny that.
Ok, I’m back. I was working at the LA warehouse. Penelope I have to respond to you first, and this is also for Reid. Listen, if you guys think I’m being an apologist for TC, and that me or him need to be raked over the coals, by all means say so. I am not conflict averse. I happen to think TC is not racist, otherwise I would not be nearly so forgiving. As a truck driver believe me, I have had more than one white a—h—-e talk to me in confidence as a fellow white boy about ragheads or whatever racist terminology was coming out of their potty mouth. I don’t mind profanity where it’s justified, but I do not tolerate racist terminology for the sake of being racist. However, any of you reading this may have a different take, and by all means don’t put up with anything you don’t want to put up with. I doubt very much that TC uses the term camel-anything anywhere else in life except online where he is protected by his anonymity. If I were him, I would be perfectly clear that I am talking about the Saudi elite that deserve those insults, not the Saudi people as a whole. That’s the difference. OK, I’m done defending myself. If you think I’m full of it, don’t hold back. And of course Penelope I think your daughter is way cool.
Oh, Roland, you misunderstood my comment. I loved that you asked readers to "look past the fornicator part." I wish I was as succinct as you and TPC can be. My comment was more about TC's unnecessary use of the racist statement.
The story of my daughter was is an example of how people of color have to cope with racial ignorance in America. And though she is amazing and I admire her, there are invisible scars. I have always told her that some people are just jealous because she is a Golden Child and beautifully exotic. I know the scars from just being a white woman dealing with sexism, male lack of control, and deeply inhibited freedom to walk alone in certain places such as the woods or the sand dunes of a deserted beach. Yet, I am still of privileged color.
But, add darker pigment to the skin of a woman. No way of blending in and being unseen. So, they have to be stronger, smarter, more courageous, more able to ignore idiots. I am a privileged little peanut compared to my darker daughter and my black/brown/yellow female peers. But the atrocities committed on my paternal Cherokee side, only evident in my cheekbones, vies with the Daughter of the American Revolution on my maternal side.
Within me is the oppressed and the oppressor. It keeps me awake and vigilant. It prevents me from feeling the word "Patriotic" because of the genocide of my ancestors by my other ancestors.
And I like that the complexity of the world is inside of my body, and I believe, helps the light of my burning flame of justice stay balanced and empathic. I am no better than anyone else, because I am Everyone. (Whoa! Deep hunh?)
Anyway, I am not sure if that is what makes me able to stand up and fight for justice when anyone is treated unfairly or has a knee on their neck. And that is exactly why I feel like a pit bull surrounding these Seditionists who have acted against our country. I am not about to let go of them paying the consequences of their actions against our country.
For the first time, I feel a sense of patriotism, thanks to He Who Shall Not Be Named and his GOP cult. When I traveled across country here, after having traveled in most of the countries of Europe. I was awakened for the first time of how small the scale of Europe actually is compared to that of the USA. I visited Mount Rushmore for the first time and got a real perspective.
What we are trying to do here in this Great Experiment on this giant landmass Under One Government. I stood there and read the Declaration of Independence, in awe and tears, under all those flags of our nation. (30 of the 43-44 Euro countries can fit into the USA).
My heart broke open for this country, despite its colonial foundation of cruel genocide and slavery. There is something here unlike any other country on our planet. And that is HOPE. That we can do what others cannot or are even interested in. But the world knows what we are attempting to do and many of them want to live here, too.
We are indigenous people, and people from around the world—born here, dragged here, emigrated here or seeking asylum here from dictators and warlords. We encompass so many traditions, languages, religious beliefs (or not), skin colors and ancestral histories. Does everyone understand how remarkable this Thing is we are trying to LIVE (warts and all)? We are participating in the most beautiful (sometimes very painful) thing and we need to help our children understand that and participate in it with us. Because we ALMOST LOST IT. And the lives and deaths our our indigenous people, our slaves and our soldiers better well be damned worth it all to be here with our freedoms today.
Okay, okay, this feeling I am experiencing right now must be what a real Patriot feels like, I suppose, so I now own it— thanks to these fricking Seditionists who have revealed to me to my Self. I now own the mantel of an "Patriot": a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors (and I add seditionists/oppressors). But I will never be blinded by that mantel and how we got here, and the path ahead.
Roland, you are astute, kind and tolerant. Nothing to apologize for. TC steps over the line at times and someone always calls him out. We police ourselves quite well on this forum.
Your daughter sounds like a true young woman of TODAY! Good for her. Its a shame that many children lack her confidence! Two of my granddaughters do not!
Actually 2 granddaughters and one great-granddaughter - all three speak up for themselves and others - they make me proud.
White racists are at CPAC. This guy is job hunting.
Hi Penelope— the smartest friend I have had for about 43 years occasionally reminds me of the fact that we humans are animals continually evolving. I get it and it helps me to comprehend the outrageous behavior of some humans.
Though sometimes i feel that we are insulting other animals by the comparison.
At some point you might even have a laugh, Penelope, with your daughter as the Camel Jockey's in the Arab world actually can make a great deal of money. They are mostly young Pakistani boys who are treated like champion jockey's in Europe or America....as long as they stay firmly in the shadow of one royal haras or another and don't try to run away.
Interesting, Stuart! She is now of an age where I think she might laugh. I never really told her how clever one must be to ride a camel, at speed, and stay on and not injured...you know, down below!
Penelope, I have spoken up about TCinLa’s language before. Trust me, he does not care. Roland defends him. Oh, well, “boys will be boys,” right?
Well, again, I liked that Roland politely asked us to not focus on the racist statement and look at the content of what TC was saying. We all know that TCinLA lets loose sometimes. Rather than slapping him down, I told a family story about racism, that I hope was educational for him, or someone. It was safer than sicking my daughter on him!
Tasteless. Ignore him.
I guess I will defend TC as well altho I once also took him to task for hurling a rude insult to another poster. However his indecorous comments about 7th Century desert nomad barbarians – applying it to the very current actions of the Crown Prince’s barbarism didn’t bother me. As you said, maybe “boys will be boys.” However, that puts us into the archaic dichotomy of language too impolite to speak in the presence of ladies. I come from the counter-culture era when that was completely abandoned and “ladies” could be as foul-mouthed as the guys.
Personally, I find it cathartic to express my feelings honestly. I have been calling #45 an Asswipe for years (along with other Repugnants). I occasionally do a verbal impression of Samuel L. Jackson when really upset. Venting may be a way to let off steam. Notice the description by neighbors of most serial killers after they were caught – “He was always such a nice, quiet, polite man.”
Yes words cause wars. Camel jockey is only 1 of the very offensive terms being used on this thread. And the fact that TCLA doesn’t seem to be as popular as others who are posting hateful rhetoric is just as disturbing. Let’s attack TCLA but not others.
That is unacceptable. This kind of bigotry must be called out and shouted down wherever it occurs. Shame on us if we look past it.
Absolutely
Look through ALL the comments on this diary. Look at the names of posters. TCLA just happens to be the 1 person who has become the lightening rod.
What he said was wrong and racist. What other people do and say is irrelevant to that fact.
One garnish too many
Let's just say that expletives have a cultural context and this particular one is quite common-place in middle eastern parlance. In France, one of the less interesting additions to the French Culture that has been offered by descendants of Arab immigration is "Nique ta mère" used to fend off any criticism of some otherwise unacceptable street aggressivity. The best translation would be "Go F*uck your mother". It is somewhat interesting to speculate whether in the minds of the perpetrating users, they consider Oedipian relations to be worse than Zoophilia.
You are attempting to justify a bigoted characterization with false equivalencies and arguments about how other countries say bad things to each other? Bigotry is bigotry and should be unacceptable to us.
Hmmmm..we’ll they like to think they’re so sexually sophisticated that it’s ok to take advantage of underaged humans. I think they lump it all together equally. I have a French sister in law whose father abused her sisters children. He admitted to the whole family. As she explained to me — it’s common.
Very enlightening on la France contemporaine, but at the end I'd just say "Oh, gross!"
I love how you and Roland say so much with so few words!!
Moi Aussie Penelope!
You always defend him, Roland. Not a good look for you.
100%, Kay. Roland is commendably fair-minded, but I prefer insights without insults from TCinLA.
On my FIRST DAY here TC told me to "Go f--- yourself, you millennial f---wit." I almost canceled my subscription on the spot, but received reassurance from Substack that he's monitored as abusive.
It's not just the insupportable vulgarity, bigotry and insults. The frequent violent fantasies and suggestions to harm others are frankly unnerving. and just look at today's LFAA; a single crack about camels sends the discussion careening off track. This is bad trouble, not good trouble.
TPJ, I agree 100%. TC has much to contribute but his many descents into abusive language—and his cruelty toward others in this community—leave me less than inclined to admire his talents as a writer. He reminds me of a former boyfriend... brilliant but quickly former because of a drinking problem and a temper. TC is looking more and more like that inconsiderate bully. Thank you for calling out persistent bad behavior.
“On my FIRST DAY here TC told me to "Go f--- yourself, you millennial f---wit." I almost canceled my subscription on the spot,”
Wow, I forgot about that. The guy who professes to despise Trump is just as bad and usually much worse in his insulting behavior. I’m sorry TPJ, that totally sucks. I’m starting to think that I’ve been acting like a schmuck. The problem is we don’t have a search feature: I can’t go back and review just how many times, and just how viciously, TC has been derogatory. He’s like the homeless guy on the street corner who is ranting and making nasty insults nonstop. The problem is that I have a bad habit sometimes of being loving and kind to someone even when they don’t deserve it anymore. I’m not surprised that Kay Ingram mistakes that for the white boy protecting the other white boy, it can sure look that way.
TPJ, you’re a millennial?
T, what exactly does this mean? “. . . received reassurance from Substack that he's monitored as abusive.”
I have no knowledge of any moderation by Substack. Until this post of yours I had no evidence either.
I am changing my opinion, I am changing my decisions, and I am changing my behavior. About TC.
Roland, you are never a schmuck. You are intelligent, kind, and thoughtful. I wish you all the best. Cheers!
Yeah, you’ve got a point. I’m thinking about it, that’s what this thread today’s doing.
Yet, he is still here.
I thought camels are really tall just wondering how the Bedouins —
Oh Liz, you're going to get jabbed for that one!!!! I got a good laugh out of it - even before my coffee this am!
I’m watching Lawrence of Arabia today— one of my favorite movies ever! I love giving anyone a good laugh
God god.
Have to admit, tho, sort of an eye catcher wasnt it?
If by that you mean it was an effective way to get me to read what he had to say, the answer is no, because I stopped reading after the racial slur.
No, I meant exactly what I said - wasnt referring to you or anyone in particular.
Humph! -- "I find it amazing that no one in the press ever puts the words “Saudi national“ in front of the name “Osama bin Laden.”"
OBL was stripped of his Saudi citizenship in 1994, years before Sept 11 and his later demise. He was arguably still Saudi, but definitely not a Saudi national while the world was aware of him.
His family disowned him as well. I lived a few blocks from his family compound in Riyadh. Never met them but they were respected citizens.
Interesting. Well, you can take the man out of the country but that doesn’t mean you can take the country out of the man.
I loved seeing the PBS interview with Marty Baron of Washington post who is retiring in a few days. He is a journalistic super hero.
Yes, Liz. Here in MA we benefited from Marty's stewardship as Boston Globe editor. Ironically, his reputation owes much to Liev Schreiber's performance in Spotlight along with his own work.
It was a terrific performance. But please give Mr. Baron his due. He transformed both The Globe and The Post and did so with real courage and skill.
For sure—I loved that film
This is racist and should be deleted. There is no place for this kind of bigotry here. You entirely undermine the talking points you present when you use that language.
It is racist. But read through many, many more comments here and they are just as bad regarding how Saudis are being described and referenced. Commenters forget that there is an a tire nation of citizens under oppression in the KSA. It’s wrong to assume that all Saudis mirror the leaders we hear about through MSM.
"the only 'good' Saudi I've ever heard of was Kashoggi" -- TCinLA
"The only good Indians I ever saw were dead." -- Phil Sheridan
Substack, please delete TC's full comment.
You want substack to delete TC's full comment because of something a 19th Century Indian fighter said?
It's because his comment so closely echoes a 19C bigot. You and I had a tense exchange a couple of weeks ago, but I came away from it respecting you. Keep the comments coming.
Yes, I agree. Well said.
It’s helpful when discussing any nationality to distinguish between the government and the citizens.
I commented that I wouldn't travel to SA, because of the way that women are treated. If the leadership was different, that would change my opinion. It has nothing to do with race.
However, having lived and socialized amongst the Saudis (children, women and men) I learned so much about their culture, religious beliefs, and government. Why not learn up close and personal about other cultures and beliefs? Aside from that, the Arabian desert and other geographical regions (i.e. farming, sustainable living, dairy) is absolutely amazing.
I envy you the opportunity to do that. Were you allowed to go out unescorted, drive, etc.? Of course, living there full time and having the opportunity to forge relationships lends a very different cast to the experience. My perspective in going as a tourist, and knowing how oppressed their citizens are, and not knowing the intricacies of their customs, I'd worry about running afoul through my ignorance. The closest parallel I can think of is that on a trip to China, I chatted with a young woman who was our tour guide on a day trip. I recall telling her how much I was enjoying her commentary, and asked if she'd ever been to the US. Immediately, her entire demeanor changed, she looked nervously at a man who was on tour with us, although clearly a local and not a tourist, and she ended up not responding, and avoided me for the rest of the tour. My husband and I assumed that the man was a government watchdog, and was observing us and some other tourists because of information on our visas about occupations, etc. We had been warned by people familiar with tourism in China that our hotel room would be wired and we'd be observed while visiting. Rather unsettling.
Not sure what you're getting at with your response here. I can't delete TC's comment. I was only mentioning that there's a ton of pretty awful comments throughout this thread today regarding Saudi's. And again, I'm coming at this as a person who lived in the KSA. I'm talking about the citizens. NOT the brutal governmental leaders or religious police. There are a lot of generalizations here today.
Apologies for not being clear, Tricia; I amended the previous comment. The delete suggestion is for moderators at Substack. Subscribers can delete only their own comments. You are 100% right about stereotyped remarks on the Middle East.
Thank you TCînLA! Perhaps betrayal is why GWB had such a quizzical look on his face when he first heard the news on 9/11. I’ve never forgotten that image. ❤️🤍💙
I have nothing profound to contribute here. “Follow the money” has most often been a true factor in so much body politic. But, coincidentally, I came across a photo of my daughter from 9/15/2001 where she and her friends had set up a lemonade stand with a sign that said “all money goes to Red Cross.” Remember those days of care and concern for fellow citizens? My daughter turns 30 next month and I am pulling together an album/scrap book as her gift. It started out as a plan to choose a photo from each birthday to mark the years. Seeing that photo of the Red Cross effort from a 10-year old and her friends caused me pause. She is the same empathetic individual to this day, did social work for troubled Alaskan youth using wilderness environs to teach transferable skills to every day life. She was incredibly frustrated, and disappointed, at the beginning of the pandemic when the simple act of community care was to wear a mask but it became so political. Not sure how this fits with today’s comments, but thought it interesting that 9/11 was brought up, and I had just come across that photo.
It fits beautifully, Diane. Youngers like your daughter gonna save the world.
Thank you. Such an uphill battle. Simply to recognize humans for humans and help the environment.
"go back to being the desert nomad barbarians they were prior to 1921 when Abdul Azziz created Saudi Arabia" (with apologies to Omar Sharif)......with a little help from their friends, Laurence of Arabia and the Allied powers fighting the Ottoman Empire, bedfellow of Kaiser Wilhelm. I think things will get a little cooler in the Alliance and a "more acceptable" face will be put on the Saudi regime, which will only thinly mask the reality. It's another case of my enemy's enemy i'm afraid as well as the financial heft of what is left of their oil riches. Given that they are now unfreezing relations with Isreal, this report is not likely to be allowed to get in the way of dealing with Iran.
With oil/gas going up in price, I think the Saudi's are doing just fine currently and we don't currently have the green infrastructure in place to not need oil. Additionally, looking at Germany who invested quite a bit into their green/renewable infrastructure shows it is not robust enough to serve their needs which is why they are all in on the Russian pipeline which is about 90% completed. Imagine being dependent upon Russia for your energy needs. So I believe Saudi Arabia will still be relevant as a large player/option in the energy sector. Incidentally, if we are going to reindustrialize to decrease our dependence and exposure to China, our energy needs will only increase.
And Germany needs desperately to phase out their pollution disaster aging brown coal (lignite) burning stations which they had to resuscitate after "courageously" and quickly shutting down their nuclear capacity.
Take out some of the colorful descriptors you’ve used here and I agree with your brief historical analysis of the kingdom. Having lived in Saudi for 10 years and studied its culture, government, and propaganda up close and personal, I feel for its citizens. The Saudis I knew and socialized with were not jihadists or radicals — those would be the religious police, the government leaders, the ultra wealthy who removed their ghutras on a flight out of the kingdom and once out of Saudi airspace and downed Glenlivet like water. Those in power and much like we see in our own nation, right?
If you look close enough and long enough, you can see parallels. And God help us if Trump is re-elected in 2024 and Kushner reasserts himself and his friendship with BSM. There is a chance BSM will be king eventually.
Given the chance I’d return to live in KSA for the rest of my life if I could. I’d love to immerse myself in international human rights again. Especially children and women.
On a side note, ‘The Kingdom: Arabia and the House of Sa’ud’ is worth reading.
Bullseye, Tricia. Lacey's The Kingdom was my early intro to Saudi Arabia. Iranians and Saudis in their millions yearn to be unmolested by their governments and fully participate in the modern world.
I got to thinking a bit and MBS was 14-years-old when I lived in KSA. At the time something like 55% of the male population was under the age of 18 and I remember being briefed by the Saudi consulate about the significance of that fact and what could happen to the country over the next 20 years or so. Those words ring pretty true today. I won't drop names in a public forum like this but we socialized with people who knew things and did things. It was a foreign world to me, literally and figuratively, but I learned a lot about international politics. And cultures and peoples of course. I'm not Saudi defender but those years in the KSA taught me a lot. As did my life abroad in general. I've never been happy living in the USA since returning. We are such a shallow people. Myself included.
If only all "shallow" people had your depth.
Perhaps you need to find more diverse people to hang out with who are not like you. Do you know people who make less than $40,000 per year? That would be 50% of the U.S. adult population.
Not following your comment. A bit confused. Would you kindly be a bit more specific so I can understand your message? Thank you so very much.
I think they’re evil and I have no plans to travel there.
The racist and rude rhetoric that TC uses should not tarnish your view of the kingdom. See my comment up thread but having lived and worked in Saudi for 10 years, I’d go back in a minute. Beautiful country. Beautiful and suppressed people. The government, religious police, propaganda, and jihads are barbaric — and some of their practices mirror what the Trump administration was trying to do .. and successfully in some ways.
I've felt for years that many Americans don't venture beyond our shores, because there truly is so much to see and do here. However, travel helps to broaden one's horizons. It's too easy to stereotype people, based on someone else's interpretation. We would all benefit from leaving our comfort zone. Perhaps this is the reason that Europeans and Asians are more open-minded and sophisticated in many ways, and also explains the "ugly American," who is so comfortable with feeling entitled and superior.
My thoughts exactly. Thank you.
So true, with the same feeling here. We can travel so far, see so much, yet never leave America. It lowers the horizon over the rest of the world. We are not the whole world.
PS, any fans of Rick Steves' Europe here? It's a fun, fine stand-in until we can travel again.
As an Africanist who lived in Zambia for a couple of years, I'm all too familiar with equally uninformed views of the continent's people.
TP, I have an Indian acquaintance who was born in Zambia and now lives here. Do you have any information about the origins of Indians' arrival in Zambia?
VERY briefly, there is a millennium-long South Asian presence in the East African coast, Red and Arabian Seas. Also a corresponding but smaller African presence across the Indian Ocean.
Large-scale migration began in the 19C, bringing indentured labor for sugar in Natal, and the railroad in Kenya. From there "Indians" (millions are Africans now for several generations) spread inland, and into commerce, business and other middling occupations. Success as a market-dominant minority has drawn a reputation for sharp dealing, and discriminatory laws and treatment in several African countries, some expelling them altogether.
The feature film "Mississippi Masala" is a marvelous look at "Indian" immigrants, from Ugandan exile to settling in America. Watch and discuss with your acquaintance. If you want good friends, have African friends. Cheers!
K Chaudhuri, Trade & Civilisation in the Indian Ocean
F&L Dotson, Indian Minority of Zambia, Rhodesia, Malawi
B Lal, Encyclopedia of the Indian Diaspora
H Tinker, A New System of Slavery
Amen
Jenner & Block. Step one, body slam. 7 No Trump. Step two. Closes the casino. Billions to trillions. MBS may be rolled.
That term —camel fornicator kills me.
Why do, Liz?
Meant to say, Why so, Liz? Really interested in understanding why 'camel fornicator' kills you.
I add my welcome. This is a highly talented and civil group.
Non-expert here. Big grain of salt needed. I think unreservedly that this is very canny behavior by Biden and Co.
It’s measured and nuanced. Biden no doubt realized that his days of talking only with the King are numbered. He is 85 and losing his grip mentally. There was debate as to how much of the conversation he even understood.
The Saudis know Biden knows that. So I would say it’s even more of a slap in the face to MBS that Biden choose to talk with a leader with dementia over the presumptive heir. No doubt that would sting MBS, given what we know about him.
To an extent Biden can only do so much in re-litigating the past - with Khashoggi, with the Russians, and with the war on Yemen. The Times, I believe it was, had an article in which an expert said that Yemen could be facing the worst humanitarian crisis ever seen. That sounds hyperbolic to me - it would have to go some to surpass the Holodomor - but nonetheless this is a *current* situation - one which the US may wish to ameliorate. Stepping on the toes of MBS (with whom he will surely be dealing in the not too distant future) as he did is a stark warning. The big guns (so to speak) can be held in abeyance.
I feel exactly as sanguine about his first shot across the bow with Russia. He spoke softly, but indicated the big stick.
I think America is back - in a measured but resolute way. Time will tell if he follows through with consistency, but this is a good start.
Now, if we could only deal firmly and swiftly with our own most refractory citizens.
Welcome! At this time of night, it’s usually the people living in Europe, the night owls in America, and people in the US who are working a night shift like me. I’m in California working a night shift as a truck driver. I’ll get back to you with a comment on your question about Biden and MBS, but chances are there will be lots of other people replying to you.
I’m on the east coast still on my teacher’s schedule— in bed before nine— up around 4.
Me, too, Liz, though usually up at around 2:00.
Great time to get things done when others are sleeping!
Congrats, early birds. No worms for me, please; this night owl is up late.
Good morning, Roland. I’m an early riser in SoCal, up at 4:30 am so I can read HRC and fellow readers’ illuminating posts before caring for my husband and trying to get some writing work done. Thanks to you and so many others, I learn so much I’d spend hours searching for elsewhere. Today was especially helpful re Saudi Arabia.
Morning Roland! I am glad to say that after a brutal week I managed to get a decent night's sleep! I hope you have had a safe night shift and that you have a restful weekend!
Thank you Linda! Sorry you had a brutal week.
Hi, Roland!
Hi Marlene! Don’t you ever go to sleep?
We'll sleep when we're dead.
Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening
BY ROBERT FROST
Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.
My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.
He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound’s the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.
The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
It took me a while to realize this poem was about death and how we make choices that count before the end but it’s such a masterpiece.
Morning Lynell!! Glad you like New England poets.
ACK! I just tried it to the rhythms of "Hernando's Hideaway" and IT WORKS!! You've forever ruined the poem for me...or maybe "Hernando's Hideaway" will never be the same!! ;-)
I love that poem, even though my wife and I once abused it by having a group chant it to the tune of Fernando's Hideaway while we danced what was meant to be a comic tango.
This is my happy place: HRC plus hero Frost
❤️
Laugh emoji.
Wasn't there a song...
Yes. I know Frost’s poetry from high school a capella choir singing. There was a music arranger who turned several of the poems into choral music. Hauntingly beautiful before I understood the deeper meanings. The Road Not Taken was another we sang. I understood that 😊
😂😂
Welcome aboard, Bonnie. Don't let this be your last comment.
Hopefully today's steps are just the first from Biden (at least with SA more than Syrian bombings). Apart from progressive sanctions, the admin is adopting a careful, painstaking approach toward security threats and major crimes, whether committed in the Middle East, at American military bases, or the US Capitol grounds. I say take the necessary time to build rock-solid prosecutions, then lower the boom. Boom!
Welcome to this marvelous group!
It is very frustrating that MBS seemed to get a slap on the wrist. I imagine, however, there may be something happening in the backroom that we don’t know about. Biden will only converse with the King and apparently he told him that their country’s violations of human rights will not be tolerated and the possibility of sanctions are there. I don’t get why those sanctions weren’t enforced immediately when Biden took ownership.
I think Biden is giving the King a chance to discipline his son or something himself, rather than going straight to sanctions or other heavy-duty reactions. There's more than one way to get results.
Nice Laura! MBS is only 35. Spoiled rotten I’m sure, like any lifetime multimillionaire. Gets away with murder and all kinds of other nasty misdeeds. The Saudi elites, with some individual exceptions, as a group are rotten to the core. They understand the Bushes’ and Trumps’ greedy selfish ways. What they don’t understand is principled Americans. They are scared of America, because they see what happened to Saddam. They know we could regime-change them in a heartbeat if we wanted to. Don’t believe the royalty crap. It’s a self-imposed label. They are as Royal as my Royal vacuum cleaner from the 80s.
Ibn Saud was a warlord who crushed his opponents, ruthlessly exploited resources at hand, and placed a crown on his own head. (Come to think of it, that's true for most founders of dynasties.) The House of Saud, with its connections to Wahhabism, marks a century-long rupture in more longstanding patterns of religious and political authority in the Arabian peninsula. It succeeds with oil money, military force, co-opting an elite, and the cachet that comes with guarding Islam's Holy Places. That is no formula for longterm stability. The brutal war in Yemen may be contained through international efforts, or it may commence a great unraveling in Arabia -- something the world cannot afford. Nothing is guaranteed.
PS, Yemen, with its shattered health system, damaged civil society, and poor monitoring and data-keeping, is potentially a monumental global health risk. It's the kind of state where diseases, including Covid-19, become endemic, survive and burst out in future pandemic or epidemic outbreaks.
And a source of future and actual mercenary terrorists.....driven by despair , anger and poverty.
The Kingdom: Arabia and the House of Sa'ud
They are so scared that they come and go as they please, spend a lot of time in the US, use the Mayo clinic etc as if they own it (which they could do), invest in real estate in New York and elsewhere......just as they do in Paris and London. Money talks!
I love the vacuum cleaner metaphore......and they are just as efficient in their running of their country....leaving dirt everywhere. What they do efficiently however is hoover up the money we pay them for the oil making sure that nothing remains on the ground and all stays firmly stuck to their magic flying carpet all the way back to Western Banks etc.
I remember my first contracts in Nigeria...the locals said that in 1974 it cost $100 million to get rid of a dictater and by the time I last went in 1992 it cost $1 Billion and none of the oil money to this day ever touches the African shore. Quid erat demonstrandum! (QED)
I knew a couple who lived in Saudi Arabia for years on a consultancy basis. The wife told me that at a dinner party she asked a question pertaining to the status of women and the man explained simply that it’s because women don’t have souls ...bone chilling.
Friends of mine lived in Abu Dhabi on contrat to develop and run the port. They complained ..tongue in cheek..that they had to get a permit to buy alcohol; the permit allowed them to order a truck load. Hypocracy rampant!
Not all Muslim sects are quite so blatant but this was and continues to be a debate in theological circles. Of course, it was also a debate in early Christianity, too . . .
Can you imagine what evil can be justified by the belief that someone, including all women, does not have a soul? With all due respect to Mecca, I don’t think Saudi Arabia society is a Mecca for anything else. I don’t think anybody in their right mind would think of it as a tourist destination.
I'm not worried about the "royalty" of the king, or how spoiled his son indubitably is. His son is still his subject, and he has been extraordinarily ruthless in the past even with family members who created trouble for either the king or the kingdom. MBS has done both, and who knows what will happen. I think Biden has made it clear that something will if MBS isn't dealt with.
Yes exactly. MBS is an evil little shit. And I agree, I think you’re right that Biden is putting his foot down. Nice call.
He has myriads of Brothers and Sisters who are extremely wary of him. A coup against him by the opportunistic and threatenedfamily members is more likely than a decision by the father. MBS has spent much of his energy trying to make sure this doesn't happen....putting the family in jail as fast as he can expose their own corruption....without touching his own of course. This is entirely normal in a dictatership.....and the reason why male Pharoah of ancient Egypt married their sisters and vice-versa....old as the hills. Killing each other is the only way they can advance in this system.
Explains close bro relationship with Jared, doesn’t it?
Agreed.
Loved- "They are as royal as my Royal vacuum cleaner from the 80s" !!!
Love this vacuum cleaner simile Kathy.
I have a certain respect for the Bush family and would never lump them together with DT and his progeny.
Another father that might have done a better job of bringing up his sons!
Is the vacuum still working? :-)
Today's power politicking may be even more sharp-elbowed than we realize. MBS is King Salman's third heir in six years since he ascended the throne. While he appears strong now, he's faced serious opposition in the past, not least within the royal family. Wishful thinking for the demise of a monster? Sure. But given America's long record of foreign intervention, and Biden's vast experience in arm-twisting, MBS's coronation is hardly guaranteed. We shall see. Be surprised at nothing.
In this case, I think Biden's reputation for being a benign grandfather is serving him well. He smiles, reasons, cajoles, but beneath all of that, I'm beginning to see that he knows all the angles and has the steely resolve to manipulate all of them when necessary. He was undervalued for decades.
Nancy I consistently love absolutely everything you write
Roland, that is so nice of you! I love all of your commentary, too - especially when you stop to clean up some of TC's colorful language, which I love, too. I should have added to my earlier post that I also undervalued Biden - my bad.
Yes, nothing would surprise me and what chance would there be that whatever sibling/relative who might dethrone MBS would be any better? Seems the system itself, a "royal" dictatorship propped up by religious tribalism, is the problem.
👌
MBS is an outrageous criminal against humanity, and even Mr Khashoggi's cruel demise pales compared to the horrific war in Yemen. Let's take our chances with almost any other Saudi prince. As my dad said decades ago, If people do something wrong they should be punished. "Let justice be done though the heavens may fall!"
But why is it the American government's job to punish this criminal? Let them take care of their own. Biden has performed an excellent chess move here. Stop arms sales. Make USA position on Yemen known. Refuse to talk to any Saudi official aside from the King.
Certainly not the first time that regime-change would have been "engineered". Iran, Chile and the list goes on.
I would love MBS to face his karma in terms of both Kashoggi and Yemen but this is a huge decision for the king and he is tough but MBS will not go down easily.
I read this on Wikipedia: "The current ruler of Saudi Arabia is King Salman, who succeeded King Abdullah on his death on 23 January 2015. On the same day, Prince Muqrin became Crown Prince only to be replaced three months later by Muhammad bin Nayef at the order of Salman.
On the morning of 21 June 2017, Muhammad bin Nayef was deposed as Crown Prince and Salman's son Mohammad bin Salman was appointed to the position. The current crown prince is a grandson of Ibn Saud, the second of his generation to be officially placed first in the line of succession. The Allegiance Council was created in 2006 to facilitate the royal transfer of power."
Don’t know how many sons he has or how they keep track of sons with their harems but I’m betting MBS isn’t the one he loves best just thought he was the one who’d take charge.
Yes, MBS does have serious opposition within the royal family. Remember, he had members detained. The lust for power commonly runs stronger than the ties of blood. The man is evil, probably why Trump got along with him so well.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/06/world/middleeast/saudi-royal-arrest.html
And before that, he had members of his own family arrested.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-arrests-crownprince-insight/a-house-divided-how-saudi-crown-prince-purged-royal-family-rivals-idUSKBN1DA23M
I would even go farther and say Biden might be giving the King a chance to name a new Crown Prince. Although if I remember correctly MBS has consolidated his power and a considerable portion of the wealth to himself.
Exactly. Biden is showing respect (whether you agree that is the way to approach this or not) to the Saudis culture and practices. I respect and fully understand what Biden is doing here and I think much of the world leaders feel the same.
Agreed. And he’s still the King.
Yes, I think this is what diplomacy looks like. But it has been such a long time...
I’m not sure where I heard this but I believe the State Department has evidence of the planes MBS used in flying in the assassins to Turkey. I think it’s all going to come out soon— the mountain of evidence that DT was concealing so he and Jared could cozy up to MBS and the Arab oil money.
No love lost between MBS the turkish pasha. Nothing `will stop the details coming out.
Yes they will come out thank god after all the suppression of our former wannabe dictator u know who.
They’re cooking something up that they’re not telling us about yet. I agree Marlene. I also have a sneaking suspicion that there are all kinds of communications taking place that are not part of that official Biden talk with the king.
Yes to this. And to the basic idea that citizens rarely know what is going on in real time. It will be more clear in about 25 years. Thank goodness for the “kitten in string “ skills of HCR! We at least have clues.
Yes, I agree. While it would have been extremely edifying to see this autocratic murderer get his comeuppance publicly and immediately, SA is still a very powerful ally in an unstable region. Biden can afford to make it clear that MBS needs to be curbed by the king (I assume one of the conditions is that he will no longer be the designated crown prince) and then wait to see what happens. He still has direct sanctions in his pocket if he needs them.
Just wondering if MBS and Jared are still communicating, back channel, acting as if dad-in-law is still in charge?
more probably Jared is finding out just how shallow the "friendship" actually was.
Shallower, shallowest honestly it’s all just about the money power and narcissistic achievements with them
Hard to imagine that they don’t. Two birds of a feather. Will we ever know their WhatsApp confidences. Perhaps the US’s “prince” (yuck!) is more complicit than anyone wants to believe. After all, the shroud covering all the evil sometimes slips away with time. https://www.inquirer.com/columnists/attytood/trump-jamal-khashoggi-murder-cover-up-saudi-arabia-mbs-20191001.html
New here commenting, hello all. I’d read intel chief and intervention squad WERE sanctioned by Joe now. Why is no sanctions claimed? Because the king himself was not sanctioned? Please clear this up for a confused seeker. Thanks.
It’s just real diplomacy has kicked in with Biden again and language becomes more subtle.
Because MBS was not sanctioned and the country itself was not, just others who were involved in the plot.
Thanks!
Welcome, Cary!
Hey, Cary!
Welcome. Make yourself at home, Cary.
Hello, and welcome to Heather’s Cafe! I am not as knowledgeable about this issue, but you will find a big batch of very intelligent and well-read folks here that will surely answer all your questions and provide links and sources to everything you may want to know.
I like that, Heather's Cafe!
I'll have a West From Appomattox green tea, please.
Good choice!
I read the Nytimes every day and think that what you are referring to has to do with timing. Biden now has made a reversal in terms of foreign diplomacy. So under DT the State Department was part of the so called deep state and he did everything he could to dismantle it. Biden has returned to the traditional protocols. So the NYTIMES correct reported when there were no sanctions and now Biden has clearly signaled this is changing.
I think the Times headline and "angle" is just sophomoric. The President's response is more nuanced than that.
The information from the investigation has just been released and is new to most people. Perhaps Biden is giving the King a chance to do the right thing with the prince. It is a crime that happened there and during the former president.
Hi Bonnielou. Welcome to the participation of thoughts side of HCR’s letters. I’m also a fan of the way HCR blends current events with historical content, and she never fails to bring my heart rate down after watching the, hair on fire, news.
I’ll let more intellectual opinion writers answer your question about NYT criticism on Biden’s decision, but my first thought was, whaaaat? That’s it? Not even one tiny sanction?
Welcome! I’ve commented a few times throughout this thread today and especially in Saudi being that I lived and worked in the kingdom for 10 years. So my perspective on news about the KSA comes from personal insight. I’d suggest reading (or listening to since it’s on audio now) ‘The Kingdom: Arabia and the House of Sa’ud’.
Is Robert Lacey's Inside the Kingdom a thoroughly new book, or a revised and updated Kingdom?
From what I perused, it was written in 2009 and based on his time there for about 3 years. Just ordered a copy. Interested in his perceptions and how things have changed since I left. The Kingdom was written in 1982.
ThanxxxxxxTPJ
Welcome, Bonnielou!