It amazes me how some folks drum up their own morality while toting their ill-gotten gains to the bank. Looking at you, Rick Scott, TFG, the flying monkeys of the House of Representatives, et al. As an acquaintance once said, "When someone tells me they are a Christian businessman, I hold onto my wallet and run." From Rupert Murdoch to P…
It amazes me how some folks drum up their own morality while toting their ill-gotten gains to the bank. Looking at you, Rick Scott, TFG, the flying monkeys of the House of Representatives, et al. As an acquaintance once said, "When someone tells me they are a Christian businessman, I hold onto my wallet and run." From Rupert Murdoch to Putin to the Christian Nationalists, when will they see that, despite calling us socialists and worse, they delude themselves most of all.
That is an extreme position that aborts communication. On this planet there are businesses that embrace the Christian model that has not wandered too far from the “love thy neighbor...” thing. But news outlets don’t cover this.
Nor do I see cable news pundits discussing how trends in the Republican Party parallel the rise of Nazism.
I assure you it only seems extreme to those who worry their contact could evoke that response in others. To the rest of us, such feelings reflect generations of experience and millenia of history.
I do not patronize any business because of their religious views, but I do avoid many because of their sanctimonious proselytizing. It's disgusting.
Nor do I see any religious organizations denouncing the extreme right, instead just enjoying the ride on their coattails.
As Sam Smith points out so eloquently, it is the concentric circles of decreasing reason of "good" religious people by degree that ultimately makes the completely psycho religious people possible.
I see religious people rejecting hate and greed and counseling social awareness and compassion, as MLK did, but am disappointed that as a whole, there is so little visible "religious" protest (that I am aware of) of the cruel and narcissistic values of so many who claim to speak for their religion. I am not religious in any conventional sense, but I very much respect the values of some who are. Actions speak louder than words.
Your comment reminds me of the not-so-distant past, May of 2022, the Southern Baptist Convention published a list of hundreds of men in power positions who have been accused of sexual abuse. What happened to this list of hundreds? I'd like to know - the rats.
Thinking today of Jimmy Carter, a religious man who has lived his principles. In addition, he put solar panels on the White House (which Ronald Reagan, who used tricks to get himself elected) took off.
Many religious leaders in Portland were behind Measure 114, the gun law that voters passed here in Oregon and is currently being held up by a judge in eastern Oregon. The Oregon Supreme Court has declined to interfere until that plays out in that court.
They are also discriminatory and help finance a lot of intolerance. We have several places here in Salem where we will not darken the door that are local, but have made their pseudo-Christianity well known. One couple owns a couple restaurants and bragged about conning someone who asked if they had been vaccinated and they said yes because sometime as children they were for the usual things. They thought they were too clever by half. Liars and hypocrites.
Pamela, I refuse to step foot into a Hobby Lobby, too. The one near me went out of business, and I was thrilled. Did you know that they purchased plundered antiquities (from Iraq?), knowing their origins, and imported them to this country by describing them as "tiles"? I'm fuzzy about the details, but think they had to surrender them and pay restitution. In my opinion, they should have been forbidden to conduct business as a penalty. Oh, and then there's their refusal to pay for employee insurance that would have covered birth control.
I agree that religious institutions rarely remind the public of the core of Christianity which is to love in the ways suggested in biblical texts.
I also think that theocracies generally are oppressive.
I personally have the good fortune to be part of a local church that very much embraces the core values I mentioned above.
Me, I love the art of argument but I have found that persuasion is better. To further that shift I have to be better at first finding common ground, find a way to validate the other person, walk alongside rather than go nose to nose trading glares.
Thank you, though your comment about peace reminded me of a particularly egregious saying - "Know Jesus, Know Peace, No Jesus, No Peace" which appears to be more of an action plan. I have yet to meet any religious person who demonstrated any moral advantage over any good person of no religious indoctrination. Consider that religious beliefs are essentially determined completely by where we are born and little else. Every Christian I know (I grew up evangelical) would adamantly deny they could be Hindu or Muslim if simply born in a different part of the world, but will confidently say Hindu and Muslim peoples are "lost." Lol.
The (over)focus on white evangelical Christians does tend to obscure the truth that what makes the right-wing (white-wing?) movement so awful is not unique to evangelicals, or Christians, or religious people in general. Authoritarian movements appear not only in religions but in secular ideologies (Nazism and Stalinism for starters), and often when they arise they have widespread popular appeal.
Religious authoritarians have a head start because they can claim that their ideologies are underwritten by God. Secular authoritarians may adopt a religious veneer ("Kinder, Küche, Kirche") but they often turn into personality cults where a man (almost invariably it is a man) stands in for the deity.
I'm fascinated (as well as somewhat terrified) by the apotheosis of Donald Trump. On so many counts he's the antithesis of what the white-wing evangelicals claim to value and believe. I'm daring to believe that he's the fault line, the (I hope) fatal flaw in this home-grown fascist movement -- the fracturing of the GOP as we head toward 2024 suggests as much. But a whirlwind has been unleashed, and it's a long way from behing tamed.
John, you now can edit on Substack! Click on the three dots (…) at the end of the line below your comment and voilà: those pesky typos can be fixed anon 😁
Here is a link to a talk in Minneapolis in January 2023 by Dr. Michael Emerson on his research that looks at the beliefs of Practicing White Christians (PWC). They are people who say they are Christian, who say their faith is extremely important to them, and they attend worship at least once per month. Emerson is a sociologist at Univ. of North Carolina. His book on this research is "The Grand Betrayal: The Agonizing Story of Religion, Race, and Rejection in American Life." His lecture starts at about minute 37. This was sponsored by the Minnesota Council of Churches, and the news of his survey findings is spreading. In essence, PWCs interpret biblical passages in ways that are incongruous with the meaning of biblical faith which teaches, among other things, that we should care for the foreigner, confess our own sin, etc. There is much more here: https://youtu.be/KtnmxSYH_vM
Shall look. Your American “Christianity” makes me keep a bucket near by. Emerson probably travels with a bucket handy. And the term practising white Christian’s is as much an oxymoron as … you think it up.
The problematic word in PWC is "white" because it is the group of white people in the survey (among all Christians) who registered the most positive emotions about White Privilege and the most negative emotions around Social Justice, Reparations, Undocumented Immigrants. These views are found across the board among Roman Catholics, mainline Protestants, and evangelicals who are white. So what's disturbing, Anne, is that PWCs are not only the evangelical conservative MAGAs we might think. And the bucket-worthy survey results are not explained by political party affiliation, age, residence, gender, etc. It's just about being white.
Mary, when you are presented with a "Christian religious man" who tells everyone around him that gayfolk are an abomination of God, please tell me why John's quote of Nietzsche "is an extreme position that aborts communication". Please tell me how that is different from people who tell me they "hate the sin but love the sinner". How does one "communicate" with someone who believes they are an abomination and a sinner because of what some "god" said?
I agree that that is a problem and that quote has been used to justify oppression, hatred and violence. But I believe that that problem does not nullify all of Christian scripture. If I ever converse with someone who clutches that problem to his or her breast I would still try to talk about it to
My first reaction to this quote was to chuckle and agree. Because the damage done by "religions" is arguably much greater than the good they are supposed to represent. Many of today's Bible Thumpers are terrifyingly dangerous.
But then I remind myself that as soon as we make sweeping generalizations about any group of people (except Trumpers and Nazis, etc.) we have demonstrated ignorance.
I don't have a religious bone in my body. I would tax every "church". I think that most megachurch preachers are as trustworthy as George Santos. I think it would be appropriate for the Roman Catholic church to declare itself an enemy of mankind and sell its assets to feed the poor. The Russian Orthodox version should be sent to the gulags for supporting Putin the monster. I could go on....
However, I know many people who consider themselves religious who are exemplary human beings. The fact that they have another take on faith just means they have another opinion. I still honor them for the complete humans they are - despite believing that their "faiths" are silly superstitions. I work with what people do. How do they treat others? That is all that matters to me.
That being said, the religious people who are well intentioned - accepting of all people regardless of faith or lack thereof, regardless of gender identity, color, cultural background or political views - those people, that you and I might get along with, have been way too silent. An exception, whose following I hope is growing, is John Pavlovitz. https://johnpavlovitz.com/
You will find some mighty fine people in this comments forum who are on the correct side of democracy, diversity, social justice and all around fairness. And many of them have some sort of religious faith. One is a "chaplain". I stand with them because we share core values about how we should treat people.
Love John. But, about half way into the trump years I had to stop reading his work. I had really started to despise trump voters. So now I read him periodically. He's a really good man!
My Jewish wife and I toured parts of Italy. Every city or large town had a duomo. Painted on the interiors were scenes of torture. People being speared, roasted and dismembered. Except for the duomo in Assisi. My wife said: "I like this guy Francis. "Franny" can be my saint". She is an animal lover, so that helped, as well.
He could be a secular saint. He sort of bucked the Catholic Church and came close to heresy. He would be forgotten today if killed by the Inquisition for heresy, but prevailed and became the gentle Saint, embraced by animal lovers and non-religious seekers.
My partner and I took off on our pilgrimage on October 4, 1975 and learned later that was the Feast of St. Francis. Synchronicity?
"...the religious people who are well intentioned ... have been way too silent."
I disagree, emphatically. They are not so much silent as unheard: ignored as not relevant and thus not quoted. That's on us, buried in our own silo that divides people into handy representational categories. Not all religious people carry a flag that says so. Maybe we need to open ourselves up to be receptive.
It's true that they don't make the headlines because they aren't outrageous. You are right. It's on us to listen. I'll work harder on that.
But to break through in this world, we need to do something attention grabbing. Maybe a big electric F-150 pickup with a flag of Jesus (black version, of course) with the words "Proud Democrat"?
We just have to get out of our own silos and pay attention to what is really going on instead of just assuming we already know. Not sure flying a flag is going to help out a lot with that. It's still letting the extremists set the standard. Let's face the other way and pay closer attention to who else is working with us that we are too blind to see. Or hear.
I've toyed with the idea of flying the National Colors and the Pride flag from my half-ton pickup (sadly, not electric). But I'm not sure how safe I'd be.
Although I belong to a different Faith, "Faithful America" is a wonderful group of Christians who are fighting peacefully and having an affect, against Christian Nationalist. They are against the extremist who have twisted the teachings of Christ. Please check them out, they need support. I'm sadly not tech savvy to put a link.
David, I was about to say that, too. You and Hope beat me to it. I've always known that I was in good company here in Heather's Herd, and that belief has been reinforced.
The good news, to me, is that these insane bigots on the extreme right are finally spelling out their plans in public. I hope that we won't be disappointed at the reaction of every sane person in this country.
Nancy, My guess is that we won’t be disappointed, presuming we respond proactively. To clarify, in my view, the outcome of future elections could land primarily on how effectively Biden and Democratic leadership manage the upheaval much of the GOP feasts on. Democrats need to lead in this moment when GOP far-right extremists are fueling hate and division. They have to go where the trouble is in this country, the trouble the GOP extremists are stoking, the trouble said extremists are making worse. Democrats must go there and meet with the people who doubt that Democrats care about the wreckage of their dreams and show they can work on legitimate issues and grievances.
I agree, Barbara Jo. I don't understand why so many people don't already know the valuable things that Biden has accomplished, and my guess is that it is due to the fact that Biden is not a charismatic speaker. His life-long speech impediment has hampered his ability to get past many peoples' affinity for style above substance.
Nancy, While I mostly agree with your thoughts about Biden, please note that when I wrote, “They [Dems] have to go where the trouble is…” I was speaking about our local, state, and federal representatives. Moreover, I wasn’t expecting these officials merely to enumerate the accomplishments of the past two years, which, compliments of Manchin and Sinema, were dramatically edited down. Instead, I expect Democrats authentically to empathize with legitimate grievances and inequities and to demonstrate their commitment to implementing meaningful change.
Yes, Barbara Jo, local politics is essential to any real progress. I agree, too, that the Democrats need to listen and help everyone who's aggrieved and hurting.
Jeri, While I don’t disagree with your assessment of much of MSM and have served as a lay media critic for some time, I also believe in pressing our Democratic representatives to do a better job of messaging both their agenda and the harms and injustices each time it is blocked.
“Half of republicans” (supporting “Christian” nationalism) is indeed a lot of people, but what proportion of the total voting population is that now - 20%,25%?
This line bothered me too. Per 2022 Gallup polls of party affiliation, ~28% identify as Republicans; 30% as Dem, 40% Independent. MSM routinely disingenuously frames Dem/Repub split like it is 50-50. The article that HCR referenced says "According to the PRRI/Brookings study, only 10% of Americans view themselves as adherents of Christian nationalism and about 19% of Americans said they sympathize with these views."
Those numbers are still very concerning and require that we all draw attention to this dangerous threat in our society with friends and via any platform we have because 81% of Americans are NOT among the crazies.
Yes, it’s still a lot of people And important to try to counteract. Thanks for calling attention to the reference, I hadn’t checked. Who knew Marjorie Taylor Greene was a Christian, though? Not real noticeable, imho.
We have a particularly sleazy developer right here in River City (Salem, OR) that touts his Christianity. My neighbor, when she finds out someone is a fundamentalist, says watch your back. Yes, run, don't walk. I also reminded of another person, neighbor of my in-laws who made much of his Christianity. And he called us at night to ask my husband, who worked at Employment, to somehow make things work for him. My husband refused. Then later one, he commented to me at a party at my in-laws that the neighborhood had changed, meaning that it was no longer lily white. I just smiled and said yes, it is more diverse. This turkey and all the others have no idea of who Jesus was or what he said in the first three Gospels.
Oregon is a weird critter when it comes to its attitude regarding anyone not white. We removed racist language from our constitution in 2002 and repealed the section of our constitution that permitted slavery or involuntary servitude as punishment for a crime just this last year. There were "sundown towns" in Oregon as late as the 1960's. Our racist roots run deep and no "whitewashing" will change that.
With that in mind, larger metropolitan areas are better than smaller towns, but there is still awful discrimination and harassment that goes on for BIPOC. I have become friendly with women who run two restaurants in town (one Vietnamese and one Chinese) and both have had their businesses targeted for vandalism in the past several years. A big problem in Eugene in particular is that the global "we" (of liberal white folks) think we are more racially equitable than we really are, which isn't very...
This is interesting. I'm sure glad I don't run into people like this in Massachusetts. I'm a bit disappointed in Oregon, which was the third state I was ever in. (My parents had friends outside of Portland, and we'd drive from Seattle.)
I am always amazed at what people will say when they think they are talking to someone who is as prejudiced as they are. My husband has Lakota ancestry, for example, but a lot of people don't know that. I made up my mind about racism when I was about seven and have not changed since although I had and still have a lot to learn. I did spend three and half years in Sierra Leone (student at Fourah Bay and Peace Corps) and when I came back, I have to say people here looked very pale and not quite healthy. We also have people here in Salem who keep track of the efforts of the fundamentalists and often video what they see....yes, taking a risk. Now we have a bill in the legislature that will make it very difficult for militias like the Proud Boys to harass and intimidate. The gun nuts oppose it, but I do hope it passes.
David, having been born and raised in the Boston suburbs, my experience was that there was plenty of similar conduct there. Evangelicals weren't prevalent, but I had many neighbor children tell me that I was going to hell because I was of a different Christian denomination than they were, and one schoolteacher informed the school principal when he referred to me as "little Irish eyes" that I was no such thing, as someone in my family was a "fence-jumper," as I attended the Episcopal church. Evangelical bigotry and hypocrisy in Georgia takes on a different tone, but all of it has the same basis, and none of it bears any resemblance to the spirit of Christianity.
By the way, one child who predicted that my fate would be hellfire ended up being a huge fan of tFg. Surprised?
My Dad's father was Jewish, his mother Catholic. Very Catholic. IRISH Catholic. So the kids could do Hannukah but would go to Bible study. Fair enough.
Dad recently told me that one day some nun in Sunday school was going on about how non-believers are never saved. He went home a bit upset, related it to my Nana, and asked, "but what about Daddy?" Nana got the sternest look he'd ever seen, and simply, flatly stated, "ALL GOOD people go to Heaven."
As a "non-Catholic" 4th grader in parochial school, the nun proclaimed that my deceased father's soul was likely not to have made it to heaven. I subsequently stayed home because had a stomach ache for 3 days. My mother, who rarely took my side, eventually called the nun and said something like "just give her an education and leave out the editorial stuff".
This began my long love - hate relationship with religion. (I still love the teachings about love.)
It is amazing to me that anyone could actually purport to know, with any certainty, what God would want, what God decides, or even what God looks like. I myself don't believe in God per se, but neither do I disbelieve, because how could any human ever know for sure. Anyone who purports to know these details just strikes me as wanting to, you know... play God.
From the Crusades, to torturing thinkers like Galileo during the inquisition to "re-educating" indigenous children and ruining their lives, the Church has a lot to answer for, as do many organized religions. Even today, many forbid birth control (a la Justices Thomas and Alito) so that there will be more contributors when the offering plate is passed. Like you, I believe in being kind and contributing to the welfare of all, but I gave up on organized religion (even the moderate Episcopal church) years ago.
Not surprised by that last sentence. I missed most of the hellfire and damnation, probably partly as a result of going to a Quaker elementary school, and living in a housing development full of professors and similar. Oddly, my best friend in second grade, though Jewish, had had a friend before we met who was hellfire and damnation Christian. So, for example, my best friend got me to go to Saturday school with him, by saying, "It might make the difference between whether you're up there with those angels or down there with those devils." I was surprised when I went to Saturday school with him that there was no mention of hellfire and damnation, not even a hint of it. It was just a pleasant small group, coloring, and hearing some judaism related stories.
After second grade, we moved away, and I didn't see this guy again until I looked him up after graduating from college. He had only the vaguest memory of me, (oh, wait, he said, after five minutes of my explaining who I was and how we'd done everything together in secoind grade, "did your family live at the top of the hill and have an orange station wagon?" (That was indeed us.) And he had no recollectoin of the hellfire and damnation, and as far as I could tell he wasn't religious.
Where you lived and went to school was definitely a factor. For years, I thought that if we'd lived in the Back Bay or a similar area my experience would have been much different. As a young teen, I had many Jewish friends, and there was none of the hellfire and damnation conversation common with my Catholic (mostly Irish) friends. Much better that your long-ago friend recalled your family's orange station wagon rather than any hellfire and damnation. I'm also impressed with his second grade understanding of the choice of "up there with those angels or down there with those devils."
I must confess that despite my "friend" warning me of my destiny to burn in hell, I asked my parents if I could go to parochial school. I wasn't worried (just insulted) about the hell prediction, but "sister" school had the advantage (to me) of a later start to the school year in the Fall, an earlier end in Spring, lots of holy days off during the year, and I was fascinated by the nuns' garb - especially the veils. The downside was that nuns had the reputation of smacking your knuckles with a ruler for infractions, but I believed that my good behavior and good grades would probably exempt me from punishment. Fortunately, my mother and father (who left the Catholic church as a teenager, thus the "fence jumper" described by my 5th grade teacher) weren't having any of my pleas of attending parochial school, so I continued in the more rigorous public school system.
I was a bit surprised that Ralphie didn't remember that the station wagon was a '57 Chevy. Ralphie forgot stuff because his father had died when he was six, I think. He never talked to me about that, but my mother did. Ralphie's father had had two heart attacks, and at some point he told my mother, "my father was lucky the first time." (And my mother told me--she thought, probably rightly, that that statement was very signficant.)
Ralphie's mother was a noted interior decorator in Seattle, did work for John Ehrlichman, among others, and drove a Thunderbird. His grandfather had been a founder of Nordstrom's (this was Seattle), and Ralphie was an incredibly precocious kid. One weekend day, we were hanging around where there were swings and such, and some Black girls were there, too (this was academic year 1960-61). I referred to them as negroes, and Ralphie said, "don't call them that. It's not nice." One of them responded, "but that's what we are". He also married a woman he met in college, and they're almost certainly still married.
I don't know when Ralphie gave up the hellfire and damnation, but I'm sure he had totally forgotten about it by the time we met after college.
I live in "MetroWest". But I spent my first 50 years in Western Mass. It was a great place to grow up. A lot more space. More of the "natural world". But there are patches of scary people out there. More than a few big pickups with huge American flags and Trump stickers. Pockets of hate. I feel much safer here.
Oy. Funny, my best friend lives outside Albany NY, and I now take the back roads when I visit him and his SO, meaning Rt. 2 all the way to Williamstown and then either 2 to Albany or a couple of way-back roads through Powlan VT (the extreme southwest corner of that state) and then up to 7 in NY, which goes almost all the way to my friend's--and no trumpiness--and least none that I've seen. I HAVE seen a bit of trumpiness when taking other backroads, which I've occasionally done.
People think “Portland” when they hear of Oregon....there is SO much more out there, of the right-wing extremist variety. Same as CA, where I am from originally...again, it’s not all SF and LA...very red areas. And now we live in AZ!🤪
" As an acquaintance once said, "When someone tells me they are a Christian businessman, I hold onto my wallet and run."
While I was still in junior high, I figured out that the guys who bragged the loudest about their "conquests" were the guys who couldn't get a date if they had Cyrano de Bergerac writing their material.
Same with the folks who find it necessary to tout their "Christianity" with bells, whistles, banners and horns. They apparently missed this admonition in Matthew 6:5-6:
"“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
Because to them, it's the appearance that matters, not the substance.
In 2010, as a retired engineer with more than 30 years in heavy industry I volunteered as the "owners representative" to head up a major addition to our Episcopal church. At that point I had lots of experience with contractors both great and crooked and in between. I was working with another engineer who had been in technical sales representing the church, and we were meeting with various contractors. We sat down with one contractor, in his conference room and the first thing he had to do was open the meeting with prayer. We were not there to pray, we were there to talk about technical details and cost. This was our last meeting with this contractor.
We found another contractor from about 60 miles away who was outstanding. These were tough times for the building trades but the measure of the great contractor was how he treated his people not the show he put on.
By the way that "praying" contractor got caught praying on customers and went bankrupt.
Another sign to make you run away - a large pickup truck in the south with a Christian fish emblem stuck on the tailgate, and a confederate flag bolted onto the front bumper. Saw one yesterday.
Religion is and always has been about power. Dostoevsky's Grand Inquisitor said it perfectly. “There exists no greater or more painful anxiety for a man who has freed himself from all religious bias, than how he shall soonest find a new object or idea to worship. But man seeks to bow before that only which is recognized by the greater majority, if not by all his fellow-men, as having a right to be worshipped; whose rights are so unquestionable that men agree unanimously to bow down to it. For the chief concern of these miserable creatures is not to find and worship the idol of their own choice, but to discover that which all others will believe in, and consent to bow down to in a mass.”
Thanks, Nancy. That is exactly where I got the image. I couldn't recall what they were called. "Harpies" I think. But Harpies are a different creature all together.
Hope I was so gobsmacked by your ‘flying monkeys’ imagery that I couldn’t immediately baboonsil my way through the remainder of your spot-on commentary.
Hope From the Wizard of Oz I realized that balloons had a will of their own. At 11 I had a Coke with Frank Morgan on his yacht. To me he didn’t seem to be a malevolent balloonist.
I can’t say the same about Xi and/or his military sycophants with their ‘intelligence balloons.’
"Their own morality", as you so aptly put it, seems to be the result of way too little time reading history. As in, when the Pope owned the world, Church of England, & on & on...
From R. Scott via HCR; " But it also reflected the turn toward Christian nationalism, centering Christianity and “Judeo-Christian values” by investing in religious schools, adoption agencies, and social services and calling for an end to abortion, gender-affirming care, and diversity training. It explicitly puts religion above the law, saying “Americans will not be required to go against their core values and beliefs in order to conform to culture or government.”
Seems to me that Christian belief is centered on the concept of 'one true God', which is a faith based (and unprovable by mere humans) notion. It's a good thing in context. Except the Repubs want to put the unprovable above the law. Then, only the "leaders"will be able to make policy. Only they will be able to fix it. The religious texts of the leaders' choice will become scripture. And then, the Repubs will finally get their cummuppance.
Dan I believe that religion is a matter of personal faith. It can neither be proved or disproved by ‘facts.’ For ‘Christians,’ presumably they believe in the teachings of Jesus: love, forgiveness, and turn the other cheek. (Also that a rich man has a very slim chance of going to heaven.)
If they reject this, then I do not consider them ‘Christians.’
Each religion has its own name for 'God'. Jesus, Jehovah, Buddha, whatever. The thing religions forget is that all of these represent pure LOVE. They need to focus on that rather than their rules and man-made commandments that are the cause of so much hate and war.
Debbie Before humans ‘formalized’ religion, ‘God’ was acknowledged in agriculture, the sun, water, and in ‘birth mothers.’ Only around 3,000 BCE do we start finding historical evidence of formal religion—often linked to political power [Egypt, Ur].
Some modern religions have a diversity of ‘Gods.’ In Judaism, the diversity of ‘Gods’ was reduced to one god about 700 BCE. In Christianity there was focus on Jesus being the ‘son of God.’ While Jesus symbolized love, this was not my impression of the ‘God’ of the Old Testament.
I guess my point is that virtually every religion depicts its 'God' as love. Yet they get all tangled up in their rules and exceptions to who is worthy of love and who we should hate because they don't follow our particular set of rules, etc., etc., etc., that 'love' is hardly visible.
It amazes me how some folks drum up their own morality while toting their ill-gotten gains to the bank. Looking at you, Rick Scott, TFG, the flying monkeys of the House of Representatives, et al. As an acquaintance once said, "When someone tells me they are a Christian businessman, I hold onto my wallet and run." From Rupert Murdoch to Putin to the Christian Nationalists, when will they see that, despite calling us socialists and worse, they delude themselves most of all.
Great comment, Hope. I especially liked:
"As an acquaintance once said, "When someone tells me they are a Christian businessman, I hold onto my wallet and run.""
"After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I must wash my hands." Friedrich Nietzsche
That is an extreme position that aborts communication. On this planet there are businesses that embrace the Christian model that has not wandered too far from the “love thy neighbor...” thing. But news outlets don’t cover this.
Nor do I see cable news pundits discussing how trends in the Republican Party parallel the rise of Nazism.
I assure you it only seems extreme to those who worry their contact could evoke that response in others. To the rest of us, such feelings reflect generations of experience and millenia of history.
I do not patronize any business because of their religious views, but I do avoid many because of their sanctimonious proselytizing. It's disgusting.
Nor do I see any religious organizations denouncing the extreme right, instead just enjoying the ride on their coattails.
As Sam Smith points out so eloquently, it is the concentric circles of decreasing reason of "good" religious people by degree that ultimately makes the completely psycho religious people possible.
I see religious people rejecting hate and greed and counseling social awareness and compassion, as MLK did, but am disappointed that as a whole, there is so little visible "religious" protest (that I am aware of) of the cruel and narcissistic values of so many who claim to speak for their religion. I am not religious in any conventional sense, but I very much respect the values of some who are. Actions speak louder than words.
Your comment reminds me of the not-so-distant past, May of 2022, the Southern Baptist Convention published a list of hundreds of men in power positions who have been accused of sexual abuse. What happened to this list of hundreds? I'd like to know - the rats.
I recently found this organization: https://www.christiansagainstchristiannationalism.org/
Thinking today of Jimmy Carter, a religious man who has lived his principles. In addition, he put solar panels on the White House (which Ronald Reagan, who used tricks to get himself elected) took off.
Actions speak louder than words !
AMEN! "Ye SHALL KNOW Them!, ...by Their FRUITS!!
Many religious leaders in Portland were behind Measure 114, the gun law that voters passed here in Oregon and is currently being held up by a judge in eastern Oregon. The Oregon Supreme Court has declined to interfere until that plays out in that court.
I refuse to go into a Hobby Lobby because of their very vocal "look at me I am Christian".
They are also discriminatory and help finance a lot of intolerance. We have several places here in Salem where we will not darken the door that are local, but have made their pseudo-Christianity well known. One couple owns a couple restaurants and bragged about conning someone who asked if they had been vaccinated and they said yes because sometime as children they were for the usual things. They thought they were too clever by half. Liars and hypocrites.
Pamela, I refuse to step foot into a Hobby Lobby, too. The one near me went out of business, and I was thrilled. Did you know that they purchased plundered antiquities (from Iraq?), knowing their origins, and imported them to this country by describing them as "tiles"? I'm fuzzy about the details, but think they had to surrender them and pay restitution. In my opinion, they should have been forbidden to conduct business as a penalty. Oh, and then there's their refusal to pay for employee insurance that would have covered birth control.
Where I live, Ithaca NY, Hobby Lobby went under because enough people did as you did
same, Pamela ... for years now!
I agree that religious institutions rarely remind the public of the core of Christianity which is to love in the ways suggested in biblical texts.
I also think that theocracies generally are oppressive.
I personally have the good fortune to be part of a local church that very much embraces the core values I mentioned above.
Me, I love the art of argument but I have found that persuasion is better. To further that shift I have to be better at first finding common ground, find a way to validate the other person, walk alongside rather than go nose to nose trading glares.
I like peace too. Best wishes John Rochat
Thank you, though your comment about peace reminded me of a particularly egregious saying - "Know Jesus, Know Peace, No Jesus, No Peace" which appears to be more of an action plan. I have yet to meet any religious person who demonstrated any moral advantage over any good person of no religious indoctrination. Consider that religious beliefs are essentially determined completely by where we are born and little else. Every Christian I know (I grew up evangelical) would adamantly deny they could be Hindu or Muslim if simply born in a different part of the world, but will confidently say Hindu and Muslim peoples are "lost." Lol.
The (over)focus on white evangelical Christians does tend to obscure the truth that what makes the right-wing (white-wing?) movement so awful is not unique to evangelicals, or Christians, or religious people in general. Authoritarian movements appear not only in religions but in secular ideologies (Nazism and Stalinism for starters), and often when they arise they have widespread popular appeal.
Religious authoritarians have a head start because they can claim that their ideologies are underwritten by God. Secular authoritarians may adopt a religious veneer ("Kinder, Küche, Kirche") but they often turn into personality cults where a man (almost invariably it is a man) stands in for the deity.
I'm fascinated (as well as somewhat terrified) by the apotheosis of Donald Trump. On so many counts he's the antithesis of what the white-wing evangelicals claim to value and believe. I'm daring to believe that he's the fault line, the (I hope) fatal flaw in this home-grown fascist movement -- the fracturing of the GOP as we head toward 2024 suggests as much. But a whirlwind has been unleashed, and it's a long way from behing tamed.
*Sorry, Sam Harris
John, you now can edit on Substack! Click on the three dots (…) at the end of the line below your comment and voilà: those pesky typos can be fixed anon 😁
Yes. Moderate religious people shield the extremists.
Sam Harris
Here is a link to a talk in Minneapolis in January 2023 by Dr. Michael Emerson on his research that looks at the beliefs of Practicing White Christians (PWC). They are people who say they are Christian, who say their faith is extremely important to them, and they attend worship at least once per month. Emerson is a sociologist at Univ. of North Carolina. His book on this research is "The Grand Betrayal: The Agonizing Story of Religion, Race, and Rejection in American Life." His lecture starts at about minute 37. This was sponsored by the Minnesota Council of Churches, and the news of his survey findings is spreading. In essence, PWCs interpret biblical passages in ways that are incongruous with the meaning of biblical faith which teaches, among other things, that we should care for the foreigner, confess our own sin, etc. There is much more here: https://youtu.be/KtnmxSYH_vM
Shall look. Your American “Christianity” makes me keep a bucket near by. Emerson probably travels with a bucket handy. And the term practising white Christian’s is as much an oxymoron as … you think it up.
The problematic word in PWC is "white" because it is the group of white people in the survey (among all Christians) who registered the most positive emotions about White Privilege and the most negative emotions around Social Justice, Reparations, Undocumented Immigrants. These views are found across the board among Roman Catholics, mainline Protestants, and evangelicals who are white. So what's disturbing, Anne, is that PWCs are not only the evangelical conservative MAGAs we might think. And the bucket-worthy survey results are not explained by political party affiliation, age, residence, gender, etc. It's just about being white.
Thanks for the link
Thanks for the link. Besides confirming my fears this lasso shows that other Christians are organizing to provide a counterweight. Rock on…
Mary, when you are presented with a "Christian religious man" who tells everyone around him that gayfolk are an abomination of God, please tell me why John's quote of Nietzsche "is an extreme position that aborts communication". Please tell me how that is different from people who tell me they "hate the sin but love the sinner". How does one "communicate" with someone who believes they are an abomination and a sinner because of what some "god" said?
I agree that that is a problem and that quote has been used to justify oppression, hatred and violence. But I believe that that problem does not nullify all of Christian scripture. If I ever converse with someone who clutches that problem to his or her breast I would still try to talk about it to
Probably because they are in parallel. Read the history.
My first reaction to this quote was to chuckle and agree. Because the damage done by "religions" is arguably much greater than the good they are supposed to represent. Many of today's Bible Thumpers are terrifyingly dangerous.
But then I remind myself that as soon as we make sweeping generalizations about any group of people (except Trumpers and Nazis, etc.) we have demonstrated ignorance.
I don't have a religious bone in my body. I would tax every "church". I think that most megachurch preachers are as trustworthy as George Santos. I think it would be appropriate for the Roman Catholic church to declare itself an enemy of mankind and sell its assets to feed the poor. The Russian Orthodox version should be sent to the gulags for supporting Putin the monster. I could go on....
However, I know many people who consider themselves religious who are exemplary human beings. The fact that they have another take on faith just means they have another opinion. I still honor them for the complete humans they are - despite believing that their "faiths" are silly superstitions. I work with what people do. How do they treat others? That is all that matters to me.
That being said, the religious people who are well intentioned - accepting of all people regardless of faith or lack thereof, regardless of gender identity, color, cultural background or political views - those people, that you and I might get along with, have been way too silent. An exception, whose following I hope is growing, is John Pavlovitz. https://johnpavlovitz.com/
You will find some mighty fine people in this comments forum who are on the correct side of democracy, diversity, social justice and all around fairness. And many of them have some sort of religious faith. One is a "chaplain". I stand with them because we share core values about how we should treat people.
Love John. But, about half way into the trump years I had to stop reading his work. I had really started to despise trump voters. So now I read him periodically. He's a really good man!
Thanx for mentioning my pastor John Pavlovitz.
(Yes, the dichotomous Atheist has a pastor, just like the Non-Catholic has a patron St. Francis.)
My Jewish wife and I toured parts of Italy. Every city or large town had a duomo. Painted on the interiors were scenes of torture. People being speared, roasted and dismembered. Except for the duomo in Assisi. My wife said: "I like this guy Francis. "Franny" can be my saint". She is an animal lover, so that helped, as well.
He could be a secular saint. He sort of bucked the Catholic Church and came close to heresy. He would be forgotten today if killed by the Inquisition for heresy, but prevailed and became the gentle Saint, embraced by animal lovers and non-religious seekers.
My partner and I took off on our pilgrimage on October 4, 1975 and learned later that was the Feast of St. Francis. Synchronicity?
"...the religious people who are well intentioned ... have been way too silent."
I disagree, emphatically. They are not so much silent as unheard: ignored as not relevant and thus not quoted. That's on us, buried in our own silo that divides people into handy representational categories. Not all religious people carry a flag that says so. Maybe we need to open ourselves up to be receptive.
It's true that they don't make the headlines because they aren't outrageous. You are right. It's on us to listen. I'll work harder on that.
But to break through in this world, we need to do something attention grabbing. Maybe a big electric F-150 pickup with a flag of Jesus (black version, of course) with the words "Proud Democrat"?
We just have to get out of our own silos and pay attention to what is really going on instead of just assuming we already know. Not sure flying a flag is going to help out a lot with that. It's still letting the extremists set the standard. Let's face the other way and pay closer attention to who else is working with us that we are too blind to see. Or hear.
I've toyed with the idea of flying the National Colors and the Pride flag from my half-ton pickup (sadly, not electric). But I'm not sure how safe I'd be.
Although I belong to a different Faith, "Faithful America" is a wonderful group of Christians who are fighting peacefully and having an affect, against Christian Nationalist. They are against the extremist who have twisted the teachings of Christ. Please check them out, they need support. I'm sadly not tech savvy to put a link.
FaithfulAmerica.org
I think you mean this one:
https://faithfulamerica.org/
David, I was about to say that, too. You and Hope beat me to it. I've always known that I was in good company here in Heather's Herd, and that belief has been reinforced.
The good news, to me, is that these insane bigots on the extreme right are finally spelling out their plans in public. I hope that we won't be disappointed at the reaction of every sane person in this country.
Nancy, My guess is that we won’t be disappointed, presuming we respond proactively. To clarify, in my view, the outcome of future elections could land primarily on how effectively Biden and Democratic leadership manage the upheaval much of the GOP feasts on. Democrats need to lead in this moment when GOP far-right extremists are fueling hate and division. They have to go where the trouble is in this country, the trouble the GOP extremists are stoking, the trouble said extremists are making worse. Democrats must go there and meet with the people who doubt that Democrats care about the wreckage of their dreams and show they can work on legitimate issues and grievances.
I agree, Barbara Jo. I don't understand why so many people don't already know the valuable things that Biden has accomplished, and my guess is that it is due to the fact that Biden is not a charismatic speaker. His life-long speech impediment has hampered his ability to get past many peoples' affinity for style above substance.
Nancy, While I mostly agree with your thoughts about Biden, please note that when I wrote, “They [Dems] have to go where the trouble is…” I was speaking about our local, state, and federal representatives. Moreover, I wasn’t expecting these officials merely to enumerate the accomplishments of the past two years, which, compliments of Manchin and Sinema, were dramatically edited down. Instead, I expect Democrats authentically to empathize with legitimate grievances and inequities and to demonstrate their commitment to implementing meaningful change.
Yes, Barbara Jo, local politics is essential to any real progress. I agree, too, that the Democrats need to listen and help everyone who's aggrieved and hurting.
Be nice if MSM. did their jobs as well as Rupert spews hate and division
Jeri, While I don’t disagree with your assessment of much of MSM and have served as a lay media critic for some time, I also believe in pressing our Democratic representatives to do a better job of messaging both their agenda and the harms and injustices each time it is blocked.
Absolutely, the Dems are awful at messaging - from "defund the police" on. It looks as though Biden's trying.
Amen to that!
The real concern is how many are NOT sane! And vote.
The number of sane people is the problem.
“Half of republicans” (supporting “Christian” nationalism) is indeed a lot of people, but what proportion of the total voting population is that now - 20%,25%?
Heavy turnout of "sane" voters in '22 made the difference between having a red tsunami and a pink trickle. Fingers crossed.
This line bothered me too. Per 2022 Gallup polls of party affiliation, ~28% identify as Republicans; 30% as Dem, 40% Independent. MSM routinely disingenuously frames Dem/Repub split like it is 50-50. The article that HCR referenced says "According to the PRRI/Brookings study, only 10% of Americans view themselves as adherents of Christian nationalism and about 19% of Americans said they sympathize with these views."
Those numbers are still very concerning and require that we all draw attention to this dangerous threat in our society with friends and via any platform we have because 81% of Americans are NOT among the crazies.
Yes, it’s still a lot of people And important to try to counteract. Thanks for calling attention to the reference, I hadn’t checked. Who knew Marjorie Taylor Greene was a Christian, though? Not real noticeable, imho.
David “Onward Christian businessmen
Coming forth to steal,
Why should we pay taxes
To pay for a poor folk meal?’
What Nancy Fleming said, directly below!
Perfect, and funny, too, Keith.
Thank you David. I am pleased we are LFAA friends.
Me too! You keep putting smiles on my face.
Are you referring to Letters From An American? 👍🏼
Yes
Yup
Had to be!!
We have a particularly sleazy developer right here in River City (Salem, OR) that touts his Christianity. My neighbor, when she finds out someone is a fundamentalist, says watch your back. Yes, run, don't walk. I also reminded of another person, neighbor of my in-laws who made much of his Christianity. And he called us at night to ask my husband, who worked at Employment, to somehow make things work for him. My husband refused. Then later one, he commented to me at a party at my in-laws that the neighborhood had changed, meaning that it was no longer lily white. I just smiled and said yes, it is more diverse. This turkey and all the others have no idea of who Jesus was or what he said in the first three Gospels.
So you're saying you got trouble?
Right there? In River City?
*ducks out of the way of splatting tomatoes*
Yes they do. Here in Eugene, too, and it ain't spelled "pool"!
Gotta keep our children moral after school!
I tell ya people we got TROUBLE, terrible terrible, trouble, with a capital P & that does stands for Pool!
Are there words creeping into your son's conversation? Words like "swell" and "so's your old man?"
MASS-STERIA!!!
Oregon is a weird critter when it comes to its attitude regarding anyone not white. We removed racist language from our constitution in 2002 and repealed the section of our constitution that permitted slavery or involuntary servitude as punishment for a crime just this last year. There were "sundown towns" in Oregon as late as the 1960's. Our racist roots run deep and no "whitewashing" will change that.
With that in mind, larger metropolitan areas are better than smaller towns, but there is still awful discrimination and harassment that goes on for BIPOC. I have become friendly with women who run two restaurants in town (one Vietnamese and one Chinese) and both have had their businesses targeted for vandalism in the past several years. A big problem in Eugene in particular is that the global "we" (of liberal white folks) think we are more racially equitable than we really are, which isn't very...
Damn funny!
This is interesting. I'm sure glad I don't run into people like this in Massachusetts. I'm a bit disappointed in Oregon, which was the third state I was ever in. (My parents had friends outside of Portland, and we'd drive from Seattle.)
I am always amazed at what people will say when they think they are talking to someone who is as prejudiced as they are. My husband has Lakota ancestry, for example, but a lot of people don't know that. I made up my mind about racism when I was about seven and have not changed since although I had and still have a lot to learn. I did spend three and half years in Sierra Leone (student at Fourah Bay and Peace Corps) and when I came back, I have to say people here looked very pale and not quite healthy. We also have people here in Salem who keep track of the efforts of the fundamentalists and often video what they see....yes, taking a risk. Now we have a bill in the legislature that will make it very difficult for militias like the Proud Boys to harass and intimidate. The gun nuts oppose it, but I do hope it passes.
There's a really awesome guy on Twitter - Lakota Man - who more than 456K followers. Cool dude.
I've run into Lakota man--yes, good guy!
I sure hope it passes, too.
David, having been born and raised in the Boston suburbs, my experience was that there was plenty of similar conduct there. Evangelicals weren't prevalent, but I had many neighbor children tell me that I was going to hell because I was of a different Christian denomination than they were, and one schoolteacher informed the school principal when he referred to me as "little Irish eyes" that I was no such thing, as someone in my family was a "fence-jumper," as I attended the Episcopal church. Evangelical bigotry and hypocrisy in Georgia takes on a different tone, but all of it has the same basis, and none of it bears any resemblance to the spirit of Christianity.
By the way, one child who predicted that my fate would be hellfire ended up being a huge fan of tFg. Surprised?
My Dad's father was Jewish, his mother Catholic. Very Catholic. IRISH Catholic. So the kids could do Hannukah but would go to Bible study. Fair enough.
Dad recently told me that one day some nun in Sunday school was going on about how non-believers are never saved. He went home a bit upset, related it to my Nana, and asked, "but what about Daddy?" Nana got the sternest look he'd ever seen, and simply, flatly stated, "ALL GOOD people go to Heaven."
The kids never went to Sunday school again.
As a "non-Catholic" 4th grader in parochial school, the nun proclaimed that my deceased father's soul was likely not to have made it to heaven. I subsequently stayed home because had a stomach ache for 3 days. My mother, who rarely took my side, eventually called the nun and said something like "just give her an education and leave out the editorial stuff".
This began my long love - hate relationship with religion. (I still love the teachings about love.)
I just had to look this up again, for it is one of the most moving things I have ever seen: https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2018/04/16/my-dad-heaven-little-boy-asks-pope
It is amazing to me that anyone could actually purport to know, with any certainty, what God would want, what God decides, or even what God looks like. I myself don't believe in God per se, but neither do I disbelieve, because how could any human ever know for sure. Anyone who purports to know these details just strikes me as wanting to, you know... play God.
From the Crusades, to torturing thinkers like Galileo during the inquisition to "re-educating" indigenous children and ruining their lives, the Church has a lot to answer for, as do many organized religions. Even today, many forbid birth control (a la Justices Thomas and Alito) so that there will be more contributors when the offering plate is passed. Like you, I believe in being kind and contributing to the welfare of all, but I gave up on organized religion (even the moderate Episcopal church) years ago.
Good for Nana! Clearly, she hadn't been thoroughly indoctrinated, which was a good thing for her children.
Not surprised by that last sentence. I missed most of the hellfire and damnation, probably partly as a result of going to a Quaker elementary school, and living in a housing development full of professors and similar. Oddly, my best friend in second grade, though Jewish, had had a friend before we met who was hellfire and damnation Christian. So, for example, my best friend got me to go to Saturday school with him, by saying, "It might make the difference between whether you're up there with those angels or down there with those devils." I was surprised when I went to Saturday school with him that there was no mention of hellfire and damnation, not even a hint of it. It was just a pleasant small group, coloring, and hearing some judaism related stories.
After second grade, we moved away, and I didn't see this guy again until I looked him up after graduating from college. He had only the vaguest memory of me, (oh, wait, he said, after five minutes of my explaining who I was and how we'd done everything together in secoind grade, "did your family live at the top of the hill and have an orange station wagon?" (That was indeed us.) And he had no recollectoin of the hellfire and damnation, and as far as I could tell he wasn't religious.
Where you lived and went to school was definitely a factor. For years, I thought that if we'd lived in the Back Bay or a similar area my experience would have been much different. As a young teen, I had many Jewish friends, and there was none of the hellfire and damnation conversation common with my Catholic (mostly Irish) friends. Much better that your long-ago friend recalled your family's orange station wagon rather than any hellfire and damnation. I'm also impressed with his second grade understanding of the choice of "up there with those angels or down there with those devils."
I must confess that despite my "friend" warning me of my destiny to burn in hell, I asked my parents if I could go to parochial school. I wasn't worried (just insulted) about the hell prediction, but "sister" school had the advantage (to me) of a later start to the school year in the Fall, an earlier end in Spring, lots of holy days off during the year, and I was fascinated by the nuns' garb - especially the veils. The downside was that nuns had the reputation of smacking your knuckles with a ruler for infractions, but I believed that my good behavior and good grades would probably exempt me from punishment. Fortunately, my mother and father (who left the Catholic church as a teenager, thus the "fence jumper" described by my 5th grade teacher) weren't having any of my pleas of attending parochial school, so I continued in the more rigorous public school system.
I was a bit surprised that Ralphie didn't remember that the station wagon was a '57 Chevy. Ralphie forgot stuff because his father had died when he was six, I think. He never talked to me about that, but my mother did. Ralphie's father had had two heart attacks, and at some point he told my mother, "my father was lucky the first time." (And my mother told me--she thought, probably rightly, that that statement was very signficant.)
Ralphie's mother was a noted interior decorator in Seattle, did work for John Ehrlichman, among others, and drove a Thunderbird. His grandfather had been a founder of Nordstrom's (this was Seattle), and Ralphie was an incredibly precocious kid. One weekend day, we were hanging around where there were swings and such, and some Black girls were there, too (this was academic year 1960-61). I referred to them as negroes, and Ralphie said, "don't call them that. It's not nice." One of them responded, "but that's what we are". He also married a woman he met in college, and they're almost certainly still married.
I don't know when Ralphie gave up the hellfire and damnation, but I'm sure he had totally forgotten about it by the time we met after college.
Not surprised.
Hi David,
I live in "MetroWest". But I spent my first 50 years in Western Mass. It was a great place to grow up. A lot more space. More of the "natural world". But there are patches of scary people out there. More than a few big pickups with huge American flags and Trump stickers. Pockets of hate. I feel much safer here.
They are here in the South Shore of Boston too. They look so foolish.
Oy. Funny, my best friend lives outside Albany NY, and I now take the back roads when I visit him and his SO, meaning Rt. 2 all the way to Williamstown and then either 2 to Albany or a couple of way-back roads through Powlan VT (the extreme southwest corner of that state) and then up to 7 in NY, which goes almost all the way to my friend's--and no trumpiness--and least none that I've seen. I HAVE seen a bit of trumpiness when taking other backroads, which I've occasionally done.
People think “Portland” when they hear of Oregon....there is SO much more out there, of the right-wing extremist variety. Same as CA, where I am from originally...again, it’s not all SF and LA...very red areas. And now we live in AZ!🤪
I live in Boise. Now a huge swath of Eastern Oregon wants to become Idaho because Oregon isn't racist enough.
Yes, have read about this movement😡
And I have friends in the Willamette Valley that want us to do that as well.
Michele, I grow up in Salem, OR.
I agree when I see a sign in a business with “in god we trust” I head the other way knowing that I am (pardon the language) screwed.
Don't forget the sentence that follows "In God we trust." "All others pay cash,"
Exactly. Because if you pay in cash, they can “forget” to report it to the IRS.
Our “Constitutional” Sheriff put “ In God We Trust” on the back of all the patrol cars.
That would make me completely insane and I would have to start a revolution!
That disturbs me greatly. Unless he also put "All others checked through NCIC" but I strongly doubt he'd do that.
NCIC is the national clearinghouse for holding warrants on wanted folks, stolen things, and other items of police inquiry.
In God We Trust. All others pay cash. Wasn’t that originally coined by the Three Wise Men: Neiman. Marcus, and Macy?
Just as (back in the days of yellow pages ads being where you looked to find stuff) I stayed away from the "fish" that was so prevalent a time back.
When I was a kid I always saw those fish on the backs of people's cars.
I thought it was a chill way to communicate they liked surfing.
HA! I love that! Oh, you say you're from Cal? Who could have guessed? ;)
I bought my nephew (a pagan) one of those that had legs and a tail and read "Darwin" in the middle...
I like your younger self's translation of that!!
North Carolina has I think 3 background choices for automobile license plates. One is "In God We Trust". I always select "First in Flight".
I've seen igwt on several plates; most commonly Utah, but I think I've seen it in one of the "I" states. Indiana maybe?
Then I did a Google search and found this:
https://www.blitzwatch.org/in-god-we-trust-license-plates#:~:text=Current%20Status-,%E2%80%9CIn%20God%20We%20Trust%E2%80%9D%20license%20plates%20are%20already%20available%20in,%2C%20West%20Virginia%2C%20and%20Wisconsin.
All, thank you for posting that. I had no idea and will definitely spread the word. Horrifying.
It was pretty disturbing to me.
Translated, it means:
"IN THI$ WE TRUST"
I ran the other way when the local interior design studio posted an “I Support the Second” sticker. Huh?
"the flying monkeys of the House of Representatives"...and their lying flunkies.
Good one!
" As an acquaintance once said, "When someone tells me they are a Christian businessman, I hold onto my wallet and run."
While I was still in junior high, I figured out that the guys who bragged the loudest about their "conquests" were the guys who couldn't get a date if they had Cyrano de Bergerac writing their material.
Same with the folks who find it necessary to tout their "Christianity" with bells, whistles, banners and horns. They apparently missed this admonition in Matthew 6:5-6:
"“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
Because to them, it's the appearance that matters, not the substance.
Ah yes, praying loudly in the Temple. I always look at actions and not words.
In 2010, as a retired engineer with more than 30 years in heavy industry I volunteered as the "owners representative" to head up a major addition to our Episcopal church. At that point I had lots of experience with contractors both great and crooked and in between. I was working with another engineer who had been in technical sales representing the church, and we were meeting with various contractors. We sat down with one contractor, in his conference room and the first thing he had to do was open the meeting with prayer. We were not there to pray, we were there to talk about technical details and cost. This was our last meeting with this contractor.
We found another contractor from about 60 miles away who was outstanding. These were tough times for the building trades but the measure of the great contractor was how he treated his people not the show he put on.
By the way that "praying" contractor got caught praying on customers and went bankrupt.
You had me at “flying monkeys of the House of Representatives,” 😂😂😂
"the flying monkeys of the House of Representatives" I love it. :)
Another sign to make you run away - a large pickup truck in the south with a Christian fish emblem stuck on the tailgate, and a confederate flag bolted onto the front bumper. Saw one yesterday.
James Sounds like a bipolar Republican. There’s no Jesus in that message.
Janet “Fish got to swim
and birds got to fly
As Lake Powell dries up
Even Boebert is gonna die.”
And they voted in a very conflicted and very confused congressperson. Shame on them. IT weakens our democracy.
Religion is and always has been about power. Dostoevsky's Grand Inquisitor said it perfectly. “There exists no greater or more painful anxiety for a man who has freed himself from all religious bias, than how he shall soonest find a new object or idea to worship. But man seeks to bow before that only which is recognized by the greater majority, if not by all his fellow-men, as having a right to be worshipped; whose rights are so unquestionable that men agree unanimously to bow down to it. For the chief concern of these miserable creatures is not to find and worship the idol of their own choice, but to discover that which all others will believe in, and consent to bow down to in a mass.”
Here is Sir John Gielgud playing the Grand Inquisitor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om6HcUUa8DI
Love the term and image of “flying monkeys”! Brings to minds scene in the “Wizard of Oz”
Thanks, Nancy. That is exactly where I got the image. I couldn't recall what they were called. "Harpies" I think. But Harpies are a different creature all together.
AHEM! Run
Hope I was so gobsmacked by your ‘flying monkeys’ imagery that I couldn’t immediately baboonsil my way through the remainder of your spot-on commentary.
Hi Keith! Alas, I am not too original. The image comes from The Wizard of Oz (which fits our current times in so many ways!) A big "heart" to you.
Hope From the Wizard of Oz I realized that balloons had a will of their own. At 11 I had a Coke with Frank Morgan on his yacht. To me he didn’t seem to be a malevolent balloonist.
I can’t say the same about Xi and/or his military sycophants with their ‘intelligence balloons.’
"Their own morality", as you so aptly put it, seems to be the result of way too little time reading history. As in, when the Pope owned the world, Church of England, & on & on...
From R. Scott via HCR; " But it also reflected the turn toward Christian nationalism, centering Christianity and “Judeo-Christian values” by investing in religious schools, adoption agencies, and social services and calling for an end to abortion, gender-affirming care, and diversity training. It explicitly puts religion above the law, saying “Americans will not be required to go against their core values and beliefs in order to conform to culture or government.”
Seems to me that Christian belief is centered on the concept of 'one true God', which is a faith based (and unprovable by mere humans) notion. It's a good thing in context. Except the Repubs want to put the unprovable above the law. Then, only the "leaders"will be able to make policy. Only they will be able to fix it. The religious texts of the leaders' choice will become scripture. And then, the Repubs will finally get their cummuppance.
Dan I believe that religion is a matter of personal faith. It can neither be proved or disproved by ‘facts.’ For ‘Christians,’ presumably they believe in the teachings of Jesus: love, forgiveness, and turn the other cheek. (Also that a rich man has a very slim chance of going to heaven.)
If they reject this, then I do not consider them ‘Christians.’
Each religion has its own name for 'God'. Jesus, Jehovah, Buddha, whatever. The thing religions forget is that all of these represent pure LOVE. They need to focus on that rather than their rules and man-made commandments that are the cause of so much hate and war.
Debbie Before humans ‘formalized’ religion, ‘God’ was acknowledged in agriculture, the sun, water, and in ‘birth mothers.’ Only around 3,000 BCE do we start finding historical evidence of formal religion—often linked to political power [Egypt, Ur].
Some modern religions have a diversity of ‘Gods.’ In Judaism, the diversity of ‘Gods’ was reduced to one god about 700 BCE. In Christianity there was focus on Jesus being the ‘son of God.’ While Jesus symbolized love, this was not my impression of the ‘God’ of the Old Testament.
I guess my point is that virtually every religion depicts its 'God' as love. Yet they get all tangled up in their rules and exceptions to who is worthy of love and who we should hate because they don't follow our particular set of rules, etc., etc., etc., that 'love' is hardly visible.
Well said.
Upcoming election in Wisconsin for election of justice on state Supreme Court. Important for Democracy. Participate.
From Politics Girl, Leigh McGowan on making a difference in Wisconsin. And our country.
https://youtu.be/NWoWDQsLM7g
I signed up several days ago!
"flying monkeys" is perfect!