My stomach just did a flip when I read this: “… Peter Navarro’s claim that he, Trump, and Trump loyalist Steve Bannon had a peaceful plan to overturn the election and that the three of them were “the last three people on God’s good Earth who wanted to see violence erupt on Capitol Hill.”
As if having a peaceful plan to overturn the electi…
My stomach just did a flip when I read this: “… Peter Navarro’s claim that he, Trump, and Trump loyalist Steve Bannon had a peaceful plan to overturn the election and that the three of them were “the last three people on God’s good Earth who wanted to see violence erupt on Capitol Hill.”
As if having a peaceful plan to overturn the election makes it ok?? My god! And he has all but admitted to the scheme in writing! WTF more is it going to take to lock these guys up?
And as a follow on to my earlier thought about the 3 Supremes....if Trump did call any of them...will they open their judicial robes and recuse themselves from the decision to release his phone records? Of course he wants them to decide. If they did talk directly with Trump or any Trump official about their plan...will we see Supremes being deposed by the Jan 6 committee? Holy cow it would make a great movie.
I try not to be pejorative. Merely, a self-styled support group for the perpetuation of circular thought pretenting to be brilliant, to each other. But I fail sometimes. Evidence be damned, it is our beliefs, well fed by the crackers and cheese of time, that matters, I suggest as their core approach to constitutional and democratic scholarship. Darn, there I go failing again. So, yes.
It may take 50 or more years like it did for all the Nixon garbage to really get out. And there are still people who won’t believe it or - at least - let others believe it.
If Nixon had somehow been returned to power after his resignation, 50 years would not have been nearly enough, and much of the evidence would have been destroyed or accidentally "lost" like the 18 minute Oval Office recording. If Trump or his minions return to the majority in 2022, and especially if he or a successor return to the Presidency in 2024, it's a pretty safe bet that Trump's post-election actions will be fully lost to history.
I know you’re right. These are precarious times. I travel to see relative s and even when they agree with me, few of them are well-informed. It’s mind boggling to see!
I saw an interesting tweet with video this morning that relates to this point. The video features Michael Ravi Sherman, former Assistant United States Attorney, speaking at a podium with the seal of United States Department of Justice behind him. The “Former” in his title is misleading. He is now so, but he held that position until March 2021. So he is speaking officially in this video.
The video is from the week after the January 6 insurrection.
Sherman says, “Just yesterday our office formed a strike force of very senior National Security prosecutors and Public Corruption prosecutors. Their only marching orders from me are to build seditious and corruption charges relating to the most heinous acts that occurred in the Capitol…that have felonies with prison terms of up to twenty years.”
Mr. Sherman was appointed by Trump.
Lawrence Tribe, American legal scholar and Professor Emeritus at Harvard University, questions in a subsequent tweet, “Where ARE these charges of seditious conspiracy?”
There has not been a single charge of that ilk to date. I am a nobody who shoots from the hip in my fairly frequent criticisms of Merrick Garland’s leadership at the DOJ. But I’ll take Lawrence Tribe’s word that something is badly amiss.
Democracy appears to be holding from a single thread - the House Committee. That thread has the look of being made of Kevlar. The Committee has been magnificent, both dogged and strategic.
But they have no power to bring anyone to justice. For that, the “strike force” at the DOJ is needed.
The key is the House Committee has no power, hence the urgency to move things to the DOJ ASAP and then they have to move expeditiously and while working within the rule of law also not take any crap or put up with any unfounded attempts by the criminal cabal to stall. Getting these criminals into a court of law is where the rubber meets the road! And, broadcast the trials!
You’re not a nobody to me, Eric. Like so many many people in this community, you are smart, principled, savvy, with deep insight into these issues. Thank you so much for your participation here.
Thank you for expressing this so well and so succinctly. I had to go back and reread that section to see if I had misunderstood. I can’t process the idea that a “peaceful” undoing of a fair election is being put forward as a defense. Trump, Stone, Bannon and Navarro must be prosecuted.
Here is another stomach turning thought. Peter has basically flat out said that 100 congressman were in on this and agreed to play their part along with Trump and his other advisors. Is it, knowing Trump's lack of shame, unreasonable to think he also made calls to his supreme court appointees to be sure of their support, if this plan actually had succeeded? Clearly they thought they would have it after they had ripped the heart out of democracy as "peacefully" as they were intending. Stone was clearly Trump's back up plan to Pence's refusal to run the play. Stone knew they were going to need to storm the capital and pulled the pin early rather than wait 24 hours - ever eager to be the hero of the GOP.
But. It. Didn't. Work. Everything they did was despicable and criminal. But it didn't work the way they wanted it to. They have demonstrated that have no respect for the Law or the Constitution. For that they need to be held criminally responsible, removed from office, and/or not be allowed to serve in any political office ever again. Then Citizens United needs to be struck down to close that avenue.
Thankfully it didn't work! It is quite plausible that Trump was supportung both sides of the Bannon, Trump, Stone triangle. That Navarro and Bannon hate Stone probably isn't even true and is irrelevant. Trump and his minions plotted a coup PERIOD! I think we are beginning to hear the story we will be told during the public hearings beginning in January. Trump was in charge and okayed the coup. He thought what he watched on TV was really working. He was giving Stone's people time to overcome the police. The Fox TV people got scared because they saw the optics were horrible and CYA texts flew to Meadows. Then it unexpectedly all went sideways. Congress came back and the certification was completed despite all efforts to delay or overturn it. I'd like to know more about how that came about!? I'd like to know if Navarro, former Fox employee, had Hannity, Ingraham, and Carlson queued up to cover the aftermath of the insurrection. Does that make them culpable if they knew about the Bannon and Stone plans? The point of their texts was to make it sound like they were caught by surprise. I doubt that very much. Can the DOJ open an investigation on the Fox organization if they were even tangently involved?
Excellent point. I'm sure this is yet another reason tfg is trying so desperately to keep those records from being turned over. And if this happens to be the case (that he made calls to "his" people on the Stench Bench) would they recuse themselves from deciding whether or not those records of phone calls made TO THEM should be released? Perhaps the SC needs to subpoena the phone records of Barrett, Kavanaugh, and Gorsuch?
The hearings are essential first-the public needs to know who did what in order to understand the impact of what was done to our Congress. The background is necessary so when the trials happen, the public will know why the charges are being levied and are legitimate.
I cannot imagine that all the information would not appear in the trials And the rebuttals to the lies would be presented along with, as as part of, the information
Robert Hubbell put out in his newsletter yesterday that the public hearings will reach millions while very few would read the written report. He made a comparison to the televised Watergate hearings. The one glitch I see here is where they will be broadcast. For Watergate we had few channels; CBS, ABC, NBC. There was no massive cable network that the people would have to turn specifically to. The country was almost forced to view what was happening. The Fox propaganda machine won’t show these hearings. We’ll have to tune in to c-span and it’s an active choice.
Yes public TRIALS INFORMATION comes out in PUBLIC TRIALS not only in congressional hearings Think of the Nuremberg TRIALS Did they first have to have some legislative body delve and delve and delve . No. they had the trials and the information emerged and the punishments were decided
Exactly. And I don't understand how the "Green Bay Sweep" is in any way evidence of exonerating "Trump and Bannon and throw(ing) responsibility for the violence to others, notably Stone." It smacks of a conspiracy involving ALL of them, including the 100 they were recruiting to play along with their plan. Whether or not there was a "peaceful" plan or a "violent" plan to overturn the election, it was a PLAN to OVERTURN the election.
"WTF more is it going to take..." I'm so with you, its like the Jan 6th gang are throwing pebbles against AR-15ers. What is taking so long, its right in front of our eyes. Arrest them, lock them up and seek justice, our country is slipping away. And Garland, another disappointment. MOVE. NOW.
Especially when all they are trying to do is run out the clock. 45 has done this his whole life, what part of his M.O. are they not getting?! Strategize they way he has his whole life. I fear for our country, its no longer a joke, we are in a dire situation of losing it. But lets all hang in there Linda, I'm also an optimist, without being a Pollyanna. Smile and cheers to 2022!
Distancing themselves from violence is the key to staying out of jail. 18USC 2384 reads:
"If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both."
Notice that in virtually every clause "by force" is an integral element of the offense. It is not clear what Federal law would otherwise have been violated by encouraging various political actors and officeholders to question the election results. We also need to keep in mind that the Constitution--while democratically aspirational in places--was constructed ins significant part to create barriers to "mob rule" . One of these--even after amendments- is the electoral college and its mechanics.
Seeing how our laws might be changed to protect democratic voting mechanisms is one of the strongest LEGISLATIVE reasons underpinning the Jan 6 Commission''s work.
My stomach just did a flip when I read this: “… Peter Navarro’s claim that he, Trump, and Trump loyalist Steve Bannon had a peaceful plan to overturn the election and that the three of them were “the last three people on God’s good Earth who wanted to see violence erupt on Capitol Hill.”
As if having a peaceful plan to overturn the election makes it ok?? My god! And he has all but admitted to the scheme in writing! WTF more is it going to take to lock these guys up?
And as a follow on to my earlier thought about the 3 Supremes....if Trump did call any of them...will they open their judicial robes and recuse themselves from the decision to release his phone records? Of course he wants them to decide. If they did talk directly with Trump or any Trump official about their plan...will we see Supremes being deposed by the Jan 6 committee? Holy cow it would make a great movie.
"Supremes" is a misnomer when referring to tRump's court appointees. Pardon me while I put on a recording of the real Supremes.
Exactly, Richard. I imagine them saying to the former’s “war room”……Stop, in the name of love. https://youtu.be/JKV0BGjY6Pg
I hope someone at SNL reads this comment. So visual.
Too funny! I enjoyed the song once again.
LOL!!!!!!!
I would only use a small s when referring to the three court acolytes in residence.
Do you by chance refer to the Federalist Society's political hacks?
I try not to be pejorative. Merely, a self-styled support group for the perpetuation of circular thought pretenting to be brilliant, to each other. But I fail sometimes. Evidence be damned, it is our beliefs, well fed by the crackers and cheese of time, that matters, I suggest as their core approach to constitutional and democratic scholarship. Darn, there I go failing again. So, yes.
That’s a good start, Fred. Maybe we should choose a different word for these particular 3 justices, rather than “supremes.”
Like “saps.” or perhaps “sycophants” or “schmucks.”
Ideologues. Appointed to craft a precedents that favor a confederacy with beliefs consisten with 17th century Alabama.
It may take 50 or more years like it did for all the Nixon garbage to really get out. And there are still people who won’t believe it or - at least - let others believe it.
If Nixon had somehow been returned to power after his resignation, 50 years would not have been nearly enough, and much of the evidence would have been destroyed or accidentally "lost" like the 18 minute Oval Office recording. If Trump or his minions return to the majority in 2022, and especially if he or a successor return to the Presidency in 2024, it's a pretty safe bet that Trump's post-election actions will be fully lost to history.
I know you’re right. These are precarious times. I travel to see relative s and even when they agree with me, few of them are well-informed. It’s mind boggling to see!
I saw an interesting tweet with video this morning that relates to this point. The video features Michael Ravi Sherman, former Assistant United States Attorney, speaking at a podium with the seal of United States Department of Justice behind him. The “Former” in his title is misleading. He is now so, but he held that position until March 2021. So he is speaking officially in this video.
The video is from the week after the January 6 insurrection.
Sherman says, “Just yesterday our office formed a strike force of very senior National Security prosecutors and Public Corruption prosecutors. Their only marching orders from me are to build seditious and corruption charges relating to the most heinous acts that occurred in the Capitol…that have felonies with prison terms of up to twenty years.”
Mr. Sherman was appointed by Trump.
Lawrence Tribe, American legal scholar and Professor Emeritus at Harvard University, questions in a subsequent tweet, “Where ARE these charges of seditious conspiracy?”
There has not been a single charge of that ilk to date. I am a nobody who shoots from the hip in my fairly frequent criticisms of Merrick Garland’s leadership at the DOJ. But I’ll take Lawrence Tribe’s word that something is badly amiss.
Democracy appears to be holding from a single thread - the House Committee. That thread has the look of being made of Kevlar. The Committee has been magnificent, both dogged and strategic.
But they have no power to bring anyone to justice. For that, the “strike force” at the DOJ is needed.
It is, at the least, a worry.
The key is the House Committee has no power, hence the urgency to move things to the DOJ ASAP and then they have to move expeditiously and while working within the rule of law also not take any crap or put up with any unfounded attempts by the criminal cabal to stall. Getting these criminals into a court of law is where the rubber meets the road! And, broadcast the trials!
If there is a criminal trial, it definitely should be broadcasted. I for one would watch every minute.
You’re not a nobody to me, Eric. Like so many many people in this community, you are smart, principled, savvy, with deep insight into these issues. Thank you so much for your participation here.
Thank you for expressing this so well and so succinctly. I had to go back and reread that section to see if I had misunderstood. I can’t process the idea that a “peaceful” undoing of a fair election is being put forward as a defense. Trump, Stone, Bannon and Navarro must be prosecuted.
“Trump, Stone, Bannon and Navarro must be prosecuted.”
Here is another stomach turning thought. Peter has basically flat out said that 100 congressman were in on this and agreed to play their part along with Trump and his other advisors. Is it, knowing Trump's lack of shame, unreasonable to think he also made calls to his supreme court appointees to be sure of their support, if this plan actually had succeeded? Clearly they thought they would have it after they had ripped the heart out of democracy as "peacefully" as they were intending. Stone was clearly Trump's back up plan to Pence's refusal to run the play. Stone knew they were going to need to storm the capital and pulled the pin early rather than wait 24 hours - ever eager to be the hero of the GOP.
But. It. Didn't. Work. Everything they did was despicable and criminal. But it didn't work the way they wanted it to. They have demonstrated that have no respect for the Law or the Constitution. For that they need to be held criminally responsible, removed from office, and/or not be allowed to serve in any political office ever again. Then Citizens United needs to be struck down to close that avenue.
Thankfully it didn't work! It is quite plausible that Trump was supportung both sides of the Bannon, Trump, Stone triangle. That Navarro and Bannon hate Stone probably isn't even true and is irrelevant. Trump and his minions plotted a coup PERIOD! I think we are beginning to hear the story we will be told during the public hearings beginning in January. Trump was in charge and okayed the coup. He thought what he watched on TV was really working. He was giving Stone's people time to overcome the police. The Fox TV people got scared because they saw the optics were horrible and CYA texts flew to Meadows. Then it unexpectedly all went sideways. Congress came back and the certification was completed despite all efforts to delay or overturn it. I'd like to know more about how that came about!? I'd like to know if Navarro, former Fox employee, had Hannity, Ingraham, and Carlson queued up to cover the aftermath of the insurrection. Does that make them culpable if they knew about the Bannon and Stone plans? The point of their texts was to make it sound like they were caught by surprise. I doubt that very much. Can the DOJ open an investigation on the Fox organization if they were even tangently involved?
Excellent point. I'm sure this is yet another reason tfg is trying so desperately to keep those records from being turned over. And if this happens to be the case (that he made calls to "his" people on the Stench Bench) would they recuse themselves from deciding whether or not those records of phone calls made TO THEM should be released? Perhaps the SC needs to subpoena the phone records of Barrett, Kavanaugh, and Gorsuch?
Stench bench...I really like that name.
Agree . . . then there is this which is infuriating: https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/28/politics/january-6-committee-interim-report-summer-2022/index.html
Good lord, we don't need public hearings we need public trials! ENOUGH already!!
The hearings are essential first-the public needs to know who did what in order to understand the impact of what was done to our Congress. The background is necessary so when the trials happen, the public will know why the charges are being levied and are legitimate.
Sorry, Barbara, I wrote my comment before reading your better one.
But we do need public hearings. Trumpies, all millions of them, need to be shown exactly what they're supporting, and why trials are necessary.
Sadly this will have no affect on them whatsoever. Our only hope is that it will energize Democrats to actually vote.
Of course, you're correct, but considering Biden's poor polling, we do need to energize the rest of the sane population.
I cannot imagine that all the information would not appear in the trials And the rebuttals to the lies would be presented along with, as as part of, the information
Robert Hubbell put out in his newsletter yesterday that the public hearings will reach millions while very few would read the written report. He made a comparison to the televised Watergate hearings. The one glitch I see here is where they will be broadcast. For Watergate we had few channels; CBS, ABC, NBC. There was no massive cable network that the people would have to turn specifically to. The country was almost forced to view what was happening. The Fox propaganda machine won’t show these hearings. We’ll have to tune in to c-span and it’s an active choice.
Yes public TRIALS INFORMATION comes out in PUBLIC TRIALS not only in congressional hearings Think of the Nuremberg TRIALS Did they first have to have some legislative body delve and delve and delve . No. they had the trials and the information emerged and the punishments were decided
Exactly. And I don't understand how the "Green Bay Sweep" is in any way evidence of exonerating "Trump and Bannon and throw(ing) responsibility for the violence to others, notably Stone." It smacks of a conspiracy involving ALL of them, including the 100 they were recruiting to play along with their plan. Whether or not there was a "peaceful" plan or a "violent" plan to overturn the election, it was a PLAN to OVERTURN the election.
"WTF more is it going to take..." I'm so with you, its like the Jan 6th gang are throwing pebbles against AR-15ers. What is taking so long, its right in front of our eyes. Arrest them, lock them up and seek justice, our country is slipping away. And Garland, another disappointment. MOVE. NOW.
Kathy, I'm with you. I'm not buying the "justice takes a long time" bullshit anymore.
Especially when all they are trying to do is run out the clock. 45 has done this his whole life, what part of his M.O. are they not getting?! Strategize they way he has his whole life. I fear for our country, its no longer a joke, we are in a dire situation of losing it. But lets all hang in there Linda, I'm also an optimist, without being a Pollyanna. Smile and cheers to 2022!
Hear Hear
Patience, Grasshopper.
Distancing themselves from violence is the key to staying out of jail. 18USC 2384 reads:
"If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both."
Notice that in virtually every clause "by force" is an integral element of the offense. It is not clear what Federal law would otherwise have been violated by encouraging various political actors and officeholders to question the election results. We also need to keep in mind that the Constitution--while democratically aspirational in places--was constructed ins significant part to create barriers to "mob rule" . One of these--even after amendments- is the electoral college and its mechanics.
Seeing how our laws might be changed to protect democratic voting mechanisms is one of the strongest LEGISLATIVE reasons underpinning the Jan 6 Commission''s work.
It will never happen. 2024 is going to be a challenge like no other.
for your lips, Elaine...
Apparently, nothing will get them jailed. NOTHING.