Yesterday I openly wondered if it was formally illegal to incite insurrection against the US Government.
Well, to my surprise, and, thanks to Ally House yesterday for posting the below section of the 14th Amendment, and, another poster I cannot remember or find after looking through the posts yesterday, there are two laws against insur…
Yesterday I openly wondered if it was formally illegal to incite insurrection against the US Government.
Well, to my surprise, and, thanks to Ally House yesterday for posting the below section of the 14th Amendment, and, another poster I cannot remember or find after looking through the posts yesterday, there are two laws against insurrection:
Section 3 of the the14th Amendment:
"No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."
18 US Code 2383
"Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States. "
So, I figure it might be difficult to get Trump's rather massive posterior into a local patrol car down near Mara Lago and, indeed, the cops might have to bring in the Paddy Wagon to get his rather large posterior to the county jail ..... but.....
I now am optimistic that we will get to see Trump sitting in the County Jail getting prepped for Federal prison fairly soon.
I"d take that Mike, but in all honestly, first thing I do every morning after I take the bp meds and feed the cats is look on msn.com praying there will be a screaming headline that tfg is dead.
It is worth following Teri Kanefield's writings. She's a constitutional lawyer and explains the *slow* legal workings of all this quite well. Most importantly, she cautions that merely criminally convicting people does not solve the problem of authoritarianism. Those aligned with authoritarian thought will always be around.
A few photographs of Trump behind bars in a striped pantsuit and his martyrdom will be somewhat tainted. Nothing takes the shine off of a person like prison clothes.
I hope they put him in the “general population” - you know the one - the one Jeffrey Dahmer was in. You kill two birds with one stone; you get to see him in prison and he dies, to boot.
I say there have been more than enough of 'ifs, 'when's' and 'buts'. It is long past time for the FBI and DOJ to begin criminal investigations of the insurrection's/coup's planners. You're suggesting, Pat, another reason to give the destroyer's more time to finish us off.
the cops in Palm Beach Fla coddled a known child molester ( Epstein), giving him unlimited freedoms, they are HUUUUGE Trump fans...they will do nothing.
There was one cop in Florida who found three girls who had been abused by Epstein, then, gathered evidence backing up there story, and eventually arrested Epstein in July of 2006.
Sadly, the Bush administrations justice department worked a deal with someone in Florida to let him go. The cop that arrested Epstein was named Michael Reiter.
So, there are a some folks down in Florida, like there are everywhere who, even when presented with the payoff, will turn it down and "do the right thing".
I think a huge dilemma is how to jail a past president. You can't put him in with other prisoners. Do you buy private property, build a huge fence around it, and make a home for him and a couple of apartments for secret service? Not something we have had to think about before.
When pigs fly. That would incite a bloody guerrila civil war on the streets of the resulting disUnited States of America. A comfortable exile for the former president and his immediate family is a logical alternative, leaving his remaining supporters to face justice. But remember, Napoleon escaped from Elba and tried to regain power.
This problem extends beyond Palm Beach. Too many in law enforcement don't understand that their mission, to protect the public and maintain civil order, must take precedence over their personal politics. Give someone a law enforcement job which entitles them to wear an American Flag on their shirt sleeve, and this includes related jobs such as corrections personnel, and they identify themselves as personal protectors of that flag, letting their politics influence them. Look at all the flag wavers on January 6 at the Capitol.
we have no further to look than the shooter at the church in SC when the police arrested him and stopped to get him something to eat and drink to know that this issue does not just live in FL. It lives in Wisconsin, it lives in OH, it lives in every state of the Union.
When that scummer Rush Limbaugh was arrested for illicit drug use the Palm Beach Police fawned around him as a celeb and champion of their white supremest beliefs.
I have been wondering ever since Jan 7, 2021 why Nancy Pelosi even agreed to seat the 147 members who were in open defiance.....maybe she was waiting for the hard chips to fall so there could be no wiggle room about their guilt.
Here is the part of the amendment you neglected to include, Mike, It is the loophole that turns the entire removal process into a potential joke:
"But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability."
Meaning Congress can overturn the disability (exclusion) from holding office again.
Explanation: "The right to remove disabilities imposed by this section was exercised by Congress at different times on behalf of enumerated individuals.1 In 1872, the disabilities were removed, by a blanket act, from all persons except Senators and Representatives of the Thirty-sixth and Thirty-seventh Congresses, officers in the judicial, military and naval service of the United States, heads of departments, and foreign ministers of the United States.2 Twenty-six years later, Congress enacted that the disability imposed by section 3 . . . incurred heretofore, is hereby removed."
"Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States. "
Daria, first, Trump is not disabled so there are no disabilities to remove. :-) :-)
Second, code 2383 is unambiguous.
So, hopefully whatever lawyer is the prosecution, knows enough to dance well.
We've actually had several discussions around Section 3 of the 14th. There are a couple of loopholes within the amendment itself, most notably one that allows the guilty party to serve again. Congress has a bad habit of taking care of Congress and not the (US) American People.
Here it is:
Fourteenth Amendment, Section 3:
"No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability."
Explanation: "The right to remove disabilities imposed by this section was exercised by Congress at different times on behalf of enumerated individuals.1 In 1872, the disabilities were removed, by a blanket act, from all persons except Senators and Representatives of the Thirty-sixth and Thirty-seventh Congresses, officers in the judicial, military and naval service of the United States, heads of departments, and foreign ministers of the United States.2 Twenty-six years later, Congress enacted that the disability imposed by section 3 . . . incurred heretofore, is hereby removed."
18 US Code 2383 bars him from holding office again.
"Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States. "
Optimism is warranted where getting to see his mug shot after being booked are relevant.
daria, I would note, aside from the necessity that one branch serves as a check on the other, a 2/3s-vote threshold from each House is a mighty high bar and nearly impossible to reach, particularly at this time when government is so polarized.
I agree. My point is that there is, in fact, a built in loophole that can be used in the event there is a sufficient number if votes to reinstate ones eligibility to hold office. It may be entirely "academic" but it does exist.
daria, I suppose my profound admiration for our admittedly flawed Founders, who, nonetheless, understood the need for constant checks against the anticipated excesses of any one branch precludes me from viewing one such check as a “loophole.” I hope my pressing concern over this point is not viewed as irritating, but, instead, as a tribute to those who sought to balance power in a way that might protect the country from the corrupt self-serving impulses of any one faction.
Barbara, I too have deep regard for our founders. It is important to understand, however, that the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was ratified in 1868. It was not crafted by the founders but was "One of three amendments passed during the Reconstruction era to abolish slavery and establish civil and legal rights for Black Americans".
I don't find your concern irritating, however, I think it is important to understand when and why the 13th and 14th Amendments were drafted and ratified. Again, the Founders had nothing to do with these amendments. These amendments have to do with the abolishing slavery and establishing equality for Black Americans . The removal of Disability by a 2/3 vote in both Chambers is, in an unbalanced Congress, very dangerous.
I hope you don't find my insistence around the specifics of these amendments irritating or insulting. I know I can seem pedantic.
Section 3 explained:
"Section Three of the amendment, gave Congress the authority to bar public officials, who took an oath of allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, from holding office if they "engaged in insurrection or rebellion" against the Constitution. The intent was to prevent the president from allowing former leaders of the Confederacy to regain power within the U.S. government after securing a presidential pardon.
Removal of Disability in section 3 explained:
" It states that a two-thirds majority vote in Congress is required to allow public officials who had engaged in rebellion to regain the rights of American citizenship and hold government or military office."
daria, My understanding, when the 14th Amendment was drafted, was that its crafters were adhering to the section of the Constitution that had established the few exceptions that would require a supermajority as opposed to a simple up or down majority vote. Among those exceptions was the conviction/removal of an impeached officer. Btw, I have valued every one of your postings, not just here, but everywhere else.
Yesterday I openly wondered if it was formally illegal to incite insurrection against the US Government.
Well, to my surprise, and, thanks to Ally House yesterday for posting the below section of the 14th Amendment, and, another poster I cannot remember or find after looking through the posts yesterday, there are two laws against insurrection:
Section 3 of the the14th Amendment:
"No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."
18 US Code 2383
"Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States. "
So, I figure it might be difficult to get Trump's rather massive posterior into a local patrol car down near Mara Lago and, indeed, the cops might have to bring in the Paddy Wagon to get his rather large posterior to the county jail ..... but.....
I now am optimistic that we will get to see Trump sitting in the County Jail getting prepped for Federal prison fairly soon.
I, for one, cannot wait.
If the DOJ can’t hold him and the Jim Jordan’s in Congress accountable, our justice system is truly broken.
I think Trump is headed to jail. I really do.
I"d take that Mike, but in all honestly, first thing I do every morning after I take the bp meds and feed the cats is look on msn.com praying there will be a screaming headline that tfg is dead.
Shamefully, I do the same...or McConnell, Graham, Jordan, etc.
'or', perhaps, and? It is very difficult to agree to leniency for the enemies of us all.
Miselle, well, that would make a boring end to this movie now would it not?
Let's put him in Federal Prison instead.
Boring, Mike? How shall we spell J U S T I C E?
Liz, for now, lets just imagine Trump in stripes behind bars eating a nice, smelly plate of prison food.
Like all the folks in jail because they listened to him on Jan 06
Nope. That’s when we all find out he has Alzheimer’s .
:-)
Trump never could remember anything. He has never been able to focus well since he was hit in the temple with a pitched baseball in middle school.
He cannot read.
You’re an optimist but I’ll certainly join you.
Imagining a crook like Trump in jail is good for the soul.
I do hope you are right, Mike!
Well, independent of right and wrong, it is a wonderful Christmas image to imagine Trump behind bars after all these years of hurting so many people.
It is worth following Teri Kanefield's writings. She's a constitutional lawyer and explains the *slow* legal workings of all this quite well. Most importantly, she cautions that merely criminally convicting people does not solve the problem of authoritarianism. Those aligned with authoritarian thought will always be around.
Aye, I guess that's right, but, having Trump in jail to laugh at? Priceless.
Thanks for the tip on Kanefield. Sounds like interesting stuff.
I would like to see this, as well.
But, then, the movement would have a martyr.
But, then, if he's not jailed, justice will not be done.
But, if justice is done, the movement would have a martyr.
This is something we computer programmers call an infinite loop.
Martyr Shmartyr … put his ass in jail.
I second this motion!!
😂😂😂
A few photographs of Trump behind bars in a striped pantsuit and his martyrdom will be somewhat tainted. Nothing takes the shine off of a person like prison clothes.
I hope they put him in the “general population” - you know the one - the one Jeffrey Dahmer was in. You kill two birds with one stone; you get to see him in prison and he dies, to boot.
Thank you Cara, brilliant idea. Opening this up:
Pretend you are the warden choosing his assigned cellmate. Any suggestions?
The son of Quesem Soleimani?
You're singing our nightmare to a T----!
:-)
sadly it does not, my home state of OH re-elected Jim Traficant as rep even though he was convicted and in jail.
Well, sometimes the bad boy becomes popular, true.
That, in fact, is a serious weakness of Democracy.
Everyone gets to vote.
I see a theme in your comments this morning, Mike S. 😀
You have warmed to your task.
Not a loop.
A simple if…else…end if.
And I’ll take the “if justice is done…” for $1000, Alex.
.....end if.
I love it.
The Daily Double‼️
I think there is an off.
??
huh
I say there have been more than enough of 'ifs, 'when's' and 'buts'. It is long past time for the FBI and DOJ to begin criminal investigations of the insurrection's/coup's planners. You're suggesting, Pat, another reason to give the destroyer's more time to finish us off.
That's not at all what I'm saying!
Does 45 belong in jail? YES, like 5 years ago!!!
BUT we have to realize that putting him there will energize his base. We need to be prepared for that.
Well looped!
the cops in Palm Beach Fla coddled a known child molester ( Epstein), giving him unlimited freedoms, they are HUUUUGE Trump fans...they will do nothing.
Mr. Paschal,
There was one cop in Florida who found three girls who had been abused by Epstein, then, gathered evidence backing up there story, and eventually arrested Epstein in July of 2006.
Sadly, the Bush administrations justice department worked a deal with someone in Florida to let him go. The cop that arrested Epstein was named Michael Reiter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Reiter_(police_officer)
So, there are a some folks down in Florida, like there are everywhere who, even when presented with the payoff, will turn it down and "do the right thing".
I am now very optimistic Trump is going to jail.
I think a huge dilemma is how to jail a past president. You can't put him in with other prisoners. Do you buy private property, build a huge fence around it, and make a home for him and a couple of apartments for secret service? Not something we have had to think about before.
It could be done on the beach at Guantanamo.
Sure you can put him in with the other prisoners. Trump is nothing special.
That was going to be my point. HE tarnished the Presidency. His prison arrangements should above all return him to citizen status.
I think prison inmates don't have hired protection.
They are all on their own.
So it should be with Donald J. Trump.
Let's see how it turns out for our illustrious President.
Yeah but Presidents get Secret Service protection for life. Last I heard.
That's my point for my comment. What do we do about that?
They used to exile them to Scotland, I believe. :-)
Oh, wait. That's English Kings.....
Please read my comment above.
When pigs fly. That would incite a bloody guerrila civil war on the streets of the resulting disUnited States of America. A comfortable exile for the former president and his immediate family is a logical alternative, leaving his remaining supporters to face justice. But remember, Napoleon escaped from Elba and tried to regain power.
Naw.
If social media management is done properly a picture of a somewhat mussed up Trump in prison garb will be on every screen.
it is amazing how fast the shine can come off of someone when they are no longer in a suit.
No.
Justice cannot (or at least should not) be swayed by threats of civil disorder. The criming came first.
What price justice? Chemo can cure cancer but enough of it can kill the patient.
Finally I have been waiting to see pigs “actually” fly.
This problem extends beyond Palm Beach. Too many in law enforcement don't understand that their mission, to protect the public and maintain civil order, must take precedence over their personal politics. Give someone a law enforcement job which entitles them to wear an American Flag on their shirt sleeve, and this includes related jobs such as corrections personnel, and they identify themselves as personal protectors of that flag, letting their politics influence them. Look at all the flag wavers on January 6 at the Capitol.
we have no further to look than the shooter at the church in SC when the police arrested him and stopped to get him something to eat and drink to know that this issue does not just live in FL. It lives in Wisconsin, it lives in OH, it lives in every state of the Union.
I did not know this had occurred.
When that scummer Rush Limbaugh was arrested for illicit drug use the Palm Beach Police fawned around him as a celeb and champion of their white supremest beliefs.
So, yeah that too.
I have been wondering ever since Jan 7, 2021 why Nancy Pelosi even agreed to seat the 147 members who were in open defiance.....maybe she was waiting for the hard chips to fall so there could be no wiggle room about their guilt.
If only. Also many of the FOX “opinion” folks might be able to report from federal prison also.
Robin,
GREAT IDEA. No lie.
Tucker Carlson interviews Trump through a prison window and a lousy prison microphone! Asks him how he likes his new stripes!
But, then again, Trump might be in solitary confinement for his protection.
:-)
I sense a prison fixation in you, Mike. You are spurring the fantasies of subscribers, who long held such hopes, wishes and dreams.
Here is the part of the amendment you neglected to include, Mike, It is the loophole that turns the entire removal process into a potential joke:
"But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability."
Meaning Congress can overturn the disability (exclusion) from holding office again.
Explanation: "The right to remove disabilities imposed by this section was exercised by Congress at different times on behalf of enumerated individuals.1 In 1872, the disabilities were removed, by a blanket act, from all persons except Senators and Representatives of the Thirty-sixth and Thirty-seventh Congresses, officers in the judicial, military and naval service of the United States, heads of departments, and foreign ministers of the United States.2 Twenty-six years later, Congress enacted that the disability imposed by section 3 . . . incurred heretofore, is hereby removed."
https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt14-S3-1-1/ALDE_00000848/
18 US Code 2383
"Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States. "
Daria, first, Trump is not disabled so there are no disabilities to remove. :-) :-)
Second, code 2383 is unambiguous.
So, hopefully whatever lawyer is the prosecution, knows enough to dance well.
Great debate going on.
:(
Mike I do LOVE this post of yours. ❤️❤️
Thanks Roland. I was not actually thinking it would make folks happy, but, I am happy it did.
Of course, not a happy subject. But it does make the heart and spirit glad to consider that justice could be served.
Indeed. Brightens my day no end to visualize Trump in stripes behind bars.
We've actually had several discussions around Section 3 of the 14th. There are a couple of loopholes within the amendment itself, most notably one that allows the guilty party to serve again. Congress has a bad habit of taking care of Congress and not the (US) American People.
Here it is:
Fourteenth Amendment, Section 3:
"No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability."
Explanation: "The right to remove disabilities imposed by this section was exercised by Congress at different times on behalf of enumerated individuals.1 In 1872, the disabilities were removed, by a blanket act, from all persons except Senators and Representatives of the Thirty-sixth and Thirty-seventh Congresses, officers in the judicial, military and naval service of the United States, heads of departments, and foreign ministers of the United States.2 Twenty-six years later, Congress enacted that the disability imposed by section 3 . . . incurred heretofore, is hereby removed."
https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt14-S3-1-1/ALDE_00000848/
Daria,
18 US Code 2383 bars him from holding office again.
"Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States. "
Optimism is warranted where getting to see his mug shot after being booked are relevant.
:-)
daria, I would note, aside from the necessity that one branch serves as a check on the other, a 2/3s-vote threshold from each House is a mighty high bar and nearly impossible to reach, particularly at this time when government is so polarized.
I agree. My point is that there is, in fact, a built in loophole that can be used in the event there is a sufficient number if votes to reinstate ones eligibility to hold office. It may be entirely "academic" but it does exist.
daria, I suppose my profound admiration for our admittedly flawed Founders, who, nonetheless, understood the need for constant checks against the anticipated excesses of any one branch precludes me from viewing one such check as a “loophole.” I hope my pressing concern over this point is not viewed as irritating, but, instead, as a tribute to those who sought to balance power in a way that might protect the country from the corrupt self-serving impulses of any one faction.
Barbara, I too have deep regard for our founders. It is important to understand, however, that the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was ratified in 1868. It was not crafted by the founders but was "One of three amendments passed during the Reconstruction era to abolish slavery and establish civil and legal rights for Black Americans".
I don't find your concern irritating, however, I think it is important to understand when and why the 13th and 14th Amendments were drafted and ratified. Again, the Founders had nothing to do with these amendments. These amendments have to do with the abolishing slavery and establishing equality for Black Americans . The removal of Disability by a 2/3 vote in both Chambers is, in an unbalanced Congress, very dangerous.
I hope you don't find my insistence around the specifics of these amendments irritating or insulting. I know I can seem pedantic.
Section 3 explained:
"Section Three of the amendment, gave Congress the authority to bar public officials, who took an oath of allegiance to the U.S. Constitution, from holding office if they "engaged in insurrection or rebellion" against the Constitution. The intent was to prevent the president from allowing former leaders of the Confederacy to regain power within the U.S. government after securing a presidential pardon.
Removal of Disability in section 3 explained:
" It states that a two-thirds majority vote in Congress is required to allow public officials who had engaged in rebellion to regain the rights of American citizenship and hold government or military office."
https://www.history.com/topics/black-history/thirteenth-amendment
https://www.history.com/topics/black-history/fourteenth-amendment#section_6
daria, My understanding, when the 14th Amendment was drafted, was that its crafters were adhering to the section of the Constitution that had established the few exceptions that would require a supermajority as opposed to a simple up or down majority vote. Among those exceptions was the conviction/removal of an impeached officer. Btw, I have valued every one of your postings, not just here, but everywhere else.