On a completely different note, Georgia's "Fetal Heartbeat" law went into effect this week, officially known by the rather tortured name, the "Living Infants Fairness and Equality (LIFE) Act." (Ga House Bill 481). On it's surface, it does several remarkable things, like according legal rights to a "person" as soon as a fetal heartbeat…
On a completely different note, Georgia's "Fetal Heartbeat" law went into effect this week, officially known by the rather tortured name, the "Living Infants Fairness and Equality (LIFE) Act." (Ga House Bill 481). On it's surface, it does several remarkable things, like according legal rights to a "person" as soon as a fetal heartbeat is detectable, usually around 6 weeks pregnancy, and makes it illegal to abort that fetus without a strong showing of evidence that the mother's life would be ended or majorly destroyed if the pregnancy were allowed to continue. (Mental health issues are excluded.)
Interestingly, the law specifically permits the unborn child to be used as a tax deduction, beginning with that heartbeat detection. There is no requirement that the pregnancy result in a live birth.
Hmm.
This means that a pregnant wealthy person in Georgia can simply get an ultrasound demonstrating a fetal heartbeat, fly to a more enlightened state for an abortion, then file for a tax deduction. The deduction would defray the cost of travel and, for even higher income brackets, may even pay for the procedure and result in a profit.
In other words, it's a perfect example of a Republican bill -- it gives tax money to rich people and reeks of hypocrisy! What's not to love? I'd love to hear what folks on this board think of this.
Any references to these laws' language of "detectable heartbeat" need to be called out to educate readers that the ultrasound is detecting not the beat of a functioning heart, but electrical impulses of not yet differentiated cells.
Furthermore, this developing group of cells is called an embryo, and in the 8th week of pregnancy, is called a fetus until birth.
Thanks Ellie for making this clear. These radical reactionaries pretend there is a heartbeat when there is no heart. They pretend that their sectarian religious/political beliefs about the timing of the beginning of life are objective science. They pretend an embryo is an infant. And then they have no interest in the living conditions of actual, living, breathing infants.
No, they don't. This is only a vote getting maneuver and then no votes for helping out the born human beings. And they wonder why many people find their "Christianity" so repulsive. I am still trying to find a reference to abortion in the NT. Ha...computer wanted to make this the NYT.
It seems your well-meaning description of who "...they..." are might be miss placed...
These republicans ARE NOT Christians
"they" do not possess a Holy Bible
but "they" are, themselves, possessed by the Great Deceiver
Christians are about Love
Love of all GOD's creations, even their enemy's, which is not always very easy to do...which one reason Christians pray for everyone to become the love of CHRIST to everyone.
I think you misread me. I have Christianity in quotes because the people I am talking about claim to be Christians, but they have not a whit of idea of what Christ taught. They are about hate, not love. This Sunday the River Church is bringing its hatred once again to Riverside Park here in Salem. They will be spewing their hatred all over downtown Salem. So I think we agree they are hypocrites. I do know some people who do understand and their faith provides a structure for their social views.
Thanks , Ellie, for this well-known biological, but little understood and/or accepted by right-wing politicians, fact. The gaping hole in US education and respect for it has widened into a bottomless pit.
The "gaping hole in US education" is not just happenstance, but direct targeting by reactionary Republicans taking from the playbook of autocracy. It's what Hitler and Putin have done.
Sadly, medicine has nothing to do with it. The whole point here is to grind women into subservience. Women dying due to men’s superior power is not a bug in this system. It’s a central feature.
How anti-American can you get? You paint all Americans as the same. Many Americans know that they have been robbed by a system that favors the rich and we are trying to change that. Most Americans did not fall for 'voodoo' economics' and all white men are not the same, just as all Hispanic men, all Asian men, etc., aren't the same. Your slogan has been 'the problem with America is the Americans'. We are very divided and much of the deepening of that and the growth of hatred has been fueled by self-seeking autocrats. White supremacy has been a serious problem in America for centuries and not here alone. Scapegoating is a common form of manipulation/propaganda. There is a wealth of world history along these lines. It is a old story. We have a great deal to do in this country on many levels. 'The problem with America is the Americans' is to smear us all.
fHi, Fern and Mike, I'm going to jump in with a slightly different "read" of Mike's comment. I read his long comment not at all as anti-American, exactly the opposite. Maybe because it's my particular hobby horse. I read it as a challenge to his fellow Americans to examine our own part in the horror show that is our reality. I always end up referring to the 1971 Pogo cartoon, "We have met the enemy and he is us." I could be wrong, but my reaction to Mike's comment was a kind of, "YES!!" If Mike doesn't really mean all Americans--which it obviously can't be just realistically and literally--then I guess maybe my way of reading his comment is as a call to arms in the difficult work of digging out the darkness, not in each and every one of us necessarily but in the culture that we've all had a hand in creating even by doing nothing.
And I'm going to stop before I offend both of you. This exchange between you is important exactly to the extent that it makes us think. Thank you both
Thanks for your response. Your response is much more intelligent and intelligible than my writing, no doubt.
It is true that I don't mean all Americans, however, there are more than enough Americans in the "enemy of Democracy" camp, and, have always been enough Americans in that camp, to prevent equal opportunity for all in work, voting, education, housing, land ownership, and a host of things I don't want to write.
I am an interesting product of America: Mexican Dad, White Anglo Mom (Red Head). They met, fell in love and married in 1959 when, in Texas, that was not acceptable.
They raised me unbiased against all people and showed kindness to all people themselves.
Since I am light skinned, I WAS accorded some opportunity in America, and was hired after engineering school. But, I went seven years without a raise in that job and, I felt, my work was often better than others.
Eventually, I concluded that the only people ever promoted were tall white guys, often as dumb as a stump, and I resigned.
Further, in my 38 year career as an engineer, I saw hundreds of poorly qualified whites get jobs, and, only THREE black engineers. ALL THREE suffered from comments of "affirmative action" even though they were much more highly qualified than most whites hired.
Also, MANY whites were hired by their parents because their grades were not good enough to be competitive. It was this observation that led me to conclude that affirmative action in America is reallyf or white men.
It is unfortunate that "affirmative action", mostly applied to white men, has been associated with the very few blacks that are hired, all of whom are highly qualified since there are NO parents working to hire them.
At any rate, my experiences in America are VERY different than the majority of those on this reflector with Dr. Richardson.
My comments reflect that and have angered folks.
Hence, I have resigned participation in the board. It was wasting too much time anyway.
Again, thanks for your more positive reading of my comments.
Mike, I'm going to argue with your statement that my writing is more intelligent and intelligible. Wow. You've said it exactly like it needs to be said--and needs to be said on every street corner in this country. Your story makes several things clear, starting with the fact that this isn't a Donald Trump problem so much as it is an America problem. We seem to be especially good at finding scapegoats and Trump is a master at doing that in the crudest and most blatant ways. He's about as awful as can be but the real monsters are the thinkers and planners and bankrollers of the status quo. As you say, "affirmative action in America is really for white men." I read something recently that got my attention--that the system in America isn't "broken." It's working exactly as it was designed to work.
I try to scroll by your comments as quickly as possible as they appear to comprise a repetitive dumping ground to me. The few times that I stop to make a factual correction or share a perspective, you always respond with the same rational. I only hear one note. If you think focusing on a group and making an ugly generalization about the whole county based on that group states the 'truth' when it is prejudicial -- it's very easy for some to criticize others for lacking critical thinking.
Thank you for responding, Mike S. Your comments have reflected what you think of the country and the American people. It is good that you are comfortable here and share your ideas. Many subscribers like what you have to say. I remember how we befriended each other when you began on the forum. This communication between us has been awkward, but I am leaving it with better understanding and warm regards for you. Salud.
Excellent point, Fern... thank you for pointing this out. Reducing us all to a unified group (grossly inaccurate!) under one label doesn't serve us. Certainly doesn't help us figure out viable solutions to our mess.
Thank you, Suz. I have waited months before responding to Mike S. with what I have thought about for quite awhile. Many have suffered greatly and continue to in this country. This may be the safe ground for some of us to unload long held grievances. All of us have been going through tough times in various ways. It felt as though it was time to address Mike S. directly about his generalizations and negativity. Unfortunately, we seem unable to find a bridge.
I have, yet again, waded through the coagulated muck of your cleverly snarky self-righteousness of your smug generalizations and self-proclaimed negativities, (in which you indeed revel in), in describing your judgments about others...
Who made you the judge, jury, and executioner herein, huh?
So, you have been sneaking around hiding in the weedy murky swamp of your pitiful jealousy just waiting for what you have determined is the best moment in time to pounce upon Mike, have you, Eh!?
In re to blanket statements that Americans lap up "voodoo economics'" et al. This American and others never fell for such faulty B.S. As stated in various posts, there are too many people either unwilling (lazy, incapable of seeing past their noses) or educationally unable (lacking critical thinking skills) to research behind such faulty statements/reasoning.
If Democrats actually expect to defeat even just one republican candidate, or incumbent, or republican sponsored legislation this November…
THEN
All Democrats
MUST
Begin to
FIGHT FIRE WITH EVEN BRIGHTER BURNING FIRE!!!
Here is a FACT to consider in direct refutation of republican lies:
Joe Trippi is a well-known benevolent Democrat strategist who has a wonderful podcast one of which is cited below. Here Trippi highlights the fact that when the enough concerned registered American voters vote for Democrats:
Then:
(1). All Americans will have their freedom of reproductive choice,
(2). All Americans will have their freedom to vote,
(3). All Americans will have their freedom to marry whom they want, and many other freedoms as well…
(4). Plus, all Americans will have inflation.
However!
If enough Americans are again fooled by republican lies, (as a lot have been in the past), into voting for republicans, then:
(1). All American people will have none of their freedoms, (Nos. 1-3), previously guaranteed by the Democrats’ defense of the American Constitution while maintaining their control of Congress.
AND
All Americans will still have the inflation exacerbated by the anti-democratic republican blockage of Democratic proposed relief legislation…
It tries. "[A]n unborn child, at any stage of development...shall be included in state population based determinations." (Lines 131-133) That probably wouldn't affect federal census, but would afffect anything the state government controls.
But they really don't know what it does. For instance, it should have an impact on child support determinations, in that a pregnant woman would be able to seek child support regardless of whether the pregnancy results in a live birth.
This is coming out on almost the same day that the Atlanta Music Midtown Festival, a long time public festival that showcased talent of all genres, was cancelled because, being held in a public park, the promoters learned that they would be unable to exclude firearms from the audience. Since no sane entertainer would be willing to stand on a stage under a spotlight in front of a crowd of armed Republicans, they had to cancel the whole thing.
I'm waiting until Georgia decides all embryos and fetuses would cast a vote for their lives, thus their votes will count in a referendum opposing abortion.
I hope Stacy Abrams really goes into all this! That is incredible! Of course, this seems to be aimed particularly at wealthy women as I'm sad to say poorer women wouldn't benefit as much from the tax credit, or the ability to travel outside of the state. And probably wouldn't know about the census as politicians are so good at hiding some things from those who could really benefit.
The child support issues is going to be interesting to say the least...
Counted no doubt, as more than 5/8 of an adult voter for our Proprietors' purposes. Nevertheless, since said Proprietors' compassion seems to be reserved for their own successful spermatozoa, their overriding concern will remain unchanged: that neither the unborn, the children nor those who make it to adulthood should ever be entitled to a meaningful vote.
The scams go on! It is breathtaking (and heartbreaking) that a law like this can even be considered. On so many levels, it is wrong, wrong, wrong. The fact that mental health issues are excluded is so completely revolting, I don’t even know what to say. Forget about the right to choose, the tax grift of this law is beyond everything I have seen. Thanks for educating us. Now, I need to go fix a stiff drink……
Yeh.. me too. When our imaginations result in science, adults will consider it as such. When imaginations dissolve into creationism, the adult factor goes away in favor the the book with no author. It's too late.. I'll just have some yogurt.
The "Living Infants Fairness and Equality (LIFE) Act." Will English language, law and medical dictionaries need to add a new entry to acknowledge Georgia’s newly contorted definition of “infant”? And if they do, what will be the implications to the term “fetus”?
A fetus is not viable person. Also, many women, and GIRLS, do not know they are even pregnant until they have missed a few periods, which for some can be so sporadic, they cannot chart them or do not even understand the normal 28 day cycle because they are too young. So, it is unfair to make laws based upon such cruelty to females. MEN are the ones who need to be challenged and responsible for every fricking, "sacred" sperm they produce. Or be responsible and start shooting blanks. Get the metaphor for guns, here? Hear?
We crossed the CT River today into New Hampshire to kayak and explore one of their many pristine lakes. What we heard, instead of the loons, was practicing shooting rapid fire guns that echoed all around the lake. It is incredibly disturbing and the birds looked distressed. It went on for at least 45 mins. and made looking for loons and beavers completely marred by "Live Free or Die" on what otherwise would have been a lovely, relaxing Sunday. Why is one person's rights allowed to disturb many other people's, animals and the sanctity of nature's rights in the middle of summer? I understand a few target practices, but the amount of ammunition used up was ridiculous besides traumatizing living in a world full of massacres.
The ME people. Is there a Noise Ordinance? Would a cop want to even endanger him or herself to enforce it?
Am hoping we can evolve to a point where those of us who want a peaceful world can ascend to some parallel universe and leave the others in their alt reality of let's power over everything and kill it. Then we can have safe music festivals, theaters, markets, attend churches or synagogues of our choice, go to school walk, and walk down the street freely, and without fear. And paddle on a beautiful lake without being reminded of self-absorbed supremacist politics, dark power, dark money and assault weapons. Loonier than real loons.
That is SO disturbing… I also want to express my outrage this week from an ad I got via email to buy assault rifles ….. it featured many different styles of weapons and had all kinds of patriotic marketing gimmicks. I was so outraged about it and to unsubscribe you had to put in all of your personal info and send them a response!!!! How in the heck could I have gotten on a mailing list like that? So disturbing and shows just how easy these guns are to obtain! 🤯
Check your privacy settings on your phone, tablet, computer, Facebook, Twitter, etc. If you have Alexa or Siri, check those also. Then report unwanted emails as spam.
I have started popping trash like this back in the mailbox with a "return to sender" message. I have no idea where it ends up but am hopeful the "sender" gets the message.
I sometimes look up organizations to find out about their bias. Then I get all sorts of religious crap, gun ads, and R ads. At least I think that's what happened.
I’ve not experienced that same thing butHAVE noted more and more marketing intrusions online following personal discussions of products or issues with friends. These discussions are either in real time and space or over the cell phone. Very creepy. Many friends have noticed as well. A friend in France has the same experience.very Big Brother. I first noticed this several years ago after a NYC subway ride discussing a pair of shoes a fellow passenger was wearing. When I surfaced out of the subway there was an e-mail( at that time more frequent) announcing a special sale for those shoes! Fit Flops. Since then( at least 8 years ago), these” coincidences have become MUch More frequent.
I have been in discussion as well with someone about a particular topic only to have it appear in my email. Yes. Big Brother and the algorithms are watching And Listening. Creepy.
Oh, gawd. That IS so disturbing. Gunmakers are responsible for this-- and we need to put huge pressure on them. These are weapons of mass destruction...not self-protection or hunting guns. They need loud voices screaming at them and to pay for every massacre that occurs in our country.
Meanwhile, I've just read the renter's manual at my humble apartment building which forbids smoking, candles, carts and wheelchairs left outside our apartments, etc.— all for the purpose of health and safety as our aging minds wander and are no longer so careful. BUT legally there can be no prohibition on gun possession because of law. Now there's a worry I wasn't counting on as I age.
You also raise an interesting point about the fluidity of state borders, like kayaking across an invisible state line and fascist Republicans trying to prevent pregnant women from leaving their state.
Does anyone know if that woman in Texas won her case, that her 8-month fetus should count as a passenger and allow her to use the multi-passenger highway lane?
"The new bill, introduced on July 13 in both the Senate and House, is called the Unborn Child Support Act, and would amend the Social Security Act 'to give mothers the ability to receive child support payments while they are pregnant...' The bill would work by amending the Social Security Act, which requires states to manage a public child support system that oversees issues such as determining paternity and collecting child support.
Under the proposal, a court could award child support payments prior to birth and retroactively to the point of conception, as determined by a doctor, according to the statement. It also wouldn't require women to ask for child support if they don't want the prospective father's involvement. Paternity tests would be up to the prospective mother, according to the statement.
The bill is co-sponsored by a number of Republican lawmakers, including Senators Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee and Marco Rubio of Florida."
But of course, also no joke: West Virginia Republican who introduced a bill to get rid of child support so men won't pressure women into getting an abortion:
"But of course, also no joke: West Virginia Republican who introduced a bill to get rid of child support so men won't pressure women into getting an abortion:"
Or murder her. It's no coincidence that men have murdered wives, girlfriends, and children more frequently since the advent of DNA testing for paternity. (I think it began in the Clinton administration as an accommodation to cutting back on welfare for women and children.)
As these GOPholks keep telling us (when wearing their Guncultists' persona with its armored 10 gallon hat and deaths-head rictus mask) there is a Big Mental Health Crisis in America...
Just in case you missed my message located somewhere else in the plethora of all other comments....
If Democrats actually expect to defeat even just one republican candidate, or incumbent, or republican sponsored legislation this November…
THEN
All Democrats
MUST
Begin to
FIGHT FIRE WITH EVEN BRIGHTER BURNING FIRE!!!
Here is a FACT to consider in direct refutation of republican lies:
Joe Trippi is a well-known benevolent Democrat strategist who has a wonderful podcast one of which is cited below. Here Trippi highlights the fact that when the enough concerned registered American voters vote for Democrats:
Then:
(1). All Americans will have their freedom of reproductive choice,
(2). All Americans will have their freedom to vote,
(3). All Americans will have their freedom to marry whom they want, and many other freedoms as well…
(4). Plus, all Americans will have inflation.
However!
If enough Americans are again fooled by republican lies, (as a lot have been in the past), into voting for republicans, then:
(1). All American people will have none of their freedoms, (Nos. 1-3), previously guaranteed by the Democrats’ defense of the American Constitution while maintaining their control of Congress.
AND
All Americans will still have the inflation exacerbated by the anti-democratic republican blockage of Democratic proposed relief legislation…
Joe Trippi has the argument for Democrats, David Pepper has the argument for Democrats to focus on state legislatures, and The States Project has the argument and HOW TO ACT for majority-making state legislatures (see Giving Circles):
Just when you think there can be nothing else outrageous in the bizarro world of Republicans... An acclaimed novelist couldn't conjure up this plot twist. And then to read Ellie's post below that there is no actual beating heartbeat at this stage of pregnancy.
I do wonder what the IRS will have to say about this tax deduction. Or does it just involve Georgia taxes?
Just Georgia taxes, as far as I can tell. Remember, part of that weird tax "reform" that the Trump admin passed took away the federal deduction for state taxes, so I don't think there's any interaction between the two.
Just posted in another thread, the the Unborn Child Support Act to amend the Social Security Act (wonder what the other Repubs who want to get rid of it have to say):
On a completely different note, Georgia's "Fetal Heartbeat" law went into effect this week, officially known by the rather tortured name, the "Living Infants Fairness and Equality (LIFE) Act." (Ga House Bill 481). On it's surface, it does several remarkable things, like according legal rights to a "person" as soon as a fetal heartbeat is detectable, usually around 6 weeks pregnancy, and makes it illegal to abort that fetus without a strong showing of evidence that the mother's life would be ended or majorly destroyed if the pregnancy were allowed to continue. (Mental health issues are excluded.)
Interestingly, the law specifically permits the unborn child to be used as a tax deduction, beginning with that heartbeat detection. There is no requirement that the pregnancy result in a live birth.
Hmm.
This means that a pregnant wealthy person in Georgia can simply get an ultrasound demonstrating a fetal heartbeat, fly to a more enlightened state for an abortion, then file for a tax deduction. The deduction would defray the cost of travel and, for even higher income brackets, may even pay for the procedure and result in a profit.
https://www.legis.ga.gov/api/legislation/document/20192020/184245
In other words, it's a perfect example of a Republican bill -- it gives tax money to rich people and reeks of hypocrisy! What's not to love? I'd love to hear what folks on this board think of this.
Any references to these laws' language of "detectable heartbeat" need to be called out to educate readers that the ultrasound is detecting not the beat of a functioning heart, but electrical impulses of not yet differentiated cells.
Furthermore, this developing group of cells is called an embryo, and in the 8th week of pregnancy, is called a fetus until birth.
https://www.livescience.com/65501-fetal-heartbeat-at-6-weeks-explained.html
Thanks Ellie for making this clear. These radical reactionaries pretend there is a heartbeat when there is no heart. They pretend that their sectarian religious/political beliefs about the timing of the beginning of life are objective science. They pretend an embryo is an infant. And then they have no interest in the living conditions of actual, living, breathing infants.
No, they don't. This is only a vote getting maneuver and then no votes for helping out the born human beings. And they wonder why many people find their "Christianity" so repulsive. I am still trying to find a reference to abortion in the NT. Ha...computer wanted to make this the NYT.
Michele
It seems your well-meaning description of who "...they..." are might be miss placed...
These republicans ARE NOT Christians
"they" do not possess a Holy Bible
but "they" are, themselves, possessed by the Great Deceiver
Christians are about Love
Love of all GOD's creations, even their enemy's, which is not always very easy to do...which one reason Christians pray for everyone to become the love of CHRIST to everyone.
I think you misread me. I have Christianity in quotes because the people I am talking about claim to be Christians, but they have not a whit of idea of what Christ taught. They are about hate, not love. This Sunday the River Church is bringing its hatred once again to Riverside Park here in Salem. They will be spewing their hatred all over downtown Salem. So I think we agree they are hypocrites. I do know some people who do understand and their faith provides a structure for their social views.
Michele:
Please forgive me for not realizing that you had Christianity in quotes, I apologize for my unintentional yet my actual oversight.
"I do know some people who do understand and their faith provides a structure for their social views."
And
now because of your strength of faith...I have also become one of those people who understands your love in CHRIST!
Thank you!!
Agree.
Pretend!?
NO WAY, Joan Friedman...
republicans
lie, lie, lie, and lie even more for evermore they LIE!
Thanks , Ellie, for this well-known biological, but little understood and/or accepted by right-wing politicians, fact. The gaping hole in US education and respect for it has widened into a bottomless pit.
Yes, and our ability to think and to stand up for ourselves declines as we lose the tools and the training for critical thinking.
The "gaping hole in US education" is not just happenstance, but direct targeting by reactionary Republicans taking from the playbook of autocracy. It's what Hitler and Putin have done.
A "heart" is not a well-developed organ until 20 weeks. By the Georgia definition, an earthworm has a "heart."
Zygote warriors don’t care
Thanks so that clarification, Ellie.
Bam. Thank you, Ellie.
🗽
Thank you, Ellie. I totally agree people need to understand this!!!
Absolute proof
republicans are
stupid
ignorant
uneducated
deceptive
cunning
evil
incredibly greedy
or
blatant liars
or
ALL OF THE ABOVE, AND THEN SOME, Eh!?
Sadly, medicine has nothing to do with it. The whole point here is to grind women into subservience. Women dying due to men’s superior power is not a bug in this system. It’s a central feature.
It actually shows what’s called the cardiac bundle, so it can look like a blip. The blood flow is the woman’s through the placenta.
Exactly. Thank You.
Citizen60
Wonderful information!
Thank you
Not a heart at that point.
Great analysis showing the poor analytical thinking behind the New GA law.
But, then again, Americans also believed that if we cut taxes on the rich, the government would reap higher tax receipts as a result.
Otherwise known as voodoo economics.
So. Any Republican bit of BS fed to Americans will be: lapped up like kittens lap up warm milk.
How anti-American can you get? You paint all Americans as the same. Many Americans know that they have been robbed by a system that favors the rich and we are trying to change that. Most Americans did not fall for 'voodoo' economics' and all white men are not the same, just as all Hispanic men, all Asian men, etc., aren't the same. Your slogan has been 'the problem with America is the Americans'. We are very divided and much of the deepening of that and the growth of hatred has been fueled by self-seeking autocrats. White supremacy has been a serious problem in America for centuries and not here alone. Scapegoating is a common form of manipulation/propaganda. There is a wealth of world history along these lines. It is a old story. We have a great deal to do in this country on many levels. 'The problem with America is the Americans' is to smear us all.
fHi, Fern and Mike, I'm going to jump in with a slightly different "read" of Mike's comment. I read his long comment not at all as anti-American, exactly the opposite. Maybe because it's my particular hobby horse. I read it as a challenge to his fellow Americans to examine our own part in the horror show that is our reality. I always end up referring to the 1971 Pogo cartoon, "We have met the enemy and he is us." I could be wrong, but my reaction to Mike's comment was a kind of, "YES!!" If Mike doesn't really mean all Americans--which it obviously can't be just realistically and literally--then I guess maybe my way of reading his comment is as a call to arms in the difficult work of digging out the darkness, not in each and every one of us necessarily but in the culture that we've all had a hand in creating even by doing nothing.
And I'm going to stop before I offend both of you. This exchange between you is important exactly to the extent that it makes us think. Thank you both
Dean Robertson,
Thanks for your response. Your response is much more intelligent and intelligible than my writing, no doubt.
It is true that I don't mean all Americans, however, there are more than enough Americans in the "enemy of Democracy" camp, and, have always been enough Americans in that camp, to prevent equal opportunity for all in work, voting, education, housing, land ownership, and a host of things I don't want to write.
I am an interesting product of America: Mexican Dad, White Anglo Mom (Red Head). They met, fell in love and married in 1959 when, in Texas, that was not acceptable.
They raised me unbiased against all people and showed kindness to all people themselves.
Since I am light skinned, I WAS accorded some opportunity in America, and was hired after engineering school. But, I went seven years without a raise in that job and, I felt, my work was often better than others.
Eventually, I concluded that the only people ever promoted were tall white guys, often as dumb as a stump, and I resigned.
Further, in my 38 year career as an engineer, I saw hundreds of poorly qualified whites get jobs, and, only THREE black engineers. ALL THREE suffered from comments of "affirmative action" even though they were much more highly qualified than most whites hired.
Also, MANY whites were hired by their parents because their grades were not good enough to be competitive. It was this observation that led me to conclude that affirmative action in America is reallyf or white men.
It is unfortunate that "affirmative action", mostly applied to white men, has been associated with the very few blacks that are hired, all of whom are highly qualified since there are NO parents working to hire them.
At any rate, my experiences in America are VERY different than the majority of those on this reflector with Dr. Richardson.
My comments reflect that and have angered folks.
Hence, I have resigned participation in the board. It was wasting too much time anyway.
Again, thanks for your more positive reading of my comments.
Mike
Mike, I'm going to argue with your statement that my writing is more intelligent and intelligible. Wow. You've said it exactly like it needs to be said--and needs to be said on every street corner in this country. Your story makes several things clear, starting with the fact that this isn't a Donald Trump problem so much as it is an America problem. We seem to be especially good at finding scapegoats and Trump is a master at doing that in the crudest and most blatant ways. He's about as awful as can be but the real monsters are the thinkers and planners and bankrollers of the status quo. As you say, "affirmative action in America is really for white men." I read something recently that got my attention--that the system in America isn't "broken." It's working exactly as it was designed to work.
Again, thank you for your comments.
Fern,
The problem with America is Americans is, well, like all one sentence statements, partly true.
It was Americans who voted for Donald Trump.
It is Americans that believe the 2020 election was/is stolen.
It was Americans who voted twice for Ronald Reagan and once for Richard Nixon and twice for W.
Using one sentence is both accurate and incomplete.
But. Using one sentence is useful. It states a truth in a way that is stark.
It got your attention.
The problem with America is Americans is indeed an accurate smear. One that Europeans have used for decades.
I try to scroll by your comments as quickly as possible as they appear to comprise a repetitive dumping ground to me. The few times that I stop to make a factual correction or share a perspective, you always respond with the same rational. I only hear one note. If you think focusing on a group and making an ugly generalization about the whole county based on that group states the 'truth' when it is prejudicial -- it's very easy for some to criticize others for lacking critical thinking.
Fern.
The good thing about diversity is we all think differently.
I think, quite honestly, that the problem with America is Americans.
Sure. HCR is an American. So is Barack Obama. But.
Those well educated, thoughtful people are outliers.
Thank you for responding, Mike S. Your comments have reflected what you think of the country and the American people. It is good that you are comfortable here and share your ideas. Many subscribers like what you have to say. I remember how we befriended each other when you began on the forum. This communication between us has been awkward, but I am leaving it with better understanding and warm regards for you. Salud.
Excellent point, Fern... thank you for pointing this out. Reducing us all to a unified group (grossly inaccurate!) under one label doesn't serve us. Certainly doesn't help us figure out viable solutions to our mess.
Thank you, Suz. I have waited months before responding to Mike S. with what I have thought about for quite awhile. Many have suffered greatly and continue to in this country. This may be the safe ground for some of us to unload long held grievances. All of us have been going through tough times in various ways. It felt as though it was time to address Mike S. directly about his generalizations and negativity. Unfortunately, we seem unable to find a bridge.
Oh!
Fern, Fern, Fern, Sheeesh, again Fern!
I have, yet again, waded through the coagulated muck of your cleverly snarky self-righteousness of your smug generalizations and self-proclaimed negativities, (in which you indeed revel in), in describing your judgments about others...
Who made you the judge, jury, and executioner herein, huh?
So, you have been sneaking around hiding in the weedy murky swamp of your pitiful jealousy just waiting for what you have determined is the best moment in time to pounce upon Mike, have you, Eh!?
Try to be nice, Eh!?
Just like me..........
Only some, you surely mean.
"Only some..."
Pat
Some of what?
In re to blanket statements that Americans lap up "voodoo economics'" et al. This American and others never fell for such faulty B.S. As stated in various posts, there are too many people either unwilling (lazy, incapable of seeing past their noses) or educationally unable (lacking critical thinking skills) to research behind such faulty statements/reasoning.
so, Pat, what is the point you are attempting to convey????
Mike
Please excuse my unintentional repetitiveness
However....
If Democrats actually expect to defeat even just one republican candidate, or incumbent, or republican sponsored legislation this November…
THEN
All Democrats
MUST
Begin to
FIGHT FIRE WITH EVEN BRIGHTER BURNING FIRE!!!
Here is a FACT to consider in direct refutation of republican lies:
Joe Trippi is a well-known benevolent Democrat strategist who has a wonderful podcast one of which is cited below. Here Trippi highlights the fact that when the enough concerned registered American voters vote for Democrats:
Then:
(1). All Americans will have their freedom of reproductive choice,
(2). All Americans will have their freedom to vote,
(3). All Americans will have their freedom to marry whom they want, and many other freedoms as well…
(4). Plus, all Americans will have inflation.
However!
If enough Americans are again fooled by republican lies, (as a lot have been in the past), into voting for republicans, then:
(1). All American people will have none of their freedoms, (Nos. 1-3), previously guaranteed by the Democrats’ defense of the American Constitution while maintaining their control of Congress.
AND
All Americans will still have the inflation exacerbated by the anti-democratic republican blockage of Democratic proposed relief legislation…
See:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/traditional-political-physics-need-not-apply/id1523896927?i=1000571526879
Does the bill indicate whether the unborn are to be counted at census time.
It tries. "[A]n unborn child, at any stage of development...shall be included in state population based determinations." (Lines 131-133) That probably wouldn't affect federal census, but would afffect anything the state government controls.
But they really don't know what it does. For instance, it should have an impact on child support determinations, in that a pregnant woman would be able to seek child support regardless of whether the pregnancy results in a live birth.
This is coming out on almost the same day that the Atlanta Music Midtown Festival, a long time public festival that showcased talent of all genres, was cancelled because, being held in a public park, the promoters learned that they would be unable to exclude firearms from the audience. Since no sane entertainer would be willing to stand on a stage under a spotlight in front of a crowd of armed Republicans, they had to cancel the whole thing.
Dick, This is better than I could have imagined. Do we have at least a year's worth of Saturday Night Live material?
SNL...get er onto U-Tube so I can watch it. I hope it's as entertaining as All in the family, was.
I'm waiting until Georgia decides all embryos and fetuses would cast a vote for their lives, thus their votes will count in a referendum opposing abortion.
I hope Stacy Abrams really goes into all this! That is incredible! Of course, this seems to be aimed particularly at wealthy women as I'm sad to say poorer women wouldn't benefit as much from the tax credit, or the ability to travel outside of the state. And probably wouldn't know about the census as politicians are so good at hiding some things from those who could really benefit.
The child support issues is going to be interesting to say the least...
Tax deductible college investments, claimed as a Dependent on taxes and increased EITC, Congressional districting—oh the places this will go!
Citizen60
Gerrymandering....
Lobbying....
Eeeek!
💔
Oh my. I can see this happening all over. The party of death strikes again.
Counted no doubt, as more than 5/8 of an adult voter for our Proprietors' purposes. Nevertheless, since said Proprietors' compassion seems to be reserved for their own successful spermatozoa, their overriding concern will remain unchanged: that neither the unborn, the children nor those who make it to adulthood should ever be entitled to a meaningful vote.
…all depending on which side of the color line.
Whoaaa.. what colour is that fetus anyway. Do test-tube embryos count?
The scams go on! It is breathtaking (and heartbreaking) that a law like this can even be considered. On so many levels, it is wrong, wrong, wrong. The fact that mental health issues are excluded is so completely revolting, I don’t even know what to say. Forget about the right to choose, the tax grift of this law is beyond everything I have seen. Thanks for educating us. Now, I need to go fix a stiff drink……
Yeh.. me too. When our imaginations result in science, adults will consider it as such. When imaginations dissolve into creationism, the adult factor goes away in favor the the book with no author. It's too late.. I'll just have some yogurt.
The "Living Infants Fairness and Equality (LIFE) Act." Will English language, law and medical dictionaries need to add a new entry to acknowledge Georgia’s newly contorted definition of “infant”? And if they do, what will be the implications to the term “fetus”?
A fetus is not viable person. Also, many women, and GIRLS, do not know they are even pregnant until they have missed a few periods, which for some can be so sporadic, they cannot chart them or do not even understand the normal 28 day cycle because they are too young. So, it is unfair to make laws based upon such cruelty to females. MEN are the ones who need to be challenged and responsible for every fricking, "sacred" sperm they produce. Or be responsible and start shooting blanks. Get the metaphor for guns, here? Hear?
We crossed the CT River today into New Hampshire to kayak and explore one of their many pristine lakes. What we heard, instead of the loons, was practicing shooting rapid fire guns that echoed all around the lake. It is incredibly disturbing and the birds looked distressed. It went on for at least 45 mins. and made looking for loons and beavers completely marred by "Live Free or Die" on what otherwise would have been a lovely, relaxing Sunday. Why is one person's rights allowed to disturb many other people's, animals and the sanctity of nature's rights in the middle of summer? I understand a few target practices, but the amount of ammunition used up was ridiculous besides traumatizing living in a world full of massacres.
The ME people. Is there a Noise Ordinance? Would a cop want to even endanger him or herself to enforce it?
Am hoping we can evolve to a point where those of us who want a peaceful world can ascend to some parallel universe and leave the others in their alt reality of let's power over everything and kill it. Then we can have safe music festivals, theaters, markets, attend churches or synagogues of our choice, go to school walk, and walk down the street freely, and without fear. And paddle on a beautiful lake without being reminded of self-absorbed supremacist politics, dark power, dark money and assault weapons. Loonier than real loons.
That is SO disturbing… I also want to express my outrage this week from an ad I got via email to buy assault rifles ….. it featured many different styles of weapons and had all kinds of patriotic marketing gimmicks. I was so outraged about it and to unsubscribe you had to put in all of your personal info and send them a response!!!! How in the heck could I have gotten on a mailing list like that? So disturbing and shows just how easy these guns are to obtain! 🤯
Check your privacy settings on your phone, tablet, computer, Facebook, Twitter, etc. If you have Alexa or Siri, check those also. Then report unwanted emails as spam.
I have started popping trash like this back in the mailbox with a "return to sender" message. I have no idea where it ends up but am hopeful the "sender" gets the message.
Good idea. My point was that the idea of privacy in terms of personal conversation in a room that has a phone in it is gone.
I sometimes look up organizations to find out about their bias. Then I get all sorts of religious crap, gun ads, and R ads. At least I think that's what happened.
Same for me.
I’ve not experienced that same thing butHAVE noted more and more marketing intrusions online following personal discussions of products or issues with friends. These discussions are either in real time and space or over the cell phone. Very creepy. Many friends have noticed as well. A friend in France has the same experience.very Big Brother. I first noticed this several years ago after a NYC subway ride discussing a pair of shoes a fellow passenger was wearing. When I surfaced out of the subway there was an e-mail( at that time more frequent) announcing a special sale for those shoes! Fit Flops. Since then( at least 8 years ago), these” coincidences have become MUch More frequent.
I have been in discussion as well with someone about a particular topic only to have it appear in my email. Yes. Big Brother and the algorithms are watching And Listening. Creepy.
Oh, gawd. That IS so disturbing. Gunmakers are responsible for this-- and we need to put huge pressure on them. These are weapons of mass destruction...not self-protection or hunting guns. They need loud voices screaming at them and to pay for every massacre that occurs in our country.
Meanwhile, I've just read the renter's manual at my humble apartment building which forbids smoking, candles, carts and wheelchairs left outside our apartments, etc.— all for the purpose of health and safety as our aging minds wander and are no longer so careful. BUT legally there can be no prohibition on gun possession because of law. Now there's a worry I wasn't counting on as I age.
Yep, and guns are not a problem in the hands of the ailing or possibly those with dementia.
This is so totally disturbing.
I agree! As if loons and other wildlife aren’t stressed enough.
This also happened to us when we were visiting a local park. Target practice across the river. This can also start fires.
You also raise an interesting point about the fluidity of state borders, like kayaking across an invisible state line and fascist Republicans trying to prevent pregnant women from leaving their state.
Wonder if the sperm donor has to start his child support then.
Does anyone know if that woman in Texas won her case, that her 8-month fetus should count as a passenger and allow her to use the multi-passenger highway lane?
So far, no. The highway driving laws apparently state it must be a person sitting in the passenger or back seat of the car.
So, fetus in the belly does not count.
Not in the driving laws. She should appeal on the disparity between the State’s law and driving law.
Brava!!
I laughed so long and hard that I started cough. Read your comment again … I've gotta get away from you.
No joke: the Unborn Child Support Act:
"The new bill, introduced on July 13 in both the Senate and House, is called the Unborn Child Support Act, and would amend the Social Security Act 'to give mothers the ability to receive child support payments while they are pregnant...' The bill would work by amending the Social Security Act, which requires states to manage a public child support system that oversees issues such as determining paternity and collecting child support.
Under the proposal, a court could award child support payments prior to birth and retroactively to the point of conception, as determined by a doctor, according to the statement. It also wouldn't require women to ask for child support if they don't want the prospective father's involvement. Paternity tests would be up to the prospective mother, according to the statement.
The bill is co-sponsored by a number of Republican lawmakers, including Senators Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee and Marco Rubio of Florida."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/child-support-from-conception-unborn-child-support-act-gop/
But of course, also no joke: West Virginia Republican who introduced a bill to get rid of child support so men won't pressure women into getting an abortion:
https://twitter.com/RexChapman/status/1553773183697829893?s=20&t=VoIcE3MAiASci2-TVuUt2g
"But of course, also no joke: West Virginia Republican who introduced a bill to get rid of child support so men won't pressure women into getting an abortion:"
Or murder her. It's no coincidence that men have murdered wives, girlfriends, and children more frequently since the advent of DNA testing for paternity. (I think it began in the Clinton administration as an accommodation to cutting back on welfare for women and children.)
Twilight zone stuff
Ahhhhh!! Love that!! Brilliant, Ally!
Dystopia.
The Disunited States of Dystopia.
As these GOPholks keep telling us (when wearing their Guncultists' persona with its armored 10 gallon hat and deaths-head rictus mask) there is a Big Mental Health Crisis in America...
They can say that again...
Politics as Psychosis.
Politician Psychopaths.
Invest in straitjackets.
Secure padded cells...
And our tortured, stressed, and feeble IRS is going to keep track of in utero fetuses now???
…easier than auditing the rich.
Good call, Fern!
Brava!
How many years can you include this imaginary "baby" on your taxes?
And who will claim the fetal deduction?? Birth parent or adoptive parent ??
....or rapist? blecch...sorry.
Sadly, your comment has validity as some of these laws seek to grant rights to a a rapist and family…
https://www.businessinsider.com/anti-abortion-laws-give-rapists-more-rights-than-pregnant-women-2022-5
Sadly, true.
LOL!
Just in case you missed my message located somewhere else in the plethora of all other comments....
If Democrats actually expect to defeat even just one republican candidate, or incumbent, or republican sponsored legislation this November…
THEN
All Democrats
MUST
Begin to
FIGHT FIRE WITH EVEN BRIGHTER BURNING FIRE!!!
Here is a FACT to consider in direct refutation of republican lies:
Joe Trippi is a well-known benevolent Democrat strategist who has a wonderful podcast one of which is cited below. Here Trippi highlights the fact that when the enough concerned registered American voters vote for Democrats:
Then:
(1). All Americans will have their freedom of reproductive choice,
(2). All Americans will have their freedom to vote,
(3). All Americans will have their freedom to marry whom they want, and many other freedoms as well…
(4). Plus, all Americans will have inflation.
However!
If enough Americans are again fooled by republican lies, (as a lot have been in the past), into voting for republicans, then:
(1). All American people will have none of their freedoms, (Nos. 1-3), previously guaranteed by the Democrats’ defense of the American Constitution while maintaining their control of Congress.
AND
All Americans will still have the inflation exacerbated by the anti-democratic republican blockage of Democratic proposed relief legislation…
See:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/traditional-political-physics-need-not-apply/id1523896927?i=1000571526879
Joe Trippi has the argument for Democrats, David Pepper has the argument for Democrats to focus on state legislatures, and The States Project has the argument and HOW TO ACT for majority-making state legislatures (see Giving Circles):
https://statesproject.org/why-states-matter/
Ellie Kona
WOW!
Thank you...
Lots more for me to study
Thank you
The wealthy will be able to subvert the system as usual. Yes, it reeks in every way possible. A tax deduction for electrical impulses....puke.
Really ? Why would any sentient Georgia woman do that ? I think we are all disappearing down some conspiratorial rabbit hole.
They are trying to disappear us as in the the past, except for three functions: domestic, sexual and procreation.
Just when you think there can be nothing else outrageous in the bizarro world of Republicans... An acclaimed novelist couldn't conjure up this plot twist. And then to read Ellie's post below that there is no actual beating heartbeat at this stage of pregnancy.
I do wonder what the IRS will have to say about this tax deduction. Or does it just involve Georgia taxes?
Just Georgia taxes, as far as I can tell. Remember, part of that weird tax "reform" that the Trump admin passed took away the federal deduction for state taxes, so I don't think there's any interaction between the two.
Thanks. That makes sense. I very painfully remember Trump taking away the deduction for state income taxes because ours are very high here in Oregon.
Just posted in another thread, the the Unborn Child Support Act to amend the Social Security Act (wonder what the other Repubs who want to get rid of it have to say):
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/child-support-from-conception-unborn-child-support-act-gop/
West Virginia Republican who introduced a bill to get rid of child support so men won't pressure women into getting an abortion:
https://twitter.com/RexChapman/status/1553773183697829893?s=20&t=VoIcE3MAiASci2-TVuUt2g
The “tax deduction” is a Georgia state tax deduction, not at federal level, right?
Correct. Perhaps they can rename the bill, the "Rich Person Abortion Reimbursement Act."
So does this mean that in cases of rape and incest the inseminator is awarded a tax credit?
Obviously, the people who wrote these laws haven't thought through the likely results. This is as icky as it gets.