How revealing it is to read the historical context for this decision, which is abominable. It makes a mockery of not just Arizona but the nation and what it’s become.
On the bright side, the decision makes it more likely that democracy will win in November.
How revealing it is to read the historical context for this decision, which is abominable. It makes a mockery of not just Arizona but the nation and what it’s become.
On the bright side, the decision makes it more likely that democracy will win in November.
Yes I agree. We had to take two steps back in order to take two steps forward in coming victory. I hasten to add that had we not lost Roe verses Wade, we might not have been able to win in November. And this point is pathetic.
The natural order of things is change - to improve for the better, not to regress but to progress … democrats - many, most, in general - are progressive by nature!
Then we must realize we are out to evolve our Democratic Party to become the worthy change-agent we need. That’s why I got involved. What the dem party WAS is not the Dem Party we need going forward to secure the changes We The People need. I have been encouraged by the actions we have taken.
This is good. My mantra has always been to move to the center because it’s the center that governs best, in my opinion. But my longtime observation is that we won’t make this move and political movements often suffer self-inflicted wounds. My contribution has been to rise a mirror to the shenanigans of TFG in book form and through my blog. We all contribute in our own way.
Great point. I sadly recall how I felt when there was no Blue wave in 2016. There is no excuse for that pathetic performance for which the country has been paying dearl;y and permitting SCOTUS to elect Dubya in 2000 cost us even more. We should never have lost those two major elections but Democrats found way to hand the country pover to horrible administrations.
To be philosophical, representative democracy is messy in general our version is particularly messy. Poorly written as we have come to witness. Example: 2nd amendment was never ever giving the people the right it gave organized militias or state guard but the NRA has successfully bastardized and twisted the meaning and well we know about Joseph Goebbels and his truth serum. So there is a decent change that Robert Kennedy Jr pulled off a Ralph Nader. And then I either become a radical militant and go down in a blaze of glory. Or I return to Europe when I once lived for two blessed years. Europeans are much more civilized than we are.
Then it becomes you to get involved and out from behind your keyboard and work hard to keep the Democratic Party from stepping on their own shoestrings.
What we have to hope for is that these atavistic, Talabanic and antediluvian laws and impulses by the MAGA/KKK supporters will cause a tsunami of votes crushing these inhumane laws.
Women who are unregistered? Given the horrific climate we have been living in for years now, to be unregistered is like accepting a wishbone to guide you instead of a backbone.
Made me chuckle , well put.Having worked in protective services and being a woman I know the second class status and how many women are under the thumb by their/the male family members/society at large. It’s far more than people think , but in the same breath …also a choice. It isn’t the males (except of color) losing ground. Says a lot. Always brings me back to..
I’ve signed up to attend the town hall with Field Team 6 on Wednesday, Apr 10, 2024. Are you free to join me? Use this link to sign up: https://mobilize.us/s/E5DAXt
There’s a sickness in America which seems to cling so much more to those people who tend to populate the wrong - conservative [or right] - side of the political aisle … and I hope that it’s not a byproduct of the Covid pandemic and the resulting lockdown ???
Why anyone would vote for a republican at this time is beyond me. I know we're pretty much all thinking that on a daily basis. But really, have they no sense at all? I listen to several never-trumper conservatives every week and I hear intelligent conservatives. We can work with them. But right now, there doesn't seem to be a brain cell between them in the current gop. If it wasn't for the harm they are doing to the rest of the country, it would just be funny. But even though I do laugh a lot, I am also very worried about our future. I think that a lot will be revealed when the the Nov. election is over and the dust has settled. I can hardly wait. In the meantime, I'm enjoying the good news about Biden's victories. I hope it keeps improving and the word gets out to the voters. Vote Blue and vote to reelect Biden. He's far from perfect, but which presidents were? Trump fell to "Worst President in US history" for many reasons. Why can't everyone see that?
The answer to your own question is observable if you allow it. The answer is “what the hell are w doing wrong?” Answer that question and you reach nirvana. Because this shit didn’t start out of thin air.
Obviously, I'm expressing frustration. I know I can only do what I can and then let go. I can't control the world, nor would I really want to. And I don't envy those who do. Even if we lost our democracy to d.t. and his minions, life would go on. It would nott be the end of the world. Not likely anyway. I'm not sure my life would even be directly impacted. But I do care about all the people who would suffer. And like most of us, I know a lot of people who would be harmed. Not to mention future generations. And I know this has been a long time in the making. I used to hear people say "Don't take democracy for granted." But I did. And that's possibly the gift donald gave us - he caused a whole lot of us to wake up and pay attention. And in reply to my last question, people see what they see for all kinds of reasons and we're all doing our best. But the self destruction is hard to watch.
I just saw John Bolton who said on MSNBC's Nicole Wallace that if trump won it would be catastrophic. She asked him who would he vote for and he said neither--that both candidates were unfit for the office and that he would do a write-in! It's Bolton who is dangerous--how can someone so influential spew about throwing votes away so that a dangerous ex would win??
He is an idiot. If he does a write-in that is like a vote for Trump. I think a lot of Republicans will do write-ins. They will be the blame for taking away our democracy. I believe Nicole was pretty upset with him after that statement!
I just attended a social security for expats webinar put on by Democrats Abroad. There are a huge number of reasons right there for everyone who is not a millionaire or billionaire to vote. Apparently most Republicans agree on this issue too. I learned a lot. When they send us a video of the session they suggested we share it, so I will do that.
looking forward to it ! I'm not sure I want to rip up my roots at the age of 77, but I'm also quite sure I don't want to live under a Fascist Theocracy, either.
Yet Biden has faced a lot of challenges during his time in office. Gaza, Israel, & Hamas along with border issues and inflation don’t make it easy. The Republicans welcoming Russian interference as well as Fox and other media are as much a threat to our democracy as is Trump and the Federalist Society.
We can take nothing for granted and get out the vote big time.
"We defer, as we are constitutionally obligated to do, to the legislature’s judgment, which is accountable to, and thus reflects, the mutable will of our citizens."
*The mutable will of our citizens.*
The recognition of mutability is a rebuke of the Federalist Society ouija board game of 'originalism'. In which jurists divine the spectral hand of Founders long dead now authorizing antidemocratic decisions.
The Founders' intent was to have their agreed legal framework for good governance facilitate progress towards their aspirational assertion of radical equality. By coming to consensus through reasoned debate of empirical evidence. Even providing the procedure by which we can amend the Constitution itself.
The Constitution - an ever evolving document that is alive and available for modification as the world changes around it. Not an iron clad impenetrable jumble of words from men 200+ years dead - who would be incredulous that their descendants wouldn't want to adjust to the times.
"Originalism" feels like a religious attitude. Something set in stone that doesn't age well. In fact, it becomes antique, irrelevant and potentially dangerous. Even religions evolve. They adapt or they are discarded.
"Originalism" feels like a religious attitude. Something set in stone that doesn't age well. . . Even religions evolve. They adapt or they are discarded."
Exactly. Originalism is a scheme without legal precedent or authority. Pushed by Catholic extremist Leonard Leo who must've taken a intro to literature class where someone mentioned 'author's intent' - a strategy long debunked by those involved in interpreting historic and literary texts - and decided to use it for his own political and mercenary purposes.
Yes, religious law is always in dispute by religious authorities. The extremists who claim it is fixed violate their own traditions. In Judaism as Hillel said "Don't do to others what you don't want done to yourself. The rest is commentary. Go study." Even the Sabbath liturgy includes a section on protocols for interpretation. But in extremist circles it's primarily rote memorization /repetition.
lin-, here in Southern Baptist Texas (and Oklahoma), all Southern Baptist children have Bible memorization competitions called Bible Drills. There are multiple levels of competition.
My favorite episode of The West Wing show the danger of rote application of ancient laws to today’s people.
Memorization is a good start. But only a start. When we moved from NYC to Carlinville, Illinois (where public school children were given Bibles and taken to an infamously antisemitic Oberammergau passion play) my partner, who taught Milton's Paradise Lost thought, at least they'll have a good grounding in the Bible. Nope. Back in NYC, at Fordham, he hoped the same of lock step parochial school students. No luck. The Jesuits would be ashamed.
lin-, I was raised on Teilhard de Chardin’s discussions of theology. My mom, who introduced me to them, once attended Oklahoma Baptist University, which required 2 religion classes for graduation (she was Catholic and St. Gregory’s university didn’t offer a Biology degree). After she converted the professor to Catholicism, the allowed her to take her second course at St. Gregory’s—the Jesuits would have been proud.
lin! -- Thanks for the link to one of my favorite (maybe my favorite) scenes in "West Wing". WW was and still is my favorite all-time television series. If you or anyone knows how it can be watched now, please advise. (But I'll investigate.)
One of my All-Time Favorites, too. Try Googling West Wing. There are lots of choices, some free like on youtube.
Also, try your local libraries. If they don't have it in their collection or via streaming, they should be able to get it for you on Inter-Library Loan.
There are DVD's of the series around, for purchase on amazon and on ebay - some fairly inexpensive.
Martin Sheen is a Dayton, OH guy and a big supporter of Sherrod Brown. I heard Brown tell a story on Lawrence O'Donnell's MSNBC program the night he won the Primary that Sheen was fired from his first job at a Dayton golf course for trying to unionize his fellow caddies. My kind of guy!
Originalism is only a ploy to gain or remain in power and control. If Scotus truly believes in originalism the Thomas couple's marriage would be nullified and they would be in jail. If you believe in originalism then the insurrectionist and his sycophants would receive the same treatment as Guy Fawkes. You would think originalism and controlling women are anachronisms but a reminder - more people of color (men in particular) are joining the Maga Party and white women by a slight majority voted Trump. You get what you vote for...until you no longer have a vote.
Putin is everywhere. We ignore the Ukraine connection to Gaza at our peril. Doesn’t anyone remember Stalin? Doesn’t anyone think of the Koch family fortune coming from work for both Hitler and Stalin in the 1930’s? Is MTG ready for the police state she is heading toward? Is she capable of reading “Moscow 1937”? Where are the photos of the Politburo in session that show bodies whose heads have been airbrushed off when the owner of the body was “eliminated” from the Politburo?
Yet……doesn’t the old law the AZ Supreme Court harken back to hold the key?: “Provided, that no physician shall be affected by the last clause of this section, who in the discharge of his professional duties deems it necessary to produce the miscarriage of any woman in order to save her life.” I repeat: “In order to SAVE HER LIFE”. Okay, that could encompass a lot of interpretation. Do not doctors performing abortions believe they are “Saving” the Woman’s Life? I could see that as YES. If a woman is forced to have an unwanted child it will indeed “kill her life”, mostly because it kills her choice to decide absolutely what happens to HER OWN body. It makes her NOT a free and equal member of society. Time for the ERA Amendment to pass.
What of the woman who looks in her doctor’s eyes and states “I will kill myself if I can’t have an abortion.” Is the doctor then to make the determination that this abortion will be done to save her life? What would the court have to say in this scenario? There are still no clear guidelines. and . . .
What/who in the world designates a woman as a second class citizen such that an amendment needs to be passed to make her “equal” to men?!?! (envision me shouting this question). I agree that this amendment needs to be passed ASAP, should have been passed eons ago, but its passage never should be necessary to make women “equal”. Indeed, IMHO women are actually superior to men in most ways.
And a forced pregnancy, in a situation where a woman knows she does not have the necessary resources to raise that child, results in a child growing up without their basic physical and emotional needs met. That child is at risk for dropping out of school and becoming involved in antisocial behaviors. That child becomes our future.
As we are hearing from physicians and patients across the country. The courts and legislatures have not provided any legal guidance or definition for identifying exactly when a woman is on the verge of death and so when an abortion becomes legal. Of course they can't, which is why it is very bad law.
I think I understand your point and there is no end of evidence to support it. And the hypocrisy. ie Jim Crow voter registration literacy tests. Registration is supposed to facilitate voting but White Supremacists used it to deny Black persons their constitutional right to equal representation.
But laws cannot be written so as to effectively legislate and adjudicate all existing circumstances, let alone potential circumstances. I think The Founders translated The Scientific Method into an agreed legal framework for good governance. The laws as hypotheses to be tested, observed, and revised. I think they were sincere in their aspirations.
I think the Republican Party has become entirely insincere. Since at least Newt Gingrich's emphasis on rhetoric unmoored from reality. And with the advent of such as Rand Paul and Taylor Greene, the party has become dangerously frivolous. Using the protocols of government, only to obstruct government.
Leonard Leo's Becket Law speech and William Barr's Notre Dame speech exemplify the fallacious rhetoric of American religious extremism. And the extremists working to repurpose a democratic republic as a clerical fascist state.
Lin, this is a good point, and I appreciate you making it. It is easy to fall into cynicism about the vagueness of rule making. A component of rule making is that the parties are intended to act in good faith. Yet humans fall into goalpost-moving behavior when they are not acting in good faith, but righteously insist they are. We, again, are in such a moment.
The solution is to pass better laws and not rely on the court. The Arizona legislature can and should fix the law. In the meantime, Arizona residents are already gearing up to pass a constitutional amendment to grant abortion freedom.
You cannot entirely separate the legislature and the judiciary. Whether state or federal the courts decide whether the laws passed by the legislature are constitutional.
It is my considered opinion that the matter of abortion should have never been made into a political medicine ball. What is happening today is topsy-turvy. And where it is today is where it will be fifty years from now. In the public sphere, we toss into the dust bin matters we don't like or that we determine to be too difficult to handle. And, they stay there. The bin isn't emptied and its contents smell to high-heaven. The movement of becoming a mostly secular society pushes aside the moral consequences of public law. Most of you will read as so much blather what I say next: "Take God, the Creator of life, out of the equation and we get what we are getting." A 'satisfactory' answer will never be found in the hallowed halls of the SCOTUS, the U. S. Congress, in State legislatures. Of course, all of this is my considered opinion!
“The Founders' intent was to have their agreed legal framework for good governance facilitate progress towards their aspirational assertion of radical equality. By coming to consensus through reasoned debate of empirical evidence. Even providing the procedure by which we can amend the Constitution itself.”
This is a beautifully stated, straightforward and clear statement of the essence of our constitution. It should be read out loud at the opening of every day in both houses of congress. It should be read out loud before the Justices at the opening of every day of decision-making. It should be incorporated into the oath of office taken by POTUS and every elected official.
To be fair, this wasn’t SCOTUS, but rather the Arizona Supreme Court. The SCOTUS Dobbs decision paved the way for the Arizona decision. But Arizona isn’t alone. In most of the Southern US, plus a swath of states in the center, abortion is now essentially illegal. And as we know, that has dire consequences for women’s health, especially for poor women for whom travel to another state to obtain health care is a very large barrier to access.
..there aren’t tests for how much one actually knows about the constitution or laws , I doubt I could pass it either if there was..two ways to look at this all for sure but mind control has always been and you’re absolutely correct. I just wonder if TFG wins how quickly if at all people will revolt or if they even can.
That 1864 AZ law sounds a lot like the current Republican Party platform. Some of those things are what the Trump supporters are threatening to do to the Capitol Police. Did the AZ court clarify which of the other provisions they restored — like the 10 year-old age of consent?
Yes , I agree. Because no woman in their right mind would allow a government to control her reproductive care. We will prevail because the majority of us in this country believe in Democracy.
I suspect, and hope that the 2 Justices up for reelection and any Republican not campaign against this tragedy are going to find out in November what the dog who finally caught and bit into the spinning tire on a moving car found out.
I thought I’d leave this here. Why doesn’t this surprise me?
Via @ daveryder on X/Twitter:
“Here's William Jones who authored the 1864 Arizona abortion bill.
Some fun facts:
He abandoned his first wife and their children in Missouri.
His second wife was a 12 year old Mexican girl. He abducted her and after a complaint submitted his resignation to President Buchanan before he was fired.
In 1864 (age 49) he married his 3rd wife, a 15 year old girl he abandoned in 1865 when he moved to Hawaii.
This is the guy who wrote the law that millions of Arizona women will be forced to obey.
His life is a series of grifts, and he was known for being a "pursuer of nubile females".”
I had thoughts about Republicans after hearing them talking about how they represent the “real America”, as those who started this country meant it to be.
To me, America is a Democracy (in progress) with an ever-growing process of immigrants coming in, starting small, and gradually moving upwards in the socioeconomic hierarchy, as we work towards a country that is better for all.
Then I read the following quote from a book by Ilona Andrews and thought about America’s core.
“A ‘better world’ bought by atrocities will be rotten at the core.”
It came to me that those Republicans were absolutely right. They DO represent the original Americans.
The original Americans were White men of European ancestry who lied, cheated, stole, and murdered countless indigenous peoples in order to have access to this land.
THEY are the rotten core of America. They felt then and now that “might makes right.”
The wealthy Aristos and wealthy upper class businessmen began the early “progress” by sending explorers, then chasing boatloads of people away from their homelands due to their unfair treatment of the poor and working class, and then eventually sending people to establish industries and create a railway across the country. They funded a supply chain of slave labor and used those slaves in horrific ways. They hired and abused Asian laborers. They used child labor. Also, unlike the spiritual practices of the indigenous peoples they destroyed, the “real Americans” Bibles made little mention of the natural world and of humans seeking harmony with it, and so nature too was conquered and destroyed by the progress of each generation of “real Americans”.
This is why William Jones seems so similar in nature to the people currently running the Republican Party. Jones, like others before him carry “rotten core of America” DNA. Since that DNA keeps finding success, it remains a part of us.
How revealing it is to read the historical context for this decision, which is abominable. It makes a mockery of not just Arizona but the nation and what it’s become.
On the bright side, the decision makes it more likely that democracy will win in November.
Yes I agree. We had to take two steps back in order to take two steps forward in coming victory. I hasten to add that had we not lost Roe verses Wade, we might not have been able to win in November. And this point is pathetic.
Millions of unregistered women nationally trend heavily Democratic. Register Democrats -- save Democracy.
https://www.fieldteam6.org/mission
The natural order of things is change - to improve for the better, not to regress but to progress … democrats - many, most, in general - are progressive by nature!
Oh really? Don’t get me started. We will find a way to gum this up somehow. The day is long.
Then we must realize we are out to evolve our Democratic Party to become the worthy change-agent we need. That’s why I got involved. What the dem party WAS is not the Dem Party we need going forward to secure the changes We The People need. I have been encouraged by the actions we have taken.
This is good. My mantra has always been to move to the center because it’s the center that governs best, in my opinion. But my longtime observation is that we won’t make this move and political movements often suffer self-inflicted wounds. My contribution has been to rise a mirror to the shenanigans of TFG in book form and through my blog. We all contribute in our own way.
Great point. I sadly recall how I felt when there was no Blue wave in 2016. There is no excuse for that pathetic performance for which the country has been paying dearl;y and permitting SCOTUS to elect Dubya in 2000 cost us even more. We should never have lost those two major elections but Democrats found way to hand the country pover to horrible administrations.
To be philosophical, representative democracy is messy in general our version is particularly messy. Poorly written as we have come to witness. Example: 2nd amendment was never ever giving the people the right it gave organized militias or state guard but the NRA has successfully bastardized and twisted the meaning and well we know about Joseph Goebbels and his truth serum. So there is a decent change that Robert Kennedy Jr pulled off a Ralph Nader. And then I either become a radical militant and go down in a blaze of glory. Or I return to Europe when I once lived for two blessed years. Europeans are much more civilized than we are.
Then it becomes you to get involved and out from behind your keyboard and work hard to keep the Democratic Party from stepping on their own shoestrings.
HA!
lol Bill !
What we have to hope for is that these atavistic, Talabanic and antediluvian laws and impulses by the MAGA/KKK supporters will cause a tsunami of votes crushing these inhumane laws.
@ Richard -- post on your Substack-- start the tsunami.
Women who are unregistered? Given the horrific climate we have been living in for years now, to be unregistered is like accepting a wishbone to guide you instead of a backbone.
Made me chuckle , well put.Having worked in protective services and being a woman I know the second class status and how many women are under the thumb by their/the male family members/society at large. It’s far more than people think , but in the same breath …also a choice. It isn’t the males (except of color) losing ground. Says a lot. Always brings me back to..
..so apparently ‘they’ are threatened somehow?
I just saw this on Joyce Vance. We travel the same circles, my friend.
Thanks. Spreading the word.
I’ve signed up to attend the town hall with Field Team 6 on Wednesday, Apr 10, 2024. Are you free to join me? Use this link to sign up: https://mobilize.us/s/E5DAXt
Not this one but I'll find one. Thanks
I have postcards ready to go
There’s a sickness in America which seems to cling so much more to those people who tend to populate the wrong - conservative [or right] - side of the political aisle … and I hope that it’s not a byproduct of the Covid pandemic and the resulting lockdown ???
Why anyone would vote for a republican at this time is beyond me. I know we're pretty much all thinking that on a daily basis. But really, have they no sense at all? I listen to several never-trumper conservatives every week and I hear intelligent conservatives. We can work with them. But right now, there doesn't seem to be a brain cell between them in the current gop. If it wasn't for the harm they are doing to the rest of the country, it would just be funny. But even though I do laugh a lot, I am also very worried about our future. I think that a lot will be revealed when the the Nov. election is over and the dust has settled. I can hardly wait. In the meantime, I'm enjoying the good news about Biden's victories. I hope it keeps improving and the word gets out to the voters. Vote Blue and vote to reelect Biden. He's far from perfect, but which presidents were? Trump fell to "Worst President in US history" for many reasons. Why can't everyone see that?
One problem is that he is telling them he was the best president ever......they believe that crap!
As mentioned earlier, trump was rated in the bottom 5 presidents.
The answer to your own question is observable if you allow it. The answer is “what the hell are w doing wrong?” Answer that question and you reach nirvana. Because this shit didn’t start out of thin air.
Obviously, I'm expressing frustration. I know I can only do what I can and then let go. I can't control the world, nor would I really want to. And I don't envy those who do. Even if we lost our democracy to d.t. and his minions, life would go on. It would nott be the end of the world. Not likely anyway. I'm not sure my life would even be directly impacted. But I do care about all the people who would suffer. And like most of us, I know a lot of people who would be harmed. Not to mention future generations. And I know this has been a long time in the making. I used to hear people say "Don't take democracy for granted." But I did. And that's possibly the gift donald gave us - he caused a whole lot of us to wake up and pay attention. And in reply to my last question, people see what they see for all kinds of reasons and we're all doing our best. But the self destruction is hard to watch.
I just saw John Bolton who said on MSNBC's Nicole Wallace that if trump won it would be catastrophic. She asked him who would he vote for and he said neither--that both candidates were unfit for the office and that he would do a write-in! It's Bolton who is dangerous--how can someone so influential spew about throwing votes away so that a dangerous ex would win??
He is an idiot. If he does a write-in that is like a vote for Trump. I think a lot of Republicans will do write-ins. They will be the blame for taking away our democracy. I believe Nicole was pretty upset with him after that statement!
🌻
I just attended a social security for expats webinar put on by Democrats Abroad. There are a huge number of reasons right there for everyone who is not a millionaire or billionaire to vote. Apparently most Republicans agree on this issue too. I learned a lot. When they send us a video of the session they suggested we share it, so I will do that.
looking forward to it ! I'm not sure I want to rip up my roots at the age of 77, but I'm also quite sure I don't want to live under a Fascist Theocracy, either.
Agreed.
Sacrifice
Yet Biden has faced a lot of challenges during his time in office. Gaza, Israel, & Hamas along with border issues and inflation don’t make it easy. The Republicans welcoming Russian interference as well as Fox and other media are as much a threat to our democracy as is Trump and the Federalist Society.
We can take nothing for granted and get out the vote big time.
"We defer, as we are constitutionally obligated to do, to the legislature’s judgment, which is accountable to, and thus reflects, the mutable will of our citizens."
*The mutable will of our citizens.*
The recognition of mutability is a rebuke of the Federalist Society ouija board game of 'originalism'. In which jurists divine the spectral hand of Founders long dead now authorizing antidemocratic decisions.
The Founders' intent was to have their agreed legal framework for good governance facilitate progress towards their aspirational assertion of radical equality. By coming to consensus through reasoned debate of empirical evidence. Even providing the procedure by which we can amend the Constitution itself.
Yes lin*!
The Constitution - an ever evolving document that is alive and available for modification as the world changes around it. Not an iron clad impenetrable jumble of words from men 200+ years dead - who would be incredulous that their descendants wouldn't want to adjust to the times.
"Originalism" feels like a religious attitude. Something set in stone that doesn't age well. In fact, it becomes antique, irrelevant and potentially dangerous. Even religions evolve. They adapt or they are discarded.
"Originalism" feels like a religious attitude. Something set in stone that doesn't age well. . . Even religions evolve. They adapt or they are discarded."
Exactly. Originalism is a scheme without legal precedent or authority. Pushed by Catholic extremist Leonard Leo who must've taken a intro to literature class where someone mentioned 'author's intent' - a strategy long debunked by those involved in interpreting historic and literary texts - and decided to use it for his own political and mercenary purposes.
Yes, religious law is always in dispute by religious authorities. The extremists who claim it is fixed violate their own traditions. In Judaism as Hillel said "Don't do to others what you don't want done to yourself. The rest is commentary. Go study." Even the Sabbath liturgy includes a section on protocols for interpretation. But in extremist circles it's primarily rote memorization /repetition.
lin-, here in Southern Baptist Texas (and Oklahoma), all Southern Baptist children have Bible memorization competitions called Bible Drills. There are multiple levels of competition.
My favorite episode of The West Wing show the danger of rote application of ancient laws to today’s people.
https://sbtexas.com/event/national-bible-drill-dallas/
https://youtu.be/S1-ip47WYWc?si=a08DpzDNRkJS784u
Memorization is a good start. But only a start. When we moved from NYC to Carlinville, Illinois (where public school children were given Bibles and taken to an infamously antisemitic Oberammergau passion play) my partner, who taught Milton's Paradise Lost thought, at least they'll have a good grounding in the Bible. Nope. Back in NYC, at Fordham, he hoped the same of lock step parochial school students. No luck. The Jesuits would be ashamed.
lin-, I was raised on Teilhard de Chardin’s discussions of theology. My mom, who introduced me to them, once attended Oklahoma Baptist University, which required 2 religion classes for graduation (she was Catholic and St. Gregory’s university didn’t offer a Biology degree). After she converted the professor to Catholicism, the allowed her to take her second course at St. Gregory’s—the Jesuits would have been proud.
lin! -- Thanks for the link to one of my favorite (maybe my favorite) scenes in "West Wing". WW was and still is my favorite all-time television series. If you or anyone knows how it can be watched now, please advise. (But I'll investigate.)
One of my All-Time Favorites, too. Try Googling West Wing. There are lots of choices, some free like on youtube.
Also, try your local libraries. If they don't have it in their collection or via streaming, they should be able to get it for you on Inter-Library Loan.
There are DVD's of the series around, for purchase on amazon and on ebay - some fairly inexpensive.
Martin Sheen is a Dayton, OH guy and a big supporter of Sherrod Brown. I heard Brown tell a story on Lawrence O'Donnell's MSNBC program the night he won the Primary that Sheen was fired from his first job at a Dayton golf course for trying to unionize his fellow caddies. My kind of guy!
The West Wing is on Prime Video, but regretfully not available for us in Canada to watch.
Originalism is only a ploy to gain or remain in power and control. If Scotus truly believes in originalism the Thomas couple's marriage would be nullified and they would be in jail. If you believe in originalism then the insurrectionist and his sycophants would receive the same treatment as Guy Fawkes. You would think originalism and controlling women are anachronisms but a reminder - more people of color (men in particular) are joining the Maga Party and white women by a slight majority voted Trump. You get what you vote for...until you no longer have a vote.
Thank you for the reminder of what a Trump vote means in addition to more Putin in Congress.
The Putin Maga alliance in the halls of congress is there for all to see, but unlike you, few choose to see it. Lemmings anyone?
Putin is everywhere. We ignore the Ukraine connection to Gaza at our peril. Doesn’t anyone remember Stalin? Doesn’t anyone think of the Koch family fortune coming from work for both Hitler and Stalin in the 1930’s? Is MTG ready for the police state she is heading toward? Is she capable of reading “Moscow 1937”? Where are the photos of the Politburo in session that show bodies whose heads have been airbrushed off when the owner of the body was “eliminated” from the Politburo?
Thank you, Steve. I am centered on Trump/Putin.
Well stated. Change with the times. What a strange idea. Anyone want to buy an AK 47?
Yet……doesn’t the old law the AZ Supreme Court harken back to hold the key?: “Provided, that no physician shall be affected by the last clause of this section, who in the discharge of his professional duties deems it necessary to produce the miscarriage of any woman in order to save her life.” I repeat: “In order to SAVE HER LIFE”. Okay, that could encompass a lot of interpretation. Do not doctors performing abortions believe they are “Saving” the Woman’s Life? I could see that as YES. If a woman is forced to have an unwanted child it will indeed “kill her life”, mostly because it kills her choice to decide absolutely what happens to HER OWN body. It makes her NOT a free and equal member of society. Time for the ERA Amendment to pass.
Two thoughts:
What of the woman who looks in her doctor’s eyes and states “I will kill myself if I can’t have an abortion.” Is the doctor then to make the determination that this abortion will be done to save her life? What would the court have to say in this scenario? There are still no clear guidelines. and . . .
What/who in the world designates a woman as a second class citizen such that an amendment needs to be passed to make her “equal” to men?!?! (envision me shouting this question). I agree that this amendment needs to be passed ASAP, should have been passed eons ago, but its passage never should be necessary to make women “equal”. Indeed, IMHO women are actually superior to men in most ways.
And a forced pregnancy, in a situation where a woman knows she does not have the necessary resources to raise that child, results in a child growing up without their basic physical and emotional needs met. That child is at risk for dropping out of school and becoming involved in antisocial behaviors. That child becomes our future.
As we are hearing from physicians and patients across the country. The courts and legislatures have not provided any legal guidance or definition for identifying exactly when a woman is on the verge of death and so when an abortion becomes legal. Of course they can't, which is why it is very bad law.
Lin…same for any of the other “exceptions” such as rape and incest…..too many barriers to “prove” the offense was committed.
Intentional vagueness to allow the goalpost to keep moving.
I think I understand your point and there is no end of evidence to support it. And the hypocrisy. ie Jim Crow voter registration literacy tests. Registration is supposed to facilitate voting but White Supremacists used it to deny Black persons their constitutional right to equal representation.
But laws cannot be written so as to effectively legislate and adjudicate all existing circumstances, let alone potential circumstances. I think The Founders translated The Scientific Method into an agreed legal framework for good governance. The laws as hypotheses to be tested, observed, and revised. I think they were sincere in their aspirations.
I think the Republican Party has become entirely insincere. Since at least Newt Gingrich's emphasis on rhetoric unmoored from reality. And with the advent of such as Rand Paul and Taylor Greene, the party has become dangerously frivolous. Using the protocols of government, only to obstruct government.
Leonard Leo's Becket Law speech and William Barr's Notre Dame speech exemplify the fallacious rhetoric of American religious extremism. And the extremists working to repurpose a democratic republic as a clerical fascist state.
https://www.becketlaw.org/leonard-leo-speech-2017-canterbury-medal-gala/
https://www.justice.gov/opa/speech/attorney-general-william-p-barr-delivers-remarks-law-school-and-de-nicola-center-ethics
Lin, this is a good point, and I appreciate you making it. It is easy to fall into cynicism about the vagueness of rule making. A component of rule making is that the parties are intended to act in good faith. Yet humans fall into goalpost-moving behavior when they are not acting in good faith, but righteously insist they are. We, again, are in such a moment.
The solution is to pass better laws and not rely on the court. The Arizona legislature can and should fix the law. In the meantime, Arizona residents are already gearing up to pass a constitutional amendment to grant abortion freedom.
The Arizona legislators should remove/kill the old 1864 law so it can never be used again.
Check Robert Hubbell today the AZ legislature recodified the law in the 1970’s
Thanks for this info. Much appreciated.
🤯🤯🤯
You cannot entirely separate the legislature and the judiciary. Whether state or federal the courts decide whether the laws passed by the legislature are constitutional.
That is great. However, the Arizona legislators must be voted out of office in November.
It is my considered opinion that the matter of abortion should have never been made into a political medicine ball. What is happening today is topsy-turvy. And where it is today is where it will be fifty years from now. In the public sphere, we toss into the dust bin matters we don't like or that we determine to be too difficult to handle. And, they stay there. The bin isn't emptied and its contents smell to high-heaven. The movement of becoming a mostly secular society pushes aside the moral consequences of public law. Most of you will read as so much blather what I say next: "Take God, the Creator of life, out of the equation and we get what we are getting." A 'satisfactory' answer will never be found in the hallowed halls of the SCOTUS, the U. S. Congress, in State legislatures. Of course, all of this is my considered opinion!
The moral consequences of public law dont depend on God.
Once again a prerequisite is a morally sound and well educated populace.
Lin- VERY eloquently parsed!
“The Founders' intent was to have their agreed legal framework for good governance facilitate progress towards their aspirational assertion of radical equality. By coming to consensus through reasoned debate of empirical evidence. Even providing the procedure by which we can amend the Constitution itself.”
This is a beautifully stated, straightforward and clear statement of the essence of our constitution. It should be read out loud at the opening of every day in both houses of congress. It should be read out loud before the Justices at the opening of every day of decision-making. It should be incorporated into the oath of office taken by POTUS and every elected official.
HaHa. Blush.
ThankYou.
I wonder if any SCOTUS members knew the context surrounding the 1864 Arizona law?
To be fair, this wasn’t SCOTUS, but rather the Arizona Supreme Court. The SCOTUS Dobbs decision paved the way for the Arizona decision. But Arizona isn’t alone. In most of the Southern US, plus a swath of states in the center, abortion is now essentially illegal. And as we know, that has dire consequences for women’s health, especially for poor women for whom travel to another state to obtain health care is a very large barrier to access.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/09/abortion-laws-by-state-where-abortions-are-illegal-00151228
I've come to view pro-life as essentially pro-rich. Anyone serious about reducing the incidence of abortion would advocate for universal health care.
https://yadontknow.blogspot.com/2018/09/the-judge.html
Among all the many other reasons to advocate for universal health care!
I would guess that someone researched old laws to cherry pick from.
Pretty sure 4 of the 6 that voted to overturn Roe are very much ok with the 1864 law
Only if we save it
I hope you’re correct. Far too many ‘representatives’ have been asleep at the wheel , it’s not just Az!
Maybe or...far too many 'representatives' are getting what they wanted - control and power.
..there aren’t tests for how much one actually knows about the constitution or laws , I doubt I could pass it either if there was..two ways to look at this all for sure but mind control has always been and you’re absolutely correct. I just wonder if TFG wins how quickly if at all people will revolt or if they even can.
I have family who think I’m the one brainwashed.
That 1864 AZ law sounds a lot like the current Republican Party platform. Some of those things are what the Trump supporters are threatening to do to the Capitol Police. Did the AZ court clarify which of the other provisions they restored — like the 10 year-old age of consent?
Yes , I agree. Because no woman in their right mind would allow a government to control her reproductive care. We will prevail because the majority of us in this country believe in Democracy.
I suspect, and hope that the 2 Justices up for reelection and any Republican not campaign against this tragedy are going to find out in November what the dog who finally caught and bit into the spinning tire on a moving car found out.
The current Governor of Arizona is a woman and a Democrat.
The Attorney General is also a woman who has said she will not prosecute doctors for doing abortions.
I heard the governor make that pledge. Will be fascinating to see how this plays out.
I sure hope so!
I sure hope so. I have a 10 year old daughter that thankfully lives in California.
Arizona turning blue from outrage, I would love that!
Reminds me again, of why I am so glad I live now and not then. Just another reason.
I thought I’d leave this here. Why doesn’t this surprise me?
Via @ daveryder on X/Twitter:
“Here's William Jones who authored the 1864 Arizona abortion bill.
Some fun facts:
He abandoned his first wife and their children in Missouri.
His second wife was a 12 year old Mexican girl. He abducted her and after a complaint submitted his resignation to President Buchanan before he was fired.
In 1864 (age 49) he married his 3rd wife, a 15 year old girl he abandoned in 1865 when he moved to Hawaii.
This is the guy who wrote the law that millions of Arizona women will be forced to obey.
His life is a series of grifts, and he was known for being a "pursuer of nubile females".”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Claude_Jones
Incredible. Was Jones related to Trump?
That wouldn’t surprise me either.
**Ramble Alert**
I had thoughts about Republicans after hearing them talking about how they represent the “real America”, as those who started this country meant it to be.
To me, America is a Democracy (in progress) with an ever-growing process of immigrants coming in, starting small, and gradually moving upwards in the socioeconomic hierarchy, as we work towards a country that is better for all.
Then I read the following quote from a book by Ilona Andrews and thought about America’s core.
“A ‘better world’ bought by atrocities will be rotten at the core.”
It came to me that those Republicans were absolutely right. They DO represent the original Americans.
The original Americans were White men of European ancestry who lied, cheated, stole, and murdered countless indigenous peoples in order to have access to this land.
THEY are the rotten core of America. They felt then and now that “might makes right.”
The wealthy Aristos and wealthy upper class businessmen began the early “progress” by sending explorers, then chasing boatloads of people away from their homelands due to their unfair treatment of the poor and working class, and then eventually sending people to establish industries and create a railway across the country. They funded a supply chain of slave labor and used those slaves in horrific ways. They hired and abused Asian laborers. They used child labor. Also, unlike the spiritual practices of the indigenous peoples they destroyed, the “real Americans” Bibles made little mention of the natural world and of humans seeking harmony with it, and so nature too was conquered and destroyed by the progress of each generation of “real Americans”.
This is why William Jones seems so similar in nature to the people currently running the Republican Party. Jones, like others before him carry “rotten core of America” DNA. Since that DNA keeps finding success, it remains a part of us.
One must hope that the latter conclusion is correct, Michael.